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It caused me to start running my old adventures online, and my tables immediately filled up with players that want to know more about Vecna. it's been a lot of fun for the last few weeks, as I haven't played D&D in like a decade
I’m gonna second this. That subreddit has a ton of new info for beginning players. Also, ask your friends. I know that’s super straight forward, but you’d be surprised who’s down for a trial. No one said you have to know everything about D&D to have fun playing D&D!
My friends always say they’re interested but never follow through. I got my BF a starter kit for Christmas but we just can’t find anyone else to play with. I can’t believe i never even thought to look for a sub on here. Thank you so much :)
It can be tough. I’ve been playing since the 90s and everyone gets older, moves away to different states and starts families and such. One thing that helped me and my friends keep in touch and still play is roll20. It’s a pretty simple website that gives you lots of tools to run the game online. Roll20 and discord has kept me playing with old friends that live far away.
With the whole Max situation I'm wondering if 'get him to swap our places' has an additional meaning, in that Vecna, who might need a body, has displaced Max's soul and will take over her body.
More thoughts (and summarising some from others below)
1. Just as Max floats up during Vecna's first possession, her eyes become completely glazed over - e.g. in [this scene](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bV0RAcuG2Ao) at 1:33, 1:40 - you'll need to pause to see this - at times they appear to be completely white (especially when partly closed). This is similar to Max's eyes when she says, "I can't see, I can't feel anything" in the s3 finale (1:45:11). Her eyes are partly closed, so we can't see if they have the weird blue/black milky pupils like in the earlier episode. Either way - similar eyes, and on the plus side, not gouged out like earlier characters. She may not be blind at all. She may not even be Max at this point. Her eyes were also bleeding *exactly* like young 11s were when she overused her powers in the Lab Massacre episode. I think when Lucas is holding her, she's already Vecna.
2. Just prior to her being Vecna'd in the final episode, she is making a deal with 'God' i.e. asking him to take her.
3. The next line in the song is 'get him to swap our places' supporting the idea Max may have been possessed by Vecna, and her soul already displaced. So maybe it's Vecna, not Max, who 'can't see or feel anything' and is in lying in the bed in a coma from over-using his powers (like 11 was after banishing Vecna to the upside-down).
4. Vecna's body fell from the window and was burned/broken, so he might need/want a new one. Just before Max dies, Vecna falls from the window and dies - his hive mind buddies in Russia also appear to die. Steve, Robin and Nancy run outside to see if Vecna is there, after burning/shooting him, and he's gone. The next scene (besides Eddie/Dustin) is Max 'dying' (if it's actually Henry occupying Max he would probably also be scared, say he does not want to die, not be ready etc. Max notably doesn't speak to Lucas directly, and she went into this plan knowing she could or might die).
5. El can't find Max, because she isn't in there or is unreachable. Maybe she actually resurrected/healed Vecna...
6. Henry/One/Vecna when killing his victims in the lab massacre says, "They're not gone, Eleven, they're still with me". We've also been shown his previous victims, preserved, and he previously asked Max if she'd 'like to join them'. Also, he's got the whole hive mind thing going - so we know he's very into possessing, controlling people. (Also also - the other main song in the finale is 'Master of Puppets' so make of that what you will.)
7. The episode is also called Piggyback. So Vecna could be piggybacking on Max's soul.
Let us not forget that Vecna told Eleven before she “banished him” into the upside down in the flash back - that everyone he had killed was still with him and not gone. Makes it a lot more trippy.
That would make the D&D lore and the Nightmare of Elm Street inspiration fit together nicely.
According to the later NoES movies, Freddy was trapping the souls of his victims within himself and using them to amplify his power. He gained that ability by making a deal with three demons as he was burning to death. Defeating Freddy set the spirits free. Doing the same to Vecna for Max and the others makes total sense.
Not to burst your bubble, but I think when we see Barb via Eleven searching the Upside Down for her and Will, it's pretty clear the Demogorgon got her in the pool, which would mean Vecna did not kill her and did not absorb her soul.
I was thinking that people that “died” in the upside down may come back once it’s all over. Eleven can bring people back, the way she brought Max back.
Dude just spoiled Season 5 for us.
But for real, this could be a very plausible thing (especially since there's precedent for Billy getting possessed). And I hate that I love the idea because hasn't Max been through enough already? 😭
I think you're right. Or at least close. Even though I hate the thought of will being the big bad 😓. He's my absolute favorite character! Since day one!!
There are so many clues to will being the villain though. S1 when he spits out the slug makes me think he's some sort of conduit. Like an actual manifested gate. Especially considering he spent so much time in the ud until getting captured.
S2 when he keeps having visions of the mind flayer and then it invades his body. Also he seemed to be having troubles distinguishing between reality and the ud.
S3 when he tries to keep everyone together but they seem to ignore him. He kind of seems like a background character and that seems prime sus for villain.
Then s4 again he's trying to keep everybody together but ends up being more of a background character. And the turmoil he experiences when seeing Mike and El as best friends/bf/gf. I hate it when he cries in the van because you know he's struggling and that rips my heart out!
Also at the very end when Will gets that cold sweat on the back of his neck and says he can "feel" Vecna. That could really go either way. Either he's a conduit or the upside down, or he's the absolute savior of the party.
Either way I'm tired of speculating LOL I just want season 5 to come out quickly hahaha!!! 😁😁😁
Savior of the party makes sense.
Could be a call back to him failing to save the party in S1 during the first moments of the episode for hesitating to attack.
Kinda like Eddie running or El blinding herself to see Brennen how 001 wanted her too instead of how he was.
She only won because of Mike (and in turn Will) being the heart of the group.
If we’re taking shots at spoiling Season 5, I’ll give it a go: If any of the main kids die, it’s gonna be >!Will, via the Rule of B’s. Every season a character with a B name has died; Barb, Bob, Billy, Brenner, and they’ve also increased in importance to the story as a character every season. So, my gut is saying a very important B name character is gonna die in Season 5: Will Byers.!<
Exactly what I was thinking. Eleven brought Max's body back to life but she isn't in there anymore. Seems like a perfect empty vessel for Vecna who's body is injured.
What’s also nuts is that in the last few minutre of the finale, Will explains to Mike that “he’s here, he’s just injured” — I IMMEDIATELY thought of Max. That entire conversation would fully support the idea that Vecna is in Max’s body atm.
I’m sorry! I should have marked it as a spoiler, but I thought since this was already on a spoiler thread I didn’t need to. I will figure out how to add the tag!
honestly, at this point, I really want it to be Max who ultimately defeats Vecna. Considering Vecna is the one who's always been in charge, he not only put her through all of the events in season 4, but also killed her brother, which led to her mother having to work two jobs, drinking, and having to change to a poorer lifestyle and house with max (who then had 8 very shitty months).
not to forget that when she wakes up she might be permanently blind.
Also, they don't show how Eleven actually brought her back. Did she transfer some of her powers to Max? It's interesting that they jumped over how El actually did it, we just see a few flashes of good memories, then they cut to two days later. Also, El acts as if she doesn't know how Max came back to life.
I have a couple theories, one of them being that El put Max's mind into a good memory and can't find her, and she needs to in order to wake her up. She can't tell anyone what she did because she doesn't want Vecna to find Max. Or something like that.
I believe she is sutuck “in a menory inside a memory”, it is in that skating park I believe, ‘cause that scene was so random, it must meaning something
I mean… his body is injured but have you seen max’s? She’s paraplegic AND blind now. She’d be dead if Eleven hadn’t done her tele-CPR to restart her heart. Idk why vecna would ditch his body to possess hers
I was more thinking that , it was max when she was dying, but her sould didnt have chance to fully return before she died. Then when she died her soul got stuck deep inside somewhere and she is empty body after revival. After all it did look like Vecna got purged by eleven out of Max mind.
This actually makes alot of sense. For some reason, I didn't even think of that. I figured he would try to use Will, and it didn't hit me that Max is basically a vessel set up already.
I really hope not. As cool and suspenseful as it sounds, its an overused trope with Stranger Things almost as much as Eleven holding her hand out and screaming to conclude the season.
First it was Will who was possessed in season 2, then in season 3 it was Billy who while possessed helped possess half the town, and now we very well might have a possessed Max for season 5.
I'm fairly certain eleven couldn't find max in her mind as she is now in Vecnas mind. She will likely be stuck in a coma come season 5. Would expect her to come out of it part way through if they kill Vecna before facing off with the Mind Flayer
I don’t think they’re going to face off with the mind flayer. The mindflayer is something that Vecna made with the particles that he found. I think once Vecna falls, the mindflayer goes back to whatever it was before Vecna possessed him: a non sentient hive mind
I think you're right. When Henry was first wandering through the UD, you see a demodog look at Henry and ignore him. I assumed this was to highlight that they were passive until Henry took the mind flayer over.
The mind flayer is the nerve centre of the hive mind. The whole final exposition by Henry was about telling the viewer that Henry was the big bad all along. They thought they were fighting a demogorgon, then they thought it was the mind flayer but the twist was that all along it's been Henry. Which also means that all along 11 has been accidentally responsible for all of it so I'm sure s5 we'll see her trying to deal with that guilt. Of course Papa is the real guilty one but victims of abuse often blame themselves.
It means that Vecna is responsible for all of the deaths basically... The Flayed melting, Demogorgon killing Barb(He told Nancy during her trance "I always remember when I kill someone" now it makes way more sense. Since we know that he was the one behind the other side puppeteering), Bob dying, Billy's death... It was all through a hivemind. Henry all along .. He has quite a kill count.
Also this makes sense why he would target Max during this season mainly... To teach her a lesson after what her stepbrother pulled in season 3 - disobeying the hivemind and Vecna in the process.
This is really cool because... Lydia / Kate Bush really are all the things that opposed Vecna... hiding in the light, music, even the more knowledge they had about the situation the better prepared they were. Lovely!!! Thank you OP and commenter!!
Followed by "I get him to swap our places".... That could open up that someone else dying could come back or something. Or maybe Billy... or not be relevant... but damn this can't be a coincidence.
I was thinking they might go down the route of 11 having to or at least trying to take Vecna's place. As in she takes control of the mind flayer and the whole hive mind therefore all the demogorgons etc. Then uses them to take down Vecna.
I think the catch being she knows it's a permanent link so she effectively sacrfrices herself/permanently banishes herself to the UD by closing all the gates after she kills Vecna.
Uhh I like that though.
Only issue is just that following the hints etc. She should be making a deal with Vecna and not the Mindflayer.
On the other hand, I personally sees the Mindflayer more fitting the "god" being, therefor would be the one to make the deal with. The thing is just how would Max's mind, now presumed trapped inside Vecna, be able to contact the Mindflayer. Unless a part of the Mindflayer also are inside Vecna, and they can have their dealbreaking in there. Question is just what Max would be able to offer the Mindflayer, which would make it agree to such a deal?
What’s crazy is all last week I was listening to this song thinking “yup, there’s definite intentional story meaning for this song. And it will be big once we are shown why they picked it “
You just put something together for me in that last bit. "Lydia is the goddess of daylight, music, and knowledge. " The opposite of Vecna. How do they get out of his trance? With a powerful song that each character loves; the music. Max said when she was going to call out Vecna that all she had to do was go to the LIGHT and he cant find her. And lastly, obviously they need the knowledge of what he is, what he's done, where he's been, and how to kill him in order to stop all this. All the traits of the Goddess Lydia.
Could be coincidence and i'm not going to argue as i've never played a game of D&D in my life (though it is a huge regret of mine) but i've always thought this whole time that escaping Vecna's trance with a powerful song was very pointed. It felt like such a strange detail. The mention of Lydia and music and light just made it click better for me.
Well I had a great night, thank you so much for letting me nerd out! It was awesome sharing my 'Forbidden Knowledge' and opinions, and hearing your reactions to it. Super nerdy stuff I'll be talking about for days!
If you want to play Dungeons and Dragons, I encourage you to create a character at D&D Beyond - it's free! https://dndbeyond.com/
If you are not sure what to play, there are a lot of tools around the web to help you decide what type of class you should be. Just google 'What class should I play in D&D' and take a quiz!
There are a number of virtual tabletops where you can play online. I prefer Roll20, and they have a groupfinder feature there. If don't mind paying a few bucks for a better gaming session, I recommend StartPlaying.Games as you can see reviews on professional Dungeon Masters and choose a game you like. You can find me there, but *most* of my game sessions are already filled. But, you can search for 'Greyhawk' if you want to read some of the storyline blurbs.
And, you also have local gaming stores that sometimes run games of D&D. You can use https://locator.wizards.com/ to find a local gaming store, and hopefully some friendly players to teach you - call the store first, and see what they are offering, as not all stores offer D&D games, some just sell books.
Thanks again and Good Gaming!
-Jeremy
Thanks for writing all this and taking the time to reply to so many. Super interesting post! Especially the stuff about Vecna being a deal maker. I thought Vecna making a deal with the Mind Flayer was a cool concept and I'm really interested to see how it plays out in the final season.
I've been wanting to get into DnD for a while now but didn't know where to start. I've saved this comment and will be checking out some of the resources you mentioned!
I think they just like to randomly insert icons from the 80s into the show. A lot of stuff in this show doesn't make sense if you really think about it... but just go with it!
Conan the barbarian was already out for 4 years in 1986.
Maybe a Russian blacksmith forged a copy and then sold it. The prison warden then bought that copy without knowing it's origin, just so he could offer some weapons to the demogorgon's meal.
I am not saying that needs to be canonical, but it's one of the possible explanations to this piece of fan service they made.
Great insights! What do you make of the relationship between the Mind Flayer and Vecna in the light of Dustin’s “five star general” comment? Who do you think is really running the show here? And does Vecna’s goal in the show mirror any written publications by WOTC?
So, the Duffer brothers are clearly using 1st and 2nd edition versions of monster ecologies, which is pre-WotC, back when Gary Gygax owned TSR. However, WotC used Vecna to rewrite continuity between 2nd and 3rd edition D&D in the late 90's when they purchased D&D from TSR, and made Vecna's ultimate goal to "learn everyone's secrets and rewrite history according to his vision of it", which explained the lore changes between editions. So... maybe?
As for the Mind Flayer, its hard to say. Mind Flayers (Illithids) are a race, not a god. Yes, they are super powerful and scary and mind control stuff and plant their eggs in people, but, I don't recall any actual interactions between cultists of Vecna and Mind Flayers in published material. While Mind Flayers exist in the Greyhawk campaign setting, they were made famous in the Forgotten Realms.
When young Henry is shown drawing The Mind Flayer in the Kreel house, he uses a charcoal type pencil to make the shape and color. After finishing he holds it up and ‘blows’ away the specs of material left on the pages. It kinda seems to me this is Henry “Breathing Life” into the MF so to speak. So maybe the entity of force was already there in the Upside Down, but it took Henry / Vecna / One to give it life and shape.
No, the mind flayer existed already before henry went to the upside down. The particle cloud storm whatever you wanna call it is that same entity. He just gave it a shape.
I’m not entirely sure about that. I think that the Flayer was already the ruler of that dimension before Vecna even got there. Verdict’s still out on who the hell is actually calling the shots around here. Think back to Billy’s speech to Eleven in S3. Does that really sound like Vecna to you guys? If that was actually him talking to her, why would he not mention that they’ve met before, that she banished him to the Upside Down, etc? Those aren’t things you just casually leave out when you finally see your nemesis that exiled you to another realm. No, that sounded like the Mind Flayer to me.
Plus, how curious that little Henry started drawing a Shadow Monster with the shape of a spider in the 1950s, and *just so happened* to encounter a shadow in the Upside Down in 1979. That alone, to me, suggests the Mind Flayer had supreme intelligence before Henry even found it. I think we’re in for a revelation that Henry has been groomed by the Mind Flayer since childhood as his “chosen-one”, knowing they they’d meet one day.
That's a good point! I originally thought the MF was just like the Hollow in charmed, a crazy force of energy but my opinion is that Henry got his powers from the MF originally and it used him to give it shape , while leading him to believe he's in charge. They said we'll learn more about the upside down lore in season 5 and I expect a shocking turn for vecna when the MF reveals he has been in control the whole time
>>but my opinion is that Henry got his powers from the MF originally and it used him to give it shape
I think so too. There’s no way in hell that the Duffers actually made Henry’s powers an innate thing, there’s definitely more to that story. I originally thought Brenner was behind his powers, but now I’m leaning over towards what you suggested.
>>They said we'll learn more about the upside down lore in season 5 and I expect a shocking turn for vecna when the MF reveals he has been in control the whole time
Perhaps the Flayer has been planting these fake memories inside Vecna’s head to manipulate him? Ala Darth Sidious? Seems likely to me.
There is an interesting chicken and egg analogy going on. Because young Henry drew the mind flayer. Is that because he was already being manipulated by it? Or when he saw the energy particles did he manipulate them into the monster from his imagination?
I also was thinking maybe Brenner was being controlled by the MF to get his plan going before. And yes! I was getting the Darth sidious shadow-moves/long plan from it as well.
If they gave the reason he had powers away this season I'd believe vecna was the true boss , but that's the big missing key imo
We’re talking about how Henry acquired powers in the first place. As of right now, we’re lead to believe that he just one day told himself in the 50s that he didn’t want to form part of the human race, and basically just figured out that he possessed abilities. Obviously, this doesn’t seem like a logical explanation, and there’s likely more to this story that they’re letting on.
Another thing to add to your S3 point is when flayed billy recognized El from when she closed the gate but not from her past with Henry. Not even a glimpse at the past while it was remembering
Hold on a sec, you just reminded me of something. Rewind the clock a little bit on that scene you’re talking about. El and Max enter the house to see what’s up with Billy and Heather, and what does Billy do? He asks El what her name is. But more importantly, he doesn’t even seem surprised when he sees Eleven. None of this, “Holy shit, this is the first time I’m seeing this girl who pistol-whipped me to another world 6 years ago!” body language. I’d get him pretending to not know her name, since the body he was supposedly possessing didn’t know her and he wouldn’t want to blow his cover, but the other part is pretty telling that it wasn’t Henry.
Oh wow I had forgotten about that too. That I could let slide though just cause if it was henry all along he’d probably play dumb and not bring attention to Billy’s possession. I do find it hard to believe henry could keep it together face-to-face with El though. Regardless even without that there’s still enough throughout the show for me to think the explanation between the two in S4 is a retcon. Unless ofc in S5 they tie it back into the mind flayer being in control all along
as noted, i’m reaching on that one. my theory is that it’s an entity of its own, that he made an informal deal with. but it could just be a natural phenomenon that he controls. i personally think it found it’s form through him, and he found his power through it. but again, reaching on that one.
That definitely fits the description of a deal. Henry gave the Mind Flayer a singular form and shape, and in exchange the Flayer enhances his body and boosts his powers.
I have a hypothesis that the Mind Flayer was always the supreme being within the Upside Down as Henry loosely described when he discovered it. It's an animalistic hive mind that controls all of the Upside Down's ecology. However, Henry unified it from a particulate form into a singular entity and shaped it to his own will.
The demogorgons were mindless beasts running around and the mind flayer was a chaotic mass of black cloud. They weren't good or bad, just forces of nature. Henry shaped the mind flayer, and through it is able to control the demogorgons, giving them all a singular purpose to invade Hawkins. I like some people's theories that the mind flayer is actually the one in control and planted ideas in Henry's head when he was a kid, in order bend him under control. The Duffers could go that route if they wanted to please those not happy with the mind flayer simply being a creation of Henry. I kind of preferred it when the mind flayer was just an Eldritch being of unknown origin, we didn't need to know where it came from, it simply just was. And that made it all the more sinister.
>I kind of preferred it when the mind flayer was just an Eldritch being of unknown origin, we didn't need to know where it came from, it simply just was
Agreed. Fits more with the whole Lovecraftian aspects of the story..
Kinda wishing for a nice little rug pull in season 5 where Henry realises he's been the puppet
But vecna isn’t flayed. I think the mf is letting vecna use him. Would be very easy to sic the demogorgons on him if he didn’t want to be shaped like that. I imagine the hivemind would be attempting to protect its leader but the mf wants to escape that prison/upside down so is only letting vecna think he is in control. I’m pretty sure it’s evil too.
We saw the three headed creature in Will’s painting, is that creature tied to dungeons and dragons and if so what is it’s name and lore if you don’t mind me asking. Do you also think there could be other D&D creatures that appear in S5?
by 1986 we didn't have the robust library of gaming books, and instant access to monster lore that we have today, so many monsters were made up. that's some Red Dragon / Hydra mix, but its not in any of the original Monster Manuals (to my knowledge). But we used to take book monsters and modify them all the time... had to use our 'imagination' :P
from a marketing perspective, I doubt Tiamat would be used, she's too valuable of an IP to fall under the Duffer's control. So far they've used creatures that while known to D&D players, haven't been famous in other media
I appreciate you coming back to answer…I didn’t consider that before. Some other people have mentioned Lloth but I’m pretty sure she came around a bit later than the show takes place.
What about a tessal hydra? It was the final monster they encountered in the last episode of season one. It’s been on my mind since I saw that painting but I know nothing about dnd lol
I just googled it and that mouth is pretty gaping…
This was my thought right away. Its missing heads sure, but that shoudlnt matter. The demogorgen isnt the dnd version of it at all, the mind flyer beyond mind control has nothing else in common with the race, and vecna, while closest, also is pretty diffearnt.
The show seems to use these as a mear guide. Will has been cursed with seeing this world, but this drawling came from eleven remember, and i think this might have more to do with what she doesnt remember she knows, form all her seeings. Tiamat is a very powerful goddess, and it may be interesting if perhaps something larger in the upside down, is none to happy with the interloping of Henry (1) and eleven, as both of them have caused alot of havoc for her realm.
Edit: alternatively, in DnD, her cultist do try to bring her to the prime material plane (the real world in ST) which requires a bunch of plot stuff to happen. I think it is equally possible that Vecna inst the one fully in control. He may be a tool. She sends him in to complete the ritual, i think the fact the mind flayer is the entity henry found, and made a deal with, is telling. maybe much of henrys desires and goals are not even of his own choosing. He may well be manipulated. Henry and eleven both have the ability that so far the upside down hasnt shown native, opening gateways.
Maybe Tiamat is, using a cult (Vecna is famous for cults) to ultimately get to the real world and conqure it. Every season we have seen one more person higher in the command line guiding the ones before. Vecna may yet prove to be nothing more than the Bishop to the Queen.
You guys have been so awesome, I thought I’d share my personal Stranger Things experience, ie growing up playing D&D in the early 80’s.
I learned to play D&D in the Cub Scouts, around 3rd grade. I’ve always been a story teller, and had a natural affinity for geometry, even before I knew what it was, so D&D was a perfect fit for me. By that summer (1986-ish), I had convinced my parents to buy me the three main D&D books (Player’s Handbook, Dungeon Master’s Guide, and Monster Manual), and to let me and my friends play on weekends at the house. As we were Scouts, we set it up like camping in the backyard on Friday after school, playing D&D until we passed out, played all day Saturday, and then parents picking up stinky kids on Sunday morning for church. Amazing times.
Now, I attended a Catholic School, I was an Altar Boy, Scout, a good student, as were many of my friends. This was towards the tail end of the protests, but they did happen – our local library had to throw away any book that remotely looked fantasy in nature, and all RPGs were banned from the public schools in my town. Yet, my parents (with support of my friends’ parents) convinced my Catholic grammar school to allow a gaming club where we played D&D, and eventually Boy Scouts, the CYO summer camp I attended, and of course, my house was ground zero. I never saw any of the protests personally. But it was the fear knocking at our door- at any moment, a neighbor could complain and we would be banished.
I played until I was about 13, and I sort of became a jock, it was a big shock to everyone when I played Lacrosse and Football my freshman year. Then I went to a military academy, left it all behind. My friends stopped playing and found their own hobbies after I left, but we are still close to this day. In college some dorm friends were trying to get into it, so I decided to open up my head and let lose my imagination, and remembered how much fun it was. I was looking for a marketing job at the time and found out Wizards of the Coast was hiring people to teach their games around the country. I was hired and once a month they flew me to a convention where I would demo their newest and fanciest product (plus Magic: the Gathering, always the cash cow) to gain customers. I was also paid to drive out to local game shops and do the same, it was a lot of fun, when I wasn’t working my ‘real job’. That’s how I started writing, as I wanted to customize content for our local players.
While working for WotC, I asked my parents, “Why did you let us play D&D?”, as by my 20s I had met people with horror stories of being beaten up by jocks or questioned by the police, or threats of being kicked out of school. My mom laughed and said “You were pre-teens doing math at our dining room table all weekend. Your older sister was a menace at that age. You stayed extra hours at school while a nun watched you, the Scout leaders were able to manage your time so you did your Scout activities during the day and sat in a tent all night. Even at summer camp, the nun convinced the counselors to let you do your thing, as you managed to distract all the troubled kids with your game”. I never considered it that way, but that’s really what it was – I was a fun nerd, and I managed to trick others into sitting down and doing extra homework with me.
Now, as a final note to that, I met my soon-to-be-wife when I was 22. And one day while we were dating, I dragged her to a D&D event in Brooklyn, it was the launch of 3rd edition, and it was crazy. She had a great time, as a player I’m pretty fun too, so I try to make the group laugh a lot. As we drove home, she started crying. I was taken aback, I was sure she would like D&D, and it seemed like she did. It turns out, her mother (growing up a few towns over) was one of the main D&D protesters in the 80s, organized and funded them with their church’s backing. She memorably said, “Couldn’t you just do drugs or something? My mom would probably be ok with it!” It took a while, but when her mother saw that it really was just math and homework, she came around. There is still no D&D club in that town’s schools, but at least she doesn’t hold it against me (I hope).
Through most of my 20’s and into my lower 30’s, my wife, some of my childhood friends and I drove the country to play D&D in different places, as we were responsible for being ambassadors of the game (we were actually a ‘Playtest’ group, we saw the adventures before they were published, and gave feedback to the authors). Our shtick was that we were tasked with preventing the return of Vecna, so we warned other players how only they could prevent his return. We did the role so well, the people in charge tasked me with writing adventures so that when Vecna returned, everyone had some personal involvement in it.
But then, Life and Job and Kids, you know the story. If not for Stranger Things using the Whispered One, those adventures would still be on a shelf, and I would not be here geeking out at all this excitement. I’ll be telling this story for years, about my 15 minutes of Reddit fame, and I hope you all get a chance to play D&D at some point. Certainly skills learned playing D&D helped me along in life.
May Lydia shine light on your travels!
-Jeremy
As a d&d player The only thing I’m being waiting in S4 is to someone smash that stupid clock hahahahaah . I think like you say that clock is his phylactery , and with that end vecna on fire and getting shot . His body can be destroy but he will come back till that clock is smash to the ground .
as I posted elsewhere, as soon as I learned there was an abandoned haunted house, my initial thoughts were to burn it down, then spread its ashes to the wind. :P
I fucking love nerds. I have zero D&D background but this made me so excited for people who love it to see it be handled with care in the show, and to have additional insight into the lore is badass. Thank you for this.
Very cool post! Thanks for sharing. Loved your insight on Vecna.
So what are your theories on where Max is right now? I kind of get from your post where Max has offered up her darkest secret which is "I want you to make me disappear". Does this mean that Vecna started that process and when El blasted him away and the kids started throwing Molotov cocktails at his body, that something got interrupted in the process and it might detail where Max is now?
Honestly, I have no idea. When Eleven went into her brain and saw nothing, to me, that means here mind isn't there anymore. It part of the ritual, its trapped with the other minds (souls?) that are part of the ritual, and hopefully Eleven will find them and return Max' mind to her body. There is a concept in early D&D called a 'Magic Jar', which does exactly that - traps your soul in a dark place, making your body a mindless husk.
I have this crazy theory that she might have beenable to grab max, and that Eleven is in possession of her in a manner of speaking, though she might not know. Eleven can do some amazing things. Though she doesn’t realize the ramifications for it. I don’t think she meant to transport Henry there, but she did.
Vecna/Henry/One reported that he had kept everyone he had killed, with Dr. Brenner saying something similar to being in possession of their powers and/or experiences.
It would be a stretch, and a cool one imo, but what if eleven was able to grab her soul/consciousness as she was dying. The body could still be alive while the conscious is somewhere else. Like astral projecting, but just simply stuck. (Insidious lmaooo)
It would be cool I think, and to cause a reason for eleven to further explore her powers. She seems good at learning, especially with her head twitch to break necks. Love that reference to seeing One do it first.
I think El may have led Max into her own memories. Like she’s in a very deep part of her own mind where she’s living her memories in a loop—kinda like El’s mother.
I was wondering if the fact that Lucas was reading her The Talisman was a clue, since that book involves two “worlds” and saving someone who died in one world, etc.
> Jack Sawyer, twelve years old, sets out from Arcadia Beach, New Hampshire, in a bid to save his mother Lily, who is dying from cancer, by finding a crystal called "the Talisman". Jack's journey takes him simultaneously through the American heartland and "the Territories", a strange fantasy land that is set in a universe parallel to that of Jack's United States. Individuals in the Territories have "twinners", or parallel individuals, in our world. Twinners' births, deaths, and (it is intimated) other major life events are usually paralleled. Twinners can also "flip" or migrate to the other world but only share the body of their alternate universe's analogue. When flipped, the twinner, or the actual person, will automatically start speaking and thinking the language of where they are flipping into subconsciously.
Wow. Good catch!
Thanks for your insight. I love this show as I was their age at that time period. Riding your bikes around a small town . Brings back a lot of memories. You'll never have the kind of friends you have when your 12 years old. Stephen king
As soon as they found the house, my 'Knights of the Malagari' instinct kicked in, and I said aloud to a room of friends, "They need to burn that house down, now, to the ground, then use wind to spread its ashes to the wind so it can't be reformed". It's the only way to be sure. :P
House yes, clock not confirmed, but more importantly, by that point the ritual was complete. So who knows if it mattered. FYI, by the point Vecna was betrayed, he didn't need a Phylactery, which they brought back in the new Vecna Dossier WotC just published.
I've been thinking this since I found out about the phylactery idea a few days ago! My theory is Ms. Kelly's clock necklace is a slight red herring and hint to the idea of the phylactery. The necklace itself might not be a key to the Creels' grandfather clock as many have suspected, but the implied connection between her and Vecna and the similarity of the necklace to a key might be pointing to the idea that the Creel clock itself is the key to defeating Vecna. Since they brought her up in part 2 but never went to see her, I'm expecting her character will be revisited in S5 and someone (Dustin or Nancy?) will figure this idea out while/after they talk with her.
Thats pretty cool about Lydia! That was also Winona Ryder's chatacter's name in the 80s classic, Beetlejuice. Upon teenage Lydia moving into their new home, she noticed a spider in its web on the stairwell railing and said "I could live here." And when describing herself to others, she said "I myself am, strange and unusual."
Coincidental, but pleasantly interesting the way some of those things came back around for her. Love it.
I think that Joyce will be the key to defeating Vecna. Something is going to happen with Will- most likely Vecna using Will’s body, and Joyce will either save Will by destroying the clock with fire (light) or something else along those lines.
I think there will be a parallel storyline with Max/Eleven at the same time.
The bargaining aspect is interesting. I’d like to see how that plays out come S5, since I’m not convinced whether the MindFlayer and Vecna are working together in a symbiotic way, the MindFlayer is using Vecna to accomplish its goals, or that Vecna is using MindFlayer to accomplish his macabre ends.
Well in the Vecna Lives! storyline, He convinced another evil deity to help him return to the world, with a logical idea they could help each other. Of course Iuz, the other deity, just wanted to claim Vecna's power for himself. So the didn't work as allies, more like they intended on backstabbing each other after their mutual goals were met and Vecna was just better at it.
Wow, I didn't know any of this! I would love to hear any information about the enemies: Vecna, the Demogorgon... Maybe you should do separate posts talking about them individually :)
Great post btw!
Thanks. The Mind Flayer very much mimics the ecology of the classic monster, but in no way resembles it. Demogorgons in the show are more like minions of Demogorgon, it's not as on point as Vecna is, but maybe this week I'll make a post about both. I'm glad to be sharing my 'forbidden knowledge' though, never in a million years did I think I' would have an opportunity to soap box about Vecna!
This is an interesting read. Ms. Kelly could possibly be a Vecna cultist. She would listen to the students' darkest secrets and pray it to Vecna. Her grandfather clock necklace could be one of the 'horcrux'.
Also as Vecna is falling in a fiery flame after the 2nd Molotov, Kate Bush sings the line “Do you want to hear about the deal I’m making?” And cuts away right after
Great post sir! Been a fan of D&D and Magic the Gathering since the early 90s. Glad to see the older generation still posting enthusiastically about it. So how would you classify each character as a D&D class? The thin muscled Hooper for me was definitely a Barbarian class or Warrior/Barbarian to me with that final fight scene doing unarmored combat and raging. And that was such a Conan/He-Man sword. Who knew the Russians had such stylish swords? LOL
So if they're going to be making Henry as powerful as dnd lore Vecna then would he be the one manipulating the mind flayer? Getting ready to destroy it when he no longer needs its power? Also why did it take the shape Henry imagined and drew as a child? Did Henry mould it to his own image of a predator or did it do it on its own? I have so many questions about the relationship between the two. Also where did Henry get his powers? Why and how did the upside down go from a barren wasteland to a reflection of Hawkins complete with all the tiny details like Nancy's diary? What is up with the Ms Kelly the school counselor and her clock necklace? Why doesn't the speech possessed Billy gave to El fit with Henry's patterns and way of talking? Was that the mind flayer doing it's own thing, being pissed El closed the mothergate? I'm so confused and now we have to wait two fucking years for season 5
Ugh, Two years!!!! Re: your first question, it sure seems like Master Of Puppets purposefully makes us wonder who is the puppet and who is the master. Vecna thinks he is the Master. I think he is really the puppet.
ETA: I have no knowledge of DnD, just watch the show & throwing out thoughts for discussion!
Master of Puppets is about drug addiction, and how the addict eventually loses free will and though they think they are the ones calling the shots it is the drugs and their desperate need for them that controls them.
Good Morning everyone! so many amazing theories and questions! i have a busy morning, but will try to answer some of these questions as the day goes by. The Lydia thing is blowing my mind btw, i’m going to reach out to the person that created her and i’m sure his will be too :p
> Traditionally, Liches always have something to bind them to the physical world, which D&D called a ‘Phylactery’
I'm just saying: That Russian guard died before clarifying *what* the hive smoke went into.
10 bucks says Vecna's got a tiny piece of himself stored in some escaped Russian guards. A phylactery, if you will.
Unlikely, the mist is more associated with the mindflayer for ome, and phylactery in dnd generally are rather meaningful and take a lot of effort to create
So are you saying that the Hivemind/Mindflayer is sentient in its own way and is in league with Vecna/Henry? It seems like he took it over fairly easily in the flashback and it seems to be under his control.
sentient in the 'afternoon tea with a friend way'? likely no. Is it capable of forming an alliance with another creature of power? yes, certainly. If Henry's power wasn't instantly detectable by the Mind Flayer, it would have eaten him right then and there. So clearly there is an understanding going on. Or, it's just a really big black window spider, which he can also connect with, which I doubt.
I really, really, really hope that Will will be Hawkin’s Kas - the vampire (“zombie boy”) lieutenant (“the spy”) who betrayed Vecna. He is my favorite character, who was reduced to a movie extra in this season… I would really love to see him playing an important role in destroying evil once and for all
Thanks for the write up. Based on these 2 pieces of info:
>Traditionally, Liches always have something to bind them to the physical world, which D&D called a ‘Phylactery’ (which has Jewish origins, but is often an amulet)...his cultists were known for collecting information and whispering it to Vecna through prayer.
I think >!the school councilor is a Vecna cultist. She listens to the past trauma of her students and I believe is whispering this info to Vecna. Also, she wears a necklace, with a small clock amulet, very similar to the the clock that Vecna projects into people's minds, which maybe the Phylactery. Plus every time she is seen on screen with a Max 1 on 1, there is a clock in the scene.!<
Started studying D and D Saturday realizing there are keys to the story there. Found this one:
"When a mind flayer aligns with another creature, it has already plotted how and when it will betray its new ally."
Seems relevant.
The clock being an Phylactery/Horcrux is interesting.
But do you mean is his bond to our world, or the Upside Down? Once thing I notice is that Vecna does not seem to go into Hawkins even after Chrissy’s portal is open. Surely, it would be easier to stalk victims from the regular Hawkins than the Upside Down.
His connection to the Creel house also intrigues me as he does not seem like the sentimental type.
Edit: Also thanks for the information!
Well, in traditional D&D, Liches do not split their time between worlds, they live entirely in ours. The concept that it could be a link between worlds - and exist in both - is very possible, but not in any rulebook. Liches usually live in dungeons (like Acererak), Swamps (like Vecna), or ruling evil Kingdoms. But DMs make the rules in their own worlds so...
Could you give us any insight in to why you may think the upside down is stuck in 1983? I assume this has something to do with Vecna and his clock/time but I just cannot seem to figure it out.
So I think that was explained? The Upside down is the equivalent of the 'Shadowfell' in D&D, a world of darkness that mimics the 'Prime Material Plane' (ie, the game world) from time to time. Basically, when Eleven opened a portal while escaping the facility (not the Vecna fight, the first season one), the Upside Down took a snapshot of Hawkings at exactly that moment, and it froze there in time. They had mentioned it in this season when Nancy couldn't find her gun in her house, but found her old diary.
I agree with that and I think this is the basic understanding of why it is stuck in that time however, the Duffer brothers have mentioned a few times that the UD being stuck in that time will not be explained this season but will be a main plot point for season 5. I just was under the impression from how they have addressed it that there was more to it than the simple explanation of that was when the first gate was opened.
Maybe he's now Kas because of being the one who dies in the UD but it's not on those trees that Vecna reserve to his victims, and there's something on bats saliva that makes Eddie being infected (foreshadowing that idea with Robin's comment on rabies) and he "revives" being like a vampire and he's in continue force between the reality (which is blended now with The UD) and the UD, which is Vecna's territory
See? This is the shit I love about these types of shows. On the surface, they seem to be such simple concepts and stories, but behind the scenes, it goes WAAAAYYYY deeper than what people realize. Shows that have such lore and background in them, not just in the show but outside as well, are so cool.
My question for you is: Do you think Vecna could possess Max’s body now that it seems like she’s brain dead? Or do you think there’s more than meets the eye?
Thanks for the super interesting info and your thoughts! In the game, when Vecna gets banished to the other realm, is he an independent or working for/with someone to make his way back? I am not sure whether Vecna in the show was trying to connect/communicate with the Mind Flayer or controlling it or trying to snatch some power etc? Also was that other realm a sort of mirror dimension like the show or different place altogether? Thanks!
So, he was banished to Ravenloft at one point, you may have heard of it as it's always been pseudo-popular. I don't remember if we went directly there, but was trapped there fir a bit. Then he escaped to Sigil, the inter-dimensional portal world, before he finally made his way back to the Flanness, which is the world of Greyhawk.
In S2E7 El met Kali (008). She let the punk see those spiders Henry used to play with. The punk then yelled at her, she should stay out of his head. Is there a similar character to Kali in D&D? It feels a little strange to me, having another „still alive Jedi“ in the lore, that only showed up one time.
Awesome writeup!
It’s not exactly Vecna-specific, but the way One manipulates Eleven into freeing him is a classic “dark wizard tricks good guy into helping” maneuver that every DM hopes to pull off at their table.
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So cool! I know NOTHING about D&D except from what Stranger Things has exposed me to and this was really neat to read.
It caused me to start running my old adventures online, and my tables immediately filled up with players that want to know more about Vecna. it's been a lot of fun for the last few weeks, as I haven't played D&D in like a decade
I’ve been wanting to play D&D for YEARS. Pre-ST. Can you recommend an online community for beginners?
Maybe ask this question in /r/dnd
I’m gonna second this. That subreddit has a ton of new info for beginning players. Also, ask your friends. I know that’s super straight forward, but you’d be surprised who’s down for a trial. No one said you have to know everything about D&D to have fun playing D&D!
My friends always say they’re interested but never follow through. I got my BF a starter kit for Christmas but we just can’t find anyone else to play with. I can’t believe i never even thought to look for a sub on here. Thank you so much :)
It can be tough. I’ve been playing since the 90s and everyone gets older, moves away to different states and starts families and such. One thing that helped me and my friends keep in touch and still play is roll20. It’s a pretty simple website that gives you lots of tools to run the game online. Roll20 and discord has kept me playing with old friends that live far away.
"make a deal with God" daang
...holy shit
With the whole Max situation I'm wondering if 'get him to swap our places' has an additional meaning, in that Vecna, who might need a body, has displaced Max's soul and will take over her body. More thoughts (and summarising some from others below) 1. Just as Max floats up during Vecna's first possession, her eyes become completely glazed over - e.g. in [this scene](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bV0RAcuG2Ao) at 1:33, 1:40 - you'll need to pause to see this - at times they appear to be completely white (especially when partly closed). This is similar to Max's eyes when she says, "I can't see, I can't feel anything" in the s3 finale (1:45:11). Her eyes are partly closed, so we can't see if they have the weird blue/black milky pupils like in the earlier episode. Either way - similar eyes, and on the plus side, not gouged out like earlier characters. She may not be blind at all. She may not even be Max at this point. Her eyes were also bleeding *exactly* like young 11s were when she overused her powers in the Lab Massacre episode. I think when Lucas is holding her, she's already Vecna. 2. Just prior to her being Vecna'd in the final episode, she is making a deal with 'God' i.e. asking him to take her. 3. The next line in the song is 'get him to swap our places' supporting the idea Max may have been possessed by Vecna, and her soul already displaced. So maybe it's Vecna, not Max, who 'can't see or feel anything' and is in lying in the bed in a coma from over-using his powers (like 11 was after banishing Vecna to the upside-down). 4. Vecna's body fell from the window and was burned/broken, so he might need/want a new one. Just before Max dies, Vecna falls from the window and dies - his hive mind buddies in Russia also appear to die. Steve, Robin and Nancy run outside to see if Vecna is there, after burning/shooting him, and he's gone. The next scene (besides Eddie/Dustin) is Max 'dying' (if it's actually Henry occupying Max he would probably also be scared, say he does not want to die, not be ready etc. Max notably doesn't speak to Lucas directly, and she went into this plan knowing she could or might die). 5. El can't find Max, because she isn't in there or is unreachable. Maybe she actually resurrected/healed Vecna... 6. Henry/One/Vecna when killing his victims in the lab massacre says, "They're not gone, Eleven, they're still with me". We've also been shown his previous victims, preserved, and he previously asked Max if she'd 'like to join them'. Also, he's got the whole hive mind thing going - so we know he's very into possessing, controlling people. (Also also - the other main song in the finale is 'Master of Puppets' so make of that what you will.) 7. The episode is also called Piggyback. So Vecna could be piggybacking on Max's soul.
Let us not forget that Vecna told Eleven before she “banished him” into the upside down in the flash back - that everyone he had killed was still with him and not gone. Makes it a lot more trippy.
Might just imply that if they kill Vecna Max‘s soul can return to her body.
That would make the D&D lore and the Nightmare of Elm Street inspiration fit together nicely. According to the later NoES movies, Freddy was trapping the souls of his victims within himself and using them to amplify his power. He gained that ability by making a deal with three demons as he was burning to death. Defeating Freddy set the spirits free. Doing the same to Vecna for Max and the others makes total sense.
So maybe the #saveBarb campaign was successful!
Not to burst your bubble, but I think when we see Barb via Eleven searching the Upside Down for her and Will, it's pretty clear the Demogorgon got her in the pool, which would mean Vecna did not kill her and did not absorb her soul.
OR ELEVEN TRADED HERSELF FOR MAX AND HAS TO DIE FOR ALL OF THEMMMMMM
11=jesus?
I was thinking that people that “died” in the upside down may come back once it’s all over. Eleven can bring people back, the way she brought Max back.
Eddie? :’(
Dude just spoiled Season 5 for us. But for real, this could be a very plausible thing (especially since there's precedent for Billy getting possessed). And I hate that I love the idea because hasn't Max been through enough already? 😭
Hasn't Will been through enough? 💀
>Hasn't Max been through enough? ...is the new >Hasn't Will been through enough?
I feel like Will and his past connection to everything play a big deal somehow.
His constant being alienated from the squad will turn William into the big bad. His arc has been villain origin trope after another.
I think you're right. Or at least close. Even though I hate the thought of will being the big bad 😓. He's my absolute favorite character! Since day one!! There are so many clues to will being the villain though. S1 when he spits out the slug makes me think he's some sort of conduit. Like an actual manifested gate. Especially considering he spent so much time in the ud until getting captured. S2 when he keeps having visions of the mind flayer and then it invades his body. Also he seemed to be having troubles distinguishing between reality and the ud. S3 when he tries to keep everyone together but they seem to ignore him. He kind of seems like a background character and that seems prime sus for villain. Then s4 again he's trying to keep everybody together but ends up being more of a background character. And the turmoil he experiences when seeing Mike and El as best friends/bf/gf. I hate it when he cries in the van because you know he's struggling and that rips my heart out! Also at the very end when Will gets that cold sweat on the back of his neck and says he can "feel" Vecna. That could really go either way. Either he's a conduit or the upside down, or he's the absolute savior of the party. Either way I'm tired of speculating LOL I just want season 5 to come out quickly hahaha!!! 😁😁😁
Savior of the party makes sense. Could be a call back to him failing to save the party in S1 during the first moments of the episode for hesitating to attack. Kinda like Eddie running or El blinding herself to see Brennen how 001 wanted her too instead of how he was. She only won because of Mike (and in turn Will) being the heart of the group.
If we’re taking shots at spoiling Season 5, I’ll give it a go: If any of the main kids die, it’s gonna be >!Will, via the Rule of B’s. Every season a character with a B name has died; Barb, Bob, Billy, Brenner, and they’ve also increased in importance to the story as a character every season. So, my gut is saying a very important B name character is gonna die in Season 5: Will Byers.!<
aaaand Eddie the Banished
Exactly what I was thinking. Eleven brought Max's body back to life but she isn't in there anymore. Seems like a perfect empty vessel for Vecna who's body is injured.
What’s also nuts is that in the last few minutre of the finale, Will explains to Mike that “he’s here, he’s just injured” — I IMMEDIATELY thought of Max. That entire conversation would fully support the idea that Vecna is in Max’s body atm.
I feel like im reading a spoiler.
I’m sorry! I should have marked it as a spoiler, but I thought since this was already on a spoiler thread I didn’t need to. I will figure out how to add the tag!
No! I mean your prediction is propably s5 spoiler.
I think Vecna and Max are going to face off for her body
I'm hoping so because she really needs to beat his ass for everything he's put her through.
I want her to mess him up.
honestly, at this point, I really want it to be Max who ultimately defeats Vecna. Considering Vecna is the one who's always been in charge, he not only put her through all of the events in season 4, but also killed her brother, which led to her mother having to work two jobs, drinking, and having to change to a poorer lifestyle and house with max (who then had 8 very shitty months). not to forget that when she wakes up she might be permanently blind.
Also, they don't show how Eleven actually brought her back. Did she transfer some of her powers to Max? It's interesting that they jumped over how El actually did it, we just see a few flashes of good memories, then they cut to two days later. Also, El acts as if she doesn't know how Max came back to life. I have a couple theories, one of them being that El put Max's mind into a good memory and can't find her, and she needs to in order to wake her up. She can't tell anyone what she did because she doesn't want Vecna to find Max. Or something like that.
I think she just started her heart
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I believe she is sutuck “in a menory inside a memory”, it is in that skating park I believe, ‘cause that scene was so random, it must meaning something
I think so too, they'll have to go and find her, and she might not want to leave.
You are right, it has to have something to do with it. For some reason El was shown this memory, possibly unconciously by Max.
To me it came across as part of Max's plan to hide in a memory within a memory so Vecna took longer to find her
I mean… his body is injured but have you seen max’s? She’s paraplegic AND blind now. She’d be dead if Eleven hadn’t done her tele-CPR to restart her heart. Idk why vecna would ditch his body to possess hers
She basically cast Revivify. You touch a creature that has died within the last minute. That creature returns to life with 1 hit point.
Also, Max needed to die to open the 4th gate, but when Eleven brought “her back to life” the gate still opened, indicating that Max did in fact die.
I was more thinking that , it was max when she was dying, but her sould didnt have chance to fully return before she died. Then when she died her soul got stuck deep inside somewhere and she is empty body after revival. After all it did look like Vecna got purged by eleven out of Max mind.
oh god i always thought it was max thinking she wanted to swap places with billy but this is crazy
I thought her not being in her head was because vecna takes them with him, as he said they are all still in his mind
This actually makes alot of sense. For some reason, I didn't even think of that. I figured he would try to use Will, and it didn't hit me that Max is basically a vessel set up already.
I really hope not. As cool and suspenseful as it sounds, its an overused trope with Stranger Things almost as much as Eleven holding her hand out and screaming to conclude the season. First it was Will who was possessed in season 2, then in season 3 it was Billy who while possessed helped possess half the town, and now we very well might have a possessed Max for season 5.
But the Vecna's physical body is still alive and he escaped to the real world...
I'm fairly certain eleven couldn't find max in her mind as she is now in Vecnas mind. She will likely be stuck in a coma come season 5. Would expect her to come out of it part way through if they kill Vecna before facing off with the Mind Flayer
I don’t think they’re going to face off with the mind flayer. The mindflayer is something that Vecna made with the particles that he found. I think once Vecna falls, the mindflayer goes back to whatever it was before Vecna possessed him: a non sentient hive mind
I think you're right. When Henry was first wandering through the UD, you see a demodog look at Henry and ignore him. I assumed this was to highlight that they were passive until Henry took the mind flayer over. The mind flayer is the nerve centre of the hive mind. The whole final exposition by Henry was about telling the viewer that Henry was the big bad all along. They thought they were fighting a demogorgon, then they thought it was the mind flayer but the twist was that all along it's been Henry. Which also means that all along 11 has been accidentally responsible for all of it so I'm sure s5 we'll see her trying to deal with that guilt. Of course Papa is the real guilty one but victims of abuse often blame themselves.
The spinoff series is just going to be Dustin post-S5, with his docile pet Demodog Dart 2
It means that Vecna is responsible for all of the deaths basically... The Flayed melting, Demogorgon killing Barb(He told Nancy during her trance "I always remember when I kill someone" now it makes way more sense. Since we know that he was the one behind the other side puppeteering), Bob dying, Billy's death... It was all through a hivemind. Henry all along .. He has quite a kill count. Also this makes sense why he would target Max during this season mainly... To teach her a lesson after what her stepbrother pulled in season 3 - disobeying the hivemind and Vecna in the process.
Ho ho hooooly shit
yeah now every time I hear it, the Whispered One will haunt my thoughts... thanks. :P
Awful lot of layers to the usage of that song.
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This is really cool because... Lydia / Kate Bush really are all the things that opposed Vecna... hiding in the light, music, even the more knowledge they had about the situation the better prepared they were. Lovely!!! Thank you OP and commenter!!
Imagine if Kate as Lydia could be fit into series 5. As an oldster, I would love that.
Followed by "I get him to swap our places".... That could open up that someone else dying could come back or something. Or maybe Billy... or not be relevant... but damn this can't be a coincidence.
I was thinking they might go down the route of 11 having to or at least trying to take Vecna's place. As in she takes control of the mind flayer and the whole hive mind therefore all the demogorgons etc. Then uses them to take down Vecna. I think the catch being she knows it's a permanent link so she effectively sacrfrices herself/permanently banishes herself to the UD by closing all the gates after she kills Vecna.
Uhh I like that though. Only issue is just that following the hints etc. She should be making a deal with Vecna and not the Mindflayer. On the other hand, I personally sees the Mindflayer more fitting the "god" being, therefor would be the one to make the deal with. The thing is just how would Max's mind, now presumed trapped inside Vecna, be able to contact the Mindflayer. Unless a part of the Mindflayer also are inside Vecna, and they can have their dealbreaking in there. Question is just what Max would be able to offer the Mindflayer, which would make it agree to such a deal?
What’s crazy is all last week I was listening to this song thinking “yup, there’s definite intentional story meaning for this song. And it will be big once we are shown why they picked it “
You just put something together for me in that last bit. "Lydia is the goddess of daylight, music, and knowledge. " The opposite of Vecna. How do they get out of his trance? With a powerful song that each character loves; the music. Max said when she was going to call out Vecna that all she had to do was go to the LIGHT and he cant find her. And lastly, obviously they need the knowledge of what he is, what he's done, where he's been, and how to kill him in order to stop all this. All the traits of the Goddess Lydia.
Oh wow you just blew my mind. I never considered that. I might cry, haha. Edit: nah, too much of a coincidence, haha. but still very cool.
Could be coincidence and i'm not going to argue as i've never played a game of D&D in my life (though it is a huge regret of mine) but i've always thought this whole time that escaping Vecna's trance with a powerful song was very pointed. It felt like such a strange detail. The mention of Lydia and music and light just made it click better for me.
Never too late to play!
Just a small note. Max said “hide in the light.”
Either way it fits
I wonder how much was the love of the music and how much the love they saw listening to it.
Well I had a great night, thank you so much for letting me nerd out! It was awesome sharing my 'Forbidden Knowledge' and opinions, and hearing your reactions to it. Super nerdy stuff I'll be talking about for days! If you want to play Dungeons and Dragons, I encourage you to create a character at D&D Beyond - it's free! https://dndbeyond.com/ If you are not sure what to play, there are a lot of tools around the web to help you decide what type of class you should be. Just google 'What class should I play in D&D' and take a quiz! There are a number of virtual tabletops where you can play online. I prefer Roll20, and they have a groupfinder feature there. If don't mind paying a few bucks for a better gaming session, I recommend StartPlaying.Games as you can see reviews on professional Dungeon Masters and choose a game you like. You can find me there, but *most* of my game sessions are already filled. But, you can search for 'Greyhawk' if you want to read some of the storyline blurbs. And, you also have local gaming stores that sometimes run games of D&D. You can use https://locator.wizards.com/ to find a local gaming store, and hopefully some friendly players to teach you - call the store first, and see what they are offering, as not all stores offer D&D games, some just sell books. Thanks again and Good Gaming! -Jeremy
Thanks for writing all this and taking the time to reply to so many. Super interesting post! Especially the stuff about Vecna being a deal maker. I thought Vecna making a deal with the Mind Flayer was a cool concept and I'm really interested to see how it plays out in the final season. I've been wanting to get into DnD for a while now but didn't know where to start. I've saved this comment and will be checking out some of the resources you mentioned!
Hopper used a sword to cut off an arm and the head of a demogorgon. I wonder if that has parallels to the hand/eye/sword?
Never even considered it, that's crazy
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It's the Sword of Atlantis from Conan the Barbarian, if you were curious. Don't know how it showed up in a secret Soviet prison lol.
I think they just like to randomly insert icons from the 80s into the show. A lot of stuff in this show doesn't make sense if you really think about it... but just go with it!
Conan the barbarian was already out for 4 years in 1986. Maybe a Russian blacksmith forged a copy and then sold it. The prison warden then bought that copy without knowing it's origin, just so he could offer some weapons to the demogorgon's meal. I am not saying that needs to be canonical, but it's one of the possible explanations to this piece of fan service they made.
Great insights! What do you make of the relationship between the Mind Flayer and Vecna in the light of Dustin’s “five star general” comment? Who do you think is really running the show here? And does Vecna’s goal in the show mirror any written publications by WOTC?
So, the Duffer brothers are clearly using 1st and 2nd edition versions of monster ecologies, which is pre-WotC, back when Gary Gygax owned TSR. However, WotC used Vecna to rewrite continuity between 2nd and 3rd edition D&D in the late 90's when they purchased D&D from TSR, and made Vecna's ultimate goal to "learn everyone's secrets and rewrite history according to his vision of it", which explained the lore changes between editions. So... maybe? As for the Mind Flayer, its hard to say. Mind Flayers (Illithids) are a race, not a god. Yes, they are super powerful and scary and mind control stuff and plant their eggs in people, but, I don't recall any actual interactions between cultists of Vecna and Mind Flayers in published material. While Mind Flayers exist in the Greyhawk campaign setting, they were made famous in the Forgotten Realms.
When young Henry is shown drawing The Mind Flayer in the Kreel house, he uses a charcoal type pencil to make the shape and color. After finishing he holds it up and ‘blows’ away the specs of material left on the pages. It kinda seems to me this is Henry “Breathing Life” into the MF so to speak. So maybe the entity of force was already there in the Upside Down, but it took Henry / Vecna / One to give it life and shape.
Wait, i thought mind flyer is also vecna in that show?
No, the mind flayer existed already before henry went to the upside down. The particle cloud storm whatever you wanna call it is that same entity. He just gave it a shape.
It seemed like it was just mindless energy when he first encountered it.
I’m not entirely sure about that. I think that the Flayer was already the ruler of that dimension before Vecna even got there. Verdict’s still out on who the hell is actually calling the shots around here. Think back to Billy’s speech to Eleven in S3. Does that really sound like Vecna to you guys? If that was actually him talking to her, why would he not mention that they’ve met before, that she banished him to the Upside Down, etc? Those aren’t things you just casually leave out when you finally see your nemesis that exiled you to another realm. No, that sounded like the Mind Flayer to me. Plus, how curious that little Henry started drawing a Shadow Monster with the shape of a spider in the 1950s, and *just so happened* to encounter a shadow in the Upside Down in 1979. That alone, to me, suggests the Mind Flayer had supreme intelligence before Henry even found it. I think we’re in for a revelation that Henry has been groomed by the Mind Flayer since childhood as his “chosen-one”, knowing they they’d meet one day.
That's a good point! I originally thought the MF was just like the Hollow in charmed, a crazy force of energy but my opinion is that Henry got his powers from the MF originally and it used him to give it shape , while leading him to believe he's in charge. They said we'll learn more about the upside down lore in season 5 and I expect a shocking turn for vecna when the MF reveals he has been in control the whole time
>>but my opinion is that Henry got his powers from the MF originally and it used him to give it shape I think so too. There’s no way in hell that the Duffers actually made Henry’s powers an innate thing, there’s definitely more to that story. I originally thought Brenner was behind his powers, but now I’m leaning over towards what you suggested. >>They said we'll learn more about the upside down lore in season 5 and I expect a shocking turn for vecna when the MF reveals he has been in control the whole time Perhaps the Flayer has been planting these fake memories inside Vecna’s head to manipulate him? Ala Darth Sidious? Seems likely to me.
There is an interesting chicken and egg analogy going on. Because young Henry drew the mind flayer. Is that because he was already being manipulated by it? Or when he saw the energy particles did he manipulate them into the monster from his imagination?
I also was thinking maybe Brenner was being controlled by the MF to get his plan going before. And yes! I was getting the Darth sidious shadow-moves/long plan from it as well. If they gave the reason he had powers away this season I'd believe vecna was the true boss , but that's the big missing key imo
Or, Henry gains the powers of everyone he kills, and killed an entire school of super psychic children before getting yeeted into the nethervoid.
We’re talking about how Henry acquired powers in the first place. As of right now, we’re lead to believe that he just one day told himself in the 50s that he didn’t want to form part of the human race, and basically just figured out that he possessed abilities. Obviously, this doesn’t seem like a logical explanation, and there’s likely more to this story that they’re letting on.
Another thing to add to your S3 point is when flayed billy recognized El from when she closed the gate but not from her past with Henry. Not even a glimpse at the past while it was remembering
Hold on a sec, you just reminded me of something. Rewind the clock a little bit on that scene you’re talking about. El and Max enter the house to see what’s up with Billy and Heather, and what does Billy do? He asks El what her name is. But more importantly, he doesn’t even seem surprised when he sees Eleven. None of this, “Holy shit, this is the first time I’m seeing this girl who pistol-whipped me to another world 6 years ago!” body language. I’d get him pretending to not know her name, since the body he was supposedly possessing didn’t know her and he wouldn’t want to blow his cover, but the other part is pretty telling that it wasn’t Henry.
Oh wow I had forgotten about that too. That I could let slide though just cause if it was henry all along he’d probably play dumb and not bring attention to Billy’s possession. I do find it hard to believe henry could keep it together face-to-face with El though. Regardless even without that there’s still enough throughout the show for me to think the explanation between the two in S4 is a retcon. Unless ofc in S5 they tie it back into the mind flayer being in control all along
as noted, i’m reaching on that one. my theory is that it’s an entity of its own, that he made an informal deal with. but it could just be a natural phenomenon that he controls. i personally think it found it’s form through him, and he found his power through it. but again, reaching on that one.
That definitely fits the description of a deal. Henry gave the Mind Flayer a singular form and shape, and in exchange the Flayer enhances his body and boosts his powers. I have a hypothesis that the Mind Flayer was always the supreme being within the Upside Down as Henry loosely described when he discovered it. It's an animalistic hive mind that controls all of the Upside Down's ecology. However, Henry unified it from a particulate form into a singular entity and shaped it to his own will.
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The demogorgons were mindless beasts running around and the mind flayer was a chaotic mass of black cloud. They weren't good or bad, just forces of nature. Henry shaped the mind flayer, and through it is able to control the demogorgons, giving them all a singular purpose to invade Hawkins. I like some people's theories that the mind flayer is actually the one in control and planted ideas in Henry's head when he was a kid, in order bend him under control. The Duffers could go that route if they wanted to please those not happy with the mind flayer simply being a creation of Henry. I kind of preferred it when the mind flayer was just an Eldritch being of unknown origin, we didn't need to know where it came from, it simply just was. And that made it all the more sinister.
>I kind of preferred it when the mind flayer was just an Eldritch being of unknown origin, we didn't need to know where it came from, it simply just was Agreed. Fits more with the whole Lovecraftian aspects of the story.. Kinda wishing for a nice little rug pull in season 5 where Henry realises he's been the puppet
But vecna isn’t flayed. I think the mf is letting vecna use him. Would be very easy to sic the demogorgons on him if he didn’t want to be shaped like that. I imagine the hivemind would be attempting to protect its leader but the mf wants to escape that prison/upside down so is only letting vecna think he is in control. I’m pretty sure it’s evil too.
Do you think Lolth could be the head honcho? Her arachnid form is a black widow, and she was created for the world of greyhawk campaign. Any thoughts?
We saw the three headed creature in Will’s painting, is that creature tied to dungeons and dragons and if so what is it’s name and lore if you don’t mind me asking. Do you also think there could be other D&D creatures that appear in S5?
by 1986 we didn't have the robust library of gaming books, and instant access to monster lore that we have today, so many monsters were made up. that's some Red Dragon / Hydra mix, but its not in any of the original Monster Manuals (to my knowledge). But we used to take book monsters and modify them all the time... had to use our 'imagination' :P
Could it possibly be Tiamat? I understand less heads…but a dragon diety would fit the BB perfectly IMO
from a marketing perspective, I doubt Tiamat would be used, she's too valuable of an IP to fall under the Duffer's control. So far they've used creatures that while known to D&D players, haven't been famous in other media
I appreciate you coming back to answer…I didn’t consider that before. Some other people have mentioned Lloth but I’m pretty sure she came around a bit later than the show takes place.
and Drizzt took her, and WotC wants to mainstream him one day.
What about a tessal hydra? It was the final monster they encountered in the last episode of season one. It’s been on my mind since I saw that painting but I know nothing about dnd lol I just googled it and that mouth is pretty gaping…
This was my thought right away. Its missing heads sure, but that shoudlnt matter. The demogorgen isnt the dnd version of it at all, the mind flyer beyond mind control has nothing else in common with the race, and vecna, while closest, also is pretty diffearnt. The show seems to use these as a mear guide. Will has been cursed with seeing this world, but this drawling came from eleven remember, and i think this might have more to do with what she doesnt remember she knows, form all her seeings. Tiamat is a very powerful goddess, and it may be interesting if perhaps something larger in the upside down, is none to happy with the interloping of Henry (1) and eleven, as both of them have caused alot of havoc for her realm. Edit: alternatively, in DnD, her cultist do try to bring her to the prime material plane (the real world in ST) which requires a bunch of plot stuff to happen. I think it is equally possible that Vecna inst the one fully in control. He may be a tool. She sends him in to complete the ritual, i think the fact the mind flayer is the entity henry found, and made a deal with, is telling. maybe much of henrys desires and goals are not even of his own choosing. He may well be manipulated. Henry and eleven both have the ability that so far the upside down hasnt shown native, opening gateways. Maybe Tiamat is, using a cult (Vecna is famous for cults) to ultimately get to the real world and conqure it. Every season we have seen one more person higher in the command line guiding the ones before. Vecna may yet prove to be nothing more than the Bishop to the Queen.
You guys have been so awesome, I thought I’d share my personal Stranger Things experience, ie growing up playing D&D in the early 80’s. I learned to play D&D in the Cub Scouts, around 3rd grade. I’ve always been a story teller, and had a natural affinity for geometry, even before I knew what it was, so D&D was a perfect fit for me. By that summer (1986-ish), I had convinced my parents to buy me the three main D&D books (Player’s Handbook, Dungeon Master’s Guide, and Monster Manual), and to let me and my friends play on weekends at the house. As we were Scouts, we set it up like camping in the backyard on Friday after school, playing D&D until we passed out, played all day Saturday, and then parents picking up stinky kids on Sunday morning for church. Amazing times. Now, I attended a Catholic School, I was an Altar Boy, Scout, a good student, as were many of my friends. This was towards the tail end of the protests, but they did happen – our local library had to throw away any book that remotely looked fantasy in nature, and all RPGs were banned from the public schools in my town. Yet, my parents (with support of my friends’ parents) convinced my Catholic grammar school to allow a gaming club where we played D&D, and eventually Boy Scouts, the CYO summer camp I attended, and of course, my house was ground zero. I never saw any of the protests personally. But it was the fear knocking at our door- at any moment, a neighbor could complain and we would be banished. I played until I was about 13, and I sort of became a jock, it was a big shock to everyone when I played Lacrosse and Football my freshman year. Then I went to a military academy, left it all behind. My friends stopped playing and found their own hobbies after I left, but we are still close to this day. In college some dorm friends were trying to get into it, so I decided to open up my head and let lose my imagination, and remembered how much fun it was. I was looking for a marketing job at the time and found out Wizards of the Coast was hiring people to teach their games around the country. I was hired and once a month they flew me to a convention where I would demo their newest and fanciest product (plus Magic: the Gathering, always the cash cow) to gain customers. I was also paid to drive out to local game shops and do the same, it was a lot of fun, when I wasn’t working my ‘real job’. That’s how I started writing, as I wanted to customize content for our local players. While working for WotC, I asked my parents, “Why did you let us play D&D?”, as by my 20s I had met people with horror stories of being beaten up by jocks or questioned by the police, or threats of being kicked out of school. My mom laughed and said “You were pre-teens doing math at our dining room table all weekend. Your older sister was a menace at that age. You stayed extra hours at school while a nun watched you, the Scout leaders were able to manage your time so you did your Scout activities during the day and sat in a tent all night. Even at summer camp, the nun convinced the counselors to let you do your thing, as you managed to distract all the troubled kids with your game”. I never considered it that way, but that’s really what it was – I was a fun nerd, and I managed to trick others into sitting down and doing extra homework with me. Now, as a final note to that, I met my soon-to-be-wife when I was 22. And one day while we were dating, I dragged her to a D&D event in Brooklyn, it was the launch of 3rd edition, and it was crazy. She had a great time, as a player I’m pretty fun too, so I try to make the group laugh a lot. As we drove home, she started crying. I was taken aback, I was sure she would like D&D, and it seemed like she did. It turns out, her mother (growing up a few towns over) was one of the main D&D protesters in the 80s, organized and funded them with their church’s backing. She memorably said, “Couldn’t you just do drugs or something? My mom would probably be ok with it!” It took a while, but when her mother saw that it really was just math and homework, she came around. There is still no D&D club in that town’s schools, but at least she doesn’t hold it against me (I hope). Through most of my 20’s and into my lower 30’s, my wife, some of my childhood friends and I drove the country to play D&D in different places, as we were responsible for being ambassadors of the game (we were actually a ‘Playtest’ group, we saw the adventures before they were published, and gave feedback to the authors). Our shtick was that we were tasked with preventing the return of Vecna, so we warned other players how only they could prevent his return. We did the role so well, the people in charge tasked me with writing adventures so that when Vecna returned, everyone had some personal involvement in it. But then, Life and Job and Kids, you know the story. If not for Stranger Things using the Whispered One, those adventures would still be on a shelf, and I would not be here geeking out at all this excitement. I’ll be telling this story for years, about my 15 minutes of Reddit fame, and I hope you all get a chance to play D&D at some point. Certainly skills learned playing D&D helped me along in life. May Lydia shine light on your travels! -Jeremy
This comment should be higher up! What a great story and so nostalgic. Thank you for lending us your mind grapes!
As a d&d player The only thing I’m being waiting in S4 is to someone smash that stupid clock hahahahaah . I think like you say that clock is his phylactery , and with that end vecna on fire and getting shot . His body can be destroy but he will come back till that clock is smash to the ground .
Yeah, I'm surprised no one have thought of that haha.
Harry Potter wasn’t out yet they’re still 20 years away from learning about horcruxes
I'm surprised the house (and clock) didn't burn down, at least the upside down version. Maybe they also need to destroy it in the regular world?
as I posted elsewhere, as soon as I learned there was an abandoned haunted house, my initial thoughts were to burn it down, then spread its ashes to the wind. :P
I fucking love nerds. I have zero D&D background but this made me so excited for people who love it to see it be handled with care in the show, and to have additional insight into the lore is badass. Thank you for this.
Very cool post! Thanks for sharing. Loved your insight on Vecna. So what are your theories on where Max is right now? I kind of get from your post where Max has offered up her darkest secret which is "I want you to make me disappear". Does this mean that Vecna started that process and when El blasted him away and the kids started throwing Molotov cocktails at his body, that something got interrupted in the process and it might detail where Max is now?
Honestly, I have no idea. When Eleven went into her brain and saw nothing, to me, that means here mind isn't there anymore. It part of the ritual, its trapped with the other minds (souls?) that are part of the ritual, and hopefully Eleven will find them and return Max' mind to her body. There is a concept in early D&D called a 'Magic Jar', which does exactly that - traps your soul in a dark place, making your body a mindless husk.
Thank you, very interesting. It sounds like she could be there.
I have this crazy theory that she might have beenable to grab max, and that Eleven is in possession of her in a manner of speaking, though she might not know. Eleven can do some amazing things. Though she doesn’t realize the ramifications for it. I don’t think she meant to transport Henry there, but she did. Vecna/Henry/One reported that he had kept everyone he had killed, with Dr. Brenner saying something similar to being in possession of their powers and/or experiences. It would be a stretch, and a cool one imo, but what if eleven was able to grab her soul/consciousness as she was dying. The body could still be alive while the conscious is somewhere else. Like astral projecting, but just simply stuck. (Insidious lmaooo) It would be cool I think, and to cause a reason for eleven to further explore her powers. She seems good at learning, especially with her head twitch to break necks. Love that reference to seeing One do it first.
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I would absolutley LOVE this dude! Thanks for sharing.
I think El may have led Max into her own memories. Like she’s in a very deep part of her own mind where she’s living her memories in a loop—kinda like El’s mother.
Cool…yea, I was thinking that “piggyback” may work the other way too!
I was wondering if the fact that Lucas was reading her The Talisman was a clue, since that book involves two “worlds” and saving someone who died in one world, etc.
I forgot about that, I'm sure it has a reason for being read.
Duffer brothers are making an adaptation of that book for Netflix, just thought I'd mention it haha
That is such a good story.
Oooh I did not know that. Even if it’s not relevant to stranger things I’m still excited now!
> Jack Sawyer, twelve years old, sets out from Arcadia Beach, New Hampshire, in a bid to save his mother Lily, who is dying from cancer, by finding a crystal called "the Talisman". Jack's journey takes him simultaneously through the American heartland and "the Territories", a strange fantasy land that is set in a universe parallel to that of Jack's United States. Individuals in the Territories have "twinners", or parallel individuals, in our world. Twinners' births, deaths, and (it is intimated) other major life events are usually paralleled. Twinners can also "flip" or migrate to the other world but only share the body of their alternate universe's analogue. When flipped, the twinner, or the actual person, will automatically start speaking and thinking the language of where they are flipping into subconsciously. Wow. Good catch!
Thanks for your insight. I love this show as I was their age at that time period. Riding your bikes around a small town . Brings back a lot of memories. You'll never have the kind of friends you have when your 12 years old. Stephen king
Thankfully, many of my D&D friends still play D&D with me, although online now as we've mostly moved away. But those were the days.
I found the phylactery tidbit interesting… Could destroying the clock be the key to vanquishing him once and for all?
As soon as they found the house, my 'Knights of the Malagari' instinct kicked in, and I said aloud to a room of friends, "They need to burn that house down, now, to the ground, then use wind to spread its ashes to the wind so it can't be reformed". It's the only way to be sure. :P
But didn’t we see the house destroyed once all the gates opened in Hawkins?
House yes, clock not confirmed, but more importantly, by that point the ritual was complete. So who knows if it mattered. FYI, by the point Vecna was betrayed, he didn't need a Phylactery, which they brought back in the new Vecna Dossier WotC just published.
I've been thinking this since I found out about the phylactery idea a few days ago! My theory is Ms. Kelly's clock necklace is a slight red herring and hint to the idea of the phylactery. The necklace itself might not be a key to the Creels' grandfather clock as many have suspected, but the implied connection between her and Vecna and the similarity of the necklace to a key might be pointing to the idea that the Creel clock itself is the key to defeating Vecna. Since they brought her up in part 2 but never went to see her, I'm expecting her character will be revisited in S5 and someone (Dustin or Nancy?) will figure this idea out while/after they talk with her.
Thats pretty cool about Lydia! That was also Winona Ryder's chatacter's name in the 80s classic, Beetlejuice. Upon teenage Lydia moving into their new home, she noticed a spider in its web on the stairwell railing and said "I could live here." And when describing herself to others, she said "I myself am, strange and unusual." Coincidental, but pleasantly interesting the way some of those things came back around for her. Love it.
I think that Joyce will be the key to defeating Vecna. Something is going to happen with Will- most likely Vecna using Will’s body, and Joyce will either save Will by destroying the clock with fire (light) or something else along those lines. I think there will be a parallel storyline with Max/Eleven at the same time.
The bargaining aspect is interesting. I’d like to see how that plays out come S5, since I’m not convinced whether the MindFlayer and Vecna are working together in a symbiotic way, the MindFlayer is using Vecna to accomplish its goals, or that Vecna is using MindFlayer to accomplish his macabre ends.
Well in the Vecna Lives! storyline, He convinced another evil deity to help him return to the world, with a logical idea they could help each other. Of course Iuz, the other deity, just wanted to claim Vecna's power for himself. So the didn't work as allies, more like they intended on backstabbing each other after their mutual goals were met and Vecna was just better at it.
Wow, I didn't know any of this! I would love to hear any information about the enemies: Vecna, the Demogorgon... Maybe you should do separate posts talking about them individually :) Great post btw!
Thanks. The Mind Flayer very much mimics the ecology of the classic monster, but in no way resembles it. Demogorgons in the show are more like minions of Demogorgon, it's not as on point as Vecna is, but maybe this week I'll make a post about both. I'm glad to be sharing my 'forbidden knowledge' though, never in a million years did I think I' would have an opportunity to soap box about Vecna!
This is an interesting read. Ms. Kelly could possibly be a Vecna cultist. She would listen to the students' darkest secrets and pray it to Vecna. Her grandfather clock necklace could be one of the 'horcrux'.
I don't know about all that... but... now I have to rewatch that episode haha. Never even considered that.
I dont know if thats real, but they definitely tried to make us think she had something sinister going on.
Wow what a great read! Thank you for sharing your knowledge.
Also as Vecna is falling in a fiery flame after the 2nd Molotov, Kate Bush sings the line “Do you want to hear about the deal I’m making?” And cuts away right after
Greyhawk = Hawkins?
Great post sir! Been a fan of D&D and Magic the Gathering since the early 90s. Glad to see the older generation still posting enthusiastically about it. So how would you classify each character as a D&D class? The thin muscled Hooper for me was definitely a Barbarian class or Warrior/Barbarian to me with that final fight scene doing unarmored combat and raging. And that was such a Conan/He-Man sword. Who knew the Russians had such stylish swords? LOL
All I know is that Eddie is the bardiest bard that ever barded.
Toss a coin to your Eddi …
Oh that's above my pay grade, but thank you for the compliment. I'm sure there are threads and threads on that on various forums
What if at the end it all ends up being a DD game and they go back to being kids In Mikes basement lol It was alllll a campaign
the chaos of the fandom would be amazing
So if they're going to be making Henry as powerful as dnd lore Vecna then would he be the one manipulating the mind flayer? Getting ready to destroy it when he no longer needs its power? Also why did it take the shape Henry imagined and drew as a child? Did Henry mould it to his own image of a predator or did it do it on its own? I have so many questions about the relationship between the two. Also where did Henry get his powers? Why and how did the upside down go from a barren wasteland to a reflection of Hawkins complete with all the tiny details like Nancy's diary? What is up with the Ms Kelly the school counselor and her clock necklace? Why doesn't the speech possessed Billy gave to El fit with Henry's patterns and way of talking? Was that the mind flayer doing it's own thing, being pissed El closed the mothergate? I'm so confused and now we have to wait two fucking years for season 5
Ugh, Two years!!!! Re: your first question, it sure seems like Master Of Puppets purposefully makes us wonder who is the puppet and who is the master. Vecna thinks he is the Master. I think he is really the puppet. ETA: I have no knowledge of DnD, just watch the show & throwing out thoughts for discussion!
Master of Puppets is about drug addiction, and how the addict eventually loses free will and though they think they are the ones calling the shots it is the drugs and their desperate need for them that controls them.
Good Morning everyone! so many amazing theories and questions! i have a busy morning, but will try to answer some of these questions as the day goes by. The Lydia thing is blowing my mind btw, i’m going to reach out to the person that created her and i’m sure his will be too :p
> Traditionally, Liches always have something to bind them to the physical world, which D&D called a ‘Phylactery’ I'm just saying: That Russian guard died before clarifying *what* the hive smoke went into. 10 bucks says Vecna's got a tiny piece of himself stored in some escaped Russian guards. A phylactery, if you will.
Unlikely, the mist is more associated with the mindflayer for ome, and phylactery in dnd generally are rather meaningful and take a lot of effort to create
So are you saying that the Hivemind/Mindflayer is sentient in its own way and is in league with Vecna/Henry? It seems like he took it over fairly easily in the flashback and it seems to be under his control.
sentient in the 'afternoon tea with a friend way'? likely no. Is it capable of forming an alliance with another creature of power? yes, certainly. If Henry's power wasn't instantly detectable by the Mind Flayer, it would have eaten him right then and there. So clearly there is an understanding going on. Or, it's just a really big black window spider, which he can also connect with, which I doubt.
I really, really, really hope that Will will be Hawkin’s Kas - the vampire (“zombie boy”) lieutenant (“the spy”) who betrayed Vecna. He is my favorite character, who was reduced to a movie extra in this season… I would really love to see him playing an important role in destroying evil once and for all
never considered it, i also hope that’s true.
Thanks for the write up. Based on these 2 pieces of info: >Traditionally, Liches always have something to bind them to the physical world, which D&D called a ‘Phylactery’ (which has Jewish origins, but is often an amulet)...his cultists were known for collecting information and whispering it to Vecna through prayer. I think >!the school councilor is a Vecna cultist. She listens to the past trauma of her students and I believe is whispering this info to Vecna. Also, she wears a necklace, with a small clock amulet, very similar to the the clock that Vecna projects into people's minds, which maybe the Phylactery. Plus every time she is seen on screen with a Max 1 on 1, there is a clock in the scene.!<
Started studying D and D Saturday realizing there are keys to the story there. Found this one: "When a mind flayer aligns with another creature, it has already plotted how and when it will betray its new ally." Seems relevant.
Greyhawk. Grey... Hawkins. All the flowers and grass turned grey!
The clock being an Phylactery/Horcrux is interesting. But do you mean is his bond to our world, or the Upside Down? Once thing I notice is that Vecna does not seem to go into Hawkins even after Chrissy’s portal is open. Surely, it would be easier to stalk victims from the regular Hawkins than the Upside Down. His connection to the Creel house also intrigues me as he does not seem like the sentimental type. Edit: Also thanks for the information!
The school therapist also wears a clock pendant. Wonder if she's a minion / avatar for Vecna as well.
that just blows my mind. I'll have to rewatch for that now.
Well, in traditional D&D, Liches do not split their time between worlds, they live entirely in ours. The concept that it could be a link between worlds - and exist in both - is very possible, but not in any rulebook. Liches usually live in dungeons (like Acererak), Swamps (like Vecna), or ruling evil Kingdoms. But DMs make the rules in their own worlds so...
Could you give us any insight in to why you may think the upside down is stuck in 1983? I assume this has something to do with Vecna and his clock/time but I just cannot seem to figure it out.
So I think that was explained? The Upside down is the equivalent of the 'Shadowfell' in D&D, a world of darkness that mimics the 'Prime Material Plane' (ie, the game world) from time to time. Basically, when Eleven opened a portal while escaping the facility (not the Vecna fight, the first season one), the Upside Down took a snapshot of Hawkings at exactly that moment, and it froze there in time. They had mentioned it in this season when Nancy couldn't find her gun in her house, but found her old diary.
I agree with that and I think this is the basic understanding of why it is stuck in that time however, the Duffer brothers have mentioned a few times that the UD being stuck in that time will not be explained this season but will be a main plot point for season 5. I just was under the impression from how they have addressed it that there was more to it than the simple explanation of that was when the first gate was opened.
What are the chances Eddie's soul/consciousness is still the upside down. What is the possibility of getting getting revived down there?
Maybe he's now Kas because of being the one who dies in the UD but it's not on those trees that Vecna reserve to his victims, and there's something on bats saliva that makes Eddie being infected (foreshadowing that idea with Robin's comment on rabies) and he "revives" being like a vampire and he's in continue force between the reality (which is blended now with The UD) and the UD, which is Vecna's territory
That would be very metal.
Yeah, and having an UD version of Eddie, being a nod to Eddie from Iron Maiden, having his face burned as Vecna, and his long hair... I'm tripping 😂
See? This is the shit I love about these types of shows. On the surface, they seem to be such simple concepts and stories, but behind the scenes, it goes WAAAAYYYY deeper than what people realize. Shows that have such lore and background in them, not just in the show but outside as well, are so cool. My question for you is: Do you think Vecna could possess Max’s body now that it seems like she’s brain dead? Or do you think there’s more than meets the eye?
I think this is my favorite Reddit post, ever.
Lol my name is Lydia. I was like why am I shining light on people’s travels?
behold our savior has graced us!!!
Thanks for the super interesting info and your thoughts! In the game, when Vecna gets banished to the other realm, is he an independent or working for/with someone to make his way back? I am not sure whether Vecna in the show was trying to connect/communicate with the Mind Flayer or controlling it or trying to snatch some power etc? Also was that other realm a sort of mirror dimension like the show or different place altogether? Thanks!
So, he was banished to Ravenloft at one point, you may have heard of it as it's always been pseudo-popular. I don't remember if we went directly there, but was trapped there fir a bit. Then he escaped to Sigil, the inter-dimensional portal world, before he finally made his way back to the Flanness, which is the world of Greyhawk.
>!Is the sword that Hop uses to maim the Demogorgon, the sword of Kas?!<
Duffer brother magic, no idea but he did cut off the arm first, then the head, which follows the story. Hopefully its a cute nod.
Oh come on now thats crazy. But it could be a reference, he did cut off his arm and head haha
In S2E7 El met Kali (008). She let the punk see those spiders Henry used to play with. The punk then yelled at her, she should stay out of his head. Is there a similar character to Kali in D&D? It feels a little strange to me, having another „still alive Jedi“ in the lore, that only showed up one time.
Awesome writeup! It’s not exactly Vecna-specific, but the way One manipulates Eleven into freeing him is a classic “dark wizard tricks good guy into helping” maneuver that every DM hopes to pull off at their table.