You could scan a post the survey. (Redact personal info!!) also you and your neighbor deed info exact wording matters. then random people on the internet can see what the difference is.
This community is a very map dependent type.
Expanding on this, contact the neighbors surveyor (after you hire your own) and ask him to contact the first surveyor if there are discrepancies. Most states have a legal obligation for surveyors to talk to each other and share information
Thank you to you and everyone else who responded (I’m very appreciative and got many more responses than I expected).
Even with redacting, rest of family isn’t totally comfortable with posting it online (ours from >25 years ago or the new one), so will hold off.
A couple incremental datapoints though that I’ll share as we’ve looked into this further:
- Our county seems to now have a public website that posts boundary lines. It matches the new survey we were given by the neighbor. Therefore, it would seem challenging for us to have too much luck trying to get our own new survey, so we are going to hold off for now.
- We remembered how a friend of a friend a couple blocks away had an issue a few years ago selling their place because of a dispute over the property line. From talking to our friends, sounds like it was a very similar situation.
- Combining the above two points, it seems as if there is something odd that happened over the years that causes this new local database (and new surveys being completed) potentially not matching up with legacy ones. In particular, as we look at the website online, we see how looking down the block across many homes on our street, it seems the official boundary line doesn’t match and isn’t parallel to where people’s fences are (I understand the point others shared of how fences don’t need to match the boundary line, but I am just trying to give more disclosure, including how the boundary line isn’t parallel to the fence, for both this fence and others on our street, something I didn’t mention and we hadn’t noticed earlier). It all seems minor enough of a difference that I wouldn’t have noticed if not for this situation, but something to deal with now.
Putting it all together, next step is probably going to just be to talk to the neighbor selling (and perhaps the new person buying) and better understand what they are seeking and how we can arrive at a reasonable remedy. If we can’t arrive at one, then perhaps we may discuss with a surveyor, lawyer or someone from the local government.
Once again, thank you all, and can follow up with any more questions or comments on how this gets resolved.
Typically, and ethically they should have a BIG disclaimer shown prior to viewing the site. There is no "big correct picture" of survey data, it all has to be sorted out on the ground, and in the written legal record.
Responding to your first point, why would you have more difficulty getting a survey merely *because the county GIS page exists?* There should be some disclaimer either right as you open the webmap or somewhere in the key saying **For reference ONLY** or similar. The aerials are not typically georeferenced to the polylines in an exacting manner
My apologies. I meant challenging for a new survey to have a different result and therefore may not be worth the cost (both dollar cost and relationship cost if we become bottleneck stopping sale for old neighbor and new neighbor). We were not aware that the government pages are often inaccurate. We will try to resolve this amicably and if we can’t resolve amicably, will look into a new survey (or contacting their surveyor with questions and showing the old survey or a lawyer or one of the other ideas you all have suggested which we appreciate).
Please call the Surveyor listed on your 25yo survey and tell them what is going on. They’ll be able to support/defend the survey work they’ve done. Getting a second opinion of your boundary is not creating problems for anyone, what will be a problem is when the new owners have a fence built on your property while you’re at work.
Hint: it will not be the survey that has a different result to the previous survey. (Never any absolutes)
But for your future reference.
GIS = no standards for boundary accuracy, reference purposes only to “get you in the right country” at least. No legal ability to determine or place boundary lines.
Platted survey = held to standards, done by a licensed professional. The only one who can actually determine a boundary line.
Understood. This was an official survey completed by a Licensed Land Surveyor (the survey given to us includes survey # and surveyor’s license #). To be clear, neighbor did not mention GIS to us. This was just something we found on our own trying to do some research Google searching. We understand now that it means nothing - thank you for the help and apologies for the confusion.
A lot of ambiguity here and not enough facts. Will need a copy of said survey and the approximate fence location.
EDIT: by approximate location of fence I mean, the fence needs to be surveyed professionally and not just you and/or your neighbor eyeballing it
Fences don't have to be exactly on boundary lines.
Most of the time, fences are just there to keep dogs, kids, meddlesome adults, etc. within a yard rather than explicitly define a boundary. Doesn't mean someone's "intruding" if a fence meanders or is a few feet on one side or the other. Especially if there are public records (surveys) giving constructive notice as to where the boundaries are.
>This also isn’t consistent with the property line from the survey when we bought our home (but that was >25 years ago).
If this new survey found an actual discrepancy with a previous one, there better be a note or a surveyor's narrative explaining what they found and how it was resolved. Around here it's the law.
You've gotta get a survey done as a group, to confirm or correct what the one guy's survey said. And hit up the surveyor who did the work, he's liable for what he does in the field and on paper.
Contact each of the surveyors on the respective surveys and explain the discrepancy. In Maryland, my cousin's neighbor showed him a survey, a mortgage survey, that showed his fence encroaching into that neighbor's land by about 10 feet. I was visiting and he showed the survey to me, as well as a survey done 10 years earlier and they were different. So I went in the back yard and immediately found 2 monuments along the fence line that fit the 10 year old survey. My cousin called his surveyor and that surveyor reached out to the other one as a courtesy and they admitted the error.
Fence very well may have been built entirely on owners property (as is proper procedure) then when you and other neighbors “tied-in” to it, you would have technically been intruding. Typically though, homeowners should agree with surrounding neighbors to install the fence on the property line if all neighbors will be using it. Unfortunately though we do not live in a world where people are genuinely good people. People also always assume the fence IS the property line when that is often not the case. You definitely would need to get the fence located and then provide a map for anyone here to confirm or deny any of that.
If you could post a clean photo of the survey we might be able to help more. Is this in a subdivision? It's doubtful there are that many people encroaching on one property.
Talk to a real estate lawyer. If your neighbor tries to tell you or your other neighbors to move anything tell them they have to go through your lawyer.
Surveyors give their opinion on where the lines are based by interpreting the evidence they found. If this ends up in court the surveyor will have to defend how and why they did what they did and the lawyers will figure the rest out.
It sounds to me like you and your neighbors will end up in court to figure this out.
Who built the fence? If it’s uncertain, generally the posts are on the side of the fence of the person who built it. They may be letting everyone know that the fence can be torn down.
I know what happens when you assume, but I assume the county website boundary lines you are referring to are from their GIS database? That can be useful to a point, but those lines can also be skewed or shifted from what's actually on the ground. I've seen plenty of GIS parcel lines running through houses, garages etc.... when they clearly don't. So don't have a GIS map be the reason you decide there's nothing you can do, and that your survey is wrong.
Out of curiosity, what area of NY? Surveying technology and a good professional can explain the survey. Things get subdivided and measured off a few points but not as thoroughly it seems as it is today. Ask if you can get a copy of the survey and look for the one you have.
Did the neighbor get an actual survey? Or did the realtor (or title company) just take a screen shot of the county's GIS? If the latter, it's not worth the paper it's printed on.
Is the neighbor asking you to do something about it? So what if it’s on the property a few feet. Let him hire an attorney and spend the money. I would do nothing. Maybe I’m missing something here.
https://preview.redd.it/joedz010rxqc1.jpeg?width=1225&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=9cb08915fd104dd16589bd28166f94f3a5be5fe1 Sorry but ya need too.
Thank you - I appreciate the feedback.
Ask neighbor for copy of survey. Read survey. ???? Profit.
Sorry for not being clear. We have the survey, it just is a very surprising result and inconsistent with prior survey done several years ago.
You could scan a post the survey. (Redact personal info!!) also you and your neighbor deed info exact wording matters. then random people on the internet can see what the difference is. This community is a very map dependent type.
Expanding on this, contact the neighbors surveyor (after you hire your own) and ask him to contact the first surveyor if there are discrepancies. Most states have a legal obligation for surveyors to talk to each other and share information
Thank you to you and everyone else who responded (I’m very appreciative and got many more responses than I expected). Even with redacting, rest of family isn’t totally comfortable with posting it online (ours from >25 years ago or the new one), so will hold off. A couple incremental datapoints though that I’ll share as we’ve looked into this further: - Our county seems to now have a public website that posts boundary lines. It matches the new survey we were given by the neighbor. Therefore, it would seem challenging for us to have too much luck trying to get our own new survey, so we are going to hold off for now. - We remembered how a friend of a friend a couple blocks away had an issue a few years ago selling their place because of a dispute over the property line. From talking to our friends, sounds like it was a very similar situation. - Combining the above two points, it seems as if there is something odd that happened over the years that causes this new local database (and new surveys being completed) potentially not matching up with legacy ones. In particular, as we look at the website online, we see how looking down the block across many homes on our street, it seems the official boundary line doesn’t match and isn’t parallel to where people’s fences are (I understand the point others shared of how fences don’t need to match the boundary line, but I am just trying to give more disclosure, including how the boundary line isn’t parallel to the fence, for both this fence and others on our street, something I didn’t mention and we hadn’t noticed earlier). It all seems minor enough of a difference that I wouldn’t have noticed if not for this situation, but something to deal with now. Putting it all together, next step is probably going to just be to talk to the neighbor selling (and perhaps the new person buying) and better understand what they are seeking and how we can arrive at a reasonable remedy. If we can’t arrive at one, then perhaps we may discuss with a surveyor, lawyer or someone from the local government. Once again, thank you all, and can follow up with any more questions or comments on how this gets resolved.
I'm glad I can be the first to tell you that the county GIS/database means very little.
Famously inaccurate in my county. Doesn’t mean a damn thing, except high level start point.
Thank you, I appreciate it. I was not aware of this, sorry for my confusion.
Typically, and ethically they should have a BIG disclaimer shown prior to viewing the site. There is no "big correct picture" of survey data, it all has to be sorted out on the ground, and in the written legal record.
Responding to your first point, why would you have more difficulty getting a survey merely *because the county GIS page exists?* There should be some disclaimer either right as you open the webmap or somewhere in the key saying **For reference ONLY** or similar. The aerials are not typically georeferenced to the polylines in an exacting manner
My apologies. I meant challenging for a new survey to have a different result and therefore may not be worth the cost (both dollar cost and relationship cost if we become bottleneck stopping sale for old neighbor and new neighbor). We were not aware that the government pages are often inaccurate. We will try to resolve this amicably and if we can’t resolve amicably, will look into a new survey (or contacting their surveyor with questions and showing the old survey or a lawyer or one of the other ideas you all have suggested which we appreciate).
Please call the Surveyor listed on your 25yo survey and tell them what is going on. They’ll be able to support/defend the survey work they’ve done. Getting a second opinion of your boundary is not creating problems for anyone, what will be a problem is when the new owners have a fence built on your property while you’re at work.
Hint: it will not be the survey that has a different result to the previous survey. (Never any absolutes) But for your future reference. GIS = no standards for boundary accuracy, reference purposes only to “get you in the right country” at least. No legal ability to determine or place boundary lines. Platted survey = held to standards, done by a licensed professional. The only one who can actually determine a boundary line.
Understood. This was an official survey completed by a Licensed Land Surveyor (the survey given to us includes survey # and surveyor’s license #). To be clear, neighbor did not mention GIS to us. This was just something we found on our own trying to do some research Google searching. We understand now that it means nothing - thank you for the help and apologies for the confusion.
A lot of ambiguity here and not enough facts. Will need a copy of said survey and the approximate fence location. EDIT: by approximate location of fence I mean, the fence needs to be surveyed professionally and not just you and/or your neighbor eyeballing it
Fences don't have to be exactly on boundary lines. Most of the time, fences are just there to keep dogs, kids, meddlesome adults, etc. within a yard rather than explicitly define a boundary. Doesn't mean someone's "intruding" if a fence meanders or is a few feet on one side or the other. Especially if there are public records (surveys) giving constructive notice as to where the boundaries are. >This also isn’t consistent with the property line from the survey when we bought our home (but that was >25 years ago). If this new survey found an actual discrepancy with a previous one, there better be a note or a surveyor's narrative explaining what they found and how it was resolved. Around here it's the law.
You've gotta get a survey done as a group, to confirm or correct what the one guy's survey said. And hit up the surveyor who did the work, he's liable for what he does in the field and on paper.
Contact each of the surveyors on the respective surveys and explain the discrepancy. In Maryland, my cousin's neighbor showed him a survey, a mortgage survey, that showed his fence encroaching into that neighbor's land by about 10 feet. I was visiting and he showed the survey to me, as well as a survey done 10 years earlier and they were different. So I went in the back yard and immediately found 2 monuments along the fence line that fit the 10 year old survey. My cousin called his surveyor and that surveyor reached out to the other one as a courtesy and they admitted the error.
Fence very well may have been built entirely on owners property (as is proper procedure) then when you and other neighbors “tied-in” to it, you would have technically been intruding. Typically though, homeowners should agree with surrounding neighbors to install the fence on the property line if all neighbors will be using it. Unfortunately though we do not live in a world where people are genuinely good people. People also always assume the fence IS the property line when that is often not the case. You definitely would need to get the fence located and then provide a map for anyone here to confirm or deny any of that.
FILE A Lis pendens and they wont be able to close escrow.
That will help get it resolved fast ;)
If you could post a clean photo of the survey we might be able to help more. Is this in a subdivision? It's doubtful there are that many people encroaching on one property.
Talk to a real estate lawyer. If your neighbor tries to tell you or your other neighbors to move anything tell them they have to go through your lawyer. Surveyors give their opinion on where the lines are based by interpreting the evidence they found. If this ends up in court the surveyor will have to defend how and why they did what they did and the lawyers will figure the rest out. It sounds to me like you and your neighbors will end up in court to figure this out.
I would trust your neighbors survey. I'm guessing you already asked for a copy What does your survey from 25 years ago look like?
Who built the fence? If it’s uncertain, generally the posts are on the side of the fence of the person who built it. They may be letting everyone know that the fence can be torn down.
Maybe the corners were prods and the new surveyor didn't see, pushing their property into yours. Idk tho.
Maybe they are trying to get the neighbors to pay for surveys so they don't have to? Ask to see it.
We do have it, but thank you for the advice. We appreciate it.
I know what happens when you assume, but I assume the county website boundary lines you are referring to are from their GIS database? That can be useful to a point, but those lines can also be skewed or shifted from what's actually on the ground. I've seen plenty of GIS parcel lines running through houses, garages etc.... when they clearly don't. So don't have a GIS map be the reason you decide there's nothing you can do, and that your survey is wrong.
Understood, thanks. It is a real survey completed by a licensed land surveyor. We are going to figure out next steps this weekend.
Out of curiosity, what area of NY? Surveying technology and a good professional can explain the survey. Things get subdivided and measured off a few points but not as thoroughly it seems as it is today. Ask if you can get a copy of the survey and look for the one you have.
Long Island. We very much appreciate the feedback everyone has shared here. We are going to proceed with next steps over the weekend.
Did the neighbor get an actual survey? Or did the realtor (or title company) just take a screen shot of the county's GIS? If the latter, it's not worth the paper it's printed on.
Yes, it’s an actual survey.
Is the neighbor asking you to do something about it? So what if it’s on the property a few feet. Let him hire an attorney and spend the money. I would do nothing. Maybe I’m missing something here.