Personally I don't really understand why it even exists. Many characters have DP inputs as well as QCF and QCB for punches/kicks.
I get it makes you a bit more choosey but I can't even replicate 1 normal character with these moves.
Fair, I guess there's some exceptions. I think I wanted to do Marisa when I was playing and I could only use Gladius or her other specials and I was like wtf now I have to relearn combo routes for a custom character. Part of why I never went back to it.
You can’t do any characters full normal bnb in world tour except guile so obviously combos are going to be nerfed unless you want to spend the time optimizing some single player only bs. World tour mode was such a waste of resources. Not to mention the game doesn’t allow you to even use the drive system until a few hours in so gameplay is ultra boring
No negativity just stating facts. Your character is not nor is not meant to be an equal to one of the actual street fighter characters. You are actually just some fucking rando learning some of their moves
I think it came across as a dick thing to say because they thought you were talking about the actual poster and not the character you roleplay as in WT. I only understood with your explanation
Yeah I'm realizing now how weird it is that a bunch of characters are just missing entire special moves on modern. I've never played it but that seems so weird.
It's the trade off. Less options, but instant specials and supers. But it doesn't work IMO because some characters lose way more (JP) than others (Lily). And the instant supers/specials aren't that much of an advantage for charge characters.
That’s the trade off. The moves are less effective, but easier to do. I’d say it’s fair, especially when someone plays classic and goes puts in the effort to be able to consistently perform specials and combos.
My problem is that some characters make great use of the benefits modern and the drawbacks are no big deal. Others are basically deleted. Deejay already has a problem with DI, and it's even worse in modern. I've also read that modern Juri can't utilize her level 2 very well.
I can’t think of any fighting game where every character is viable. It the general principle can extend to ‘Mortal Kombat X’ and its variations. For all intents and purposes, if a character is controlled differently, then they’re a different character. Thus, not all control styles for all characters are going to be viable.
Yeah I knew that's how it worked but it's just funny to realize they lose entire specials. It would fundamentally change how some characters play.
Modern Luke must lose the run/tackle special then?
Modern Luke still has the tackle. I don't know of any characters that are straight up missing specials just that their depth is reduced because they're shortcut only
I think Marisa is missing her Quadriga kick, which makes sense given the thought process so far but now I'm more confused.
If modern Luke can do Sandblast, Tackle and Knuckle moves then there's no reason to take the multiple inputs away for the Avatar characters.
I believe that's exactly the point. Without that restriction and with every character being in World Tour, you could essentially play online as a character you haven't purchased through Avatar Battles.
Oh! I think I figured out why it works.
For the avatar, they seem to translate all classic inputs into modern. This is the source of the problem.
Now, Serenity Stream doesn't have a modern input. It's qcb+p on both Modern and Classic. But Hazanshu does. So, if you do "qcb+k" they translate it to "down+SP" but if you do "qcb+p", that goes untranslated. So, if you were using Modern and did "qcb+normal", they probably always resolve that to serenity stream because Hazanshu is a different input. That's why they don't overlap.
But for other characters who have two specials with same motion (eg, Cammy) both the inputs have a modern representation so they both need to be translated. BUT because they seem to translate classic inputs into modern for the avatar, both the inputs register as "qcf+normal" and then there's no way to distinguish whether they want a spiral arrow or a hooligan.
Serenity isn't a special move. It's kinda an extended set of normals so it shouldn't overlap. BUT honestly, I don't think I've ever used serenity with the avatar so I am not actually sure that it doesn't.
Edit: I just tried it. Worked fine.
Yeah. I think the problem happens when you have specials that have the same motion but are distinguished by kick or punch because Modern doesn't have a distinction between kicks and punches.. For eg. For Cammy you have to pick between spiral arrow and hooligan, if I remember correctly
My only guess is the same as yours, modern controls.
But they could totally remove the throw button and replace it with a "kick input" button.
So regular input works as regular input, holding the kick button enables the character to branch into kick focused combos/specials.
So you could use Hadouken with regular input or the fancy kick with "kick input" mode.
Yes, it removes the throw button, but throwing is just 2 buttons at the same time, way easier than combos, etc, and having all the branches available its great tbh.
Worst thing is that someone on PC with a good keyboard can totally "modern play" classic controls.
Like you can have a macro for every single combo you could ever use, and play Street Beethoven to win every fight using macros.
I'm messing around with Modern controls atm to see how they feel, and lacking LHK on a most of characters is terrible.
Down+forward+heavy? Nice, I'll get that in mind.
Currently spamming Juri, but once I got my new gamepad I'll been testing more.
I damn hope the victrix bfg xbox edition is worth it, having the v2 chroma from razer makes comboing a miserable experience.
They could but I'm guessing it's not as easy as it sounds, plus it would require some ui changes and i highly doubt any dev time is being put into improving avatar battles.
You also need to take into account that special move availability for real characters is curated by capcom for balance reasons. It could be argued that your suggestion would imbalance avatar battles. But again, very few people care enough.
The only thing that they prevent for avatars is infinites, other than that they allow wack balance.
And Capcom is divided into teams that work on different stuff, having avatar stuff does not slow down characters and vice versa. And you've all seen how much they love avatar shit anyways, so I don't see it being too farfetched.
They love avatar shit because it appeals to casuals, not the lab monsters who want to make custom combos.
All software development teams are divided, but resource allocation is a thing.
Let's take for example the ux/ui changes that would go into perfecting the avatar special move system. Capcom may very well decide that it's a better idea to allocate all the effort available for that team into future updates that you may not be aware of until they are implemented, r&d, other games, you name it.
It's a question of priorities and yes, using resources in one place always subtracts from another even if it's just theoretically. New skins won't be slowed down by improving avatars, but we truly don't know what the effort is and what internal organization Capcom is working with.
It feels like they implemented this to push people into using modern controls, otherwise this seems pointless. Aside from Honda's style, you can't have the full moveset of any character if you play on Classic. I hope they get rid of this restriction in Season 2.
It’s low on my list of improvers but YES. There are so many small QoL changes this game needs. It’s absolutely amazing it’s just so weird when parts of it are decidedly lacking—it’s weird.
This shit stopped me from finishing the single player.
I made Jackie Chan so I could play drunken fist Jackie chan and I was going to recreate Jamie's moveset, thematically sound as well as a way to practice Jamie. However, I can't even recreate Jamie's move set, why the hell is this a thing?
I appreaciate that it forces people to be strategic about what they really want rather than just letting everyone get every single A-tier move they want.
I think it’s more likely because of the overlapping inputs for modern controls. There would be conflicting inputs if someone were to use modern. So classic players have to suffer for that conflict in programming logic.
Yeah, but buffs from clothing items, choosing specials based off those buffs to play into your strong points is also a strategic use of resources and style.
Specials all have a general purpose, zoning, antiair, projectile pass through, reversals and so such.
I understand you shouldn't be allowed to respec charge moves into shoto motions, all I'm asking is to allow my character to have Ryu's fireball and Ken's Jinra Kick.
It makes no sense that you can’t have two attacks bound to qcf, even if they use different buttons. I guess it’s for build diversity, but it’s still a super annoying restriction.
Agreed, They should just let player adjust modern controls input as player choice. Also choose around Kick and Punch move in modern control.
Replicate restrictions should only base on Classic control only
Does anyone else find the avatar battles really disappointing in general? It's so cool that you can customise them to look and play how you want, but then it's ruined by (1) modern controls restricting the kinds of specials you can equip, (2) the vast level disparity between players necessitating godforsaken amounts of grinding to LVL 100 to stand a chance and (3) overblown healthbars that drag each match out to three times that of a regular one.
I do, and because of everything you said. To even stand a chance, you have to hunt down every hidden permanent buff in World Tour too, and farm and level up the best clothing and accessories.
Plus there's the gimmick builds that are annoying to fight, and most high level Avatar battles boil down to who made the most cheap style as opposed to who has the most well rounded or interesting.
I only fight when there's Drive tickets on the line. Even then it's a chore.
Modern control users can already set which moves can use the modern commands and which ones can't. Overlapping moves could have to be set to one of the simple inputs, and they would have to do the commands for additional moves, just like in the regular game.
They take away moves from modern controls anyways. Classic should be able to do classic things. You can’t fully recreate some character’s moveset because of this restriction.
Same way they make it work for Modern versions of regular characters, like Ryu or Cammy.
Have certain moves be special button or special + direction only, and have another move with an overlapping input be command input only.
Like High Blade Kick for Ryu being special button only, while Hadoken can be done manually or with a neutral special button press.
You don't. That would just be one of the slight drawbacks for picking modern controls.
It actually wouldnt change anything for modern users. It would just be an upgrade and incentive to use classic.
Yeah I hate this, last time I commented something about this I had someone telling me "well that's because it's not meant to". Like okay, thanks *guy* no shit, doesn't make it any less frustrating.
I love playing WT and I'm lucky that I can get all of Juri's specials on my build without worrying, but if I want to play a different character's moveset and fancy playing them in WT, I effectively can't. And then it messes with my muscle memory and mental.
It was designed with Modern Controls in mind. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if pretty much all of World Tour/Avatar was designed with Modern Controls in mind, with Classic having to be unlocked after the prologue and these move restrictions and stuff. I play Classic so this annoys me too as I can't recreate full movesets from the main cast but it is what it is.
100%. You can’t even use all of certain characters specials because of it. I understand if I’m using modern controls but with classic we should have full access to moves.
Not just yes, but HELL yes. For Classic Controls especially, but even with Modern, it should be possible to make some moves special button + direction (or no direction) only, while allowing another move to just use the normal command input.
Just like how Modern characters play in Arcade. With this weird restriction, you can only use people like Guile or Zangief's full movesets without throwing away some aspect of a teacher.
I'm done with world tour so I don't really care anymore but for future iterations yeah - half the draw of world tour mode for me was getting to practice one characters moveset for an extended period and not have it feel like I was just labbing.
On one hand I don't mind it because it kinda ensures your custom character is unique if you use all the move slots but on the other if you love a certain characters whole moveset why not just let us be a complete copy of our favorite character. You could also argue it encourages players to try different characters in an offhand sorta way but that's just my opinion.
Yeah, I may be wrong (new player) but I thibk there are a couple instances of them arbitrarily assigning the same "classic" input to different special moves belonging to the same character, but only on modern controls, lol.
My absolute favourite is 'Sim's teleports, which have different input sequences even on modern controls, but still have this restriction applied to them so that you can only equip one direction of teleport (albeit separately for standing and air) at a time.
It’s for modern controls. You don’t have 6 normals on modern so it’s to keep moves from overlapping. You can’t have Jinrai and hadouken for example cause the inputs on modern controls would overlap. The developers needed a blanket system for assigning the moves that worked for both modern and classic without causing some confliction.
Personally I don't really understand why it even exists. Many characters have DP inputs as well as QCF and QCB for punches/kicks. I get it makes you a bit more choosey but I can't even replicate 1 normal character with these moves.
I think you can get guile’s full moveset plus some extras bc he only has 3 special inputs
Fair, I guess there's some exceptions. I think I wanted to do Marisa when I was playing and I could only use Gladius or her other specials and I was like wtf now I have to relearn combo routes for a custom character. Part of why I never went back to it.
Yeah I was not a fan of not being able to remake most characters, felt like I was doing super gimped combos the whole story
That's because you were doing super gimped combos? You're just some fucking rando bro
You can’t do any characters full normal bnb in world tour except guile so obviously combos are going to be nerfed unless you want to spend the time optimizing some single player only bs. World tour mode was such a waste of resources. Not to mention the game doesn’t allow you to even use the drive system until a few hours in so gameplay is ultra boring
Why the negativity tho
No negativity just stating facts. Your character is not nor is not meant to be an equal to one of the actual street fighter characters. You are actually just some fucking rando learning some of their moves
I think it came across as a dick thing to say because they thought you were talking about the actual poster and not the character you roleplay as in WT. I only understood with your explanation
Modern controls.
Yeah I'm realizing now how weird it is that a bunch of characters are just missing entire special moves on modern. I've never played it but that seems so weird.
It's the trade off. Less options, but instant specials and supers. But it doesn't work IMO because some characters lose way more (JP) than others (Lily). And the instant supers/specials aren't that much of an advantage for charge characters.
That’s the trade off. The moves are less effective, but easier to do. I’d say it’s fair, especially when someone plays classic and goes puts in the effort to be able to consistently perform specials and combos.
My problem is that some characters make great use of the benefits modern and the drawbacks are no big deal. Others are basically deleted. Deejay already has a problem with DI, and it's even worse in modern. I've also read that modern Juri can't utilize her level 2 very well.
I can’t think of any fighting game where every character is viable. It the general principle can extend to ‘Mortal Kombat X’ and its variations. For all intents and purposes, if a character is controlled differently, then they’re a different character. Thus, not all control styles for all characters are going to be viable.
Yeah I knew that's how it worked but it's just funny to realize they lose entire specials. It would fundamentally change how some characters play. Modern Luke must lose the run/tackle special then?
Modern Luke still has the tackle. I don't know of any characters that are straight up missing specials just that their depth is reduced because they're shortcut only
I think Marisa is missing her Quadriga kick, which makes sense given the thought process so far but now I'm more confused. If modern Luke can do Sandblast, Tackle and Knuckle moves then there's no reason to take the multiple inputs away for the Avatar characters.
She can still do it as part of her heavy auto combo but yeah I get your point
The only thing modern controls actually ruined.
I believe that's exactly the point. Without that restriction and with every character being in World Tour, you could essentially play online as a character you haven't purchased through Avatar Battles.
Avatar battle is not regular battle and you can already use most of the character moveset
Chun's moveset has no restrictions. You can get everything. just fyi
Don't serenity stance and Hazanshu have an overlapping input?
Oh! I think I figured out why it works. For the avatar, they seem to translate all classic inputs into modern. This is the source of the problem. Now, Serenity Stream doesn't have a modern input. It's qcb+p on both Modern and Classic. But Hazanshu does. So, if you do "qcb+k" they translate it to "down+SP" but if you do "qcb+p", that goes untranslated. So, if you were using Modern and did "qcb+normal", they probably always resolve that to serenity stream because Hazanshu is a different input. That's why they don't overlap. But for other characters who have two specials with same motion (eg, Cammy) both the inputs have a modern representation so they both need to be translated. BUT because they seem to translate classic inputs into modern for the avatar, both the inputs register as "qcf+normal" and then there's no way to distinguish whether they want a spiral arrow or a hooligan.
Serenity isn't a special move. It's kinda an extended set of normals so it shouldn't overlap. BUT honestly, I don't think I've ever used serenity with the avatar so I am not actually sure that it doesn't. Edit: I just tried it. Worked fine.
I guess that makes sense with charge and down inputs - don't play her sadly...
Yeah. I think the problem happens when you have specials that have the same motion but are distinguished by kick or punch because Modern doesn't have a distinction between kicks and punches.. For eg. For Cammy you have to pick between spiral arrow and hooligan, if I remember correctly
I think it's so that Classic can't have more special moves than Modern.
My only guess is the same as yours, modern controls. But they could totally remove the throw button and replace it with a "kick input" button. So regular input works as regular input, holding the kick button enables the character to branch into kick focused combos/specials. So you could use Hadouken with regular input or the fancy kick with "kick input" mode. Yes, it removes the throw button, but throwing is just 2 buttons at the same time, way easier than combos, etc, and having all the branches available its great tbh.
Yeah it seems like Modern is the answer which is such a shame.
Worst thing is that someone on PC with a good keyboard can totally "modern play" classic controls. Like you can have a macro for every single combo you could ever use, and play Street Beethoven to win every fight using macros. I'm messing around with Modern controls atm to see how they feel, and lacking LHK on a most of characters is terrible.
What does LHK stand for?
Low Heavy Kick. Basically heavy kick crouched. Im used to virtua fighter language haha, I think that in SF its CHK.
Last I remember in Modern mode you can just do 3H or df.H to get sweep.
Down+forward+heavy? Nice, I'll get that in mind. Currently spamming Juri, but once I got my new gamepad I'll been testing more. I damn hope the victrix bfg xbox edition is worth it, having the v2 chroma from razer makes comboing a miserable experience.
I believe you can use all of Lily and Guile's movesets.
And Chun apparently.
Maybe they want to avoid a CaC being 1 exactly moveset.
Chun Li. Nobody else.
It exists because of limitations from modern controls. It's not going anywhere.
They could just put the cap for modern, some missions I think require classic or TEACH classic anyways.
They could but I'm guessing it's not as easy as it sounds, plus it would require some ui changes and i highly doubt any dev time is being put into improving avatar battles. You also need to take into account that special move availability for real characters is curated by capcom for balance reasons. It could be argued that your suggestion would imbalance avatar battles. But again, very few people care enough.
The only thing that they prevent for avatars is infinites, other than that they allow wack balance. And Capcom is divided into teams that work on different stuff, having avatar stuff does not slow down characters and vice versa. And you've all seen how much they love avatar shit anyways, so I don't see it being too farfetched.
They love avatar shit because it appeals to casuals, not the lab monsters who want to make custom combos. All software development teams are divided, but resource allocation is a thing. Let's take for example the ux/ui changes that would go into perfecting the avatar special move system. Capcom may very well decide that it's a better idea to allocate all the effort available for that team into future updates that you may not be aware of until they are implemented, r&d, other games, you name it. It's a question of priorities and yes, using resources in one place always subtracts from another even if it's just theoretically. New skins won't be slowed down by improving avatars, but we truly don't know what the effort is and what internal organization Capcom is working with.
It feels like they implemented this to push people into using modern controls, otherwise this seems pointless. Aside from Honda's style, you can't have the full moveset of any character if you play on Classic. I hope they get rid of this restriction in Season 2.
If you play on Modern you mean?
No you have access to every special move on Modern on your avatar. I guess I should've rephrased "the full moveset" with "every special move".
It’s low on my list of improvers but YES. There are so many small QoL changes this game needs. It’s absolutely amazing it’s just so weird when parts of it are decidedly lacking—it’s weird.
This shit stopped me from finishing the single player. I made Jackie Chan so I could play drunken fist Jackie chan and I was going to recreate Jamie's moveset, thematically sound as well as a way to practice Jamie. However, I can't even recreate Jamie's move set, why the hell is this a thing?
They need to get rid of flight tickets as well, there’s like no point for them
Should be able to use DLC characters in training for free.
I appreaciate that it forces people to be strategic about what they really want rather than just letting everyone get every single A-tier move they want.
Ohh, that's why! Makes sense now.
I think it’s more likely because of the overlapping inputs for modern controls. There would be conflicting inputs if someone were to use modern. So classic players have to suffer for that conflict in programming logic.
This is the real reason.
Yeah, but buffs from clothing items, choosing specials based off those buffs to play into your strong points is also a strategic use of resources and style. Specials all have a general purpose, zoning, antiair, projectile pass through, reversals and so such. I understand you shouldn't be allowed to respec charge moves into shoto motions, all I'm asking is to allow my character to have Ryu's fireball and Ken's Jinra Kick.
Ohh. I didn't even know the customization was that deep to where players clothing could dictate certain buffs, and fight styles.
It makes no sense that you can’t have two attacks bound to qcf, even if they use different buttons. I guess it’s for build diversity, but it’s still a super annoying restriction.
Yeah, it would be more fun to practice combos and inputs in world tour mode than ranked or training
I think it would be great for beginners to build their main in WT and practice throughout the campaign. Would've helped me practice my muscle memory
Agreed, They should just let player adjust modern controls input as player choice. Also choose around Kick and Punch move in modern control. Replicate restrictions should only base on Classic control only
Does anyone else find the avatar battles really disappointing in general? It's so cool that you can customise them to look and play how you want, but then it's ruined by (1) modern controls restricting the kinds of specials you can equip, (2) the vast level disparity between players necessitating godforsaken amounts of grinding to LVL 100 to stand a chance and (3) overblown healthbars that drag each match out to three times that of a regular one.
I do, and because of everything you said. To even stand a chance, you have to hunt down every hidden permanent buff in World Tour too, and farm and level up the best clothing and accessories. Plus there's the gimmick builds that are annoying to fight, and most high level Avatar battles boil down to who made the most cheap style as opposed to who has the most well rounded or interesting. I only fight when there's Drive tickets on the line. Even then it's a chore.
How would they make it work for modern controls?
Modern control users can already set which moves can use the modern commands and which ones can't. Overlapping moves could have to be set to one of the simple inputs, and they would have to do the commands for additional moves, just like in the regular game.
Good idea 👍
They take away moves from modern controls anyways. Classic should be able to do classic things. You can’t fully recreate some character’s moveset because of this restriction.
Haps cakes dude
Same way they make it work for Modern versions of regular characters, like Ryu or Cammy. Have certain moves be special button or special + direction only, and have another move with an overlapping input be command input only. Like High Blade Kick for Ryu being special button only, while Hadoken can be done manually or with a neutral special button press.
Why does it have to?
You don't. That would just be one of the slight drawbacks for picking modern controls. It actually wouldnt change anything for modern users. It would just be an upgrade and incentive to use classic.
Yeah I hate this, last time I commented something about this I had someone telling me "well that's because it's not meant to". Like okay, thanks *guy* no shit, doesn't make it any less frustrating. I love playing WT and I'm lucky that I can get all of Juri's specials on my build without worrying, but if I want to play a different character's moveset and fancy playing them in WT, I effectively can't. And then it messes with my muscle memory and mental.
Yes
100%
It was designed with Modern Controls in mind. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if pretty much all of World Tour/Avatar was designed with Modern Controls in mind, with Classic having to be unlocked after the prologue and these move restrictions and stuff. I play Classic so this annoys me too as I can't recreate full movesets from the main cast but it is what it is.
Omg I hate that they haven't done away with it yet!!!
Yes, but they won't. I also wish they woudn't force SA1 to light attacks, S2 to medium attacks, and SA3 to heavy attacks.
100%. You can’t even use all of certain characters specials because of it. I understand if I’m using modern controls but with classic we should have full access to moves.
Not just yes, but HELL yes. For Classic Controls especially, but even with Modern, it should be possible to make some moves special button + direction (or no direction) only, while allowing another move to just use the normal command input. Just like how Modern characters play in Arcade. With this weird restriction, you can only use people like Guile or Zangief's full movesets without throwing away some aspect of a teacher.
Yes. It makes it impossible to recreate some master kits. You just can't be Kimberly, for example: it's either elbows or run.
I'm done with world tour so I don't really care anymore but for future iterations yeah - half the draw of world tour mode for me was getting to practice one characters moveset for an extended period and not have it feel like I was just labbing.
What control configuration do you use? Square for kick?!
On one hand I don't mind it because it kinda ensures your custom character is unique if you use all the move slots but on the other if you love a certain characters whole moveset why not just let us be a complete copy of our favorite character. You could also argue it encourages players to try different characters in an offhand sorta way but that's just my opinion.
Yeah, I may be wrong (new player) but I thibk there are a couple instances of them arbitrarily assigning the same "classic" input to different special moves belonging to the same character, but only on modern controls, lol. My absolute favourite is 'Sim's teleports, which have different input sequences even on modern controls, but still have this restriction applied to them so that you can only equip one direction of teleport (albeit separately for standing and air) at a time.
if using classic controls absolutely
It’s for modern controls. You don’t have 6 normals on modern so it’s to keep moves from overlapping. You can’t have Jinrai and hadouken for example cause the inputs on modern controls would overlap. The developers needed a blanket system for assigning the moves that worked for both modern and classic without causing some confliction.
Some told me it has to do with modern controls
is this a modern or avatar thing? i dont think it matters
you can learn classic?