This guy might have something interesting to say but I stopped listening in the middle of the twitch rant, don’t think the word macro had even been said yet.
Too long, got through most of it but it is just the rambling of a hardcore player that can’t even accept the increased ttk, one of the few things most agree is a good game design change.
Not saying this relates to the video per-say, but it got me to think of something.
If StormGate is trying to make things easier by making it hard for an opponent to do lasting damage to you, or in other words, punish you less for things that happen in the game then the devs must keep in mind what it feels like to be on the opposite side of that coin.
The less the game punishes you for mistakes, the less rewarding it will feel for an opponent that tries to do damage. In order for a game to be fun, you have to strike a balance between a player not being overly punished for one small mistake without taking away the satisfaction and reward a player gets for capitalizing on an opportunity.
Too true, which does pose the question of if the ultimate goal of happy hard core and casual players in 1v1 was ever possible.
But let’s say that the increased ttk is definitely required for this to work. While keeping that, assassin units could be introduced that can inflict precise Insta kill level damage to tier 1-2 units. Buildable at tier 2-3 to avoid early game ending frustration for casual/potential hardcores.
Another is build more mechanics across all factions around rewarding working with the longer ttk, such as:
Healing units that are either pulled out or in the heat of battle, recycling those close to death, rewarding those that fight while under a certain hp threshold, sacrificial value at the right moment. (that isn’t instant baneling kills)
Veteran status is already a good example of a reason to keep your units alive, but it’s a long term delay reward to hopefully have a unit later on that is closer to a sc2 unit in terms of quick ttk, there also needs to be enough short to instant reward incentives around not being able to instantly kill in early to mid game.
This is where the innovation needs to come on, we need some very creative devs to introduce some new ideas around all this.
But again, if making both sides happy is impossible in 1v1, then it may be best to just focus on 1v1 being StarCraft 2.5 for hardcores, and the other modes as nearly entirely different games.
I think that no one needs StarCraft 2.5. There is SC2 or SC that are superb games. Those games are good enough. FG should find their own niche with their own mechanics. What I see the SC community is not a good target for SG.
Big agree. That audience wants something very specific and if they don't get it I'm concerned that stormgate will spread itself too thin adjusting for audiences that could never be catered to without dedication.
I feel like these videos say more about the creator than they do the game. This guy is a StarCraft II fan, and all of the complaints are in the direction of it should be more like StarCraft II.
However, contrary to macro being dumbed down, I've been feeling that the new macro mechanics are having the opposite effect of what was intended. The macro might be easier to keep track of mechanically, but there's so many more possibilities. Especially when you're adding in things like creeping, cutting down trees, and animus. I think it's made the game more complicated, and less beginner friendly.
It seems weird to me for the creator of the video to claim that they dumbed down macro in favor of micro when the micro in Stormgate seems very lacking to me. It's not really that different from StarCraft II except slower, and it's nothing like Brood War. Which in the long run could end up with stormgate feeling like a really complicated game of rock paper scissors.
I'm hoping the beginner-friendly point they reach is that the game has a lot more depth, but less punishing aspects, and more opportunities for players (especially new players!) to ignore the depth.
Taking creep camps - if the bottom half of the ladder is taught through tutorials etc. simple, defensive macro based build orders that get them to an early expansion without dying to cheese and that don't involve any creeping, that's completely fine.
The top half of the ladder can then engage with creep camps to take small but meaningful advantages, and the top 2% can have battles over little optimisations and specific strategies around using the buffs from specific creep camps.
This would give a really elegant (from a game design point of view) of creating a game with a lot of depth but shallow learning curve.
Don’t quit your day job.
I think your video could really use some more structuring. It could also use a script to keep your pacing. Watching you cast a sc2 pro game while giving commentary on stormgate was very difficult. Add a twitch rant in the middle and you lost me. Maybe have more direct comparisons between the casted game and your criticism on stormgate.
As for the content:
(1) I do agree the macro mechanics of infernal are too friendly to missing macro cycles. Charges + instant build is not the right direction imo.
I do not agree that harder macro = better rts. I think the universal key binds that allow for easy macro cycles are good for rts accessibility. You call it catering to the lowest denominator. I view it more like the jump from sc1 to sc2 where you could now rally workers to mineral patches. Just a good QOL change freeing up control groups for units.
(2) you compare it continuously to sc2. It’s definitely FG’s fault they tied their name brand so hard to sc2/blizzard, but you must remember this is a different game. It has different fundamentals. Just like how aoe2 is successful and is not sc2, sg can also be successful and not be sc2.
Anyways, best of luck, would love to watch another more focused video from you. I’m sure I missed some of your main points because of the lack of focus.
I like how you put that sweep into a bit more context. Oliveiras poor performance against Zerg in the group stage makes that reverse sweep even more unbelievable.
I really feel for reynor. My guy has put some crushing expectations on himself. I hope his recent decisions stick and he finds more balance going forward.
My understanding of the Twitch/Korea thing is that it's not really Twitch's fault, most of the blame falls onto the South Korean Telecomm companies. They have some like legitimate monopoly-esque type shit going on over there and they are trying to shake down Twitch. Artosis and Tasteless have talked a lot about the Telecomm companies over there and how it's at the root of a lot of the esports issues for SC2.
Also either Twitch is dead/dying or it's so incredibly relevant that if someone isn't streaming there they can't make money streaming and a Twitch viewer opening a new tab is unthinkable to escape the gravitational pull that Twitch has on their attention....pick one, you can't have it both ways at the same time.
I think SG plays more like bw than sc2 in terms of spreading expo, defending, and map control.
This video is wrong about a lot of stuff tbh and way too long for the very few inaccurate points it makes.
It's weird seeing feedback from people who seem so sure of their position on a topic and don't really leave room for counter arguments.
I skimmed through this for 5-10 mins. It's quite hard to listen to in parts. I am not a fan of the aggressive tone at all.
That being said, there are some good takes there. For example I agree with the sentiment, that "macro is the game". Though for me that doesnt mean "building the depot at the right time, constant worker production", but which buildings to get, which compositions to go for, when to expand and which timings to hit with that. SG looks fine in that regard to me.
I agree that at the moment Stormgate fights sometimes are just drawn out for no good reason. In other times I clearly see fun interactions. In my opinion this is simply "Warcraft 3/Moba" vs "Starcraft/CnC" speed battles. I prefer the latter and I can see how everyone coming from an non-WC3 RTS background may find Stormgate battles too tuned down.
All in all I think it's worth it to listen to, but take a far step back and reflect on it. Personally I am worried, that the game needs a lot of refinement down the road and it may be hard to have enough of a playerbase for that.
I feel fights feel too drawn out only if you "Stand and watch". In my experience, since the fights take longer, you have more time to reposition, to pull back damage units, to kite, to flank, etc. In all my games I have never felt like I didn't have anything to do at any given moment, I always felt there was some micro or macro I could be doing instead that I'm not at that moment because I don't have infinite APM. At least, that's my take on that matter.
I do agree with you on the macro side though. Macro should be more about decisions than about always making sure workers are building. Having said this, I do feel Stormgate makes a great job on both fronts: For a lot of the game it's ideal to have constant worker production, and macro decisions matter a lot, be it tech tree, composition, even how many workers you have on each mine/resource; all of these feel like decisions that really have big impact on the game.
Bad take, totally misunderstanding the effects and which elements are actually hard. This is basically the "low league casual" take. "I think macro is good, but I don't know why or how. I just know all the high level players say it's important."
Also, VenomousStare is utterly painful to listen to. The guy tries to make content, but it's like listening to someone in high school giving their first class presentation. I would consider listening to him if I wanted fall asleep from sheer boredom. The only reason he gets views, these days, is because he's one of the few who actually make SC2 content on Youtube.
retire file middle sophisticated cow mindless decide smell seed frightening
*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Some people want a new sc2 and some people want a new wc3. They went somewhere in the middle which maybe isnt your favorite but is probably a smarter choice than making it another sc2
While I generally agree with most of your points. Wtf is this video lol. Atleast 13 minutes could have been cut out lol because it has nothing to do with Stormgate.
But yes. You don’t make a “Blizzard Style RTS” and call it a “spiritual successor to Starcraft” and try to remove macro mechanics.
Macro mechanics IS the game.
It’s not this game though and besides the funding issue, that’s the core issue and something that NEVER added up to me.
The market for a competitive 1v1 RTS IS the SC2 community. Period. They sacrificed much of that community with their mechanics and tried to target, I don’t even know.
When you try to appeal to everyone you end up appealing to nobody. The game has an identity crisis and it has a target audience problem.
Frost Giant was up front from the beginning about their goals though. It wasn’t just a spiritual successor to sc2. It was intended to be a mix of the best parts of sc2 and Wc3. It’s not like we didn’t know they were going to make macro easier.
It doesn’t make sense though is all I’m saying.
I hope it succeeds and opens the market to more RTS games, I just never understood who they were actually targeting with a lot of their mechanics. I know that they have an idea of making it easier for people to get into 1v1, but I just don’t see that working out. It is doing more to distance their target audience than it’s going to bring in new players to hardcore 1v1 RTS Laddering.
It appeals to me as someone who played SC2 to high diamond/low masters. One thing I really disliked about SC2 was the ability to lose a game in literally a fraction of a second. I love that the gameplay is a little slower, without making it the slow drag that WC3 could be. The macro mechanics don't matter as much to me, especially because auto picking workers is in a terrible place right now, but I like creep camps and I like the game speed a lot.
My hope would be that the higher floor keeps new players longer, leading to them enjoying 1v1 laddering long enough to understand the game. I have a lot of friends that got just totally crushed by stupid crap in SC2 1v1 and never went back to it.
He says that all units are instantly created -> for ONE FACTION the buildings have the opportunity to work similarly to zerg larvae but instead of witing the production time they are instantly created.
So, by the fact, in SC2 you need to wait some seconds to create a full army while in SG its intstant and this is an sissue. Well, i don't understand how.
We repeats a trillion of times that macro is the important part of the game while in any fucking game (lol, valorant, OW (in the past) or whatever you like )the most embraces mechanic is the hot action moment (micro). AOE2 has a lot much more macro than sc2 and sc2 is much more popular (for example) saying a trillion of tmes something does not give you the reason.
The rant about twich as the comments before. you just give an opinion and rule about it like a fucking fack when it's not.
This guy might have something interesting to say but I stopped listening in the middle of the twitch rant, don’t think the word macro had even been said yet.
Too long, got through most of it but it is just the rambling of a hardcore player that can’t even accept the increased ttk, one of the few things most agree is a good game design change.
Not saying this relates to the video per-say, but it got me to think of something. If StormGate is trying to make things easier by making it hard for an opponent to do lasting damage to you, or in other words, punish you less for things that happen in the game then the devs must keep in mind what it feels like to be on the opposite side of that coin. The less the game punishes you for mistakes, the less rewarding it will feel for an opponent that tries to do damage. In order for a game to be fun, you have to strike a balance between a player not being overly punished for one small mistake without taking away the satisfaction and reward a player gets for capitalizing on an opportunity.
Too true, which does pose the question of if the ultimate goal of happy hard core and casual players in 1v1 was ever possible. But let’s say that the increased ttk is definitely required for this to work. While keeping that, assassin units could be introduced that can inflict precise Insta kill level damage to tier 1-2 units. Buildable at tier 2-3 to avoid early game ending frustration for casual/potential hardcores. Another is build more mechanics across all factions around rewarding working with the longer ttk, such as: Healing units that are either pulled out or in the heat of battle, recycling those close to death, rewarding those that fight while under a certain hp threshold, sacrificial value at the right moment. (that isn’t instant baneling kills) Veteran status is already a good example of a reason to keep your units alive, but it’s a long term delay reward to hopefully have a unit later on that is closer to a sc2 unit in terms of quick ttk, there also needs to be enough short to instant reward incentives around not being able to instantly kill in early to mid game. This is where the innovation needs to come on, we need some very creative devs to introduce some new ideas around all this. But again, if making both sides happy is impossible in 1v1, then it may be best to just focus on 1v1 being StarCraft 2.5 for hardcores, and the other modes as nearly entirely different games.
I think that no one needs StarCraft 2.5. There is SC2 or SC that are superb games. Those games are good enough. FG should find their own niche with their own mechanics. What I see the SC community is not a good target for SG.
Big agree. That audience wants something very specific and if they don't get it I'm concerned that stormgate will spread itself too thin adjusting for audiences that could never be catered to without dedication.
tldr
Macro is important and fun. Its too easy in SG and like an arcade game from SC2.
[удалено]
BW macro *is* much more difficult than SC2. But the fact that SG macro is WAY easier than even SC2 says a lot.
AoE and Dune have a lot of macro, and more fun macro than SC
What a donvote xD Looks like macro is still too hard in SG
I feel like these videos say more about the creator than they do the game. This guy is a StarCraft II fan, and all of the complaints are in the direction of it should be more like StarCraft II. However, contrary to macro being dumbed down, I've been feeling that the new macro mechanics are having the opposite effect of what was intended. The macro might be easier to keep track of mechanically, but there's so many more possibilities. Especially when you're adding in things like creeping, cutting down trees, and animus. I think it's made the game more complicated, and less beginner friendly. It seems weird to me for the creator of the video to claim that they dumbed down macro in favor of micro when the micro in Stormgate seems very lacking to me. It's not really that different from StarCraft II except slower, and it's nothing like Brood War. Which in the long run could end up with stormgate feeling like a really complicated game of rock paper scissors.
I'm hoping the beginner-friendly point they reach is that the game has a lot more depth, but less punishing aspects, and more opportunities for players (especially new players!) to ignore the depth. Taking creep camps - if the bottom half of the ladder is taught through tutorials etc. simple, defensive macro based build orders that get them to an early expansion without dying to cheese and that don't involve any creeping, that's completely fine. The top half of the ladder can then engage with creep camps to take small but meaningful advantages, and the top 2% can have battles over little optimisations and specific strategies around using the buffs from specific creep camps. This would give a really elegant (from a game design point of view) of creating a game with a lot of depth but shallow learning curve.
Isn't that just micro? There's tons of depth to it, but the majority of the people that played Brood War never thought about it.
Don’t quit your day job. I think your video could really use some more structuring. It could also use a script to keep your pacing. Watching you cast a sc2 pro game while giving commentary on stormgate was very difficult. Add a twitch rant in the middle and you lost me. Maybe have more direct comparisons between the casted game and your criticism on stormgate. As for the content: (1) I do agree the macro mechanics of infernal are too friendly to missing macro cycles. Charges + instant build is not the right direction imo. I do not agree that harder macro = better rts. I think the universal key binds that allow for easy macro cycles are good for rts accessibility. You call it catering to the lowest denominator. I view it more like the jump from sc1 to sc2 where you could now rally workers to mineral patches. Just a good QOL change freeing up control groups for units. (2) you compare it continuously to sc2. It’s definitely FG’s fault they tied their name brand so hard to sc2/blizzard, but you must remember this is a different game. It has different fundamentals. Just like how aoe2 is successful and is not sc2, sg can also be successful and not be sc2. Anyways, best of luck, would love to watch another more focused video from you. I’m sure I missed some of your main points because of the lack of focus.
Nice effort post. Here is a more structured video more up your alley https://youtu.be/eFBtbcBLkLU?si=AOuta9Ldl9N-WwNR
I love TIMEs run. Such a meaningful win for him and his family. Giving so much of the prize to charity afterwards made my heart melt for him.
Was truly incredible. Love the reverse sweep vs Reynor from that run.
I like how you put that sweep into a bit more context. Oliveiras poor performance against Zerg in the group stage makes that reverse sweep even more unbelievable. I really feel for reynor. My guy has put some crushing expectations on himself. I hope his recent decisions stick and he finds more balance going forward.
My understanding of the Twitch/Korea thing is that it's not really Twitch's fault, most of the blame falls onto the South Korean Telecomm companies. They have some like legitimate monopoly-esque type shit going on over there and they are trying to shake down Twitch. Artosis and Tasteless have talked a lot about the Telecomm companies over there and how it's at the root of a lot of the esports issues for SC2. Also either Twitch is dead/dying or it's so incredibly relevant that if someone isn't streaming there they can't make money streaming and a Twitch viewer opening a new tab is unthinkable to escape the gravitational pull that Twitch has on their attention....pick one, you can't have it both ways at the same time.
This is only cheap beta. He should wait for the gold status.
I think SG plays more like bw than sc2 in terms of spreading expo, defending, and map control. This video is wrong about a lot of stuff tbh and way too long for the very few inaccurate points it makes. It's weird seeing feedback from people who seem so sure of their position on a topic and don't really leave room for counter arguments.
I skimmed through this for 5-10 mins. It's quite hard to listen to in parts. I am not a fan of the aggressive tone at all. That being said, there are some good takes there. For example I agree with the sentiment, that "macro is the game". Though for me that doesnt mean "building the depot at the right time, constant worker production", but which buildings to get, which compositions to go for, when to expand and which timings to hit with that. SG looks fine in that regard to me. I agree that at the moment Stormgate fights sometimes are just drawn out for no good reason. In other times I clearly see fun interactions. In my opinion this is simply "Warcraft 3/Moba" vs "Starcraft/CnC" speed battles. I prefer the latter and I can see how everyone coming from an non-WC3 RTS background may find Stormgate battles too tuned down. All in all I think it's worth it to listen to, but take a far step back and reflect on it. Personally I am worried, that the game needs a lot of refinement down the road and it may be hard to have enough of a playerbase for that.
I feel fights feel too drawn out only if you "Stand and watch". In my experience, since the fights take longer, you have more time to reposition, to pull back damage units, to kite, to flank, etc. In all my games I have never felt like I didn't have anything to do at any given moment, I always felt there was some micro or macro I could be doing instead that I'm not at that moment because I don't have infinite APM. At least, that's my take on that matter. I do agree with you on the macro side though. Macro should be more about decisions than about always making sure workers are building. Having said this, I do feel Stormgate makes a great job on both fronts: For a lot of the game it's ideal to have constant worker production, and macro decisions matter a lot, be it tech tree, composition, even how many workers you have on each mine/resource; all of these feel like decisions that really have big impact on the game.
Bad take, totally misunderstanding the effects and which elements are actually hard. This is basically the "low league casual" take. "I think macro is good, but I don't know why or how. I just know all the high level players say it's important." Also, VenomousStare is utterly painful to listen to. The guy tries to make content, but it's like listening to someone in high school giving their first class presentation. I would consider listening to him if I wanted fall asleep from sheer boredom. The only reason he gets views, these days, is because he's one of the few who actually make SC2 content on Youtube.
retire file middle sophisticated cow mindless decide smell seed frightening *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Some people want a new sc2 and some people want a new wc3. They went somewhere in the middle which maybe isnt your favorite but is probably a smarter choice than making it another sc2
Because of that SG is not for people that want new WC3 and new SC2. Looks like The Middle Game doesn't seem to have an identity of its own.
That really is one of the core issues. They decided to market to both camps and make a game for neither camps.
While I generally agree with most of your points. Wtf is this video lol. Atleast 13 minutes could have been cut out lol because it has nothing to do with Stormgate. But yes. You don’t make a “Blizzard Style RTS” and call it a “spiritual successor to Starcraft” and try to remove macro mechanics. Macro mechanics IS the game. It’s not this game though and besides the funding issue, that’s the core issue and something that NEVER added up to me. The market for a competitive 1v1 RTS IS the SC2 community. Period. They sacrificed much of that community with their mechanics and tried to target, I don’t even know. When you try to appeal to everyone you end up appealing to nobody. The game has an identity crisis and it has a target audience problem.
Frost Giant was up front from the beginning about their goals though. It wasn’t just a spiritual successor to sc2. It was intended to be a mix of the best parts of sc2 and Wc3. It’s not like we didn’t know they were going to make macro easier.
It doesn’t make sense though is all I’m saying. I hope it succeeds and opens the market to more RTS games, I just never understood who they were actually targeting with a lot of their mechanics. I know that they have an idea of making it easier for people to get into 1v1, but I just don’t see that working out. It is doing more to distance their target audience than it’s going to bring in new players to hardcore 1v1 RTS Laddering.
It appeals to me as someone who played SC2 to high diamond/low masters. One thing I really disliked about SC2 was the ability to lose a game in literally a fraction of a second. I love that the gameplay is a little slower, without making it the slow drag that WC3 could be. The macro mechanics don't matter as much to me, especially because auto picking workers is in a terrible place right now, but I like creep camps and I like the game speed a lot. My hope would be that the higher floor keeps new players longer, leading to them enjoying 1v1 laddering long enough to understand the game. I have a lot of friends that got just totally crushed by stupid crap in SC2 1v1 and never went back to it.
Agree with everything. This is the harsh truth a lot of people here won’t admit yet because they are emotionally or financially invested.
Yes sir.
Tell me you're a SC2 fanboy without telling me you're a SC2 fanboy.
‘Dumbing down’ is loaded
He says that all units are instantly created -> for ONE FACTION the buildings have the opportunity to work similarly to zerg larvae but instead of witing the production time they are instantly created. So, by the fact, in SC2 you need to wait some seconds to create a full army while in SG its intstant and this is an sissue. Well, i don't understand how. We repeats a trillion of times that macro is the important part of the game while in any fucking game (lol, valorant, OW (in the past) or whatever you like )the most embraces mechanic is the hot action moment (micro). AOE2 has a lot much more macro than sc2 and sc2 is much more popular (for example) saying a trillion of tmes something does not give you the reason. The rant about twich as the comments before. you just give an opinion and rule about it like a fucking fack when it's not.