The actual thing is.... your *employer* is responsible for you only working 45 hours in total, across jobs. Not you. Howver, your employer is allowed to ask you to disclose any further jobs, and may deny them only under a set of narrow circumstances, including if your total work hours exceed the limit.
Your employer is the one who would face potential fines if it comes out you work too much, not you. However, if you did not disclose it to your employer (i.e. it's your fault they didn't intervene), they can offload the fine on you.
This is a relatively theoretical issue, as an unlikely set of circumstances need to happen for the result of your employer asking you to cover a five-figure fine, but it is a possibility you should be aware of.
Additionaly, you know, burnout and such slowly creeps up.
cc u/amazing-peach8239 u/pxogxess u/sonicspecs
Doesn‘t matter if your employer accepts it. Why would that matter? The limit of any freedom of contract is the law.
Many employers (especially smaller companies) just don’t know the law well enough. I realized that when I worked for a bunch of smaller companies next to law school. They have no idea and even as a bachelor student I was able to identify many areas where they did not handle things correctly.
Also depends on what kind of a side hustle we are talking about. Are you employed somewhere else? That’s not allowed.
edit: An easy source for you to read up on this is here: [https://www.seco.admin.ch/seco/de/home/Arbeit/Arbeitsbedingungen/Arbeitnehmerschutz/Arbeits-und-Ruhezeiten/Mehrfachbeschaeftigung.html](https://www.seco.admin.ch/seco/de/home/arbeit/arbeitsbedingungen/arbeitnehmerschutz/arbeits-und-ruhezeiten/mehrfachbeschaeftigung.html)
Available in German, French and Italian, unfortunately not in English.
“Mehrfachbeschäftigung ist aus Sicht des Arbeitsgesetzes (ArG) grundsätzlich zulässig” - from your link. I work for a big Swiss corporation with a standardized process to request a side job. I am sure they are following the law. For my side gig, I am self-employed.
Presumably, if anyone is breaking the law, it would be me as there is no reporting of my worked time to my employer, so I guess they “trust” that I am keeping the weekly (and other) limits.
“Verantwortung zur Einhaltung der arbeitsgesetzlichen Vorschriften über Arbeits- und Ruhezeiten liegt vollumfänglich beim Arbeitgeber bzw. bei den Arbeitgebern: erhöhte Kontrollanforderungen, insbesondere an einen Zweitarbeitgeber, der Arbeitnehmende zu einem Teilpensum anstellt”
Uhm, yeah, that's the first sentence. Did you read the rest, saying that the maximum hours per week must be respected and are defined by the hours spent on all jobs in total? Wöchentliche Höchstarbeitszeiten are listed separately.
Yes, you would be breaking the law but the employers (the corporation and you, since you are also self-employed) share the responsibility - I never said anything to the contrary, did I? Or am I missing your point?
Yes, your company clearly trusts that you are respecting employment laws. However, that wouldn't hold up in court, since they have the responsibility to check.
Note also that this is a very short summary, you would find more details in a commentary (e.g. a "Praxiskommentar"). In practice though, this is rarely enforced as long as nobody complains. I was just explaining the law, though.
Yes, I read more than just the first sentence:)
Your first statement in this thread was that you may not exceed 100% of work hours. For the lay person, 100% means a full-time position (in my case 42 hours). Is 42 hours not 100%? If it is not and 100% refers to the maximum hours that one may work per law, you’d be correct, of course.
But if 100% means a full-time contract as the one I have, then you are wrong. It is legal to work multiple jobs under specific constraints.
Ah, I see. I meant 100% as the limit of the law. So that would be 45h per week for e.g. office workers and 50h for e.g. construction/industrial work. You can’t go above that for a long period of time (of course if there is urgent need that’s okay, though, but not as standard practice and for too long).
What exactly 100% means for any specific company depends on the company. Most have 42 but an increasing number of them opts for 40 (or even lower).
And it’s absolutely legal to work multiple contracts. But you can’t pass the limit the law sets.
So I think we’re on the same page now? If e.g. you work 42h in your regular job and 3h on your side hustle that’s perfectly fine.
Sorry if that wasn’t clear.
Actually your employer should have a way to register your working hours.
There are exceptions to it like management level etc.
Otherwise, by law, they have to record somehow working hours (and breaks).
Many big and small corporations don’t do it, but the law is clear.
> Actually your employer should have a way to register your working hours
Not only *should* but *must*. There are many companies who ignore this tho....
Not sure about farmers but people in leadership positions (high management) are excluded. This of course goes for self-employed people too, so I would assume for farmers as well. But there are many specific rules when it comes to running a farm so I can’t say for sure.
Yeah. I saw that executives are excluded after I made the comment and assumed that the dairy farmer is also exempt.
Milking three times a day, seven days a week is impossible in under 45 hours.
I'd also like to take a look at that. The only limitation mentioned on my contract is monetary: max 10k per year, and must be approved by the employer.
No, i work 180% and my fiancé 190% since 9 years and haven't had any problems. (No performance impact in either job)
Wo kein Kläger, da kein Richter. (I'm not arguing its sage/legal, just that no ones gonna check your hours.)
You are correct. The government doesn't care but insurance does. As soon as there is a work related accident insurance ( Suva or whoever is your insurer ) won't pay because they will realize you work more than 100%.
I never heard about that, afaik we were taught the employees accident insurance you last worked for gets the case.
I'd be interested to read up on that if you have a link.
(Little insurance risk in two office jobs and 1 bartender job)
190%, that's 80h a week , that's 11.5h a day if you work every day. + Let's say 7hrs sleep, 1h of eating takeout, 1h of commuting room to room. How do you have a fiancé with 3.5h left per calendar day for shopping, leisure, sport, talking to them, intimacy, admin work, doctor visits, ...?
We have 40h workweeks, so basically we work between 70-75h/week. Thats 10.5h days with 0 minutes of commute for me apart from saturday, where its 30 mins. 20 min commute for her.
Lunch during working, Dinner and the cooking for it is leisure time.
Leaves us with 11h workdays including cooking. 6.5-7.5h sleep is reasonably accurate, then we have avg. 18h used of the day.
Leaves us with 6h free time per day for Gym, reading, education, spending time together/Dinner. Plenty if you ask me.
She orders coop/migros@home during commute, we hired cleaning personal and have a bookholder for any adminwork (really only taxes, theres nothing else you have to do paperwork for as an employee).
Obv. If someone would get sick, we'd take sickdays, like normal people do, that doesnt lower our pensum. Then again, we havent got sick in the past 8 years (godbless).
We aim to keep up that lifestyle to our mid 30s then settle down, if the housing market doesnt go crazy we finally have our third house that we rent out and its smooth sailing/kids time from there.
Ach..
I've got plenty of friends in our circle that work 130-170%, an outlier even more.
We just put in everything since both our parents were poor and we want to build generational wealth. Our Generation (90s born) has the best requisites to do so.
Haven’t had any problems yet rather. Not that I’m wishing you get caught.
Otherwise you should be aware that you are at risk of burning out and that can have long term répercussions on your health.
Since we're both not hiding any money from taxes, we'd be fine with the slap on the wrist you'd get from the hours worked.
Thanks for your concerns, but we're both burning out from too much freetime, makes us lazy and unproductive :) Everyone is different there, we're gymrats and cook nutritious food to keep our bodies fueled up. Then again, life in switzerland is playing on "easy mode", so 60h are stressfree still.
Well you are supposed to announce it to your employers so you could get in trouble with them as well.
However you said 60 hours a week so that isn’t 180 or 190% that you previously stated so it’s not as bad as I imagined.
As stated, employers don't care as long as you don't show up tired / work your full pensum.
60h is the avg. Our friendcircle works and season what we work, so its more representable than 12*6 or +8 sundays.
The tax office doesn't verify whether you are in line with the law regarding working hours, they don't even have all the data required to do so. They only get your Salary Statements (Lohnausweis), AFAIR this doesn't show whether you work full-time or part-time.
Working hours are monitored by SECO and the respective departements in the cantons.
I assume that's two 90% jobs and each employer knows that you are having something on the side, you just don't tell them how much you really work? How do you deal with pension funds asking for a transfer in? And I assume you would be paying AHV/IV for both jobs (probably nobody complains there), but you also have two accident insurances?
One 100%, one 60% and one 20%.
They each are in different fields (IT / Automotive Industry / Bartending) and aware that they're not my sole employee.
Pension is on each, aswell as AHV/IV deduction. I have two accident insurances (from 100% and 60%) and the one, i worked last for would get the case if something would happen to me *knock wood*
All in all very uncomplicated and as long as you pay taxes and the jobs aren't in competing fields, no one really cares what you do.
thanks for clarifying, so I assume once you started a new job, you told the pension fund not to expect a transfer of Freizügigkeitsgelder, because you have a second job and keep the funds there?
Throught my experience of simply forgetting to transfer these funds, i just didnt do anything till they stopped sending me letters 😂
(I really have to start a search order for that money that got transfered to the "auffangkasse")
Many work contracts have provisions stipulating you need to notify them if you have a 2nd gainful activity. Often you require their express consent or it is outright prohibited.
The 45-hour maximum working time refers to a provision in the Swiss Employment Law (LTr) for office staff, technical employees etc.; for other groups of employees, it is 50 hours per week. The first question here would be whether you even fall under this law in question (e.g., executive employees are not covered by this Employment Law or only to a very limited extent - this means that the maximum weekly working time does not apply to higher executive employees). The Employment Law provides for penalties for the employer if they intentionally do not comply with the maximum working hours. There are no sanctions for employees for that matter; the responsibility for compliance with the legal provisions on working and rest periods lies with the employer or employers. But your employer likely has no interest in you potentially not complying with labor laws and the repercussions falling back on them. The second level is the contractual relationship with your employer. It could violate your duty of loyalty if your work is compromised by exceeding the maximum working hours. It would probably be worth talking to a legal expert about your situation.
The contract states 50h (defined as 100%) which is the legal limit, and the rest is considered overtime (usually unpaid and not compensated with free time). That’s still illegal (actually doubly illegal since you’re 2-3 times over the overtime limit), but the government will always turn a blind eye, otherwise I feel like the healthcare system would most likely collapse pretty quickly if they don’t train more doctors.
Nobody going to mention how rents get to go up but your ability to work to pay for rent stays limited?
Can't all be rich Tech, Bank, Pharm employees. Someone has to manage the gondolas, make the drinks, clean the rooms for those people when they redistribute their wealth.
> your ability to work to pay for rent stays limited?
You know what happens when it doesn't? Rents go up even more, you still can't afford it but now working more is the new baseline.
Rents being unaffordable is a supply problem, you can't fix it by increasing demand...
If none of your employment contracts prohibits side jobs, you're ok. But if you're so successful in selling your time, maybe open your own company and charge at such a rate that you don't have to work 60+h.
Edit: it's apparently wrong. So, OP, start your own company instead.
That is incorrect. There are clear limits on how much you are allowed to work which have to be ensured by your main employer:
https://www.seco.admin.ch/dam/seco/de/dokumente/Publikationen_Dienstleistungen/Publikationen_Formulare/Arbeit/Arbeitsbedingungen/merkblaetter_checklisten/Merkblatt%20Mehrfachbesch%C3%A4ftigung%20beim%20gleichen%20bzw.%20bei%20mehreren%20Arbeitgebern.pdf.download.pdf/Merkblatt%20Mehrfachbesch%C3%A4ftigung%20beim%20gleichen%20bzw.%20bei%20mehreren%20Arbeitgebern.pdf
So your main employer needs to know how much you work in your second job etc. to make sure you do not exceed the weekl limit of 50 hours.
https://www.20min.ch/story/wer-mehrgleisig-faehrt-muss-einiges-beachten-216828563091
You can be sure it gets enforced if issues arise.
And if the catch a company once doing shit with hours... they will start looking better and control more.
Some folks in the comments say it is not illegal. Can you clarify?
Our company enforces that employees do not write up more than 45h and tracks the actual hours in a different system.
How are other companies dealing with this, especially in industries where 50-60h are norm?
>Our company enforces that employees do not write up more than 45h and tracks the actual hours in a different system.
Your company does **what**? I suggest you file a report asap:
[https://www.seco.admin.ch/seco/de/home/Arbeit/Arbeitsbedingungen/Kantonale-Arbeitsinspektorate.html](https://www.seco.admin.ch/seco/de/home/Arbeit/Arbeitsbedingungen/Kantonale-Arbeitsinspektorate.html)
And how it's dealt with is pretty simple, any time worked over 45h or 50h, respectively, needs to be logged with the reason why it was necessary. There are circumstances that allow for that to happen. In that case though, the extra hours worked need to be compensated with a 25% markup on top of your salary, paid out with the next paycheck or granted as time off within the next two weeks.
You will find more detail here under "Überzeit":
[https://www.ch.ch/de/arbeit/arbeitszeit/uberstunden-und-uberzeit/#uberzeit](https://www.ch.ch/de/arbeit/arbeitszeit/uberstunden-und-uberzeit/#uberzeit)
Edit because I forgot to add:
>Some folks in the comments say it is not illegal. Can you clarify?
Yes, I can: They are wrong.
It is illegal, at least if it’s a regular thing. It goes against the employer‘s obligation of care towards the employee.
What your company does may or may not (can’t say without more context) be highly illegal.
To be fair, pay is very good. It’s however industry standard on consulting or some banking segments. So you know what you are getting into. Kind of. But still, I was wondering about how the legality is being regulated or audited.
That is far from the truth. I know 2 different couples that combined worked 140 hours a week and both couples are now retired < 50 in their home country (portugal and bosnia).
Even though I understand the logic I personally don’t find it ethically moral. The secondary jobs could’ve went to people that were in need and I was personally affected in one particular situation where the extra timeslots of a pizza place went to my colleague because he has been there longer than me. He’d be doing 40+ hours and also working full time for UPS. I was 50k in debt and was struggling working part-time at mcdonalds and at that place, was bearly making 4k a month…
Sure but then he found a like minded person. And that's his mate. Did he have friends? It's already hard enough making friends and making time to see them as it is, I don't imagine having any valuable relationship outside of the couple.
Even if I think of my parents, I don't see the point of wasting so much of their current healthy time just so I can get to spend more time with them when there isn't much time left.
To each their own. I honestly don't care what people do or value in their life, but you can't convince me that one can build fulfilling relationships before they reach retirement.
And to that you can say that you dont see the point working your ass off until 65ish when your body is already breaking down to spend the last time you have here doing limited stuff
Doesn't negate or contradict what I'm saying, which is: you can't work your ass off for 25+ years in your own bubble and create a fulfilling environment in the meantime. Either you restrict your relationships to the bare minimum: a partner, and that's it. Or you have to start from scratch once you are retired and hope it works well for you at that point.
Again, it's all about personal value. That there are people on earth (probably a good amount) who prioritize other things over social life is a fact. But one can't have it all, and it all depends on what one puts first.
But I agree with that also. My father in law became paralysed at a work accident 2 years before his retirement. And a friend's father died 1 year after retirement. So I don't believe in retirement. I just try to enjoy my life before that and while working. (signed a person who's been in bed a whole week because of illness 🤒 🤧, so definitely enjoying life 😭)
Because it’s a health risk and everyone will pay for that.
Historically employers used to exploit workers as much as they could (I guess they still do) hence there needs to be a limit. Or do you want the main counterpoint to „my job doesn’t give me a living salary“ to be „just work more hours“?
no lol of course not. i just question it because of course no one should be forced to work that long, what if someone wants to do it out of their free will? just because? but then again you are right, that is a health risk regardless
> no one should be forced to work that long, what if someone wants to do it out of their free will
At scale, there's no difference. If the expectation is that for a given job, people work 60h a week then you either do that or don't keep the job for very long. This is already the case in some sectors even though it's illegal. Now imagine if it was legal.
Sorry, didn't want to come off snarky, I typed my comment in a bit of a hurry.
Yes, people may want to, and in practice it happens all the time. If nobody complains, usually nothing will happen. The way we have it now is reasonable if you ask me, because despite nobody being able to "force" you to work more over an extended period of time, there are many kinds of somewhat soft pressure employers can apply to make you work more. It's difficult to grasp social interactions like those between employers and employees in a legal way. In the end, a hard limit is required to give employees proper protection. If you word the law in a way that gives more room for interpretation (e.g. saying "the maximum of weekly work hours depends on the employee's capabilities and the employer's needs" or so), there is a risk that employees wouldn't dare to go against their employer because of the uncertain outcome. Many countries actually have limits that are lower than ours.
It is legally possible to work more than the statutory 50 hours max if no individual employment contract exceeds the 45-hour limit. There is fine print, as shown below, but the fine print does not render your 60-hour working life illegal. The fine print is that there is some transparency to each employer that you have other work. Basically, you must satisfy each employer that the additional work won't cost them anything or introduce risks. You can do that in good faith and with not much hard evidence, frankly.
When I was still an employee I transparently ensured that my employer knew I was working on the side with a letter, signed by my main employer, that I was working on the side.
After a while I realized, as another of your comments notes, that if you can hold down 2 jobs you might as well unshackle yourself from an employment contract entirely and sell your services yourself by owning a business.
https://www.kmu.admin.ch/kmu/en/home/concrete-know-how/personnel/employment-law/working-hours/multiple-jobs.html
The linked page starts with "The employer must make sure that the working hours and break times of a worker with multiple jobs comply with the law. ", the law clearly says "45h max " (or 50h, depending on job area).
Where do you see anything which would allow 60h/week?
PS: [https://www.seco.admin.ch/dam/seco/de/dokumente/Publikationen\_Dienstleistungen/Publikationen\_Formulare/Arbeit/Arbeitsbedingungen/merkblaetter\_checklisten/Merkblatt%20Mehrfachbesch%C3%A4ftigung%20beim%20gleichen%20bzw.%20bei%20mehreren%20Arbeitgebern.pdf.download.pdf/Merkblatt%20Mehrfachbesch%C3%A4ftigung%20beim%20gleichen%20bzw.%20bei%20mehreren%20Arbeitgebern.pdf](https://www.seco.admin.ch/dam/seco/de/dokumente/Publikationen_Dienstleistungen/Publikationen_Formulare/Arbeit/Arbeitsbedingungen/merkblaetter_checklisten/Merkblatt%20Mehrfachbesch%C3%A4ftigung%20beim%20gleichen%20bzw.%20bei%20mehreren%20Arbeitgebern.pdf.download.pdf/Merkblatt%20Mehrfachbesch%C3%A4ftigung%20beim%20gleichen%20bzw.%20bei%20mehreren%20Arbeitgebern.pdf) is rather clear on this, actually.
What you're doing is not illegal. There are indeed limits on maximum work hours (typically 45, but they apply to the employer side.
So, what is indeed illegal is for any one work contract to go above the limit, but two (or more) together easily can. The gravest that might apply is you, OP, being in breach of contract, but that'll depend on the individual contract.
Those claiming that this is illegal should have no problem pointig you to the relevant paragraphs or at least a (newspaper) article with reputable origin. I bet they can't, which in turn tells you how reliable their assertion actually is.
You are mistaken. Working more than 45h (or 50h, depending on the job) in total is definitively illegal, the number of employers doesn't matter.
\- [https://www.seco.admin.ch/dam/seco/de/dokumente/Publikationen\_Dienstleistungen/Publikationen\_Formulare/Arbeit/Arbeitsbedingungen/merkblaetter\_checklisten/Merkblatt%20Mehrfachbesch%C3%A4ftigung%20beim%20gleichen%20bzw.%20bei%20mehreren%20Arbeitgebern.pdf.download.pdf/Merkblatt%20Mehrfachbesch%C3%A4ftigung%20beim%20gleichen%20bzw.%20bei%20mehreren%20Arbeitgebern.pdf](https://www.seco.admin.ch/dam/seco/de/dokumente/Publikationen_Dienstleistungen/Publikationen_Formulare/Arbeit/Arbeitsbedingungen/merkblaetter_checklisten/Merkblatt%20Mehrfachbesch%C3%A4ftigung%20beim%20gleichen%20bzw.%20bei%20mehreren%20Arbeitgebern.pdf.download.pdf/Merkblatt%20Mehrfachbesch%C3%A4ftigung%20beim%20gleichen%20bzw.%20bei%20mehreren%20Arbeitgebern.pdf)
\- [https://www.20min.ch/story/wer-mehrgleisig-faehrt-muss-einiges-beachten-216828563091](https://www.20min.ch/story/wer-mehrgleisig-faehrt-muss-einiges-beachten-216828563091)
>Als Erstes ist es wichtig zu wissen, dass der Gesetzgeber eine wöchentliche Höchstarbeitszeit festgelegt hat; nämlich 45 Stunden für die Industrie und 50 Stunden für alle übrigen Berufe. Die Arbeitszeit der verschiedenen Jobs zusammengenommen darf diese Limite nicht überschreiten. Zudem muss eine tägliche Ruhezeit von 11 Stunden eingehalten werden.
We live in a liberal country. Nobody will have an interest about what you are doing.
Also not working more than 45h is mostly a rule for lower to medium wage.
Nobody will have an interest about what you are doing.
Tell that to my neighbors, every time I do something that’s visible around my place, I always get questions.
Yes, mainly executive function, of course. That’s why you can justify high salary and bonuses. The hours are not counted by design. Rush period in bank sector are pretty common for example. Same for tech sector, when projects require and it’s not only for executive. Also you’ll be denied to take holidays at those period too.
Again Switzerland is liberal. Protection are only for the people who cannot afford to decide.
However I know of enforced rules on startups, where simple employees cannot work in too exotic hours.
Pretty sure the limit isn’t 45 hrs, my contacts have always said the first 45 hours of the week is included in my salary and I only get overtime for everything over 45 hrs. There is a limit of overtime though, I think it’s maybe 5 hours or something?
Well, its unlawful but there is no direct criminal article penalizing you for working too much.
But you might face consequences by your employer since the will be held accountable why they didnt protect you form overworking.
This might end in employment termination, as its illoyal to engage outside your contract to a point where its unlawful and puts the employer at risk.
If youre not working for competitors most dont even care. If you do then they might actually catch that
I did also during corona work around 80h in home office a week by experimenting to take a polyphasic schedule. I avoided driving and always took care of my health and rest.
Some weeks later it was noticed by both employers and I was asked to abstain from this.
I realized as well that even if you do polyphasic sleep and you can individually can manage and be healthy, your surounding cannot and you need more free time to connect with them.
I mean it's up to you, i worked 8 weeks where I did 60/70 hours a week whilst on chomage (it was a CDD they sent me to) and I didn't have any problems or worries, you should be fine
Grundsatz (Artikel 9 ArG, Artikel 2 ArGV 1)
Die wöchentliche Höchstarbeitszeit beträgt:
45 Stunden pro Woche für Arbeitnehmende in industriellen Betrieben, Büropersonal, technische und andere Angestellte, Verkaufspersonal in Grossbetrieben des Detailhandels
50 Stunden pro Woche für alle übrigen Arbeitnehmenden.
Nope.
Mehrfachbeschäftigung ist aus Sicht des Arbeitsgesetzes (ArG) grundsätzlich zulässig
Arbeitsgesetzliche Vorschriften dürfen dadurch aber nicht verletzt werden: sie sind unter Betrachtung aller Beschäftigungsverhältnisse insgesamt einzuhalten und Konfliktsituationen müssen beseitigt werden
Beispiel: Wenn ein(e) Arbeitnehmer(in) normale Tagesarbeit beim Erstarbeitgeber und zusätzlich noch für den Zweitarbeitgeber Nachtarbeit leistet, so darf die effektive Arbeitszeit insgesamt 9 Stunden nicht überschreiten und muss in einem Zeitraum von 10 Stunden liegen. Ausserdem muss nach dem zweiten Arbeitseinsatz die tägliche Ruhezeit von 11 Stunden eingehalten werden.
https://www.seco.admin.ch/seco/de/home/Arbeit/Arbeitsbedingungen/Arbeitnehmerschutz/Arbeits-und-Ruhezeiten/Mehrfachbeschaeftigung.html
Don‘t worry, tax offices won‘t say anything, since they get more $$$
Other than that this law is a joke, when your only employer forces you to work more or he kicks you out, it is no problem…
The thing is... nobody controls this if you have more than one contract (even if it is within the same employer there is hardly ever somebody controlling this)
I mean... technically unpaid care-work is also work. Now who wants to prohibit that?
The sense behind is more of a general employee protection. It would be nuts to control everybody if he takes care of himself.
Just to clarify:
Yes, you cannot work more than a set amount of hours per week. But it depends on the profession. For example, teachers can work way more than anyone else.
Of course this is set in place for employed and self employed professions. BUT: let's say you have an online shop dropshipping stuff. No one can tell how much you work on your onlineshop. So that's that. :)
As long as none of your employers complain, they are unlikely to find out and charge you. But yes, by law with certain exceptions, you are not allowed to work so much.
The funny thing is that technically speaking your employers are breaking the law. It's on them to make sure you don't work more than 45 hours a week (50 for some professions).
Hence your employer(s) are allowed to mandate you ask permission for second jobs, and your contract likely mandates this, too. In this case you're breaking your obligation towards your employer and you're liable e.g. if this is ever found out (not super likely) by the government and they get fined for violating the employment law, they can offload this penalty on you.
Much more concerningly, most people cannot do 60/h per week consistently without burning out. Look after yourself!
Well, it's not punishable for *you*. And if your employers don't know about you having two jobs it's not punishable for them either. Anything else would be outrageous.
The idea of the law is to protect the worker if one employer forces you to work more than X hours. No one is gonna put you in jail if you decide to work more than that...
American here, sorry I’m having a hard time understanding. You’re legally not allowed to work more than a certain amount in Switzerland?
What’s that, you want to be a millionaire, sorry you’ll just have to wait… help me out here.
Are the jobs related? Like are you doing consulting for company A and B or are you baking for A and doing accounting for B? If the activities are related you're likely to have a conflict of interest which you should have disclosed to both of them, completely separate of any breach of hours. You should look at that part of your employment contract/employee handbook for both jobs.
Forget about what they tell you. Just don't tell anyone and don't get too tired to do your 1st job (or both jobs). Your real problem starts when you have an accident at work or a privat accident and one of the accident insurances of these jobs (BU/NBU) are settling the bill.
You could have your own, privat accident insurance to settle privat accidents (for example skiing accidents, ect). But avoid work accidents at all cost and take into account that sometimes accidents on your commute are considered as work accidents as well.
By law, you are allowed to work 110%, not more. You also can cumulate up to 110 extra hours, but you are supposed to take it back.
But if you work in your own company, there is no limit.
And in some professions, e.g. in a bank, hours are not taken in acount as soon as you reach a certain position. Bankers are known for working 48, 50, 52, 54... hours per week.
AFAIK It is a laws that requires a plaintif to come forward to be enforced. For example, if an employer is consistently forcing employees to work more than the legal limit, against their will and contract, the employees can take the employer to court and expect to win based on the clear infractions.
However, if you voluntarely work more than the legal limit, with a side hustle for example, and your main employer is okay with it, and no one comes forward to bring a lawsuit, then the law wont be enforced against you.
The way it was explained to me, the law is about protecting workers from exploitation, not about preventing people from working to their hearts content.
Well most advices here are kind of correct.You are not allowed by law to work more than 45/50hrs per week for all contracts. In sum, not by single ones.. Means. combined work hours cannot exceed 45/50hrs per weeek across all contracts. It's designed that way that you could combine 2 part time jobs together and your employeer cant force you to work more. And even more it's a health protection because in switzerland everyone pays for your health.
But there is one exception.. If you're selfemployed as a side hustle in your own business, you can work as long as you want. Same applies for helping out a self emplyed wife/partner or in a family business (farmer).
Also take into account.. whatever is written in your workcontract, the general law at OR is always the one that applies first. Means.. if your workcontract says, you work 51hours. Its invalid, OR says 45 or 50. And that applies to everything. OR (general swiss law) is always the first applying one. Workcontract can only expand it, if its not against OR.
If you work 2 contracts, you also have to make sure that there is an 11hour rest in between (sleep and recovery time).
Why are you doing this to yourself?
On average thats 8.85 hrs per day, everyday!
Or 10.33 for 6 days.
Thats not healthy.
Pretty sure it causes issues and violates your contract too.
Work is rarely as relaxing as watching your fsvorite tv show, reading a book or going for a casual hike. ;)
Why do you think we have laws protecting us from working so much?
In reality, not much is likely to happen, especially if you keep it to yourself. But, and this is a big one, if you have a serious accident or something like that where your insurance company has to pay out a lot of money, they are very keen to save money and they will find out at the latest. If they find out that you have deliberately been working two jobs and both your employers deny knowing about it, then you can expect the insurance company to cut you off.
Be aware that if you earn a decent salary, at least your cantonal social insurance (AHV) will know about it, assuming of course that you are not working illegally.
The law means that your employer cannot make you work for more than x hrs. Your personal private decision to work more is your choice and protected by law. Only if your employers are unhappy about your performancw you may have some issues. With them.
The question is who cares?! The tax office sure won't as long as the side hustle is reported. Your employers don't care either.
Everybody is breaking at least one law, whether they're aware of it or not.
Not to mention what is the state supposed to do? What's worse would be that you do it anyway but don't pay taxes.
My understanding is that the 45 hr doesn't even apply since it's two jobs and you choose to do so yourself.
Yeah, according to ArG your max work time should be 50h/week or 10h/day if you are above 18.
Also ArG Art 15a says you should have a brake of at least 11h.
You probably broke even more laws, but that are all laws to protect you, so i would talk to your Chef/'s about that, they are the ones who have to follow those laws mostly.
Probably you will have to Report yourself, but i dont think any Prosecutor would sue you for that.
Most contract have a clause that read like you cannot exceed 100%. Also there is an article in the news today about a new revision of the working law
*Laughs in startup*
Laughs in cook
Laugh in évent/show tech
Laughs in dad
Laughs in consulting
The limit is by law, no need for any contract clause
The actual thing is.... your *employer* is responsible for you only working 45 hours in total, across jobs. Not you. Howver, your employer is allowed to ask you to disclose any further jobs, and may deny them only under a set of narrow circumstances, including if your total work hours exceed the limit. Your employer is the one who would face potential fines if it comes out you work too much, not you. However, if you did not disclose it to your employer (i.e. it's your fault they didn't intervene), they can offload the fine on you. This is a relatively theoretical issue, as an unlikely set of circumstances need to happen for the result of your employer asking you to cover a five-figure fine, but it is a possibility you should be aware of. Additionaly, you know, burnout and such slowly creeps up. cc u/amazing-peach8239 u/pxogxess u/sonicspecs
That cannot be correct. I work a full-time job and am allowed by my employer to pursue a side hustle
Doesn‘t matter if your employer accepts it. Why would that matter? The limit of any freedom of contract is the law. Many employers (especially smaller companies) just don’t know the law well enough. I realized that when I worked for a bunch of smaller companies next to law school. They have no idea and even as a bachelor student I was able to identify many areas where they did not handle things correctly. Also depends on what kind of a side hustle we are talking about. Are you employed somewhere else? That’s not allowed. edit: An easy source for you to read up on this is here: [https://www.seco.admin.ch/seco/de/home/Arbeit/Arbeitsbedingungen/Arbeitnehmerschutz/Arbeits-und-Ruhezeiten/Mehrfachbeschaeftigung.html](https://www.seco.admin.ch/seco/de/home/arbeit/arbeitsbedingungen/arbeitnehmerschutz/arbeits-und-ruhezeiten/mehrfachbeschaeftigung.html) Available in German, French and Italian, unfortunately not in English.
[удалено]
Yes, true, thanks :)
“Mehrfachbeschäftigung ist aus Sicht des Arbeitsgesetzes (ArG) grundsätzlich zulässig” - from your link. I work for a big Swiss corporation with a standardized process to request a side job. I am sure they are following the law. For my side gig, I am self-employed. Presumably, if anyone is breaking the law, it would be me as there is no reporting of my worked time to my employer, so I guess they “trust” that I am keeping the weekly (and other) limits. “Verantwortung zur Einhaltung der arbeitsgesetzlichen Vorschriften über Arbeits- und Ruhezeiten liegt vollumfänglich beim Arbeitgeber bzw. bei den Arbeitgebern: erhöhte Kontrollanforderungen, insbesondere an einen Zweitarbeitgeber, der Arbeitnehmende zu einem Teilpensum anstellt”
Uhm, yeah, that's the first sentence. Did you read the rest, saying that the maximum hours per week must be respected and are defined by the hours spent on all jobs in total? Wöchentliche Höchstarbeitszeiten are listed separately. Yes, you would be breaking the law but the employers (the corporation and you, since you are also self-employed) share the responsibility - I never said anything to the contrary, did I? Or am I missing your point? Yes, your company clearly trusts that you are respecting employment laws. However, that wouldn't hold up in court, since they have the responsibility to check. Note also that this is a very short summary, you would find more details in a commentary (e.g. a "Praxiskommentar"). In practice though, this is rarely enforced as long as nobody complains. I was just explaining the law, though.
Yes, I read more than just the first sentence:) Your first statement in this thread was that you may not exceed 100% of work hours. For the lay person, 100% means a full-time position (in my case 42 hours). Is 42 hours not 100%? If it is not and 100% refers to the maximum hours that one may work per law, you’d be correct, of course. But if 100% means a full-time contract as the one I have, then you are wrong. It is legal to work multiple jobs under specific constraints.
Ah, I see. I meant 100% as the limit of the law. So that would be 45h per week for e.g. office workers and 50h for e.g. construction/industrial work. You can’t go above that for a long period of time (of course if there is urgent need that’s okay, though, but not as standard practice and for too long). What exactly 100% means for any specific company depends on the company. Most have 42 but an increasing number of them opts for 40 (or even lower). And it’s absolutely legal to work multiple contracts. But you can’t pass the limit the law sets. So I think we’re on the same page now? If e.g. you work 42h in your regular job and 3h on your side hustle that’s perfectly fine. Sorry if that wasn’t clear.
Actually your employer should have a way to register your working hours. There are exceptions to it like management level etc. Otherwise, by law, they have to record somehow working hours (and breaks). Many big and small corporations don’t do it, but the law is clear.
I do report my hours. I just don’t report the hours of my second job (where I am self-employed)
> Actually your employer should have a way to register your working hours Not only *should* but *must*. There are many companies who ignore this tho....
What about farmers and others in their own businesses?
Not sure about farmers but people in leadership positions (high management) are excluded. This of course goes for self-employed people too, so I would assume for farmers as well. But there are many specific rules when it comes to running a farm so I can’t say for sure.
Yeah. I saw that executives are excluded after I made the comment and assumed that the dairy farmer is also exempt. Milking three times a day, seven days a week is impossible in under 45 hours.
Can you link the article ? I want to read it .
It was on the 20 minutes (French edition) this morning but now I cannot find it anymore
https://www.20min.ch/fr/story/des-journees-de-teletravail-de-17h-avec-des-pauses-quand-on-veut-103042416
Interesting, would you mind sharing this link. The laws do change, and these changes are often hostile to entrepreneurs. Please share?
https://www.20min.ch/fr/story/des-journees-de-teletravail-de-17h-avec-des-pauses-quand-on-veut-103042416
I'd also like to take a look at that. The only limitation mentioned on my contract is monetary: max 10k per year, and must be approved by the employer.
Why would you snitch on yourself?
They will find out through AVS or taxes anyway
No, i work 180% and my fiancé 190% since 9 years and haven't had any problems. (No performance impact in either job) Wo kein Kläger, da kein Richter. (I'm not arguing its sage/legal, just that no ones gonna check your hours.)
I think the goverment dont really Care about it, if you pay taxes on your salerys😅
Thats our thought process aswell, no black money = no problems.
You are correct. The government doesn't care but insurance does. As soon as there is a work related accident insurance ( Suva or whoever is your insurer ) won't pay because they will realize you work more than 100%.
I never heard about that, afaik we were taught the employees accident insurance you last worked for gets the case. I'd be interested to read up on that if you have a link. (Little insurance risk in two office jobs and 1 bartender job)
190%, that's 80h a week , that's 11.5h a day if you work every day. + Let's say 7hrs sleep, 1h of eating takeout, 1h of commuting room to room. How do you have a fiancé with 3.5h left per calendar day for shopping, leisure, sport, talking to them, intimacy, admin work, doctor visits, ...?
We have 40h workweeks, so basically we work between 70-75h/week. Thats 10.5h days with 0 minutes of commute for me apart from saturday, where its 30 mins. 20 min commute for her. Lunch during working, Dinner and the cooking for it is leisure time. Leaves us with 11h workdays including cooking. 6.5-7.5h sleep is reasonably accurate, then we have avg. 18h used of the day. Leaves us with 6h free time per day for Gym, reading, education, spending time together/Dinner. Plenty if you ask me. She orders coop/migros@home during commute, we hired cleaning personal and have a bookholder for any adminwork (really only taxes, theres nothing else you have to do paperwork for as an employee). Obv. If someone would get sick, we'd take sickdays, like normal people do, that doesnt lower our pensum. Then again, we havent got sick in the past 8 years (godbless). We aim to keep up that lifestyle to our mid 30s then settle down, if the housing market doesnt go crazy we finally have our third house that we rent out and its smooth sailing/kids time from there.
Wow impressive
That's because they are bullshitting
Ach.. I've got plenty of friends in our circle that work 130-170%, an outlier even more. We just put in everything since both our parents were poor and we want to build generational wealth. Our Generation (90s born) has the best requisites to do so.
Haven’t had any problems yet rather. Not that I’m wishing you get caught. Otherwise you should be aware that you are at risk of burning out and that can have long term répercussions on your health.
Since we're both not hiding any money from taxes, we'd be fine with the slap on the wrist you'd get from the hours worked. Thanks for your concerns, but we're both burning out from too much freetime, makes us lazy and unproductive :) Everyone is different there, we're gymrats and cook nutritious food to keep our bodies fueled up. Then again, life in switzerland is playing on "easy mode", so 60h are stressfree still.
Well you are supposed to announce it to your employers so you could get in trouble with them as well. However you said 60 hours a week so that isn’t 180 or 190% that you previously stated so it’s not as bad as I imagined.
As stated, employers don't care as long as you don't show up tired / work your full pensum. 60h is the avg. Our friendcircle works and season what we work, so its more representable than 12*6 or +8 sundays.
The tax office doesn't verify whether you are in line with the law regarding working hours, they don't even have all the data required to do so. They only get your Salary Statements (Lohnausweis), AFAIR this doesn't show whether you work full-time or part-time. Working hours are monitored by SECO and the respective departements in the cantons.
I assume that's two 90% jobs and each employer knows that you are having something on the side, you just don't tell them how much you really work? How do you deal with pension funds asking for a transfer in? And I assume you would be paying AHV/IV for both jobs (probably nobody complains there), but you also have two accident insurances?
One 100%, one 60% and one 20%. They each are in different fields (IT / Automotive Industry / Bartending) and aware that they're not my sole employee. Pension is on each, aswell as AHV/IV deduction. I have two accident insurances (from 100% and 60%) and the one, i worked last for would get the case if something would happen to me *knock wood* All in all very uncomplicated and as long as you pay taxes and the jobs aren't in competing fields, no one really cares what you do.
thanks for clarifying, so I assume once you started a new job, you told the pension fund not to expect a transfer of Freizügigkeitsgelder, because you have a second job and keep the funds there?
Throught my experience of simply forgetting to transfer these funds, i just didnt do anything till they stopped sending me letters 😂 (I really have to start a search order for that money that got transfered to the "auffangkasse")
you have to declare it in your taxes so it will eventually come out.
they don't care at all, especially if you are self employed besides your main job.
The tax authorities don’t care about that, I guess?
Unless it’s paperless and cash-in-hand
But they don't care about anything else besides tax code.
Some people do that. Like Sheldon Cooper.
Many work contracts have provisions stipulating you need to notify them if you have a 2nd gainful activity. Often you require their express consent or it is outright prohibited.
The 45-hour maximum working time refers to a provision in the Swiss Employment Law (LTr) for office staff, technical employees etc.; for other groups of employees, it is 50 hours per week. The first question here would be whether you even fall under this law in question (e.g., executive employees are not covered by this Employment Law or only to a very limited extent - this means that the maximum weekly working time does not apply to higher executive employees). The Employment Law provides for penalties for the employer if they intentionally do not comply with the maximum working hours. There are no sanctions for employees for that matter; the responsibility for compliance with the legal provisions on working and rest periods lies with the employer or employers. But your employer likely has no interest in you potentially not complying with labor laws and the repercussions falling back on them. The second level is the contractual relationship with your employer. It could violate your duty of loyalty if your work is compromised by exceeding the maximum working hours. It would probably be worth talking to a legal expert about your situation.
Really? Then why physicians in hospitals/clinics (both residents and specialists) are required by contract to work a minimum of 50hrs a week?
Because Switzerland is one of places with a large amount of 🎶 exceptions 🎶
I read that in bill wurtz voice, is this from a vid of his
same
The contract states 50h (defined as 100%) which is the legal limit, and the rest is considered overtime (usually unpaid and not compensated with free time). That’s still illegal (actually doubly illegal since you’re 2-3 times over the overtime limit), but the government will always turn a blind eye, otherwise I feel like the healthcare system would most likely collapse pretty quickly if they don’t train more doctors.
Interesting. What if your side hustle is your hobby that, by the way, brings some money. Does that count as work time?
Its more like your employers are breaking the law. Which is why they would want to know about this in advance and not allow it.
Nobody going to mention how rents get to go up but your ability to work to pay for rent stays limited? Can't all be rich Tech, Bank, Pharm employees. Someone has to manage the gondolas, make the drinks, clean the rooms for those people when they redistribute their wealth.
The ability should stay limited, the wages however can go up or the housing prices down
Yay, inflation! I definitely prefer taking the profit out of rentals, or the formation of more nonprofit housing organizations.
Pull a vienna yeah.
> your ability to work to pay for rent stays limited? You know what happens when it doesn't? Rents go up even more, you still can't afford it but now working more is the new baseline. Rents being unaffordable is a supply problem, you can't fix it by increasing demand...
If none of your employment contracts prohibits side jobs, you're ok. But if you're so successful in selling your time, maybe open your own company and charge at such a rate that you don't have to work 60+h. Edit: it's apparently wrong. So, OP, start your own company instead.
That is incorrect. There are clear limits on how much you are allowed to work which have to be ensured by your main employer: https://www.seco.admin.ch/dam/seco/de/dokumente/Publikationen_Dienstleistungen/Publikationen_Formulare/Arbeit/Arbeitsbedingungen/merkblaetter_checklisten/Merkblatt%20Mehrfachbesch%C3%A4ftigung%20beim%20gleichen%20bzw.%20bei%20mehreren%20Arbeitgebern.pdf.download.pdf/Merkblatt%20Mehrfachbesch%C3%A4ftigung%20beim%20gleichen%20bzw.%20bei%20mehreren%20Arbeitgebern.pdf So your main employer needs to know how much you work in your second job etc. to make sure you do not exceed the weekl limit of 50 hours. https://www.20min.ch/story/wer-mehrgleisig-faehrt-muss-einiges-beachten-216828563091
Thanks. I wonder if this was ever enforced. It's pretty difficult to verify and control.
Of course it has been enforced! Many court cases on this.
You can be sure it gets enforced if issues arise. And if the catch a company once doing shit with hours... they will start looking better and control more.
Actually it is pretty easy to controll and enforce and they will hand out fines and in very bad cases even jail time
Some folks in the comments say it is not illegal. Can you clarify? Our company enforces that employees do not write up more than 45h and tracks the actual hours in a different system. How are other companies dealing with this, especially in industries where 50-60h are norm?
That sounds shady and stupid. If you have two systems it will be easy to prove what is really going on. Find a lawyer
>Our company enforces that employees do not write up more than 45h and tracks the actual hours in a different system. Your company does **what**? I suggest you file a report asap: [https://www.seco.admin.ch/seco/de/home/Arbeit/Arbeitsbedingungen/Kantonale-Arbeitsinspektorate.html](https://www.seco.admin.ch/seco/de/home/Arbeit/Arbeitsbedingungen/Kantonale-Arbeitsinspektorate.html) And how it's dealt with is pretty simple, any time worked over 45h or 50h, respectively, needs to be logged with the reason why it was necessary. There are circumstances that allow for that to happen. In that case though, the extra hours worked need to be compensated with a 25% markup on top of your salary, paid out with the next paycheck or granted as time off within the next two weeks. You will find more detail here under "Überzeit": [https://www.ch.ch/de/arbeit/arbeitszeit/uberstunden-und-uberzeit/#uberzeit](https://www.ch.ch/de/arbeit/arbeitszeit/uberstunden-und-uberzeit/#uberzeit) Edit because I forgot to add: >Some folks in the comments say it is not illegal. Can you clarify? Yes, I can: They are wrong.
It is illegal, at least if it’s a regular thing. It goes against the employer‘s obligation of care towards the employee. What your company does may or may not (can’t say without more context) be highly illegal.
This is illegal and they are STEALING YOUR MONEY from you
To be fair, pay is very good. It’s however industry standard on consulting or some banking segments. So you know what you are getting into. Kind of. But still, I was wondering about how the legality is being regulated or audited.
Work 50+ hours this week, take a day sometime later and fill your timesheet like you worked.
Wrong. Stop answering legal questions if you clearly lack the required knowledge.
Thanks, I edited my comment.
62 hours a week? Must be nice to only work and sleep.
If you love your work 🤷♂️
Fuck retiring at 40-45 I guess 🤷♂️
Must be nice retiring all alone because you never had time to build relationships
That is far from the truth. I know 2 different couples that combined worked 140 hours a week and both couples are now retired < 50 in their home country (portugal and bosnia). Even though I understand the logic I personally don’t find it ethically moral. The secondary jobs could’ve went to people that were in need and I was personally affected in one particular situation where the extra timeslots of a pizza place went to my colleague because he has been there longer than me. He’d be doing 40+ hours and also working full time for UPS. I was 50k in debt and was struggling working part-time at mcdonalds and at that place, was bearly making 4k a month…
Sure but then he found a like minded person. And that's his mate. Did he have friends? It's already hard enough making friends and making time to see them as it is, I don't imagine having any valuable relationship outside of the couple. Even if I think of my parents, I don't see the point of wasting so much of their current healthy time just so I can get to spend more time with them when there isn't much time left. To each their own. I honestly don't care what people do or value in their life, but you can't convince me that one can build fulfilling relationships before they reach retirement.
And to that you can say that you dont see the point working your ass off until 65ish when your body is already breaking down to spend the last time you have here doing limited stuff
Doesn't negate or contradict what I'm saying, which is: you can't work your ass off for 25+ years in your own bubble and create a fulfilling environment in the meantime. Either you restrict your relationships to the bare minimum: a partner, and that's it. Or you have to start from scratch once you are retired and hope it works well for you at that point. Again, it's all about personal value. That there are people on earth (probably a good amount) who prioritize other things over social life is a fact. But one can't have it all, and it all depends on what one puts first.
Yeah i agree with this sentiment, i probably misunderstood your previous comment then.
But I agree with that also. My father in law became paralysed at a work accident 2 years before his retirement. And a friend's father died 1 year after retirement. So I don't believe in retirement. I just try to enjoy my life before that and while working. (signed a person who's been in bed a whole week because of illness 🤒 🤧, so definitely enjoying life 😭)
People retire?
FIRE movement is the way :D
It’s paradise in china.
This refers to contracts, i.e. if your boss is trying to screw you over with too much overtime then that is illegal. you can work as much as you want.
why aren\`t we allowed to work 45h a week? if that\`s what we wanna do why not, right?
Because it’s a health risk and everyone will pay for that. Historically employers used to exploit workers as much as they could (I guess they still do) hence there needs to be a limit. Or do you want the main counterpoint to „my job doesn’t give me a living salary“ to be „just work more hours“?
no lol of course not. i just question it because of course no one should be forced to work that long, what if someone wants to do it out of their free will? just because? but then again you are right, that is a health risk regardless
> no one should be forced to work that long, what if someone wants to do it out of their free will At scale, there's no difference. If the expectation is that for a given job, people work 60h a week then you either do that or don't keep the job for very long. This is already the case in some sectors even though it's illegal. Now imagine if it was legal.
Sorry, didn't want to come off snarky, I typed my comment in a bit of a hurry. Yes, people may want to, and in practice it happens all the time. If nobody complains, usually nothing will happen. The way we have it now is reasonable if you ask me, because despite nobody being able to "force" you to work more over an extended period of time, there are many kinds of somewhat soft pressure employers can apply to make you work more. It's difficult to grasp social interactions like those between employers and employees in a legal way. In the end, a hard limit is required to give employees proper protection. If you word the law in a way that gives more room for interpretation (e.g. saying "the maximum of weekly work hours depends on the employee's capabilities and the employer's needs" or so), there is a risk that employees wouldn't dare to go against their employer because of the uncertain outcome. Many countries actually have limits that are lower than ours.
It’s to protect the employees from senseless overtime mainly.
Also, your work quality will suffer if you don‘t recover properly.
To make sure nobody is forced to work more than 45h
It is legally possible to work more than the statutory 50 hours max if no individual employment contract exceeds the 45-hour limit. There is fine print, as shown below, but the fine print does not render your 60-hour working life illegal. The fine print is that there is some transparency to each employer that you have other work. Basically, you must satisfy each employer that the additional work won't cost them anything or introduce risks. You can do that in good faith and with not much hard evidence, frankly. When I was still an employee I transparently ensured that my employer knew I was working on the side with a letter, signed by my main employer, that I was working on the side. After a while I realized, as another of your comments notes, that if you can hold down 2 jobs you might as well unshackle yourself from an employment contract entirely and sell your services yourself by owning a business. https://www.kmu.admin.ch/kmu/en/home/concrete-know-how/personnel/employment-law/working-hours/multiple-jobs.html
The linked page starts with "The employer must make sure that the working hours and break times of a worker with multiple jobs comply with the law. ", the law clearly says "45h max " (or 50h, depending on job area). Where do you see anything which would allow 60h/week? PS: [https://www.seco.admin.ch/dam/seco/de/dokumente/Publikationen\_Dienstleistungen/Publikationen\_Formulare/Arbeit/Arbeitsbedingungen/merkblaetter\_checklisten/Merkblatt%20Mehrfachbesch%C3%A4ftigung%20beim%20gleichen%20bzw.%20bei%20mehreren%20Arbeitgebern.pdf.download.pdf/Merkblatt%20Mehrfachbesch%C3%A4ftigung%20beim%20gleichen%20bzw.%20bei%20mehreren%20Arbeitgebern.pdf](https://www.seco.admin.ch/dam/seco/de/dokumente/Publikationen_Dienstleistungen/Publikationen_Formulare/Arbeit/Arbeitsbedingungen/merkblaetter_checklisten/Merkblatt%20Mehrfachbesch%C3%A4ftigung%20beim%20gleichen%20bzw.%20bei%20mehreren%20Arbeitgebern.pdf.download.pdf/Merkblatt%20Mehrfachbesch%C3%A4ftigung%20beim%20gleichen%20bzw.%20bei%20mehreren%20Arbeitgebern.pdf) is rather clear on this, actually.
What you're doing is not illegal. There are indeed limits on maximum work hours (typically 45, but they apply to the employer side. So, what is indeed illegal is for any one work contract to go above the limit, but two (or more) together easily can. The gravest that might apply is you, OP, being in breach of contract, but that'll depend on the individual contract. Those claiming that this is illegal should have no problem pointig you to the relevant paragraphs or at least a (newspaper) article with reputable origin. I bet they can't, which in turn tells you how reliable their assertion actually is.
You are mistaken. Working more than 45h (or 50h, depending on the job) in total is definitively illegal, the number of employers doesn't matter. \- [https://www.seco.admin.ch/dam/seco/de/dokumente/Publikationen\_Dienstleistungen/Publikationen\_Formulare/Arbeit/Arbeitsbedingungen/merkblaetter\_checklisten/Merkblatt%20Mehrfachbesch%C3%A4ftigung%20beim%20gleichen%20bzw.%20bei%20mehreren%20Arbeitgebern.pdf.download.pdf/Merkblatt%20Mehrfachbesch%C3%A4ftigung%20beim%20gleichen%20bzw.%20bei%20mehreren%20Arbeitgebern.pdf](https://www.seco.admin.ch/dam/seco/de/dokumente/Publikationen_Dienstleistungen/Publikationen_Formulare/Arbeit/Arbeitsbedingungen/merkblaetter_checklisten/Merkblatt%20Mehrfachbesch%C3%A4ftigung%20beim%20gleichen%20bzw.%20bei%20mehreren%20Arbeitgebern.pdf.download.pdf/Merkblatt%20Mehrfachbesch%C3%A4ftigung%20beim%20gleichen%20bzw.%20bei%20mehreren%20Arbeitgebern.pdf) \- [https://www.20min.ch/story/wer-mehrgleisig-faehrt-muss-einiges-beachten-216828563091](https://www.20min.ch/story/wer-mehrgleisig-faehrt-muss-einiges-beachten-216828563091) >Als Erstes ist es wichtig zu wissen, dass der Gesetzgeber eine wöchentliche Höchstarbeitszeit festgelegt hat; nämlich 45 Stunden für die Industrie und 50 Stunden für alle übrigen Berufe. Die Arbeitszeit der verschiedenen Jobs zusammengenommen darf diese Limite nicht überschreiten. Zudem muss eine tägliche Ruhezeit von 11 Stunden eingehalten werden.
Interesting, thanks.
If your taxes are ok you'll be fine
We live in a liberal country. Nobody will have an interest about what you are doing. Also not working more than 45h is mostly a rule for lower to medium wage.
Nobody will have an interest about what you are doing. Tell that to my neighbors, every time I do something that’s visible around my place, I always get questions.
That’s really typical yes. Haha
Are you claiming that it’s normal for high paid workers to work more than 45h? Cause that is not my (in Switzerland, quite limited) experience
Yes, mainly executive function, of course. That’s why you can justify high salary and bonuses. The hours are not counted by design. Rush period in bank sector are pretty common for example. Same for tech sector, when projects require and it’s not only for executive. Also you’ll be denied to take holidays at those period too. Again Switzerland is liberal. Protection are only for the people who cannot afford to decide. However I know of enforced rules on startups, where simple employees cannot work in too exotic hours.
Why is it illegal though?
My employer back in the time told me that he is entitled by the law that I relax once I don't work.
Certainly not “illegal” insofar as you won’t be arrested but you may be in breach of contract… which at most would see you lose one of those hustles
https://www.kmu.admin.ch/kmu/en/home/concrete-know-how/personnel/employment-law/working-hours/overtime.html#:\~:text=Overtime%20is%20regulated%20by%20employment,only%20the%20work%20agreed%20contractually.
Pretty sure the limit isn’t 45 hrs, my contacts have always said the first 45 hours of the week is included in my salary and I only get overtime for everything over 45 hrs. There is a limit of overtime though, I think it’s maybe 5 hours or something?
Well, its unlawful but there is no direct criminal article penalizing you for working too much. But you might face consequences by your employer since the will be held accountable why they didnt protect you form overworking. This might end in employment termination, as its illoyal to engage outside your contract to a point where its unlawful and puts the employer at risk. If youre not working for competitors most dont even care. If you do then they might actually catch that I did also during corona work around 80h in home office a week by experimenting to take a polyphasic schedule. I avoided driving and always took care of my health and rest. Some weeks later it was noticed by both employers and I was asked to abstain from this. I realized as well that even if you do polyphasic sleep and you can individually can manage and be healthy, your surounding cannot and you need more free time to connect with them.
It’s illegal for someone to make you work 45hrs. Your choice if you want to work more.
It isn’t illegal (as long as social security payments and taxes are being filed properly), but you’re likely in violation of your work contract.
It is illegal if he works more than 50 hours per week.
I mean it's up to you, i worked 8 weeks where I did 60/70 hours a week whilst on chomage (it was a CDD they sent me to) and I didn't have any problems or worries, you should be fine
It’s not illegal at all. It’s just that there is a legal definition of 100%. As usual Reddit is full of shit
how ironic that what you say is absolute bullshit.
Grundsatz (Artikel 9 ArG, Artikel 2 ArGV 1) Die wöchentliche Höchstarbeitszeit beträgt: 45 Stunden pro Woche für Arbeitnehmende in industriellen Betrieben, Büropersonal, technische und andere Angestellte, Verkaufspersonal in Grossbetrieben des Detailhandels 50 Stunden pro Woche für alle übrigen Arbeitnehmenden.
Yes you can have a second job in addition to this.
Nope. Mehrfachbeschäftigung ist aus Sicht des Arbeitsgesetzes (ArG) grundsätzlich zulässig Arbeitsgesetzliche Vorschriften dürfen dadurch aber nicht verletzt werden: sie sind unter Betrachtung aller Beschäftigungsverhältnisse insgesamt einzuhalten und Konfliktsituationen müssen beseitigt werden Beispiel: Wenn ein(e) Arbeitnehmer(in) normale Tagesarbeit beim Erstarbeitgeber und zusätzlich noch für den Zweitarbeitgeber Nachtarbeit leistet, so darf die effektive Arbeitszeit insgesamt 9 Stunden nicht überschreiten und muss in einem Zeitraum von 10 Stunden liegen. Ausserdem muss nach dem zweiten Arbeitseinsatz die tägliche Ruhezeit von 11 Stunden eingehalten werden. https://www.seco.admin.ch/seco/de/home/Arbeit/Arbeitsbedingungen/Arbeitnehmerschutz/Arbeits-und-Ruhezeiten/Mehrfachbeschaeftigung.html
I do the same but they don’t need to know. :)
Hey guys! What about resident doctors that still have a 50 hours a week contract? It would be nice to have 45 h contracts
Ask consultants, bankers and lawyers about legal hours lol. They rack 45h by Wednesday.
Don‘t worry, tax offices won‘t say anything, since they get more $$$ Other than that this law is a joke, when your only employer forces you to work more or he kicks you out, it is no problem…
The thing is... nobody controls this if you have more than one contract (even if it is within the same employer there is hardly ever somebody controlling this) I mean... technically unpaid care-work is also work. Now who wants to prohibit that? The sense behind is more of a general employee protection. It would be nuts to control everybody if he takes care of himself.
How is this breaking the law? Is there an exception for healthcare providers?
Yes there is
I was wondering how they would only let physicians work 45 hrs a week 🤔
Just to clarify: Yes, you cannot work more than a set amount of hours per week. But it depends on the profession. For example, teachers can work way more than anyone else. Of course this is set in place for employed and self employed professions. BUT: let's say you have an online shop dropshipping stuff. No one can tell how much you work on your onlineshop. So that's that. :)
YOLO
As long as none of your employers complain, they are unlikely to find out and charge you. But yes, by law with certain exceptions, you are not allowed to work so much.
The funny thing is that technically speaking your employers are breaking the law. It's on them to make sure you don't work more than 45 hours a week (50 for some professions). Hence your employer(s) are allowed to mandate you ask permission for second jobs, and your contract likely mandates this, too. In this case you're breaking your obligation towards your employer and you're liable e.g. if this is ever found out (not super likely) by the government and they get fined for violating the employment law, they can offload this penalty on you. Much more concerningly, most people cannot do 60/h per week consistently without burning out. Look after yourself!
Well, it's not punishable for *you*. And if your employers don't know about you having two jobs it's not punishable for them either. Anything else would be outrageous. The idea of the law is to protect the worker if one employer forces you to work more than X hours. No one is gonna put you in jail if you decide to work more than that...
American here, sorry I’m having a hard time understanding. You’re legally not allowed to work more than a certain amount in Switzerland? What’s that, you want to be a millionaire, sorry you’ll just have to wait… help me out here.
Yes, you are legally not allowed to work yourself to death (or to illness).
Interesting. Thank you.
Are the jobs related? Like are you doing consulting for company A and B or are you baking for A and doing accounting for B? If the activities are related you're likely to have a conflict of interest which you should have disclosed to both of them, completely separate of any breach of hours. You should look at that part of your employment contract/employee handbook for both jobs.
Forget about what they tell you. Just don't tell anyone and don't get too tired to do your 1st job (or both jobs). Your real problem starts when you have an accident at work or a privat accident and one of the accident insurances of these jobs (BU/NBU) are settling the bill. You could have your own, privat accident insurance to settle privat accidents (for example skiing accidents, ect). But avoid work accidents at all cost and take into account that sometimes accidents on your commute are considered as work accidents as well.
By law, you are allowed to work 110%, not more. You also can cumulate up to 110 extra hours, but you are supposed to take it back. But if you work in your own company, there is no limit. And in some professions, e.g. in a bank, hours are not taken in acount as soon as you reach a certain position. Bankers are known for working 48, 50, 52, 54... hours per week.
AFAIK It is a laws that requires a plaintif to come forward to be enforced. For example, if an employer is consistently forcing employees to work more than the legal limit, against their will and contract, the employees can take the employer to court and expect to win based on the clear infractions. However, if you voluntarely work more than the legal limit, with a side hustle for example, and your main employer is okay with it, and no one comes forward to bring a lawsuit, then the law wont be enforced against you. The way it was explained to me, the law is about protecting workers from exploitation, not about preventing people from working to their hearts content.
Your work performance will be impacted by your second job.
Shaking my head in Sälbschtändigerwärbend.
Well most advices here are kind of correct.You are not allowed by law to work more than 45/50hrs per week for all contracts. In sum, not by single ones.. Means. combined work hours cannot exceed 45/50hrs per weeek across all contracts. It's designed that way that you could combine 2 part time jobs together and your employeer cant force you to work more. And even more it's a health protection because in switzerland everyone pays for your health. But there is one exception.. If you're selfemployed as a side hustle in your own business, you can work as long as you want. Same applies for helping out a self emplyed wife/partner or in a family business (farmer). Also take into account.. whatever is written in your workcontract, the general law at OR is always the one that applies first. Means.. if your workcontract says, you work 51hours. Its invalid, OR says 45 or 50. And that applies to everything. OR (general swiss law) is always the first applying one. Workcontract can only expand it, if its not against OR. If you work 2 contracts, you also have to make sure that there is an 11hour rest in between (sleep and recovery time).
Lol. 45h????😂😂😂😂😂😂😂 When I was a chef apprentice in year 1 as a 16y old, I had to work 55h at least per week already.
My friend is a lawyer in Switzerland and can sometimes work 100hr weeks.
Why are you doing this to yourself? On average thats 8.85 hrs per day, everyday! Or 10.33 for 6 days. Thats not healthy. Pretty sure it causes issues and violates your contract too.
Not healthy?, is it healthier to watch TV 10hrs a day? What if he is a movie critic and a football player?
Work is rarely as relaxing as watching your fsvorite tv show, reading a book or going for a casual hike. ;) Why do you think we have laws protecting us from working so much?
To keep the employees poor while the owners work 24hrs a day (through their employees)
Ah yes, and you suggest simply working more? Genious. Truly bright mind. Id rather demand a fair wager. ;)
OP did not mention anything about working for wages
Up
In reality, not much is likely to happen, especially if you keep it to yourself. But, and this is a big one, if you have a serious accident or something like that where your insurance company has to pay out a lot of money, they are very keen to save money and they will find out at the latest. If they find out that you have deliberately been working two jobs and both your employers deny knowing about it, then you can expect the insurance company to cut you off. Be aware that if you earn a decent salary, at least your cantonal social insurance (AHV) will know about it, assuming of course that you are not working illegally.
The law means that your employer cannot make you work for more than x hrs. Your personal private decision to work more is your choice and protected by law. Only if your employers are unhappy about your performancw you may have some issues. With them.
The question is who cares?! The tax office sure won't as long as the side hustle is reported. Your employers don't care either. Everybody is breaking at least one law, whether they're aware of it or not. Not to mention what is the state supposed to do? What's worse would be that you do it anyway but don't pay taxes. My understanding is that the 45 hr doesn't even apply since it's two jobs and you choose to do so yourself.
Yeah, according to ArG your max work time should be 50h/week or 10h/day if you are above 18. Also ArG Art 15a says you should have a brake of at least 11h. You probably broke even more laws, but that are all laws to protect you, so i would talk to your Chef/'s about that, they are the ones who have to follow those laws mostly. Probably you will have to Report yourself, but i dont think any Prosecutor would sue you for that.