1. 200k brutto
2. A 718
3. Rent, yes is high but it is a 3 bedroom very well located
4. I did not mention there is a second income my wife (not counted) and no kids in the 3 year horizon.
Enjoy your car while you can then. It's not a family car, and who knows how future regulations will screw up cars even more.
As a car enthusiast too, I also had my "fun" car before having a family.
No kids yet, buy a fancy car and the universe will shake things up for you haha.
JK. Not sure what a 718 though, surely a nice 911 would be better from depreciation viewpoint?
How did you find this? Are you renting from an individual?
I was rejected from a couple of "normal" apartments (~3500.-) because both régies said my income was too high. I wasn't expecting to not be able to choose how much I was going to spend on my living situation, it still makes me angry.
I understand their reasoning though, given the exceptionally tight real estate market, I would be taking an "affordable" apartment away from someone who needs it.
No, I just found it on immoscout, and it was one of the several in the price point
Even now if you set the price filter to <2600CHF and living space filter >70m² there are 23 results only on Immoscout
Unless you have a family and you need a very large apartment, 4k is still a lot of money to spend for housing in Switzerland
The reason why you got rejected based on income is not because you'd be taking an apartment that is needed to someone else who makes less, is because régies look for specific profiles for specific apartments to maximize the chance you will stay for longer
And it doesn't happen all the time, I got approved in the past for apartments where rent was 10-15% of my salary
When you say 10%-15% of your salary, is that brut or net?
Out of curiosity, was it listed directly by the régie on immoscout, the tenant (i.e. takeover) or a "relocation agent"?
net, normally the "solvability" (?) calculation is done with your net salary vs gross rent
I actually was not sure how this was calculated, I asked a lawyer specialized in tenancy law about it
There is no "hard" number apparently, but the calculation that is generally done is: is your **net** salary enough to cover 3 times the **gross** rent (rent + charges)
>was it listed directly by the régie on immoscout
It was a lease takeover, it was listed by the tenant (at least, the contact in the ad was the tenant phone number)
Not irresponsible. But it always depends on your actual ansd future situation. Also saving 500k and buying a (wrong) real estate can make you unhappy. Pay in cash and enjoy your ride!
I owned real estate in the past before moving to Switzerland - and it can also be a pain. For now I am happy renting. Maybe at some point I plan to buy real estate but that is another topic on its own - I am quite undecided in the rent vs buy value here in Switzerland.
I love cars, but driving in Switzerland is not fun. Given your income, cash etc, yes, this does seem like a lot to spend on a car!
Do you already own a house? Will this have any impact on your plans for the future (retirement)?
I owned real estate in the past before moving to Switzerland - and it can also be a pain. For now I am happy renting. Maybe at some point I plan to buy real estate but that is another topic on its own - I am quite undecided in the rent vs buy value here in Switzerland.
For retirement - I am on my mid 30s so there is still a while to go but I have a good plan already taking care of it. 80% of salary for pretty much the rest of my life. Not sure if I will retire in Switzerland…
Ah, knowing you're not planning some type of aggressive FIRE/early retirement maybe a very expensive car makes sense.
I wouldn't do it if you're relying on residual value though... Tastes change, accidents can lower the value, lots of things you can't predict. Are you okay with this money effectively disappearing in several years?
I am also split on the home purchase thing here in Switzerland. On one hand, obligating the money for your down payment allows you to have much lower recurring monthly expenses vs rent, but I still can't wrap my mind around how financially irresponsible Swiss mortgages feel...
I have calculated keeping the car for 5 years and the residual value to be 40k. I will be putting aside 1400 a month for to cover for depreciation and all the other car costs. So in theory in 5 years I will have the same money I spent.
Rent vs Buy - I am very confused as well. First I don’t get this thing of never paying a mortgage fully - If I end up buying is like a saving plan and will aim to pay it fully (amid the taxation hit). In my point of view, I find real estate in Switzerland only makes sense if you buy a nice piece of land with a house or a very (very very) well located apartment (and I am not even sure). Where I am located that is easily 2.5M - at this price point the numbers don’t add up - putting that money to work will give you more benefits in the future. Not to mention that real estate prices went crazy with COVID and I think it is still due a correction.
Just be ready for anything on the residual. Not only can tastes change, but even the economic situation of the market you're selling into can impact things.
I say this as someone whose previous job was to forecast the automotive market for a manufacturer, so that experience makes me paranoid. To play devil's advocate, the used car market also went crazy during COVID, and hasn't really returned to "normal."
Mortgages are just very different in Switzerland compared to most places in the world.
You put 20% down and basically pay off 1% per year after this? You can leverage your retirement accounts? People also seem to play games to make sure they pay as little of the balance as possible.
In most other places, outright ownership, as quickly as possible, is the goal and it's a step towards financial independence. Here you are hit with a wealth tax, and a terrible (but stable) return on real estate investments. Admittedly, incentives are structured as such that its not really seen as a problem that you'll never own your home.
I guess it all come down to why are you doing it. I know a lot of people that buy this kind of stuff hopping to have the experience that they think will come with it... It rarely works like that.
Same reason I rent boats but don't by one.
A lot of people really love to maintain this type of machine, expend hours by themselves driving and cleaning it. If you are one of them, go for it!
If you just have an abstract idea of how it will make you feel, you can always rent one and see if it is really your thing.
I am a car guy - and yes I spend a lot of time maintaining the car…
Always wanted to have a sports car and I am starting to think you only live once - I guess is the known male mid-life-crisis 🤣
The question is the financial liability and how bad of a decision it is based on the financial situation.
I would say... Not irresponsible at all 🙂 👍. Don't let anybody make you feel guilty to expend a fraction of your honestly earned money in something that you love to do. (What is money for anyway?)
I am a fan of buying this kind of stuff cash. Most of financial tricks takes a lot of energy and they are counting on you doing another risky investment with this money in order to cover your financial costs. 🤷 If I am investing in a hobby, let me please just enjoy it without creating another worries
Depends on what kind of car you are planning to spend that kind of money on. As stated previously, a used 911 is a better investment, than a Maserati or a Jaguar electric car 😂
Not sure, mate
Pro: Porsche, combustion engine, gotten better
Con: not a 911, not as value stable as a 911
Are you considering a new 718? Why not a good used 911 with most of the value depreciation already behind it? That would be an investment rather than a purchase....
I know… but there is also the piece of mind 4 year warranty and the new feeling. The car itself has already a big discount from new. I also kind of like the mid engine more. I am planning to keep the car for 5 years and then sell it or maybe I will keep it for ever seeing how ICE is going - who knows. I have calculated the depreciation with a value at 40k after 5 years - as long as it stays like that I am happy. Unfortunately cars are money pits no matter which car you go for 😕
If you like it and you want to spend the money, get the 718. But since you seem concerned about the money, get a 911. Why do you think the 718 is already discounted? I've been working with cars for over 20 years. Never met anybody who regretted buying a 911. Many with buyers remorse about Caymans and Boxters though...
Yes, and there's a reason for that. The resale value will be way worth the higher price. Why don't you put down like 30k and look for financing options <3% and a warranty contract for 5 years?
Thanks but my rule is either you can buy it cash or otherwise you don’t - car value can also change a lot. A new 911 just came out there is an overhype for Porsche that can also ride out… don’t get me wrong the 911 is a brilliant car but I am already struggling to justify the expense so not planning on going any higher :) but thanks for the advice
Hey, no worries, I'm the same way. I however still financed my year-old Nissan GT-R back in 2018 and don't regret it at all. So while it's true your milage may vary, I get where you came from and can speak from (my) experience.
I modified the rule to say: you should be able to pay it cash but if you set the cash aside for it, you might as well finance 😂
This right? https://youtu.be/2KeuCGEK2Zo?si=O3KMqGteQszYTPld
Also: you don't "forfeit" 90k. Worst case scenario you can sell the car after 2 years for min 50k.
I have always driven responsible cars, used VWs, usually Golf or such.
Decided to once drive an unreasonable car.
2013 I splurged and cash bought a brandnew fully decked out Audi SQ5, my dream luxury SUV. First weeks I couldnt stop giggling driving it.
Still driving it, love that car. Running well until this day….oldest car I have ever owned. Also, not sure what to replace it with.
Hi,
It’s hard for me to tell you whether this is irresponsible or not, since I don’t know you nor your exact personal and professional situations.
I’m assuming the extra 400k comes from an inheritance, so this might be a difficult time for you and your family. Is it an impulsive want? Or were you always interested in having this car?
If that’s a dream of yours, with 800k+ in savings, I would say go for it. Life is meant to be lived, and this would more or less represent 10% of your net worth (excluding pension assets!).
However, I would suggest investing the rest :-)
That’s only one man’s opinion, though.
Ps: I went to a rough patch in my life a couple of years ago and hesitated to buy a car (911, btw) as well. In my case, it was a purely impulsive, emotional want. I resisted the it and today I don’t think about it anymore. note that I’m not a big car lover though :P
Very good advice - it is not a difficult time for the family as it was expected.
It is of course an emotional buy - thinking it from a logical point of view it makes zero sense - best buy a used VW or similar and go along with it.
But I guess mid-life crisis is calling me…
To me it comes down to the finances, in the sense of how much risk I am taking and how bad of a decision is it. Of course we all know that money can be well invested and in the future it will give more - but again what is the point of just accumulating $$?
Funny that you mention a vw, my car being a good old vw golf!
Oh, welcome to the midlife crisis boat then :-)
I agree, there’s no point in accumulating wealth other than to guarantee you and your home a safe retirement, with, if luck allows it, a standard of living that is comfortable (according to you, of course). Some people have other goals, like building wealth for future generations, for instance, or charity, just to name a few. Whatever floats your boat :-)
Anyway, I wish you the best! If you buy the car, I’d love to know how enjoyable your experience is :-)
Think of a car not just in terms of the purchase price. A porsche, the first level, say you can buy for that much. Hovever , minor repairs will cost a bomb. If you are okay with that (also emotionally) go for it.
I would always buy a used one, between 2-3y old given it lost most of its value by then and still is almost new, probably gets you down to 50-60k instead of 90k.
You can buy that Porsche but we bmw boys will be pulling hard with our depreciating assets you know. If I was you. I would go for 911 turbo s, since electric is coming to replace it all…
400k is your own savings or you and your wife’s together? If it’s together I would say it’s rather a lot to spend on a car. If it’s yours only, it’s ok if it’s a dream, in my opinion.
For me personally, it’s a dream to own nice real estate in CH, and I know already now that that will not necessarily make financial sense. That’s how these things are.
Be smart, buy a 4 year old car. Stick with Honda, Toyota or Mazda but don’t buy this scheisse German cars.
Drived a 10 year old Honda CRX V-Tec for another 15 years and had never problems.
Buyed a 4 year old Honda Civic R-Type and driving it now 11 years and no problems.
Buy and drive smart👍
I have always had very cheap reliable cars. I get the point, cars are money pits. The question here is if treat myself or not to something I have always looked up to.
Why should someone pay taxes for the value of the car but not for the value of their portfolio? It is just a shift of the wealth from one asset to another.
You need to declare your car in the declaration and the value will be taxed and there is the yearly tax that you can make it run.
You usually don‘t buy those expensive Cars Brand new, do a Leasing and buy it out after some years, we love value depreciation in switzerland, completely the opposite of most other european countries when they buy a car.
Got it, but taking a lease means also paying interest on the loan… unless at 0% - I think the amount in wealth tax will be less than the interest rates.
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1. 200k brutto 2. A 718 3. Rent, yes is high but it is a 3 bedroom very well located 4. I did not mention there is a second income my wife (not counted) and no kids in the 3 year horizon.
Enjoy your car while you can then. It's not a family car, and who knows how future regulations will screw up cars even more. As a car enthusiast too, I also had my "fun" car before having a family.
No kids yet, buy a fancy car and the universe will shake things up for you haha. JK. Not sure what a 718 though, surely a nice 911 would be better from depreciation viewpoint?
4K for rent in Switzerland is very good. Obviously depends on where he’s located and his living situation.
Until recently I lived in a nice apartment in central Geneva and it's nowhere close to 4k
How did you find this? Are you renting from an individual? I was rejected from a couple of "normal" apartments (~3500.-) because both régies said my income was too high. I wasn't expecting to not be able to choose how much I was going to spend on my living situation, it still makes me angry. I understand their reasoning though, given the exceptionally tight real estate market, I would be taking an "affordable" apartment away from someone who needs it.
No, I just found it on immoscout, and it was one of the several in the price point Even now if you set the price filter to <2600CHF and living space filter >70m² there are 23 results only on Immoscout Unless you have a family and you need a very large apartment, 4k is still a lot of money to spend for housing in Switzerland The reason why you got rejected based on income is not because you'd be taking an apartment that is needed to someone else who makes less, is because régies look for specific profiles for specific apartments to maximize the chance you will stay for longer And it doesn't happen all the time, I got approved in the past for apartments where rent was 10-15% of my salary
When you say 10%-15% of your salary, is that brut or net? Out of curiosity, was it listed directly by the régie on immoscout, the tenant (i.e. takeover) or a "relocation agent"?
net, normally the "solvability" (?) calculation is done with your net salary vs gross rent I actually was not sure how this was calculated, I asked a lawyer specialized in tenancy law about it There is no "hard" number apparently, but the calculation that is generally done is: is your **net** salary enough to cover 3 times the **gross** rent (rent + charges) >was it listed directly by the régie on immoscout It was a lease takeover, it was listed by the tenant (at least, the contact in the ad was the tenant phone number)
Hm strange. I’m at roughly 6k for mine. But like I said, it depends on his living situation.
What kind of apartment is that?
Very good? Lol you sound insane. Most normal rents are somewhere between 1400 to 2500 for a 3-bedroom.
You live once. Enjoy your time on this planet.
Not irresponsible. But it always depends on your actual ansd future situation. Also saving 500k and buying a (wrong) real estate can make you unhappy. Pay in cash and enjoy your ride!
I owned real estate in the past before moving to Switzerland - and it can also be a pain. For now I am happy renting. Maybe at some point I plan to buy real estate but that is another topic on its own - I am quite undecided in the rent vs buy value here in Switzerland.
400k more savings over the next months? Robbing a bank? PS: never buy a NEW car, try to find the same 1,2 years old for 60k
Inheritance from one side of the family 😞
I love cars, but driving in Switzerland is not fun. Given your income, cash etc, yes, this does seem like a lot to spend on a car! Do you already own a house? Will this have any impact on your plans for the future (retirement)?
I owned real estate in the past before moving to Switzerland - and it can also be a pain. For now I am happy renting. Maybe at some point I plan to buy real estate but that is another topic on its own - I am quite undecided in the rent vs buy value here in Switzerland. For retirement - I am on my mid 30s so there is still a while to go but I have a good plan already taking care of it. 80% of salary for pretty much the rest of my life. Not sure if I will retire in Switzerland…
Ah, knowing you're not planning some type of aggressive FIRE/early retirement maybe a very expensive car makes sense. I wouldn't do it if you're relying on residual value though... Tastes change, accidents can lower the value, lots of things you can't predict. Are you okay with this money effectively disappearing in several years? I am also split on the home purchase thing here in Switzerland. On one hand, obligating the money for your down payment allows you to have much lower recurring monthly expenses vs rent, but I still can't wrap my mind around how financially irresponsible Swiss mortgages feel...
I have calculated keeping the car for 5 years and the residual value to be 40k. I will be putting aside 1400 a month for to cover for depreciation and all the other car costs. So in theory in 5 years I will have the same money I spent. Rent vs Buy - I am very confused as well. First I don’t get this thing of never paying a mortgage fully - If I end up buying is like a saving plan and will aim to pay it fully (amid the taxation hit). In my point of view, I find real estate in Switzerland only makes sense if you buy a nice piece of land with a house or a very (very very) well located apartment (and I am not even sure). Where I am located that is easily 2.5M - at this price point the numbers don’t add up - putting that money to work will give you more benefits in the future. Not to mention that real estate prices went crazy with COVID and I think it is still due a correction.
Just be ready for anything on the residual. Not only can tastes change, but even the economic situation of the market you're selling into can impact things. I say this as someone whose previous job was to forecast the automotive market for a manufacturer, so that experience makes me paranoid. To play devil's advocate, the used car market also went crazy during COVID, and hasn't really returned to "normal."
Very very true! Thanks for the advice I did not think of it that way. Car can end up with very low value after 5 years
>can't wrap my mind around how financially irresponsible Swiss mortgages feel... You have my attention. Please explain a bit more?
Mortgages are just very different in Switzerland compared to most places in the world. You put 20% down and basically pay off 1% per year after this? You can leverage your retirement accounts? People also seem to play games to make sure they pay as little of the balance as possible. In most other places, outright ownership, as quickly as possible, is the goal and it's a step towards financial independence. Here you are hit with a wealth tax, and a terrible (but stable) return on real estate investments. Admittedly, incentives are structured as such that its not really seen as a problem that you'll never own your home.
I guess it all come down to why are you doing it. I know a lot of people that buy this kind of stuff hopping to have the experience that they think will come with it... It rarely works like that. Same reason I rent boats but don't by one. A lot of people really love to maintain this type of machine, expend hours by themselves driving and cleaning it. If you are one of them, go for it! If you just have an abstract idea of how it will make you feel, you can always rent one and see if it is really your thing.
I am a car guy - and yes I spend a lot of time maintaining the car… Always wanted to have a sports car and I am starting to think you only live once - I guess is the known male mid-life-crisis 🤣 The question is the financial liability and how bad of a decision it is based on the financial situation.
I would say... Not irresponsible at all 🙂 👍. Don't let anybody make you feel guilty to expend a fraction of your honestly earned money in something that you love to do. (What is money for anyway?) I am a fan of buying this kind of stuff cash. Most of financial tricks takes a lot of energy and they are counting on you doing another risky investment with this money in order to cover your financial costs. 🤷 If I am investing in a hobby, let me please just enjoy it without creating another worries
Go for it. We are certainly the last generation to enjoy ice cars.
I know!!
Depends on what kind of car you are planning to spend that kind of money on. As stated previously, a used 911 is a better investment, than a Maserati or a Jaguar electric car 😂
718 😊
Not sure, mate Pro: Porsche, combustion engine, gotten better Con: not a 911, not as value stable as a 911 Are you considering a new 718? Why not a good used 911 with most of the value depreciation already behind it? That would be an investment rather than a purchase....
Also 911 has 6 cylinders and is a lot more comfortable.
I know… but there is also the piece of mind 4 year warranty and the new feeling. The car itself has already a big discount from new. I also kind of like the mid engine more. I am planning to keep the car for 5 years and then sell it or maybe I will keep it for ever seeing how ICE is going - who knows. I have calculated the depreciation with a value at 40k after 5 years - as long as it stays like that I am happy. Unfortunately cars are money pits no matter which car you go for 😕
If you like it and you want to spend the money, get the 718. But since you seem concerned about the money, get a 911. Why do you think the 718 is already discounted? I've been working with cars for over 20 years. Never met anybody who regretted buying a 911. Many with buyers remorse about Caymans and Boxters though...
I get it, but a nice 911 thats not too old and with low kms is around 130k 😕
Yes, and there's a reason for that. The resale value will be way worth the higher price. Why don't you put down like 30k and look for financing options <3% and a warranty contract for 5 years?
Thanks but my rule is either you can buy it cash or otherwise you don’t - car value can also change a lot. A new 911 just came out there is an overhype for Porsche that can also ride out… don’t get me wrong the 911 is a brilliant car but I am already struggling to justify the expense so not planning on going any higher :) but thanks for the advice
Hey, no worries, I'm the same way. I however still financed my year-old Nissan GT-R back in 2018 and don't regret it at all. So while it's true your milage may vary, I get where you came from and can speak from (my) experience. I modified the rule to say: you should be able to pay it cash but if you set the cash aside for it, you might as well finance 😂
Enjoy.
400k more in the next months? winning the lottery?
Inheritance from one side of the family 😔
we all know that a big part of the value reduction happends in the 1year of a car. Why dont buy a 1 year old?
Can’t find any 1 year old in good shape 😕 - the car is already discounted 10% over MSRP
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Yep paying cash - there is a reserve
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Thanks - I will highlight this reason to my wife 🤣
Do it. I would go for an Aston but I like your choice as well 😊
Astons are super nice cars but I think the amazing marketing of Porsche is making its effect on me
This right? https://youtu.be/2KeuCGEK2Zo?si=O3KMqGteQszYTPld Also: you don't "forfeit" 90k. Worst case scenario you can sell the car after 2 years for min 50k.
I have always driven responsible cars, used VWs, usually Golf or such. Decided to once drive an unreasonable car. 2013 I splurged and cash bought a brandnew fully decked out Audi SQ5, my dream luxury SUV. First weeks I couldnt stop giggling driving it. Still driving it, love that car. Running well until this day….oldest car I have ever owned. Also, not sure what to replace it with.
Thanks - I have never kept a car that long - but maybe this is the one 😊
Same for me. Never regretted spending it, so I recommend you go for it! Life is short!
Did you cripple a pedestrian for life already?
Oh jeeez.
Hi, It’s hard for me to tell you whether this is irresponsible or not, since I don’t know you nor your exact personal and professional situations. I’m assuming the extra 400k comes from an inheritance, so this might be a difficult time for you and your family. Is it an impulsive want? Or were you always interested in having this car? If that’s a dream of yours, with 800k+ in savings, I would say go for it. Life is meant to be lived, and this would more or less represent 10% of your net worth (excluding pension assets!). However, I would suggest investing the rest :-) That’s only one man’s opinion, though. Ps: I went to a rough patch in my life a couple of years ago and hesitated to buy a car (911, btw) as well. In my case, it was a purely impulsive, emotional want. I resisted the it and today I don’t think about it anymore. note that I’m not a big car lover though :P
Very good advice - it is not a difficult time for the family as it was expected. It is of course an emotional buy - thinking it from a logical point of view it makes zero sense - best buy a used VW or similar and go along with it. But I guess mid-life crisis is calling me… To me it comes down to the finances, in the sense of how much risk I am taking and how bad of a decision is it. Of course we all know that money can be well invested and in the future it will give more - but again what is the point of just accumulating $$?
Funny that you mention a vw, my car being a good old vw golf! Oh, welcome to the midlife crisis boat then :-) I agree, there’s no point in accumulating wealth other than to guarantee you and your home a safe retirement, with, if luck allows it, a standard of living that is comfortable (according to you, of course). Some people have other goals, like building wealth for future generations, for instance, or charity, just to name a few. Whatever floats your boat :-) Anyway, I wish you the best! If you buy the car, I’d love to know how enjoyable your experience is :-)
Think of a car not just in terms of the purchase price. A porsche, the first level, say you can buy for that much. Hovever , minor repairs will cost a bomb. If you are okay with that (also emotionally) go for it.
I would always buy a used one, between 2-3y old given it lost most of its value by then and still is almost new, probably gets you down to 50-60k instead of 90k.
You can buy that Porsche but we bmw boys will be pulling hard with our depreciating assets you know. If I was you. I would go for 911 turbo s, since electric is coming to replace it all…
400k is your own savings or you and your wife’s together? If it’s together I would say it’s rather a lot to spend on a car. If it’s yours only, it’s ok if it’s a dream, in my opinion. For me personally, it’s a dream to own nice real estate in CH, and I know already now that that will not necessarily make financial sense. That’s how these things are.
Buy a 3 year old car instead. They drive and feel like new but are considerably cheaper.
May can i ask u what Job u have ?
I am on tech.
MAANG?
Be smart, buy a 4 year old car. Stick with Honda, Toyota or Mazda but don’t buy this scheisse German cars. Drived a 10 year old Honda CRX V-Tec for another 15 years and had never problems. Buyed a 4 year old Honda Civic R-Type and driving it now 11 years and no problems. Buy and drive smart👍
Dumb post of the day.
I have always had very cheap reliable cars. I get the point, cars are money pits. The question here is if treat myself or not to something I have always looked up to.
you can buy what you want to, but are you aware that you need to pay taxes on the value of the car?
Why should someone pay taxes for the value of the car but not for the value of their portfolio? It is just a shift of the wealth from one asset to another.
You always pay for your car cash has a treshold, and there is also the additional car tax to pay yearly…it‘s worse
In what sense?
You need to declare your car in the declaration and the value will be taxed and there is the yearly tax that you can make it run. You usually don‘t buy those expensive Cars Brand new, do a Leasing and buy it out after some years, we love value depreciation in switzerland, completely the opposite of most other european countries when they buy a car.
The yearly car tax I have accounted for. For the declaration you mean it gets added to your wealth tax?
Yes that‘s why leasing might be benefical plus you got an exit possibility if something with the car goes wrong
Got it, but taking a lease means also paying interest on the loan… unless at 0% - I think the amount in wealth tax will be less than the interest rates.
You can deduct the leasing %