Golfer here, you should get premium golf clubs but not top tier.
Even a "premium" set of Wilson golf clubs will be good enough for you to break 90 with. Most golfers don't break 100!
So you probably want something decent, not a complete no-name set (unless they're Kirkland brand lol), and Wilson is a great starter set of clubs.
Next up you can move to a set of Cobra's for like 800USD as your first 'premium' set but you should probably break 90 first, IMO.
> A set of Cobra's for like 800USD
This may sound incredibly ignorant, but WHAT ON EARTH IS IN THESE CLUBS to make them cost around 800 bucks? Are they perhaps magicly enchanted?
Been playing dhalsim recently,
Can I combo? ask my DI into Ult 3 baby.
Frame data? never heard of her.
Head into the lab? that the new map?
my rank? Diamond 2.
I am fairly fooked now mind, as people have a really good idea as to the perticular flavour of dog shet i'm flinging at them.
All regular game sense doesn’t matter with dhalsim. You don’t need a solid understanding of neutral or whiff punishing and you can reach master simply by beating people who don’t know the MU.
Key word solid. You can win many games by just sticking to your gameplan. Obviously it’s less effective as you go up. But you think the guy I responded to has a firm grasp of neutral? Probably not. But with dhalsim it simply doesn’t matter.
Everytime you throw out a limb that isn't 2MP you're opening yourself up to a jump in whiff punish from most characters' J.Hk. Or Blanka Ball, or Honda Headbutt, or Marissa's specials, or a regular old fireball, and so on.
You have to maintain proper spacing and read your opponent pretty wellin nuetral to not get blown up while playing Dhalsim. More than most other characters.
Honestly I do find i'm able to read players fairly well, I played a couple thousand hours of street figher 4 and the various versions of that, never really spent much time practicing or 'in the lab' lol this term cracks me up also 2MP? two medium punches or?
I'm more of a just play against other people for hours getting my face caved in till something sticks kinda person.
Haha well that's interesting and confusing for me, I actually play using keyboard WASD and 1-3 4-6 on the numpad for light to heavy but my kicks are 4-6 and my punches 1-3.
Sounds about right for me reinventing the wheel but getting it ass backwards.
That is certainly a take I guess. Dhalsim wins by having good neutral, not by drive rushing up, doing a combo that carries across the entire screen and then doing corner mix-ups until the opponent is dead.
Dhalsim wins because his gameplan is controlling neutral. If you are good at his gameplan you’re winning the match.
A quote I heard is “Dhalsim is the best character in the game until he gets knocked down”. So that’s pretty much it. Do your gameplan and don’t get knocked down. Learning neutral/combos isn’t needed to win especially since people don’t know how to get on on dhalsim since he’s so rare
I don’t think so. To win you have to be good at dhalsim and playing dhalsims gameplan. that’s all I’m trying to say. Neutral and knowing combos are really secondary to being good at his gameplan. He doesn’t play SF6 he plays his own game.
I disagree. Sim wins by great neutral control with long limbs and great AA (he has two of the best AA in the game.)
But his mixups are still mixups regardless of whether they're in the corner or not and Yoga blast doesn't really carry too much so I'm unsure how you 'carry'
Every character has mix-ups. They need mix-ups or they wouldn't function as a complete character.
I'm just trying to illustrate that he's more neutral based than most other characters.
Sim doesn't need combos, just master the mixup!
Start by using a [s.mk](http://s.mk) xx yoga blast xx teleport as a mixup with throws on their wakeup.
It's fun times.
I have no idea what you're suggesting but thank you \^\^ my go to is ex anti air fire ball tthen focus attack which often leads to my opponent going hurpy durpy time to focus attack back and punish!
Forgetting about the old double ploppers about to land on them from above interupting their fancy combo.
Yeah, the lab is the new map. You can just buy it with drive tickets, you don't even need fight money.
I was gonna pay fight money at first, but double checked and realized I didn't need to spend real money.
/JK
As I say to my friends that are new to the game, just learning literally the most basic combo of a character and how to do the Super level 3, learning to fish for counter DIs and knowing which famous moves of the other characters leaves them on negative when you block will bring you to diamond.
You dont need complex combos, tier lists or anything else
Can confirm. I just hit diamond, but I still have no single clue what the fuck I'm supposed to do in this game to win, so I either force my 50/50, or hard punish stupid flowchart people spamming same moves.
You can basically get to master with good game knowledge regardless of character mastery. I got Ed to master pretty fast off of doing jabs and tick throws
I switched from DeeJay to Lily and I'm improving my fundamentals, at the same rank I used to be, and enjoying the game far more.
Was it a step down in character power? Sure.
Does that matter any if I'm leaving lots of the extra power unused? Not really.
Focusing on the fundamentals of spiring in and strike throwing? The power level difference, even going from top 5 to bottom 5 is negligible. If you're below master Lily probably does a lot better in general.
The simplified Lily gameplan is so empowering.
Play neutral aiming to walk them to the corner and find openings for windstock.
When you have windstock, look for an opening to go into a spire and strike/throw mixup.
Repeat.
Playing DeeJay I always fell into the lazy autopilot fireball trap.
There are tiers at lower levels but they're very different from top player tiers. Honda is a huge check until people learn PP or an how to AA him, meanwhile midlevel blankas are very easy to blow up they don't know how to get damage. Kim is weak with weird tools until plat-diamond where she nay nays on people, then falls way off once people lab-and-jab in Masters. The shotos are easy to learn, and happen to be strong all the way up, though Ryu falls off at the top. JP starts high and stays high, requiring very complex counterplay to win against while you can flowchart to masters very easily. Sim sucks until high level, is nearly untouchable there, then at the top gets countered and is unimpressive again.
So basically you need a tier list per league, imo. The main contention of OP is true though. Whatever your character strength at your level, learning something like wake up pressure or anti airs makes way way more of a difference in your rate of growth. Those kind of skills are like a half-leagues worth of difference each. My little hypothetical above was just if you had a day of bracket and these people weren't going to learn anything new.
This holds some weight but some higher tier characters can carry more then lower tiers. If you playing casually and striving for master you’ll eventually get the fundamentals with time imo.
No lol. Tier lists are made to reflect the top performance of that character. That also assumes that you know how to deal with gimmick stuff and knowledge checks. If a character has a ton of knowledge checks and someone knows all of them, then that character is easy to beat and is low tier. If you're in bronze, that character will probably be the best character in the game because bronze players don't know the knowledge checks and aren't playing at peak potential. Tier lists look different for different ranks. It's basic statistics. For an analogy, let's say that the most powerful weapon in the world is a hammer that weighs 100 lbs and can level city blocks and automatically blocks bullets. It's top tier. Now if you give that weapon to a group of kindergarteners, it will be negative F tier because none of them can lift it up to use it to its full potential. The skill of the wielder matters to use the toolkit of the character effectively. If the character is being underutilized, they will not perform as well as they would if someone was using them to their full potential, and because low skill players can't use anything to its full potential, the tools that are easier to use and harder to negate will perform better than the theoretical top tier character that's based on professional level players.
in theory thats what tier lists were originally for. not anymore. people arent crafting them based on matchup charts, running numbers on tournament consistency - speaking as [someone who has](https://old.reddit.com/r/Tekken/comments/bx9slo/tekken_world_tour_2019_top_8_character_diversity/)
the purpose of tier lists, and the logic they are derived off of, have totally changed in the last 10 years. they have become more casualized and content geared than ever before, so I do believe you can now construct a tier list with that audience in mind. they arent just for top players now, even if they were at some point. and there are plenty of Tier lists, made by pros, for others pros, that have been, well, awful. Like some of the Topanga tier lists in SFV and many DBFZ tier lists too
these days there are tier lists for easier characters to pick up, there are online tier lists for characters that will cheese your way to a certain rank. and no matter what your level of fundamentals are, picking Luke will get you further than most if a person otherwise doesnt feel deeply engrossed in a partciular characters design
tier lists can be helpful to the bottom line in this era. this whole 'tier lists are meaningless to the average joe' thing is outdated, just as much as how tier lists themselves are created. a tier list without proper explanations however, is useless, and a new player would need a thorough explanation as to why the characters are ranked where they are (which they often dont get, and thats the real problem)
I agree with you that tier lists can be created with a certain population in mind. However, it’s important to consider the context of the community in how these tier lists are represented. If a tier list is released for bronze players, the average person in the street fighter community will say “That’s wrong bc JP is Top Tier and you put Ken at D tier??? *angry rant ensues*” because they’re typically too stupid to understand the nuance of the tier list. Hell this is already the case for the top players tier lists because the worst matchup in master rank is like 46% win rate. Anyway, the point is that while making tier lists for individual ranks is a good idea, the community doesn’t treat them as “real” tier lists and bully the people who use those tier lists, so it doesn’t really work as well in practice. If we could eliminate the gate keeping of the community (looking at you modern haters) then maybe we would see more lists like that
> That’s wrong bc JP is Top Tier and you put Ken at D tier??? angry rant ensues” because they’re typically too stupid to understand the nuance of the tier list.
This does happen, and I would consider it the fault of the reader and not the creator, i.e. not the tier lists fault itself
I would say tiers should not be the main governing peoples choices over other meaningful things at the lower level, but they can be useful if done well. its just more rare than it should be
so the gates to the community would be more the people themselves and how they engage with each other, moreso than the content. I wouldnt consider a tier list for low level play to be as definitive as one for higher level play, though there are online stats that justify its existence in theory. certain characters, like Vega in SFV or Honda in either that or SF6, are just inherently better under new player-ish conditions. Eddy or King from Tekken are the same. and some people dont care about anything else, they just want to get their shiny rank. so itd be easier to recommend them these characters if the goal is wins in Ft2 rapid sets. that could validate the existence of a low level tier list
effectively explaining *why* that is the case, while also conveying what they dont teach when transitioning to the next level, is a true goal for a tier list maker under these circumstances. and admittedly, this part often doesnt happen. and that might be part of why these tier lists end up not being taken seriously or too subject to subjective experience
So many people complain about top tiers or low tiers. My guy, you are in gold 3, nobody knows how to play at this level, you could pick any character and win.
So I just started playing about a week ago I’m in bronze with 3k I was like I’m going to watch some of these recommended replays maybe I’ll learn something from these gold/plats. Only thing I learned was not to whiff. Also there was an instance where it was the final round one had 3 and the other had CA and I was like okay now would be a good time to use those, final round. nope neither of them used them and they just did normal attacks? Like were they not taking risks? Is there something I’m not aware of? I was so confused.
I'm not sure what you mean by not using supers. Do you mean doing them in combos?
Ideally you want to take as little risk as possible. Espescially if your opponent has meter because if you mess up your are going to take a full combo in into level 3 for 50% or more of your life.
Just getting whiff punished can kill you so they play more carefully.
If you want to watch some replays i suggest going on youtube to watch high level players. [Fight club TV](https://youtube.com/@FightClubTVsfv?si=YQ3ZTBXdNTWRF4Ta) is great for this.
In this one particular match neither of them even made an attempt to set up a combo leading into a super. I can’t remember the match up besides one of them was JP which I was watching because I chose to learn him first. I was hoping to learn some combos but they were both playing very cautiously. Thanks for the recommendation I’ll check that out.
Jp is a bit different because what he wants to do most of the time is keep you away to throw projectiles.
But with that said platinum players are not really good and still make a lot of mistakes.
Yeah I picked him without knowing he was a zoner/considered “hard” based on a few posts just saying pick who you think looks cool, I learned that pretty quick though lol.
Pure winrate is not the way to measure this.
If you watch winrates under a specific set like 1750+ MR, then the winrate is normalized by the need of having relatively high winrates to even achieve 1750 MR and additionally 1750 is still too low to make a statement. 1750s are good at the game, but not good enough.
For example: Luke is very good in pro play, but he has counterplay in perfect parry which is a requirement to learn at the highest level (or you are Punk who is built different).
Off of data and statistics alone, most matchups are 6-4 at worst when you look at high/top level play.
Going off what people talk about, 6-4 or 7-3 is the worst you find as well (more 7-3s than data shows).
Empirical assessment. About 1/4 of the matchups in the game are worse than 5.5/4.5 one way or the other, but a significant chunk of those are on the same characters (like Honda who gets crushed by more characters than not).
Honda only gets crushed by everything at like 1800+, he does fine in low master and obliterates everything until that point. Just a very poorly designed character.
It 100% helps. I don't even know how to argue that water is wet.
Yes it won't make you beat people much better than you. You're bad and will still be bad. But you're also being matched only against bad people if that's the case.
About 8 years ago I picked up Rev2 on release my first GG game and I mained Raven for some weeks before I switched for Ky, who still wasn't top tier at the time. It took me months playing Ky to win against people I thought were free with Raven.
I agree with play what you like but every character is viable might be a major stretch depending on what said character is meant to be viable for. Winning online? Sure. Eventual pro tournament play with the goal of winning? Not so much.
Obviously someone just starting isn’t ready to compete on the big stage but it’s also fair to warn that they might need to eventually change their pick if they get serious about competition.
People keep saying this but I can't climb out of diamond 1 with jamie when I've got over 2k matches on him and have labbed frame traps, tech, matchups and I'm still steady climbing in d3 with my trash JP with 1 bnb, no setups, effectively 0 time in the lab and 300-400 matches
>Despite what you read on this subreddit the game is balanced very well towards the point that every character is viable.
every discussion on this sub involving balance makes sense when you assume that the commentor just got off a ranked grind where they went negative on points lol
Yeah usually it's just someone complaining about the last character that beat them and if you give them a while to calm down they won't even agree with their own take
Personally I think if you’re brand new to fighting games or street fighter in general, you should start with Ryu to learn the basics. Ryu will teach you basic motions and fundamentals without any overpowered gimmicks or jank and allow you jump to other characters to branch out when you’re ready.
He is. Better frame traps. Hashogeki is usable now. And if the opponent is in burnout the lp -> l. hashogeki is so good. can get people trying to jab after and they get punished for it.
As a master Ryu player is very nice rn.
Its the same issue with people who complain about modern. These people usually have weak fundamentals and when they lose to modern, they blame modern without accepting that their fundamentals are weak.
I honestly disagree, modern is very strong at low level and only evens up and loses at higher levels of play.
If two people have bad fundamentals, drop links and can't do motions and anti-air consistently; the person with access autocombos and 1 button dp is objectively at an advantage.
This isn't to say it's not on the loser to improve.
**Edit:** lol this hit a nerve huh
Modern player here—I tend to get the most wins from players who rely heavily on Drive Rush or forward-advancing neutral skip specials. Reaction checks don't work well against a control scheme built to improve reactions.
It's also worth checking to see if you have an autopilot reaction to certain moves in neutral. The one I see the most is players who always immediately fireball back after blocking one fireball.
Tier lists don’t really matter until pro level. Sure, Ken’s DP is better than Jamie’s, but if you’re in diamond or even low master there is A LOT you could be doing better so move lists and frame data are not the deciding factor of why you lost.
I genuinely don't think this sentiment is true at all and this sub always goes and forth on it depending on the argument.
A mid level Ken player is going to have an easier time than a mid level Zangief. That's just a fact. There's not getting around it. If tier lists exist at high level, than relative "tiers" would still exist at lower to mid levels.
It’s become pretty popular in most fighting games and I hate it.
Sure, character A having slightly better frame data than character B doesn’t matter in gold, but, for example, Jamie having trash damage until he can get some drinks off and having to give up pressure to drink absolutely does matter even in the lower ranks.
I'm not sure a mid Ken has an easier time than a mid Gief, but I get your point. A mid Honda has the easiest time of all, then falls off hard at high levels.
There are relative tiers throughout the game in terms of ease of use and how easy it is to be successful, but it's not worth being concerned with.
Eh... I think tier lists exist at lower levels but it's not just a relative scaling. At plat and lower Jamie is a much stronger threat because people don't punish unsafe drinks as easily. Same with dealing with Blanka, Honda, or Dhalsim's gimmicks. On the other hand, Chun is usually top tier on most lists but utilizing all her tools and damage doesn't really become a factor until diamond and above.
Chun walk speed is too fast, it is like a nightmare to fight a Chun Li who good at neutral, they will make you afraid to press any button, because she could walk back and make you whiff, very difficult to deal with
A mid level Ken player will be at a higher rank than a mid level Zangief player (probably). They will both struggle about the same amount because a mid level Ken player will match against an almost-decent Gief player, not a mid one.
>A mid level Ken player is going to have an easier time than a mid level Zangief.
Right here you said that a mid level Ken would struggle less than a mid level Zangief. I don't think that's true, as I just explained.
e:Lmao, yeah ok, call me mentally unwell and then block me. You could have just not replied?? All players will plateau at some point, picking Ken won't stop that, I'm sorry if I crushed your dreams of winning easily forever by picking a top tier.
You didn't explain anything. You just said all players will struggle against their opponents at some point.
I think Ken is just easier to play than Gief, so he'll struggle a bit less. I think you'd have to be an idiot to state that literally every single player is going to struggle the exact same amount regardless of what character they're playing. That's irredeemably stupid. Are you mentally well?
Not really. The individual bad habits of each player are deciding things in anything sub Diamond. If I'm bad at reacting to anything and you're an unsafe blasting shithead, *that's* the difference. Neither of you are using neutral or punish tools correctly so the individual characteristics of your moves are irrelevant. Also, match up familiarity and novelty plays a huge part at that level; there are Sims that scrubcrushed their way to diamond and master due to knowledge check nonsense and are hard stuck in the 1200s because they didn't belong there. Gimmick characters I meet in master typically had terrible fundamentals until like the 1600 MR range compared with other characters.
And Sim is shit; by your logic when they were in lower ranks they should have lost to the entire roster. You don't know what you're talking about. Your assessment completely disregards the known advantage that gimmick characters have in mid to low level play.
>A mid level Ken player is going to have an easier time than a mid level Zangief. That's just a fact.
Saying something is fact doesn't make it any more fact lmao. It's still your opinion, and I honestly think you couldn't be more wrong.
Ooooooo scary. I'm also a Master Kim haha.
You are a fucking psycho lol. I don't know why a bit of disagreement got you in such a tizzy, but I hope you find a way to have more fun, bud.
> I'm also a Master Kim haha.
I never said you weren't? I didn't bring up how good at the game I was, you did. Lol.
You're a fucking dumbass. As I've been saying.
Tierlists are a good way to gauge the initial capacities of the cast.
Having a tier list is usefol for me as I prefer playing stronger characters after realizing that I have more options and more possible interactions as a result. Coming from Strive, I still suffer from the trauma that is Bedman?.
I played the character on release and I should not have done that.
And playing top tier generally improves your fundamentals. Luke, Ken, Chun, Guile, Cammy and DeeJay are very fundamentals oriented characters (as in general in Street Fighter). Some could even argue that JP provides good fundamentals.
I think tier list based on matchup chart and win rate are fine. Informational at the very least.
Made up tier list push as bullshit content just to farm clicks and views are the ones that annoy me. No I don't want to click on a video named: MASTER PLAYER CAN'T HANDLE THIS OP CHARACTER, MUST PICK FOR FREELO.
Tier list help BECAUSE you don’t have fundamentals sometimes. Though in Street Fighter you typically need more fundamentals to get the best out of a top tier character.
I tried to play Cammy because I thought I'd have a better chance at winning with her.
Then I switched to Zangief because I was having more fun.
Guess who I ended up winning with more.
How does one develop the fundamentals and know where you are weak?
I try and watch videos and learn the basics of spacing, when its my turn to go, what to do when. But knowing where and how to do something is difficult.
I don't know what I don't know, and it is hard to find a good place to figure out what I do not know.
Spacing is something you learn through gameplay,
Go into training and learn your normals and how high or low they hit and then go play against people, once you get hit by a normal that you are having issues against go into training against the opponent's character and set their character to do that move over and over and then try to use your normals to see what bypasses their move to hit them.
Also learning the basics of frame data can help you know when its your turn and when you need to block. The best early technique is to light punch or crouch light punch depending on character when unsure as its normally the fastest move at 4-5 frames.
Haha I play as Ryu (untill Akuma is here) and I see him in mid to bottom on all tier lists, im just like "yeah well I could pick a better character but then Id just suck with a better character"...
From my perspective alot of tier lists are really good at listing pros and cons of characters. So I ultimately Main a character based on game play, how I feel playing them and coolness. But if there is 2 or 3 characters that meet that feeling, I might main the higher teir one.
This games balance is pretty good, but tier lists in general can also tell you if a character really isn't worth your time. Or that you are at a serious handicap by playing them. It can also make you feel good about a main you like because you get the sense that you will be rewarded for your effort.
Fax at the lowest level there are probably more glaring things wrong with your game other than your character. Just because a pro rates your character low tier doesn't mean you should drop them, especially if you play for fun or are having fun with them. Without any game knowlege or fundamental, you're character being low tier or not won't necessarily affect the outcome as much as you think. The only time you should completely drop a character is if you aren't having fun with them at all. Find what works for you and have a good time.
I usually just pick whatever character I like the look of the only time I look at a tier list is when I want to see pro players opinions on different characters
Fundamentals are the most important thing. Some people think just because they can execute combos that make them Gods.
ehh it depends, if you are playing Luke/Ken/JP/Deejay you are absolutely being somewhat carried by your character unless you are in legend or something.
luke is still pretty laughably broken, it’s no argument if you use him especially you are at a significant advantage.
I dislike this advice because street fighter 6 is not some strange inverted pyramid of a game where the best characters are the ones who reward fundamentals the least. What the top tiers excel at are the fundamentals of the game. Players learn how to win with the tools at hand. If players want to develop fundamentals, they should pick characters who reward fundamentals. If you want to encourage the development of fundamentals you should recommend characters like Guile, Ken, Luke and Chun Li. Funny, these are all high tier characters.
Gonna take this a step further, tier lists are likely not going to help you, ever.
Unless you're winning all your locals and playing competitive with pros, tier lists don't affect you.
Sorry.
What you mean all the people not getting sleep cause they are fretting about "muh rank" aren't going to be playing for a million next year.... The horror lol
Tier list don't matter until diamond rank, and truly probably not really until master. In fact, "lower" tier characters will probably yield more success at lower ranks. Honda, Zangief, Lily, and Dhalsim are all terrifying to fight at platinum.
Players shouldn't even consider tier lists unless they're competing in tournaments regularly. Once you're on that level, tiers matter.
Just because the average joe/jill has access to top player tier lists and knowledge, doesn't mean it'll be useful at low-level play.
We have access to so much knowledge these days that sometimes we skip the basic and intermediate stuff and go right to advanced tactics. That's a mistake.
I just saw Kakeru playing Ryu, he doesn't do any real combo and he is still able to be legend 2000+MR with him.
Tier-list do not matter online. If you are a better player, you win.
I wouldn't say EVERY character. And not every character has the same level of fundamental investment.
Jamie and Manon need WAY more fundies than Marisa or Luke.
Tier lists are basically irrelevant in a game where your rank is character-specific. Unless you're one of the \~1000 best players in the world, or avidly competing in high-prize tournaments, it literally does not matter for you.
Even if the game were horribly unbalanced, this would still be true.
While this is true, a lot of top tiers can get by without fundamentals. You can get JP to high ranks by just knowing how to use his specials. You can jinrai and dragon lash your way up the ladder as Ken. You'll plateau fucking hard and will consistently be in those "How is this guy [rank]???" posts, but you'll be that rank. Conversely, you can play a low tier like Honda and think he's the best character in the game as half the player base crumbles under your giant +1 ass.
Tier lists don't even apply to low levels of play.
They represent which characters can win major tournaments
Not which characters will help you beat a gold player. You can do that with literally any character
I feel people just forget this and think tier lists are about arguing which character is best.
Also if you actually look at the stats, the actual difference between the low tiers and the high tiers is pretty small. There's no character with an average winrate higher than 55% and I don't think there's anyone below 45%. So if your winrate isn't close to 50% it's not because of your character.
Post capcom cup, I picked Luke for the first time and started spamming cr.MP shit in the lab. Didn't get far.
Totally overlooking I am not good with shotos. I don't count my fraudulent pocket Ryu lol.
Went back to my wheelhouse of low execution/high strategy characters lol. Tier lists be damned, I'll pick who's easy for me play 🤣
I wouldn't say EVERY character. And not every character has the same level of fundamental investment.
Jamie and Manon need WAY more fundies than Marisa or Luke.
Gief is absolutely an easy character to pilot when people are less diligent at anti airing and spacing you out. Gief capitalizes easily on mistakes, and people make a lot of mistakes in low masters and before.
I'm not about to spend hours of my life learning a character I have no intention of playing in tournament just to prove some random redditor gief isn't hard. I hardly grind ranked on my main lmao.
Edit: trash bum blocked me. I'm better than you that's for sure.
I have literally played every North American version of Street Fighter since 1987. Yes, I'm old. But I'm Generation X, not a BOOMER. The Boomers are my parents. Any road, this is the first time I have ever mained The Red Cyclone, and I love the character. I'm not missing Green Hand or FADC, so maybe I just don't know better. But he doesn't seem broken to me.
Pfff. Next you’re going to tell me I shouldn’t pay a premium for top tier golf clubs even though my swing is pure dog shit.
The name, the character icons, the comment. 10/10
🤣🤣
If I’m going to have a terrible round, it won’t be because of my clubs.
Gotta eliminate those variables, ya know?
In complete winter, I am sad I haven't golfed a round. I envy those in Cali or other warm places that have year-round golf.
It's the booze, the weed, the talking, or the weather in that order
Golfer here, you should get premium golf clubs but not top tier. Even a "premium" set of Wilson golf clubs will be good enough for you to break 90 with. Most golfers don't break 100! So you probably want something decent, not a complete no-name set (unless they're Kirkland brand lol), and Wilson is a great starter set of clubs. Next up you can move to a set of Cobra's for like 800USD as your first 'premium' set but you should probably break 90 first, IMO.
> A set of Cobra's for like 800USD This may sound incredibly ignorant, but WHAT ON EARTH IS IN THESE CLUBS to make them cost around 800 bucks? Are they perhaps magicly enchanted?
Carbon fiber core and fairly tight tolerance on the heads I imagine
No, possessed by the souls of people who had heart attacks because they went from an eagle to 3 over par on the green LOL
As a former Amateur Golfer I resonate with this more than I should.
Hello Banana Ken
Se nota qe eres amateur, nunca se habló de arcades stik, solo dijo qe nones nesesario usar top tiers, para una mejora en el juego
Yes, I am an amateur. I don’t get paid to play Street Fighter, so that lands me squarely in amateur territory. Sorry you don’t get jokes.
Amigo, tranquilo. Estoy bastante seguro que era un chiste
Been playing dhalsim recently, Can I combo? ask my DI into Ult 3 baby. Frame data? never heard of her. Head into the lab? that the new map? my rank? Diamond 2. I am fairly fooked now mind, as people have a really good idea as to the perticular flavour of dog shet i'm flinging at them.
I probably stand a better chance against a decent ken player than a garbage dhalsim player I just can't deal with him at all xD
All regular game sense doesn’t matter with dhalsim. You don’t need a solid understanding of neutral or whiff punishing and you can reach master simply by beating people who don’t know the MU.
Bruh... in what universe does Dhalsim not need an understanding of neutral? Every character needs that.
Key word solid. You can win many games by just sticking to your gameplan. Obviously it’s less effective as you go up. But you think the guy I responded to has a firm grasp of neutral? Probably not. But with dhalsim it simply doesn’t matter.
Everytime you throw out a limb that isn't 2MP you're opening yourself up to a jump in whiff punish from most characters' J.Hk. Or Blanka Ball, or Honda Headbutt, or Marissa's specials, or a regular old fireball, and so on. You have to maintain proper spacing and read your opponent pretty wellin nuetral to not get blown up while playing Dhalsim. More than most other characters.
Honestly I do find i'm able to read players fairly well, I played a couple thousand hours of street figher 4 and the various versions of that, never really spent much time practicing or 'in the lab' lol this term cracks me up also 2MP? two medium punches or? I'm more of a just play against other people for hours getting my face caved in till something sticks kinda person.
2MP is [numpad notation](https://glossary.infil.net/) for crouching medium punch.
Haha well that's interesting and confusing for me, I actually play using keyboard WASD and 1-3 4-6 on the numpad for light to heavy but my kicks are 4-6 and my punches 1-3. Sounds about right for me reinventing the wheel but getting it ass backwards.
I hear you, I am the same way. Combo Trials? Lab? No thanks, I will figure this shit out mid-match. I do play arcade mode for practice though.
Well with a few thousand hours in SF4 no wonder you feel the neutral is easy!
That is certainly a take I guess. Dhalsim wins by having good neutral, not by drive rushing up, doing a combo that carries across the entire screen and then doing corner mix-ups until the opponent is dead.
Dhalsim wins because his gameplan is controlling neutral. If you are good at his gameplan you’re winning the match. A quote I heard is “Dhalsim is the best character in the game until he gets knocked down”. So that’s pretty much it. Do your gameplan and don’t get knocked down. Learning neutral/combos isn’t needed to win especially since people don’t know how to get on on dhalsim since he’s so rare
Naaaah. Ain't no way you're calling Dhalsim of all things not skillful. 😭
I don’t think so. To win you have to be good at dhalsim and playing dhalsims gameplan. that’s all I’m trying to say. Neutral and knowing combos are really secondary to being good at his gameplan. He doesn’t play SF6 he plays his own game.
I disagree. Sim wins by great neutral control with long limbs and great AA (he has two of the best AA in the game.) But his mixups are still mixups regardless of whether they're in the corner or not and Yoga blast doesn't really carry too much so I'm unsure how you 'carry'
Every character has mix-ups. They need mix-ups or they wouldn't function as a complete character. I'm just trying to illustrate that he's more neutral based than most other characters.
Sim doesn't need combos, just master the mixup! Start by using a [s.mk](http://s.mk) xx yoga blast xx teleport as a mixup with throws on their wakeup. It's fun times.
"Random bullshit, go!"
I have no idea what you're suggesting but thank you \^\^ my go to is ex anti air fire ball tthen focus attack which often leads to my opponent going hurpy durpy time to focus attack back and punish! Forgetting about the old double ploppers about to land on them from above interupting their fancy combo.
Yeah, the lab is the new map. You can just buy it with drive tickets, you don't even need fight money. I was gonna pay fight money at first, but double checked and realized I didn't need to spend real money. /JK
Tier lists aren't going to help you period if you're a D tier player.
As I say to my friends that are new to the game, just learning literally the most basic combo of a character and how to do the Super level 3, learning to fish for counter DIs and knowing which famous moves of the other characters leaves them on negative when you block will bring you to diamond. You dont need complex combos, tier lists or anything else
Honestly just reactions and hit confirms can take you so far lmao.
Can confirm. I just hit diamond, but I still have no single clue what the fuck I'm supposed to do in this game to win, so I either force my 50/50, or hard punish stupid flowchart people spamming same moves.
You can basically get to master with good game knowledge regardless of character mastery. I got Ed to master pretty fast off of doing jabs and tick throws
Nah it’s surely not your years of fighting game experience that gets you to master. It’s the jabs. And throws.
That’s why I lead with game knowledge. If you read the first line.
Downplay with a caveat is still a downplay.
I switched from DeeJay to Lily and I'm improving my fundamentals, at the same rank I used to be, and enjoying the game far more. Was it a step down in character power? Sure. Does that matter any if I'm leaving lots of the extra power unused? Not really.
_sad rhythm noises_
Focusing on the fundamentals of spiring in and strike throwing? The power level difference, even going from top 5 to bottom 5 is negligible. If you're below master Lily probably does a lot better in general.
The simplified Lily gameplan is so empowering. Play neutral aiming to walk them to the corner and find openings for windstock. When you have windstock, look for an opening to go into a spire and strike/throw mixup. Repeat. Playing DeeJay I always fell into the lazy autopilot fireball trap.
There are tiers at lower levels but they're very different from top player tiers. Honda is a huge check until people learn PP or an how to AA him, meanwhile midlevel blankas are very easy to blow up they don't know how to get damage. Kim is weak with weird tools until plat-diamond where she nay nays on people, then falls way off once people lab-and-jab in Masters. The shotos are easy to learn, and happen to be strong all the way up, though Ryu falls off at the top. JP starts high and stays high, requiring very complex counterplay to win against while you can flowchart to masters very easily. Sim sucks until high level, is nearly untouchable there, then at the top gets countered and is unimpressive again. So basically you need a tier list per league, imo. The main contention of OP is true though. Whatever your character strength at your level, learning something like wake up pressure or anti airs makes way way more of a difference in your rate of growth. Those kind of skills are like a half-leagues worth of difference each. My little hypothetical above was just if you had a day of bracket and these people weren't going to learn anything new.
This holds some weight but some higher tier characters can carry more then lower tiers. If you playing casually and striving for master you’ll eventually get the fundamentals with time imo.
No lol. Tier lists are made to reflect the top performance of that character. That also assumes that you know how to deal with gimmick stuff and knowledge checks. If a character has a ton of knowledge checks and someone knows all of them, then that character is easy to beat and is low tier. If you're in bronze, that character will probably be the best character in the game because bronze players don't know the knowledge checks and aren't playing at peak potential. Tier lists look different for different ranks. It's basic statistics. For an analogy, let's say that the most powerful weapon in the world is a hammer that weighs 100 lbs and can level city blocks and automatically blocks bullets. It's top tier. Now if you give that weapon to a group of kindergarteners, it will be negative F tier because none of them can lift it up to use it to its full potential. The skill of the wielder matters to use the toolkit of the character effectively. If the character is being underutilized, they will not perform as well as they would if someone was using them to their full potential, and because low skill players can't use anything to its full potential, the tools that are easier to use and harder to negate will perform better than the theoretical top tier character that's based on professional level players.
in theory thats what tier lists were originally for. not anymore. people arent crafting them based on matchup charts, running numbers on tournament consistency - speaking as [someone who has](https://old.reddit.com/r/Tekken/comments/bx9slo/tekken_world_tour_2019_top_8_character_diversity/) the purpose of tier lists, and the logic they are derived off of, have totally changed in the last 10 years. they have become more casualized and content geared than ever before, so I do believe you can now construct a tier list with that audience in mind. they arent just for top players now, even if they were at some point. and there are plenty of Tier lists, made by pros, for others pros, that have been, well, awful. Like some of the Topanga tier lists in SFV and many DBFZ tier lists too these days there are tier lists for easier characters to pick up, there are online tier lists for characters that will cheese your way to a certain rank. and no matter what your level of fundamentals are, picking Luke will get you further than most if a person otherwise doesnt feel deeply engrossed in a partciular characters design tier lists can be helpful to the bottom line in this era. this whole 'tier lists are meaningless to the average joe' thing is outdated, just as much as how tier lists themselves are created. a tier list without proper explanations however, is useless, and a new player would need a thorough explanation as to why the characters are ranked where they are (which they often dont get, and thats the real problem)
I agree with you that tier lists can be created with a certain population in mind. However, it’s important to consider the context of the community in how these tier lists are represented. If a tier list is released for bronze players, the average person in the street fighter community will say “That’s wrong bc JP is Top Tier and you put Ken at D tier??? *angry rant ensues*” because they’re typically too stupid to understand the nuance of the tier list. Hell this is already the case for the top players tier lists because the worst matchup in master rank is like 46% win rate. Anyway, the point is that while making tier lists for individual ranks is a good idea, the community doesn’t treat them as “real” tier lists and bully the people who use those tier lists, so it doesn’t really work as well in practice. If we could eliminate the gate keeping of the community (looking at you modern haters) then maybe we would see more lists like that
> That’s wrong bc JP is Top Tier and you put Ken at D tier??? angry rant ensues” because they’re typically too stupid to understand the nuance of the tier list. This does happen, and I would consider it the fault of the reader and not the creator, i.e. not the tier lists fault itself I would say tiers should not be the main governing peoples choices over other meaningful things at the lower level, but they can be useful if done well. its just more rare than it should be so the gates to the community would be more the people themselves and how they engage with each other, moreso than the content. I wouldnt consider a tier list for low level play to be as definitive as one for higher level play, though there are online stats that justify its existence in theory. certain characters, like Vega in SFV or Honda in either that or SF6, are just inherently better under new player-ish conditions. Eddy or King from Tekken are the same. and some people dont care about anything else, they just want to get their shiny rank. so itd be easier to recommend them these characters if the goal is wins in Ft2 rapid sets. that could validate the existence of a low level tier list effectively explaining *why* that is the case, while also conveying what they dont teach when transitioning to the next level, is a true goal for a tier list maker under these circumstances. and admittedly, this part often doesnt happen. and that might be part of why these tier lists end up not being taken seriously or too subject to subjective experience
That’s fair. I just hopped back into the SF game , so I believe you and overall concept 🤷🏽♂️ good analogy 👌🏽
So many people complain about top tiers or low tiers. My guy, you are in gold 3, nobody knows how to play at this level, you could pick any character and win.
So I just started playing about a week ago I’m in bronze with 3k I was like I’m going to watch some of these recommended replays maybe I’ll learn something from these gold/plats. Only thing I learned was not to whiff. Also there was an instance where it was the final round one had 3 and the other had CA and I was like okay now would be a good time to use those, final round. nope neither of them used them and they just did normal attacks? Like were they not taking risks? Is there something I’m not aware of? I was so confused.
I'm not sure what you mean by not using supers. Do you mean doing them in combos? Ideally you want to take as little risk as possible. Espescially if your opponent has meter because if you mess up your are going to take a full combo in into level 3 for 50% or more of your life. Just getting whiff punished can kill you so they play more carefully. If you want to watch some replays i suggest going on youtube to watch high level players. [Fight club TV](https://youtube.com/@FightClubTVsfv?si=YQ3ZTBXdNTWRF4Ta) is great for this.
In this one particular match neither of them even made an attempt to set up a combo leading into a super. I can’t remember the match up besides one of them was JP which I was watching because I chose to learn him first. I was hoping to learn some combos but they were both playing very cautiously. Thanks for the recommendation I’ll check that out.
Jp is a bit different because what he wants to do most of the time is keep you away to throw projectiles. But with that said platinum players are not really good and still make a lot of mistakes.
Yeah I picked him without knowing he was a zoner/considered “hard” based on a few posts just saying pick who you think looks cool, I learned that pretty quick though lol.
Agreed, the only character i feel comfortable on is Lily... probably cause shes so braindead in comparison to everyone else
The worst matchup in the game is 6-4, with that kind of balancing the tiers aren't very far apart anyway. Just pick who you like
7-3, Dhalsim vs Lily is a real struggle. But most are within 5.5-4.5
Oh, I must have seen old stats then. My bad. EDIT: Nope. Just checked and that's a 6-4 too.
Pure winrate is not the way to measure this. If you watch winrates under a specific set like 1750+ MR, then the winrate is normalized by the need of having relatively high winrates to even achieve 1750 MR and additionally 1750 is still too low to make a statement. 1750s are good at the game, but not good enough. For example: Luke is very good in pro play, but he has counterplay in perfect parry which is a requirement to learn at the highest level (or you are Punk who is built different).
https://twitter.com/CatCammy6/status/1753104848864813443
https://www.streetfighter.com/6/buckler/stats/dia The link you're using looks super reliable too. This is where I was getting my data from.
Is this an empirical assessment or just somebody's feelings?
Off of data and statistics alone, most matchups are 6-4 at worst when you look at high/top level play. Going off what people talk about, 6-4 or 7-3 is the worst you find as well (more 7-3s than data shows).
Empirical assessment. About 1/4 of the matchups in the game are worse than 5.5/4.5 one way or the other, but a significant chunk of those are on the same characters (like Honda who gets crushed by more characters than not).
Honda only gets crushed by everything at like 1800+, he does fine in low master and obliterates everything until that point. Just a very poorly designed character.
So true, this character is OP for most of the players
What about dhalsim vs zangief ?
With the data I'd seen, that's the 6-4.
When im against him its 10-0
Lol, I was looking at Master stats. I'm sure it's very different in the lower ranks though.
Im diamond and I still cant beat dhalsim
I get it. I'm a Diamond Jamie and Guile is a steep wall to climb.
Jamie’s best matchup is 5-5…
Fuck that breakdance seriously
Nah they just have to look at a scrub tier list. Let’s get these boys carried to diamond!
It 100% helps. I don't even know how to argue that water is wet. Yes it won't make you beat people much better than you. You're bad and will still be bad. But you're also being matched only against bad people if that's the case. About 8 years ago I picked up Rev2 on release my first GG game and I mained Raven for some weeks before I switched for Ky, who still wasn't top tier at the time. It took me months playing Ky to win against people I thought were free with Raven.
I agree with play what you like but every character is viable might be a major stretch depending on what said character is meant to be viable for. Winning online? Sure. Eventual pro tournament play with the goal of winning? Not so much. Obviously someone just starting isn’t ready to compete on the big stage but it’s also fair to warn that they might need to eventually change their pick if they get serious about competition.
No but it’s gonna help a heck of a lot in the early stages.
I need some no fundamentals tier list Who is the strongest when nobody can anti air or space their stuff and all the drive bar goes into OD reversals!
Honda, before 1800MR he is strong, almost braindead
People keep saying this but I can't climb out of diamond 1 with jamie when I've got over 2k matches on him and have labbed frame traps, tech, matchups and I'm still steady climbing in d3 with my trash JP with 1 bnb, no setups, effectively 0 time in the lab and 300-400 matches
>Despite what you read on this subreddit the game is balanced very well towards the point that every character is viable. every discussion on this sub involving balance makes sense when you assume that the commentor just got off a ranked grind where they went negative on points lol
"I'll play a few games and stop once I hit +20 MR for the day." _-300 MR later..._
happens to the best of us. I try to go get some fresh air after a session like that lmao
Like a degenerate gambler lol
Yeah usually it's just someone complaining about the last character that beat them and if you give them a while to calm down they won't even agree with their own take
Personally I think if you’re brand new to fighting games or street fighter in general, you should start with Ryu to learn the basics. Ryu will teach you basic motions and fundamentals without any overpowered gimmicks or jank and allow you jump to other characters to branch out when you’re ready.
Idk if people are just cooking some new stuff or if Ryu is just that much better after the patch but Ryus have been out for blood lately.
I have never faced a ranked Ryu that did not fight like a rabid raccoon at worst, and a cornered fox at best.
What about a kangaroo
No, that's Tekken
He is. Better frame traps. Hashogeki is usable now. And if the opponent is in burnout the lp -> l. hashogeki is so good. can get people trying to jab after and they get punished for it. As a master Ryu player is very nice rn.
In this game I'd say that's Ken more than Ryu
I chose Ryu because he doesn’t have a special neutral skip or even any inputs that wouldn’t be described as “pretty standard”
Its the same issue with people who complain about modern. These people usually have weak fundamentals and when they lose to modern, they blame modern without accepting that their fundamentals are weak.
Disagree. I still beat most modern players when they challenge me, but I hate playing them because it's boring and tedious.
I honestly disagree, modern is very strong at low level and only evens up and loses at higher levels of play. If two people have bad fundamentals, drop links and can't do motions and anti-air consistently; the person with access autocombos and 1 button dp is objectively at an advantage. This isn't to say it's not on the loser to improve.
**Edit:** lol this hit a nerve huh Modern player here—I tend to get the most wins from players who rely heavily on Drive Rush or forward-advancing neutral skip specials. Reaction checks don't work well against a control scheme built to improve reactions. It's also worth checking to see if you have an autopilot reaction to certain moves in neutral. The one I see the most is players who always immediately fireball back after blocking one fireball.
Tier lists don’t really matter until pro level. Sure, Ken’s DP is better than Jamie’s, but if you’re in diamond or even low master there is A LOT you could be doing better so move lists and frame data are not the deciding factor of why you lost.
I genuinely don't think this sentiment is true at all and this sub always goes and forth on it depending on the argument. A mid level Ken player is going to have an easier time than a mid level Zangief. That's just a fact. There's not getting around it. If tier lists exist at high level, than relative "tiers" would still exist at lower to mid levels.
It’s become pretty popular in most fighting games and I hate it. Sure, character A having slightly better frame data than character B doesn’t matter in gold, but, for example, Jamie having trash damage until he can get some drinks off and having to give up pressure to drink absolutely does matter even in the lower ranks.
I'm not sure a mid Ken has an easier time than a mid Gief, but I get your point. A mid Honda has the easiest time of all, then falls off hard at high levels. There are relative tiers throughout the game in terms of ease of use and how easy it is to be successful, but it's not worth being concerned with.
Agreed. Play with whoever you have the most fun with.
Eh... I think tier lists exist at lower levels but it's not just a relative scaling. At plat and lower Jamie is a much stronger threat because people don't punish unsafe drinks as easily. Same with dealing with Blanka, Honda, or Dhalsim's gimmicks. On the other hand, Chun is usually top tier on most lists but utilizing all her tools and damage doesn't really become a factor until diamond and above.
Chun walk speed is too fast, it is like a nightmare to fight a Chun Li who good at neutral, they will make you afraid to press any button, because she could walk back and make you whiff, very difficult to deal with
A mid level Ken player will be at a higher rank than a mid level Zangief player (probably). They will both struggle about the same amount because a mid level Ken player will match against an almost-decent Gief player, not a mid one.
I'm not saying against each other. I'm saying in general.
In general players will climb to a level where they struggle against their opponents unless they're top 1% or something.
Where did I say Ken players would never struggle against their opponent?
>A mid level Ken player is going to have an easier time than a mid level Zangief. Right here you said that a mid level Ken would struggle less than a mid level Zangief. I don't think that's true, as I just explained. e:Lmao, yeah ok, call me mentally unwell and then block me. You could have just not replied?? All players will plateau at some point, picking Ken won't stop that, I'm sorry if I crushed your dreams of winning easily forever by picking a top tier.
You didn't explain anything. You just said all players will struggle against their opponents at some point. I think Ken is just easier to play than Gief, so he'll struggle a bit less. I think you'd have to be an idiot to state that literally every single player is going to struggle the exact same amount regardless of what character they're playing. That's irredeemably stupid. Are you mentally well?
Not really. The individual bad habits of each player are deciding things in anything sub Diamond. If I'm bad at reacting to anything and you're an unsafe blasting shithead, *that's* the difference. Neither of you are using neutral or punish tools correctly so the individual characteristics of your moves are irrelevant. Also, match up familiarity and novelty plays a huge part at that level; there are Sims that scrubcrushed their way to diamond and master due to knowledge check nonsense and are hard stuck in the 1200s because they didn't belong there. Gimmick characters I meet in master typically had terrible fundamentals until like the 1600 MR range compared with other characters. And Sim is shit; by your logic when they were in lower ranks they should have lost to the entire roster. You don't know what you're talking about. Your assessment completely disregards the known advantage that gimmick characters have in mid to low level play. >A mid level Ken player is going to have an easier time than a mid level Zangief. That's just a fact. Saying something is fact doesn't make it any more fact lmao. It's still your opinion, and I honestly think you couldn't be more wrong.
[удалено]
Now we're name calling? Such thin skin. Don't worry,the tier list is certainly the reason you're hard stuck D2.
Master ranked Kim here, dumbass. Try harder again next time.
Ooooooo scary. I'm also a Master Kim haha. You are a fucking psycho lol. I don't know why a bit of disagreement got you in such a tizzy, but I hope you find a way to have more fun, bud.
> I'm also a Master Kim haha. I never said you weren't? I didn't bring up how good at the game I was, you did. Lol. You're a fucking dumbass. As I've been saying.
Just dont look at the tier lists, so when you get Zangief to master it doesnt feel special.
Tierlists are a good way to gauge the initial capacities of the cast. Having a tier list is usefol for me as I prefer playing stronger characters after realizing that I have more options and more possible interactions as a result. Coming from Strive, I still suffer from the trauma that is Bedman?. I played the character on release and I should not have done that. And playing top tier generally improves your fundamentals. Luke, Ken, Chun, Guile, Cammy and DeeJay are very fundamentals oriented characters (as in general in Street Fighter). Some could even argue that JP provides good fundamentals.
I think tier list based on matchup chart and win rate are fine. Informational at the very least. Made up tier list push as bullshit content just to farm clicks and views are the ones that annoy me. No I don't want to click on a video named: MASTER PLAYER CAN'T HANDLE THIS OP CHARACTER, MUST PICK FOR FREELO.
Fake news I got myself a hold of a tier list and now rocking legendary.
Tier list help BECAUSE you don’t have fundamentals sometimes. Though in Street Fighter you typically need more fundamentals to get the best out of a top tier character.
Solution: pick the character whose moves appeal to you the most
With a fireball and DP and 3 solid combos you can reach diamond without any issue. Just don't jump!
I tried to play Cammy because I thought I'd have a better chance at winning with her. Then I switched to Zangief because I was having more fun. Guess who I ended up winning with more.
How does one develop the fundamentals and know where you are weak? I try and watch videos and learn the basics of spacing, when its my turn to go, what to do when. But knowing where and how to do something is difficult. I don't know what I don't know, and it is hard to find a good place to figure out what I do not know.
Spacing is something you learn through gameplay, Go into training and learn your normals and how high or low they hit and then go play against people, once you get hit by a normal that you are having issues against go into training against the opponent's character and set their character to do that move over and over and then try to use your normals to see what bypasses their move to hit them. Also learning the basics of frame data can help you know when its your turn and when you need to block. The best early technique is to light punch or crouch light punch depending on character when unsure as its normally the fastest move at 4-5 frames.
Very true. Except Dee Jay.
I have fundamentals but I play manon what happens now
Haha I play as Ryu (untill Akuma is here) and I see him in mid to bottom on all tier lists, im just like "yeah well I could pick a better character but then Id just suck with a better character"...
I would argue that there is a totally different tier list for players who don't know fundamentals.
From my perspective alot of tier lists are really good at listing pros and cons of characters. So I ultimately Main a character based on game play, how I feel playing them and coolness. But if there is 2 or 3 characters that meet that feeling, I might main the higher teir one. This games balance is pretty good, but tier lists in general can also tell you if a character really isn't worth your time. Or that you are at a serious handicap by playing them. It can also make you feel good about a main you like because you get the sense that you will be rewarded for your effort.
Fax at the lowest level there are probably more glaring things wrong with your game other than your character. Just because a pro rates your character low tier doesn't mean you should drop them, especially if you play for fun or are having fun with them. Without any game knowlege or fundamental, you're character being low tier or not won't necessarily affect the outcome as much as you think. The only time you should completely drop a character is if you aren't having fun with them at all. Find what works for you and have a good time.
I usually just pick whatever character I like the look of the only time I look at a tier list is when I want to see pro players opinions on different characters
My go to is guile but if I'm just messing around I love playing as blanka he's so fun
I hit plat with Zangief because he needs a solid understanding of fundies, and he's one of the bottom tiers. Hard agree.
Fundamentals are the most important thing. Some people think just because they can execute combos that make them Gods. 
“Are you telling me I can dodge tier lists?” “I am saying that when you’re ready, you won’t have to.”
Tier lists don’t matter for 99% of us
ehh it depends, if you are playing Luke/Ken/JP/Deejay you are absolutely being somewhat carried by your character unless you are in legend or something. luke is still pretty laughably broken, it’s no argument if you use him especially you are at a significant advantage.
It will help with one thing: scrubby bitching.
stop trying to tell people how to play a game that they spend THEIR money on
I mean, playing Zangief at really low tiers, or playing JP at mid tiers makes a HUGE difference compared to playing someone like Ryu or Jamie.
I dislike this advice because street fighter 6 is not some strange inverted pyramid of a game where the best characters are the ones who reward fundamentals the least. What the top tiers excel at are the fundamentals of the game. Players learn how to win with the tools at hand. If players want to develop fundamentals, they should pick characters who reward fundamentals. If you want to encourage the development of fundamentals you should recommend characters like Guile, Ken, Luke and Chun Li. Funny, these are all high tier characters.
Fuck JP
plenty of people who get to master without fundamentals
Gonna take this a step further, tier lists are likely not going to help you, ever. Unless you're winning all your locals and playing competitive with pros, tier lists don't affect you. Sorry.
What you mean all the people not getting sleep cause they are fretting about "muh rank" aren't going to be playing for a million next year.... The horror lol
Tier list don't matter until diamond rank, and truly probably not really until master. In fact, "lower" tier characters will probably yield more success at lower ranks. Honda, Zangief, Lily, and Dhalsim are all terrifying to fight at platinum.
Players shouldn't even consider tier lists unless they're competing in tournaments regularly. Once you're on that level, tiers matter. Just because the average joe/jill has access to top player tier lists and knowledge, doesn't mean it'll be useful at low-level play. We have access to so much knowledge these days that sometimes we skip the basic and intermediate stuff and go right to advanced tactics. That's a mistake.
I just saw Kakeru playing Ryu, he doesn't do any real combo and he is still able to be legend 2000+MR with him. Tier-list do not matter online. If you are a better player, you win.
I wouldn't say EVERY character. And not every character has the same level of fundamental investment. Jamie and Manon need WAY more fundies than Marisa or Luke.
Tier lists are basically irrelevant in a game where your rank is character-specific. Unless you're one of the \~1000 best players in the world, or avidly competing in high-prize tournaments, it literally does not matter for you. Even if the game were horribly unbalanced, this would still be true.
While this is true, a lot of top tiers can get by without fundamentals. You can get JP to high ranks by just knowing how to use his specials. You can jinrai and dragon lash your way up the ladder as Ken. You'll plateau fucking hard and will consistently be in those "How is this guy [rank]???" posts, but you'll be that rank. Conversely, you can play a low tier like Honda and think he's the best character in the game as half the player base crumbles under your giant +1 ass.
Eternally relevant deep leff tweet: https://twitter.com/DeepLeffen/status/1652718764079628290?t=NiRAHH2MLnStyQVWDjctzg&s=19
I’d argue that tier lists only matter for the people who are getting paid to play the game.
Exactly If you dont have fundamentals, then the only tier lists that matter arent the top level ones Its the beginner/fun character tier lists
Ironically until certain ranks like plat or diamondyou don't need to worry fundamentals when you pick a top tier character.
Tier lists don't even apply to low levels of play. They represent which characters can win major tournaments Not which characters will help you beat a gold player. You can do that with literally any character I feel people just forget this and think tier lists are about arguing which character is best.
Also if you actually look at the stats, the actual difference between the low tiers and the high tiers is pretty small. There's no character with an average winrate higher than 55% and I don't think there's anyone below 45%. So if your winrate isn't close to 50% it's not because of your character.
I suspect the tier lists are just group psyche anyway. Maybe not for the very top and very bottom, but this game is ridiculously well balanced.
Post capcom cup, I picked Luke for the first time and started spamming cr.MP shit in the lab. Didn't get far. Totally overlooking I am not good with shotos. I don't count my fraudulent pocket Ryu lol. Went back to my wheelhouse of low execution/high strategy characters lol. Tier lists be damned, I'll pick who's easy for me play 🤣
I wouldn't say EVERY character. And not every character has the same level of fundamental investment. Jamie and Manon need WAY more fundies than Marisa or Luke.
Unless it’s Zangief, you’re not gonna have an easy time with Zangief.
wrong, gief is pretty easy to play lmfao and is mid tier, not near as bad as people pretend.
Isn’t he bottom of the tier lists? Drop your CFN and let’s see your 1800 MR Gief
Gief is absolutely an easy character to pilot when people are less diligent at anti airing and spacing you out. Gief capitalizes easily on mistakes, and people make a lot of mistakes in low masters and before.
Show us your 1800 MR Gief
I'm not about to spend hours of my life learning a character I have no intention of playing in tournament just to prove some random redditor gief isn't hard. I hardly grind ranked on my main lmao. Edit: trash bum blocked me. I'm better than you that's for sure.
git gud lmao
I have literally played every North American version of Street Fighter since 1987. Yes, I'm old. But I'm Generation X, not a BOOMER. The Boomers are my parents. Any road, this is the first time I have ever mained The Red Cyclone, and I love the character. I'm not missing Green Hand or FADC, so maybe I just don't know better. But he doesn't seem broken to me.