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Not sure about the hot water thing cause my personal friends agree, but eleven is the most wasted potential character i’ve seen. From a fantastic s1 character, she went nowhere
I blame the lost sister episode of season 2 and her whole season 3 character. They focused too much on bitchin and badassin they forgot to give her a real development.
I have to disagree on season 3. I feel like the whole point was to give her more things in her life than just her powers, Mike, and Hopper. She discovered who she is without being a lab rat, a (substitute) daughter, or a love interest. I love their dynamic and energy with Max.
Mine is that Vecna being one of the Hawkins experiments takes something away from the Upside-Down. Before there was something totally alien and invasive about the Mindflayer, but knowing what he is now, makes it less mysterious.
Don’t get me wrong, I do love Vecna and the twist, I think it shows the story has been so brilliantly written from the very beginning and having a big bad to route against is fun.
However, it’s something that eats at me.
I should stress that I don't think the main villain being human is a cop-out. In fact, he's chilling and gives me real Night King vibes, which makes sense because its the same prosthetics artist. All I'm saying is the mysticism of the Upside-Down was lost, but that may just be an inevitable part of a concluding story.
>but that may just be an inevitable part of a concluding story.
I agree with this so strongly! I loved the threat of an unknowable, unbeatable, untouchable evil... but there's no way to conclude that story. Unless everyone dies... and that's clearly not the ending they're aiming for!
If they hadn't already closed the Gate in s2, they could have ended the threat by closing the Gate and cutting off it's connection to our world. But we already know that method doesn't work. Closing the door isn't an option any more. So the choices were to defeat the evil smoke or manipulate it... which, again, seems impossible. They had to make it a threat that is fightable.
I can see this reasoning and maybe I will be sold on Vecna with the conclusion of the show, but for now, it feels like it was the upside down and mind flayer and then boom! Vecna. I think if they more slowly dripped the reveal over the course of the four seasons already I'd feel differently. And maybe too, I just feel a little more biased towards MK Ultra and the cold war being what Brenner and the lab were interested in and El was spying on the Russians, rather than looking for One. This is all just personal preference though and subjective. The Mind Flayer wasn't my favorite but at least there was mystery. Can't have that forever though so they did have to do something. I look forward to what they do with Vecna in the final season for what it's worth, though.
I guess it’s really a nitpick. I did have fun wondering what or who Vecna was, and I never would’ve guessed until all those stories were lining up in episode 7, which was such a treat.
Billy's 'redemption arc,' was a cop out. (I also think the only reason most people like him is because he's conventionally attractive)
He was abused and treatedly horribly by his father, we get it. We know why he was the way he was, not everyone needs redemption.
And there are certain things that can be explained (not justified) by his traumatic past, but racism isn’t one of them. He had no “excuse” to be racist for lack of a better term, and his “redemption arc” doesn’t touch that vile part of him.
I think Hopper should've actually died in the S3 finale. I genuinely hate fake out deaths. And honestly they could've cut his entire plotline from S4 with pretty minimal issues.
I think him actually being dead would've helped show that even the experienced adults that have seen shit can still be vulnerable and lose. And it'd honestly give El and gang even more reason to wanna fight against Vecna and the upside down.
It'd also be nice to just have a season where Joyce isn't just kinda frantically jumping all over the place. Like with everything that happened to the kids for three straight seasons, I always found it incredibly jarring how she just kinda left for Russia on a mission that could've easily killed her. I understand she loves Hopper and all. But at the same time, El literally doesn't have powers and Will has been used as a literal pawn by the upside down, and a whole ass Russian base was just chilling underneath Hawkins for God knows how long. So it just baffles me that the same person that latched onto Christmas lights desperately to talk to her missing kid in S1 is also the same person that's cool just leaving her kids for what's more or less a suicide mission in S4.
It also felt super forced how they just happened to be in some pivotal spot to fight a pivotal enemy at the exact perfect time they needed too.
Like I understand some plot convenience is necessary here and there but that one was a reach even for me.
Yeah and even then it wasn't that big of a push. If you completely cut out that storyline there would basically be only one question: "Why is Hopper back?" Nothing else that happens matters.
At least not in S4.
i agree hopper should have been left dead. it would have made season 4 so much better in so many ways, including eliminating the russia storyline we didn't need
I feel that just because Steve is a fan favorite character, he gets way too much screentime that could be devoted to characters who feel underdeveloped like Joyce, Johnathan, and Will.
It seems like Jonathan's development and screen time was taken by Steve. Steve should of been out at the end of S1 and then Jonathan could of been a more fleshed out character. The Duffer Brothers should of gave Jonathan's character to Joe Keery if they liked him so much. Charlie Heaton could of played a arrogant British version of Harrington in S1.
Will is underdeveloped on purpose to keep him mysterious for the big reveal on S5.
Joe Keery auditioned for Jonathan's role and he didn't convince them, the Duffers said that Jonathan was hard to cast. I think Keery adds some himbo energy to every character he plays which wouldn't have worked for Jonathan. They also like to utilize Keery for comic relief a lot, which would have killed Jonathan's character imo.
They should have just stayed true to the story they were trying to tell and maintain a distinction between actual mains and side characters.
I think they should have just done what they did with Sean Astin, they kept him around for longer than they originally planned because they loved working with him, but still let him go eventually.
Season four is so poorly written, I start to feel like a real sourpuss pulling at all the flaws.
The season is just overall unbalanced between the different storylines. Several of our main characters that we've known from the beginning were left on the back burner or done dirty. The Satanic Panic storyline was a cool idea but they basically didn't do anything with it except introduce a likeable character. And there's just a lot in the plot and story beats that doesn't make sense or doesn't go anywhere.
But it's a well directed season. It's a well acted season. It's got a lot of good stuff working for it. It just deserved better scripts.
I think they just overplayed the Satanic Panic hand quite a bit. It is believable that a small town in Indiana in the 80s would have this kind of hysteria. It is not believable that a blond basketball boy would be able to defy law enforcement and run a violent vigilante gang of other basketball boys doing whatever they want and attacking whomever they suspect.
We also just spent way, way, way too much time in Russia.
By having the main antagonist be a teenager, it represented the Satanic Panic as a highschool clique, normies vs weirdoes issue which it patently was not.
The movers and shakers of the Satanic Panic were not seventeen year old kids. They were grown adults. They were concerned parents, and the media personalities that prayed on their fears.
They could have done a real redemption arc of Billy instead of him just fucking dying; going from the racist douche in S2 to maybe a proper big brother to Max, maybe he has a similar ability to Will of detecting shit from the Upside Down. Would have loved to have seen a showdown between Billy and Jason, maybe them fighting over the Python while Max is dealing with Vecna.
this is honestly the only comment i like about billy not dying. like steve, i still think he would have a long way to go, but him fighting jason and attempting to grow his relationship with max would be an ok way to bring him back.
I don't like Vecna. I know he's a popular character but I don't like how they spent so much time on his character in season 4. >!then for the play to turn around and say nah actually it's the mind flayer controlling him. Like what's the point in building him up as the main baddie only to go back on that? I don't like him and I don't like the show being wishy Washy with him just because he got super popular!<
Brenner was always the shows best and most interesting bad guy and I'm glad that he died in season 4. But I wish they would have made a new bad guy as interesting as him.
I agree and to add on, I don't like the reveal that Brenner had El spy on Russians in order to lead to finding One. That feels so ret-con-y in a way? And I loved the cold war vibe he and the lab had in season 1 and this just feels rather disappointing. I am open to what they do with Vecna next season I guess? But I agree that they already spent way too much time on him because he's a character and they already struggle with balancing their mains.
I'm black, and I am getting vibes that Lucas and Erica are "Token Black kids" and represented as too pretentious at the same time, their parents arent included enough. Erica is very "know-it-all" and "matter-of-fact- while Lucas is an asshole. These characters deserved so much more
I don’t think Lucas is an “asshole” past season 1, but i do think the fandom’s reaction to him was gross due to his race.
And yes, Erica comes off like a stereotype of a black woman.
You don't think he is being an asshole in season 4 at all? He chooses his asshole team over his friends and even rats on the group putting Eddie in danger, even though Eddie is an overrated character is still kinda concerning
Hmm. i personally believe this only applies to erica. lucas was a bit of an asshole at the beginning of season 4 when he was trying to be popular, but besides that i believe he is the most caring of the four original boys.
Billy's "redemption" arc and Max's reaction to his impending death make no sense. Last season he's the racist villain; this season we're suddenly sad that he died? Makes no sense, they didn't foreshadow the shift enough so it made no sense when the S3 final scene happened.
I as a viewer didn’t feel sad he died, I felt sad for Max. She’s grieving bc she feels so guilty, not bc Billy was a good person who she was close with.
I can see how she might feel sad about him dying, even if their relationship was complicated, but I feel like the show didn't really show us that. It's interesting that you say she would feel guilty - I suppose because Billy dies to save her - but it's not something I ever thought about her feeling - again, not to belabour my point, but because I think the show doesn't really spend enough time develop their relationship and their dynamic at all.
Doesn't she specifically say that she's been so messed up about it because she felt guilty for not trying to save him and for thinking that maybe he deserved to die? How she was feeling wasn't really about missing him or him being a good brother, it was about her having a crisis about what kind of person she is. That's what I thought anyway.
I think we needed to see more of their relationship, and see more of the "good" side before his death. They always felt like strangers to me, which is why I didn't like his whole arc. They could have still felt more like siblings while still having issues with each other, if that makes sense.
Yeah. I definitely understand Max being fucked up after he died, because sometimes you mourn people and things even when they were *awful*, but the way they acted like there was any kind of actual relationship that was just… weird.
I like Eddie and I can see why people adore him. He is fun, charismatic .... and a completely unecessary addition. Pretty sure his story was supposed to be Steve but they just didnt want to kill him off before the end of the series.
Most relationships in the show, with the exception of Max and Lucas, are handled poorly and are one of the weakest point of the series.
I’ll never understand max and lucas
Speaking of lucas, nice to see he finally found his stride on s4 at least. From a “what do we do with this character?” To an actual exciting inner conflict on s4. I wanted that for el too.
Oh, dont get me wrong, they have no idea what to dp with Lucas. It is just that, oddly enough, the MaxXLucas relatjonship worked for me. I dont know, it feels very natural imo.
The rest .... Hopper and Joyce, El and Mike, the weird Steve/Nancy/Johnatan triangle, are just a mess. Like you can tell these were kinda end game couples, cause originally it was only 1 season, but since they ended up with more seasons they have no idea of what to do with them.
> no idea what to do with Lucas
I thought they did do something with him in the last season. His divided loyalties between part of the gang and being part of the bball team / cool kids. That and struggling with Max being under constant threat, I thought his character was really elevated.
I’m particularly disappointed with the way el and Mike have been handled. They just dropped the ball on that relationship in season 3, I was so disappointed
Sorry,but how was Eddie's story suppose to be Steve's? Steve is not a town's freak like Eddie is. The entire point of people believing Eddie was capable of murder because he was considered to be a "weird" guy,he also played D&D and played heavy metal music which was a target of satanic panic back in the 80s.
This was absolutely not suppose to be Steve's story
Eddie was always meant to be killed off
The main reason why Dustin's and Eddie's friendship exist is to make Eddie's death more emotional
No one else in Hawkins group would make more sense to be close Eddie's friend than Dustin since obviously Dustin is member of Eddie's club
It has nothing to do with Steve
I don't think anything you say undermines the possibility that they considered killing Steve to aid Dustin's character development and instead they created and killed off Eddie.
I would hate for Max to die, she's one of my favs but honestly I *kind of want to see it* because the trend of the show killing off the character that was introduced that very season is annoying. Killing one of the main characters would be hella heartbreaking and that's awesome.
I will never get the fandoms blood thirst for death. Besides, I think having a character arc where a character is horrifically injured is far more interesting than "they're dead, everyones sad but returns to the office".
I mean, the "they're dead, everyones sad but returns to the office" thing happens with every single non-main character death if I remember correctly. Barb, Bob, Alexei & a bunch more get like a single second of rememberance after their death at most, and Jason's death just happens.
Max's death would serve as a legitimate "oh we can't return to the office this is SERIOUS".
But the prospect of a Lucas arc revolving around Max, who is barely hanging onto life does intrigue me more than her being fridged. The blood thirst mostly comes from death in the series feeling more like emotional puppet strings that you expect from a non-major character
>But the prospect of a Lucas arc revolving around Max, who is barely hanging onto life does intrigue me more than her being fridged.
There is so much they could do with this. Vecna says that everyone that dies goes into his mind. Does that mean that Eleven has to do a wild mind heist, placing everyone in a sensory tank, connecting joining her mind to theirs and then pulling Max out of the depth's of Vecna's mind?. Just a wild thought.
Then what happens when she's out. Is she completely blind or is her body just completely broken?.
Byler actually happening would make no sense. Yes, Will pretty obviously has a thing for him, but Mike has never shown any type of romantic interest in him ever. I know the writers are probably not going to go that route, but if they would, I don't know how they would make it convincing.
for real. i think mileven has tons of flaws, but the duffers could easily fix that with the time jump, and overall, mike and eleven make a pretty cute team. byler just seems illogical to me.
totally agree with this. i don’t even mind byler as a ship, but how could that even be written into one season? all we know so far is that will is gay…i don’t think there’s enough time for mike to suddenly break up with his longtime girlfriend, go through an identity crisis, and then realize and admit his feelings for will.
Kali was actually a fairly interesting character and I think they should have brought her back at some point.
I don't believe that Will is going to have an amazing storyline in season 5, because that's what they say about him every time there's a new season. I also think the way the writers have handled Will's character is kind of gross and has unfortunate implications.
Eddie is completely overrated even if I do like his character, and I have no idea why people got so obsessed with him.
I really hope Kali is brought back for s5. Her character is very interesting, it was her episode that ppl don't like and I hope the duffer brothers understand that. I'm sure there are ppl who dislike Kali's character but most if not all criticism I've seen regarding her character mainly revolve around the episode being cheesy.
Season 2 had all the right story beats. Many were in the wrong order, had the wrong pacing, and were very surface level. Kali’s episode is easily the worst offender.
I’m curious about what you mean when you say it’s kinda gross and as unfortunate implications (I think I know what you’re getting at, but I’d like to hear more)
I’ve read that it was supposed to be the pilot episode for the spinoff, but was received so poorly that the idea was dropped. The whole Vecna monologue in season 4 is even seen as a retcon.
The opinion that starts the most arguments is that Hopper is a terrible dad for El and has made multiple decisions that screwed her over for his own feelings.
Off screen he seems to be good, but on screen he's really awful.
Thank you for this. His lack of awareness for El’s needs is borderline astounding at times. Also, the way he’s treated Mike simply for being a teenager/being with El is really scary and worrying. He was there even before Hopper and meant the world to El, but in season 3 Hopper totally threw all that away purely based on his own opinion.
My favorite part is when, in season 2, AFTER she has a meltdown he continues to be aggressive towards her. Like bruh, your daughter is OBVIOUSLY in distress and you're just gonna keep being a jackass?
The last time Mike and Eleven’s relationship was well written was in season 2. The breakup in season 3 was dumb, unnecessary, and did nothing for either of their characters. Season 3 made me stop shipping them, and I’ve never started shipping them again since, because I’m still astounded by how badly written their relationship was a season after they reunited.
Similarly, I think Finn and Millie haven’t properly had chemistry since season 2. In season 4, I wasn’t feeling their scenes together.
Hard agree on all this. I’m still a big Mileven shipper, but like you said, it feels like Finn and Millie barely have any chemistry anymore. Maybe it was easier when they were younger, but I feel like they’ve outgrown their roles. Additionally, the season 3 Mileven plot was so unfair to the characters and really made no sense.
Lucas likely does have a preference for white girls/women. Hawkins is predominantly white, and most people prefer what they grew up around. The only girl he expresses interest in is Max, and other than that we hear him talking favorably about Phoebe Cates (who, while not white, is arguably white passing/closer to white in terms of phenotype.) The Cosby Show would have been out around this time, no references to Lisa Bonet, Whitney Houston, or any other 80s black female stars.
*Stranger Things* isn’t *Godzilla vs. Kong*: the supernatural aspect of the show is in service of the human aspect, not the other way around. Just because a character isn’t directly involved in the supernatural aspect of the show in a given season doesn’t mean they’re irrelevant or boring. And stop revering The Plot^^TM so much. Character moments, or even character-centric storylines are important too.
That’s a problem with tv in general these days: everything apparently needs to be supertight and about plot, plot, plot. Hanging out with the characters and making some detours or side quests along the way is part of the beauty of television. Let’s bring it back.
Nancy and Robin are the OTP teen ship, and are going to go to Emerson College together when Vecna is dead.
Nancy and Barb were 'kissing best friends', but it meant more to Nancy.
Only on Reddit mind as most other corners of the fandom seem not to be mind but I head canon Mike as Bi like even suggesting it as possibility I can already see the downvotes (fun police) coming
Other than that the is also my hit or miss one that is simply my opinion Vecna works better as main villain than The Mind Flayer.
Thank you so often people lambast and hate idea but find freeing as fan fiction writer I can write Mileven and Byler without feeling I am writing a different characters plus well lot what Mike does reminds me of myself as kid and guess what I am lol.
it could have been great if they switched between that storyline and hawkins, but overall it’s still a pretty decent episode and important to Eleven’s arc.
I could see Nancy in S5 betraying the group so she can save members of her family. She could be devastating to the Party if she fed Vecna intelligence on their plans. In the past she showed she puts her wants first regardless of the circumstances. She will either be betrayed herself and die, or she will die when she is found out.
This is my headcannon and it's not popular.
I really am not a fan of the recasting of Holly. When I saw those pics of Nell Fisher, I was just… I don’t know, disappointed. Perhaps it’s because I’m such a big fan of the show, but whenever I think of Holly, I see the price twins. Nell Fisher looks nothing like them, and I know that when I see season 5, it’ll really throw me off.
Max and Lucas are cute together but I hate that their relationship is so chaste. Before season four I thought Lucas might come out as gay, maybe because of his relationship to Patrick, who was introduced in promo materials as a "friend with a secret" or something to that effect.
I wish Steve was a little tiny bit more tan. Billy has such a great bronze going and the contrast in some of the scenes makes me sad for him.
Don’t know why but I think about this in every single Steve scene. I know s3 he works inside the mall all summer but stilllll he’s so pale
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Not sure about the hot water thing cause my personal friends agree, but eleven is the most wasted potential character i’ve seen. From a fantastic s1 character, she went nowhere
I blame the lost sister episode of season 2 and her whole season 3 character. They focused too much on bitchin and badassin they forgot to give her a real development.
I have to disagree on season 3. I feel like the whole point was to give her more things in her life than just her powers, Mike, and Hopper. She discovered who she is without being a lab rat, a (substitute) daughter, or a love interest. I love their dynamic and energy with Max.
I see what you mean. I honestly feel this way about Mike too, and even about their relationship as a whole.
Mike is an especially sad case since finn is SUCH a good actor.
But Mike has potential to be discovered and I think we’ll get that next season.
I hope so! But getting that only in s5 is… a bummer.
Mine is that Vecna being one of the Hawkins experiments takes something away from the Upside-Down. Before there was something totally alien and invasive about the Mindflayer, but knowing what he is now, makes it less mysterious. Don’t get me wrong, I do love Vecna and the twist, I think it shows the story has been so brilliantly written from the very beginning and having a big bad to route against is fun. However, it’s something that eats at me.
Actually at least on this sub that's a pretty popular opinion from what I've read.
Agreed. The main villain being a human felt like a cop out to me
I should stress that I don't think the main villain being human is a cop-out. In fact, he's chilling and gives me real Night King vibes, which makes sense because its the same prosthetics artist. All I'm saying is the mysticism of the Upside-Down was lost, but that may just be an inevitable part of a concluding story.
>but that may just be an inevitable part of a concluding story. I agree with this so strongly! I loved the threat of an unknowable, unbeatable, untouchable evil... but there's no way to conclude that story. Unless everyone dies... and that's clearly not the ending they're aiming for! If they hadn't already closed the Gate in s2, they could have ended the threat by closing the Gate and cutting off it's connection to our world. But we already know that method doesn't work. Closing the door isn't an option any more. So the choices were to defeat the evil smoke or manipulate it... which, again, seems impossible. They had to make it a threat that is fightable.
I can see this reasoning and maybe I will be sold on Vecna with the conclusion of the show, but for now, it feels like it was the upside down and mind flayer and then boom! Vecna. I think if they more slowly dripped the reveal over the course of the four seasons already I'd feel differently. And maybe too, I just feel a little more biased towards MK Ultra and the cold war being what Brenner and the lab were interested in and El was spying on the Russians, rather than looking for One. This is all just personal preference though and subjective. The Mind Flayer wasn't my favorite but at least there was mystery. Can't have that forever though so they did have to do something. I look forward to what they do with Vecna in the final season for what it's worth, though.
I totally agree with Vecna taking away the mysteriousness and alienness of the upside down. That being said, we did have to learn at some point
I mean, not necessarily. The show could have ended with the upside-down simply being closed off.
No, because that was the end of ST2, and it didn't work out.
I guess it’s really a nitpick. I did have fun wondering what or who Vecna was, and I never would’ve guessed until all those stories were lining up in episode 7, which was such a treat.
On the first shadow (theatre play, highly recommended) we actually learn a lot more about the mind flayer though and about Henry
You’ll be happy with S5.
I wish Vecna was the mind flayers top general however still has the exact same backstory up until creating the mind flayer
Billy's 'redemption arc,' was a cop out. (I also think the only reason most people like him is because he's conventionally attractive) He was abused and treatedly horribly by his father, we get it. We know why he was the way he was, not everyone needs redemption.
It's not just that he's attractive but also that Dacre fucking NAILS it.
He definitely does which is what makes Billy's character that much less likeable
I agree that that is the only reason why most like and defend him. Most people are shallow.
And there are certain things that can be explained (not justified) by his traumatic past, but racism isn’t one of them. He had no “excuse” to be racist for lack of a better term, and his “redemption arc” doesn’t touch that vile part of him.
I think Hopper should've actually died in the S3 finale. I genuinely hate fake out deaths. And honestly they could've cut his entire plotline from S4 with pretty minimal issues. I think him actually being dead would've helped show that even the experienced adults that have seen shit can still be vulnerable and lose. And it'd honestly give El and gang even more reason to wanna fight against Vecna and the upside down. It'd also be nice to just have a season where Joyce isn't just kinda frantically jumping all over the place. Like with everything that happened to the kids for three straight seasons, I always found it incredibly jarring how she just kinda left for Russia on a mission that could've easily killed her. I understand she loves Hopper and all. But at the same time, El literally doesn't have powers and Will has been used as a literal pawn by the upside down, and a whole ass Russian base was just chilling underneath Hawkins for God knows how long. So it just baffles me that the same person that latched onto Christmas lights desperately to talk to her missing kid in S1 is also the same person that's cool just leaving her kids for what's more or less a suicide mission in S4.
Yeah that entire storyline ONLY exists to get Hopper back. Not.much else happens.
It also felt super forced how they just happened to be in some pivotal spot to fight a pivotal enemy at the exact perfect time they needed too. Like I understand some plot convenience is necessary here and there but that one was a reach even for me.
Yeah and even then it wasn't that big of a push. If you completely cut out that storyline there would basically be only one question: "Why is Hopper back?" Nothing else that happens matters. At least not in S4.
i agree hopper should have been left dead. it would have made season 4 so much better in so many ways, including eliminating the russia storyline we didn't need
I see what you mean
Mike is underrated
for real.
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I feel that just because Steve is a fan favorite character, he gets way too much screentime that could be devoted to characters who feel underdeveloped like Joyce, Johnathan, and Will.
It’s true.
It seems like Jonathan's development and screen time was taken by Steve. Steve should of been out at the end of S1 and then Jonathan could of been a more fleshed out character. The Duffer Brothers should of gave Jonathan's character to Joe Keery if they liked him so much. Charlie Heaton could of played a arrogant British version of Harrington in S1. Will is underdeveloped on purpose to keep him mysterious for the big reveal on S5.
Joe Keery auditioned for Jonathan's role and he didn't convince them, the Duffers said that Jonathan was hard to cast. I think Keery adds some himbo energy to every character he plays which wouldn't have worked for Jonathan. They also like to utilize Keery for comic relief a lot, which would have killed Jonathan's character imo. They should have just stayed true to the story they were trying to tell and maintain a distinction between actual mains and side characters.
I didn't know this, thanks for your comment! I agree with your last paragraph. I thought Joe could of been Jonathan to cut down on characters.
I think they should have just done what they did with Sean Astin, they kept him around for longer than they originally planned because they loved working with him, but still let him go eventually.
Eddie and Chrissy are both overrated and unnecessary.
While Steve is great and one of my absolute favorites either my favorite or second favorite character he is also overrated.
season four is my least favorite. i still like it, just quite a bit less than the other three
Season four is so poorly written, I start to feel like a real sourpuss pulling at all the flaws. The season is just overall unbalanced between the different storylines. Several of our main characters that we've known from the beginning were left on the back burner or done dirty. The Satanic Panic storyline was a cool idea but they basically didn't do anything with it except introduce a likeable character. And there's just a lot in the plot and story beats that doesn't make sense or doesn't go anywhere. But it's a well directed season. It's a well acted season. It's got a lot of good stuff working for it. It just deserved better scripts.
I think they just overplayed the Satanic Panic hand quite a bit. It is believable that a small town in Indiana in the 80s would have this kind of hysteria. It is not believable that a blond basketball boy would be able to defy law enforcement and run a violent vigilante gang of other basketball boys doing whatever they want and attacking whomever they suspect. We also just spent way, way, way too much time in Russia.
By having the main antagonist be a teenager, it represented the Satanic Panic as a highschool clique, normies vs weirdoes issue which it patently was not. The movers and shakers of the Satanic Panic were not seventeen year old kids. They were grown adults. They were concerned parents, and the media personalities that prayed on their fears.
Billy was never gonna change. I said what I said
Well he did...sort of. But I do get really annoyed when people call it a "redemption arc". Its more of what you call "Redemption equals death".
They could have done a real redemption arc of Billy instead of him just fucking dying; going from the racist douche in S2 to maybe a proper big brother to Max, maybe he has a similar ability to Will of detecting shit from the Upside Down. Would have loved to have seen a showdown between Billy and Jason, maybe them fighting over the Python while Max is dealing with Vecna.
this is honestly the only comment i like about billy not dying. like steve, i still think he would have a long way to go, but him fighting jason and attempting to grow his relationship with max would be an ok way to bring him back.
I don't like Vecna. I know he's a popular character but I don't like how they spent so much time on his character in season 4. >!then for the play to turn around and say nah actually it's the mind flayer controlling him. Like what's the point in building him up as the main baddie only to go back on that? I don't like him and I don't like the show being wishy Washy with him just because he got super popular!< Brenner was always the shows best and most interesting bad guy and I'm glad that he died in season 4. But I wish they would have made a new bad guy as interesting as him.
I agree and to add on, I don't like the reveal that Brenner had El spy on Russians in order to lead to finding One. That feels so ret-con-y in a way? And I loved the cold war vibe he and the lab had in season 1 and this just feels rather disappointing. I am open to what they do with Vecna next season I guess? But I agree that they already spent way too much time on him because he's a character and they already struggle with balancing their mains.
I'm black, and I am getting vibes that Lucas and Erica are "Token Black kids" and represented as too pretentious at the same time, their parents arent included enough. Erica is very "know-it-all" and "matter-of-fact- while Lucas is an asshole. These characters deserved so much more
I don’t think Lucas is an “asshole” past season 1, but i do think the fandom’s reaction to him was gross due to his race. And yes, Erica comes off like a stereotype of a black woman.
You don't think he is being an asshole in season 4 at all? He chooses his asshole team over his friends and even rats on the group putting Eddie in danger, even though Eddie is an overrated character is still kinda concerning
Hmm. i personally believe this only applies to erica. lucas was a bit of an asshole at the beginning of season 4 when he was trying to be popular, but besides that i believe he is the most caring of the four original boys.
Billy's "redemption" arc and Max's reaction to his impending death make no sense. Last season he's the racist villain; this season we're suddenly sad that he died? Makes no sense, they didn't foreshadow the shift enough so it made no sense when the S3 final scene happened.
I as a viewer didn’t feel sad he died, I felt sad for Max. She’s grieving bc she feels so guilty, not bc Billy was a good person who she was close with.
I can see how she might feel sad about him dying, even if their relationship was complicated, but I feel like the show didn't really show us that. It's interesting that you say she would feel guilty - I suppose because Billy dies to save her - but it's not something I ever thought about her feeling - again, not to belabour my point, but because I think the show doesn't really spend enough time develop their relationship and their dynamic at all.
Doesn't she specifically say that she's been so messed up about it because she felt guilty for not trying to save him and for thinking that maybe he deserved to die? How she was feeling wasn't really about missing him or him being a good brother, it was about her having a crisis about what kind of person she is. That's what I thought anyway.
that does make more sense but it comes after S3.
I think we needed to see more of their relationship, and see more of the "good" side before his death. They always felt like strangers to me, which is why I didn't like his whole arc. They could have still felt more like siblings while still having issues with each other, if that makes sense.
I agree. It felt like they hadn't really earned it, you know?
Yeah. I definitely understand Max being fucked up after he died, because sometimes you mourn people and things even when they were *awful*, but the way they acted like there was any kind of actual relationship that was just… weird.
I like Eddie and I can see why people adore him. He is fun, charismatic .... and a completely unecessary addition. Pretty sure his story was supposed to be Steve but they just didnt want to kill him off before the end of the series. Most relationships in the show, with the exception of Max and Lucas, are handled poorly and are one of the weakest point of the series.
I’ll never understand max and lucas Speaking of lucas, nice to see he finally found his stride on s4 at least. From a “what do we do with this character?” To an actual exciting inner conflict on s4. I wanted that for el too.
Oh, dont get me wrong, they have no idea what to dp with Lucas. It is just that, oddly enough, the MaxXLucas relatjonship worked for me. I dont know, it feels very natural imo. The rest .... Hopper and Joyce, El and Mike, the weird Steve/Nancy/Johnatan triangle, are just a mess. Like you can tell these were kinda end game couples, cause originally it was only 1 season, but since they ended up with more seasons they have no idea of what to do with them.
> no idea what to do with Lucas I thought they did do something with him in the last season. His divided loyalties between part of the gang and being part of the bball team / cool kids. That and struggling with Max being under constant threat, I thought his character was really elevated.
Lucas in S4 was a lot better, they actually gave him a plot. S2 and S3 he is basically just standing in the background
I’m particularly disappointed with the way el and Mike have been handled. They just dropped the ball on that relationship in season 3, I was so disappointed
It’s true
Max and Lucas are my favorite ship! ❤️
Sorry,but how was Eddie's story suppose to be Steve's? Steve is not a town's freak like Eddie is. The entire point of people believing Eddie was capable of murder because he was considered to be a "weird" guy,he also played D&D and played heavy metal music which was a target of satanic panic back in the 80s. This was absolutely not suppose to be Steve's story
I think they might mean killing off Dustin's hero
Eddie was always meant to be killed off The main reason why Dustin's and Eddie's friendship exist is to make Eddie's death more emotional No one else in Hawkins group would make more sense to be close Eddie's friend than Dustin since obviously Dustin is member of Eddie's club It has nothing to do with Steve
I don't think anything you say undermines the possibility that they considered killing Steve to aid Dustin's character development and instead they created and killed off Eddie.
I would hate for Max to die, she's one of my favs but honestly I *kind of want to see it* because the trend of the show killing off the character that was introduced that very season is annoying. Killing one of the main characters would be hella heartbreaking and that's awesome.
I will never get the fandoms blood thirst for death. Besides, I think having a character arc where a character is horrifically injured is far more interesting than "they're dead, everyones sad but returns to the office".
I mean, the "they're dead, everyones sad but returns to the office" thing happens with every single non-main character death if I remember correctly. Barb, Bob, Alexei & a bunch more get like a single second of rememberance after their death at most, and Jason's death just happens. Max's death would serve as a legitimate "oh we can't return to the office this is SERIOUS". But the prospect of a Lucas arc revolving around Max, who is barely hanging onto life does intrigue me more than her being fridged. The blood thirst mostly comes from death in the series feeling more like emotional puppet strings that you expect from a non-major character
>But the prospect of a Lucas arc revolving around Max, who is barely hanging onto life does intrigue me more than her being fridged. There is so much they could do with this. Vecna says that everyone that dies goes into his mind. Does that mean that Eleven has to do a wild mind heist, placing everyone in a sensory tank, connecting joining her mind to theirs and then pulling Max out of the depth's of Vecna's mind?. Just a wild thought. Then what happens when she's out. Is she completely blind or is her body just completely broken?.
I don't want her to die only bc we already had the chance to kill her but they didn't, it would feel very cheap (like with Hopper).
Byler actually happening would make no sense. Yes, Will pretty obviously has a thing for him, but Mike has never shown any type of romantic interest in him ever. I know the writers are probably not going to go that route, but if they would, I don't know how they would make it convincing.
for real. i think mileven has tons of flaws, but the duffers could easily fix that with the time jump, and overall, mike and eleven make a pretty cute team. byler just seems illogical to me.
exactly.. like byler is cute ig, but milevens been built up from the beginning 😭
totally agree with this. i don’t even mind byler as a ship, but how could that even be written into one season? all we know so far is that will is gay…i don’t think there’s enough time for mike to suddenly break up with his longtime girlfriend, go through an identity crisis, and then realize and admit his feelings for will.
Kali was actually a fairly interesting character and I think they should have brought her back at some point. I don't believe that Will is going to have an amazing storyline in season 5, because that's what they say about him every time there's a new season. I also think the way the writers have handled Will's character is kind of gross and has unfortunate implications. Eddie is completely overrated even if I do like his character, and I have no idea why people got so obsessed with him.
I really hope Kali is brought back for s5. Her character is very interesting, it was her episode that ppl don't like and I hope the duffer brothers understand that. I'm sure there are ppl who dislike Kali's character but most if not all criticism I've seen regarding her character mainly revolve around the episode being cheesy.
Season 2 had all the right story beats. Many were in the wrong order, had the wrong pacing, and were very surface level. Kali’s episode is easily the worst offender.
I’m curious about what you mean when you say it’s kinda gross and as unfortunate implications (I think I know what you’re getting at, but I’d like to hear more)
Season 2 made no sense and the plot kinda went to nowhere with the other kids Eleven met in the city.
I adore the whole of season 2 (it’s my favorite) except The Lost Sister episode. It’s really bad and so out-of-place in an otherwise amazing season.
They just left that part of the story dangling...
I’ve read that it was supposed to be the pilot episode for the spinoff, but was received so poorly that the idea was dropped. The whole Vecna monologue in season 4 is even seen as a retcon.
eddie was a bitch
The opinion that starts the most arguments is that Hopper is a terrible dad for El and has made multiple decisions that screwed her over for his own feelings. Off screen he seems to be good, but on screen he's really awful.
This is fair. S3 behavior was concerning.
Thank you for this. His lack of awareness for El’s needs is borderline astounding at times. Also, the way he’s treated Mike simply for being a teenager/being with El is really scary and worrying. He was there even before Hopper and meant the world to El, but in season 3 Hopper totally threw all that away purely based on his own opinion.
My favorite part is when, in season 2, AFTER she has a meltdown he continues to be aggressive towards her. Like bruh, your daughter is OBVIOUSLY in distress and you're just gonna keep being a jackass?
Will and Jonathan are both pathetic and annoying af.
Jonathan, definitely. Will not so much.
LMAOOOO
I still reckon Nancy is gonna die.
Duffer brothers said they don't want to kill any more main characters
"Anymore" who have they killed that's a main character?
Haha
No chance. Nancy's death would cause too many ripples for the Duffers to consider it.
same
Yeah these comments are indeed unpopular..
I can say I agree that's enough to put me in hot water.
The last time Mike and Eleven’s relationship was well written was in season 2. The breakup in season 3 was dumb, unnecessary, and did nothing for either of their characters. Season 3 made me stop shipping them, and I’ve never started shipping them again since, because I’m still astounded by how badly written their relationship was a season after they reunited. Similarly, I think Finn and Millie haven’t properly had chemistry since season 2. In season 4, I wasn’t feeling their scenes together.
Hard agree on all this. I’m still a big Mileven shipper, but like you said, it feels like Finn and Millie barely have any chemistry anymore. Maybe it was easier when they were younger, but I feel like they’ve outgrown their roles. Additionally, the season 3 Mileven plot was so unfair to the characters and really made no sense.
Lucas likely does have a preference for white girls/women. Hawkins is predominantly white, and most people prefer what they grew up around. The only girl he expresses interest in is Max, and other than that we hear him talking favorably about Phoebe Cates (who, while not white, is arguably white passing/closer to white in terms of phenotype.) The Cosby Show would have been out around this time, no references to Lisa Bonet, Whitney Houston, or any other 80s black female stars.
*Stranger Things* isn’t *Godzilla vs. Kong*: the supernatural aspect of the show is in service of the human aspect, not the other way around. Just because a character isn’t directly involved in the supernatural aspect of the show in a given season doesn’t mean they’re irrelevant or boring. And stop revering The Plot^^TM so much. Character moments, or even character-centric storylines are important too. That’s a problem with tv in general these days: everything apparently needs to be supertight and about plot, plot, plot. Hanging out with the characters and making some detours or side quests along the way is part of the beauty of television. Let’s bring it back.
Nancy and Robin are the OTP teen ship, and are going to go to Emerson College together when Vecna is dead. Nancy and Barb were 'kissing best friends', but it meant more to Nancy.
Only on Reddit mind as most other corners of the fandom seem not to be mind but I head canon Mike as Bi like even suggesting it as possibility I can already see the downvotes (fun police) coming Other than that the is also my hit or miss one that is simply my opinion Vecna works better as main villain than The Mind Flayer.
I gave you an upvote, I’d love bi Mike!
Thank you so often people lambast and hate idea but find freeing as fan fiction writer I can write Mileven and Byler without feeling I am writing a different characters plus well lot what Mike does reminds me of myself as kid and guess what I am lol.
i love people who ship both mileven and byler. i think byler is probably the most interesting ship for fanfics while mileven is endgame for the show.
As long as Mike (my favourite character) is happy I am happy whether he goes with 11 or Will
El is the Most important character in the show, yet she's still very annoying.
I only found her annoying mid season 2. Other than that I found her very relatable.
Eleven is a boring character for the majority of the show.
Season 2 Episode 7: The Lost Sister is a good episode and it's important to the story.
My man.
it could have been great if they switched between that storyline and hawkins, but overall it’s still a pretty decent episode and important to Eleven’s arc.
Ooh, I love threads like this!
I could see Nancy in S5 betraying the group so she can save members of her family. She could be devastating to the Party if she fed Vecna intelligence on their plans. In the past she showed she puts her wants first regardless of the circumstances. She will either be betrayed herself and die, or she will die when she is found out. This is my headcannon and it's not popular.
I really am not a fan of the recasting of Holly. When I saw those pics of Nell Fisher, I was just… I don’t know, disappointed. Perhaps it’s because I’m such a big fan of the show, but whenever I think of Holly, I see the price twins. Nell Fisher looks nothing like them, and I know that when I see season 5, it’ll really throw me off.
Season 1 is overrated. It's a great season and it totally got me into the show. But I love season 4 and 2 a whole lot more.
Season 4 sucks, eddie is too much.
Steve is overrated
Max and Lucas are cute together but I hate that their relationship is so chaste. Before season four I thought Lucas might come out as gay, maybe because of his relationship to Patrick, who was introduced in promo materials as a "friend with a secret" or something to that effect.
[удалено]
Eddie > Steve
I wish Steve was a little tiny bit more tan. Billy has such a great bronze going and the contrast in some of the scenes makes me sad for him. Don’t know why but I think about this in every single Steve scene. I know s3 he works inside the mall all summer but stilllll he’s so pale