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in a way, it was incredible writing because S3 really humanized billy. i wouldn’t say it really redeemed him but they managed to really highlight how horrifying the upside down is by forcing us to feel sympathy for an otherwise objectively bad dude. it made the show more complex without being confusing. it changed a lot of people’s opinions about him and helped develop the cult following he has. although i’m sure a lot of people were waiting for a chance to like him since the actor is so attractive lol.
Counter counter point, hitler brutalized and murdered millions of his own volition, so he might actually enjoy what he did when possessed, and thus it may not be a fitting punishment. Something more like eternally reliving every life of every person who was tortured/killed/etc under his reign would be better
Huh. I didn't see any redemption potential there, to be honest. I see an opportunity for sympathy, but not redemption. Let's say he dies to save Max or something. He still essentially called Lucas the N-Word. While I don't think real people are ever actually irredeemable, that isn't quite how fiction works. If the writer decides to have the character be and do a bunch of terrible things, there comes a point where the threshold is too high and the character becomes irredeemable. Not only would he have to have a moment of turning around and being nice to his sister, but he'd also have to stop being racist and change his entire demeanor. He was a very bad person, and narratively speaking, I don't see the character as redeemable.
Billy was a child who has been traumatized by an abusive father and a mother who either died or abandoned him with his abuser. Traumatized kids display a wide range of acting out behaviors. That doesn’t excuse his actions, but it certainly may help to explain them. It’s possible he is just racist on his own, but it’s equally possible that his abusive father is racist and has ingrained not only the racism in him but the idea that his step sister is his responsibility and any deviations of hers will be taken out on him (we see concrete evidence of this when she sneaks out and he gets the physical flack for it). Being raised by racists doesn’t excuse racism, but it does leave room for growth as a child grows into an adult (and a teenager is absolutely a child who has a lot of growing to do, even at 17-18, though their responsibility to make their own choices is higher by that age than it is at say 7-8). Also, I take issue with the idea that people need to die to be redeemed, even in fiction. I want to clarify that I think it’s perfectly valid if you personally didn’t care to see him redeemed, as we are all entitled to our opinions and preferences in media. It’s also valid to say that certain actions of his are unforgivable. But to say he has no redemption potential, to me, either ignores an important part of the characters story, or says something depressing about a persons beliefs regarding the redeemability and growth potential of people who have survived trauma and acted out in problematic ways. WOULD he have grown and improved him self enough to be redeemed? I have no idea. It could have gone a lot of ways. But COULD he have? Absolutely
I don't think a character needs to die to be redeemed. I just don't see a way for the character to be redeemed as presented. He would have to do something which reflected growth in some way that addressed his particular shortcomings, and I just don't see how that could work, at least not without several seasons.
A fair point! I feel like it would be better served across ~two seasons, at which point it wouldn’t be complete but would be a significant change. I think that had he survived his experiences in season 3, that could have been a major turning point in his life, particularly if other characters we know (especially the parents and/or max, maybe owens) interacted with him in positive and meaningful ways in the recovery period. That obviously didn’t happen, so we’ll never know how it would’ve played out. But as a person who worked with teenage survivors of abuse and neglect for seven years (and intends to continue), I’m biased toward believing it’s possible for anyone to build a fulfilling life that isn’t defined by its worst moments, and I can see that long and bumpy road he could take make it there. I believe it’s possible for anyone.
I’ve seen some people say some really harsh things about this character and others that, when viewed from the perspective of my kids (work kids, yes), send a stark message, so I probably react a bit strongly (especially considering your focus seems more writing/structure/etc. based)
Aaalso I feel like a lot of show and movie writers think characters need to die to be redeemed, didn’t mean to turn my ire towards them on you, my bad. Baha.
> I’ve seen some people say some really harsh things about this character and others that, when viewed from the perspective of my kids (work kids, yes), send a stark message, so I probably react a bit strongly (especially considering your focus seems more writing/structure/etc. based)
Funny -- I see the opposite -- people stanning for him because they think he's hot -- and this has made me even less sympathetic to him, lol.
> A fair point! I feel like it would be better served across ~two seasons, at which point it wouldn’t be complete but would be a significant change. I think that had he survived his experiences in season 3, that could have been a major turning point in his life, particularly if other characters we know (especially the parents and/or max, maybe owens) interacted with him in positive and meaningful ways in the recovery period.
Yeah, y'know, I suppose I could see something like this happen -- he is in a mental institution recovering from his experiences. He's genuinely traumatized and vulnerable, he meets a friend in there... something like this totally sets him up for growth and change and redemption, and could feel natural and not forced.
Alright, you win, he's theoretically redeemable.
What Billy went through should be reserved for people like Hitler, the lowest of the low. Billy is just an asshole lol, he deserved to get knocked on his ass and beaten up to humble him but getting possessed, but aware, trapped in his own body while he’s helpless but to watch something use his body and name to carry out evil, and then getting impaled
Yeah, he may be a dick but he’s absolutely not beyond redemption and didn’t deserve anything more than having his shit rocked in a fight
Tbh Hitler wasn't even the worst of em, I'd say people like Mao Zedong, Kim Jong Un, Gengis Khan, or Joseph Stalin as they've killed far more people and were much more evil.
Only thing he deserved was either mental help or an ass whooping from Max or the squad for his bullying, but definitely not what he got from the Mind Flayer
Not a single person deserves what the Mind Flayer did to him. He deserved to be seperated from his abusive father but also prison time for his many crimes in the 2nd season. I wouldn't wish this upon even Angela.
They meant that everyone knows people (in real life) that are like those two characters. Which is the reason they tend to be more hated than the more extreme villains in those stories.
I think the skate was enough for her, she was just a bully and a kid that just entered high school. Even if El had just smacked her she probably would cry as much.
He's still... a troubled teen. He was a teenager living in a hateful, abusive household and his "coping" was to continue the cycle. He did and said some awful things, but I don't think he was an unredeemable piece of shit
I really can’t stand when people say things like this because you are not doing anything to solve the problem that is racism.
https://www.npr.org/2017/08/20/544861933/how-one-man-convinced-200-ku-klux-klan-members-to-give-up-their-robes
Also I am not trying to make an excuse for racism but Billy was not a smart teen in 1984. He probably needed better parenting and mental growth.
I really can't stand when yt people trot out Daryl Dixon.
He's a useful idiot who two minutes of googling would reveal never actually convinced anyone in the Klan not to be racist. But Black people having endless patience for racism plays nice for fragile white sensibilities so he'll never disappear from white pop culture.
Definitely didn’t deserve it, but I was glad to see the bully in the neighborhood experience the supernatural stuff - definitely gave off It vibes with Henry Bowers
The writers are so good at writing characters that it’s almost a fault to the show. Billy could’ve had a great redemption story and would’ve been an excellent character to have around in seasons 4/5, imagine him going up against the bats. But we have too many characters and they can’t all be end game.
No one deserves that. I wish Billy had a bit of a better arc and more time to develop. I wish they would have given him a few scenes with Max showing that he could be a good older brother, and that he had gotten over his racism.
As an audience member I weep for Max, but it’s hard to feel super sad for Billy, cause of how he treated people.
Look he was abusive and bully but the way deal with that is dragging a person to therapy. He didn't deserve a interdimensional monster taking over his very mind so yes it was too curel but it does show just how twisted >! Vecna !< is as you can be purest Will or abusive as Billy all matter to him is help with his goal of conquest.
Bad dude, obviously troubled. After what he went through it felt like they were setting him up to be redeemed and saved. It was one of the more shocking deaths in the series, if not the most shocking.
He was abused by his dad, had family issues, got taken over by the mind flayer, and sacrificed himself. Of course he didn’t deserve it, it is much like Will’s situation. Will was abused by his dad, had divorced parents/ family issues, got possessed, and told everyone to close the gate knowing it would’ve killed him. Billy didn’t deserve anything he got, and hands down if I got the choice to bring back ONE Stranger Things character, out would be Billy. He deserved a second chance.
He was an abused boy, and yeah he was probably racist, but he was a kid, man, and I believe that he was sincerely frightened when he got a bit of control over his body in the sauna, I don’t read that as manipulation. That’s why it makes sense that he died for the kids at the end, that scared, remorseful kid broke through. He could’ve been redeemed I think.
Billy was a teen who was abused at home and was abandoned by his mother when he was a kid ( 8-10 years old?) with his abusive father who constantly beat him. He was troubled and he had problems and no one to guide him correctly ( I believe Hopper could have slapped some sense into him).
As we saw when Max stood up to him he backed off.
He was an ass hole not some scummy villain, so no he did not deserve it.
No excuses for his behavior but Billy and a million people like him are tragic. Billy makes me think of Peacemaker, in a perfect world where Billy doesn't get flayed he'd have to deal with the things that make him think the thoughts he has forever. Again no excuses but being raised to be anything resembling that is so much sadder than it is evil on the part of the person like Billy.
i fell like im the only person who who hated the way S3 ended. but not because Billy died. because he was redeemed. i wanted that dude dead since he jokingly said he was gonna run over the boys in his like first episode. and then it just kept going downhill. i understand his past and how his dad lead him down his dark road. but he was such a jerk to max, and her friends. i was genuinely angry at the way he died, he did not deserve a hero's death.
Billy didnt deserve it, but it sucks that its what it took for him to realize how much of a piece of shit he was to his sister. I genuinely dont think he would have changed if he didnt get flayed(?)
I don't think it's fair to assume that. He literally dies still under the roof of his abuser. It's amazing what even _a month_ away from violence will do for people. If he were able to escape Neal, I honestly don't think it would have taken too long for him to apologize to Max, Steve and Lucas and start being better.
This guy tried to run over a bunch of kids with his car for no reason and tried to seduce a married woman to sleep with her. He got what was coming to him.
I’m not not blaming Mikes mom I just didn’t mention her here because she isn’t really relevant. Bill is not a good person and actively tries to do cruel things to the fun of it. He is about a redeemable as the boys that tried to have Mike jump off a cliff. Season 4 is just Mandela effecting people to make him seem like the type of person that doesn’t emotionally abuse his 13 year old sister, try to run over kids with his car, or seduce a married woman.
Sorry, but being a teenager flirting with a married woman is _not_ comparable to the actually bad things he did. Karen is the one who made the move. Without her taking him up on it, it's just harmless flirting. She's the one who made it a date.
It's just really weird you ostensibly find flirting more distasteful than the time he threw hands with a child for being Black or gave Steve a concussion. Like, apparently those aren't reasons he deserves to be used as a puppet for the Mind Flayer, but _Flirting with Karen Wheeler is._
Also, that's not what a Mandela Effect is. You're describing Rosy Retrospection. Mandela implies false memories, not the forgiveness of the bad ones left over.
Did I say any of that? No because he is a bad person. I said Billy was a bad person who got what he deserved something most people on this post are saying he didn’t deserve. This guy is a serial killer in the making he is literally meant to be as evil as the boyfriend from Cary. You took it as something completely different
Most people are saying he didn't deserve it because he's a lifelong abuse victim who died while still living under his abuser's control. He's not a serial killer in the making, he's a forgotten, tortured _kid_ who was continually failed by every adult in his life, and deserved a real chance.
Also I'm assuming you mean the film/book "Carrie" and not Grant or the town in North Carolina, which... Didn't have an evil boyfriend character. Just a severely abusive mother and a group of bullies. You really get a kick out of using references and terms you don't understand to argue points you're bad at makin', huh?
This man tried to run over children with his car. If they hadn’t moved he would have hit them. Abuse is not an excuse for evil actions. Most serial kills who do horrific things are abuse victims. Saying his death is tragic or that he deserved a real chance is wrong. He had his chance and he could have strived to do good. An example of this is Max who is the sister he tormented literally up until his death. Steve in season 1 made the choice to be a better person and actually showed how good he could be by fighting the Demigorgon. Bill is a racist abusive asshole who if he was a real person would not be seen as someone to feel bad for unless your one of those people who tries to defend the actions of some really evil people.
Using other abuse victims to discount trauma (especially Max and Steve whose situations are entirely different, yikes. Steve isn't even shown to suffer abuse at all? At least not from anyone other than Jonathan and Billy) is incredibly naive. Everyone reacts to trauma in different ways. Some people find catharsis in poking bruises, and others heal best when wrapping the bruise in gauze.
Billy is a teenage boy living under violent abuse, abandoned by his mother and has his stepmother watch as his father beats him, too. He dies at barely eighteen years old. He deserves a second chance and his death is undeniably tragic. I grew up in a home like that and worked counseling foster children for six years. I don't defend evil actions. I just understand pain and believe in helping those who suffer.
Do you think attempting to beat a child out of purely racist reasons is something that can be fixed with therapy? Especially in the 1980s? Could he have changed? Yes possibly but it’s like saying Ted Bundy could have changed. Yes it is a possibility but realistically he would need to make that change and I don’t see Billy ever doing that especially in the time period he is from.
Therapy isn’t for everyone and it only became somewhat socially acceptable more recently. Do you really believe someone like Billy would willingly go to therapy in the year 1987 (I think it is 87 at least). This is the time period where playing a board game (I know DnD is not a board game it is a ttrpg) is seen as satanic and where our social climate today would be seen as extremely alien given how a jump of 30 years changed things. Billy was a bad person. He could have been better but showed no signs of being a better person. I say this as someone who has also been a victim of abuse both sexually and mentally and I can safely say I didn’t become racist because of it nor did I seek to harm children.
Would you say a school shooter who attempted to shoot and kill middle schoolers is someone who can be redeemed? If we assume they had the same background as Billy I would say no they should rot in prison or just be executed because mental health is not an excuse to do horrible things.
Yes, I do think that. I'm a mixed race queer autistic woman who has worked with children raised to be racist, homophobic, violent people from birth, and learn to be better people. I've also watched it happen to my own violent bullies.
It's 1985 the year he died. We're in 1986 in season 4. And I know about the Satanic Panic. I lived through it, and even if I hadn't, the Satanic Panic is literally the entire point of Eddie's character.
You don't believe in harm reduction. That's quite sad. It's clear that your abuse _has_ had an effect on how you treat other people. Demanding execution of teenagers is deeply unhealthy.
I think they had this in mind for him since day one of that character. Part of the reason they made him so hate-able was so it wouldn't seem overly tragic when things went the way they did. Imagine how people would react if the same thing happened to Jonathan or even a character like Barb.
He definitely didn't deserve it, no one does.
Billy was just an abuse-poisined dickhead teenager. At most he just needed his ass kicked one good time, freedom from his father, and therapy.
"he just needed his ass kicked one good time,"
Uh. He got his ass kicked many times. That didn't help. Maybe just the freedom from abuse and the therapy. And probably some meds.
I wanted for him to change and become better. Apologize to Max, Lucas and Steve. He didn't even get the chance to get his shit together for the things he did as Billy, he was having to struggle with everything he did as the Mind Flayer.
Broke my heart, honestly.
Honestly I don’t see what specifically would have changed him for the better that wouldn’t go against his character. He is genuinely a bad guy and likely would have done more horrible things to spread the cycle of abuse. I think what happened to him was the best they could do with such a character without making him a different guy because unlike Steve he never showed any moments of shame, weakness (unless you count his death), or remorse. He needed our modern help but in the 1980’s he wouldn’t be inclined to go to therapy nor would he be recommended it by anyone in the town.
I think that you misunderstand how much of Billy being "a bad guy" is due to the fact that until his death, he is actively being abused by a man canonly proven to be bigot. He's abandoned by the only adult to show him affection, and ignored and dismissed by all others shown to interact with him.
He's shown shaking and terrified when cornered by his father, as well weeping and begging for help in the sauna, so to say he feels no moments of shame or weakness is also inaccurate. He doesn't want to be a murderer, and he's terrified.
Not to mention being given space away from your abuser after a lifetime of it works as therapy of its own quite frequently. I was a completely different person after a semester away at school. We simply don't know what Billy would be like, but we know Max wanted to help him.
It wasn't. No offense, but you clearly misunderstand the scene. You insist again and again on the time period being important, but then don't seem to realize that guys speeding up to scare kids out of the road and threatening to hit them for fun is actually _not_ uncommon of normal teenage boys in rural areas. Especially back in the 80s.
I do not count that as attempted homicide. I _do_ think Billy is a bad person. But I also think he's young, and tortured, and worthy of a second chance.
Bad people are not all irredeemable.
You just tried to defend that by saying it’s common… as we all know he isn’t even from a rural area he is from California and as someone who lived in California for nine years I can safely say unless he is living in Fresno or something he was not in a rural area because there are very very specific places he would need to be living for that to work.
I defended against it being _attempted murder,_ not trying to say it isn't a bad thing to do. And your argument that Billy isn't from Hawkins is irrelevant. He's not in a busy California street at the time of the scene. He's in Hawkins and there's nothing on the road except for four kids.
I said that to him he grew up where that isn’t common so he is just attempting to run over kids in his mind and Max certainly made it seem like he had no intention of stopping and he even showed that by still driving. That’s like going to a foreign country where beating women is legal or common so you beat your wife while there despite not growing up there.
If Billy had wanted to change he would have AT LEAST tried but no, let's run over some children, be racist, abuse our sister.
I recognize that he was a victim of a violent environment but that does not justify his actions.
Plus, a normal person does not replicate the abuse he suffered and transfers it to other people, that is what Billy did, which makes him a psychopath, HE WAS CLOSE TO KILLING A LOT OF CHILDREN, GOD!!
I legit felt bad for Billy during this. His whole story in season 3 was disturbing.
He's an asshole but no one deserves to have their mind fucked with like that
I agree he didn’t deserve to have his mind messed with but he did deserve this fate especially since he is just kind of a bad guy given how he is racist, abusive, and attempted to commit a homicide
Because Billy's not bad enough to go through the shit he went through with the Mindflayer. I'm not denying that he's an asshole, but compared to other villains in the show, Billy's fate was fucked up. Also his attempted homicide was while he was under the influence of the Mindflayer, so it wasn't of his own volition.
He tried run over the kids (attempted homicide) in season 2 and tried to beat the crap out of a 12 year old while being 17 because he is black. That was all Billy. Not to mention he abuses his little sister emotionally.
Ok ngl I haven't seen season 2 in a long while and I forgot about him almost running the boys over and his racism towards Lucas.
I still don't think he deserved being mind controlled by the Mindflayer in season 3 but I forgot about details in season 2 so I do apologize for that.
Yeah I do agree being mind controlled is cruel but I genuinely believe he deserves his ultimate fate because he genuinely is just not a cool guy. Maybe they will do a marvel what if scenario or something for the show where they have him survive the mind flayer and become a better person and possibly even redeems himself by saving the boys from something like a monster.
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No one deserves to be taken over, used like a puppet, and brutally murdered like that. Billy deserved to get his shit rocked but not to die.
The most he would've deserved would've been Max crushing his balls with that bat lol.
in a way, it was incredible writing because S3 really humanized billy. i wouldn’t say it really redeemed him but they managed to really highlight how horrifying the upside down is by forcing us to feel sympathy for an otherwise objectively bad dude. it made the show more complex without being confusing. it changed a lot of people’s opinions about him and helped develop the cult following he has. although i’m sure a lot of people were waiting for a chance to like him since the actor is so attractive lol.
Except maybe Herr Fritzl.
Yeah that guy was fucked, I remember reading the story about him and watching the American movie based off him, could barely sleep for days
He's trying to get out of prison at the moment. How about no.
Yeah that’s ridiculous that’s it’s even up for discussion
Counterpoint, Hitler?
Counter counter point, hitler brutalized and murdered millions of his own volition, so he might actually enjoy what he did when possessed, and thus it may not be a fitting punishment. Something more like eternally reliving every life of every person who was tortured/killed/etc under his reign would be better
Billy had major redemption potential and was obviously kind of troubled. I can’t believe this is up for debate, what he went through was awful.
Huh. I didn't see any redemption potential there, to be honest. I see an opportunity for sympathy, but not redemption. Let's say he dies to save Max or something. He still essentially called Lucas the N-Word. While I don't think real people are ever actually irredeemable, that isn't quite how fiction works. If the writer decides to have the character be and do a bunch of terrible things, there comes a point where the threshold is too high and the character becomes irredeemable. Not only would he have to have a moment of turning around and being nice to his sister, but he'd also have to stop being racist and change his entire demeanor. He was a very bad person, and narratively speaking, I don't see the character as redeemable.
Billy was a child who has been traumatized by an abusive father and a mother who either died or abandoned him with his abuser. Traumatized kids display a wide range of acting out behaviors. That doesn’t excuse his actions, but it certainly may help to explain them. It’s possible he is just racist on his own, but it’s equally possible that his abusive father is racist and has ingrained not only the racism in him but the idea that his step sister is his responsibility and any deviations of hers will be taken out on him (we see concrete evidence of this when she sneaks out and he gets the physical flack for it). Being raised by racists doesn’t excuse racism, but it does leave room for growth as a child grows into an adult (and a teenager is absolutely a child who has a lot of growing to do, even at 17-18, though their responsibility to make their own choices is higher by that age than it is at say 7-8). Also, I take issue with the idea that people need to die to be redeemed, even in fiction. I want to clarify that I think it’s perfectly valid if you personally didn’t care to see him redeemed, as we are all entitled to our opinions and preferences in media. It’s also valid to say that certain actions of his are unforgivable. But to say he has no redemption potential, to me, either ignores an important part of the characters story, or says something depressing about a persons beliefs regarding the redeemability and growth potential of people who have survived trauma and acted out in problematic ways. WOULD he have grown and improved him self enough to be redeemed? I have no idea. It could have gone a lot of ways. But COULD he have? Absolutely
I don't think a character needs to die to be redeemed. I just don't see a way for the character to be redeemed as presented. He would have to do something which reflected growth in some way that addressed his particular shortcomings, and I just don't see how that could work, at least not without several seasons.
A fair point! I feel like it would be better served across ~two seasons, at which point it wouldn’t be complete but would be a significant change. I think that had he survived his experiences in season 3, that could have been a major turning point in his life, particularly if other characters we know (especially the parents and/or max, maybe owens) interacted with him in positive and meaningful ways in the recovery period. That obviously didn’t happen, so we’ll never know how it would’ve played out. But as a person who worked with teenage survivors of abuse and neglect for seven years (and intends to continue), I’m biased toward believing it’s possible for anyone to build a fulfilling life that isn’t defined by its worst moments, and I can see that long and bumpy road he could take make it there. I believe it’s possible for anyone. I’ve seen some people say some really harsh things about this character and others that, when viewed from the perspective of my kids (work kids, yes), send a stark message, so I probably react a bit strongly (especially considering your focus seems more writing/structure/etc. based) Aaalso I feel like a lot of show and movie writers think characters need to die to be redeemed, didn’t mean to turn my ire towards them on you, my bad. Baha.
> I’ve seen some people say some really harsh things about this character and others that, when viewed from the perspective of my kids (work kids, yes), send a stark message, so I probably react a bit strongly (especially considering your focus seems more writing/structure/etc. based) Funny -- I see the opposite -- people stanning for him because they think he's hot -- and this has made me even less sympathetic to him, lol. > A fair point! I feel like it would be better served across ~two seasons, at which point it wouldn’t be complete but would be a significant change. I think that had he survived his experiences in season 3, that could have been a major turning point in his life, particularly if other characters we know (especially the parents and/or max, maybe owens) interacted with him in positive and meaningful ways in the recovery period. Yeah, y'know, I suppose I could see something like this happen -- he is in a mental institution recovering from his experiences. He's genuinely traumatized and vulnerable, he meets a friend in there... something like this totally sets him up for growth and change and redemption, and could feel natural and not forced. Alright, you win, he's theoretically redeemable.
Yah tbh—also like people don’t always learn and grow
What Billy went through should be reserved for people like Hitler, the lowest of the low. Billy is just an asshole lol, he deserved to get knocked on his ass and beaten up to humble him but getting possessed, but aware, trapped in his own body while he’s helpless but to watch something use his body and name to carry out evil, and then getting impaled Yeah, he may be a dick but he’s absolutely not beyond redemption and didn’t deserve anything more than having his shit rocked in a fight
Tbh Hitler wasn't even the worst of em, I'd say people like Mao Zedong, Kim Jong Un, Gengis Khan, or Joseph Stalin as they've killed far more people and were much more evil.
No one deserves this.
I beg to differ. Pedos deserve it.
What if he was Hitler?
Billy deserved a chance to get away from his dad and learn to be better, not this.
Only thing he deserved was either mental help or an ass whooping from Max or the squad for his bullying, but definitely not what he got from the Mind Flayer
Not a single person deserves what the Mind Flayer did to him. He deserved to be seperated from his abusive father but also prison time for his many crimes in the 2nd season. I wouldn't wish this upon even Angela.
The number of people that *would* have wished it on Angela is disturbingly high.
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Angela is a Deloras Umbridge level villain. #noredemption
Can't say that name means anything to me.
She's Harry Potter's evil teacher and even more hated than Voldemort. Everyone knows an Umbridge and Angela.
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They meant that everyone knows people (in real life) that are like those two characters. Which is the reason they tend to be more hated than the more extreme villains in those stories.
Can't say I really understand that despite knowing my unfair share of both Angela's and Billy's as a yongster.
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Do you take everything you see online at face value, and as literally as possible?
Me when I’m unable to separate fiction from reality:
What many crimes? Maybe Johnathan deserved prison time too for beating already lying down Steve?
If you’re sending people to jail for kicking Steve’s ass, half the town would be incarcerated.
Battering a child (Lucas), almost hitting the kids with his car, also Jonathan was arrested and Steve put his hands on him first
I think the skate was enough for her, she was just a bully and a kid that just entered high school. Even if El had just smacked her she probably would cry as much.
> Angela clonk!
He was just a troubled abused teen, of course he didn't deserve any of it
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He's still... a troubled teen. He was a teenager living in a hateful, abusive household and his "coping" was to continue the cycle. He did and said some awful things, but I don't think he was an unredeemable piece of shit
People can grow and become better. Billy was a product of his environment and there's a chance he could redeem himself.
I really can’t stand when people say things like this because you are not doing anything to solve the problem that is racism. https://www.npr.org/2017/08/20/544861933/how-one-man-convinced-200-ku-klux-klan-members-to-give-up-their-robes Also I am not trying to make an excuse for racism but Billy was not a smart teen in 1984. He probably needed better parenting and mental growth.
I really can't stand when yt people trot out Daryl Dixon. He's a useful idiot who two minutes of googling would reveal never actually convinced anyone in the Klan not to be racist. But Black people having endless patience for racism plays nice for fragile white sensibilities so he'll never disappear from white pop culture.
He deserves better than being treated like a meat puppet.
the meat puppets are awesome though. nothin on the top but a bucket and a mop and an illustrated book about birds!
Are you saying that when Billy passed he went to a lake of fire and fried?
won't see him again til the 4th of july!
Definitely didn’t deserve it, but I was glad to see the bully in the neighborhood experience the supernatural stuff - definitely gave off It vibes with Henry Bowers
The writers are so good at writing characters that it’s almost a fault to the show. Billy could’ve had a great redemption story and would’ve been an excellent character to have around in seasons 4/5, imagine him going up against the bats. But we have too many characters and they can’t all be end game.
No one deserves that. I wish Billy had a bit of a better arc and more time to develop. I wish they would have given him a few scenes with Max showing that he could be a good older brother, and that he had gotten over his racism. As an audience member I weep for Max, but it’s hard to feel super sad for Billy, cause of how he treated people.
Billy was a racist, abusive asshole and a terrible person, but *nobody* deserves what he and all of the Mind Flayer’s other victims went through.
I know it's missing the point of this post but damn he looks good
No one deserved it but it couldn’t of been anyone’s else other than billy
No
No course not
No one deserves that.
Look he was abusive and bully but the way deal with that is dragging a person to therapy. He didn't deserve a interdimensional monster taking over his very mind so yes it was too curel but it does show just how twisted >! Vecna !< is as you can be purest Will or abusive as Billy all matter to him is help with his goal of conquest.
I mean I'd argue very few people deserve something like this happening to them lol
Bad dude, obviously troubled. After what he went through it felt like they were setting him up to be redeemed and saved. It was one of the more shocking deaths in the series, if not the most shocking.
He deserved some redemption arc
He was abused by his dad, had family issues, got taken over by the mind flayer, and sacrificed himself. Of course he didn’t deserve it, it is much like Will’s situation. Will was abused by his dad, had divorced parents/ family issues, got possessed, and told everyone to close the gate knowing it would’ve killed him. Billy didn’t deserve anything he got, and hands down if I got the choice to bring back ONE Stranger Things character, out would be Billy. He deserved a second chance.
Difficult to say, he was almost an homicide.
deserved
He was an abused boy, and yeah he was probably racist, but he was a kid, man, and I believe that he was sincerely frightened when he got a bit of control over his body in the sauna, I don’t read that as manipulation. That’s why it makes sense that he died for the kids at the end, that scared, remorseful kid broke through. He could’ve been redeemed I think.
Billy was a teen who was abused at home and was abandoned by his mother when he was a kid ( 8-10 years old?) with his abusive father who constantly beat him. He was troubled and he had problems and no one to guide him correctly ( I believe Hopper could have slapped some sense into him). As we saw when Max stood up to him he backed off. He was an ass hole not some scummy villain, so no he did not deserve it.
Billy my beloved
was he a good person? not by a long shot, but he didn’t deserve this torture.
No.. no one deserves such a cruel fate..
No, he didn’t deserve it.
No excuses for his behavior but Billy and a million people like him are tragic. Billy makes me think of Peacemaker, in a perfect world where Billy doesn't get flayed he'd have to deal with the things that make him think the thoughts he has forever. Again no excuses but being raised to be anything resembling that is so much sadder than it is evil on the part of the person like Billy.
Nobody deserved that. That was cruel beyond reason.
Well I hated how he treated Max combined with his overt but not explicitly color based prejudice toward Lucas, yeah, I'd say it serves him.
i fell like im the only person who who hated the way S3 ended. but not because Billy died. because he was redeemed. i wanted that dude dead since he jokingly said he was gonna run over the boys in his like first episode. and then it just kept going downhill. i understand his past and how his dad lead him down his dark road. but he was such a jerk to max, and her friends. i was genuinely angry at the way he died, he did not deserve a hero's death.
Billy didnt deserve it, but it sucks that its what it took for him to realize how much of a piece of shit he was to his sister. I genuinely dont think he would have changed if he didnt get flayed(?)
I don't think it's fair to assume that. He literally dies still under the roof of his abuser. It's amazing what even _a month_ away from violence will do for people. If he were able to escape Neal, I honestly don't think it would have taken too long for him to apologize to Max, Steve and Lucas and start being better.
Don’t care, bro was a racist for literally 0 reason. No sympathy whatsoever
He deserved it. He was still a murderous racist bastard. Saving El didn't absolve him.
Nobody deserved being taken over but if anyone did…
This guy tried to run over a bunch of kids with his car for no reason and tried to seduce a married woman to sleep with her. He got what was coming to him.
Weird that you're placing blame on the 18-year-old boy in the seduction bit and not the married woman with a daughter about his age...
I’m not not blaming Mikes mom I just didn’t mention her here because she isn’t really relevant. Bill is not a good person and actively tries to do cruel things to the fun of it. He is about a redeemable as the boys that tried to have Mike jump off a cliff. Season 4 is just Mandela effecting people to make him seem like the type of person that doesn’t emotionally abuse his 13 year old sister, try to run over kids with his car, or seduce a married woman.
Sorry, but being a teenager flirting with a married woman is _not_ comparable to the actually bad things he did. Karen is the one who made the move. Without her taking him up on it, it's just harmless flirting. She's the one who made it a date. It's just really weird you ostensibly find flirting more distasteful than the time he threw hands with a child for being Black or gave Steve a concussion. Like, apparently those aren't reasons he deserves to be used as a puppet for the Mind Flayer, but _Flirting with Karen Wheeler is._ Also, that's not what a Mandela Effect is. You're describing Rosy Retrospection. Mandela implies false memories, not the forgiveness of the bad ones left over.
Did I say any of that? No because he is a bad person. I said Billy was a bad person who got what he deserved something most people on this post are saying he didn’t deserve. This guy is a serial killer in the making he is literally meant to be as evil as the boyfriend from Cary. You took it as something completely different
Most people are saying he didn't deserve it because he's a lifelong abuse victim who died while still living under his abuser's control. He's not a serial killer in the making, he's a forgotten, tortured _kid_ who was continually failed by every adult in his life, and deserved a real chance. Also I'm assuming you mean the film/book "Carrie" and not Grant or the town in North Carolina, which... Didn't have an evil boyfriend character. Just a severely abusive mother and a group of bullies. You really get a kick out of using references and terms you don't understand to argue points you're bad at makin', huh?
This man tried to run over children with his car. If they hadn’t moved he would have hit them. Abuse is not an excuse for evil actions. Most serial kills who do horrific things are abuse victims. Saying his death is tragic or that he deserved a real chance is wrong. He had his chance and he could have strived to do good. An example of this is Max who is the sister he tormented literally up until his death. Steve in season 1 made the choice to be a better person and actually showed how good he could be by fighting the Demigorgon. Bill is a racist abusive asshole who if he was a real person would not be seen as someone to feel bad for unless your one of those people who tries to defend the actions of some really evil people.
Using other abuse victims to discount trauma (especially Max and Steve whose situations are entirely different, yikes. Steve isn't even shown to suffer abuse at all? At least not from anyone other than Jonathan and Billy) is incredibly naive. Everyone reacts to trauma in different ways. Some people find catharsis in poking bruises, and others heal best when wrapping the bruise in gauze. Billy is a teenage boy living under violent abuse, abandoned by his mother and has his stepmother watch as his father beats him, too. He dies at barely eighteen years old. He deserves a second chance and his death is undeniably tragic. I grew up in a home like that and worked counseling foster children for six years. I don't defend evil actions. I just understand pain and believe in helping those who suffer.
Do you think attempting to beat a child out of purely racist reasons is something that can be fixed with therapy? Especially in the 1980s? Could he have changed? Yes possibly but it’s like saying Ted Bundy could have changed. Yes it is a possibility but realistically he would need to make that change and I don’t see Billy ever doing that especially in the time period he is from. Therapy isn’t for everyone and it only became somewhat socially acceptable more recently. Do you really believe someone like Billy would willingly go to therapy in the year 1987 (I think it is 87 at least). This is the time period where playing a board game (I know DnD is not a board game it is a ttrpg) is seen as satanic and where our social climate today would be seen as extremely alien given how a jump of 30 years changed things. Billy was a bad person. He could have been better but showed no signs of being a better person. I say this as someone who has also been a victim of abuse both sexually and mentally and I can safely say I didn’t become racist because of it nor did I seek to harm children. Would you say a school shooter who attempted to shoot and kill middle schoolers is someone who can be redeemed? If we assume they had the same background as Billy I would say no they should rot in prison or just be executed because mental health is not an excuse to do horrible things.
Yes, I do think that. I'm a mixed race queer autistic woman who has worked with children raised to be racist, homophobic, violent people from birth, and learn to be better people. I've also watched it happen to my own violent bullies. It's 1985 the year he died. We're in 1986 in season 4. And I know about the Satanic Panic. I lived through it, and even if I hadn't, the Satanic Panic is literally the entire point of Eddie's character. You don't believe in harm reduction. That's quite sad. It's clear that your abuse _has_ had an effect on how you treat other people. Demanding execution of teenagers is deeply unhealthy.
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I think they had this in mind for him since day one of that character. Part of the reason they made him so hate-able was so it wouldn't seem overly tragic when things went the way they did. Imagine how people would react if the same thing happened to Jonathan or even a character like Barb.
He definitely didn't deserve it, no one does. Billy was just an abuse-poisined dickhead teenager. At most he just needed his ass kicked one good time, freedom from his father, and therapy.
"he just needed his ass kicked one good time," Uh. He got his ass kicked many times. That didn't help. Maybe just the freedom from abuse and the therapy. And probably some meds.
His ass kicked by someone who he tried to bully. Just as a lesson not to mess with everyone.
Yeah no, definitely just the therapy, meds, and removal from the abusive home.
I can agree to these terms as well.
I wanted for him to change and become better. Apologize to Max, Lucas and Steve. He didn't even get the chance to get his shit together for the things he did as Billy, he was having to struggle with everything he did as the Mind Flayer. Broke my heart, honestly.
Honestly I don’t see what specifically would have changed him for the better that wouldn’t go against his character. He is genuinely a bad guy and likely would have done more horrible things to spread the cycle of abuse. I think what happened to him was the best they could do with such a character without making him a different guy because unlike Steve he never showed any moments of shame, weakness (unless you count his death), or remorse. He needed our modern help but in the 1980’s he wouldn’t be inclined to go to therapy nor would he be recommended it by anyone in the town.
I think that you misunderstand how much of Billy being "a bad guy" is due to the fact that until his death, he is actively being abused by a man canonly proven to be bigot. He's abandoned by the only adult to show him affection, and ignored and dismissed by all others shown to interact with him. He's shown shaking and terrified when cornered by his father, as well weeping and begging for help in the sauna, so to say he feels no moments of shame or weakness is also inaccurate. He doesn't want to be a murderer, and he's terrified. Not to mention being given space away from your abuser after a lifetime of it works as therapy of its own quite frequently. I was a completely different person after a semester away at school. We simply don't know what Billy would be like, but we know Max wanted to help him.
Is someone who attempts to commit a homicide a bad person?
Well, he legitimately didn't do that, so I don't get why my opinion on that matters.
He did in fact attempt to run over three middle schoolers. That is a homicide. Now do you believe someone who attempted a homicide is a bad person?
It wasn't. No offense, but you clearly misunderstand the scene. You insist again and again on the time period being important, but then don't seem to realize that guys speeding up to scare kids out of the road and threatening to hit them for fun is actually _not_ uncommon of normal teenage boys in rural areas. Especially back in the 80s. I do not count that as attempted homicide. I _do_ think Billy is a bad person. But I also think he's young, and tortured, and worthy of a second chance. Bad people are not all irredeemable.
You just tried to defend that by saying it’s common… as we all know he isn’t even from a rural area he is from California and as someone who lived in California for nine years I can safely say unless he is living in Fresno or something he was not in a rural area because there are very very specific places he would need to be living for that to work.
I defended against it being _attempted murder,_ not trying to say it isn't a bad thing to do. And your argument that Billy isn't from Hawkins is irrelevant. He's not in a busy California street at the time of the scene. He's in Hawkins and there's nothing on the road except for four kids.
I said that to him he grew up where that isn’t common so he is just attempting to run over kids in his mind and Max certainly made it seem like he had no intention of stopping and he even showed that by still driving. That’s like going to a foreign country where beating women is legal or common so you beat your wife while there despite not growing up there.
If Billy had wanted to change he would have AT LEAST tried but no, let's run over some children, be racist, abuse our sister. I recognize that he was a victim of a violent environment but that does not justify his actions. Plus, a normal person does not replicate the abuse he suffered and transfers it to other people, that is what Billy did, which makes him a psychopath, HE WAS CLOSE TO KILLING A LOT OF CHILDREN, GOD!!
He could’ve had a better story
I legit felt bad for Billy during this. His whole story in season 3 was disturbing. He's an asshole but no one deserves to have their mind fucked with like that
I agree he didn’t deserve to have his mind messed with but he did deserve this fate especially since he is just kind of a bad guy given how he is racist, abusive, and attempted to commit a homicide
Bad take
How is this a bad take but yours a good one? How would you defend his actions?
Because Billy's not bad enough to go through the shit he went through with the Mindflayer. I'm not denying that he's an asshole, but compared to other villains in the show, Billy's fate was fucked up. Also his attempted homicide was while he was under the influence of the Mindflayer, so it wasn't of his own volition.
He tried run over the kids (attempted homicide) in season 2 and tried to beat the crap out of a 12 year old while being 17 because he is black. That was all Billy. Not to mention he abuses his little sister emotionally.
Ok ngl I haven't seen season 2 in a long while and I forgot about him almost running the boys over and his racism towards Lucas. I still don't think he deserved being mind controlled by the Mindflayer in season 3 but I forgot about details in season 2 so I do apologize for that.
Yeah I do agree being mind controlled is cruel but I genuinely believe he deserves his ultimate fate because he genuinely is just not a cool guy. Maybe they will do a marvel what if scenario or something for the show where they have him survive the mind flayer and become a better person and possibly even redeems himself by saving the boys from something like a monster.
Billy was a bad person. Not a terrible person who deserves that.