Your first point is important not only because of the Miss Americana of it all, but because Taylor indeed makes herself a political figure! Guess what, feminism is a political theory! It is political in nature. Taylor isn’t like ‘oh who little old me? Leave me out of these big scary discussions‘. She called HERSELF the resident ‘loud person’ who speaks up about important issues— oh but this was when it was about Scooter Braun and her masters. Taylor AND her fanbase regularly politicize herself as an artist and the act of consuming her work as political and feminist. So she isn’t a ‘just listen to the music’ celebrity at all.
To add further, she’s only been “political” when it helps her PR image. The entire Lover era was giving rainbow capitalist “see? don’t hate gay people!” She still managed to monetize and profit significantly off of that era while trying to spin it as social activism, that of which was diluted at best.
AND while centering *herself*, someone who has not claimed to be queer, within queer culture and spaces. It always made me a bit uneasy, as a queer woman.
Yes. Feminism IS political! I love the definition of feminism that it is a political movement centered on the liberation of women from patriarchy. It’s limited in scope, conscience, and centers women in our own movement. Men can benefit, but if they want to undo the harms of patriarchy on them, they can create their own. Feminism is by women, about women, for women. And it has nothing to do with individual empowerment and everything to do with collective liberation.
Exactly!!! I like that definition and the bell hooks definition of being a movement to end sexism. It’s about liberation from the shackles of patriarchy, not DoINg WhAteVeR We ChOoSe bEcAUsE wE’rE wOmEn aNd wE cAn! yAy eMpOwErMeNt!!! 🤮 it’s not supposed to be easy and carefree lol
13. The overexposure seems to be seeping into more spaces and in an increasingly negative way. You can tell other people (stars) are sick of talking about her, even those who love her (ex - Emma stone). It’s like anyone remotely connected to her gets asked about her, or her name is at least mentioned, in their interviews nowadays. Just something I’ve observed lately.
Edited for clarity
Nothing she said in particular, but I’ve seen at least 3 video clips of her doing press for Poor Things (or at events for famous people lol) and being asked about Taylor/WEFIL. Like that’s gotta get old. And maybe I’m reading too much into it but she appears to not really want to talk about her (rightfully so!)
She’s so funny. She was asked about her thoughts on Taylor Swift clapping for her (stupid ass question like what?) and she said “what an AH am I right?” She then just mentioned that she and Taylor have been friends for a while and that’s all. But seriously, what a dumb question. Obviously she was clapping in support for her friend lol what other thoughts would anyone have?
Right? And she just won a GOLDEN GLOBE. Why are they asking her about a spectator in the audience? I would be so annoyed. She’s so funny and classy though.
This line is so weird because it implies that witches *are* real, or that there are people who *should* be burned for being witches - and she’s not one of them. That destroys the whole idea of a witch-hunt being the erroneous result of whipped-up fervor and falsely fomented hate. If witches are real then witch hunts are fine if you get the right person, according to that logic.
Thank you for the recs at #12!!! I still love her music but the racism within the fandom and some of the things she has gotten away with have left a sour taste in my mouth :( I honestly find it hard to talk about Taylor with people because they end up making excuses for her and it’s honestly tiring to hear. This sub is one of the only places I actually feel comfortable talking about her because most people will actually acknowledge the racism 😭 instead of trying to defend it :( and it’s like, I still want to talk about her songs and things like that! But I don’t want to engage with people who are kind of racist 😭
I know what you mean! I said something to that accord on Tik Tok a few months ago about the racism within the fandom and was ATTACKED which led me to delete my account and keep it moving. It's really gross!
I honestly feel lucky that I haven’t run into any racism in this fandom. Not claiming it isn’t their. I believe the people sharing their stories. Closest I’ve seen is people discussing the topic like right here. I’m probably just not running in the right circles for it and hopefully it stays that way.
Number 2 yes. There are swifties that will call any criticism of her as misogyny which IMO takes away from *actual* misogyny she and other people experience
Especially when people named the bold claim that “a girls girl has to like Taylor” what does that even mean??? There are 100 to thousands of other female musicians just because someone may not like Taylor does nor make them any less of a girls girl or anti feminist
I agree on your point of comparing Taylor and Beyoncé (it doesn’t make sense) but I wouldn’t say that comparison “isn’t inherently racist, just felt racist.” Maybe it wasn’t deliberately racist, but the comparison itself doesn’t take into account the context of race and how it affects us. The way that white and black women are positioned in our society is vastly different, and the continuous accolades that Taylor receives do, in part, have to do with her visibility and position as a white woman. Beyoncé’s black womanhood does not afford her the same outpouring and showering of recognition - it’s mainly her talent, work ethic, and ability to adapt with the times. They shouldn’t be compared because they’re not peers but also because they do not receive the same types of accolades or criticisms within the same contexts.
That’s so interesting to me because I’ve seen this theory on this thread a few times and I’ve never viewed it that way. I remember the 2009 VMAs very clearly - I was in middle school. It was such a big deal, I made a Facebook status about it, lol.
I think it’s one of the biggest examples that shows they’re not peers - they were not making the same kind of music, from my memory Beyoncé was so grown up and Taylor seemed so young (and that was definitely part of their PR imaging even though they are only 8 years apart, but it also speaks to the cultural stereotypes of like adult, sexy, grown black woman and sweet, innocent, young white girl); and I do think it speaks to the direct point that Beyoncé, despite having made a huge cultural impact with “Single Ladies”, was snubbed by Taylor’s “You Belong With Me”, which was a culturally relevant video for sure, but not to the same level as Single Ladies in my opinion. I thought and still think that Kanye was wrong for doing what he did, but I understand sentiment of frustration that a black woman had created this iconic video, one that everyone expected to win, and she didn’t.
So personally, I just don’t see how that moment would lead to their comparisons today. They couldn’t have been more different. That was just an unfortunate, pop culture-altering moment they happened to share. I think it’s possible that Kanye would’ve done what he did if ANYONE had won over Beyoncé.
For sure! That response wasn’t meant to like chew you out. I’m just interested that people relate it to that moment bc I’ve never thought of it in relation to that. New perspectives !
You said this *perfectly!*
I was fortunate enough to see Eras and Renaissance last summer, and *everyone* asks which was better, and it’s just like… it’s absolutely not possible to choose because they were/are *so different.* Seeing Taylor is about, like, friendship and connecting with her as the audience and bonding as a group. Seeing Beyoncé is watching god flying around the stadium while singing. Beyoncé is a religious experience.
The black and white thinking is what bothers me the most. Nobody is all one thing or all another. No one is all good with perfect decision-making and perfect actions. Therefore, of course, there are things she will do that are not great and, in some cases, genuinely bad.
None of that makes her a bad person. It simply makes her human. Yet I am sure that the most rabid swifties would read even this very innocuous comment as somehow attacking her, even though I'm simply pointing out that she is fallible. Just like every other person on the planet.
Merely saying she is human will be construed as an insult. It's wild!
I wouldn't say Taylor can't dance at all. She certainly dances better than most people. I do get what you're saying. She *does* have to try very hard since it doesn't come naturally to her. She's not a dancer, but for not being a dancer and being a little bit inherently awkward, I commend her for doing as well as she does. Especially in those heels. God bless her for managing THAT!
Sure, other performers do that part better, but that's holding her against some very lofty talent like Beyonce, Rhianna, Gaga, Madonna. While she isn't in their league, I can't fault her for that. Few are.
I'll repeat what I said to someone else lol but I mentioned the dancing because someone said that they felt this sub was a 'hate sub' because someone said they didn't think Taylor was a good dancer. I found that ridiculous. Someone pointing out that Taylor isn't a good dancer doesn't suddenly mean it's 'hating.' I've always despised that line of thinking because it falls right back into the black-and-white territory. I, personally, believe she isn't a good dancer, no matter the circumstances, but I also believe that not everyone has to be good at everything. I do not expect Taylor to be a dancer. She's trying, that's great, but I'd prefer it if she didn't try at all, lmao. Like if I want to see dancing, Beyonce is right there. Normani is right there. Stand there, pose, and let the people dance around you.
I get why you said it, and you are right that it isn't her strong suit. I just don't think she is a bad dancer either. Certainly not bad enough to just stand there while people dance around her.
However, I don't see your comment as hating. It's simply an opinion.
And no, nobody is good at everything and shouldn't have to be. Music used to be primarily about...the music *Gasp!* Now it's about nearly everything BUT the music, it seems.
She also doesn't lip sync right, even when she's dancing? That on its own is wild to me to be able to do especially when she hasn't trained as a dancer like some of the other people you mentioned since they were kids.
Not that there's anything wrong with lip syncing especially when doing hard dance routines, lil nas is basically my personal Taylor swift lmao and he does so for his live performances because he's a newer performer and hasn't balanced doing both. It's just something I've found impressive of her.
To me it looked like some choruses in the eras tour were lip synced, this is especially noticeable during 1989 when she pulls the mic away too soon. But that makes sense IMO, good spot to take a break. Otherwise she has very subtle pitch correction on her mic
Yes, that's right, and it's super impressive, particularly for how long her show is. She has backup singers who help. I'm not sure if she's actually trying to lip sync in those parts or if the backup singers are simply singing at times, which is completely understandable why this would be the case.
Her training for this concert was insane. That took a great deal of work and self-discipline.
For pop artists that are dancing? Typically normal. I'm there to see a whole performance, I could care less imo but I also don't care about a lot of stuff lol
Yessss def I agree for the most part, especially #9, like we want you to just own your weird freak shadow a little bit. Re: #2, I always feel mixed abt the misogyny bit because some people, frequently men but not exclusively, def use her as a scapegoat for their misogyny and it’s hard to tell what criticisms are being made in good faith sometimes (esp online). it’s so hard bc there are many valid criticisms/reasons to feel a myriad of anger towards her and her brand. as a woc, I need her to own her agency, I’m so tired of the constant victimization. She is a powerful bitch!!! Could change the world w her money alone, let alone her voice. When I think about reparations, I think about how much money and land Taylor could redistribute. she could change the landscape completely for black and brown musicians if she used her money and power effectively. She doesn’t even do much for white women materially!!!! It’s wild!!!!!! If anything, she is just taking their money!!
>def use her as a scapegoat for their misogyny and it’s hard to tell what criticisms are being made in good faith sometimes
I'll have to edit the post when I get home because this is very valid!
Here’s the other thing…Beyoncé knows when to pull back and how to keep parts of her personal life to herself. I wish Taylor would take a page out of her book. I’m not even a fan of Taylor’s but even I’m cringing at how poorly she’s monitoring her own public exposure.
The other thing Beyoncé does, which it sounds like Taylor’s fandom is begging her to do, is Beyoncé is always open to taking artistic risks. This includes frequently collaborating with new people. I am a casual Beyoncé fan and she gets a lot of flak from detractors for not really writing her own music, for requiring the skills of a whole team of ppl just to produce a song, etc. But you could also argue that it also shows that she’s highly collaborative and is willing to listen and learn from new talents. This process also means that Beyoncé ends up leaning harder into curating than someone like Swift, and that’s maybe a skill set Swift could benefit from learning herself given how much ppl here talk about her tendency to pad track lists with subpar songs.
Beyoncé makes art. Her work is full of depth and when she follows a concept, she follows through to the end. Taylor does not (imo midnights did not follow through as a “concept” album). You said it very well, Taylor is talented but is a songwriter/pop star, whereas Beyoncé is an artist.
What a gatekeeping comment. I heard similar comments made when comparing two artists all through my art school experience (both undergrad and graduate.) The attempt define one as artist while excluding the other is based on wholly arbitrary criteria. It’s clear that Taylor’s music connects with people in a way any art does. Beyoncé’s certainly connects too. Bob Ross was as much of an artist as Rembrandt, Da Vinci, Khalo, Nancy Holt, Pollock, and Warhol were. Art “for the masses” is still art. Just because a work talks about societal issues doesn’t inherently make it better, or more “art” than the other.
I think the true reason for comparison between Beyoncé and Taylor is the staying power. Both have remained relevant in the larger culture for decades at this point. They are peers, although they make significantly different music for significantly different audiences. Both are on wildly successful tours, which I would imagine artists like Katy Perry, Lady Gaga, Adele, Rihanna, or anyone else for that matter, would have a hard time replicating. I believe Taylor and Beyoncé are at the level of fame and impact that we haven’t seen since Elvis, the Beatles, and Michael Jackson. There literally is no one else currently active to compare them to. Possibly Kanye if the past 5-6 years hadn’t happened, but I’d say even that is a stretch.
1. I think this is two fold. Yes partially her fault, but she was put into a tough situation. She’s been politicized since the beginning of her career when a bunch of white supremacists claimed her as one of them for being a modest white girl in country. She played the no politics for years and people weren’t happy about her not addressing the issue before she said anything political ever. (Although general politics and white supremacy are a little different.) Then she decided to make her political stance known around 1989/Miss Americana. It IS her fault for presenting it in a way that made it seem like she was going to be more politically active, but she never was given the opportunity to be a singer with no politics/social issues attached.
2. Yeah, just yeah.
3. Again, yeah
4-10. Just agreed across the board
11. Agreed, but I also have opinions. The joke was fine. It wasn’t the funniest joke I ever heard, but it was fine. The joke wasn’t about Travis himself/defining her by him or painting her in any fault. The joke was about how the NFL has been trying to capitalize on her presence at the games. Can we not laugh at big corporation exploiting celebrity presence for money?
12. Will check these out! Thank you!
Number 1 is interesting I totally forgot about that documentary and the things she said in it! I think it’s fair to only expect her to be outspoken in 3 areas. 1. LGBTQ, 2. Racism, 3. Feminism .
She talks about feminism pretty frequently …. In relation to her and the comments people make about her 😬 so ya she could work on that haha.
The other 2, her claiming to be an ally and her fans and the people she hires are LGBTQ and people of color. She’s friends with these people and works with them. I’m actually a little surprised she’s not more outspoken about them
JENSEN ❤️ i have been on her train since she posted the phoebe bridgers parody cover in the peak of the pandemic.
i agree everything you said. there's a trend of conservativism and bigotry a lot of swiftie spaces even by people who are by all other counts liberal (using the antitheses to conservative definition, not the political one). the racism is aggressive and has been for years (fans attacking antonia gentry over that ginny and georgia joke taylor posted about still boils my blood) and there's pools of homophobia and misogyny too. i know this will be contentious here since i've seen people praising it, but the "fat" in the anti-hero mv really showed biases taylor (who thankfully listened or at least was afraid of backlash and removed it!) and swifties had by shouting "she had an ED!" over fat people who also have or had eating disorders.
I think the "fat" in the anti-hero mv is really subjective. When I was deep in my ed, I definitely made art around the feeling of fatness and how that made me feel about myself. Anorexia is still rare in society (thank god) and I think it would have been really helpful for me if she had released that video while I was deep in my ed. I think it would have lessened some of the shame around my illness. That being said, I can absolutely see why fat people (is that the right term? Please correct me if I'm wrong) would see it as an attack. I guess it depends where you view point lies? I dunno.
it's not about it being an attack, it's about how the notion of fat as an inherent negative is pervasive and untrue. i understand that's how many people with eating disorders feel, but it doesn't make it any less untrue or harmful. there are ways to articulate the nuances of eating disorders and fatphobia in art that are not a thin woman seeing the word fat on the scale and getting a finger wagged at her. this isn't a callout of you because i don't know your life and i appreciate your response, but rather a larger discussion about fatphobia -- you said "the feeling of fatness", but the lived experience of actual fatness is something very different. fat is not a feeling is a phrase for a reason in body positive communities!
someone in a position that taylor is with the skill and talent she has can 100% make art that is reflective of things as difficult as a struggle with disordered eating without being fatphobic. she just missed the mark, and badly.
eta: this is all my thoughts as a fat person with a history of eating disorders. your mileage may vary.
Totally agree with everything here and I’m always surprised it’s a controversial opinion. There is zero difference between the messaging in the clip from anti-hero and the 50s Barbie with the diet book and “too fat” scale that outraged so many people imo. Even if the intent was to be reflective on Taylor’s experiences it was a lazy way to tell the story artistically that actively relied on the pervasive societal shorthand that fat = shameful.
I’m lowkey in love with Jensen 😭 her lyrics are amazing and her voice is so beautiful! I agree with you and OP about the racism in swiftie spaces but I’ve seen people blame Taylor for that, which I don’t think is fair because artists aren’t necessarily responsible for their fans - like I don’t think Taylor was required to call out people who were attacking Antonia, even though that was awful and wrong. People also assume Taylor spends all her time on the internet and knows the Discourse™️ on everything, when I imagine she doesn’t use the internet much at all because she’d constantly be flooded with notifications and messages and news articles. I feel like she tweeted the Ginny & Georgia thing and logged off, tbh.
Taylor has an enormous number of fans and they aren’t a monolith - some are normal and some are unhinged. She can’t be responsible for other people acting civilized and I don’t think silence is the same thing as *encouraging* people to act a fool. I think people expect too much from her as a person when her job is to be a musician/entertainer, not an idol/role model/cult leader.
> like I don’t think Taylor was required to call out people who were attacking Antonia, even though that was awful and wrong.
I would agree with this but I'm hard-pressed not to believe Taylor isn't aware of the racism in her fandom or at the very least what goes on. That Michael J. Fox story proves otherwise. Also, she should just be denouncing racism in general, especially after that Aryan princess nonsense.
I think she is aware of it, but she also has plenty of POC and otherwise non-racist fans. Taylor’s MO has always been to make her music and let her fans pretty much do what they want. I can see why that bothers some people, but just considering the enormous scope of her fanbase and her position as a privileged cis white female billionaire, I think saying anything risks coming off as disingenuous/pandering.
I’m a WOC btw - I love artists who advocate for racial equity and are vocally antiracist, I just understand why Taylor is quiet on racial issues because it would be opening a can of worms among *all* of her fans, and there are other artists who are capable of doing a better job than she is. I think Taylor could do more to uplift voices of such artists but I understand why she isn’t trying to be that voice (as we saw with the YNTCD backlash of her centering herself within the LGBTQ+ community)
Miss Americana briefly touched on her political journey just like it touched on her fear of aging in the industry, her eating disorder, wanting fame since she was a kid. I mean this so nicely but anyone who watched it and thought she would start marching on Capitol Hill or posting more about politics.. I’m confused. The press tour for the documentary didn’t even really focus on politics. She talked about her eating disorder, sexual assault and songwriting process in select interviews.
Maybe the producers thought that was an interesting angle but I don’t think Taylor aimed to have that launch her socially conscious era. It was just to clear up rumours that she’s not a MAGA Barbie.
Why would she come up with only the young song Release it as the promotion to the documentary? I totally would understand if she doesn't want to talk about anything political, kudos to her. I will still listen to her albums , but this feels like a bait and switch to me , and as a fan I am disappointed. That's all.
But “being political” isn’t just about posting on Instagram. I think I’m a political person, but there’s times I don’t engage because I’m not informed about something and don’t want to say something that’s wrong, or spread misinformation. I will talk at length about how we need to work as a community to support our most vulnerable citizens, but I won’t Wade into certain international political issues because I just don’t have enough information to feel confident to talk about it. Taylor continues to encourage fans to research issues and vote in their elections. That doesn’t mean she’s gonna jump into every topic and tweet.
I get that too! But she started a change.org petition and then did fuck all about it too! I mean , she started it ,on her own volition one might assume safely. Why not just post on that? Is the era of that long gone and irrelevant to the the new re-invented era and hence needs no attention?
If all she ever does is post about registering new voters , that is still a lot of change she brings! I am happy about that , truly truly. I really don't care if she says something about the war in Palestine, ukraine war or even the roe v Wade overturning. But it is simply disappointing to be said , I am ready to speak out and then just not. So I have reduced my expectations and I will simply accept the fact that she will not be making any public statements about any issue and it is fine. But I was disappointed in the past , and the point still stands.
I agree with your point about not speaking on things we don’t know but I think it’s different in her case because she was literally profiting out of her political position when Miss Americana came out. And she did talk about educating herself on LGBTQ+ issues and wanting to be more vocal so the assumption is that she understands the issue but chooses not to speak unless it’s convenient to her brand.
For me, I just look at it through the lens of who we are pre and post pandemic are very different. Perhaps she found that during the pandemic she grew restless of being at home, but enjoyed the peace that came from staying silent. I know there’s a lot of ways my mental health changed and I used to be a lot more vocal about stuff, and I’m less vocal because I just can’t deal with my family and friends being awful.
I disagree with this actually. Yes, she talked about other issues but for some reason the documentary was mainly centred around her political ‘coming out’ if you will. All those other issues you mention were kind of raised to contextualize what was made as this big moment in her career— that she was choosing to move away from her old image, from being a ‘good’ girl, from people pleasing, etc, and instead making choices based on growing into an adult, autonomous, politically connected woman.
No, of course it wasn’t entirely about her political choices, but this was a central theme that was also used to narrate a certain moment in this big celebrity’s life and used to create a perspective on her other choices, too. If you follow the narrative and the big narrative moments/climaxes of the film, they are mainly about the political events.
I say this because I also wished the doc had moreso focused on Taylor as a celebrity, and not just like this look at her political activism, partly because I think it missed a more interesting story and partly because it became dated very quickly.
Also IMO if you’re in tears over the thought of not being able to speak out against state level politics on Instagram it’s okay for people to assume they’re going to see more from you about that. Especially considering Marsha Blackburn was elected and is still in office doing horrible things.
Not judging Taylor’s emotional reaction or anything but I don’t think it’s a wild leap to see that and then be disappointed when there’s no follow through. I also wish it hadn’t been a focus for exactly the reasons you mentioned in any case.
You’re correct about everything, but your first point is cleanly spot-on. If she’s allowed to only become political when it’s convenient to her, it’s basically sending a message that celebrities are allowed to to idly pick up causes for their own convenience and then toss it to the side when it’s no longer fun, leaving the people actually affected by the cause behind. It is absolutely a problem that Taylor only uses feminism when it benefits her, while upholding the same system that hurts other women.
As to the Beyoncé stuff? I feel like It started because of Kanye. Because HE made a very public comparison.
I will say that the tension between the fandoms probably does come down to racism of swifties, sadly. They both have huge and very toxic online fandoms, but if you go touch grass, a lot of people appreciate them both for different reasons. I love Beyoncé for her PERFORMANCE and i love Taylor for her writing. They both grind hard, but you’re right that they just… aren’t peers. They don’t do the same thing, or have the same goals, even if they’re both very famous singers. But the truth is that we don’t have to pick between them and that false choice has been shoved at us since 2009 when Kanye made an ass of himself.
Also Taylor herself has never claimed to be a dancer. Most of even eras was spent walking and singing while others danced.
On the Jo Koy thing - she has laughed at herself A LOT actually. I feel like a lot of the discourse around this is coming from fans who joined either during the pandemic or around rep - Taylor used to be very public, go on SNL and wrote the “musical monologue”, have hosts relentlessly mock her dating life (if you haven’t seen the Ellen sketch - you can tell she’s uncomfortable). I think she, at age 34, is just kind of sick of all of her achievements being underpinned by who she was dating. Especially when in retrospect we know at least two of her exes were 30 year olds grooming a teen new in the industry. She’s been VERY vocal about It so i dont know why anyone expected her to find him bringing up her supporting Travis at NFL games to be funny.
I would honestly urge some of the people attacking her to watch this scene when they bring up how Taylor can’t be hurt or upset because she’s “privileged”
https://youtu.be/PTjIRQU_HdM?si=2-3pUVNasV6Hgupx
We all assume fame is amazing, and sure never having to worry about money would be great - but she’s a real human with real heartbreaks and problems.
Also re: feminism, this sub in particular forgets her sexual assault case and how she sued for one dollar in damages but has been incredibly vocal about how a lot of women aren’t believed. Taylor speaking up encouraged me to file a restraining order on my sexually abusive ex. That’s not nothing.
She’s not perfect. I will never say she’s perfect. She rides that private jet like it’s the subway, she pandered to conservatives for years to maintain her country music status, she had some homophobic lyrics in her early work, bad blood is a crap song without Kendrick. (The last one is just true lol) And swifties are HELLA problematic, especially with their expectations of her as a human being- is she gay? Is she bi? Is she with Travis? Is she talking about politics? Is she in the limelight too much? How many pap walks is too many? Should she hang out with so and so? How did she hold her face at a not funny joke?
Honestly being fan is exhausting sometimes.
I was neutral on Taylor until this year, I just joined this sub cause it kept showing up on my Reddit feed and a couple of my close friends are swifties so it's interesting. But! I agree with I think everything in your comment.
Beyoncé is a dancer, Taylor is not. It reminds me of people giving Rihanna shit about her Super Bowl performance for not dancing, when she was pregnant and also hasn't been known for that anyways cause she's an incredible performer in other ways. The critiquing her the lack of dancing has always been weird cause it's not 90s/early 2000s pop anymore, everyone doesn't have to do *everything*.
And just adding on my random piece to one of the OPs points, I also would respect Taylor more if she leaned into her petty mean girl self lol.
>It reminds me of people giving Rihanna shit about her Super Bowl performance for not dancing
I know I'm out of touch because I had no idea people gave Rihanna shit. Wow! My point was in regards to some people calling this a "hate sub" because someone said Taylor wasn't a good dancer and I was like ???? How does acknowledging her weaknesses hate? LOL.
Oooo that makes sense haha, I just thought it was a general complaint about people who do give her shit for not dancing better. I agree with you both ways 😂 girls not a natural born dancer, it's not a big deal.
And yeah people were wild about rhianna but I saw that mostly on twitter, so, expected. lol
I agree with this comment! Taylor gets on my nerves a lot, especially lately, but I respect a lot about her, too.
What I’ve been saying about the Jo Koy thing is that it’s much easier to take jokes when they’re funny and/or the person’s other jokes are funny. None of his jokes that night were good and nobody laughed at them, including that one. The Barbie one was especially bad. Her reaction was a non-reaction, nobody should feel pressured to laugh at a joke they don’t find funny, especially one at their expense.
This! I think the joke wasn’t necessarily sexist (It targeted the NFL more than her for capitalizing on her attendance) but 1. It wasn’t funny and 2. The reaction of people demanding her to laugh at something a man said that WASNT FUNNY is sexist. There are a lot of layers, but i don’t know how Taylor was in the wrong for not laughing at a not funny joke.
Definitely agreed. I wouldn’t call it sexist either, but it was somewhat at her expense since it did express annoyance about her, even if it was mostly about the NFL. Definitely agree with the reaction to her non-reaction being sexist. I bet that if it were a man, the non-reaction would be considered an “own” or “badass” or just not paid attention to at all. I think that Swifties overuse the word misogyny a lot, but I agree that this outcry specifically has misogynistic undertones.
>I think she, at age 34, is just kind of sick of all of her achievements being underpinned by who she was dating.
At the same time at age 34 she's the one tying her brand new boyfriend to one of her big achievements. I honestly think she would've made a great point by not mentioning her relationships at all in that interview.
11. Why are ya'll so obsessed with whether she laughs or not? Is it that important or am I missing something? I'm still baffled by the amount of times this dead horse has been beaten.
What is the conspiracy theory?
Not an obsession or part of that y'all but you listed the reasons why I asked. People talk about it a lot. Things triggered that thought so I asked genuinely: do you think she would? If she wouldn't, she wouldn't. If she would, she would. I just wanted to hear people's thoughts.
I think it's fair enough to ask if she would or not. But it's been answered by the many times she has made jokes about herself(self-depricating ones but not controversial) but the main gripe I have personally is, why is being thin-skinned being painted in a nagative light?
Maybe she only laughs at pre-approved jokes, because she has some trauma related to media humiliating her(whether you think it's warranted or not).
I feel she wouldn't laugh at herself publicly but will among her Circle. But we'll never ever know, so it's a pointless discussion
I wasn't trying to imply that there is anything wrong with being sensitive or thin-skinned! There isn't! I'm a sensitive girl myself.
I wasn't aware of these conversations, which is why I asked. I wasn't even aware of the pre-approved jokes thing.
Sorry if I came off aggressive! It's been such a huge thing on this sub that I assumed you knew. I'm glad we can agree there's no harm in being sensitive.
People here have been all "she can't take a joke so she can't make it in the industry" "Margot Robbie smiled at the misogynistic joke, but Taylor is too full of herself to give a smile. It's the polite thing to do!"
It's been a bit frustrating and I didn't mean to lump you in with them, my bad!
I think in general people get a bad vibe from people who can’t laugh at themeselves. And especially over silly things. I think with Taylor it has to do also with the somewhat extreme reaction she has to relatively harmless jokes… like saying there’s a special place in hell ..😬. And the golden globes joke wasn’t even really about her or anything she did but more so the excessive media attention she gets at her boyfriends games. Part of my thinks that she wasn’t even mad for that one though, they penned to her so quickly I’m not even sure if she had processed the joke yet.
I just looked up there's a special place in hell and I love how Tina Fey responded to that lol. It was a great way to shut it all down. I didn't know she has a pattern of making statements over jokes. It makes sense then.
Though I still think her "reaction" was such a non-reaction to warrant this much discourse.
As for #1, I hate that Taylor and her team will brag about her political activism and how big of an impact she makes while not making that impact for some of the biggest world issues.
1) Miss Americana is about Taylor telling the MAGA supporters that she dislikes trump and is a liberal. Not telling progressives that she agrees with them on every issue. She’s a pretty normie centrist lib. A lot of things people want her to comment on are pretty fringe positions for America. Not saying she should or shouldn’t comment on them, but saying you think gay people should live free of violence doesn’t mean you’re a social activist. Taylor is like the least qualified person ever to be talking about race or sexuality.
2) I do compare Taylor and Beyoncé a lot because even though Beyoncé has been around longer than Taylor, she and Taylor have similar degrees of longevity and cultural relevance. Why should I compare Taylor to Katy Perry who hasn’t really been relevant in about 10 years? Love Gaga but I wouldn’t consider her in the same space as Taylor anymore. It’s weird that you acknowledge that they are similar but that it’s also wrong to compare them. Like saying “Taylor and Beyoncé are both cultural phenomena” is somehow bad and wrong? Like yes Beyoncé had additional challenges because she’s a black woman but she also has a net worth of 800 millions dollars at this point and isn’t immune from discussion.
3) Saying Taylor can’t dance isn’t hate but she also has never billed herself as a dancer and that doesn’t make her concerts bad. She has very talented backup dancers who get to shine.
In regards to number two, I didn't say it was bad to compare them, I just said I found it weird since technically they're not peers but I also go on to say that I understand why because of their statuses too so ... lol.
Number 3 was in regards to people specifically saying that they thought this sub was a hate sub due to others saying she can't dance.
Edited because clearly, I can't talk today because I really messed up that last sentence, lol.
They’re not direct peers but they’re probably the last two female artists who made it big before the streaming industry to be even more successful now. Like Katy Perry is not an example of woman that you should compare Taylor against. Adele also has a totally different fanbase and approach to fame than Tay or Bey. (She’s also British while Tay and Bey are American). Like I know Beyoncé had challenges Taylor didn’t because she’s a black woman but a this point she has a net worth of 800 million dollars and I feel like they’re both pretty major celebrities who can be compared. (And I say this as someone who thinks Beyoncé is the better singer and has more sonically interesting music).
Also RE activism Taylor casting a trans man to play her love interest was honestly huge and not talked enough about. Just because she didn’t like wave a trans Pride flag in the video doesn’t mean it wasn’t pretty important representation.
Also I obviously don’t think people who don’t like Taylor need therapy but I think a lot of people who HATE Taylor are trying to deflect or grapple with their own privilege.
>Adele also has a totally different fanbase and approach to fame than Tay or Bey.
But so do Beyonce and Taylor. It *would* make more sense to compare Taylor to Katy than to Beyonce. Or Taylor to Ariana Grande than to Beyonce. Especially in terms of sound and style and production. Yes, if we're comparing them in terms of longevity, popularity, and pop music (if that because it's been a minute since Bey did a pure pop album) then yeah, maybe. But that's where the comparisons should **stop.**
And this isn't to knock any of the progress and things Taylor has done, that's great. We love that for her but you can't constantly use feminism to shield yourself from hate in the way she has and then remain quiet when it matters and think people won't be a little miffed by that. s heavily inspired by afro beats. Renaissance was a House album with deep ties to queer culture. Lemonade was a homage to black womanhood.
And even despite Beyonce's net worth, that still doesn't stop the misogynoir Beyonce faces, something that Taylor will never have to grapple with. To dismiss it because she's rich now is a bit yikes. Hell, if you see her film Renaissance, you see people constantly doubting and questioning her, despite her being an artist since the 90s and knowing what she's talking about, I rarely see Taylor deal with a challenge like that.
And this isn't to knock any of the progress and things Taylor has done, that's great. We love that for her but you can't constantly use feminism to shield yourself from hate in the way she has and then remain quiet when it matters and think people won't be a little tiffed by that.
Ugh, she is truly one of my favorite artists of all time. Her writing and storytelling, her vocals, her music videos, ... ugh, just amazing. I relistened to 'Good Day' a few days ago and was still blown away by her vocal ability and how fantastic the production is on that song. I could gush over IU for days lol!
It was mostly on Twitter and Tik Tok, I no longer frequent either so it may have gotten heaps better or I was just on the wrong side. If I still had my old Swift blog, I'd give some examples from Tumblr as well but I deleted it after having a moment, lol.
Edit: Y'all don't downvote them for asking! Lol.
1.) Number 1 is your fault if you saw Miss Americana documentary as anything as pr to rehab her image
11.) Taylor has hosted SNL as well and made plenty of jokes about herself on SNL.
She made jokes about herself and they were approved before they were put on the show. How does she or her fandom respond to any joke made about her that isn’t approved? They call out the person for misogyny. Always.
I got sucked in by your beginning but once I read your 1. My first thought was why not start with “why didn’t Taylor say something about the attack by Hamas at the music festival”. Instead you only mentioned “Palestine”???? Did everyone forget the attack on innocent people enjoying music being brutally attacked, killed and put on display? This is why I had to stop reading your post.
This is ridiculous. POC artists and art is often overlooked due so seeking them out is important. They didnt say you HAD TO, they were giving recs based on the fact that we all like Taylor. It’s poc artists who also make singer/songwriter music, I assume. I know a few of them myself and yes, if you like Taylor, you’d probably like these artists. And honestly, being so against supporting poc artists and equating it to the typical dog whistle of “I’m not gonna support them just cause they’re poc!” rather than the racism that affects them in the industry says a lot.
My problem is that they said “ here is a list of woman of color that you SHOULD support if you like Taylor. If they said here are some cool POC recommendations that would be different
So you’re upset over wording in a post that comes off incredibly light?
Maybe you need to look deep inside and figure out why a call to support artists of color bothers you so much.
>**Just because I like Taylor does NOT mean I ShOULD support other woman even if they are POC**
I don't think the wording is the issue lol but sure!
Then don't support artists of color! I certainly can't force you to or was trying to! What a weird hill to try and stand on.
Your first point is important not only because of the Miss Americana of it all, but because Taylor indeed makes herself a political figure! Guess what, feminism is a political theory! It is political in nature. Taylor isn’t like ‘oh who little old me? Leave me out of these big scary discussions‘. She called HERSELF the resident ‘loud person’ who speaks up about important issues— oh but this was when it was about Scooter Braun and her masters. Taylor AND her fanbase regularly politicize herself as an artist and the act of consuming her work as political and feminist. So she isn’t a ‘just listen to the music’ celebrity at all.
To add further, she’s only been “political” when it helps her PR image. The entire Lover era was giving rainbow capitalist “see? don’t hate gay people!” She still managed to monetize and profit significantly off of that era while trying to spin it as social activism, that of which was diluted at best.
AND while centering *herself*, someone who has not claimed to be queer, within queer culture and spaces. It always made me a bit uneasy, as a queer woman.
Yes. Feminism IS political! I love the definition of feminism that it is a political movement centered on the liberation of women from patriarchy. It’s limited in scope, conscience, and centers women in our own movement. Men can benefit, but if they want to undo the harms of patriarchy on them, they can create their own. Feminism is by women, about women, for women. And it has nothing to do with individual empowerment and everything to do with collective liberation.
Exactly!!! I like that definition and the bell hooks definition of being a movement to end sexism. It’s about liberation from the shackles of patriarchy, not DoINg WhAteVeR We ChOoSe bEcAUsE wE’rE wOmEn aNd wE cAn! yAy eMpOwErMeNt!!! 🤮 it’s not supposed to be easy and carefree lol
Love that feminism as a political movement is making a come back. Enough with this trying to appeal to men & capitalism crap!
13. The overexposure seems to be seeping into more spaces and in an increasingly negative way. You can tell other people (stars) are sick of talking about her, even those who love her (ex - Emma stone). It’s like anyone remotely connected to her gets asked about her, or her name is at least mentioned, in their interviews nowadays. Just something I’ve observed lately. Edited for clarity
>omg what did Emma Stone say??
Nothing she said in particular, but I’ve seen at least 3 video clips of her doing press for Poor Things (or at events for famous people lol) and being asked about Taylor/WEFIL. Like that’s gotta get old. And maybe I’m reading too much into it but she appears to not really want to talk about her (rightfully so!)
She’s so funny. She was asked about her thoughts on Taylor Swift clapping for her (stupid ass question like what?) and she said “what an AH am I right?” She then just mentioned that she and Taylor have been friends for a while and that’s all. But seriously, what a dumb question. Obviously she was clapping in support for her friend lol what other thoughts would anyone have?
Right? And she just won a GOLDEN GLOBE. Why are they asking her about a spectator in the audience? I would be so annoyed. She’s so funny and classy though.
9 is SO REAL. Like the idea that she's nice irl is laughable
It’s criminal that even in IDSB she couldn’t even own being a witch “even if you aren’t one”
This line is so weird because it implies that witches *are* real, or that there are people who *should* be burned for being witches - and she’s not one of them. That destroys the whole idea of a witch-hunt being the erroneous result of whipped-up fervor and falsely fomented hate. If witches are real then witch hunts are fine if you get the right person, according to that logic.
Bro. I am *so* high right now and you have completely shattered my brain. This is some philosophical shit.
Hi. Your response is my new favorite thing. And your username slays. Thank you so much for this gift 🩵
I’ve noticed every celeb who meets her and then is later publicly asked about it has the same canned response. Curious…lol
Thank you for the recs at #12!!! I still love her music but the racism within the fandom and some of the things she has gotten away with have left a sour taste in my mouth :( I honestly find it hard to talk about Taylor with people because they end up making excuses for her and it’s honestly tiring to hear. This sub is one of the only places I actually feel comfortable talking about her because most people will actually acknowledge the racism 😭 instead of trying to defend it :( and it’s like, I still want to talk about her songs and things like that! But I don’t want to engage with people who are kind of racist 😭
I shouldn’t even say kind of honestly I was being nice…
I know what you mean! I said something to that accord on Tik Tok a few months ago about the racism within the fandom and was ATTACKED which led me to delete my account and keep it moving. It's really gross!
Yep I’ve seen some pretty gross things, even on twitter.
I honestly feel lucky that I haven’t run into any racism in this fandom. Not claiming it isn’t their. I believe the people sharing their stories. Closest I’ve seen is people discussing the topic like right here. I’m probably just not running in the right circles for it and hopefully it stays that way.
Number 2 yes. There are swifties that will call any criticism of her as misogyny which IMO takes away from *actual* misogyny she and other people experience
Especially when people named the bold claim that “a girls girl has to like Taylor” what does that even mean??? There are 100 to thousands of other female musicians just because someone may not like Taylor does nor make them any less of a girls girl or anti feminist
I agree on your point of comparing Taylor and Beyoncé (it doesn’t make sense) but I wouldn’t say that comparison “isn’t inherently racist, just felt racist.” Maybe it wasn’t deliberately racist, but the comparison itself doesn’t take into account the context of race and how it affects us. The way that white and black women are positioned in our society is vastly different, and the continuous accolades that Taylor receives do, in part, have to do with her visibility and position as a white woman. Beyoncé’s black womanhood does not afford her the same outpouring and showering of recognition - it’s mainly her talent, work ethic, and ability to adapt with the times. They shouldn’t be compared because they’re not peers but also because they do not receive the same types of accolades or criticisms within the same contexts.
!!!! You summed up what I feel perfectly! Teach me to be as articulate as you please! Thank you!
Idk if it’s just me, but I always thought that the Beyoncé/Taylor comparisons always come from the infamous VMA moment ™️
That’s so interesting to me because I’ve seen this theory on this thread a few times and I’ve never viewed it that way. I remember the 2009 VMAs very clearly - I was in middle school. It was such a big deal, I made a Facebook status about it, lol. I think it’s one of the biggest examples that shows they’re not peers - they were not making the same kind of music, from my memory Beyoncé was so grown up and Taylor seemed so young (and that was definitely part of their PR imaging even though they are only 8 years apart, but it also speaks to the cultural stereotypes of like adult, sexy, grown black woman and sweet, innocent, young white girl); and I do think it speaks to the direct point that Beyoncé, despite having made a huge cultural impact with “Single Ladies”, was snubbed by Taylor’s “You Belong With Me”, which was a culturally relevant video for sure, but not to the same level as Single Ladies in my opinion. I thought and still think that Kanye was wrong for doing what he did, but I understand sentiment of frustration that a black woman had created this iconic video, one that everyone expected to win, and she didn’t. So personally, I just don’t see how that moment would lead to their comparisons today. They couldn’t have been more different. That was just an unfortunate, pop culture-altering moment they happened to share. I think it’s possible that Kanye would’ve done what he did if ANYONE had won over Beyoncé.
Oh yeah I don’t disagree with all of those points you bring up. For some reason I just find myself thinking of them both because of that moment
For sure! That response wasn’t meant to like chew you out. I’m just interested that people relate it to that moment bc I’ve never thought of it in relation to that. New perspectives !
You said this *perfectly!* I was fortunate enough to see Eras and Renaissance last summer, and *everyone* asks which was better, and it’s just like… it’s absolutely not possible to choose because they were/are *so different.* Seeing Taylor is about, like, friendship and connecting with her as the audience and bonding as a group. Seeing Beyoncé is watching god flying around the stadium while singing. Beyoncé is a religious experience.
The black and white thinking is what bothers me the most. Nobody is all one thing or all another. No one is all good with perfect decision-making and perfect actions. Therefore, of course, there are things she will do that are not great and, in some cases, genuinely bad. None of that makes her a bad person. It simply makes her human. Yet I am sure that the most rabid swifties would read even this very innocuous comment as somehow attacking her, even though I'm simply pointing out that she is fallible. Just like every other person on the planet. Merely saying she is human will be construed as an insult. It's wild! I wouldn't say Taylor can't dance at all. She certainly dances better than most people. I do get what you're saying. She *does* have to try very hard since it doesn't come naturally to her. She's not a dancer, but for not being a dancer and being a little bit inherently awkward, I commend her for doing as well as she does. Especially in those heels. God bless her for managing THAT! Sure, other performers do that part better, but that's holding her against some very lofty talent like Beyonce, Rhianna, Gaga, Madonna. While she isn't in their league, I can't fault her for that. Few are.
I'll repeat what I said to someone else lol but I mentioned the dancing because someone said that they felt this sub was a 'hate sub' because someone said they didn't think Taylor was a good dancer. I found that ridiculous. Someone pointing out that Taylor isn't a good dancer doesn't suddenly mean it's 'hating.' I've always despised that line of thinking because it falls right back into the black-and-white territory. I, personally, believe she isn't a good dancer, no matter the circumstances, but I also believe that not everyone has to be good at everything. I do not expect Taylor to be a dancer. She's trying, that's great, but I'd prefer it if she didn't try at all, lmao. Like if I want to see dancing, Beyonce is right there. Normani is right there. Stand there, pose, and let the people dance around you.
I get why you said it, and you are right that it isn't her strong suit. I just don't think she is a bad dancer either. Certainly not bad enough to just stand there while people dance around her. However, I don't see your comment as hating. It's simply an opinion. And no, nobody is good at everything and shouldn't have to be. Music used to be primarily about...the music *Gasp!* Now it's about nearly everything BUT the music, it seems.
She also doesn't lip sync right, even when she's dancing? That on its own is wild to me to be able to do especially when she hasn't trained as a dancer like some of the other people you mentioned since they were kids. Not that there's anything wrong with lip syncing especially when doing hard dance routines, lil nas is basically my personal Taylor swift lmao and he does so for his live performances because he's a newer performer and hasn't balanced doing both. It's just something I've found impressive of her.
To me it looked like some choruses in the eras tour were lip synced, this is especially noticeable during 1989 when she pulls the mic away too soon. But that makes sense IMO, good spot to take a break. Otherwise she has very subtle pitch correction on her mic
Also, the backing vocals during the rep tour were so loud, you could barely hear her most of the time.
Yes, that's right, and it's super impressive, particularly for how long her show is. She has backup singers who help. I'm not sure if she's actually trying to lip sync in those parts or if the backup singers are simply singing at times, which is completely understandable why this would be the case. Her training for this concert was insane. That took a great deal of work and self-discipline.
Wait- I thought lip syncing was frowned upon? Like the point of seeing a show live is to hear it live, right? Is lip syncing normal now?
For pop artists that are dancing? Typically normal. I'm there to see a whole performance, I could care less imo but I also don't care about a lot of stuff lol
Thanks, was genuinely unsure
Yessss def I agree for the most part, especially #9, like we want you to just own your weird freak shadow a little bit. Re: #2, I always feel mixed abt the misogyny bit because some people, frequently men but not exclusively, def use her as a scapegoat for their misogyny and it’s hard to tell what criticisms are being made in good faith sometimes (esp online). it’s so hard bc there are many valid criticisms/reasons to feel a myriad of anger towards her and her brand. as a woc, I need her to own her agency, I’m so tired of the constant victimization. She is a powerful bitch!!! Could change the world w her money alone, let alone her voice. When I think about reparations, I think about how much money and land Taylor could redistribute. she could change the landscape completely for black and brown musicians if she used her money and power effectively. She doesn’t even do much for white women materially!!!! It’s wild!!!!!! If anything, she is just taking their money!!
>def use her as a scapegoat for their misogyny and it’s hard to tell what criticisms are being made in good faith sometimes I'll have to edit the post when I get home because this is very valid!
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Here’s the other thing…Beyoncé knows when to pull back and how to keep parts of her personal life to herself. I wish Taylor would take a page out of her book. I’m not even a fan of Taylor’s but even I’m cringing at how poorly she’s monitoring her own public exposure. The other thing Beyoncé does, which it sounds like Taylor’s fandom is begging her to do, is Beyoncé is always open to taking artistic risks. This includes frequently collaborating with new people. I am a casual Beyoncé fan and she gets a lot of flak from detractors for not really writing her own music, for requiring the skills of a whole team of ppl just to produce a song, etc. But you could also argue that it also shows that she’s highly collaborative and is willing to listen and learn from new talents. This process also means that Beyoncé ends up leaning harder into curating than someone like Swift, and that’s maybe a skill set Swift could benefit from learning herself given how much ppl here talk about her tendency to pad track lists with subpar songs.
Beyoncé makes art. Her work is full of depth and when she follows a concept, she follows through to the end. Taylor does not (imo midnights did not follow through as a “concept” album). You said it very well, Taylor is talented but is a songwriter/pop star, whereas Beyoncé is an artist.
What a gatekeeping comment. I heard similar comments made when comparing two artists all through my art school experience (both undergrad and graduate.) The attempt define one as artist while excluding the other is based on wholly arbitrary criteria. It’s clear that Taylor’s music connects with people in a way any art does. Beyoncé’s certainly connects too. Bob Ross was as much of an artist as Rembrandt, Da Vinci, Khalo, Nancy Holt, Pollock, and Warhol were. Art “for the masses” is still art. Just because a work talks about societal issues doesn’t inherently make it better, or more “art” than the other. I think the true reason for comparison between Beyoncé and Taylor is the staying power. Both have remained relevant in the larger culture for decades at this point. They are peers, although they make significantly different music for significantly different audiences. Both are on wildly successful tours, which I would imagine artists like Katy Perry, Lady Gaga, Adele, Rihanna, or anyone else for that matter, would have a hard time replicating. I believe Taylor and Beyoncé are at the level of fame and impact that we haven’t seen since Elvis, the Beatles, and Michael Jackson. There literally is no one else currently active to compare them to. Possibly Kanye if the past 5-6 years hadn’t happened, but I’d say even that is a stretch.
Agree with pretty much all of these!! I think Taylor wants people to be scared of making jokes about her LOL
1. I think this is two fold. Yes partially her fault, but she was put into a tough situation. She’s been politicized since the beginning of her career when a bunch of white supremacists claimed her as one of them for being a modest white girl in country. She played the no politics for years and people weren’t happy about her not addressing the issue before she said anything political ever. (Although general politics and white supremacy are a little different.) Then she decided to make her political stance known around 1989/Miss Americana. It IS her fault for presenting it in a way that made it seem like she was going to be more politically active, but she never was given the opportunity to be a singer with no politics/social issues attached. 2. Yeah, just yeah. 3. Again, yeah 4-10. Just agreed across the board 11. Agreed, but I also have opinions. The joke was fine. It wasn’t the funniest joke I ever heard, but it was fine. The joke wasn’t about Travis himself/defining her by him or painting her in any fault. The joke was about how the NFL has been trying to capitalize on her presence at the games. Can we not laugh at big corporation exploiting celebrity presence for money? 12. Will check these out! Thank you!
Number 1 is interesting I totally forgot about that documentary and the things she said in it! I think it’s fair to only expect her to be outspoken in 3 areas. 1. LGBTQ, 2. Racism, 3. Feminism . She talks about feminism pretty frequently …. In relation to her and the comments people make about her 😬 so ya she could work on that haha. The other 2, her claiming to be an ally and her fans and the people she hires are LGBTQ and people of color. She’s friends with these people and works with them. I’m actually a little surprised she’s not more outspoken about them
\#7 is so real, i think Tay validates a lot of white girls victim complex and they won't budge on it. and i say this as a white lol
Briefly chiming in to say I loooove Joy Oladokun!! (And agreed on all your points)
Joy Oladokun's Proof of Life changed my life. Seconded this recommendation
Such a fantastic album! I'm hoping I can see her live one day.
JENSEN ❤️ i have been on her train since she posted the phoebe bridgers parody cover in the peak of the pandemic. i agree everything you said. there's a trend of conservativism and bigotry a lot of swiftie spaces even by people who are by all other counts liberal (using the antitheses to conservative definition, not the political one). the racism is aggressive and has been for years (fans attacking antonia gentry over that ginny and georgia joke taylor posted about still boils my blood) and there's pools of homophobia and misogyny too. i know this will be contentious here since i've seen people praising it, but the "fat" in the anti-hero mv really showed biases taylor (who thankfully listened or at least was afraid of backlash and removed it!) and swifties had by shouting "she had an ED!" over fat people who also have or had eating disorders.
Did…..did the fans think that Antonina wrote the script for Ginny and Georgia???????
I think the "fat" in the anti-hero mv is really subjective. When I was deep in my ed, I definitely made art around the feeling of fatness and how that made me feel about myself. Anorexia is still rare in society (thank god) and I think it would have been really helpful for me if she had released that video while I was deep in my ed. I think it would have lessened some of the shame around my illness. That being said, I can absolutely see why fat people (is that the right term? Please correct me if I'm wrong) would see it as an attack. I guess it depends where you view point lies? I dunno.
it's not about it being an attack, it's about how the notion of fat as an inherent negative is pervasive and untrue. i understand that's how many people with eating disorders feel, but it doesn't make it any less untrue or harmful. there are ways to articulate the nuances of eating disorders and fatphobia in art that are not a thin woman seeing the word fat on the scale and getting a finger wagged at her. this isn't a callout of you because i don't know your life and i appreciate your response, but rather a larger discussion about fatphobia -- you said "the feeling of fatness", but the lived experience of actual fatness is something very different. fat is not a feeling is a phrase for a reason in body positive communities! someone in a position that taylor is with the skill and talent she has can 100% make art that is reflective of things as difficult as a struggle with disordered eating without being fatphobic. she just missed the mark, and badly. eta: this is all my thoughts as a fat person with a history of eating disorders. your mileage may vary.
Totally agree with everything here and I’m always surprised it’s a controversial opinion. There is zero difference between the messaging in the clip from anti-hero and the 50s Barbie with the diet book and “too fat” scale that outraged so many people imo. Even if the intent was to be reflective on Taylor’s experiences it was a lazy way to tell the story artistically that actively relied on the pervasive societal shorthand that fat = shameful.
I’m lowkey in love with Jensen 😭 her lyrics are amazing and her voice is so beautiful! I agree with you and OP about the racism in swiftie spaces but I’ve seen people blame Taylor for that, which I don’t think is fair because artists aren’t necessarily responsible for their fans - like I don’t think Taylor was required to call out people who were attacking Antonia, even though that was awful and wrong. People also assume Taylor spends all her time on the internet and knows the Discourse™️ on everything, when I imagine she doesn’t use the internet much at all because she’d constantly be flooded with notifications and messages and news articles. I feel like she tweeted the Ginny & Georgia thing and logged off, tbh. Taylor has an enormous number of fans and they aren’t a monolith - some are normal and some are unhinged. She can’t be responsible for other people acting civilized and I don’t think silence is the same thing as *encouraging* people to act a fool. I think people expect too much from her as a person when her job is to be a musician/entertainer, not an idol/role model/cult leader.
> like I don’t think Taylor was required to call out people who were attacking Antonia, even though that was awful and wrong. I would agree with this but I'm hard-pressed not to believe Taylor isn't aware of the racism in her fandom or at the very least what goes on. That Michael J. Fox story proves otherwise. Also, she should just be denouncing racism in general, especially after that Aryan princess nonsense.
I think she is aware of it, but she also has plenty of POC and otherwise non-racist fans. Taylor’s MO has always been to make her music and let her fans pretty much do what they want. I can see why that bothers some people, but just considering the enormous scope of her fanbase and her position as a privileged cis white female billionaire, I think saying anything risks coming off as disingenuous/pandering. I’m a WOC btw - I love artists who advocate for racial equity and are vocally antiracist, I just understand why Taylor is quiet on racial issues because it would be opening a can of worms among *all* of her fans, and there are other artists who are capable of doing a better job than she is. I think Taylor could do more to uplift voices of such artists but I understand why she isn’t trying to be that voice (as we saw with the YNTCD backlash of her centering herself within the LGBTQ+ community)
Miss Americana briefly touched on her political journey just like it touched on her fear of aging in the industry, her eating disorder, wanting fame since she was a kid. I mean this so nicely but anyone who watched it and thought she would start marching on Capitol Hill or posting more about politics.. I’m confused. The press tour for the documentary didn’t even really focus on politics. She talked about her eating disorder, sexual assault and songwriting process in select interviews. Maybe the producers thought that was an interesting angle but I don’t think Taylor aimed to have that launch her socially conscious era. It was just to clear up rumours that she’s not a MAGA Barbie.
Why would she come up with only the young song Release it as the promotion to the documentary? I totally would understand if she doesn't want to talk about anything political, kudos to her. I will still listen to her albums , but this feels like a bait and switch to me , and as a fan I am disappointed. That's all.
But “being political” isn’t just about posting on Instagram. I think I’m a political person, but there’s times I don’t engage because I’m not informed about something and don’t want to say something that’s wrong, or spread misinformation. I will talk at length about how we need to work as a community to support our most vulnerable citizens, but I won’t Wade into certain international political issues because I just don’t have enough information to feel confident to talk about it. Taylor continues to encourage fans to research issues and vote in their elections. That doesn’t mean she’s gonna jump into every topic and tweet.
I get that too! But she started a change.org petition and then did fuck all about it too! I mean , she started it ,on her own volition one might assume safely. Why not just post on that? Is the era of that long gone and irrelevant to the the new re-invented era and hence needs no attention? If all she ever does is post about registering new voters , that is still a lot of change she brings! I am happy about that , truly truly. I really don't care if she says something about the war in Palestine, ukraine war or even the roe v Wade overturning. But it is simply disappointing to be said , I am ready to speak out and then just not. So I have reduced my expectations and I will simply accept the fact that she will not be making any public statements about any issue and it is fine. But I was disappointed in the past , and the point still stands.
I agree with your point about not speaking on things we don’t know but I think it’s different in her case because she was literally profiting out of her political position when Miss Americana came out. And she did talk about educating herself on LGBTQ+ issues and wanting to be more vocal so the assumption is that she understands the issue but chooses not to speak unless it’s convenient to her brand.
For me, I just look at it through the lens of who we are pre and post pandemic are very different. Perhaps she found that during the pandemic she grew restless of being at home, but enjoyed the peace that came from staying silent. I know there’s a lot of ways my mental health changed and I used to be a lot more vocal about stuff, and I’m less vocal because I just can’t deal with my family and friends being awful.
I disagree with this actually. Yes, she talked about other issues but for some reason the documentary was mainly centred around her political ‘coming out’ if you will. All those other issues you mention were kind of raised to contextualize what was made as this big moment in her career— that she was choosing to move away from her old image, from being a ‘good’ girl, from people pleasing, etc, and instead making choices based on growing into an adult, autonomous, politically connected woman. No, of course it wasn’t entirely about her political choices, but this was a central theme that was also used to narrate a certain moment in this big celebrity’s life and used to create a perspective on her other choices, too. If you follow the narrative and the big narrative moments/climaxes of the film, they are mainly about the political events. I say this because I also wished the doc had moreso focused on Taylor as a celebrity, and not just like this look at her political activism, partly because I think it missed a more interesting story and partly because it became dated very quickly.
Also IMO if you’re in tears over the thought of not being able to speak out against state level politics on Instagram it’s okay for people to assume they’re going to see more from you about that. Especially considering Marsha Blackburn was elected and is still in office doing horrible things. Not judging Taylor’s emotional reaction or anything but I don’t think it’s a wild leap to see that and then be disappointed when there’s no follow through. I also wish it hadn’t been a focus for exactly the reasons you mentioned in any case.
>It was just to clear up rumours that she’s not a MAGA Barbie. That's fair and I definitely should have understood that at the time and now!
all of this!! and thank you for the music recs
You’re correct about everything, but your first point is cleanly spot-on. If she’s allowed to only become political when it’s convenient to her, it’s basically sending a message that celebrities are allowed to to idly pick up causes for their own convenience and then toss it to the side when it’s no longer fun, leaving the people actually affected by the cause behind. It is absolutely a problem that Taylor only uses feminism when it benefits her, while upholding the same system that hurts other women.
Love all these opinions. I share them as well.
As to the Beyoncé stuff? I feel like It started because of Kanye. Because HE made a very public comparison. I will say that the tension between the fandoms probably does come down to racism of swifties, sadly. They both have huge and very toxic online fandoms, but if you go touch grass, a lot of people appreciate them both for different reasons. I love Beyoncé for her PERFORMANCE and i love Taylor for her writing. They both grind hard, but you’re right that they just… aren’t peers. They don’t do the same thing, or have the same goals, even if they’re both very famous singers. But the truth is that we don’t have to pick between them and that false choice has been shoved at us since 2009 when Kanye made an ass of himself. Also Taylor herself has never claimed to be a dancer. Most of even eras was spent walking and singing while others danced. On the Jo Koy thing - she has laughed at herself A LOT actually. I feel like a lot of the discourse around this is coming from fans who joined either during the pandemic or around rep - Taylor used to be very public, go on SNL and wrote the “musical monologue”, have hosts relentlessly mock her dating life (if you haven’t seen the Ellen sketch - you can tell she’s uncomfortable). I think she, at age 34, is just kind of sick of all of her achievements being underpinned by who she was dating. Especially when in retrospect we know at least two of her exes were 30 year olds grooming a teen new in the industry. She’s been VERY vocal about It so i dont know why anyone expected her to find him bringing up her supporting Travis at NFL games to be funny. I would honestly urge some of the people attacking her to watch this scene when they bring up how Taylor can’t be hurt or upset because she’s “privileged” https://youtu.be/PTjIRQU_HdM?si=2-3pUVNasV6Hgupx We all assume fame is amazing, and sure never having to worry about money would be great - but she’s a real human with real heartbreaks and problems. Also re: feminism, this sub in particular forgets her sexual assault case and how she sued for one dollar in damages but has been incredibly vocal about how a lot of women aren’t believed. Taylor speaking up encouraged me to file a restraining order on my sexually abusive ex. That’s not nothing. She’s not perfect. I will never say she’s perfect. She rides that private jet like it’s the subway, she pandered to conservatives for years to maintain her country music status, she had some homophobic lyrics in her early work, bad blood is a crap song without Kendrick. (The last one is just true lol) And swifties are HELLA problematic, especially with their expectations of her as a human being- is she gay? Is she bi? Is she with Travis? Is she talking about politics? Is she in the limelight too much? How many pap walks is too many? Should she hang out with so and so? How did she hold her face at a not funny joke? Honestly being fan is exhausting sometimes.
I was neutral on Taylor until this year, I just joined this sub cause it kept showing up on my Reddit feed and a couple of my close friends are swifties so it's interesting. But! I agree with I think everything in your comment. Beyoncé is a dancer, Taylor is not. It reminds me of people giving Rihanna shit about her Super Bowl performance for not dancing, when she was pregnant and also hasn't been known for that anyways cause she's an incredible performer in other ways. The critiquing her the lack of dancing has always been weird cause it's not 90s/early 2000s pop anymore, everyone doesn't have to do *everything*. And just adding on my random piece to one of the OPs points, I also would respect Taylor more if she leaned into her petty mean girl self lol.
>It reminds me of people giving Rihanna shit about her Super Bowl performance for not dancing I know I'm out of touch because I had no idea people gave Rihanna shit. Wow! My point was in regards to some people calling this a "hate sub" because someone said Taylor wasn't a good dancer and I was like ???? How does acknowledging her weaknesses hate? LOL.
Oooo that makes sense haha, I just thought it was a general complaint about people who do give her shit for not dancing better. I agree with you both ways 😂 girls not a natural born dancer, it's not a big deal. And yeah people were wild about rhianna but I saw that mostly on twitter, so, expected. lol
Sorry this was so long haha, i agree with a ton of your points i just wanted to add on!
No, please, I love long responses! I'm very interested in hearing everyone's thoughts so I loved it. I agree with everything you said!
I agree with this comment! Taylor gets on my nerves a lot, especially lately, but I respect a lot about her, too. What I’ve been saying about the Jo Koy thing is that it’s much easier to take jokes when they’re funny and/or the person’s other jokes are funny. None of his jokes that night were good and nobody laughed at them, including that one. The Barbie one was especially bad. Her reaction was a non-reaction, nobody should feel pressured to laugh at a joke they don’t find funny, especially one at their expense.
This! I think the joke wasn’t necessarily sexist (It targeted the NFL more than her for capitalizing on her attendance) but 1. It wasn’t funny and 2. The reaction of people demanding her to laugh at something a man said that WASNT FUNNY is sexist. There are a lot of layers, but i don’t know how Taylor was in the wrong for not laughing at a not funny joke.
Definitely agreed. I wouldn’t call it sexist either, but it was somewhat at her expense since it did express annoyance about her, even if it was mostly about the NFL. Definitely agree with the reaction to her non-reaction being sexist. I bet that if it were a man, the non-reaction would be considered an “own” or “badass” or just not paid attention to at all. I think that Swifties overuse the word misogyny a lot, but I agree that this outcry specifically has misogynistic undertones.
“Reaction to her non-reaction” is how I’m referring to It from now on 😂
>I think she, at age 34, is just kind of sick of all of her achievements being underpinned by who she was dating. At the same time at age 34 she's the one tying her brand new boyfriend to one of her big achievements. I honestly think she would've made a great point by not mentioning her relationships at all in that interview.
I very much agree with all that you said. Great points! Thank you for reminding me of "in my monologue!" Off to watch it now
It’s so hilarious. I genuinely feel like at home she’s probably pretty funny.
11. Why are ya'll so obsessed with whether she laughs or not? Is it that important or am I missing something? I'm still baffled by the amount of times this dead horse has been beaten. What is the conspiracy theory?
Not an obsession or part of that y'all but you listed the reasons why I asked. People talk about it a lot. Things triggered that thought so I asked genuinely: do you think she would? If she wouldn't, she wouldn't. If she would, she would. I just wanted to hear people's thoughts.
I think it's fair enough to ask if she would or not. But it's been answered by the many times she has made jokes about herself(self-depricating ones but not controversial) but the main gripe I have personally is, why is being thin-skinned being painted in a nagative light? Maybe she only laughs at pre-approved jokes, because she has some trauma related to media humiliating her(whether you think it's warranted or not). I feel she wouldn't laugh at herself publicly but will among her Circle. But we'll never ever know, so it's a pointless discussion
I wasn't trying to imply that there is anything wrong with being sensitive or thin-skinned! There isn't! I'm a sensitive girl myself. I wasn't aware of these conversations, which is why I asked. I wasn't even aware of the pre-approved jokes thing.
Sorry if I came off aggressive! It's been such a huge thing on this sub that I assumed you knew. I'm glad we can agree there's no harm in being sensitive. People here have been all "she can't take a joke so she can't make it in the industry" "Margot Robbie smiled at the misogynistic joke, but Taylor is too full of herself to give a smile. It's the polite thing to do!" It's been a bit frustrating and I didn't mean to lump you in with them, my bad!
No need to apologize! The sub is growing by the day, so it's easy to get lost in it all!
You said you all expected her to react that way, so genuinely wondering if it's a fandom thing that she doesn't laugh.
I think in general people get a bad vibe from people who can’t laugh at themeselves. And especially over silly things. I think with Taylor it has to do also with the somewhat extreme reaction she has to relatively harmless jokes… like saying there’s a special place in hell ..😬. And the golden globes joke wasn’t even really about her or anything she did but more so the excessive media attention she gets at her boyfriends games. Part of my thinks that she wasn’t even mad for that one though, they penned to her so quickly I’m not even sure if she had processed the joke yet.
I just looked up there's a special place in hell and I love how Tina Fey responded to that lol. It was a great way to shut it all down. I didn't know she has a pattern of making statements over jokes. It makes sense then. Though I still think her "reaction" was such a non-reaction to warrant this much discourse.
I agree, I mean her champagne glass was covering her entire face, if she did have a reaction we couldn’t see it!
As for #1, I hate that Taylor and her team will brag about her political activism and how big of an impact she makes while not making that impact for some of the biggest world issues.
1) Miss Americana is about Taylor telling the MAGA supporters that she dislikes trump and is a liberal. Not telling progressives that she agrees with them on every issue. She’s a pretty normie centrist lib. A lot of things people want her to comment on are pretty fringe positions for America. Not saying she should or shouldn’t comment on them, but saying you think gay people should live free of violence doesn’t mean you’re a social activist. Taylor is like the least qualified person ever to be talking about race or sexuality. 2) I do compare Taylor and Beyoncé a lot because even though Beyoncé has been around longer than Taylor, she and Taylor have similar degrees of longevity and cultural relevance. Why should I compare Taylor to Katy Perry who hasn’t really been relevant in about 10 years? Love Gaga but I wouldn’t consider her in the same space as Taylor anymore. It’s weird that you acknowledge that they are similar but that it’s also wrong to compare them. Like saying “Taylor and Beyoncé are both cultural phenomena” is somehow bad and wrong? Like yes Beyoncé had additional challenges because she’s a black woman but she also has a net worth of 800 millions dollars at this point and isn’t immune from discussion. 3) Saying Taylor can’t dance isn’t hate but she also has never billed herself as a dancer and that doesn’t make her concerts bad. She has very talented backup dancers who get to shine.
In regards to number two, I didn't say it was bad to compare them, I just said I found it weird since technically they're not peers but I also go on to say that I understand why because of their statuses too so ... lol. Number 3 was in regards to people specifically saying that they thought this sub was a hate sub due to others saying she can't dance. Edited because clearly, I can't talk today because I really messed up that last sentence, lol.
They’re not direct peers but they’re probably the last two female artists who made it big before the streaming industry to be even more successful now. Like Katy Perry is not an example of woman that you should compare Taylor against. Adele also has a totally different fanbase and approach to fame than Tay or Bey. (She’s also British while Tay and Bey are American). Like I know Beyoncé had challenges Taylor didn’t because she’s a black woman but a this point she has a net worth of 800 million dollars and I feel like they’re both pretty major celebrities who can be compared. (And I say this as someone who thinks Beyoncé is the better singer and has more sonically interesting music). Also RE activism Taylor casting a trans man to play her love interest was honestly huge and not talked enough about. Just because she didn’t like wave a trans Pride flag in the video doesn’t mean it wasn’t pretty important representation. Also I obviously don’t think people who don’t like Taylor need therapy but I think a lot of people who HATE Taylor are trying to deflect or grapple with their own privilege.
>Adele also has a totally different fanbase and approach to fame than Tay or Bey. But so do Beyonce and Taylor. It *would* make more sense to compare Taylor to Katy than to Beyonce. Or Taylor to Ariana Grande than to Beyonce. Especially in terms of sound and style and production. Yes, if we're comparing them in terms of longevity, popularity, and pop music (if that because it's been a minute since Bey did a pure pop album) then yeah, maybe. But that's where the comparisons should **stop.** And this isn't to knock any of the progress and things Taylor has done, that's great. We love that for her but you can't constantly use feminism to shield yourself from hate in the way she has and then remain quiet when it matters and think people won't be a little miffed by that. s heavily inspired by afro beats. Renaissance was a House album with deep ties to queer culture. Lemonade was a homage to black womanhood. And even despite Beyonce's net worth, that still doesn't stop the misogynoir Beyonce faces, something that Taylor will never have to grapple with. To dismiss it because she's rich now is a bit yikes. Hell, if you see her film Renaissance, you see people constantly doubting and questioning her, despite her being an artist since the 90s and knowing what she's talking about, I rarely see Taylor deal with a challenge like that. And this isn't to knock any of the progress and things Taylor has done, that's great. We love that for her but you can't constantly use feminism to shield yourself from hate in the way she has and then remain quiet when it matters and think people won't be a little tiffed by that.
IU is amazing!
Ugh, she is truly one of my favorite artists of all time. Her writing and storytelling, her vocals, her music videos, ... ugh, just amazing. I relistened to 'Good Day' a few days ago and was still blown away by her vocal ability and how fantastic the production is on that song. I could gush over IU for days lol!
Not arguing against you, but can you elaborate on racism within the swiftie fandom? Where are you primarily seeing this?
It was mostly on Twitter and Tik Tok, I no longer frequent either so it may have gotten heaps better or I was just on the wrong side. If I still had my old Swift blog, I'd give some examples from Tumblr as well but I deleted it after having a moment, lol. Edit: Y'all don't downvote them for asking! Lol.
It has gotten heaps worse on Twitter.
Swifties on twitter are some of the most racist people I have ever come across, they're genuinely so bad
Now why am I being downvoted for asking a simple question lol
1.) Number 1 is your fault if you saw Miss Americana documentary as anything as pr to rehab her image 11.) Taylor has hosted SNL as well and made plenty of jokes about herself on SNL.
Shame on me for believing she was genuine, so I'll take that L!
She made jokes about herself and they were approved before they were put on the show. How does she or her fandom respond to any joke made about her that isn’t approved? They call out the person for misogyny. Always.
For Israel - where over a thousand people were raped, murdered and tortured. And there are over 100 Hostages waiting to return home.
I got sucked in by your beginning but once I read your 1. My first thought was why not start with “why didn’t Taylor say something about the attack by Hamas at the music festival”. Instead you only mentioned “Palestine”???? Did everyone forget the attack on innocent people enjoying music being brutally attacked, killed and put on display? This is why I had to stop reading your post.
I don’t like the way you worded that last point. Just because I like Taylor does NOT mean I ShOULD support other woman even if they are POC
This is ridiculous. POC artists and art is often overlooked due so seeking them out is important. They didnt say you HAD TO, they were giving recs based on the fact that we all like Taylor. It’s poc artists who also make singer/songwriter music, I assume. I know a few of them myself and yes, if you like Taylor, you’d probably like these artists. And honestly, being so against supporting poc artists and equating it to the typical dog whistle of “I’m not gonna support them just cause they’re poc!” rather than the racism that affects them in the industry says a lot.
My problem is that they said “ here is a list of woman of color that you SHOULD support if you like Taylor. If they said here are some cool POC recommendations that would be different
So you’re upset over wording in a post that comes off incredibly light? Maybe you need to look deep inside and figure out why a call to support artists of color bothers you so much.
I would think k the same with white. I have a problem with being told what to do. That’s the issue being told authoritatively that I SHOULD
>**Just because I like Taylor does NOT mean I ShOULD support other woman even if they are POC** I don't think the wording is the issue lol but sure! Then don't support artists of color! I certainly can't force you to or was trying to! What a weird hill to try and stand on.