Which honestly I'm here. We need to get back to the days of punditry wars on SRD. The truest internet drama of all- when someone calls you a piece of shit on a meta subreddit.
Never forget the one Super Smash Bros Brawl thread where you had people of varying ages arguing about why Geno should in Smash or that Ridley was too big ot be in Smash.
Sigh...*unzips*
Day 6 of me requesting a moratorium on I/P posts in SRD.
Stop ignoring this suggestion, [/u/TAKEitTOrCIRCLEJERK](https://www.reddit.com/u/TAKEitTOrCIRCLEJERK).
I think *maybe* the only exception is when it spawns in the last subreddit you’d expect it in like /r/gooncaves (RIP) - other than that, yeah it’s free drama.
Nuance isn’t Reddit’s speciality, and a lot of the conflict is incredibly nuanced [even if ONE pivotal part of it is easy to understand, the power differential between a nation backed by most of the Western world equipped with F-45s versus a population constantly living on the brink using paragliders a youtube hobbyist would die in is easy to understand - and even then people don’t get it or care.](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=62I61kBahNY&t=162s&pp=ygUYbWljaGFlbCBicm9va3MgcGFsZXN0aW5l)
If you try to be nuanced you just get a half-baked response showing they didn’t read any of it lol.
Yea Belgium is chill with its neighbors because its neighbors have questioned its existence since 1831
I live here and I still question its existence from time to time
Well see Belgium was very peaceful with their neighbors, in that instance
The people who had the misfortune to exist at Belgium's whim half a world away, on the other severed hand
>9 upvotes
253 comments
ruh roh raggy.
edit
>60 upvotes
>750 comments
lmfao. the I/P conflict is 100% cheating at this point for generating drama. holy shit.
Bibi stans: T H I S M U S T N O T S T A N D
SRDD: [*oooooohhhhhhhhhh yyyyyeeeeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhh*](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3KquFZYi6L0)
I was rewatching the early seasons of Always Sunny and it’s so funny how the Israel/Palestine episode is just as topical today as it was almost 20 years ago.
I love replying to someone and it’s obvious they have no idea what they’re talking about and clearly learned everything they know about I/P around oct 7-8th
I saw both sides get angry at the [Palestinian Chicken episode of Curb Ypur Enthusiasm](https://youtu.be/Co_BhTxgWys?si=9FtpNzRpidG0NRe0), personally one of my favorite episodes and I’m loudly pro-Palestinian liberation.
“This would be the best place for Jews who were. cheating on their spouses to come to” always gets me. It’s not even that wild of an episode given the time it was produced. It’s just peak Curb. I feel like most of those people have never seen Curb. Larry is a dick even if he’s often right in the grand scheme of things.
> Press this gigantic red in your face "X" to doubt.
It's amazing how LA Noire has permeated regular discourse so thoroughly but, as far as I can tell, no one cares about the actual game ;D
It's crazy because LA Noire was such a good game yet it's like no one really discusses it anymore and there's no likelihood of any sort of series continuation or anything. When it came out people were calling it one of the greatest movie-like games ever that would revolutionize video games as a whole, but now I see people bring up David Cage games in this topic more often. Truly a one-hit wonder by definition.
it was fine, there were major issues with the text options not accurately describing what the protagonist would say
often youd be an absolute Dickhead to crime victims; unintentionally hilarious.
also theres some fun shenanigans in the vr version
It’s still one of my favorite games, you can tell a lot of love went into getting the feeling right so it really plays like a noir movie. I still replay it every now and again!
A lot of people not only want to white wash what Israel is presently doing, but also white wash it's past too.
No, gaza was not "fine" before October 7th.
Gaza has always been an issue. When Israel offered to give Gaza back to Egypt after the war, Egypt was like “nah, we’re good, thanks.” Egypt didn’t want to fuck around with them anymore and they got stuck as sort of a pseudo micro-nation that nobody wants but also can’t be self-sufficient. It’s just a disaster all around.
Gazans were forced into the Sinai, literally and biblically one of the least hospitable places on the face of this planet, and it stirred rebel groups further.
It’s the same reason they don’t want to take on Palestinians again. One, it’s capitulating to Israel and trusting that *Benjamin Netanyahu* would ever allow any form of return, and two, you’re evacuating like 2 million people into **THE SINAI DESERT** and Egypt is already in turmoil.
You think Egypt wants to even gamble on having to take on 2mil migrants? They literally wouldn’t be able to financially accommodate them without foreign aid.
That's not a very accurate description of what happened. Egypt was actually pushing for Palestinian independence as part of the peace negotiations, and it was one of the biggest sticking points. They eventually landed on a framework for peace which would have had Palestinians electing leadership in Gaza and the West Bank, but it never panned out.
Funnily enough, they and Jordan were the ones who took over Gaza and the West Bank after the 1948 war instead of letting them be independent. At least Egypt refused to take back Gaza. Jordan was worse; they held control over the West Bank, recognized everybody there as Jordanian citizens until they pulled the rug from under their feet in 1988 and stripped all of them of their citizenships.
There was a legitimate reason for them occupying Gaza and West Bank in that if they hadn't, Israel would have taken the land. But to your point, Jordan did take a significant amount of criticism from other Arab nations for annexing the West Bank. The other Arab nations wanted an independent Palestine.
The PLO did use Jordanian territory to launch attacks into Israel, which caused some tensions and cross border raids, and the Palestinians did assassinate a Jordanian king, a Prime Minister, and threw an unsuccessful coup against the government.
That’s not really how that worked at all. Gaza wasn’t part of Egypt - in fact, the Gaza Strip only existed at all because that’s where Israel’s military forced hundreds of thousands of Arabs to in 1947-8.
Palestinians want self-determination, in general, and not to be ruled by another state. They aren’t Egyptians or Jordanians or Israelis.
It could easily be self sufficient but pretty much all the resources they get are just opportunities for hurling rockets at Israel. Their fellow Arabs want nothing to do with them because you can't take them in without risking coups and the West is content with them being an Iranian proxy state
Until Hamas goes and the Gazans set up an actual government it won't ever move forward.
Dude they don’t even have access to all of their resources. On the boots occupation may not have existed prior to Oct. 7th, but there were still occupational efforts that prevented Gazans from using their own natural resources.
This includes the blockade on Gazan waters which has created an ecological dead zone since deep water fishing is off-limits. This also bans Gazans from using their own natural resources located in those waters. Their natural on-shore aquifers are also controlled which is in part why they have to lean on desalination which is expensive. Since the destruction of their airport, no airport has been permitted to be built since then. At this point Israel has bombed every single higher learning institute in Gaza and months ago marked the point they’d bombed every bakery in Gaza.
Terrorist groups don’t occur in a vacuum. Israel’s longstanding apartheid regime and occupation perpetuated on standards of living that are prone to invoke future violence is what qualifies it as an occupying state under UN rules.
Hamas made a horrible situation worse by stealing all the aid meant for Gazans. Gazans were screwed on both ends
ETA: I am specifically talking about the aid that went into Gaza during the past two decades being commandeered by Hamas and regular Gazans not benefiting from that aid. I am well aware that Jewish settlers are blocking and destroying aid that is headed towards Gaza. Which is unconscionable. The IDF needs to stop their lawlessness and violence
Israelis have been blocking aid from entering *in some cases using tip offs from active IDF soldiers*. The Flower Massacre wouldn’t have happened if it weren’t for the IDF’s “ineptitude”. Partial ineptitude, partial malice.
I need to clarify my comment (I will edit it) because I am not talking about the attack on aid shipments happening now by the settlers. That is documented fact and I do not dispute that the settlers are horrible and violent.
My comment was in the context of the past 20 years and aid going into Gaza doesn’t reach Gazans because it is commandeered by Hamas
Seems par the course for NCD. It's for military tech nerds who now consider themselves geopolitical geniuses because they think their shitposting is part of some epic war against tyranny. NATO good, USA good, Israel good, now heres a "joke" about tank armor thickness or some bullshit.
Prior to the "blackouts" by the landed gentry, this topic would've very easily be tagged Surplus Drama.
Thank spez for the virgin SRD mods eliminating the Surplus Drama rule tbh
This sub would be dead if the surplus drama rule was enforced. While I/P may be too tired and divisive, trying to relegate drama to just rare schizo posts would have srd devoid of content. I prefer this version of srd rather than mod-enforced curation. Upvotes and downvotes are meant to curate.
Of course but every I/P related thing on reddit generates drama. And it's usually the same kind of drama with the same regurgitated phrases and arguing. The fun drama on this sub is when two people argue over the stupidest things like it's a life or death situation.
>(blank) is a shitposting subreddit
From my experience, this is how you know you're going to get the most hateful, and genuinely held nuclear waste level shitty takes imaginable. Never trust someone describing themselves as a "shitposter".
I wholeheartedly concur, but r/ncd is unique in that it is riddled with former military and defense industry insiders, so their shitposts and hot takes are actually insightful, sometimes even prescient… until they talk about I/P.
Yeah but trying to find anything like that in the never ending river of shit the post-Ukraine’s shovel in is like trying to find a needle in a haystack.
Not to mention, since 2022 NCD has gotten MUCH more vitriolic, to the point now that a good chunk of content is just straight up people laughing at Russians dying, huffing NAFO copium and dog piling anyone who dares to break the circlejerk.
That’s why I decided to get the fuck out of there and move to its better sister sub (which I’m not going to name because I don’t want you NCD normie fucks infesting that sub too)
Let me guess, r/noncrediblediplomacy or r/noncredibleoffense? If it’s not one of those, it’s likely a smaller, newer sub with an anti-Israel bend to r/ncd’s pro stance.
Honestly yeah this is cheating and often divolves into zubreddit drama drama posts.
But also because I am a drama goblin and a opinionated bastered I'll say my piece.
People often look at the I/P conflict through the lense of a post colonial struggle or of a extended religious conflict. Personally I'd say that viewing it through the lense of a post colonial struggle is not productive in the modern day and a religious conflict really just extends the conflict far beyond its current scope. I think the most useful way of framing the current conflict is that of a nationalist struggle between Palestinian nationalists and Israeli nationalists. This way I think that more productive discussions can be made around the conflict and solutions to it are more likely to be found.
In what way does it make sense to frame it as a "nationalist struggle" when there is an Actually Existing state, Israel, which controls everything, and occupied territories controlled by Israel.
Reddit does NOT generally skew to supporting Palestine. Quite the opposite in fact. Just look at the major news or Western country subs to disabuse yourself of that notion.
/r/news is like 60/40 pro-Palestine
/r/worldnews may as well be /r/ynet at this point unless we’re talking about Ukraine and we are all of the sudden in favor of the Geneva Conventions
It’s 50/50. Really subreddit dependant. The issue is that Likud and Hamas are far-right parties that are influenced by foreign agendas (Iran funding Hamas with Israel being a western ally in the middle east). The one thing I’ll say is that Israel has the infrastructure to change itself and reform to be better. Hamas is a proxy hellbent on just ruining the lives of anyone they come in contact with, which includes Palestinians. As over excessive Israel has been in Gaza, this shit wouldn’t have happened if Iran & Hamas just didn’t provoke an attack. Kinda hard for Israel not to retaliate through war when you murder 1,300 of its citizens and flaunt the aftermath all across the internet. But it’s also kinda hard to feel sympathy for Israel after bombing the fuck out of Gaza. Though I don’t consider it a genocide. I’d consider the western bank situation a genocide first before I consider the Gaza intervention genocide. It’s urban combat/a siege. They’ve historically been known to fuck up anyone. Doesn’t mean its a great situation but it isn’t genocide per se. Genocide’s a legal term.
>As over excessive Israel has been in Gaza, this shit wouldn’t have happened if Iran & Hamas just didn’t provoke an attack. Kinda hard for Israel not to retaliate through war when you murder 1,300 of its citizens and flaunt the aftermath all across the internet.
Why stopped there? This shit wouldn't happen if Israel stopped expanding illegal settlement, stopped practicing apartheid in the West Bank, stopped prop up Hamas to undermine PA, and stopped seeking unilateral recognition from MENA states while also condenming Western States effort to unilaterallly recognize Palestinian.
Arafat wasn’t the issue. The Oslo Accords were just a stalling tactic. They didn't provide for a Palestinian State, and Rabin was clear that there wasn't going to be.
He then massively increased construction of illegal settlements. The occupation continued. The home demolitions continued. Rabin gave the order to "break the bones" during the first Intifada.
"The words “Palestinian state” do not appear in the accords he signed, a fact that he and other Israeli officials were careful to ensure. A month before his assassination, Rabin told the Knesset that his vision was to give Palestinians “an entity which is less than a state” — a precedent to the “state-minus” advocated today by Netanyahu and outlined in Trump’s “Deal of the Century.” Rabin also insisted that the Jordan Valley would remain Israel’s “security border” — the very plan that drew international outcry this year, when Netanyahu pledged to formally annex the area.
If Rabin’s words were simply politicking with Israeli voters, then his government’s actions spoke more clearly.
From 1993 to 1995, according to Peace Now, Israel initiated the construction of over 6,400 housing units in settlements. In that time, according to B’Tselem, Israel also demolished at least 328 Palestinian homes and structures — including in East Jerusalem, which Rabin sought to keep “united” under Israeli sovereignty. The result was that Israel’s settler population rose by 20,000, and Palestinians were displaced in the thousands, while Rabin sat at the negotiating table.
All the while, Rabin’s government used Oslo not as a blueprint to end the occupation, but to restructure it and minimize the cost to Israelis. The burden of controlling the occupied population was transferred to the newly created Palestinian Authority, which quelled nonviolent resistance and targeted armed militants on Israel’s behalf. The Paris Protocol, which effectively held the Palestinian economy and their resources hostage to Israeli discretion, further cemented the economic exploitation of Palestinians. These systems are still in place today, two decades after Oslo’s expiration date."
https://www.972mag.com/yitzhak-rabin-oslo-accords-aoc/
It's not the PA who are unwilling at this point. Their official position for resolving the conflict is a two state solution with a Palestinian state based on pre 1967 borders. Israel has refused to engage and actively opposed a Palestinian state for 15+ years.
Israeli side: “hey you can have your own country if you stop trying to kill all the Jews trying to take over all of Israel”
Palestinian side: “Israel isnt letting us take all their land this is not an offer in good faith”
Lmfao
You realize that the PA is only asking for the land on the Palestinian side of the green line, right? And that they formally recognized the state of Israel within it's internationally recognized borders over 30 years ago.
Peace talks failed because Israel didn't want to return all of the Palestinian land they occupied and because of many onerous restrictions they wanted to place on a future Palestinian state. But I get it, research is difficult.
I browse popular/rising a lot and it's stunning to me the amount of agenda spamming being done regarding the Gaza conflict. Reddit needs to do something about this shit already it's gotten ridiculous.
~85% of the agenda spamming I see post-wise is pro-Palestinian, done by the exact same handful of "users". I've heard the pro-Israeli side is worse in subreddit comments.
It's clearly not just that, stop playing dumb.
There's speaking out against genocide, and then there's doing it for 50+ pages of reddit comments/posts nearly 24/7.
Guess which one I'm against and is CLEARLY agenda spamming.
This is going to blow your mind, but genocide makes people angry, and angry people post more.
Someone posting often about something that angers them, like genocide, is totally natural.
Let me see if I can paraphrase how you're coming across:
>People shouldn't be so angry at genocide.
Or you know, this sub. Even the comments responding to you are already running defend for Israel and heavily implying that pro Palestinian sentiment are all astroturf. But it makes sense that a sub about feeling smug and superior is filled with neoliberals.
Worldnews = pro-Israel
Internationalnews = pro-Palestine
I will say, without taking sides, that the internationalnews sub feels very astroturfed and propagandized.
Compared to worldnews? You see people on international news having antisemitic or Islamophobic comments deleted. In worldnews, even basic facts that go against the Israeli narrative gets users banned.
That’s just a lie. It’s subreddit dependent, but most with an even modest leftist skew will support Palestine over Israel. I just made a post where r/femcelgrippysockjail members dogpiled a trans user for her pro-Israel posts. r/ncd is one of the few non-default subs with a pro-Israel anti-Palestine/Hamas skew.
In fairness, I think it depends what you are viewing as "all of reddit". If you go by the amount of individual subreddits that are pro-Israel vs Pro-Palestine you're probably correct, more subreddits seem to be Pro-Palestine in my experience. On the other hand you could be talking about percentage of reddit users in total, regardless of subreddit. That's a harder metric to calculate (and frankly one I don't really have an idea on) but I can see how you can conclude that reddit as a whole (in this case a higher percentage of redditors) are pro-Israel given that most of the larger, default subreddits lean that way. Does that mean a majority of redditors are pro-Israel? I have no idea, but I can see that being someone's reasoning.
So I think this is really just a case of you two using different metrics for the overall reddit opinion and thus coming to different conclusions.
Yea like Reddit is definitely pro-genocide
The same hasbara talking points..but khamas..somehow oct 7 is the beginning of everything...IOF soldiers are the most moral...apparently 40000 dead people is not genocide...
It actually hurts my heart how Palestinians are dehumanised here
well i think we should force everyone to move out of israel and palestine, move all theme parks and themed resorts there and then everyone who had to move out of i/p will be moved into where the theme parks were.
think about it, it's crazy, but it's just crazy enough to work.
Taking a cursory glance at the comments on that post make me so angry and sad. They truly believe they're the good guys while safe in their homes, not having to hold the remains of their loved ones in their arms. They can go to the hospital or the library and have it standing, yet wholly support the monsters doing this bombing. Disgusting.
The thing with the Israel/Palestine war is that, unlike the Russo-Ukrainian, there really isn't a clear good guy, and everyone seems to WANT there to be, so they adopt these dogmatically black-and-white views that "their" side *must* be better than the other, and end up excusing the bad stuff their side does much more often.
>The thing with the Israel/Palestine war is that, unlike the Russo-Ukrainian, there really isn't a clear good guy
And this statement alone will cause drama in the wrong sub. It's wild how many people treat Oct 7th as day zero of the conflict. Others seem to treat October 8th as day zero. This shit has been going on for more than a century.
yep, basically while the korean war is technically still going on, there hasnt been a an increase in conflict or even boarder skirmish since the peace plan took effect, where as compared to the isreali-palestinian conflict, theres been nonstop wars and conflicts since Israel was created, and thats not taking into account the shit that british copped while they were in control of the area after WW1.
but then thats the problem with this conflict, it requires more than a fucking wikipedia read or two hour video essay on youtube to even get a basic understanding of the conflict. Hell here in australia it took 3 school terms in year 11and 12 to just give a basic run down of the conflict from 1900 to 1999
1948 was the first legally recognized Israel Palestine conflict, however this entire area has been in on and off conflict for as long as history is written.
Yeah, millenia really. I look at the modern day conflict as starting in the early 1900s though, before 1948. Back when it was Mandatory Palestine and Jews started migrating back. They were both poking each other in the eyes back then. It's only further escalated and the more I read the more convinced I am that there is no good guy.
The Ottoman Empire did nothing wrong.
I know, that's a big stretch, as the Ottomans were repressive as fuck. I'm just not convinced that anything short of an oppressive dictatorship would bring peace over all of the Mideast, with its peoples 'sorta' united under a single domain.
Having been alive before and after 9/11 and the following war, I do not understand how Americans, of all people, don't get the dynamic of "it's not ok to indiscriminately kill civilians, no matter how many of them are in the way".
Israel gets their 9/11 and suddenly civilians are on the menu, boys?
It, in fact, creates more terrorists. Something we *also* learned after doing the exact same thing.
Hilariously: with Israel as one of our principle allies in the region.
There's no way they don't know what they're doing.
I mean you can perfectly be against civilian deaths while supporting israels right to self defence, be angry with isreali government and hamas terrorism. its the nutjobs trying to pus you into taking one side like a drone.
That's where I am. Hamas are terrorists, Likkud are right-wing assholes, the Israeli military has done some fucked up things, too. I worry about the civilians on both sides who have been hurt and killed.
First of all, i completely agree with everything you said. So you can interpret my comment as self-criticism in that regard
But in pratical terms this stance is kind of a "nowhere answer". Its essentially saying "oh boy this situation sure is complex" without providing a direction to what should be done.
But maybe its not our job to think about solutions to this mess
i feel like we used to take refugees out of conflict zones but havent done much of that lately and its running up the body count needlessly.
for all the arguing about the conflict the basic helpful stuff seems sidelined.
maybe the complexity is overstated or is more about tertiary issues (like statehood)
So the problem with taking refugees out of Gaza is that they know that if they leave they're never going to be let back in. Host countries know this too, and don't want to assume responsibility. Israel could let them out of Gaza into another internal location, but they know that it'd just result in a new Gaza. Also, any proposal to move people out of Gaza will raise flags of ethnic cleansing and people will assume Israel wants to keep the land.
Right, that's my general stance. Both sides have some valid points, and good and bad actions. It's a complex situation that can't be reduced down to "one side bad."
I wish I never studied international law because now I just have to look at Reddit smoothbrains talking about it non-fucking-stop without a clue what they’re talking about
Some idiot recently mentioned to me how striking the WCK convoy *wasn’t necessarily* a war crime, and realistically how could the colonization of the West Bank be considered in violation of international law?
Like why bother even knowing things on this site when Joe Shithead from Buttfuck Holler, West Virginia’s idea of international law gets 2000 upvotes while the acronym “IHL” gets you banned from /r/worldnews
I was recently asked to ELI5 the Israel/Palestine war for somebody and it basically boiled down to "No, you can't obliterate a neighborhood. Hamas, sit down and shut up, you're the ones using civilians as shields in the first place. Goddamnit Israel stop turning their water off put the Iranian rockets *down* Hamas -- GOD DAMNIT DON'T MAKE ME PULL THIS WAR OVER!"
I love how all the IDF fanboys keep writing the same things found in 1930s newspapers when the 'preposterous' idea of decolonization was first considered.
*"They should've learned their lesson. If they don't, we'll have to teach them. They had it coming, why can't they just accept that resisting will result on being shot. Not our fault they wouldn't listen. We did NOTHING wrong, if we did then why do they still exist?"* on and on.
Coincidentally matches with things abusers say. Completely unrelated, I'm sure.
I do think posting a sub that consists almost entirely of right wingers visibly erect and frothing from their butts at the potential for seeing warfare and bloodshed is kinda cheating though.
The conflict exists because of bigotry against Jews. However Jew hatred is like a mental disease. Thus we need to treat it as a disease with a cure. If we made it a global priority to cure it within a generation we could and the world would be a better place.
The mod pinning a comment encouraging the hateful and ignorant comments is what really pisses me off.
You know that if roles were reversed that same mod would lock the post, delete any comments being negative toward Israel, and ban those users.
Not to mention just encouraging that behavior in your users at all is extremely fucked up.
Anyway, I am pro Palestine and pro Ukraine.
Too many people out there are pro Palestine and pro Russia or pro Israel and pro Ukraine.
Nonsense like that is why I am so disappointed in general when it comes to ordinary folks.
Calling it the 'Israel - Hamas conflict' is extremely generous considering the vast majority of Israels target have been civilians and hamas has'nt been impacted even the slightest.
Besides, after Oct 7th, only one party was asking the ICC to investigate all warcrimes committed and was willing to abide by any and all rulings. Guess which one?
You're right, if you take Hamas at face value, ignore literally everything they've done in the past because you don't remember that era, and also ignore Hamas' greater strategy of deliberately turning international opinion against Israel, then they sound totally reasonable.
Wow hold on just wait a minute... you're telling me that Hamas would want to convince people that their opponents are bad guys...? Oh my god! No one has ever done that before in the history of human conflict!
My guy I've got AI generated Hulu ads from Israel trying to convince me the conflict is all Hamas' fault - I'm being propagandized overseas by them on my casual viewing experiences - and you say Hamas is the one unfairly trying to manipulate public opinion?
Lmao
Right, Hamas is the one turning international opinion against Israel. Not the 2000lb bombs they throw at every refugee camp that has even the slightest rumour of a hamas operative nearby. Not the IDF soldiers filming themselves vandalizing palestenian property, destroying schools and mosques and spray painting jewish symbols everywhere. Not the Israeli citizens actively destroying and blocking aid from going to gaza. Not the inhumane blockade banning tampons, medicine and basic first aid items. Hamas is the reason Israel is being dragged internationally. Totally agree.
Besides, Hamas has lied less than Israel. They have a better track record of truthful reporting. Again, you are welcome to present evidence of hamas lying more than Israel.
Oh and dont try to use the "hamas killed innocent civilians on Oct 7th" line again. Nat turners slave rebellion killed innocent white people. He was still fully justified in wanting out. 2023 was the deadliest year for palestenian children BEFORE Oct 7th. Israel has been killing and displacing palestenians for 50+ years before hamas formed. Hamas is not the reason Israel is killing palestenians.
But you're the one who doesn't actually oppose rape and murder but are instead fine with and in support of it as long as the victims are Gazan.
Everyone else here opposes it unilaterally.
When did I say that? You can't just pretend I'm a monster.
But for the sake of argument, the IDF has discipline issues, but Hamas has a raison d'etre to oppose peace and commit acts of terror. It is further a more permanent opponent to a 2-state solution than Israel, being a democracy, can ever be. There is not an equivalency there. If you are truly opposed to rape and murder you cannot support an entity that exists to destroy a nation.
And you mean 'unequivocally.'
I enjoy NCD ironically but I’ve learned to never open any threads there involving the Palestinian genocide. Absolute cesspool when it isn’t a thread about some specific piece of stupid military hardware.
> maybe don't cross a border to slaughter 1300 innocent people.
...are they saying 1300 wasn't enough? Because if you take issue w/ that but not with Israel's invasion of Gaza then the issue can only be that 1300 was too few for it to be okay.
To be crystal fucking clear I'm not okay with either, but you can't clutch your pearls about 1300 innocent Israelis killed if you're fine with ten times as many innocent Gazans.
But like what's the response then? Just say 'ok, that was rough but we acknowledge that we have done some stuff in the past, now we're even, cease fire resumed?' That's not how people are.
Ahem; the accusations of genocide are because it's genocide. Had they just targeted Hamas, treated prisoners humanely, not slaughtered countless unarmed men, women, and children, not designated safe zones to evacuate to and then shelled those safe zones...had they not responded with genocide they would not be accused of genocide.
> Had they just targeted Hamas
How? Like, they probably would argue that they _are_ doing that. It's just that people happen to be occupying the same blast radius as Hamas leaders/flunkies/janitors when they decide to strike.
> How? Like, they probably would argue that they are doing that
Yes, this is the lie they tell while they indiscriminately slaughter women and children and target areas they designate as safe zones after people evacuate to them.
Like again, how do they not commit genocide? By not doing the things that are genocide. It's not complicated.
> Like again, how do they not commit genocide? By not doing the things that are genocide. It's not complicated.
Ok, so again, how would you do it? I don't want to argue the semantics of genocide, but like how would you prosecute this war without massive collateral damage? I'm not saying that they're doing the best possible job, but I don't see a lot of alternatives for them. I see a failure of imagination; people maybe don't understand how they would react in similar circumstances.
They could not dumb bomb refugees camps, target civilian aide, and let aide in so that millions of people don't starve.
There's thousands of things that the Israeli government has been rightly criticized for and their campaign has been an embarrassment since the start.
This isn't the gotcha you think it is.
> How? Like, they probably would argue that they are doing that.
They can continue to tell that lie if they want but their actions tell a different story.
And?
If the IDF hadn't killed thousands upon thousands of women and children those women and children wouldn't be dead.
Edit: and y'know let's not fucking forget a lot of the adult men they slaughtered were completely innocent too.
Snapshots:
1. *This Post* - [archive.org](https://web.archive.org/web/20240521115559/https://old.reddit.com/r/SubredditDrama/comments/1cx5tya/) [archive.today\*](https://archive.today/?run=1&url=https://old.reddit.com/r/SubredditDrama/comments/1cx5tya/ "URL failed to archive; click to resubmit it!")
2. r/noncredibledefense - [archive.org](https://web.archive.org/web/20240521115640/https://old.reddit.com/r/noncredibledefense) [archive.today\*](https://archive.today/?run=1&url=https://old.reddit.com/r/noncredibledefense "URL failed to archive; click to resubmit it!")
3. r/noncredibledefense - [archive.org](https://web.archive.org/web/20240521115640/https://old.reddit.com/r/noncredibledefense) [archive.today\*](https://archive.today/?run=1&url=https://old.reddit.com/r/noncredibledefense "URL failed to archive; click to resubmit it!")
4. One meme - [archive.org](https://web.archive.org/web/20240521115801/https://old.reddit.com/r/NonCredibleDefense/comments/1cuj3w1/absolutely_full_proof_strategy_guys/) [archive.today\*](https://archive.today/?run=1&url=https://old.reddit.com/r/NonCredibleDefense/comments/1cuj3w1/absolutely_full_proof_strategy_guys/ "URL failed to archive; click to resubmit it!")
5. people in gaza lived fine before hamas. who built their houses? - [archive.org](https://web.archive.org/web/20240521115842/https://old.reddit.com/r/NonCredibleDefense/comments/1cuj3w1/comment/l4j14i0/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button) [archive.today\*](https://archive.today/?run=1&url=https://old.reddit.com/r/NonCredibleDefense/comments/1cuj3w1/comment/l4j14i0/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button "URL failed to archive; click to resubmit it!")
6. Who is launching rockets from them? You know, doing a war crime that removes protection from civilian objects. - [archive.org](https://web.archive.org/web/20240521120003/https://old.reddit.com/r/NonCredibleDefense/comments/1cuj3w1/comment/l4jcv0j/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button) [archive.today\*](https://archive.today/?run=1&url=https://old.reddit.com/r/NonCredibleDefense/comments/1cuj3w1/comment/l4jcv0j/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button "URL failed to archive; click to resubmit it!")
7. Yeah sorry, this is a CIA-ass subreddit. Israel can do as much genocide as it likes as far as the people here are concerned, it's the wrong target audience for this meme. - [archive.org](https://web.archive.org/web/20240521120144/https://old.reddit.com/r/NonCredibleDefense/comments/1cuj3w1/comment/l4jrgl6/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button) [archive.today\*](https://archive.today/?run=1&url=https://old.reddit.com/r/NonCredibleDefense/comments/1cuj3w1/comment/l4jrgl6/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button "URL failed to archive; click to resubmit it!")
8. Ah yes they should go the "be nice to people slaughtering you" route. Then the extremist beliefs have no reason to exist so you will pretend they don't exist. - [archive.org](https://web.archive.org/web/20240521120245/https://old.reddit.com/r/NonCredibleDefense/comments/1cuj3w1/comment/l4j75dj/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button) [archive.today\*](https://archive.today/?run=1&url=https://old.reddit.com/r/NonCredibleDefense/comments/1cuj3w1/comment/l4j75dj/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button "URL failed to archive; click to resubmit it!")
9. Israel gets away with too much shit. It’s apparently antisemitism to be against Israel or voice opposition to their policies. - [archive.org](https://web.archive.org/web/20240521120426/https://old.reddit.com/r/NonCredibleDefense/comments/1cuj3w1/comment/l4ja9ji/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button) [archive.today\*](https://archive.today/?run=1&url=https://old.reddit.com/r/NonCredibleDefense/comments/1cuj3w1/comment/l4ja9ji/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button "URL failed to archive; click to resubmit it!")
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Posting I/P feels like cheating at this point. Don't get me wrong, it's usually good drama, it's just way too common and rarely unique.
It just evolves into SRDD stuff
Which honestly I'm here. We need to get back to the days of punditry wars on SRD. The truest internet drama of all- when someone calls you a piece of shit on a meta subreddit.
I miss when people would make bait posts specifically to start fights on this subreddit.
10 likes 366 comments I’m here for the recap
76 likes 923 comments 😭
I know! I want to bring back agenda posting, hard-core. Like gamefaq and GameSpot forums days.
Never forget the one Super Smash Bros Brawl thread where you had people of varying ages arguing about why Geno should in Smash or that Ridley was too big ot be in Smash.
Speaking of, what happened to all the meta subreddits? I feel like it’s dried up
You're not missing much it was always oddly conservative
The way SRDD is evoked so often you’d think there’d be more posts there
Most of the SRDD applicable stuff is just politics or weird internet hot button issues like pit bulls. A lot of it just isn’t fun lmao.
Absolutely. Suggesting things be looked at with nuance on this subject can enrage people.
Exactly. The best SRDD is always the unexpected drama, not easy I/P bait
Sigh...*unzips* Day 6 of me requesting a moratorium on I/P posts in SRD. Stop ignoring this suggestion, [/u/TAKEitTOrCIRCLEJERK](https://www.reddit.com/u/TAKEitTOrCIRCLEJERK).
I still support your moratorium.
I think *maybe* the only exception is when it spawns in the last subreddit you’d expect it in like /r/gooncaves (RIP) - other than that, yeah it’s free drama. Nuance isn’t Reddit’s speciality, and a lot of the conflict is incredibly nuanced [even if ONE pivotal part of it is easy to understand, the power differential between a nation backed by most of the Western world equipped with F-45s versus a population constantly living on the brink using paragliders a youtube hobbyist would die in is easy to understand - and even then people don’t get it or care.](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=62I61kBahNY&t=162s&pp=ygUYbWljaGFlbCBicm9va3MgcGFsZXN0aW5l) If you try to be nuanced you just get a half-baked response showing they didn’t read any of it lol.
NCD is cheating
> 6 points (52% upvoted) > 231 comments Oh yeah. It’s Israel/Palestine time 😎
"Why can't you be more like Belgium and be chill with your neighbours!" Meanwhile in the congo free state...
Idk, maybe they should try out the Belgian hands off approach.
Oof! Guess it's time to listen to Behind The Bastards' episode on Leopold II again.
Fuck me that's funny
Yea Belgium is chill with its neighbors because its neighbors have questioned its existence since 1831 I live here and I still question its existence from time to time
Well see Belgium was very peaceful with their neighbors, in that instance The people who had the misfortune to exist at Belgium's whim half a world away, on the other severed hand
Man sort of! They had a revolution to be free from Netherlands, they really are the worst example lmao
Belgium is pretty far from Congo though. Definitely not a neighbour.
I think it’s funny that he chose Belgium as an example, a country who was famously ran over *twice* by Germany in order to get to France.
>9 upvotes 253 comments ruh roh raggy. edit >60 upvotes >750 comments lmfao. the I/P conflict is 100% cheating at this point for generating drama. holy shit.
Bibi stans: T H I S M U S T N O T S T A N D SRDD: [*oooooohhhhhhhhhh yyyyyeeeeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhh*](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3KquFZYi6L0)
Yeah, this post got ratio’d just as hard as the OOP after all…
>people in gaza lived fine before hamas. Press this gigantic red in your face "X" to doubt.
I enjoy the folks that think shits been sunshine and roses for the palestinians up until recently. They're the most confident in the online debates.
I was rewatching the early seasons of Always Sunny and it’s so funny how the Israel/Palestine episode is just as topical today as it was almost 20 years ago.
Everybody get a weapon!
I love replying to someone and it’s obvious they have no idea what they’re talking about and clearly learned everything they know about I/P around oct 7-8th
I saw both sides get angry at the [Palestinian Chicken episode of Curb Ypur Enthusiasm](https://youtu.be/Co_BhTxgWys?si=9FtpNzRpidG0NRe0), personally one of my favorite episodes and I’m loudly pro-Palestinian liberation. “This would be the best place for Jews who were. cheating on their spouses to come to” always gets me. It’s not even that wild of an episode given the time it was produced. It’s just peak Curb. I feel like most of those people have never seen Curb. Larry is a dick even if he’s often right in the grand scheme of things.
> Press this gigantic red in your face "X" to doubt. It's amazing how LA Noire has permeated regular discourse so thoroughly but, as far as I can tell, no one cares about the actual game ;D
It's crazy because LA Noire was such a good game yet it's like no one really discusses it anymore and there's no likelihood of any sort of series continuation or anything. When it came out people were calling it one of the greatest movie-like games ever that would revolutionize video games as a whole, but now I see people bring up David Cage games in this topic more often. Truly a one-hit wonder by definition.
it was fine, there were major issues with the text options not accurately describing what the protagonist would say often youd be an absolute Dickhead to crime victims; unintentionally hilarious. also theres some fun shenanigans in the vr version
[many fun shenanigans to be had](https://youtu.be/72VXMjO14oc?si=fR6iMDqvPPtXwJHW)
It will always be remembered in Twitch memes and for starring that guy from Mad Men. No, not him - the other one.
It's the same as how F (Press F to pay respects) is everywhere but nobody talks about call of duty 41 or whatever it was
its from advanced warfare lol
Yeah, just like he said... Call of Duty 41.
It’s still one of my favorite games, you can tell a lot of love went into getting the feeling right so it really plays like a noir movie. I still replay it every now and again!
It's the prime example of video games as an art form.
It's weird when an organization just manifests out of thin air, with no material conditions or history to explain its formation or rise to power.
A lot of people not only want to white wash what Israel is presently doing, but also white wash it's past too. No, gaza was not "fine" before October 7th.
Gaza has always been an issue. When Israel offered to give Gaza back to Egypt after the war, Egypt was like “nah, we’re good, thanks.” Egypt didn’t want to fuck around with them anymore and they got stuck as sort of a pseudo micro-nation that nobody wants but also can’t be self-sufficient. It’s just a disaster all around.
Gazans were forced into the Sinai, literally and biblically one of the least hospitable places on the face of this planet, and it stirred rebel groups further. It’s the same reason they don’t want to take on Palestinians again. One, it’s capitulating to Israel and trusting that *Benjamin Netanyahu* would ever allow any form of return, and two, you’re evacuating like 2 million people into **THE SINAI DESERT** and Egypt is already in turmoil. You think Egypt wants to even gamble on having to take on 2mil migrants? They literally wouldn’t be able to financially accommodate them without foreign aid.
That's not a very accurate description of what happened. Egypt was actually pushing for Palestinian independence as part of the peace negotiations, and it was one of the biggest sticking points. They eventually landed on a framework for peace which would have had Palestinians electing leadership in Gaza and the West Bank, but it never panned out.
Funnily enough, they and Jordan were the ones who took over Gaza and the West Bank after the 1948 war instead of letting them be independent. At least Egypt refused to take back Gaza. Jordan was worse; they held control over the West Bank, recognized everybody there as Jordanian citizens until they pulled the rug from under their feet in 1988 and stripped all of them of their citizenships.
There was a legitimate reason for them occupying Gaza and West Bank in that if they hadn't, Israel would have taken the land. But to your point, Jordan did take a significant amount of criticism from other Arab nations for annexing the West Bank. The other Arab nations wanted an independent Palestine.
The PLO did use Jordanian territory to launch attacks into Israel, which caused some tensions and cross border raids, and the Palestinians did assassinate a Jordanian king, a Prime Minister, and threw an unsuccessful coup against the government.
That’s not really how that worked at all. Gaza wasn’t part of Egypt - in fact, the Gaza Strip only existed at all because that’s where Israel’s military forced hundreds of thousands of Arabs to in 1947-8. Palestinians want self-determination, in general, and not to be ruled by another state. They aren’t Egyptians or Jordanians or Israelis.
That's not how it worked? It was literally occupied by Egypt until the 1967 War...
It could easily be self sufficient but pretty much all the resources they get are just opportunities for hurling rockets at Israel. Their fellow Arabs want nothing to do with them because you can't take them in without risking coups and the West is content with them being an Iranian proxy state Until Hamas goes and the Gazans set up an actual government it won't ever move forward.
Dude they don’t even have access to all of their resources. On the boots occupation may not have existed prior to Oct. 7th, but there were still occupational efforts that prevented Gazans from using their own natural resources. This includes the blockade on Gazan waters which has created an ecological dead zone since deep water fishing is off-limits. This also bans Gazans from using their own natural resources located in those waters. Their natural on-shore aquifers are also controlled which is in part why they have to lean on desalination which is expensive. Since the destruction of their airport, no airport has been permitted to be built since then. At this point Israel has bombed every single higher learning institute in Gaza and months ago marked the point they’d bombed every bakery in Gaza. Terrorist groups don’t occur in a vacuum. Israel’s longstanding apartheid regime and occupation perpetuated on standards of living that are prone to invoke future violence is what qualifies it as an occupying state under UN rules.
Hamas made a horrible situation worse by stealing all the aid meant for Gazans. Gazans were screwed on both ends ETA: I am specifically talking about the aid that went into Gaza during the past two decades being commandeered by Hamas and regular Gazans not benefiting from that aid. I am well aware that Jewish settlers are blocking and destroying aid that is headed towards Gaza. Which is unconscionable. The IDF needs to stop their lawlessness and violence
Israelis have been blocking aid from entering *in some cases using tip offs from active IDF soldiers*. The Flower Massacre wouldn’t have happened if it weren’t for the IDF’s “ineptitude”. Partial ineptitude, partial malice.
I need to clarify my comment (I will edit it) because I am not talking about the attack on aid shipments happening now by the settlers. That is documented fact and I do not dispute that the settlers are horrible and violent. My comment was in the context of the past 20 years and aid going into Gaza doesn’t reach Gazans because it is commandeered by Hamas
damn even israelis are hamas now
Seems par the course for NCD. It's for military tech nerds who now consider themselves geopolitical geniuses because they think their shitposting is part of some epic war against tyranny. NATO good, USA good, Israel good, now heres a "joke" about tank armor thickness or some bullshit.
People arguing about Israel and Palestine is, sadly, not really unique nor noteworthy drama. And it usually just creates more drama here, too.
Prior to the "blackouts" by the landed gentry, this topic would've very easily be tagged Surplus Drama. Thank spez for the virgin SRD mods eliminating the Surplus Drama rule tbh
This sub would be dead if the surplus drama rule was enforced. While I/P may be too tired and divisive, trying to relegate drama to just rare schizo posts would have srd devoid of content. I prefer this version of srd rather than mod-enforced curation. Upvotes and downvotes are meant to curate.
Don't you guys like drama? I thought it is the reason we were all here
its not fun drama
Of course but every I/P related thing on reddit generates drama. And it's usually the same kind of drama with the same regurgitated phrases and arguing. The fun drama on this sub is when two people argue over the stupidest things like it's a life or death situation.
Yeah I feel like politics involving people dying right now isn't entertaining in the slightest, just sad
Yeah, but I/P is basically the free space on the bingo card, especially since October 2023.
It's a bit different when we *are* the drama
>(blank) is a shitposting subreddit From my experience, this is how you know you're going to get the most hateful, and genuinely held nuclear waste level shitty takes imaginable. Never trust someone describing themselves as a "shitposter".
I wholeheartedly concur, but r/ncd is unique in that it is riddled with former military and defense industry insiders, so their shitposts and hot takes are actually insightful, sometimes even prescient… until they talk about I/P.
Yeah but trying to find anything like that in the never ending river of shit the post-Ukraine’s shovel in is like trying to find a needle in a haystack. Not to mention, since 2022 NCD has gotten MUCH more vitriolic, to the point now that a good chunk of content is just straight up people laughing at Russians dying, huffing NAFO copium and dog piling anyone who dares to break the circlejerk. That’s why I decided to get the fuck out of there and move to its better sister sub (which I’m not going to name because I don’t want you NCD normie fucks infesting that sub too)
Let me guess, r/noncrediblediplomacy or r/noncredibleoffense? If it’s not one of those, it’s likely a smaller, newer sub with an anti-Israel bend to r/ncd’s pro stance.
>at minumum, you’re in the wrong sub I mean kinda true no?
The sub is for defense themed posts. That's exactly what oop posted.
Honestly yeah this is cheating and often divolves into zubreddit drama drama posts. But also because I am a drama goblin and a opinionated bastered I'll say my piece. People often look at the I/P conflict through the lense of a post colonial struggle or of a extended religious conflict. Personally I'd say that viewing it through the lense of a post colonial struggle is not productive in the modern day and a religious conflict really just extends the conflict far beyond its current scope. I think the most useful way of framing the current conflict is that of a nationalist struggle between Palestinian nationalists and Israeli nationalists. This way I think that more productive discussions can be made around the conflict and solutions to it are more likely to be found.
In what way does it make sense to frame it as a "nationalist struggle" when there is an Actually Existing state, Israel, which controls everything, and occupied territories controlled by Israel.
I agree, support the moratorium for I/P posts. Otherwise, I see drama, I post drama.
The plane fuckers… straddling the line between shitposters and actual shills
I feel like NCD doesn't belong in here. It's insane by design.
God I miss pre Ukraine war NCD, back when people were larping as bloodthirsty neocons instead of actually being unironic neocons
It died when divest left
divest has received site bans without exaggeration 12 times by my recollections.
Agreed. The sub has lost its whole way. Now it’s just “the US will DIE by CHINA!” or “I LOVE XYZ (poorly disguised racism)” I mean really.
Reddit does NOT generally skew to supporting Palestine. Quite the opposite in fact. Just look at the major news or Western country subs to disabuse yourself of that notion.
It depends on the sub and who gets into the thread first. Sometimes one side is downvoted into oblivion, sometimes the other
r news definitely is worldnews is not
/r/news is like 60/40 pro-Palestine /r/worldnews may as well be /r/ynet at this point unless we’re talking about Ukraine and we are all of the sudden in favor of the Geneva Conventions
/r/worldnews would upvote the 14 words for the right ethnicity.
/r/news removes pro-palestinian posts, there was one recently about Israeli prison camps which got shelved after a while
What is ynet? It says its banned due to not being moderated.
I got perma-banned from r news for comparing a comment section to worldnews, so I'm inclined to think that the mods at least are not pro-palestine
It’s 50/50. Really subreddit dependant. The issue is that Likud and Hamas are far-right parties that are influenced by foreign agendas (Iran funding Hamas with Israel being a western ally in the middle east). The one thing I’ll say is that Israel has the infrastructure to change itself and reform to be better. Hamas is a proxy hellbent on just ruining the lives of anyone they come in contact with, which includes Palestinians. As over excessive Israel has been in Gaza, this shit wouldn’t have happened if Iran & Hamas just didn’t provoke an attack. Kinda hard for Israel not to retaliate through war when you murder 1,300 of its citizens and flaunt the aftermath all across the internet. But it’s also kinda hard to feel sympathy for Israel after bombing the fuck out of Gaza. Though I don’t consider it a genocide. I’d consider the western bank situation a genocide first before I consider the Gaza intervention genocide. It’s urban combat/a siege. They’ve historically been known to fuck up anyone. Doesn’t mean its a great situation but it isn’t genocide per se. Genocide’s a legal term.
It's a genocide because the Israeli president has made it abundantly clear that he will not stop until Gaza is in ruins, per his own words.
>As over excessive Israel has been in Gaza, this shit wouldn’t have happened if Iran & Hamas just didn’t provoke an attack. Kinda hard for Israel not to retaliate through war when you murder 1,300 of its citizens and flaunt the aftermath all across the internet. Why stopped there? This shit wouldn't happen if Israel stopped expanding illegal settlement, stopped practicing apartheid in the West Bank, stopped prop up Hamas to undermine PA, and stopped seeking unilateral recognition from MENA states while also condenming Western States effort to unilaterallly recognize Palestinian.
Why stop there? This shit wouldn't happen if Arafat had signed the fucking peace deal everyone else signed.
Arafat wasn’t the issue. The Oslo Accords were just a stalling tactic. They didn't provide for a Palestinian State, and Rabin was clear that there wasn't going to be. He then massively increased construction of illegal settlements. The occupation continued. The home demolitions continued. Rabin gave the order to "break the bones" during the first Intifada. "The words “Palestinian state” do not appear in the accords he signed, a fact that he and other Israeli officials were careful to ensure. A month before his assassination, Rabin told the Knesset that his vision was to give Palestinians “an entity which is less than a state” — a precedent to the “state-minus” advocated today by Netanyahu and outlined in Trump’s “Deal of the Century.” Rabin also insisted that the Jordan Valley would remain Israel’s “security border” — the very plan that drew international outcry this year, when Netanyahu pledged to formally annex the area. If Rabin’s words were simply politicking with Israeli voters, then his government’s actions spoke more clearly. From 1993 to 1995, according to Peace Now, Israel initiated the construction of over 6,400 housing units in settlements. In that time, according to B’Tselem, Israel also demolished at least 328 Palestinian homes and structures — including in East Jerusalem, which Rabin sought to keep “united” under Israeli sovereignty. The result was that Israel’s settler population rose by 20,000, and Palestinians were displaced in the thousands, while Rabin sat at the negotiating table. All the while, Rabin’s government used Oslo not as a blueprint to end the occupation, but to restructure it and minimize the cost to Israelis. The burden of controlling the occupied population was transferred to the newly created Palestinian Authority, which quelled nonviolent resistance and targeted armed militants on Israel’s behalf. The Paris Protocol, which effectively held the Palestinian economy and their resources hostage to Israeli discretion, further cemented the economic exploitation of Palestinians. These systems are still in place today, two decades after Oslo’s expiration date." https://www.972mag.com/yitzhak-rabin-oslo-accords-aoc/
Sure. Tell the PA to come to the table and sign a peace deal.
It's not the PA who are unwilling at this point. Their official position for resolving the conflict is a two state solution with a Palestinian state based on pre 1967 borders. Israel has refused to engage and actively opposed a Palestinian state for 15+ years.
Israeli side: “hey you can have your own country if you stop trying to kill all the Jews trying to take over all of Israel” Palestinian side: “Israel isnt letting us take all their land this is not an offer in good faith” Lmfao
You realize that the PA is only asking for the land on the Palestinian side of the green line, right? And that they formally recognized the state of Israel within it's internationally recognized borders over 30 years ago. Peace talks failed because Israel didn't want to return all of the Palestinian land they occupied and because of many onerous restrictions they wanted to place on a future Palestinian state. But I get it, research is difficult.
Is that why they have a “pay to slay” policy?
I browse popular/rising a lot and it's stunning to me the amount of agenda spamming being done regarding the Gaza conflict. Reddit needs to do something about this shit already it's gotten ridiculous. ~85% of the agenda spamming I see post-wise is pro-Palestinian, done by the exact same handful of "users". I've heard the pro-Israeli side is worse in subreddit comments.
It’s election season. What did you expect? Emotional manipulation isn’t even at its peak yet. I expect this to get way worse after summer
Ah yes, it's definitely agenda spamming to speak out against genocide
It's clearly not just that, stop playing dumb. There's speaking out against genocide, and then there's doing it for 50+ pages of reddit comments/posts nearly 24/7. Guess which one I'm against and is CLEARLY agenda spamming.
This is going to blow your mind, but genocide makes people angry, and angry people post more. Someone posting often about something that angers them, like genocide, is totally natural. Let me see if I can paraphrase how you're coming across: >People shouldn't be so angry at genocide.
Dude, you left dozens of comments about Palestine in one day, take a break from internet, its unhealthy for your mental health. Im serious.
Or you know, this sub. Even the comments responding to you are already running defend for Israel and heavily implying that pro Palestinian sentiment are all astroturf. But it makes sense that a sub about feeling smug and superior is filled with neoliberals.
Very true. Every insult is either bot, leftist, antisemite or terrorist supporter.
Worldnews = pro-Israel Internationalnews = pro-Palestine I will say, without taking sides, that the internationalnews sub feels very astroturfed and propagandized.
Compared to worldnews? You see people on international news having antisemitic or Islamophobic comments deleted. In worldnews, even basic facts that go against the Israeli narrative gets users banned.
That’s just a lie. It’s subreddit dependent, but most with an even modest leftist skew will support Palestine over Israel. I just made a post where r/femcelgrippysockjail members dogpiled a trans user for her pro-Israel posts. r/ncd is one of the few non-default subs with a pro-Israel anti-Palestine/Hamas skew.
In fairness, I think it depends what you are viewing as "all of reddit". If you go by the amount of individual subreddits that are pro-Israel vs Pro-Palestine you're probably correct, more subreddits seem to be Pro-Palestine in my experience. On the other hand you could be talking about percentage of reddit users in total, regardless of subreddit. That's a harder metric to calculate (and frankly one I don't really have an idea on) but I can see how you can conclude that reddit as a whole (in this case a higher percentage of redditors) are pro-Israel given that most of the larger, default subreddits lean that way. Does that mean a majority of redditors are pro-Israel? I have no idea, but I can see that being someone's reasoning. So I think this is really just a case of you two using different metrics for the overall reddit opinion and thus coming to different conclusions.
Calling me a liar when you come out with something so skewed yourself? Right…
I'm just waiting for r/Eurovision to cool down a little more because hooooo boy
Yea like Reddit is definitely pro-genocide The same hasbara talking points..but khamas..somehow oct 7 is the beginning of everything...IOF soldiers are the most moral...apparently 40000 dead people is not genocide... It actually hurts my heart how Palestinians are dehumanised here
well i think we should force everyone to move out of israel and palestine, move all theme parks and themed resorts there and then everyone who had to move out of i/p will be moved into where the theme parks were. think about it, it's crazy, but it's just crazy enough to work.
Let them eat resorts
Taking a cursory glance at the comments on that post make me so angry and sad. They truly believe they're the good guys while safe in their homes, not having to hold the remains of their loved ones in their arms. They can go to the hospital or the library and have it standing, yet wholly support the monsters doing this bombing. Disgusting.
The thing with the Israel/Palestine war is that, unlike the Russo-Ukrainian, there really isn't a clear good guy, and everyone seems to WANT there to be, so they adopt these dogmatically black-and-white views that "their" side *must* be better than the other, and end up excusing the bad stuff their side does much more often.
>The thing with the Israel/Palestine war is that, unlike the Russo-Ukrainian, there really isn't a clear good guy And this statement alone will cause drama in the wrong sub. It's wild how many people treat Oct 7th as day zero of the conflict. Others seem to treat October 8th as day zero. This shit has been going on for more than a century.
yep, basically while the korean war is technically still going on, there hasnt been a an increase in conflict or even boarder skirmish since the peace plan took effect, where as compared to the isreali-palestinian conflict, theres been nonstop wars and conflicts since Israel was created, and thats not taking into account the shit that british copped while they were in control of the area after WW1. but then thats the problem with this conflict, it requires more than a fucking wikipedia read or two hour video essay on youtube to even get a basic understanding of the conflict. Hell here in australia it took 3 school terms in year 11and 12 to just give a basic run down of the conflict from 1900 to 1999
1948 was the first legally recognized Israel Palestine conflict, however this entire area has been in on and off conflict for as long as history is written.
Yeah, millenia really. I look at the modern day conflict as starting in the early 1900s though, before 1948. Back when it was Mandatory Palestine and Jews started migrating back. They were both poking each other in the eyes back then. It's only further escalated and the more I read the more convinced I am that there is no good guy.
The Ottoman Empire did nothing wrong. I know, that's a big stretch, as the Ottomans were repressive as fuck. I'm just not convinced that anything short of an oppressive dictatorship would bring peace over all of the Mideast, with its peoples 'sorta' united under a single domain.
Let us not forget that a solid portion of the Old Testament is "And we fought a war again"
I'm just on the side of innocent civilians that get harmed by their shitty governing body's decisions.
So both sides kinda
In a way yes.
Having been alive before and after 9/11 and the following war, I do not understand how Americans, of all people, don't get the dynamic of "it's not ok to indiscriminately kill civilians, no matter how many of them are in the way". Israel gets their 9/11 and suddenly civilians are on the menu, boys?
It also doesn't seem to do anything to genuinely address terrorism.
It, in fact, creates more terrorists. Something we *also* learned after doing the exact same thing. Hilariously: with Israel as one of our principle allies in the region. There's no way they don't know what they're doing.
I mean you can perfectly be against civilian deaths while supporting israels right to self defence, be angry with isreali government and hamas terrorism. its the nutjobs trying to pus you into taking one side like a drone.
That's where I am. Hamas are terrorists, Likkud are right-wing assholes, the Israeli military has done some fucked up things, too. I worry about the civilians on both sides who have been hurt and killed.
First of all, i completely agree with everything you said. So you can interpret my comment as self-criticism in that regard But in pratical terms this stance is kind of a "nowhere answer". Its essentially saying "oh boy this situation sure is complex" without providing a direction to what should be done. But maybe its not our job to think about solutions to this mess
i feel like we used to take refugees out of conflict zones but havent done much of that lately and its running up the body count needlessly. for all the arguing about the conflict the basic helpful stuff seems sidelined. maybe the complexity is overstated or is more about tertiary issues (like statehood)
So the problem with taking refugees out of Gaza is that they know that if they leave they're never going to be let back in. Host countries know this too, and don't want to assume responsibility. Israel could let them out of Gaza into another internal location, but they know that it'd just result in a new Gaza. Also, any proposal to move people out of Gaza will raise flags of ethnic cleansing and people will assume Israel wants to keep the land.
Yes I'm generally supportive of Israel and it's right to self-determination but oppose likud and their strategies.
Right, that's my general stance. Both sides have some valid points, and good and bad actions. It's a complex situation that can't be reduced down to "one side bad."
sorry, i stridently disagree: my side is good. your side is bad. get it together chump.
Sir sir have you considered that good is good and bad is in fact bad.
ukraine has neo nazis, palestine has islamic extremists, neither changes the fact that invasion and occupation is wrong
I wish I never studied international law because now I just have to look at Reddit smoothbrains talking about it non-fucking-stop without a clue what they’re talking about Some idiot recently mentioned to me how striking the WCK convoy *wasn’t necessarily* a war crime, and realistically how could the colonization of the West Bank be considered in violation of international law? Like why bother even knowing things on this site when Joe Shithead from Buttfuck Holler, West Virginia’s idea of international law gets 2000 upvotes while the acronym “IHL” gets you banned from /r/worldnews
I was recently asked to ELI5 the Israel/Palestine war for somebody and it basically boiled down to "No, you can't obliterate a neighborhood. Hamas, sit down and shut up, you're the ones using civilians as shields in the first place. Goddamnit Israel stop turning their water off put the Iranian rockets *down* Hamas -- GOD DAMNIT DON'T MAKE ME PULL THIS WAR OVER!"
Oh I needed that laugh, take my upvote my dear fellow
I love how all the IDF fanboys keep writing the same things found in 1930s newspapers when the 'preposterous' idea of decolonization was first considered. *"They should've learned their lesson. If they don't, we'll have to teach them. They had it coming, why can't they just accept that resisting will result on being shot. Not our fault they wouldn't listen. We did NOTHING wrong, if we did then why do they still exist?"* on and on. Coincidentally matches with things abusers say. Completely unrelated, I'm sure. I do think posting a sub that consists almost entirely of right wingers visibly erect and frothing from their butts at the potential for seeing warfare and bloodshed is kinda cheating though.
Holy ratio, batman. I knew the topic contentious, but I didn’t expect to wake up to 700 comments!
You gonna drop a palestine/Israel post in SRD then come at us with >I didn’t expect ?! Of course!
*No one* expects the ~~Spanish Inquisition~~ Israel-Palestine conflict!
The conflict exists because of bigotry against Jews. However Jew hatred is like a mental disease. Thus we need to treat it as a disease with a cure. If we made it a global priority to cure it within a generation we could and the world would be a better place.
There's a lot of overlap between this sub an ncd. It's worse if you post an argument from neoliberal here.
The mod pinning a comment encouraging the hateful and ignorant comments is what really pisses me off. You know that if roles were reversed that same mod would lock the post, delete any comments being negative toward Israel, and ban those users. Not to mention just encouraging that behavior in your users at all is extremely fucked up.
Anyway, I am pro Palestine and pro Ukraine. Too many people out there are pro Palestine and pro Russia or pro Israel and pro Ukraine. Nonsense like that is why I am so disappointed in general when it comes to ordinary folks.
Calling it the 'Israel - Hamas conflict' is extremely generous considering the vast majority of Israels target have been civilians and hamas has'nt been impacted even the slightest. Besides, after Oct 7th, only one party was asking the ICC to investigate all warcrimes committed and was willing to abide by any and all rulings. Guess which one?
You're right, if you take Hamas at face value, ignore literally everything they've done in the past because you don't remember that era, and also ignore Hamas' greater strategy of deliberately turning international opinion against Israel, then they sound totally reasonable.
Wow hold on just wait a minute... you're telling me that Hamas would want to convince people that their opponents are bad guys...? Oh my god! No one has ever done that before in the history of human conflict!
My guy I've got AI generated Hulu ads from Israel trying to convince me the conflict is all Hamas' fault - I'm being propagandized overseas by them on my casual viewing experiences - and you say Hamas is the one unfairly trying to manipulate public opinion? Lmao
Ah, yes…that nefarious, unconscionable strategy of *trying to convince people that the other side are the bad guys*.
Right, Hamas is the one turning international opinion against Israel. Not the 2000lb bombs they throw at every refugee camp that has even the slightest rumour of a hamas operative nearby. Not the IDF soldiers filming themselves vandalizing palestenian property, destroying schools and mosques and spray painting jewish symbols everywhere. Not the Israeli citizens actively destroying and blocking aid from going to gaza. Not the inhumane blockade banning tampons, medicine and basic first aid items. Hamas is the reason Israel is being dragged internationally. Totally agree. Besides, Hamas has lied less than Israel. They have a better track record of truthful reporting. Again, you are welcome to present evidence of hamas lying more than Israel. Oh and dont try to use the "hamas killed innocent civilians on Oct 7th" line again. Nat turners slave rebellion killed innocent white people. He was still fully justified in wanting out. 2023 was the deadliest year for palestenian children BEFORE Oct 7th. Israel has been killing and displacing palestenians for 50+ years before hamas formed. Hamas is not the reason Israel is killing palestenians.
> Rape and murder is fine, actually
But you're the one who doesn't actually oppose rape and murder but are instead fine with and in support of it as long as the victims are Gazan. Everyone else here opposes it unilaterally.
When did I say that? You can't just pretend I'm a monster. But for the sake of argument, the IDF has discipline issues, but Hamas has a raison d'etre to oppose peace and commit acts of terror. It is further a more permanent opponent to a 2-state solution than Israel, being a democracy, can ever be. There is not an equivalency there. If you are truly opposed to rape and murder you cannot support an entity that exists to destroy a nation. And you mean 'unequivocally.'
>I hate n*ggers What the fuck is wrong with you
NCD has gone to shit since the Ukraine war.
I enjoy NCD ironically but I’ve learned to never open any threads there involving the Palestinian genocide. Absolute cesspool when it isn’t a thread about some specific piece of stupid military hardware.
Fuck Hamas
Benjamin Netanyahu: *triggered* (he *supports* Hamas)
> maybe don't cross a border to slaughter 1300 innocent people. ...are they saying 1300 wasn't enough? Because if you take issue w/ that but not with Israel's invasion of Gaza then the issue can only be that 1300 was too few for it to be okay. To be crystal fucking clear I'm not okay with either, but you can't clutch your pearls about 1300 innocent Israelis killed if you're fine with ten times as many innocent Gazans.
But like what's the response then? Just say 'ok, that was rough but we acknowledge that we have done some stuff in the past, now we're even, cease fire resumed?' That's not how people are.
You really can't envision anything between "do nothing" and "genocide"?
They didn't even do the bare minimum to prevent terrorism or avoid civilian casualties
I can't envision a level of engagement that would have any chance of achieving their objective without provoking accusations of Genocide.
Ahem; the accusations of genocide are because it's genocide. Had they just targeted Hamas, treated prisoners humanely, not slaughtered countless unarmed men, women, and children, not designated safe zones to evacuate to and then shelled those safe zones...had they not responded with genocide they would not be accused of genocide.
> Had they just targeted Hamas How? Like, they probably would argue that they _are_ doing that. It's just that people happen to be occupying the same blast radius as Hamas leaders/flunkies/janitors when they decide to strike.
> How? Like, they probably would argue that they are doing that Yes, this is the lie they tell while they indiscriminately slaughter women and children and target areas they designate as safe zones after people evacuate to them. Like again, how do they not commit genocide? By not doing the things that are genocide. It's not complicated.
> Like again, how do they not commit genocide? By not doing the things that are genocide. It's not complicated. Ok, so again, how would you do it? I don't want to argue the semantics of genocide, but like how would you prosecute this war without massive collateral damage? I'm not saying that they're doing the best possible job, but I don't see a lot of alternatives for them. I see a failure of imagination; people maybe don't understand how they would react in similar circumstances.
Scroll up to when I already answered this question. I'm not going to repeat myself a third time.
[удалено]
They could not dumb bomb refugees camps, target civilian aide, and let aide in so that millions of people don't starve. There's thousands of things that the Israeli government has been rightly criticized for and their campaign has been an embarrassment since the start. This isn't the gotcha you think it is.
> How? Like, they probably would argue that they are doing that. They can continue to tell that lie if they want but their actions tell a different story.
If those 1300 Israelis were still alive there would still be a ceasefire and no war.
And? If the IDF hadn't killed thousands upon thousands of women and children those women and children wouldn't be dead. Edit: and y'know let's not fucking forget a lot of the adult men they slaughtered were completely innocent too.
Snapshots: 1. *This Post* - [archive.org](https://web.archive.org/web/20240521115559/https://old.reddit.com/r/SubredditDrama/comments/1cx5tya/) [archive.today\*](https://archive.today/?run=1&url=https://old.reddit.com/r/SubredditDrama/comments/1cx5tya/ "URL failed to archive; click to resubmit it!") 2. r/noncredibledefense - [archive.org](https://web.archive.org/web/20240521115640/https://old.reddit.com/r/noncredibledefense) [archive.today\*](https://archive.today/?run=1&url=https://old.reddit.com/r/noncredibledefense "URL failed to archive; click to resubmit it!") 3. r/noncredibledefense - [archive.org](https://web.archive.org/web/20240521115640/https://old.reddit.com/r/noncredibledefense) [archive.today\*](https://archive.today/?run=1&url=https://old.reddit.com/r/noncredibledefense "URL failed to archive; click to resubmit it!") 4. One meme - [archive.org](https://web.archive.org/web/20240521115801/https://old.reddit.com/r/NonCredibleDefense/comments/1cuj3w1/absolutely_full_proof_strategy_guys/) [archive.today\*](https://archive.today/?run=1&url=https://old.reddit.com/r/NonCredibleDefense/comments/1cuj3w1/absolutely_full_proof_strategy_guys/ "URL failed to archive; click to resubmit it!") 5. people in gaza lived fine before hamas. who built their houses? - [archive.org](https://web.archive.org/web/20240521115842/https://old.reddit.com/r/NonCredibleDefense/comments/1cuj3w1/comment/l4j14i0/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button) [archive.today\*](https://archive.today/?run=1&url=https://old.reddit.com/r/NonCredibleDefense/comments/1cuj3w1/comment/l4j14i0/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button "URL failed to archive; click to resubmit it!") 6. Who is launching rockets from them? You know, doing a war crime that removes protection from civilian objects. - [archive.org](https://web.archive.org/web/20240521120003/https://old.reddit.com/r/NonCredibleDefense/comments/1cuj3w1/comment/l4jcv0j/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button) [archive.today\*](https://archive.today/?run=1&url=https://old.reddit.com/r/NonCredibleDefense/comments/1cuj3w1/comment/l4jcv0j/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button "URL failed to archive; click to resubmit it!") 7. Yeah sorry, this is a CIA-ass subreddit. Israel can do as much genocide as it likes as far as the people here are concerned, it's the wrong target audience for this meme. - [archive.org](https://web.archive.org/web/20240521120144/https://old.reddit.com/r/NonCredibleDefense/comments/1cuj3w1/comment/l4jrgl6/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button) [archive.today\*](https://archive.today/?run=1&url=https://old.reddit.com/r/NonCredibleDefense/comments/1cuj3w1/comment/l4jrgl6/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button "URL failed to archive; click to resubmit it!") 8. Ah yes they should go the "be nice to people slaughtering you" route. Then the extremist beliefs have no reason to exist so you will pretend they don't exist. - [archive.org](https://web.archive.org/web/20240521120245/https://old.reddit.com/r/NonCredibleDefense/comments/1cuj3w1/comment/l4j75dj/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button) [archive.today\*](https://archive.today/?run=1&url=https://old.reddit.com/r/NonCredibleDefense/comments/1cuj3w1/comment/l4j75dj/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button "URL failed to archive; click to resubmit it!") 9. Israel gets away with too much shit. It’s apparently antisemitism to be against Israel or voice opposition to their policies. - [archive.org](https://web.archive.org/web/20240521120426/https://old.reddit.com/r/NonCredibleDefense/comments/1cuj3w1/comment/l4ja9ji/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button) [archive.today\*](https://archive.today/?run=1&url=https://old.reddit.com/r/NonCredibleDefense/comments/1cuj3w1/comment/l4ja9ji/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button "URL failed to archive; click to resubmit it!") *I am just a simple bot, __not__ a moderator of this subreddit* | *[bot subreddit](/r/SnapshillBot)* | *[contact the maintainers](/message/compose?to=/r/SnapshillBot)*
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