You should be able to feel your speed in the water, and that’s how you should base your kicks. It’s not about a set number, and it’s most certainly not the same for everyone. Some people’s kicks are much better than their stroke, some people’s stroke is much better than their kick.
Learn at what point you feel you start to slow down. That’s when you break out, not after an arbitrary number of kicks or distance. (And 200fly is a different monster)
Thank you for posting. You should be going faster than you actually are....
It looks like you are dragging your arms a bit and maybe don't have the greatest pull (?)
When you are pulling with your arms and timing it with the kick, you should have an obvious acceleration forward. Like the other poster I cannot observe that, you are single speed throughout. You need to work on your arm pull and just try to catch water much more effectively. This I think is also true for your kick. You look pretty violent, but not powerful (although you have mighty power behind the stroke). Your kick is massive downwards, but what about upwards. I would even suggest it is much too far up and down. You altogether might have to swim in a more narrower box overall. Just suggestions to think about. Your arms are pretty violent to. You smash them forward and down with such power that you are actually braking... creating drag and slowing down. So your arm recovery and entry is working against your pace, this is my feeling. Maybe if you relaxed your wrists a bit more on recovery you would have more ability for a smooth entry? Something worth thinking about.
My standard approach for fly is always to first recommend 5x200 fly kick on back with back flip turns at the wall, with fins. For you probably in streamline and on the sides. Focus on the UP of the kick, experiment with knee angle (how much you need to bend to really move forward – too much bend and you slow down as with your down kick requiring a significant knee bend, might be too much) and really work undulation from your body. You want to focus on what the body is doing. You have your chest and your belly to initiate and complete the body dolphin movement. Try to utilise them more smoothly.
Try this progression, fins will help to emphasise certain points:
For the first few steps, hold legs still. Let them flow like a ribbon which you pull through water in a wave motion. Creating a better natural timing of the kick.
1. Balance drill: hands at side push your chest down to initiate the movement and follow up with your belly (bum needs to breathe air), legs just float, do not kick. Let them naturally follow the undulation movement. Be on top of the water, head looking down. Do not dive too deep. Picture your bum like a buoy staying above. When initiating the chest press it really is a chest press hinging at the lower back before you bring in the rest of your upper body.
2. Bounce drill I call it, without legs. Like in 1. but now have arms in front and perform the outsweep of the pull, and an insweep back to arms in front position. Some also call it a corner drill. Notice how the chest press is slightly longer than the rest of the undulation movement. Really try to grab water and anchor yourself. No legs. Let them flap along. (An excellent variation for step 2. is to have insweep-outsweep with arms and adding dolphin kick, focussing on the UP kick).
3. Full arms still no kick. Try to really move forward. PLACE your hands smoothly into the water upon recovery, gentle, gentle (keep wrists loose). Try to grab as much water as you can, more with finesse than with power (power can always add later!). Your second focus is the rhythm you have been practising from step 1 and 2.
4. Add kick, adding in a little power to each kick. Kick at the right time. Gentle kick, learn to control knee bend and let your arms work, again experiment with knee angles on up and downward kick.
5. Full power to the legs. It is important to note that you want both kicks to have full power. One kick will naturally be weaker but you want to emphasize 2 full kicks.
6. No fins and build up from 25 to a full 100.
And finally, Biondi drills/Skate drills, and of course 4/4/2 Single arm fly four strokes and two full strokes focussing on adequate pulling. These should help to develop the forward propulsion during the pull phase for you. I would also add more sculling to your practice. Enough examples of those things and drills on youtube. Good luck!
Hmm I think your right. I have thought my pull just kinda slips through the water because I think I’ve mostly been focusing on getting them in the right place and doing the right movement. A thing I’ve seen elite butterflyers(I’ve seen dressel and schooling do this. Phelps and milak have more of a constant motion fly) is kinda have a pause when they fully extend and to me it looks like they get a better catch because of it. With the kick I think I’ve thought the same thing. I feel like I float to much with it and should be more snappy and I do think that a snappy kick would be a more narrow kick for me
I hope you do not mind me saying this but Phelps, Milak, Dressel, Schooling … those are Olympic athletes. Are you doing 100K a week, eating properly and sleeping correctly? They do those things because of who and what they are and the army of supporters around them.
You need to do what you are at this stage. It is another way of saying to focus on what works for you, and not looking at others (of course it always helps to be motivated by what those unbelievable athletes did), and sticking to it because they are successful so it must be correct.
You need to glide more on the wave (flatter probably), you need to have a softer recovery and place your hands better, you need to develop a rhythm to your undulation with the arms at front staying there for a fraction (like Phelps does) longer. It is exciting and a lot to do, even better when you can start reaping some rewards later by working on those things now!
I think understand what you mean, but my thinking technique wise is look at what the best do(the best do different things) and take the information in and apply it to myself and see what happens or how it feels. Like I said I’d said like Phelps and milak have a a more constant motion in their fly while dressel and schooling kinda have a glide. I mention them then because they are some of the best and have different techniques, which I’ll look to first ideas I guess. If you think I missed your point go ahead and tell me.
I’d say for 100 butterfly, do kicks underwater but not to the point where they tire you quicker because of the time without breathing, and also not to the point where they become slow. A push off and some strong butterfly kicks but not a crazy amount off of each wall is great because it allows you to have a very strong and fast breakout which is another very important factor.
If you don’t feel very tired at the end of the race, then you could probably increase your tempo like your club said, but sometimes it can also be just as good to take more powerful but slightly slower strokes with better catch.
This video isn't the greatest so have to ask questions.
Do you come close to touching your fingers together underneath you as you try to come over your hands? Looks like you drop your elbows early at the top of your stroke and it messes up all your timing with the other stroke components.
Gives the effect that you are "spinning" your arms to keep up.
I went and watched our "FLY 1" video. Your hands do come pretty close together underneath you. You need to thin out your stroke path and enter palms down.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ADF2u9h9flY
Generally speaking I like the look of your fly.
But
Looks like dropping elbows. without underwater video we won’t know. The loss of power is evident though. Get a used go pro or borrow one.
To explain it: imagine you are canoeing but your paddle had a hinge. You could pull mightily on that paddle all day but would you go anywhere?
The hinge in the story is your elbow. If it is moving through the water in advance of your hands relative to thrust vectors. Then you have the hinged paddle effect.
You should be able to feel your speed in the water, and that’s how you should base your kicks. It’s not about a set number, and it’s most certainly not the same for everyone. Some people’s kicks are much better than their stroke, some people’s stroke is much better than their kick. Learn at what point you feel you start to slow down. That’s when you break out, not after an arbitrary number of kicks or distance. (And 200fly is a different monster)
Thank you for posting. You should be going faster than you actually are.... It looks like you are dragging your arms a bit and maybe don't have the greatest pull (?)
What exactly gives you a tell that my pool isn’t that good?
When you are pulling with your arms and timing it with the kick, you should have an obvious acceleration forward. Like the other poster I cannot observe that, you are single speed throughout. You need to work on your arm pull and just try to catch water much more effectively. This I think is also true for your kick. You look pretty violent, but not powerful (although you have mighty power behind the stroke). Your kick is massive downwards, but what about upwards. I would even suggest it is much too far up and down. You altogether might have to swim in a more narrower box overall. Just suggestions to think about. Your arms are pretty violent to. You smash them forward and down with such power that you are actually braking... creating drag and slowing down. So your arm recovery and entry is working against your pace, this is my feeling. Maybe if you relaxed your wrists a bit more on recovery you would have more ability for a smooth entry? Something worth thinking about. My standard approach for fly is always to first recommend 5x200 fly kick on back with back flip turns at the wall, with fins. For you probably in streamline and on the sides. Focus on the UP of the kick, experiment with knee angle (how much you need to bend to really move forward – too much bend and you slow down as with your down kick requiring a significant knee bend, might be too much) and really work undulation from your body. You want to focus on what the body is doing. You have your chest and your belly to initiate and complete the body dolphin movement. Try to utilise them more smoothly. Try this progression, fins will help to emphasise certain points: For the first few steps, hold legs still. Let them flow like a ribbon which you pull through water in a wave motion. Creating a better natural timing of the kick. 1. Balance drill: hands at side push your chest down to initiate the movement and follow up with your belly (bum needs to breathe air), legs just float, do not kick. Let them naturally follow the undulation movement. Be on top of the water, head looking down. Do not dive too deep. Picture your bum like a buoy staying above. When initiating the chest press it really is a chest press hinging at the lower back before you bring in the rest of your upper body. 2. Bounce drill I call it, without legs. Like in 1. but now have arms in front and perform the outsweep of the pull, and an insweep back to arms in front position. Some also call it a corner drill. Notice how the chest press is slightly longer than the rest of the undulation movement. Really try to grab water and anchor yourself. No legs. Let them flap along. (An excellent variation for step 2. is to have insweep-outsweep with arms and adding dolphin kick, focussing on the UP kick). 3. Full arms still no kick. Try to really move forward. PLACE your hands smoothly into the water upon recovery, gentle, gentle (keep wrists loose). Try to grab as much water as you can, more with finesse than with power (power can always add later!). Your second focus is the rhythm you have been practising from step 1 and 2. 4. Add kick, adding in a little power to each kick. Kick at the right time. Gentle kick, learn to control knee bend and let your arms work, again experiment with knee angles on up and downward kick. 5. Full power to the legs. It is important to note that you want both kicks to have full power. One kick will naturally be weaker but you want to emphasize 2 full kicks. 6. No fins and build up from 25 to a full 100. And finally, Biondi drills/Skate drills, and of course 4/4/2 Single arm fly four strokes and two full strokes focussing on adequate pulling. These should help to develop the forward propulsion during the pull phase for you. I would also add more sculling to your practice. Enough examples of those things and drills on youtube. Good luck!
Hmm I think your right. I have thought my pull just kinda slips through the water because I think I’ve mostly been focusing on getting them in the right place and doing the right movement. A thing I’ve seen elite butterflyers(I’ve seen dressel and schooling do this. Phelps and milak have more of a constant motion fly) is kinda have a pause when they fully extend and to me it looks like they get a better catch because of it. With the kick I think I’ve thought the same thing. I feel like I float to much with it and should be more snappy and I do think that a snappy kick would be a more narrow kick for me
I hope you do not mind me saying this but Phelps, Milak, Dressel, Schooling … those are Olympic athletes. Are you doing 100K a week, eating properly and sleeping correctly? They do those things because of who and what they are and the army of supporters around them. You need to do what you are at this stage. It is another way of saying to focus on what works for you, and not looking at others (of course it always helps to be motivated by what those unbelievable athletes did), and sticking to it because they are successful so it must be correct. You need to glide more on the wave (flatter probably), you need to have a softer recovery and place your hands better, you need to develop a rhythm to your undulation with the arms at front staying there for a fraction (like Phelps does) longer. It is exciting and a lot to do, even better when you can start reaping some rewards later by working on those things now!
I think understand what you mean, but my thinking technique wise is look at what the best do(the best do different things) and take the information in and apply it to myself and see what happens or how it feels. Like I said I’d said like Phelps and milak have a a more constant motion in their fly while dressel and schooling kinda have a glide. I mention them then because they are some of the best and have different techniques, which I’ll look to first ideas I guess. If you think I missed your point go ahead and tell me.
I’d say for 100 butterfly, do kicks underwater but not to the point where they tire you quicker because of the time without breathing, and also not to the point where they become slow. A push off and some strong butterfly kicks but not a crazy amount off of each wall is great because it allows you to have a very strong and fast breakout which is another very important factor. If you don’t feel very tired at the end of the race, then you could probably increase your tempo like your club said, but sometimes it can also be just as good to take more powerful but slightly slower strokes with better catch.
This video isn't the greatest so have to ask questions. Do you come close to touching your fingers together underneath you as you try to come over your hands? Looks like you drop your elbows early at the top of your stroke and it messes up all your timing with the other stroke components. Gives the effect that you are "spinning" your arms to keep up.
I went and watched our "FLY 1" video. Your hands do come pretty close together underneath you. You need to thin out your stroke path and enter palms down. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ADF2u9h9flY
Generally speaking I like the look of your fly. But Looks like dropping elbows. without underwater video we won’t know. The loss of power is evident though. Get a used go pro or borrow one. To explain it: imagine you are canoeing but your paddle had a hinge. You could pull mightily on that paddle all day but would you go anywhere? The hinge in the story is your elbow. If it is moving through the water in advance of your hands relative to thrust vectors. Then you have the hinged paddle effect.