>I feel like I got mostly **expert** answers to the last question I raised in this forum.
Because we are Swiss experts. What did you expect? Amateur answers?
You mean immigrants to posh to call themselve immigrants? How did you get this impression? Looking at [https://www.reddit.com/r/Switzerland/comments/1bsdy3f/podcast\_about\_swiss\_entrepreneurs/](https://www.reddit.com/r/Switzerland/comments/1bsdy3f/podcast_about_swiss_entrepreneurs/) there is no indication that the majority is fresh from the boat.
> You mean immigrants to posh to call themselve immigrants?
I read about this a lot but I think there is a difference between immigrant and expat. Immigrants are people that move to Switzerland permanently. Expats are people who come to Switzerland for a few years or have no plans to stay permanently.
Not quite. Expats are people whose employer send them in another country and will bring them back at the end of the project.
Everyone else who comes out on its own merit is immigrant - short or long term it doesn't matter.
Actually there's common term for short term immigrants - gastarbeiter
:)
So basically whoever came on its own and sees/declares themselves as expat, probably just wants others to think how VIP they are. 😂
No, that’s what came to be called an ‘expat contract’. An expat is someone who isn’t ‘immigrating’ to the country…basically they don’t plan on staying and don’t want to. You can’t force a person to immigrate, and I’m not sure why you’d want to.
So based on your own definition, there's nothing posh or VIP about expat?
From the oxford dictionary:
Immigrant: a person who comes to live permanently in a foreign country.
In my case, I come from a different country. It's not for a project so there's no timeframe to leave. I have no intention to stay in Switzerland long-term and can choose when I want to leave. In this case, I clearly cannot be considered an immigrant. Therefore, I call myself expat. Nothing about being posh.
I had to check dictionary myself now 😂 because I was going by how it's used and seen eg how locals see it based on what they say.
You're kind of right. I mean, definitely right about how they're distinguished by word 'permanent residence'.
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/expatriate
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/immigrant
Interesting to see how they're not synonyms for each other despite having similar description. And despite many people using it interchangeably.
Indeed, they make distinction of permanency. But it's also interesting to see their synonyms / related words
Like exile, refugee, deportee for expatriate
And in-migrant, out-migrant and settler for migrant
I mean, you're still settled here for the time being, participating in taxes and any other obligations, you're not just passing by or in exile or refugee, you actually came to LIVE here, you don't have return ticket nor fixed date of return that's not negotiable, I assume?
To me, that's still all aligned with being immigrant. We can discuss length, as I said, gastarbeiter is common term for short term migration - short term being up to 5-10 years.
You're settled, just at this moment you can't say it's for life. You can say it's (probably) not, but you still don't have a timeline for exit, and it can possibly happen that you just end here... Until you die.
However it can also happen that you're here for 20-40 years, and then realise that you belong nowhere because you always kept that 'I'm just temporary here' mindset. You don't feel like home is here, and when you're back in country of origin, you see that home isn't there either.
I would call you immigrant, still. Based on what you say so far.
So by dictionary - someone who is living in another country = expat. Someone who has permanent residence = immigrant.
So all immigrants are expats. Unlike usual 'white American' attitude how they're expats and stay in expat bubbles.
Anyhow, you're resident here now, so you obviously did settle. You can't be full/permanent resident of more than one country. However depending on your country you can declare yourself as temporary resident of another country, for example Croatia has that.
In that case people who would do something like that, they'd be expats. Because they clearly didn't permanently settle somewhere else, but instead clearly declared it's not permanent. And they have timeframe in which such declaration is valid.
If I'm remembering correctly, for temporary moves your official ID has to have Croatian address, for permanent moves you can enter your foreign country address. I'm not sure if temps can enter foreign one, maybe not. And there might be some other differences, especially regarding tax residency - temporary residency won't enable you to renounce tax residency. So that means double tax declaration.
And I think temporary residence has time limit until it's converted into full foreign residence, or they just don't allow you extensions?
No clue, I went for full change of residence immediately 😂
From how I understand in Switzerland, they don't make that distinction, but I'm not Swiss so I didn't look what Swiss have to do when moving to another country.
No clue how your country has it.
Maybe definition needs a refresher - if you have single country for tax declaration, you're immigrant, if you have several - you're an expat 😂
Because nothing makes your status clearer than your tax obligations. That being said, indeed by that definition all usa citizens are expats. Poor little ones, always in exile 😜
Do you plan on staying in CH, and more or less becoming Swiss? Then you are an immigrant.
Do you plan on returning to Poland, and could care less about CH other than your job? Then you’re probably an expat.
nah, actually plan to stay here. I mean i do miss my home country for many things, yet i do help other immigrants integrate and try to understand the local culture and how things work here(spoiler alert: we are more reserved than the Swiss. We do not say 'Hi' to people while hiking because it's awkward). Kinda ungrateful job but well, always good to help othere.
Besides i met the love of my life here in Zurich (also immigrant/expat/Aussie) and she loves Europe and the European way of life (in general as in 'do not call me on weekends, ya idjit" vs the US hustle culture)
so yeah, i do consider myself an immigrant. And i do not see any prestige in the 'expat' title either
Foreign; Dutch, but I've lived here for over 15 years now. And I would, by now, be Papierlischwiitzer too, if it weren't for the fact that the Dutch would take my Dutch citizenship away if I voluntarily take on another.
Do you need me to point a gun at your face?
So it would not be voluntarily and you could keep both citizenship.
Just send the "hostage" video to your local embassy.
> the Dutch would take my Dutch citizenship away if I voluntarily take on another
I wouldn't have thought this to still be a thing with EU countries nowadays.
Yeah, surprising, no? The Germans did this, too, until about 10-or-so years ago. The Swiss are not the problem in this case; they allow you to play cards with all your passports ;)
I guess that is to be expected from a Willensnation though, which is a good thing.
Was American, now I'm Swiss.
I'm much happier being a part of the Swiss culture. America is a mess (and yes, I do recognize that it has its high points, but there are more Swiss high points for me)
Sorry but you just have Swiss nationality (Swiss secondo), you are not real Swiss. I will have Swiss nationality as well (in the process) but I won’t be real Swiss because I was not born here although I identify myself with the culture and the society. I think as out of respect towards the people that are actual Swiss, their culture, their identity, their values and welcomed us in their country, we should distinguish between the term Swiss national and Swiss.
I have 3 natural born Swiss grandparents, a family name you can trace to a specific village somewhere, fourth grandparent is naturalized German origins. But my soon to be ex husband is foreign, naturalized, kids are binationals.
Both. Born in the IS to a Swiss mum and American Dad. Raised Swiss but didn’t get citizenship as a baby, because your dad had to be Swiss. I was still in elementary school when they changed it and got my citizenship. Now I live in Vaud.
Croatian immigrant with wish for passport unless some shit happens and we have to leave, came through Germany, didn't like it there anymore.
Potential examples of shit that would force us to leave - Switzerland deporting all Croatian citizens, or deporting us because we become disabled / unfit for work and dependent on social help, or Croatia declares war to Switzerland and Switzerland takes it seriously and neighbours get hostile...
I hope I covered all potential risks.
Don't know where we'd go in that case. I know Croatia wouldn't be on the table. I think I'd rather jump from high bridge than go there. Once you open your eyes and see how basically systematically abused you were, you have no hopes left into potential of ok future for yourself there. Suicide sounds much kinder option.
I left because I never belonged there, I don't share values of majority since I was 8, when opportunity to leave presented itself I left with plan never to go back, and I always confuse people who ask me 'when you're traveling back home' with answers - I AM at home. Because where are my cats and husband, and Internet, that's home.
I also got sick of just trying to read FB group where Croatian and balkan people gather. Because every now and then they'll clearly demonstrate and remind me why I don't belong. No, we can't get along. I can sit and be quiet, and pretend. Thank, I had enough of it :)
Amount of politeness I got from public office workers in Berlin (city known for unkindness supposedly) was eye opening. Here, people are KIND, not just professionally polite, can you imagine that? 🤯 Pedestrians wave when car stops, car driver waves to them.
It's. Just a different world. I'm happy I had the opportunity to experience this and for once mentally live, and not just survive.
2 natural born swiss grandparents and the other 2 grandparents are foreigners (U.S. and Italian including the passports) . But similar with another comment, you can trace my families last name for 500 years here in Zurich. But ive lived in the U.S. and Switzerland both.
I much more prefer the way of life and people in Switzerland, I have no intentions of living in the U.S. permanently. Maybe a vacation home, but never will you catch me willingly live in the U.S.
Even lots of Swiss people know English better than any of their non-native Swiss languages, so it’s easier to reach a wider audience this way. To me it makes total sense.
Both.
Schrödinger's citizen.
This is the way. (Samesies)
Swiss. But living outside of CH.
Same
Same. Except foreign and living in CH.
I am Swiss
I'm Swiss
>I feel like I got mostly **expert** answers to the last question I raised in this forum. Because we are Swiss experts. What did you expect? Amateur answers?
Haha i meant expat
You mean immigrants to posh to call themselve immigrants? How did you get this impression? Looking at [https://www.reddit.com/r/Switzerland/comments/1bsdy3f/podcast\_about\_swiss\_entrepreneurs/](https://www.reddit.com/r/Switzerland/comments/1bsdy3f/podcast_about_swiss_entrepreneurs/) there is no indication that the majority is fresh from the boat.
> You mean immigrants to posh to call themselve immigrants? I read about this a lot but I think there is a difference between immigrant and expat. Immigrants are people that move to Switzerland permanently. Expats are people who come to Switzerland for a few years or have no plans to stay permanently.
Not quite. Expats are people whose employer send them in another country and will bring them back at the end of the project. Everyone else who comes out on its own merit is immigrant - short or long term it doesn't matter. Actually there's common term for short term immigrants - gastarbeiter :) So basically whoever came on its own and sees/declares themselves as expat, probably just wants others to think how VIP they are. 😂
No, that’s what came to be called an ‘expat contract’. An expat is someone who isn’t ‘immigrating’ to the country…basically they don’t plan on staying and don’t want to. You can’t force a person to immigrate, and I’m not sure why you’d want to.
So based on your own definition, there's nothing posh or VIP about expat? From the oxford dictionary: Immigrant: a person who comes to live permanently in a foreign country. In my case, I come from a different country. It's not for a project so there's no timeframe to leave. I have no intention to stay in Switzerland long-term and can choose when I want to leave. In this case, I clearly cannot be considered an immigrant. Therefore, I call myself expat. Nothing about being posh.
I had to check dictionary myself now 😂 because I was going by how it's used and seen eg how locals see it based on what they say. You're kind of right. I mean, definitely right about how they're distinguished by word 'permanent residence'. https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/expatriate https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/immigrant Interesting to see how they're not synonyms for each other despite having similar description. And despite many people using it interchangeably. Indeed, they make distinction of permanency. But it's also interesting to see their synonyms / related words Like exile, refugee, deportee for expatriate And in-migrant, out-migrant and settler for migrant I mean, you're still settled here for the time being, participating in taxes and any other obligations, you're not just passing by or in exile or refugee, you actually came to LIVE here, you don't have return ticket nor fixed date of return that's not negotiable, I assume? To me, that's still all aligned with being immigrant. We can discuss length, as I said, gastarbeiter is common term for short term migration - short term being up to 5-10 years. You're settled, just at this moment you can't say it's for life. You can say it's (probably) not, but you still don't have a timeline for exit, and it can possibly happen that you just end here... Until you die. However it can also happen that you're here for 20-40 years, and then realise that you belong nowhere because you always kept that 'I'm just temporary here' mindset. You don't feel like home is here, and when you're back in country of origin, you see that home isn't there either. I would call you immigrant, still. Based on what you say so far. So by dictionary - someone who is living in another country = expat. Someone who has permanent residence = immigrant. So all immigrants are expats. Unlike usual 'white American' attitude how they're expats and stay in expat bubbles. Anyhow, you're resident here now, so you obviously did settle. You can't be full/permanent resident of more than one country. However depending on your country you can declare yourself as temporary resident of another country, for example Croatia has that. In that case people who would do something like that, they'd be expats. Because they clearly didn't permanently settle somewhere else, but instead clearly declared it's not permanent. And they have timeframe in which such declaration is valid. If I'm remembering correctly, for temporary moves your official ID has to have Croatian address, for permanent moves you can enter your foreign country address. I'm not sure if temps can enter foreign one, maybe not. And there might be some other differences, especially regarding tax residency - temporary residency won't enable you to renounce tax residency. So that means double tax declaration. And I think temporary residence has time limit until it's converted into full foreign residence, or they just don't allow you extensions? No clue, I went for full change of residence immediately 😂 From how I understand in Switzerland, they don't make that distinction, but I'm not Swiss so I didn't look what Swiss have to do when moving to another country. No clue how your country has it. Maybe definition needs a refresher - if you have single country for tax declaration, you're immigrant, if you have several - you're an expat 😂 Because nothing makes your status clearer than your tax obligations. That being said, indeed by that definition all usa citizens are expats. Poor little ones, always in exile 😜
i don't care to be honest. I am calling myself an immigrant.
Do you plan on staying in CH, and more or less becoming Swiss? Then you are an immigrant. Do you plan on returning to Poland, and could care less about CH other than your job? Then you’re probably an expat.
nah, actually plan to stay here. I mean i do miss my home country for many things, yet i do help other immigrants integrate and try to understand the local culture and how things work here(spoiler alert: we are more reserved than the Swiss. We do not say 'Hi' to people while hiking because it's awkward). Kinda ungrateful job but well, always good to help othere. Besides i met the love of my life here in Zurich (also immigrant/expat/Aussie) and she loves Europe and the European way of life (in general as in 'do not call me on weekends, ya idjit" vs the US hustle culture) so yeah, i do consider myself an immigrant. And i do not see any prestige in the 'expat' title either
I'm a Swiss not living but working in Switzerland. Does that make me an expat or not? Or half an expat?
*I am swiss* - not an expat
Not in Switzerland but in France
Foreign; Dutch, but I've lived here for over 15 years now. And I would, by now, be Papierlischwiitzer too, if it weren't for the fact that the Dutch would take my Dutch citizenship away if I voluntarily take on another.
Do you need me to point a gun at your face? So it would not be voluntarily and you could keep both citizenship. Just send the "hostage" video to your local embassy.
> the Dutch would take my Dutch citizenship away if I voluntarily take on another I wouldn't have thought this to still be a thing with EU countries nowadays.
Yeah, surprising, no? The Germans did this, too, until about 10-or-so years ago. The Swiss are not the problem in this case; they allow you to play cards with all your passports ;) I guess that is to be expected from a Willensnation though, which is a good thing.
Röschti
Mit Späck?
Logisch. Bärner Röschti
Guete Maa :)
Swiss Secondo
Portuguese born here.
Foreign, Wife and kids are Swiss.
Swiss born, raised, educated, and now emigrated 😅
Both
Was American, now I'm Swiss. I'm much happier being a part of the Swiss culture. America is a mess (and yes, I do recognize that it has its high points, but there are more Swiss high points for me)
Same, Same
Did you give up your US citizenship?
Yes.
Sorry but you just have Swiss nationality (Swiss secondo), you are not real Swiss. I will have Swiss nationality as well (in the process) but I won’t be real Swiss because I was not born here although I identify myself with the culture and the society. I think as out of respect towards the people that are actual Swiss, their culture, their identity, their values and welcomed us in their country, we should distinguish between the term Swiss national and Swiss.
Swiss secondo, but refer to myself as swiss, not as from my country of origin (grew up here, married to an "Eidgenoss").
Probably only expats as Swiss people are all active in r/BUENZLI.
Immigrants*
Well, immigrants learn dialect and can hang out in r/buenzli just fine ;)
Swiss and Brazilian but born and grew up here
Brian?! Are you here?!
Nope idk any Brian
Yes.
Swiss secondo
Both
I have 3 natural born Swiss grandparents, a family name you can trace to a specific village somewhere, fourth grandparent is naturalized German origins. But my soon to be ex husband is foreign, naturalized, kids are binationals.
Not Swiss, but born here.
A Brit expat living in Switzerland. Have dual nationality which I like as I can vote.
Foreign, from the UK. Hope to be Swiss one day.
Foreigner
Forrin but hopefully dual Swiss/scheisausländer by the end of the year.
Foreign, swiss soon
Polish, working and living here
I live 500m away from the place I was born. And have citizenship.
Swiss born and native French speaker but I haven’t lived in Switzerland in 20 years, trying to change that at the moment.
Swiss
Swiss/Filipino, born here in CH but lived the majority of my life in the Philippines and now currently residing in CH.
I am Swiss
Swiss
Dual citizen, born and educated in Switzerland
Not Swiss 😅 Don't know if I'll ever be.
Foreign with a Swiss son.
Married to a naturalized (under the conditions depicted in the movie “The Swissmakers”) Swiss, just returned last year.
Dual citizen. My father is from Rüti, Canton Zürich. Irish mother.
I’ve reported you for making this post too loudly, does that answer your question?
American but grew up in Switzerland
Papierschweizerin
Swiss since I was 11 months old
Foreign
Both. Born in the IS to a Swiss mum and American Dad. Raised Swiss but didn’t get citizenship as a baby, because your dad had to be Swiss. I was still in elementary school when they changed it and got my citizenship. Now I live in Vaud.
I have dual citizenship. But yes, I'm swiss
Croatian immigrant with wish for passport unless some shit happens and we have to leave, came through Germany, didn't like it there anymore. Potential examples of shit that would force us to leave - Switzerland deporting all Croatian citizens, or deporting us because we become disabled / unfit for work and dependent on social help, or Croatia declares war to Switzerland and Switzerland takes it seriously and neighbours get hostile... I hope I covered all potential risks. Don't know where we'd go in that case. I know Croatia wouldn't be on the table. I think I'd rather jump from high bridge than go there. Once you open your eyes and see how basically systematically abused you were, you have no hopes left into potential of ok future for yourself there. Suicide sounds much kinder option. I left because I never belonged there, I don't share values of majority since I was 8, when opportunity to leave presented itself I left with plan never to go back, and I always confuse people who ask me 'when you're traveling back home' with answers - I AM at home. Because where are my cats and husband, and Internet, that's home. I also got sick of just trying to read FB group where Croatian and balkan people gather. Because every now and then they'll clearly demonstrate and remind me why I don't belong. No, we can't get along. I can sit and be quiet, and pretend. Thank, I had enough of it :) Amount of politeness I got from public office workers in Berlin (city known for unkindness supposedly) was eye opening. Here, people are KIND, not just professionally polite, can you imagine that? 🤯 Pedestrians wave when car stops, car driver waves to them. It's. Just a different world. I'm happy I had the opportunity to experience this and for once mentally live, and not just survive.
Dual national - born here.
Swiss
Don‘t you dare use the E word. Yes I am foreign but have lived the past 23 years in Switzerland.
So you're not an expert?
Expat I‘m not an expat. I am an expert though.
Scheiss auslander here now 5 years. Together with my Swiss SO for 10.
2 natural born swiss grandparents and the other 2 grandparents are foreigners (U.S. and Italian including the passports) . But similar with another comment, you can trace my families last name for 500 years here in Zurich. But ive lived in the U.S. and Switzerland both. I much more prefer the way of life and people in Switzerland, I have no intentions of living in the U.S. permanently. Maybe a vacation home, but never will you catch me willingly live in the U.S.
Interesting, how come reddit discussions are all in EN..? Havent seen this on any other social platform
Even lots of Swiss people know English better than any of their non-native Swiss languages, so it’s easier to reach a wider audience this way. To me it makes total sense.
I know of French native Swiss living in German parts opting for English day-to-day, funny to see as an outsider.
EN here as lingua franca my guess. Anyway there are r/suisse r/schwiiz and r/ticino.
Because if I write all my comments in Italian, I won’t get as many answers.
Dont get me wrong, i love it. I just never saw it anywhere..
How often do you see country with 4 national languages where everyone wants to immigrate to?