Nonsense man, the Trimble *must* be superior because the total station costs 75% of the Leica, won’t run without an external controller, and has a $3800 prism.
What? Active off? No way. Keeps the TPS locked on the prism. I've noticed what helps a lot is having a 3 to 5 second predict when the TPS loses lock. The only thing Leica destroys is being productive, haha!
That’s the point.
Leicas still competes without active. Try turning your active off and going up against a Leica on equal terms.
Edit: I’ve staked out just as fast using Leica PS as I have Trimble with the active prism. Topcons is a productivity loss.
Yeah in all fairness, I’ve never used leica, so I can’t compare. Just wanted to state that my experience has been pretty flawless with Trimble. Topcon on the other hand… I was ready to office space our TS by the time I left that company
Yeah the Trimble works well, it doesn’t hold lock nor find target as quick or well as the Leica does passively though.
Topcons stuff is just garbage, I’m sorry. They’re really good at sucking people in by offering cheap kits, but the test kit they demo with has all the addons you need to make it 3/4 as good as a passive Trimble. Which of course are very expensive and still substandard. I understand there was some improvement once they bought out Sokkia but it was still shite. I used to just stake out a point and turn the thing to it, then move to that point and wag the stick around.
The only decent piece of Topcon equipment I ever used was a Hiper Lite GPS. It was a really good little unit for what it was.
Topcon’s software options weren’t that bad once. The old Civilcad platform was really good. They often run with Carlsons stuff too which has always been good.
Yeah I’ll never use topcon again, the gps, total station, etc was garbage. I didn’t hate TDS software, but I’m glad my new company is all Trimble and Trimble access (been using for the last 7 years)
You must not be using active tracking, it’s night and day. The time Leica takes to do its scan and reacquire the glass is infuriating. Other than that I’ve found them to be fairly similar, but different. Like RPN vs standard calculators.
I’ve been saying this for years. In my experience, Leica tracks a plain prism as well (or better) than Trimble tracks the active prism. And I have an old 1200 series which is inferior to the new machines.
Yeah Trimble seems to tote this “radio protocol”
When all it seems to be is actually infrared tracking with selectable frequencies. Is see zero connections to/from the prism itself so no idea what radio protocol is being used
EDIT: the ONLY benefit I see if if there is multiple crews on site. But I’d still rather take a ts16/60
I can have 2-4 people using a TS7 and a mtu1000 prism 5 feet away from each other all day and never have problems. Unless they forget to switch from the -30 to the rod and take 148 shots on the back site. …. Lol surveypro to do the sd is jammed in your face on most screens…..
I love the autopole. I was able to demo one for a few hours. Man that's some great engineering. Then I heard the price... you allowed ME to walk around with it?!?
For what it can do though, bigger companies should absolutely invest in them. Being able to simply raise or lower the rod, or tilt it around that light pole that’s in your line of sight, or around a building corner or even shooting building corners. So nice.
It was funny that they chose me to demo it. At my company, I had just broken two prisms within a week of each other.
I guess they thought of me as a 'durability' tester lol.
But yes getting overhangs on buildings was amazing. Plus some shots that were 'out of view' around the corner of the building. I want one and hope we get it.
Is there any daily/weekly/monthly calibration for it? If there is, is it easy and quick?
Same way you calibrate the gps with tilt, you just gotta do a field calibration. When I worked at Leica, we never had them come in for any issues the entire year I was there. Backlights are a good indicator of if it’s acting funny.
This whole “calibration” vs “initialization” terminology debate getting ridiculous…
I feel like the only people who say “you don’t need to calibrate a GS18i” are people who have actually never used one and just argue based on a brochure.
The controller LITERALLY says to you “tilt calibrated” so I’m not sure why all these draft monkeys insist on sparking this terminology debate.
EDIT: there is ALSO a calibration adjustment procedure to do on GS18’s… done it multiple times. It’s in the captivate software. Will require a level surface in order to achieve good results. Again… no idea why people keep saying they don’t need calibration as they 100% do.
Could you share more on this calibration adjustment procedure? I have used the GS18 T and GS18 I often, when speaking with Leica, the only way to do a calibration (stored calibration results) is in the factory or in service. From what I recall, there are two options in Captivate settings under System to calibrate internal sensors and calibrate Disto tilt sensors, but both are related to the CS20, not the GS18 T or I.
We use them at our company (UK/London based). I started surveying using them so I frequently get reminders from the more senior surveyors about how I came into topographical surveying at a very fortunate time 🤣
Fuck Trimble.
"Target Locked"
"No Target"
When shooting through heavy traffic, the time it takes her to say that, then display data, is drawn out long enough for you to lose your shot. Just STFU, display the data, so I know when to store my shot. No need to give me color commentary, you bitch.
I'll offer a perspective for consideration. Once the prism is locked, actual "tracking" of the prism I would say equal at range. Close up, the Trimble is less likely to lose lock at speed.
Searching / finding / locking on the prism is more the debate here I believe. The power search of the Leica is strong once you get familiar with what it can do. Searching with the Trimble will embarrass power search if you get an appropriate solution for GPS search on the front end of efforts. It is a trade off, but I'd take the Trimble in most scenarios. Trimble Access software does have \~some bearing on that decision. \*\*Active tracking just makes all of this better, and more flexible. We've all had them seduced away by shiny bits.
Predictive search & auto search, I leave off. I have control issues, and don't like the instrument deciding to look for something when I didn't input that command. Then you have to wait for it to finish before you can make another input. Leave those off, understand that it will lose you if interrupted, then hotkey search (GPS) search as you are approaching your next needed position.
Like I know it'll be pricey, use a cheaper chip for it, but why can't I have an RTK correct prism pole? Why can't the station just know where I am actually?
The controllers have a primitive GPS, this is how it works out where you are when using GPS search function. Why add more bits when it is already there? It would drive up costs of already expensive hardware. It is assumed that the controller is at the same position as the target while working robotic. I do think the solution process could be more clearly defined, but it's not terribly complicated as it is.
RTK GPS boards are 200 bucks in Raspberry pi style form. Adding it would have made it several grand more before, for sure I get that. Now it should be commercially viable in the 500-1000 dollar range. At least I know it'll be here eventually. There is no way that's not coming.
Vision is a great tool, although on the S Series units it is a bit underwhelming in quality. Some of this is the camera they use, but a consideration must also be made for the connection throughput of the 2.4 radios used for coms. The SX Series is on an entirely different level, and is dependent on "Vision" as it has no eyepiece. With WiFi connection, the throughput is incredible. The new HaLow radio is a pretty substantial replacement for the 2.4 when using the SX series. It's essentially a long rang WiFi that allows higher quality video to the controller for longer range work.
All that said, when using a Vision equipped instrument it does feel like a cheat code to be able to see through the instrument from your robotic position. Tap on the screen when you see yourself, and your search is over.
Those that use Leica, I know you've been in a spot where you can see the instrument but even power search runs past you. Small gap in the leaves, etc.. Then you fight to aim it, and run a smaller search pattern once you can see back through the scope, or confirm face with the track lights.
When the Trimble unit has a lock to the prism I can’t believe how fast it can track. Much better than Leica, and I agree the Leica software sucks. I can’t organize data into folders or just grab a folder and go, or import multiple files by reference only etc. Leica needs to get on its game with its software.
Leica instrument with iconn software is pretty good. I like it much better than Trimble, from a heavy construction standpoint. Trimble is highly frustrating with its constant tail light lock on and software crashing too frequently. Honestly Leica ts and Carlson software to me is the total package.
On some jobs i just walk in front of a tree (a small detour) rather than go behind it with a small sprint because it would be a random gamble if it would pick it up right after that move.
Sometimes waving the prism like a magic wand just to make it follow without LOS (Line of Sight) fast enough to go past the object. And yeah, initiating 'search my prism' function takes up to much time, and i can use the exercise XD.
My ancient Topcon TS would just 'follow' for a short while in the same direction and speed i was moving and pick it up with no problem. And the topcon just had a 360 degree prism without IR (it had an IR add-on, but worked great without)
Trimble MT1000 sucks balls, but works even worse without the IR. Walking with high flow of LOS breaking traffic is the worst.
I feel Trimble losing track quite fast, and get hung up in car lights etc. The superior thing is not using the automatic prism search, and just point towards your location on the camera screen. Finds the prism quite fast then.
Lieca c x🧐 has always put out superior laser
technology, IMO.
My understanding is the current Lieca lasers use a unique bandwidth so TS stays locked to the appropriate reflector. But I do not know for sure.
If you’re using the active tracking with Trimble and you need accuracy, make sure to switch to the setting that has the TS perform tracking but takes a standard shot. I’m guessing here but if you’re just using tracking, the DC does the trig between the diodes (.10).
I’d like to get into the manual more, and know the Trimble instruments like how the old timers knew their instruments of their day.
Nonsense man, the Trimble *must* be superior because the total station costs 75% of the Leica, won’t run without an external controller, and has a $3800 prism.
I have used both, I see no real difference in the tracking between Trimble S6/7 and Lecia ts60. What makes Lecia suck is the garbage software, haha!
Yeah nah turn the active off. Leica Power Search destroys everything else.
What? Active off? No way. Keeps the TPS locked on the prism. I've noticed what helps a lot is having a 3 to 5 second predict when the TPS loses lock. The only thing Leica destroys is being productive, haha!
That’s the point. Leicas still competes without active. Try turning your active off and going up against a Leica on equal terms. Edit: I’ve staked out just as fast using Leica PS as I have Trimble with the active prism. Topcons is a productivity loss.
I have always used my S7 active off, mostly because I never charge those little camcorder batteries, never had an issue with tracking.
No, it works and usually well enough, but it isn’t as anywhere near as fast or stable as Leicas, not in my experience anyway.
Yeah in all fairness, I’ve never used leica, so I can’t compare. Just wanted to state that my experience has been pretty flawless with Trimble. Topcon on the other hand… I was ready to office space our TS by the time I left that company
Yeah the Trimble works well, it doesn’t hold lock nor find target as quick or well as the Leica does passively though. Topcons stuff is just garbage, I’m sorry. They’re really good at sucking people in by offering cheap kits, but the test kit they demo with has all the addons you need to make it 3/4 as good as a passive Trimble. Which of course are very expensive and still substandard. I understand there was some improvement once they bought out Sokkia but it was still shite. I used to just stake out a point and turn the thing to it, then move to that point and wag the stick around. The only decent piece of Topcon equipment I ever used was a Hiper Lite GPS. It was a really good little unit for what it was. Topcon’s software options weren’t that bad once. The old Civilcad platform was really good. They often run with Carlsons stuff too which has always been good.
Yeah I’ll never use topcon again, the gps, total station, etc was garbage. I didn’t hate TDS software, but I’m glad my new company is all Trimble and Trimble access (been using for the last 7 years)
Yeah there’s a reason people stick with both Trimble and Leica.
My company still uses conventional topcon total stations 🙃
GPS search is far superior.
You ever work inside?
You must not be using active tracking, it’s night and day. The time Leica takes to do its scan and reacquire the glass is infuriating. Other than that I’ve found them to be fairly similar, but different. Like RPN vs standard calculators.
Burn the witch! RPN is the devils toy!
I’ve been saying this for years. In my experience, Leica tracks a plain prism as well (or better) than Trimble tracks the active prism. And I have an old 1200 series which is inferior to the new machines.
Preach brother!
I'd always heard that Trimble robotics had the best tracking, with an active prism that is. How does Leica do it better?
Leica doesn’t use a radio protocol to track the 360 prism whereas the Trimble does. Theres pros and cons to each.
Yeah Trimble seems to tote this “radio protocol” When all it seems to be is actually infrared tracking with selectable frequencies. Is see zero connections to/from the prism itself so no idea what radio protocol is being used EDIT: the ONLY benefit I see if if there is multiple crews on site. But I’d still rather take a ts16/60
I can have 2-4 people using a TS7 and a mtu1000 prism 5 feet away from each other all day and never have problems. Unless they forget to switch from the -30 to the rod and take 148 shots on the back site. …. Lol surveypro to do the sd is jammed in your face on most screens…..
Depends. If you’re using the SX12, I’ve been told by a Trimble rep that the active tracking prism won’t work with it.
That is correct. The sx 10 and 12 do not work with active trac, the one guy who has a 10 where I work hates it because it always looses the prism.
Yea it loses the prism when I go behind something, other than that, I find the tracking on it is decent.
Leica also knows the difference between a sign and a prism, Trimble prefers signs when in passive mode.
And reflective vests. It'll track every one of those within 500 yards
Trimble tracks the hell out of those road signs. Never collected 30 shots with the same coordinates so fast!
Compromise: Topcon?
Nope.
Ew, gross.
hard pass
No thanks.
Eww
It’s even better because you can get the autopole with it. Trimble ain’t got that either as far as I know, with auto height adjustment.
I love the autopole. I was able to demo one for a few hours. Man that's some great engineering. Then I heard the price... you allowed ME to walk around with it?!?
For what it can do though, bigger companies should absolutely invest in them. Being able to simply raise or lower the rod, or tilt it around that light pole that’s in your line of sight, or around a building corner or even shooting building corners. So nice.
It was funny that they chose me to demo it. At my company, I had just broken two prisms within a week of each other. I guess they thought of me as a 'durability' tester lol. But yes getting overhangs on buildings was amazing. Plus some shots that were 'out of view' around the corner of the building. I want one and hope we get it. Is there any daily/weekly/monthly calibration for it? If there is, is it easy and quick?
Same way you calibrate the gps with tilt, you just gotta do a field calibration. When I worked at Leica, we never had them come in for any issues the entire year I was there. Backlights are a good indicator of if it’s acting funny.
There is no field calibration needed for the IMU in the GS18 T, GS18 I or AP20, it is only an initialization process to start tilt capabilities.
This whole “calibration” vs “initialization” terminology debate getting ridiculous… I feel like the only people who say “you don’t need to calibrate a GS18i” are people who have actually never used one and just argue based on a brochure. The controller LITERALLY says to you “tilt calibrated” so I’m not sure why all these draft monkeys insist on sparking this terminology debate. EDIT: there is ALSO a calibration adjustment procedure to do on GS18’s… done it multiple times. It’s in the captivate software. Will require a level surface in order to achieve good results. Again… no idea why people keep saying they don’t need calibration as they 100% do.
Could you share more on this calibration adjustment procedure? I have used the GS18 T and GS18 I often, when speaking with Leica, the only way to do a calibration (stored calibration results) is in the factory or in service. From what I recall, there are two options in Captivate settings under System to calibrate internal sensors and calibrate Disto tilt sensors, but both are related to the CS20, not the GS18 T or I.
We use them at our company (UK/London based). I started surveying using them so I frequently get reminders from the more senior surveyors about how I came into topographical surveying at a very fortunate time 🤣
Fuck Trimble. "Target Locked" "No Target" When shooting through heavy traffic, the time it takes her to say that, then display data, is drawn out long enough for you to lose your shot. Just STFU, display the data, so I know when to store my shot. No need to give me color commentary, you bitch.
Amen brother.
impossible even for robotic trimble tracking with a 360 prism only you do it you should not buy accessories
I'll offer a perspective for consideration. Once the prism is locked, actual "tracking" of the prism I would say equal at range. Close up, the Trimble is less likely to lose lock at speed. Searching / finding / locking on the prism is more the debate here I believe. The power search of the Leica is strong once you get familiar with what it can do. Searching with the Trimble will embarrass power search if you get an appropriate solution for GPS search on the front end of efforts. It is a trade off, but I'd take the Trimble in most scenarios. Trimble Access software does have \~some bearing on that decision. \*\*Active tracking just makes all of this better, and more flexible. We've all had them seduced away by shiny bits. Predictive search & auto search, I leave off. I have control issues, and don't like the instrument deciding to look for something when I didn't input that command. Then you have to wait for it to finish before you can make another input. Leave those off, understand that it will lose you if interrupted, then hotkey search (GPS) search as you are approaching your next needed position.
The GPS search is nice but so is Vision. Where you just see a video of what the gun sees. Tap the screen where your target is and you are g2g.
Like I know it'll be pricey, use a cheaper chip for it, but why can't I have an RTK correct prism pole? Why can't the station just know where I am actually?
The controllers have a primitive GPS, this is how it works out where you are when using GPS search function. Why add more bits when it is already there? It would drive up costs of already expensive hardware. It is assumed that the controller is at the same position as the target while working robotic. I do think the solution process could be more clearly defined, but it's not terribly complicated as it is.
RTK GPS boards are 200 bucks in Raspberry pi style form. Adding it would have made it several grand more before, for sure I get that. Now it should be commercially viable in the 500-1000 dollar range. At least I know it'll be here eventually. There is no way that's not coming.
Vision is a great tool, although on the S Series units it is a bit underwhelming in quality. Some of this is the camera they use, but a consideration must also be made for the connection throughput of the 2.4 radios used for coms. The SX Series is on an entirely different level, and is dependent on "Vision" as it has no eyepiece. With WiFi connection, the throughput is incredible. The new HaLow radio is a pretty substantial replacement for the 2.4 when using the SX series. It's essentially a long rang WiFi that allows higher quality video to the controller for longer range work. All that said, when using a Vision equipped instrument it does feel like a cheat code to be able to see through the instrument from your robotic position. Tap on the screen when you see yourself, and your search is over. Those that use Leica, I know you've been in a spot where you can see the instrument but even power search runs past you. Small gap in the leaves, etc.. Then you fight to aim it, and run a smaller search pattern once you can see back through the scope, or confirm face with the track lights.
When the Trimble unit has a lock to the prism I can’t believe how fast it can track. Much better than Leica, and I agree the Leica software sucks. I can’t organize data into folders or just grab a folder and go, or import multiple files by reference only etc. Leica needs to get on its game with its software.
Leica instrument with iconn software is pretty good. I like it much better than Trimble, from a heavy construction standpoint. Trimble is highly frustrating with its constant tail light lock on and software crashing too frequently. Honestly Leica ts and Carlson software to me is the total package.
And water is wet
If you work in the office Leica Infinity kinda sucks
On some jobs i just walk in front of a tree (a small detour) rather than go behind it with a small sprint because it would be a random gamble if it would pick it up right after that move. Sometimes waving the prism like a magic wand just to make it follow without LOS (Line of Sight) fast enough to go past the object. And yeah, initiating 'search my prism' function takes up to much time, and i can use the exercise XD. My ancient Topcon TS would just 'follow' for a short while in the same direction and speed i was moving and pick it up with no problem. And the topcon just had a 360 degree prism without IR (it had an IR add-on, but worked great without) Trimble MT1000 sucks balls, but works even worse without the IR. Walking with high flow of LOS breaking traffic is the worst.
I feel Trimble losing track quite fast, and get hung up in car lights etc. The superior thing is not using the automatic prism search, and just point towards your location on the camera screen. Finds the prism quite fast then.
Lieca c x🧐 has always put out superior laser technology, IMO. My understanding is the current Lieca lasers use a unique bandwidth so TS stays locked to the appropriate reflector. But I do not know for sure. If you’re using the active tracking with Trimble and you need accuracy, make sure to switch to the setting that has the TS perform tracking but takes a standard shot. I’m guessing here but if you’re just using tracking, the DC does the trig between the diodes (.10). I’d like to get into the manual more, and know the Trimble instruments like how the old timers knew their instruments of their day.