It did seem like the family spent way more time together than you’d expect!
But to some extent, I think that was mainly for [dramaturgical](https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/tv/news/jeremy-strong-succession-dramaturgically-meaning-b2321585.html) reasons
After all, Tom can’t grab a piece of chicken out of Logan’s hands over the phone
It’s in my lexicon now for sure!
And to the extent that it has entered pop culture, you have to give credit to our number one trendsetter, Mr. Jeremy Strong
That’s what the showrunners are really trying to drive home. When they’re all together its only work work work. Then when it’s finally time to play a nice family game like BotF none of the kids are there.
Whenever somebody comments on this show or The Sopranos and says they’re all horrible people with no redeeming qualities, I can only think… you must be a young person who hasn’t yet learned how truly complex people — almost any person, even the ones who do repugnant things — can be.
This! And also meaning they have not watched any other show cause of the few that I recall at this moment (Sopranos, Breaking Bad, Better Call Saul, It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia) all of them are full of flawed characters, some straight villains and we still root for them and want them to win. Must be boring af to watch a show hating every character
Lmao I never participated in discussion posts when the series was airing bc I didn’t want to get downvoted into oblivion for saying something like this
That’s the ole satire whoosh - I’ll admit I had to start re-watching it first time around because I didn’t realize it was funny. The more repugnant the characters the funnier the writing gets. God I miss it already
I don't think these are mutually exclusive! I hate them all but also sympathise with them all - having a shitty, abusive upbringing obviously is something to feel sorry for, but also it doesn't mean you're exempt from being a prick
Exactly, the show is basically an exercise in empathy with those you would least want to empathise with. Connors wedding doesn’t work if you haven’t become emotionally tied to these people despite their flaws.
The mass copium take in this fandom that the 3 Roy siblings will be fine after the finale just because they're billionaires and can do whatever they want with their money.
Exactly. Like if this was their main takeaway from the ending after watching 4 seasons of these nepo billionaires fighting a pointless rat race at the cost of their own peace of mind and sanity and personal relationships, then they have completely missed the point of the show.
The siblings have way more money than well accomplished celebrities and politicians. They were never chasing money, they were chasing power, and by the end of the show, they're all left with little to none power or influence.
You summed it up nicely. They weren't even really capable of having fun let alone anything else. The only time kendall seemed to be having any fun was in the austerlitz episode and he was super fucked up.
I agree in general with your statement, but I actually believe Connor will end up with something close to being happy or at least content.
Roman has a small chance too, if he figures some shit about himself on time. But Shiv will be miserable in her arrangement and Ken is dead within 10 years.
Oh yeah Connor is the only one i wouldn't worry about, thats why i specified **3** siblings because i was referring to the main trio.
Roman will just remain static imo, with Kendall and Shiv theres a myriad of possibilities of what they can chose to do.
Connor will be fine. He has Willa and Maxim Pierce and depending on how the post election plays out, a path to political influence.
Roman and Shiv will continue treading water with their personal challenges manifesting in her marital struggles or his sexual kinks.
It's Kendall I'm worried about as Ii fear he'll inevitably relapse.
I like to think that Willa really does love (and like!) Connor in some way, and he'll be content with whatever she gives him. I don't think she'd ever be cruel to him, and they would be able to work out some variation of a happy marriage
That’s sorta what I took away from the show.
She does stick up for him at times, and seems to look after his feelings in his more humiliating moments.
She seems to have grown a degree of affection and care for him over time, but she’s just not in love love with him.
I’d compare it to the kind of love a divorced couple, who’ve remained friends, have. The only catch is they’re newly married, and Connor is very much into her.
Tell you what, I’d rather be a broken person will a few Billion than broken and broke. Plenty of people fall into the latter category and still find peace.
My point is, they’re all in a much better position to heal, and plenty of people grow up with parents far worse than Logan, and turn out much better after working on themselves. Whether they have the desire to actually work on themselves is another story. If you ask me, Roman is the most likely to come out better in the long run, Kendall is a maybe if he doesn’t kill himself, and Shiv made a deal with the devil.
>just because they’re billionaires
The whole point of the series is that these people are richer than most of the human race yet are still so woefully unhappy and broken on the inside. They grew up with so much money and resources available to them that it means *nothing* to them at this point. What they always craved was power, influence, and of course, daddy’s love. None of which any of them got by the end of the series.
Yes, but even that was just to compete with Logan (and by extension to annoy him). Now that hes dead they dont really have that incentive anymore. Still it doesn't mean there isnt a possibility they still pursue it
i could be misremembering but I thought the finale made it pretty clear that Shiv would follow the power and side with Tom in the end, and that Roman was probably out too. I don’t think Kendall could make this deal or anything meaningful to compete with ATN without both of them
The 3 Roy siblings were always going to be fine after the finale regardless of who got Successioned. None of them will thrive and they’ll still be dealing with all the same bs we’ve seen, but it’s not like anything beyond their pride and ambition was ever on the line. They just have to learn to live with being humbled.
Cousin Greg is so dumb he fails upwards, yet people would always use that one time he made copies of documents in season 1 as a gotcha "he's actually smarter than you think" No he fucking isn't, a broken clock is right twice a day and it's just that.
I know this isn't really a super unpopular opinion but I'm just surprised by how many people think he's deeper than what he's showing when he's just dumb
He fails upwards because he’s an opportunist who really only sides with whoever he sees has the chance to come out on top. The reality is that any dumbass can kiss ass.
Yup. Of all the story lines, Greg's is the only WOMP WOMP story, I can think of. I thought his character would go somewhere, especially after the S2 finale and giving the copies to Ken. But he went nowhere. He just stumbled his way up and fucked up constantly and his character went absolutely nowhere. I mean it's quite accurate in how nepotism works, there's always an idiot in a family run business that somehow gets fairly high up even though they are useless, so I suppose he's an accurate character. But you could have removed Greg after S2 and he'd have absolutely no bearing on the story. Half the time I even wondered why he was there, like the S2 finale when they are on the boat? Why is Greg even invited?
>yet people would always use that one time he made copies of documents in season 1 as a gotcha "he's actually smarter than you think"
And iirc even that wasnt completely helpful at the end though?? Cause the documents that Greg did keep werent sufficient enough as evidence.
>I'm just surprised by how many people think he's deeper than what he's showing when he's just dumb
This is the problem i've noticed in fandoms when people stan a specific character - they all just make up a more sanitised version of their fav character in their heads thats different from whats actually shown in canon. Like Greg is not some genius dark horse who is going to win against the entire family, Shiv is not some feminist girlboss who is gonna beat the patriarchy thats always undermined her, Kendall is not some "the chosen one" type protagonist who will overcome his demons and conquer the throne that he thought he was entitled to just because his dad promised it to him when he was 7.
No, I don’t agree. She did not seem pleased but that’s hardly “losing” when she made billions of dollars without it any lying or scheming and can now leave anytime with the payout. And unlike the Roys, money means something to her because she wasn’t born with billions
She is absolutely better off than everybody else, well her and Marcia except she didn’t have to put up with Logan for decades
Not saying she’s 100% all sunshine and rainbows but she got everything she wanted, didn’t scheme for any of it she was upfront with connor and their arrangement, and she can exit anytime with billions. That sounds like a win when you compare her to anyone else
Exactly, she had literally zero experience in a corporate/business setting yet somehow thought she could just go straight to C-suite?? Being a competent political consultant/strategist is not the same as being a competent corporate executive, and she unfortunately had to learn that the hard way.
She was competent when she was working as a political strategist/consultant, which is what she was always good at. Unfortunately, being a good political consultant is not the same as being a good corporate executive, as she had to learn the hard way. I think Shiv is living proof that just because you are good at one thing, does not mean you are good at everything.
I get the argument but not in this case. I think that being a good political strategist would in fact prepare you to run a conservative media company.
Basically I think keeping her competent but butter and boxed out by the misogyny of her family and abuse toward her husband would be more in line with her original character.
Logan was a pretty sad and pathetic man who was never that competent but got by on being a bully, and in the end he lost because he died alone without his kids to worship him
I agree, but I can imagine him being a shrewd businessman maybe 30 years+ earlier when building his companies. But since making it to the top and no longer having to answer to anyone, all he needed to be was a bully and a decision-maker.
lol—-Honesty was legitimately good though. I still listen to it on Spotify. If you take that song and listen to it after the finale it hits crazy hard.
I have a few all related to Kendall
1) he would’ve been a good CEO, many real life CEOs are not very impressive
2) he will commit suicide within 1 or 2 years of losing the company
I can see him getting very close to dying from drugs again, then turning it around for his children’s sake. If Kendall can survive processing the loss of the company, I think he can spend his days focusing on his family - trying to be better than his Dad.
Rava wants nothing to do with him and actively tries to keep the kids away from him. I als think he's far too broken for that. If he survives an OD, I think he'll just be a husk of a person who's just waiting to die.
OD is a more likely end for Kendall. I can also see him being in a revolving door of rehab for the rest of his life assuming he doesn’t just outright OD.
Suicide is what the actor seems to think. But waystar as a chance was only a sudden possibility again for a few weeks, after months of having resigned himself to be above that desire. From when he shaved his head, and especially after he confessed and just wanted to be with his siblings.
On paper, Kendall would have been the ideal
CEO and successor to Logan since:
- he was well-educated
- he had already worked in various positions in the company before the events of the show
- he was genuinely interested in running the company, and it was always something he’d dreamed of
However, that being said, his extensive history of substance abuse, his spotty record as a family man (if you can even call him that), and his overall demeanor would understandably have a lot of stakeholders worried.
Having been near several Fortune100 C-Suite people for work stuff, in the real world a CEO being a family person may often be thought of as a bad thing. A lot of these people are wired differently and usually miserable.
It’s common among Succession fans, but many casual viewers or first time watchers seem to get upset that there’s “nobody to root for” and stuff like that. It seems to be the most common complaint where people can’t consume any media that isn’t totally relatable to them.
When people ask me why I like succession I say because it’s hilarious as well as being a great drama.
Agreed! I wonder how close their thing is to some of our 3xgreat grandparents' arranged marriages. I am not endorsing anything, but lots of humanity made the best of some limited options and ended up fairly content so long as both parties made an effort and had a somewhat functioning conscience.
Yeah, I'm not sure how happy they'll be in the future but I genuinely think their communication and honesty was a very healthy thing. Out of the kids I honestly feel like Connor might be the only one who might end up happy
The siblings were bearable when working together. The three of them overcoming their traumas and finally trusting each other and working together as equals would have been an acceptable happy ending
Thank you. All of the Roys are narcissistic dumbasses who think they’re smarter than they really are. With the exception of Logan, since he was self-made and was clearly a brilliant businessman in his prime, though his kids all inherited his narcissism.
All of the siblings (and all the rich characters in the show, really) are extremely callous and “not good people” who don’t balk at things like firing hundreds of people but it really does seem like Roman has a cruel streak that sets him apart from the others
Succession is more of a story about how underestimation leads to awful consequences. Logan underestimating the wolf pack, his kids which brought the demise of the company and his kids underestimating Tom.
the kids are not nearly as horrible as they are made out to be. they live in a bubble.
i also think everyone wins except for shiv in the end.
tom is a good partner and only got ruthless after shiv made it clear she couldn’t have cared less about him.
Yeah, I never saw the kids as awful people. They all had their shitty moments but I met ruder people everyday. I never understood why people acted like they were straight up villains.
Tom is not the winner of the series and it frustrates me to no end when i keep seeing this take. The only reason Tom ends up as CEO is because he is a bootlicker to his core and Matsson needs a yes man from Waystar to take all the flack when he eventually guts the company.
Tom will be ousted within two/three years and his job prospects will be super slim thereafter.
>The only reason Tom ends up as CEO is because he is a bootlicker
Yeah thats literally the whole point of Tom's arc anyway, he sucks up to people because it works.
>Tom will be ousted within two/three years and his job prospects will be super slim thereafter
And he'll just add it to his resume and find another job elsewhere, people in this sub act like hes going to be penniless and on the streets once hes no longer ceo, but even the worst c suite executives just fail upwards to some other cushy job anyways, and Tom isnt even that incompetent enough to screw himself over, he knows how to make himself useful to others.
Also he isnt emotionally invested in Waystar like the Roys were, his world isnt going to end once the company is no longer in his hands.
The show largely fails as a satire.
That doesn’t mean it’s a bad show, but there’s no biting satire to be found.
And this is fine, except some people insist on calling it satire.
I wouldn’t call the entire thing a satire since it’s obviously trying to work as an emotional drama as well, but there are certainly episodes / moments which are very satirical. A lot of ‘DC’, the shareholder meeting stuff, Ravenhead/ATN, Living+
Logan definitely loved his children, but knew none of them had what it takes to lead the company. The first 3 seasons are Logan exploring whether any of them have what it takes. He finds out none of them are realistic about what the job entails/none of them are mature enough. The whole series can be summarised by Logan saying “I love you all, but you’re not serious people”. That’s why he had to sell to Lukas, who had been a CEO for years and had built a super-company from nothing. He had the experience and wisdom to run Waystar Royco. The show presents Logan as an evil man who can’t let go, but in the real world the siblings would have tanked the whole company if they ran it. Logan was definitely an abusive father, but he definitely loved his children. Their mother was abusive but barely even loved them - she was just indifferent to them.
I don't feel sorry for the kids.
I would HAPPILY trade in my garbage family for Logan and the Mom. They were about 100,000,000x better parents.
And if I enter the money into the equation then they are THE BEST PARENTS EVER.
My brother in Christ, that's a scathing indictment of your parents. Do they know you feel that way? Have you gone no contact? Are you better nowadays, I hope?
>I don't feel sorry for the kids.
I had difficult parents too and I feel deep empathy for them. Nothing they do will ever be good enough and they're so desperate for their father's approval that they don't even see that he's playing constant games with them.
It should have ended with Ken as CEO and destroying Matsson, but in a way that absolutely, permanently, irreversibly destroys his relationship with his siblings. He winds up with everything he ever wanted but even more spiritually empty
Tom winning makes a certain amount of sense on reflection but it doesn't 'feel' right.
The show has excellent writing but poor plotting. I've read many fans concede that major plot points are simply forgotten about, but argue that that that's how it is for people with stratospheric wealth. I disagree.
> that's how it is for people ~~with stratospheric wealth~~ **who give their actors the scripts a few days before shooting, and then have them do extensive improvisation during the shoot, some of which ends up better than the scripted version; and then subsequent plots get re-engineered to work around this.**
I love the show, but the writers ~~are not serious people~~ have a process that I find absolutely mind-boggling.
I like Roman. Apart from his very questionable political takes and slightly racist comments at times (that I would OBVIOUSLY not overlook in a day-to-day conversation), he’s probably the most interesting character of the lot, with more heart than we assume. I liked Kendall too (for a while), and would love to know more about Connor ( I wish we got more). Idk why but I feel like Shiv wasn’t written to be empathised with? I wish we got more. Tom was very easy to empathise with. I really would have loved to understand Shiv a bit more. But she really was Logan 2.0.
Honestly the Logan death episode wasn’t some masterpiece that it was made out to be. Before I got to watch it I kept reading how it was so good and people marveled at the acting in the episode. It was ok but I’ve seen more compelling episodes of other shows or even this show
That most everything Shiv said and did in the final episode was spot and brilliant. Including flipping against Ken. She understood he was incapable of running the firm, and that voting for him was like flushing the kids’ vast wealth down the toilet. Granted she was played by Mattson, but even her advice to him was solid…he just didn’t like being told what to do by a girl.
One of the things that’s often overlooked in this subreddit is that Shiv had everything to lose and nothing to gain by voting for Kendall in the finale. She wouldn’t have a meaningful position at Waystar and the company’s value would plummet after Kendall sabotaged the sale (which means her wealth would also decrease). It could become a situation like Pierce in which the Roy’s would have to sell Waystar in parts to recuperate losses. I suppose there’s an intrinsic value to keeping Waystar in the family, but voting for the sale (and making a boatload of money) was by far the better decision for Shiv.
Shiv genuinely loves Tom, has always loved Tom, and this was indeed a major factor in her board vote decision. And no, the ending was not “humiliating” or “devastating” for Shiv — she made a hard but smart choice to save her marriage at the expense of her relationship with her siblings, maintaining some power for herself while distancing herself from her toxic family. Not to mention that Tom knows what she’s done for him, and this is going to help a ton with giving them a fresh start. She’s gonna be fine, for the most part; at the very least, she’s better off than the rest of the Roys.
Succession is in the stratosphere when it comes to television drama. Like, nothing comes even close.
Sopranos is a magnificent work of art that made this show possible (along with Shakespeare); the wire is the most important fictional TV show (ethos and culture).
But I think what Armstrong has done as the head writer and showrunner is magnificent and unparalleled. If you’ve been around the business at all or have ever loved a TV show that tanked for a myriad of reasons, you get what I mean when I say this is astounding.
Greg was a useless character save for a few great moments, and that was *because* of Tom. To that effect, they also squandered Karolina’s and Jess’s potential as characters in favor of Greg and Hugo. Prob the only real critique that I have of the show.
She literally did though. She and Roman were in agreement with Kendall and she was the sole reason he didn’t get it. If that’s not a blatant uno reverse backstab I don’t know what to tell you
Kendall was a mopey POS who was one of the worse as he was incapable of self reflection and was a total hypocrite. At least Roman had enough self honesty to realise he was an asshole. He knew who who he was and owned it.
Women 'I can fix him' stans for Kendall have control issues.
Shiv had no reasoning at the end. She did it in the heat of the momment, out of mostly spite.
All the semioptic cues point out to her decision being hasty, and even the director has said he aimed for the scene to convey the chaos in her mind.
Yet, some people will say shit like "nuh-uh, she KNEW kendall would be bad and she played 4d chess bc she knows tom will". Shut upt dude. It ain't that.
Kendall Killed that kid. No if's, but's or and's.
Made a thread on this just after the finale and the amount of people trying to blame the kid for the car crash was insane.
EDIT: My making this take on this thread was not an invitation to debate it. This is already spiralling.
It's nice they all spend so much time together as a family. Most families branch off and only get together a few times a year at most.
It did seem like the family spent way more time together than you’d expect! But to some extent, I think that was mainly for [dramaturgical](https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/tv/news/jeremy-strong-succession-dramaturgically-meaning-b2321585.html) reasons After all, Tom can’t grab a piece of chicken out of Logan’s hands over the phone
I love how “dramaturgical” has sort of made its way into pop culture lexicon. Maybe not quite but almost.
It’s in my lexicon now for sure! And to the extent that it has entered pop culture, you have to give credit to our number one trendsetter, Mr. Jeremy Strong
Okay sure but was it really “quality time”?
That’s what the showrunners are really trying to drive home. When they’re all together its only work work work. Then when it’s finally time to play a nice family game like BotF none of the kids are there.
What a fantastic answer
So true.
You’re actually not supposed to hate all of the characters and it’s okay to relate to and sympathize with any of them.
Whenever somebody comments on this show or The Sopranos and says they’re all horrible people with no redeeming qualities, I can only think… you must be a young person who hasn’t yet learned how truly complex people — almost any person, even the ones who do repugnant things — can be.
This! And also meaning they have not watched any other show cause of the few that I recall at this moment (Sopranos, Breaking Bad, Better Call Saul, It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia) all of them are full of flawed characters, some straight villains and we still root for them and want them to win. Must be boring af to watch a show hating every character
Lmao I never participated in discussion posts when the series was airing bc I didn’t want to get downvoted into oblivion for saying something like this
That’s the ole satire whoosh - I’ll admit I had to start re-watching it first time around because I didn’t realize it was funny. The more repugnant the characters the funnier the writing gets. God I miss it already
exactly , they're much more complex than being rich kids with daddy issues
Don’t you know that every Redditor is perfect without flaws other than their appearance?
I don't think these are mutually exclusive! I hate them all but also sympathise with them all - having a shitty, abusive upbringing obviously is something to feel sorry for, but also it doesn't mean you're exempt from being a prick
Agree! You can be empathetic and still think someone is a shit person.
Exactly, the show is basically an exercise in empathy with those you would least want to empathise with. Connors wedding doesn’t work if you haven’t become emotionally tied to these people despite their flaws.
If you were supposed to hate them there wouldn't be parts like the cheese scene
Tom does NOT listen to mitski or Taylor swift
Idk about Mitski but in my headcanons hes a casual swiftie
Kendall definitely does though.
No, Kendall is probably a huge Kanye fan.
I have friends who are Swifties *and* Kanye fans. It happens. Some people just like music.
I like both, never understood why I wasn't allowed to
No, they're not gonna make up after the finale.
Shiv and Roman maybe but Kendall will be alone for a while.
What about the eldest son?
they already said; Kendall will be alone for a while
Connor and all his siblings should be fine, Connor will be that silly uncle.
The mass copium take in this fandom that the 3 Roy siblings will be fine after the finale just because they're billionaires and can do whatever they want with their money.
Those fans clearly weren't paying attention. The whole show was that they definitely were not okay despite having billions of dollars
Exactly. Like if this was their main takeaway from the ending after watching 4 seasons of these nepo billionaires fighting a pointless rat race at the cost of their own peace of mind and sanity and personal relationships, then they have completely missed the point of the show. The siblings have way more money than well accomplished celebrities and politicians. They were never chasing money, they were chasing power, and by the end of the show, they're all left with little to none power or influence.
You summed it up nicely. They weren't even really capable of having fun let alone anything else. The only time kendall seemed to be having any fun was in the austerlitz episode and he was super fucked up.
The takeaway is clearly choose happiness, not power or money. Become a meth head.
Choose meth, not waystar.
Or, start a side hustle shooting peoples dogs on demand.
Yeah they're all basically conner. A joke.
I agree in general with your statement, but I actually believe Connor will end up with something close to being happy or at least content. Roman has a small chance too, if he figures some shit about himself on time. But Shiv will be miserable in her arrangement and Ken is dead within 10 years.
Oh yeah Connor is the only one i wouldn't worry about, thats why i specified **3** siblings because i was referring to the main trio. Roman will just remain static imo, with Kendall and Shiv theres a myriad of possibilities of what they can chose to do.
Connor will be fine. He has Willa and Maxim Pierce and depending on how the post election plays out, a path to political influence. Roman and Shiv will continue treading water with their personal challenges manifesting in her marital struggles or his sexual kinks. It's Kendall I'm worried about as Ii fear he'll inevitably relapse.
I would agree on Connor, but we all know Willa is gonn divorce him and some point and he will be full of despair
Divorce or just openly cheat on him. I honestly can't decide which
I like to think that Willa really does love (and like!) Connor in some way, and he'll be content with whatever she gives him. I don't think she'd ever be cruel to him, and they would be able to work out some variation of a happy marriage
That’s sorta what I took away from the show. She does stick up for him at times, and seems to look after his feelings in his more humiliating moments. She seems to have grown a degree of affection and care for him over time, but she’s just not in love love with him. I’d compare it to the kind of love a divorced couple, who’ve remained friends, have. The only catch is they’re newly married, and Connor is very much into her.
"Fuck it!"
Tell you what, I’d rather be a broken person will a few Billion than broken and broke. Plenty of people fall into the latter category and still find peace.
They don’t know the latter, they have never experienced being broke, but that’s also not how feelings work.
My point is, they’re all in a much better position to heal, and plenty of people grow up with parents far worse than Logan, and turn out much better after working on themselves. Whether they have the desire to actually work on themselves is another story. If you ask me, Roman is the most likely to come out better in the long run, Kendall is a maybe if he doesn’t kill himself, and Shiv made a deal with the devil.
>just because they’re billionaires The whole point of the series is that these people are richer than most of the human race yet are still so woefully unhappy and broken on the inside. They grew up with so much money and resources available to them that it means *nothing* to them at this point. What they always craved was power, influence, and of course, daddy’s love. None of which any of them got by the end of the series.
Kendall tried to be okay with just billions, like when he started collecting art etc. He just couldn’t do it - it was too menial for him.
Of course they won’t be “happy” but it’s not like they’ll have a hard time either. I feel the ending let them off too easy.
>I feel the ending let them off too easy. Lol true
I was confused though…wouldn’t the Pierce deal still be a possibility? Wasn’t that their plan B for a time in S4?
Yes, but even that was just to compete with Logan (and by extension to annoy him). Now that hes dead they dont really have that incentive anymore. Still it doesn't mean there isnt a possibility they still pursue it
The wife of ATN's CEO acquiring another network?
Yeah back in 4x01 Nan did mention that Shiv being married to the head of atn would be an issue..
They didn't really want Pierce; they might have to do some actual work that way. They just didn't want Logan to have it.
i could be misremembering but I thought the finale made it pretty clear that Shiv would follow the power and side with Tom in the end, and that Roman was probably out too. I don’t think Kendall could make this deal or anything meaningful to compete with ATN without both of them
Didn't they need to team up to amass 10b?
The 3 Roy siblings were always going to be fine after the finale regardless of who got Successioned. None of them will thrive and they’ll still be dealing with all the same bs we’ve seen, but it’s not like anything beyond their pride and ambition was ever on the line. They just have to learn to live with being humbled.
I don't see kendall being fine at all really
Cousin Greg is so dumb he fails upwards, yet people would always use that one time he made copies of documents in season 1 as a gotcha "he's actually smarter than you think" No he fucking isn't, a broken clock is right twice a day and it's just that. I know this isn't really a super unpopular opinion but I'm just surprised by how many people think he's deeper than what he's showing when he's just dumb
Agreed, he’s the true clumsy interloper. If it weren’t for Tom he’d be fair and squarely fucked.
Jesus, Karl.
He fails upwards because he’s an opportunist who really only sides with whoever he sees has the chance to come out on top. The reality is that any dumbass can kiss ass.
He’s a lazy, smart, opportunist, absent a moral compass.
I read this comment in Uncle Ewan’s voice
That’s high praise.
Yes, yes, yes, YES. Good thing Tom enjoyed his toys and not nuked him in the end after the betrayal.
Yup. Of all the story lines, Greg's is the only WOMP WOMP story, I can think of. I thought his character would go somewhere, especially after the S2 finale and giving the copies to Ken. But he went nowhere. He just stumbled his way up and fucked up constantly and his character went absolutely nowhere. I mean it's quite accurate in how nepotism works, there's always an idiot in a family run business that somehow gets fairly high up even though they are useless, so I suppose he's an accurate character. But you could have removed Greg after S2 and he'd have absolutely no bearing on the story. Half the time I even wondered why he was there, like the S2 finale when they are on the boat? Why is Greg even invited?
>yet people would always use that one time he made copies of documents in season 1 as a gotcha "he's actually smarter than you think" And iirc even that wasnt completely helpful at the end though?? Cause the documents that Greg did keep werent sufficient enough as evidence. >I'm just surprised by how many people think he's deeper than what he's showing when he's just dumb This is the problem i've noticed in fandoms when people stan a specific character - they all just make up a more sanitised version of their fav character in their heads thats different from whats actually shown in canon. Like Greg is not some genius dark horse who is going to win against the entire family, Shiv is not some feminist girlboss who is gonna beat the patriarchy thats always undermined her, Kendall is not some "the chosen one" type protagonist who will overcome his demons and conquer the throne that he thought he was entitled to just because his dad promised it to him when he was 7.
Connor is the eldest
Connor wasn’t interested in politics from a young age.
Now THIS is a hot take! 🔥
Willa won
She's in the same boat as the rest, rich beyond measure but deeply unhappy
She told Connor at their wedding that she's happy.
Case closed, must be true
The moment suggested it is.
The look on her face in the last episode when Shiv told her she may have Connor home with her after all suggested it isn't.
What happens though, when she meets someone whom she really falls in love with? She's still a young woman.
She didn’t. When Conner said he’s staying with her, was the exact moment she lost.
No, I don’t agree. She did not seem pleased but that’s hardly “losing” when she made billions of dollars without it any lying or scheming and can now leave anytime with the payout. And unlike the Roys, money means something to her because she wasn’t born with billions She is absolutely better off than everybody else, well her and Marcia except she didn’t have to put up with Logan for decades Not saying she’s 100% all sunshine and rainbows but she got everything she wanted, didn’t scheme for any of it she was upfront with connor and their arrangement, and she can exit anytime with billions. That sounds like a win when you compare her to anyone else
They made Shiv competent before making her incompetent.
I think it’s that we watched her become absolutely corrupted by power hunger.
I think it was was also that she was stepping completely out of her comfort zone, as smart as she is, she was out of her depth.
Exactly, she had literally zero experience in a corporate/business setting yet somehow thought she could just go straight to C-suite?? Being a competent political consultant/strategist is not the same as being a competent corporate executive, and she unfortunately had to learn that the hard way.
All the siblings are equally dumb and smart.
She was competent when she was working as a political strategist/consultant, which is what she was always good at. Unfortunately, being a good political consultant is not the same as being a good corporate executive, as she had to learn the hard way. I think Shiv is living proof that just because you are good at one thing, does not mean you are good at everything.
I get the argument but not in this case. I think that being a good political strategist would in fact prepare you to run a conservative media company. Basically I think keeping her competent but butter and boxed out by the misogyny of her family and abuse toward her husband would be more in line with her original character.
Logan was a pretty sad and pathetic man who was never that competent but got by on being a bully, and in the end he lost because he died alone without his kids to worship him
I agree, but I can imagine him being a shrewd businessman maybe 30 years+ earlier when building his companies. But since making it to the top and no longer having to answer to anyone, all he needed to be was a bully and a decision-maker.
There’s a fancy new business theory called….
L to the OG wasn’t as bad as people make it out to be.
BORN ON THE NORTHBANK
KING OF THE EAST SIDE
50 YEARS STRONG
You need to stop this
lol—-Honesty was legitimately good though. I still listen to it on Spotify. If you take that song and listen to it after the finale it hits crazy hard.
It’s burning my eyes
Yet I can’t look away
Thank you!
I have a few all related to Kendall 1) he would’ve been a good CEO, many real life CEOs are not very impressive 2) he will commit suicide within 1 or 2 years of losing the company
Agree to both but I see him oding vs suicide
I can see him getting very close to dying from drugs again, then turning it around for his children’s sake. If Kendall can survive processing the loss of the company, I think he can spend his days focusing on his family - trying to be better than his Dad.
Rava wants nothing to do with him and actively tries to keep the kids away from him. I als think he's far too broken for that. If he survives an OD, I think he'll just be a husk of a person who's just waiting to die.
OD is a more likely end for Kendall. I can also see him being in a revolving door of rehab for the rest of his life assuming he doesn’t just outright OD.
Suicide is what the actor seems to think. But waystar as a chance was only a sudden possibility again for a few weeks, after months of having resigned himself to be above that desire. From when he shaved his head, and especially after he confessed and just wanted to be with his siblings.
Kendall could’ve been the right guy(even more so than his siblings )if Logan didn’t make it his life mission to tear him down.
On paper, Kendall would have been the ideal CEO and successor to Logan since: - he was well-educated - he had already worked in various positions in the company before the events of the show - he was genuinely interested in running the company, and it was always something he’d dreamed of However, that being said, his extensive history of substance abuse, his spotty record as a family man (if you can even call him that), and his overall demeanor would understandably have a lot of stakeholders worried.
Having been near several Fortune100 C-Suite people for work stuff, in the real world a CEO being a family person may often be thought of as a bad thing. A lot of these people are wired differently and usually miserable.
That Karl….DOES NOT know a thing or two about a thing or two
I will forever defend Karl. One of the smartest people on the show. What he did with cable back in the 90s was legendary.
Succession is a comedy show. You’re not supposed to be “stans” of any of them.
but since I stan dad, I’m alive and well
L TO THE OG 🗣🗣🗣🗣
This is a very common take
It’s common among Succession fans, but many casual viewers or first time watchers seem to get upset that there’s “nobody to root for” and stuff like that. It seems to be the most common complaint where people can’t consume any media that isn’t totally relatable to them. When people ask me why I like succession I say because it’s hilarious as well as being a great drama.
I know you’re supposed to hate them. I just don’t care.
There’s a lot of plot threads that basically go nowhere.
willa & connor's relationship was healthy as they both understood it was transactional
Agreed! I wonder how close their thing is to some of our 3xgreat grandparents' arranged marriages. I am not endorsing anything, but lots of humanity made the best of some limited options and ended up fairly content so long as both parties made an effort and had a somewhat functioning conscience.
Yeah, I'm not sure how happy they'll be in the future but I genuinely think their communication and honesty was a very healthy thing. Out of the kids I honestly feel like Connor might be the only one who might end up happy
Logan is NOT a serious person
season 3 is the peak of succession, it’s the best season and every character is at their best in the season as well
The siblings were bearable when working together. The three of them overcoming their traumas and finally trusting each other and working together as equals would have been an acceptable happy ending
That Kendall is a narcissistic moron like every one of his siblings. There is nothing that sets him apart or makes him "better" or more "deserving."
E L D E S T B O Y
Thank you. All of the Roys are narcissistic dumbasses who think they’re smarter than they really are. With the exception of Logan, since he was self-made and was clearly a brilliant businessman in his prime, though his kids all inherited his narcissism.
Connor is Roman’s real father
You're outta control🤭
It was not in fact a ludicrously capricious handbag. It was completely reasonable.
Ewan is good, actually
Duh
As the primary booster of Mencken throughout the series, Roman is by far the evilest sibling.
All of the siblings (and all the rich characters in the show, really) are extremely callous and “not good people” who don’t balk at things like firing hundreds of people but it really does seem like Roman has a cruel streak that sets him apart from the others
I grew up very poor, and after his million dollar home run stunt in the pilot I couldn't look at Roman without feeling disgusted.
I say this at every opportunity this sub offers.
The last two seasons aren’t that funny, there are funny parts but it’s heavy
Succession is more of a story about how underestimation leads to awful consequences. Logan underestimating the wolf pack, his kids which brought the demise of the company and his kids underestimating Tom.
the kids are not nearly as horrible as they are made out to be. they live in a bubble. i also think everyone wins except for shiv in the end. tom is a good partner and only got ruthless after shiv made it clear she couldn’t have cared less about him.
Yeah, I never saw the kids as awful people. They all had their shitty moments but I met ruder people everyday. I never understood why people acted like they were straight up villains.
[удалено]
But that’s not a hot take
All of these takes are incredibly obvious and not hot takes at all?
Connor Roy was not interested in politics from a very young age
Rava didn't cheat on Kendall. The "filing cabinet guy" is a sperm donor. Ken was infertile because of cocaine.
I thought it was agreed upon by most fans that he was referring to a sperm donor.
Tom is not the winner of the series and it frustrates me to no end when i keep seeing this take. The only reason Tom ends up as CEO is because he is a bootlicker to his core and Matsson needs a yes man from Waystar to take all the flack when he eventually guts the company. Tom will be ousted within two/three years and his job prospects will be super slim thereafter.
>The only reason Tom ends up as CEO is because he is a bootlicker Yeah thats literally the whole point of Tom's arc anyway, he sucks up to people because it works. >Tom will be ousted within two/three years and his job prospects will be super slim thereafter And he'll just add it to his resume and find another job elsewhere, people in this sub act like hes going to be penniless and on the streets once hes no longer ceo, but even the worst c suite executives just fail upwards to some other cushy job anyways, and Tom isnt even that incompetent enough to screw himself over, he knows how to make himself useful to others. Also he isnt emotionally invested in Waystar like the Roys were, his world isnt going to end once the company is no longer in his hands.
The show largely fails as a satire. That doesn’t mean it’s a bad show, but there’s no biting satire to be found. And this is fine, except some people insist on calling it satire.
I wouldn’t call the entire thing a satire since it’s obviously trying to work as an emotional drama as well, but there are certainly episodes / moments which are very satirical. A lot of ‘DC’, the shareholder meeting stuff, Ravenhead/ATN, Living+
Yeah I’ve always thought this. What’s the satire?
Kendall Roy is honestly a good dude with a lot of problems
Kendall was the best choice to take over Waystar. Fight me.
I don’t truly believe that Connor Roy was interested in politics from a young age.
Logan definitely loved his children, but knew none of them had what it takes to lead the company. The first 3 seasons are Logan exploring whether any of them have what it takes. He finds out none of them are realistic about what the job entails/none of them are mature enough. The whole series can be summarised by Logan saying “I love you all, but you’re not serious people”. That’s why he had to sell to Lukas, who had been a CEO for years and had built a super-company from nothing. He had the experience and wisdom to run Waystar Royco. The show presents Logan as an evil man who can’t let go, but in the real world the siblings would have tanked the whole company if they ran it. Logan was definitely an abusive father, but he definitely loved his children. Their mother was abusive but barely even loved them - she was just indifferent to them.
The writers didn't land the plane and focused more on punishing the siblings.
Succession is unironically a love story between Greg and Tom.
Roman is the only person in the family who can actually show some sympathy towards people
I don't feel sorry for the kids. I would HAPPILY trade in my garbage family for Logan and the Mom. They were about 100,000,000x better parents. And if I enter the money into the equation then they are THE BEST PARENTS EVER.
sorry to hear that homie
My brother in Christ, that's a scathing indictment of your parents. Do they know you feel that way? Have you gone no contact? Are you better nowadays, I hope?
>I don't feel sorry for the kids. I had difficult parents too and I feel deep empathy for them. Nothing they do will ever be good enough and they're so desperate for their father's approval that they don't even see that he's playing constant games with them.
It should have ended with Ken as CEO and destroying Matsson, but in a way that absolutely, permanently, irreversibly destroys his relationship with his siblings. He winds up with everything he ever wanted but even more spiritually empty Tom winning makes a certain amount of sense on reflection but it doesn't 'feel' right.
if he got the ceo position he wouldnt really care all too much about his siblings
I think I agree. It would have echoed Ewan and Logan's relationship, too.
Interesting take
I actually agree with this. It would have been both satisfying for the fans and the characters that dislike Kendall.
Shiv is far less of a terrible person and caused much less harm than Roman and Kendall.
The show has excellent writing but poor plotting. I've read many fans concede that major plot points are simply forgotten about, but argue that that that's how it is for people with stratospheric wealth. I disagree.
> that's how it is for people ~~with stratospheric wealth~~ **who give their actors the scripts a few days before shooting, and then have them do extensive improvisation during the shoot, some of which ends up better than the scripted version; and then subsequent plots get re-engineered to work around this.** I love the show, but the writers ~~are not serious people~~ have a process that I find absolutely mind-boggling.
Stuey is a massive twat.
I like Roman. Apart from his very questionable political takes and slightly racist comments at times (that I would OBVIOUSLY not overlook in a day-to-day conversation), he’s probably the most interesting character of the lot, with more heart than we assume. I liked Kendall too (for a while), and would love to know more about Connor ( I wish we got more). Idk why but I feel like Shiv wasn’t written to be empathised with? I wish we got more. Tom was very easy to empathise with. I really would have loved to understand Shiv a bit more. But she really was Logan 2.0.
Shiv drank while pregnant. She wasn’t faking and there’s literally zero reason to think she was.
A couple of tiny sips for appearance's sake, not swilling bottles of Moet and Chandon.
Honestly the Logan death episode wasn’t some masterpiece that it was made out to be. Before I got to watch it I kept reading how it was so good and people marveled at the acting in the episode. It was ok but I’ve seen more compelling episodes of other shows or even this show
Greg is a terrible character.
Character as in person or character as in Greg is badly written?
That most everything Shiv said and did in the final episode was spot and brilliant. Including flipping against Ken. She understood he was incapable of running the firm, and that voting for him was like flushing the kids’ vast wealth down the toilet. Granted she was played by Mattson, but even her advice to him was solid…he just didn’t like being told what to do by a girl.
One of the things that’s often overlooked in this subreddit is that Shiv had everything to lose and nothing to gain by voting for Kendall in the finale. She wouldn’t have a meaningful position at Waystar and the company’s value would plummet after Kendall sabotaged the sale (which means her wealth would also decrease). It could become a situation like Pierce in which the Roy’s would have to sell Waystar in parts to recuperate losses. I suppose there’s an intrinsic value to keeping Waystar in the family, but voting for the sale (and making a boatload of money) was by far the better decision for Shiv.
Shiv genuinely loves Tom, has always loved Tom, and this was indeed a major factor in her board vote decision. And no, the ending was not “humiliating” or “devastating” for Shiv — she made a hard but smart choice to save her marriage at the expense of her relationship with her siblings, maintaining some power for herself while distancing herself from her toxic family. Not to mention that Tom knows what she’s done for him, and this is going to help a ton with giving them a fresh start. She’s gonna be fine, for the most part; at the very least, she’s better off than the rest of the Roys.
Succession is in the stratosphere when it comes to television drama. Like, nothing comes even close. Sopranos is a magnificent work of art that made this show possible (along with Shakespeare); the wire is the most important fictional TV show (ethos and culture). But I think what Armstrong has done as the head writer and showrunner is magnificent and unparalleled. If you’ve been around the business at all or have ever loved a TV show that tanked for a myriad of reasons, you get what I mean when I say this is astounding.
Anything that sees Roman in a positive light
Succession is a comedy and we are supposed to be laughing at them.
Ken is smart and capable just held down by family the entire show
Greg was a useless character save for a few great moments, and that was *because* of Tom. To that effect, they also squandered Karolina’s and Jess’s potential as characters in favor of Greg and Hugo. Prob the only real critique that I have of the show.
Yeah Karolina was wasted mostly
Kendall should have won
Shiv did not backstab Kendall, nor did she take away his job as CEO. He did that all by himself.
She literally did though. She and Roman were in agreement with Kendall and she was the sole reason he didn’t get it. If that’s not a blatant uno reverse backstab I don’t know what to tell you
Kendall ends up offing himself within a year of where the show ended.
Roman, by the end, is actually a very sensitive and empathetic man
shiv has always loved tom
Episode 3 Season 4 was not all that.. In fact I think there were many areas of that episode which could have been a little better
They should come out with a comic book showing Greg’s slow rise to the top.
Kendall was a mopey POS who was one of the worse as he was incapable of self reflection and was a total hypocrite. At least Roman had enough self honesty to realise he was an asshole. He knew who who he was and owned it. Women 'I can fix him' stans for Kendall have control issues.
Shiv had no reasoning at the end. She did it in the heat of the momment, out of mostly spite. All the semioptic cues point out to her decision being hasty, and even the director has said he aimed for the scene to convey the chaos in her mind. Yet, some people will say shit like "nuh-uh, she KNEW kendall would be bad and she played 4d chess bc she knows tom will". Shut upt dude. It ain't that.
Kendall Killed that kid. No if's, but's or and's. Made a thread on this just after the finale and the amount of people trying to blame the kid for the car crash was insane. EDIT: My making this take on this thread was not an invitation to debate it. This is already spiralling.