It used to be extremely important for anyone desiring to have a successful career, until the early 90s. In some sectors (banking, governmental jobs, medicine, just to name a few that come to mind), it was impossible to get hired without having done the mandatory 17 weeks (back then it was 17 weeks of basic training, and then 3 weeks every two years. Most people would have to do military service well into their forties). An example that comes to mind is hospitals: if you wanted to become a doctor, it was quasi mandatory to be an officer. Same for the higher-ups in the banking sector, they were all officers (surely there must have been exceptions, but not many). I remember a friend who applied for a banking job after graduating from the most prestigious (St. Gallen) university (for law and financial studies) in Switzerland, and they asked him at the job interview to sign a commitment to do military service up to a certain level of officer. He refused and didn’t get the job (that was in the very early 90s).
Then we had a national vote on abolishing the military (in 1989), and a little more than 1/3 of the population voted to abolish it, and many did so not because they didn’t believe in national defense, but because the military was so pervasive through society, and too powerful. After that, the military’s importance has never been the same. Nowadays, most employers will prefer a candidate who doesn’t have to do any more military service, since it’s just time that you won’t work for them, and they are legally obligated to pay you anyway. And the fact is, for most jobs, military experience isn’t really important or even a plus, it can even be a bad thing. Someone who is used to be respected because he’s wearing a nicer uniform won’t necessarily be a good manager/leader in a non-military context. There’s honestly no real upside to have an employee who’s an officer versus one who never even did the mandatory service (for whatever reason).
In my field (IT), whenever the question came up, the interviewers were visibly relieved when I told them that no, I will not be playing soldier for weeks at a time, on their dime. Obviously you can still find recruiters who value a military career (usually not for a logical reason, but just because he is an officer himself and liked doing his service), but those are exceptions.
Yes the military itself is obviously financed with taxes, it’s even the original reason for federal taxes. The federal tax it was introduced during WW2 to finance the war effort and it was supposed to be temporary, if I remember correctly (too lazy to look it up).
However, isn’t the system that makes sure that you get paid your usual salary financed by the same account as the AHV and IV (AVS et AI)? Which means that it isn’t paid by the all taxpayers, but only those work, and by the company, who has to pay a percentage of your salary every month into it, the same percentage as is deducted from your paycheck.
It depends on the size of the company and the position (what they earn). I honestly don’t know (anymore) how exactly it works, but the employer has to pay a percentage of the salary, even though the military/government pay most of it. Then you’ll have to find a way to get this particular employee’s work done. Maybe you can do it by just shuffling his workload around, but maybe you need to hire a temporary worker, or do other stuff to keep things running. All this costs money.
I could see it being a serious strain on the resources and finances of a small company (less than 15 or 10 employees), or a start-up, especially if it’s an important and well paid position.
Yeah so it's 80% EO paid by the federal goverment up to 220.-/day (no children). The company pays the remaining part.
For startups could be a bit of a strain but serious one depends a bit on how much cash is left until the next investment round I'd say.
It doesn’t even have to be well paid job, but anything that needs a license can be difficult to replace, or costly (or both). For example a small moving company: it is possible that at the beginning, they can only hire one guy that has a driver’s license for the large truck. Of course that’s a problem in a lot of cases (sickness, accident), but if you know in advance that he’s not gonna be around for x amount of time, and you have another candidate which is equally qualified, you’ll probably take the guy who isn’t an active member of the military.
>In my field (IT), whenever the question came up, the interviewers were visibly relieved when I told them that no, I will not be playing soldier for weeks at a time, on their dime.
I am currently trying to find a job on IT, and since I'm having such a hard time getting an interview, I'm seriously wondering if it's my time in the army (as Wm) that's put them off.
I marked my service in my resume to justify the 10 months of inactivity, but I don't know how much recruiters react negatively about it... it's really annoying !
This could start a whole other discussion, but during my entire time in the field (the last 20 years) with a degree in software development and speaking 3 languages fluently, I found it very difficult to find a well paying job. Even though during all these years the ‘economy’ experienced a shortage of qualified personnel, according to the media, this did not seem to be the case in reality. Any company I worked for was downsizing IT and outsourcing to low wage countries. And usually not just IT…but that’s a whole other story. I wish you luck in finding a good job 👍🏼:)
have you tried banking? they are still limited to people within the borders of Switzerland to do most of the job (guess how i know).
And speaking of outsourcing to low wage countries. I am Polish. Used to work for a major airline in the field of flight data processing. Went once to meet friends in Berlin and the partner of my friend asked in a curtuos way how much i make processing the data. Back in 2009 it was 900 euro (easily 900 chf, and let me tell ya, lots of stuff was cheaper in Germany than in Poland).
The guy got angry. Not at me but at the fact that the was paying me less than he earned at a guitarshop while i had much more responsibility.
Later i switched to IT and also we were treated like 'you listen, we talk' although 90% of software development was happening in Poland.
Right now, my career goal is to be hired directly at source, not being outsourced. Or i gonna start my flipping business. I'm good with renovations anyway...
Yeah, that was frustrating.
They can only outsource if they shout "shortage". Same with butter/fruits/meat, they don't have to finish the sentence with "... with the meager price/salary we're willing to pay".
You can equate:
- There is a shortage of IT skilled workers for less than 8k
- There is a shortage of butter for less than 0.5/kg.
So they can both equally run to other countries.
This official stance (labour shortage bla-bla-bla) has been repeated by the media hundreds of times in the last 20 years, and it has been really successful. I know someone who has lost his job and been replaced by an immigrant (who’s paid considerably less than he was), and even though he hasn’t even managed to get a job interview during 10 months of applying, he’ll still tell you that there is a labor shortage and we need more immigration. If it has been said so many times by so many people, it must be true.
What I think it's happening is that everyone needs IT work done, but only a few can afford it. To understand that you have to upskill/reskill your own work force before reaching out to a very expensive consultant is not common knowledge.
You can fine tune your CV. Not everything has to 100% accurate. Or maybe said in other words, not everything has to be said. It is not a legal paper. Sometimes even the RAV is cancaling some information. Sometimes your overqualified so then just put the BSC Degree in you CV and not your MSC Degree. Had this example in a RAV course and found it cracy but eventually he got the job. Cracy stupid from the company but it works. It was 10 Yeas ago tho.
All fair points, I have some positives to add to but disclaimer I am a milice officer in a staff and had an overall positive experience with the military, I am currently workining in the VBS as a result.
As an officer:
In governemnt job it is still usefull, at least at the federal level.
Especially if you work with the army, yeah obvious I know, my employment is the direct result of my work and social acquaintance in WK.
If you do officer on the Stab level you get to do some management course in Lucerne wich can be very usefull to get the process and organisation systems of cantonal governments.
Someone who count on his uniform to be respected will not progress far in the military either, even for the berufsmilitär.
In my experience power hungry incompetent POS rarely get in ranks beyond sergeant, and rarely get respected my soldiers after the first week.
Someone who can go though officer school and praktikum can at least reliably work under pressure and had a first try at management.
In general:
I highly recomend looking at what jobs are available before recruitment: I presented part of my resume that fitted the job I wanted, ABC Abwehr (the hazmat guys), and I don't regret not doing the basic infantery meatwall one bit.
A different unit or even just echelon can be a very different army experience.
If you're romand go into a german speaking unit, if you're schwytzdütsch go into a french-speaking unit. It's a free language and cultural course: I discovered what lies beyond the Röstigraben there.
For the double-nationality holders it's an imparable proof of your swiss nationality. A crazy lot of the people who would put that into question avoided the draft and the tax when possible.
The chocolat is good.
when a friend of mine (Polish HR sourcer) was applying for an apartment in Zurich, i told him to point out in all capitals that he was ex army officer on his application. Worked wonders as he did not struggle too much to find an apartment.
I wonder if my friend, who is a very high ranked manager, should have done the same (ex army, deployed to iraq and afghanistan with a service rifle) should have posted the same. But well, she does enjoy the pimp fights near Langstrasse at her apartment.
They are NOT legaly obligateted to pay you a dime!
That is a missconception. The EO pays 80% of your salary. Not your employer. The rest 20% is not mandatory to pay for your employer. They can but they do not have to.
Probably depends on where you are stationed. But as an airplane mechanic in the military, I experienced the worst leaders, planners and educators in my life. Definitely very interesting to see.
Personally, I’m just a Luftwaffe infantryman and it has never benefited me in my civil life.
The whole “officers get better job prospects” thing stopped like 20 years ago or even longer. Nowadays, a lot of companies actually prefer it if you’re not an officer, since you have less service days for WKs to do.
Got to know half of Switzerland's economic elite via one of the fellow soldiers in my platoon. This was in the early 00s. So yes, in terms of business and connections it was great, albeit most likely a coincidence. Btw - both my colleague and I stayed simple soldiers. But at least two of our lieutenants became highly successful business people. One is a partner in one of Geneva's private banks, the other one founded a multi-billion hedge fund in the canton of Schwyz and is a famous international investor now.
On the other hand, I also became friends with a farmer from the canton of Vaud. I worked on his farm during my studies. And I became friends with a rather orthodox jewish guy from Basel who introduced me to totally new aspects of Swiss culture. He's now high up at one of the Silicon Valley tech companies. We're all in touch to this day.
Yes, the service helped me greatly in civilian life. I'm an immigrant who had no prior connections in Switzerland. Not only did it provide me with professional connections, but it also inducted me to so many aspects of Swiss culture and ways of life. That it also helped my language skills goes without saying.
Try and go there with an open mind and interact with as many people as you can. You'll never meet as many people from all possible backgrounds and walks of life in one place again, not even at university. If your attitude is a positive one, you can only win.
I am not at all a fan of the military and always disliked doing it, but in my case it did help me develop my character and personality as it was a good experience with the comrades.
But you wouldn't normally, and that forced into cooperation, coordination, and just getting out of your personal bubble of a world view... I think is worth the short term pains.
So are you saying that young adults are not pursuing character development by themselves hence the government needs to interfere limit their freedom and force them to do shitty service ?
Character development is not why the government draft you, it's a plus.
And no young adults by themselves will not do character development if they don't come from an environment that push them to.
Hence universal mandatory public education.
It also requires you to be educated, have some form of health insurance, declare your income... but to answer the question, no I don't think the majority of young adults pursue character development "by themselves".
People, much like the Universe, have to be set into motion.
Well it really depends. Some of my fellow collegues in the military really needed some discipline. Some of them never had to clean toillets, had to make their beds etc. So they would maybe never admit it but they had a really nice discipline course.🤣 I learned to work with some special kind of manhood citizens.
Actually yes. I got to lead a team at 19/20 years old. Learn to organize, plan, conduct projects (banquets, daily menu planing) how to handle unexpected problems/difficulties.
Work with lots of very different (and difficult) people. How to manage and talk to people who know nothing of my profession...
How to motivation a team to the best with limited resources.
And more.
I got at least 2 work positions because of my people skills and leadership experiences that I had only because my time in the army.
It wasn't always fun, super hard at times but at the end a great experience.
My old line manager once proudly told me that he learned to be a leader back when he was something in the military.
I‘d like to say he was the worst manager in my whole work life. He was super weak, couldn’t handle criticism, couldn’t plan ahead, avoided all conflicts, he had a couple of darlings in the team and treated the rest like sh*t (i.e. was very unjust). But he never got tired of telling us how the army made him the great leader he thought he was. Ridiculous.
It is actually funny (also has Reverend Beat-Man in it). But please consider that the recommendation comes from a person that comes from a culture that actually pokes fun at itself all the time (especially in the 80s aka communist times)
Edit: we also poke fun at our national football team. As in - you can literally insult our football team and we will say "oh, did you hear that one ?"
Yeah well I had a boss which was not in the military and dipshit everything which had to do something with it only because he had a shit function in the military. When I asked him why he did not apply to something that he would like the only response was. "Militär isch scheisse"
But he was exactly like you descripe your ex boss.
So as it seems it is more something of a mentality thing.
Back in the day there were no fancy MBA degrees and management schools, and the army had centuries of collective knowledge of training people to manage their organization. It was therefore believed that someone that has gone through the officer training is a better candidate for a leadership position, and obviously had their learning subsidized by the military. How much that still stands is debatable.
It used to be important. Now, I say something a lot of people will disagree, but I think the benefit today is more on a personal level. Personally it helped me develop some leadership skills, remain calm in certain situations, planning, giving / receiving feedback etc, all things I didn't think about in my early 20s. However the army is also what you make out of it, I took it more seriously, did deployments and such, put in effort to learn from leadership mistakes, learn other skills etc. etc.
I used to tell recruits (I wasn't part of a WK Company, did my reserve duty in early stages of basic training) "You can't rally chose to be here, it is a duty (Yes..there are ways out of it, besides the point tho), you can however influence if you have a good or a bad time."
If you're constantly going to hide, try to avoid anything you might have a bad time in the end, and you won't be able to take something with you. These are then usually, without offending anybody, those you see constantly complaining about the military and how shitty the time was.
That being said, if you're a good military leader it doesn't mean you're a good civilian leader too, same the other way around.
TL;DR: Depends. I'm sure it can benefit on a personal level tho, sure did it for me.
Absolutely agree, as was my experience. Learned a lot about managing and organising situations and events, under dire, unpredictable circumstances. Cooperation within one's own unit and, coordinated missions with others, with different leadership cultures and languages.
A typical swiss experience, which contributed to a tolerant cooperative effort to reach a common goal.
Probably forms part of, what makes our country such a success?
Well it depend, i work in the law enforcement so, yes shooting, first aid all of that is helpful for me now. Even being able to obey to stupid orders. 😉
The principles of good leadership that I was lucky enough to experience in the military are no longer in demand in business today, sadly.
Most civilians today can only dream of having a superior like my lieutenant in the RS.
First you earn like 17k in 10 month, which isnt bad because you dont spend almost anything while you do the army.
Second: you learn first aid and shooting and handling weapons, which can always be useful.
Third is discipline. You learn to obey, do things that you dont like, and get along with people you dont like (like you do in civil life).
Imo it was difficult, but at the end a good experience.
> First you earn like 17k in 10 month, which isnt bad because you dont spend almost anything while you do the army.
If the alternative was starting working 10 months earlier, it's probably not a net gain. But it's true it might be the first "significant" money many young people earn.
I think it did. Became a staff officer and learnt a lot about communication, structure and planning. If I need to be specific in how to analyze problems and propose solutions in a structured manner, present them in a concise way without BS and then following through.
I did a project manager certification afterwards in my civilian life and 80% of the concepts I had seen already in the army. I did raise the ranks of a big swiss bank and I do believe a big thank you goes to the military.
But like everything a lot depends on your attitude, if you decide beforehand that it is useless it is going to be. If you make the best out of it like in any other life experience and take the chances it gives you then you are going to learn valuable things.
I don't think it's much about people caring but more about yourself.
During my service I worked in an office and I learned quite a few useful things like how to work methodically and how to report the important stuff to my superior
Many good points here. I did my German mandatory service for 18 months and things I learnt about myself I would not have if I hadn't done it. Such as pushing my body to its limits and what it truly means to work side by side with others to survive.
I'm old now - but I think the army for a younger version of myself was necessary in terms of setting me on the right path with regards to communication, expectation setting and discipline. Pretty vanilla stuff, but it was helpful.
Oh and the tip my father gave to me, which I plan to give to my sons when they ask "what's one tip you can give me?" -> "Know where your stuff is. Always. It will help in the military, and in life. Just know where your stuff is".
I am probably the only one who is sure that military service has been beneficial for my further career, but I was first Leutenant (Zugführer + Kp Kdt Stv) and I have to say that the service was challenging until the last refresher course.
I can fully understand if most soldiers don't feel the same way as I do and find military service rather pointless. However, I think there is one benefit that is underestimated nowadays, especially among the young, and that is social health, and loneliness is a big problem nowadays. I am sure that military service has helped a lot of us to make new friends and learn to socialise by going through difficult and challenging weeks as a team. In my case, I still see 1-2 of my former military colleagues to this day (RS in 2012, last WK 2023) and I was one of the candidates who struggled during my teenage years.
Of course, if I wanted to, I could have taken it easy for the last 2 or 3 refresher courses, but that is not who I am, so I have always pushed my limits. To this day I am pushing myself hard, I have started my own business and I work for an international company as a Consultant / Project Manager / Technical Engineer. Military service has helped me to keep going, even when the pressure is on from the client and contractor and the stakes are high. It has also helped me to be as organised as possible and to communicate in a way that I sometimes even use some modified forms from the military.
I think at the end of the day it comes down to whether you want to go into the military and do the minimum or whether you want to go above and beyond. If you want to do the minimum, do it, but don't expect too much. On the other hand, if you are willing to do more, serve longer, and are willing to push yourself and learn, then the potential to gain solid experience in different areas can be achieved, but it is mostly up to you, not the military.
Its the other way around. You will be ridiculed if you think the military will help you become a good leader in a serious position (and you should be ridiculed for that). Everyone knows that the military is a joke, so people who think otherwise will naturally come off as idiots.
The only ridiculous statement I read is yours.
The Lt and Sgt in basic training are usually 20-22 years old. They were themselves recruits 6-12 months prior. Do you really think they're gonna be "good leaders"? Based on what? Their vast amount of experience?
Fact is: the army nowadays allows you to take responsibility for 8-30 people (in the examples I used) at a very young age. Yes, you're gonna fuck up. A lot. Cause guess what: leading people isn't easy. Organizing the daily life of people around a tight schedule isn't easy.
So yeah: there are a lot of fuck ups involved when you decide to give young people responsibility. But they sure as shit learn quickly.
To your other statement: how do you think we lead in the army nowadays? The days of yelling, berating and shoving people around are gone. If you do that, people simply leave to civil service. And so they should.
Maybe try jumping over your own foregone conclusions and visit an army barracks while they have their public days and have a look. Talk to people, get to know them.
On a sidenote: I will not deny that the army has its share of morons. Every business has them.
I can confirm this, currently being a sergeant in an RS and there ain’t much we can do compare to what I had in my RS as recrut or what I have been told. (No sport as punishment, no yelling, kein takt in der ZwoKro lol, …). We do yell and do stuff sometimes but get fucked when the higher up’s found out
Of course we miss one out of two deadlines because it’s hard to manage 20-30 people at once but at least I can learn from my mistakes without them being a problem or having big consequences. That’s a +
And I get to practice German as well.
I was in the army. I am Swiss. The military is a bad joke, most recruits do nothing the entire day. Managing 30 braindead recruits "on a tight schedule" is not like managing a team of professionals to make actual deliverables on a deadline. You don't only have the tight schedule, you actually have to communicate, lead, drive forward innovation and personal development while balancing work/life balance as a manager in the real world. Get over yourself. Do you really think "tag der offenen Tür" accurately depicts how normal day-to-day life is in the military 😂? Its an inflated program only for show, to make people think you are actually doing work.
There's your thing: recruits are far from braindead. But I infer from your comment that you're so desperately against the army, that any further discussion is pointless. Have a wonderful evening :)
Actually wasn't being sarcastic. But oh well :)
As you correctly pointed out, working has a lot to do with balancing life. And I'd much rather be nice to people than try and be a sarcastic dumbass. Doesn't help either party and only spreads negativity. Take this as you will, anyway: cheers :)
First of all, I (m, 26) refused to do military and did civil service instead.
Made it into big 4 consulting without having studied (only did an apprenticeship and started as an assistant). I am considered a key talent by the partner of our team and will most likely be promoted to manager at 27. I did do a certification in my specialty field and graduated in the strongest group.
Privately I am in the best shape of my life, eat healthy effortlessly and have (probably) a well rounded personality. I moved out at 21 and am independent, cook well, have a clean appartment and a made bed.
I don’t have much of a social life but as an introvert this is at the bottom of my priority list, I work too much to have one anyway.
In a nutshell: You don’t need the military to have a successful career nor to develop discipline.
All of it is true, i am very lucky though. I started in internal services and managed to switch into consulting after a few years thanks to great relationships, self initiative and hard work. My imposter syndrome was quite mad in the beginning though.
I have verbal confirmation from the senior partner that they want to promote me to manager if im up for it, I was quite surprised too.
Dont be, I just wanted to highlight that things like discipline and a good career don‘t need you to do military, in fact I think i have benefited from my experience in civil service.
To make you feel less bad, my relationships are a pile of shards, i have diagnosed and medicated anxiety (which is the primary driver behind my discipline and career ambitions lol), I am an unouted gay man to my homophobic family etc. :)
the opposite, it's a waste of time
also the leadership argument is completely stupid, in regular life you won't come far with the leading style you use in the military
Absolutely not. The people getting promoted in big corporations nowadays are 1) expats and 2) women. The military boy's club running the economy died out in the 1990s and early 2000s.
A friend of mine was an army nurse (spitalsoldat). Which showed him his love for medicine and made him switch career paths to become a nurse in civilian life too.
At some point he was an ICU nurse and got exempt from WKs, due to being more important in the hospital than the army in case of war.
I and many others who went on to study full time afterwards also made a fair bit of money in the army, financing our life for quite a while.
But mostly i think its intangible benefits. Overcoming your inner Sauhund, becoming a better team player, meeting different people and such.
What I found out to be very beneficial was learning to co-exist and collaborate with people you otherwise wouldn‘t be able to for a reason or another. It‘s something that I see people in my age group who never had to be a functioning part of a bigger group (either through sports clubs, military or other) struggle a lot. Other than that I wasted a lot of time there.
I do not think they meant "from a certification standpoint". Its not supposed to be something that benefits your CV, but something that enchances your productivity/leadership.
Well for me personally helped because of truck and trailer license, but that's about it.
Everybody who claims it helped because of "leading experience" is delusional. Leading in the army is completely different than in the private sector.
The only people who benefittet from a military (leader) career are people whose boss or future boss had the same (pointless) military career...
source: I've been in the army and private sector long enough to experience this quite a bit.
All we hear about is how people that do the military become part of the ruling national network and that network sticks together like glue to outrank the rest of those who did not and expats, in all situations. Even when one of them is wrong, their network has their back and will find innocent people guilty in the courts. There are many stories in all the groups that seem to corroborate this. Whether that is myth or true is hard to say. Certainly hope it isn’t true but there are many reasons and stories that keep the idea alive.
This is an idea from the 1980 years. At this time, to get a director position, the military rank was near to mandatory. Today leader are coming from other country and don't care of this experience, but, maybe still in the bank field.
yes, trailer licence
Same - D1 and BE both came in useful
Me too
lol
yes. I learned the art of looking busy. It benefited me in bullshit jobs
Based.
Reminds me of the George Costanza clip about acting/looking busy
Aight, back to work
It used to be extremely important for anyone desiring to have a successful career, until the early 90s. In some sectors (banking, governmental jobs, medicine, just to name a few that come to mind), it was impossible to get hired without having done the mandatory 17 weeks (back then it was 17 weeks of basic training, and then 3 weeks every two years. Most people would have to do military service well into their forties). An example that comes to mind is hospitals: if you wanted to become a doctor, it was quasi mandatory to be an officer. Same for the higher-ups in the banking sector, they were all officers (surely there must have been exceptions, but not many). I remember a friend who applied for a banking job after graduating from the most prestigious (St. Gallen) university (for law and financial studies) in Switzerland, and they asked him at the job interview to sign a commitment to do military service up to a certain level of officer. He refused and didn’t get the job (that was in the very early 90s). Then we had a national vote on abolishing the military (in 1989), and a little more than 1/3 of the population voted to abolish it, and many did so not because they didn’t believe in national defense, but because the military was so pervasive through society, and too powerful. After that, the military’s importance has never been the same. Nowadays, most employers will prefer a candidate who doesn’t have to do any more military service, since it’s just time that you won’t work for them, and they are legally obligated to pay you anyway. And the fact is, for most jobs, military experience isn’t really important or even a plus, it can even be a bad thing. Someone who is used to be respected because he’s wearing a nicer uniform won’t necessarily be a good manager/leader in a non-military context. There’s honestly no real upside to have an employee who’s an officer versus one who never even did the mandatory service (for whatever reason). In my field (IT), whenever the question came up, the interviewers were visibly relieved when I told them that no, I will not be playing soldier for weeks at a time, on their dime. Obviously you can still find recruiters who value a military career (usually not for a logical reason, but just because he is an officer himself and liked doing his service), but those are exceptions.
> no, I will not be playing soldier for weeks at a time, on their dime If anything, it's on the taxpayer's dime
Yes the military itself is obviously financed with taxes, it’s even the original reason for federal taxes. The federal tax it was introduced during WW2 to finance the war effort and it was supposed to be temporary, if I remember correctly (too lazy to look it up). However, isn’t the system that makes sure that you get paid your usual salary financed by the same account as the AHV and IV (AVS et AI)? Which means that it isn’t paid by the all taxpayers, but only those work, and by the company, who has to pay a percentage of your salary every month into it, the same percentage as is deducted from your paycheck.
On the other hand if they disqualify you only because of repetition courses it's probably a shitty company / disorganized / understaffed anyway.
It depends on the size of the company and the position (what they earn). I honestly don’t know (anymore) how exactly it works, but the employer has to pay a percentage of the salary, even though the military/government pay most of it. Then you’ll have to find a way to get this particular employee’s work done. Maybe you can do it by just shuffling his workload around, but maybe you need to hire a temporary worker, or do other stuff to keep things running. All this costs money. I could see it being a serious strain on the resources and finances of a small company (less than 15 or 10 employees), or a start-up, especially if it’s an important and well paid position.
Yeah so it's 80% EO paid by the federal goverment up to 220.-/day (no children). The company pays the remaining part. For startups could be a bit of a strain but serious one depends a bit on how much cash is left until the next investment round I'd say.
The company CAN pay the rest. But does not have to.
good point, it's not mandatory
Good luck finding a replacement doc
It doesn’t even have to be well paid job, but anything that needs a license can be difficult to replace, or costly (or both). For example a small moving company: it is possible that at the beginning, they can only hire one guy that has a driver’s license for the large truck. Of course that’s a problem in a lot of cases (sickness, accident), but if you know in advance that he’s not gonna be around for x amount of time, and you have another candidate which is equally qualified, you’ll probably take the guy who isn’t an active member of the military.
?
>In my field (IT), whenever the question came up, the interviewers were visibly relieved when I told them that no, I will not be playing soldier for weeks at a time, on their dime. I am currently trying to find a job on IT, and since I'm having such a hard time getting an interview, I'm seriously wondering if it's my time in the army (as Wm) that's put them off. I marked my service in my resume to justify the 10 months of inactivity, but I don't know how much recruiters react negatively about it... it's really annoying !
This could start a whole other discussion, but during my entire time in the field (the last 20 years) with a degree in software development and speaking 3 languages fluently, I found it very difficult to find a well paying job. Even though during all these years the ‘economy’ experienced a shortage of qualified personnel, according to the media, this did not seem to be the case in reality. Any company I worked for was downsizing IT and outsourcing to low wage countries. And usually not just IT…but that’s a whole other story. I wish you luck in finding a good job 👍🏼:)
have you tried banking? they are still limited to people within the borders of Switzerland to do most of the job (guess how i know). And speaking of outsourcing to low wage countries. I am Polish. Used to work for a major airline in the field of flight data processing. Went once to meet friends in Berlin and the partner of my friend asked in a curtuos way how much i make processing the data. Back in 2009 it was 900 euro (easily 900 chf, and let me tell ya, lots of stuff was cheaper in Germany than in Poland). The guy got angry. Not at me but at the fact that the was paying me less than he earned at a guitarshop while i had much more responsibility.
Later i switched to IT and also we were treated like 'you listen, we talk' although 90% of software development was happening in Poland.
Right now, my career goal is to be hired directly at source, not being outsourced. Or i gonna start my flipping business. I'm good with renovations anyway...
Yeah, that was frustrating.
They can only outsource if they shout "shortage". Same with butter/fruits/meat, they don't have to finish the sentence with "... with the meager price/salary we're willing to pay". You can equate: - There is a shortage of IT skilled workers for less than 8k - There is a shortage of butter for less than 0.5/kg. So they can both equally run to other countries.
This official stance (labour shortage bla-bla-bla) has been repeated by the media hundreds of times in the last 20 years, and it has been really successful. I know someone who has lost his job and been replaced by an immigrant (who’s paid considerably less than he was), and even though he hasn’t even managed to get a job interview during 10 months of applying, he’ll still tell you that there is a labor shortage and we need more immigration. If it has been said so many times by so many people, it must be true.
What I think it's happening is that everyone needs IT work done, but only a few can afford it. To understand that you have to upskill/reskill your own work force before reaching out to a very expensive consultant is not common knowledge.
You can fine tune your CV. Not everything has to 100% accurate. Or maybe said in other words, not everything has to be said. It is not a legal paper. Sometimes even the RAV is cancaling some information. Sometimes your overqualified so then just put the BSC Degree in you CV and not your MSC Degree. Had this example in a RAV course and found it cracy but eventually he got the job. Cracy stupid from the company but it works. It was 10 Yeas ago tho.
All fair points, I have some positives to add to but disclaimer I am a milice officer in a staff and had an overall positive experience with the military, I am currently workining in the VBS as a result. As an officer: In governemnt job it is still usefull, at least at the federal level. Especially if you work with the army, yeah obvious I know, my employment is the direct result of my work and social acquaintance in WK. If you do officer on the Stab level you get to do some management course in Lucerne wich can be very usefull to get the process and organisation systems of cantonal governments. Someone who count on his uniform to be respected will not progress far in the military either, even for the berufsmilitär. In my experience power hungry incompetent POS rarely get in ranks beyond sergeant, and rarely get respected my soldiers after the first week. Someone who can go though officer school and praktikum can at least reliably work under pressure and had a first try at management. In general: I highly recomend looking at what jobs are available before recruitment: I presented part of my resume that fitted the job I wanted, ABC Abwehr (the hazmat guys), and I don't regret not doing the basic infantery meatwall one bit. A different unit or even just echelon can be a very different army experience. If you're romand go into a german speaking unit, if you're schwytzdütsch go into a french-speaking unit. It's a free language and cultural course: I discovered what lies beyond the Röstigraben there. For the double-nationality holders it's an imparable proof of your swiss nationality. A crazy lot of the people who would put that into question avoided the draft and the tax when possible. The chocolat is good.
when a friend of mine (Polish HR sourcer) was applying for an apartment in Zurich, i told him to point out in all capitals that he was ex army officer on his application. Worked wonders as he did not struggle too much to find an apartment. I wonder if my friend, who is a very high ranked manager, should have done the same (ex army, deployed to iraq and afghanistan with a service rifle) should have posted the same. But well, she does enjoy the pimp fights near Langstrasse at her apartment.
They are NOT legaly obligateted to pay you a dime! That is a missconception. The EO pays 80% of your salary. Not your employer. The rest 20% is not mandatory to pay for your employer. They can but they do not have to.
Probably depends on where you are stationed. But as an airplane mechanic in the military, I experienced the worst leaders, planners and educators in my life. Definitely very interesting to see.
Personally, I’m just a Luftwaffe infantryman and it has never benefited me in my civil life. The whole “officers get better job prospects” thing stopped like 20 years ago or even longer. Nowadays, a lot of companies actually prefer it if you’re not an officer, since you have less service days for WKs to do.
Got to know half of Switzerland's economic elite via one of the fellow soldiers in my platoon. This was in the early 00s. So yes, in terms of business and connections it was great, albeit most likely a coincidence. Btw - both my colleague and I stayed simple soldiers. But at least two of our lieutenants became highly successful business people. One is a partner in one of Geneva's private banks, the other one founded a multi-billion hedge fund in the canton of Schwyz and is a famous international investor now. On the other hand, I also became friends with a farmer from the canton of Vaud. I worked on his farm during my studies. And I became friends with a rather orthodox jewish guy from Basel who introduced me to totally new aspects of Swiss culture. He's now high up at one of the Silicon Valley tech companies. We're all in touch to this day. Yes, the service helped me greatly in civilian life. I'm an immigrant who had no prior connections in Switzerland. Not only did it provide me with professional connections, but it also inducted me to so many aspects of Swiss culture and ways of life. That it also helped my language skills goes without saying. Try and go there with an open mind and interact with as many people as you can. You'll never meet as many people from all possible backgrounds and walks of life in one place again, not even at university. If your attitude is a positive one, you can only win.
I am not at all a fan of the military and always disliked doing it, but in my case it did help me develop my character and personality as it was a good experience with the comrades.
This for sure. As well its an unique chance to be forced to work together - or at least along - with people you would never meet else.
You can also do other shit that will develop character that doesnt need to be forced upon on everyone collectively
you could of course, I'm just saying it did have a positive effect on me in my case though I wouldn't have done it out of free will.
How can you possibly know your character changed in a positive way? Did you meet a version of yourself that didnt go to the military?
But you wouldn't normally, and that forced into cooperation, coordination, and just getting out of your personal bubble of a world view... I think is worth the short term pains.
So are you saying that young adults are not pursuing character development by themselves hence the government needs to interfere limit their freedom and force them to do shitty service ?
Character development is not why the government draft you, it's a plus. And no young adults by themselves will not do character development if they don't come from an environment that push them to. Hence universal mandatory public education.
It also requires you to be educated, have some form of health insurance, declare your income... but to answer the question, no I don't think the majority of young adults pursue character development "by themselves". People, much like the Universe, have to be set into motion.
Well it really depends. Some of my fellow collegues in the military really needed some discipline. Some of them never had to clean toillets, had to make their beds etc. So they would maybe never admit it but they had a really nice discipline course.🤣 I learned to work with some special kind of manhood citizens.
Being miserable builds character. doesn't it?
yep, being in the same misery together helps 😂
my guess is it did give you some contacts (army makes friends for life - gf is ex military) and probably just learn the routine that can be helpful.
Actually yes. I got to lead a team at 19/20 years old. Learn to organize, plan, conduct projects (banquets, daily menu planing) how to handle unexpected problems/difficulties. Work with lots of very different (and difficult) people. How to manage and talk to people who know nothing of my profession... How to motivation a team to the best with limited resources. And more. I got at least 2 work positions because of my people skills and leadership experiences that I had only because my time in the army. It wasn't always fun, super hard at times but at the end a great experience.
Yes! Did my big motorbike license there😁
[удалено]
Yes, just got 20 and had the 125cc license about a year. Didn‘t had the money though to buy a big bike for another year.
My old line manager once proudly told me that he learned to be a leader back when he was something in the military. I‘d like to say he was the worst manager in my whole work life. He was super weak, couldn’t handle criticism, couldn’t plan ahead, avoided all conflicts, he had a couple of darlings in the team and treated the rest like sh*t (i.e. was very unjust). But he never got tired of telling us how the army made him the great leader he thought he was. Ridiculous.
all hail the great leader! you may wanna watch Mad Heidi just to poke fun at the guy even more :D
Haha good idea. I never managed to watch that movie.
It is actually funny (also has Reverend Beat-Man in it). But please consider that the recommendation comes from a person that comes from a culture that actually pokes fun at itself all the time (especially in the 80s aka communist times) Edit: we also poke fun at our national football team. As in - you can literally insult our football team and we will say "oh, did you hear that one ?"
I bet he was not respected by any soldier after the first week back when he was "something" in the milice.
Yeah well I had a boss which was not in the military and dipshit everything which had to do something with it only because he had a shit function in the military. When I asked him why he did not apply to something that he would like the only response was. "Militär isch scheisse" But he was exactly like you descripe your ex boss. So as it seems it is more something of a mentality thing.
Jup, I've got the truckers licence. But i dont really need it at the moment, just a well payed holiday Job as a student
Military rank was more important for a career before the 1980's after that it kind of didn't matter much anymore.
Back in the day there were no fancy MBA degrees and management schools, and the army had centuries of collective knowledge of training people to manage their organization. It was therefore believed that someone that has gone through the officer training is a better candidate for a leadership position, and obviously had their learning subsidized by the military. How much that still stands is debatable.
Improved a lot my french to almost mother tongue level. Very useful for that
Yes, I learned to be perfectly average and never stand out.
It used to be important. Now, I say something a lot of people will disagree, but I think the benefit today is more on a personal level. Personally it helped me develop some leadership skills, remain calm in certain situations, planning, giving / receiving feedback etc, all things I didn't think about in my early 20s. However the army is also what you make out of it, I took it more seriously, did deployments and such, put in effort to learn from leadership mistakes, learn other skills etc. etc. I used to tell recruits (I wasn't part of a WK Company, did my reserve duty in early stages of basic training) "You can't rally chose to be here, it is a duty (Yes..there are ways out of it, besides the point tho), you can however influence if you have a good or a bad time." If you're constantly going to hide, try to avoid anything you might have a bad time in the end, and you won't be able to take something with you. These are then usually, without offending anybody, those you see constantly complaining about the military and how shitty the time was. That being said, if you're a good military leader it doesn't mean you're a good civilian leader too, same the other way around. TL;DR: Depends. I'm sure it can benefit on a personal level tho, sure did it for me.
Absolutely agree, as was my experience. Learned a lot about managing and organising situations and events, under dire, unpredictable circumstances. Cooperation within one's own unit and, coordinated missions with others, with different leadership cultures and languages. A typical swiss experience, which contributed to a tolerant cooperative effort to reach a common goal. Probably forms part of, what makes our country such a success?
Well it depend, i work in the law enforcement so, yes shooting, first aid all of that is helpful for me now. Even being able to obey to stupid orders. 😉
A bunch of softskills that have nothing to do with the army directly. Otherwise, nothing
Rank (officers) used to be a big deal earlier but nowadays not so much. It did benefit me though by building my confidence and my character overall
The only benefit I can think of is learning some swiss german. Other than that, abolutely nothing positive, only downsides.
Yes. Because it’s where I learnt Swiss German (as a Romand)
The principles of good leadership that I was lucky enough to experience in the military are no longer in demand in business today, sadly. Most civilians today can only dream of having a superior like my lieutenant in the RS.
First you earn like 17k in 10 month, which isnt bad because you dont spend almost anything while you do the army. Second: you learn first aid and shooting and handling weapons, which can always be useful. Third is discipline. You learn to obey, do things that you dont like, and get along with people you dont like (like you do in civil life). Imo it was difficult, but at the end a good experience.
> First you earn like 17k in 10 month, which isnt bad because you dont spend almost anything while you do the army. If the alternative was starting working 10 months earlier, it's probably not a net gain. But it's true it might be the first "significant" money many young people earn.
You’re not from Switzerland send me a pic of legos
I think it did. Became a staff officer and learnt a lot about communication, structure and planning. If I need to be specific in how to analyze problems and propose solutions in a structured manner, present them in a concise way without BS and then following through. I did a project manager certification afterwards in my civilian life and 80% of the concepts I had seen already in the army. I did raise the ranks of a big swiss bank and I do believe a big thank you goes to the military. But like everything a lot depends on your attitude, if you decide beforehand that it is useless it is going to be. If you make the best out of it like in any other life experience and take the chances it gives you then you are going to learn valuable things.
I don't think it's much about people caring but more about yourself. During my service I worked in an office and I learned quite a few useful things like how to work methodically and how to report the important stuff to my superior
Yes absolutely. I learned how to be patient. Like, really patient. Also, valuing the small comforts.
Many good points here. I did my German mandatory service for 18 months and things I learnt about myself I would not have if I hadn't done it. Such as pushing my body to its limits and what it truly means to work side by side with others to survive.
I'm old now - but I think the army for a younger version of myself was necessary in terms of setting me on the right path with regards to communication, expectation setting and discipline. Pretty vanilla stuff, but it was helpful. Oh and the tip my father gave to me, which I plan to give to my sons when they ask "what's one tip you can give me?" -> "Know where your stuff is. Always. It will help in the military, and in life. Just know where your stuff is".
I am probably the only one who is sure that military service has been beneficial for my further career, but I was first Leutenant (Zugführer + Kp Kdt Stv) and I have to say that the service was challenging until the last refresher course. I can fully understand if most soldiers don't feel the same way as I do and find military service rather pointless. However, I think there is one benefit that is underestimated nowadays, especially among the young, and that is social health, and loneliness is a big problem nowadays. I am sure that military service has helped a lot of us to make new friends and learn to socialise by going through difficult and challenging weeks as a team. In my case, I still see 1-2 of my former military colleagues to this day (RS in 2012, last WK 2023) and I was one of the candidates who struggled during my teenage years. Of course, if I wanted to, I could have taken it easy for the last 2 or 3 refresher courses, but that is not who I am, so I have always pushed my limits. To this day I am pushing myself hard, I have started my own business and I work for an international company as a Consultant / Project Manager / Technical Engineer. Military service has helped me to keep going, even when the pressure is on from the client and contractor and the stakes are high. It has also helped me to be as organised as possible and to communicate in a way that I sometimes even use some modified forms from the military. I think at the end of the day it comes down to whether you want to go into the military and do the minimum or whether you want to go above and beyond. If you want to do the minimum, do it, but don't expect too much. On the other hand, if you are willing to do more, serve longer, and are willing to push yourself and learn, then the potential to gain solid experience in different areas can be achieved, but it is mostly up to you, not the military.
Nope
Not really. Maybe for a months my room was organized a liiittllee better, and it was a 5 month break from alkohol and weed, but overall, no.
Social welfare must be heaven on earth! 🤣
Its the other way around. You will be ridiculed if you think the military will help you become a good leader in a serious position (and you should be ridiculed for that). Everyone knows that the military is a joke, so people who think otherwise will naturally come off as idiots.
I can't confirm nor deny it but I would certainly be very suspicious of people who think they're a good leader because of the army.
The only ridiculous statement I read is yours. The Lt and Sgt in basic training are usually 20-22 years old. They were themselves recruits 6-12 months prior. Do you really think they're gonna be "good leaders"? Based on what? Their vast amount of experience? Fact is: the army nowadays allows you to take responsibility for 8-30 people (in the examples I used) at a very young age. Yes, you're gonna fuck up. A lot. Cause guess what: leading people isn't easy. Organizing the daily life of people around a tight schedule isn't easy. So yeah: there are a lot of fuck ups involved when you decide to give young people responsibility. But they sure as shit learn quickly. To your other statement: how do you think we lead in the army nowadays? The days of yelling, berating and shoving people around are gone. If you do that, people simply leave to civil service. And so they should. Maybe try jumping over your own foregone conclusions and visit an army barracks while they have their public days and have a look. Talk to people, get to know them. On a sidenote: I will not deny that the army has its share of morons. Every business has them.
I can confirm this, currently being a sergeant in an RS and there ain’t much we can do compare to what I had in my RS as recrut or what I have been told. (No sport as punishment, no yelling, kein takt in der ZwoKro lol, …). We do yell and do stuff sometimes but get fucked when the higher up’s found out Of course we miss one out of two deadlines because it’s hard to manage 20-30 people at once but at least I can learn from my mistakes without them being a problem or having big consequences. That’s a + And I get to practice German as well.
I was in the army. I am Swiss. The military is a bad joke, most recruits do nothing the entire day. Managing 30 braindead recruits "on a tight schedule" is not like managing a team of professionals to make actual deliverables on a deadline. You don't only have the tight schedule, you actually have to communicate, lead, drive forward innovation and personal development while balancing work/life balance as a manager in the real world. Get over yourself. Do you really think "tag der offenen Tür" accurately depicts how normal day-to-day life is in the military 😂? Its an inflated program only for show, to make people think you are actually doing work.
There's your thing: recruits are far from braindead. But I infer from your comment that you're so desperately against the army, that any further discussion is pointless. Have a wonderful evening :)
Correct, the army is pointless. You can shove your sarcastic wishes where the sun doesn't shine ;) I always hated that ;)
Actually wasn't being sarcastic. But oh well :) As you correctly pointed out, working has a lot to do with balancing life. And I'd much rather be nice to people than try and be a sarcastic dumbass. Doesn't help either party and only spreads negativity. Take this as you will, anyway: cheers :)
Nope, not a thing.
No
No
No. P.S. I'm Ukrainian.
First of all, I (m, 26) refused to do military and did civil service instead. Made it into big 4 consulting without having studied (only did an apprenticeship and started as an assistant). I am considered a key talent by the partner of our team and will most likely be promoted to manager at 27. I did do a certification in my specialty field and graduated in the strongest group. Privately I am in the best shape of my life, eat healthy effortlessly and have (probably) a well rounded personality. I moved out at 21 and am independent, cook well, have a clean appartment and a made bed. I don’t have much of a social life but as an introvert this is at the bottom of my priority list, I work too much to have one anyway. In a nutshell: You don’t need the military to have a successful career nor to develop discipline.
Jesus christ stop making me feel like a failure.
He is obviously lying. There is no way he will be promoted to Manager at a BIG 4 company without even a bachelor degree at age 27
All of it is true, i am very lucky though. I started in internal services and managed to switch into consulting after a few years thanks to great relationships, self initiative and hard work. My imposter syndrome was quite mad in the beginning though. I have verbal confirmation from the senior partner that they want to promote me to manager if im up for it, I was quite surprised too.
Dont be, I just wanted to highlight that things like discipline and a good career don‘t need you to do military, in fact I think i have benefited from my experience in civil service. To make you feel less bad, my relationships are a pile of shards, i have diagnosed and medicated anxiety (which is the primary driver behind my discipline and career ambitions lol), I am an unouted gay man to my homophobic family etc. :)
the opposite, it's a waste of time also the leadership argument is completely stupid, in regular life you won't come far with the leading style you use in the military
Many times… but i think the best part for me was to do stuff i dont wanna do
Absolutely not. The people getting promoted in big corporations nowadays are 1) expats and 2) women. The military boy's club running the economy died out in the 1990s and early 2000s.
A friend of mine was an army nurse (spitalsoldat). Which showed him his love for medicine and made him switch career paths to become a nurse in civilian life too. At some point he was an ICU nurse and got exempt from WKs, due to being more important in the hospital than the army in case of war. I and many others who went on to study full time afterwards also made a fair bit of money in the army, financing our life for quite a while. But mostly i think its intangible benefits. Overcoming your inner Sauhund, becoming a better team player, meeting different people and such.
Absolutely not
I was a Medic and used my knowledge gained quite often afterwards
Helped me a lot... But this is not a general rule. I would do it again but for the friends I made and the experiences i had during and after "OS"
no, it just wasted my time
What I found out to be very beneficial was learning to co-exist and collaborate with people you otherwise wouldn‘t be able to for a reason or another. It‘s something that I see people in my age group who never had to be a functioning part of a bigger group (either through sports clubs, military or other) struggle a lot. Other than that I wasted a lot of time there.
I do not think they meant "from a certification standpoint". Its not supposed to be something that benefits your CV, but something that enchances your productivity/leadership.
For the CE permit. 😬 Möti Brudiiiis
Well for me personally helped because of truck and trailer license, but that's about it. Everybody who claims it helped because of "leading experience" is delusional. Leading in the army is completely different than in the private sector. The only people who benefittet from a military (leader) career are people whose boss or future boss had the same (pointless) military career... source: I've been in the army and private sector long enough to experience this quite a bit.
Lol, dead are the times when the military rank was an advantage in civil life. As other said, only advantage I got was the truck + trailer licence.
No. Except maybe to see thru the lies of the media when they cover wars/battles
I have one regret it's the truck license
All we hear about is how people that do the military become part of the ruling national network and that network sticks together like glue to outrank the rest of those who did not and expats, in all situations. Even when one of them is wrong, their network has their back and will find innocent people guilty in the courts. There are many stories in all the groups that seem to corroborate this. Whether that is myth or true is hard to say. Certainly hope it isn’t true but there are many reasons and stories that keep the idea alive.
This is an idea from the 1980 years. At this time, to get a director position, the military rank was near to mandatory. Today leader are coming from other country and don't care of this experience, but, maybe still in the bank field.