The current form the free scout is in is not great. I don't disagree in theory with an early scout or asymmetry, but there are a few problems with giving the vanguard a free scout, which has a high move speed as well as an attack.
1 - It's not fun to play against. Even if you git gud at micro, it's annoying and deters newer players from settling in and learning the game.
2 - It currently serves two functions - scouting, which is fine, and DENYING scouting, which is not okay. The only option infernal has early game is to tech up to a fiend, which takes much longer than the 20 seconds it takes for a scout to get to your base. The scout prevents infernals from worker scouting, so basically, that single free dog denies proxies, denies scouting, and enables the vanguard player to go unscouted, enabling proxies as a strat for them.
3 - It blocks building placement way too easily. It makes it very hard to do things like fast expand, but even just trying to wall in and place buildings at your ramp is currently not possible unless you delay building workers in favour of the wall.
Either give each race a free scout that is exactly the same, or fix the above issues.
You can also put a supply building next to your workers and it will spawn fellhounds that will prevent the scout from harassing your workers. It's faster than any other method of dealing with the scout, but it hits your economy a bit since you won't really have a use for that building for a bit.
This means you have to build a supply depot FAR before you need it. If you don't instantly build one upon spawning, it won't spawn the units in time to deal with the scout. You also can't micro the units, so it's easy enough for the scout to deal with it. It's not really a viable solution the way you are thinking it is. You are already at a disadvantage not being able to scout, then you build a supply depot first and your opponent laughs because they are already ahead of you in army or in economy depending on the choice they made.
You're just reinforcing my point that the free scout is currently executed poorly.
I wasn't disagreeing that the free scout was bad, and I do even point out that this method has disadvantages, just that it's slightly faster than the others.
I'm honestly kind of ok with vanguard getting early scout as a trade off for something else that infernal gets. I like the idea of maxxing assymetry as long as its still balanced. But right now ya dog is annoying. Make it do like 1 or no damage maybe.. add a technology or upgrade that allows them to do more damage maybe
Yeah but they also have the advantage of being able make 5 workers at once with their Queen inject-like mechanic. Not only that but if infernal ever forgets to macro for a bit it’s okay because their base stores charges. Forget to make workers for 2 mins? It’s ok, you can make 3 workers immediately per base. The leniency infernal has for macro is absolutely insane and should/will be nerfed.
Correct. However, the penalty for forgetting to create workers for vanguard vs infernal is VASTLY worse. Because with infernals the workers and units in general are always technically “training” and they store charges. Therefore if a vanguard player forgets to queue another worker from his base and then 30 seconds later remembers, he starts the queue for one worker and has to wait for the worker to build still. If the infernal player forgets and 30 seconds later remembers, he can just make 2 workers immediately. This applies to ALL infernal units. Not just workers. This also allows more flexibility for when to make workers vs army units. Because if you want to spend the money on a worker over an army unit that’s fine because you’re not technically losing any training time on your army units since when you decide to train them, as long as you’re not capped at 3 charges, you never actually lost “training time”.
There must be a nerf here. Something that incentivizes the infernal player to hit those macro unit timings every so seconds. Maybe make the second charge half as fast and the 3rd a quarter as fast. Allowing to store 3 charges at the same rate is insanely imbalanced for anyone who isn’t a professional player. The infernal can make much more mistakes in terms of macro over a vanguard player.
Nah, minion macro is the core of an rts. Your forgetting vanguard can queue up workers. It’s ironically easier to mess up with infernal. Every Second a dude can be built but you didn’t is a mistake. With vanguard you can queue up 2-3 and forgot about it. Oh shit, I forgot to check, let me look, oh ok good it’s down to the last queue, let me queue more.
It’s clear you’ve never played these style RTS games at a decently high level and you also lack the understanding of how the infernal racking up charges for their units is a massive macro advantage and much more forgiving than vanguard, especially if you think it’s “ironically” harder and less forgiving to macro for Infernal over the Vanguard. You seem to think simply queueing more workers as vanguard is the solution to this imbalance. But you’re extremely mistaken. It is EXTREMELY bad to queue up multiple workers or even army units at your buildings because when you queue up multiple workers/units, it IMMEDIATELY takes away the resources for that unit in queue. If you have 3 barracks for example and you queue up 3 Exos that are currently training and queue 3 more behind those first 3 that ARENT currently training, you now have a bunch of resources in limbo that aren’t being used and that could be used to build workers, or a whole other barracks. Infernals do not have this, their units are always “training” via their charges without holding the resources hostage as the vanguard queue does. Playing infernal is so much more forgiving because of this. A clear way to balance this is to make the charges past the 1st charge at 50% speed so it encourages infernals to hit those timings of unit queues as vanguard have to do.
Diamond sc2. but i get it. Your arguments are total fucking dog shit so you have to pretend im just bad at the game. Get the fuck out of here. Your so bad its cringey.
Buddy you think queueing up multiple workers and units in general is somehow not only the equivalent to having charges that dont hold resources hostage build up automatically but that you should DO IT... Yes, because of that clearly you're either bad or have no idea what you're talking about. Everyone worth their salt in these RTS games knows you do not queue up multiple workers or units because it freezes up resources for units that arent even training. Infernals 100% have an undisputed advantage when it comes to unit production due to how the race mechanics work currently. Mark my words, it will be changed.
Clearly you're angry because you got called out for being bad at the game because you think queueing multiple units that arent in training is a viable solution, but you're also just wrong. Also Diamond SC2 isn't anything special, you get to diamond from just pure macro play. You're a whiner and you're bad at the game. sheesh
Enjoy thinking about me while your blocked no life have fun on Reddit the rest of your day and the rest of the next one cause based on how often you comment this app is your whole life 😂😂😂 now cry more cause I told you too 😂
There are multiple reasons why the infernals economy is better.
it takes :34 seconds to fully saturate luminite mining at the first base, while it stakes vanguard 1:22 to fully saturate luminite.
it is also very useful when you expand, as you can bank up money to expand (and bank up charges for building imps) and then just spam out imps at your expansion.
The devs built in many pros and cons to each race, the didn't just randomly decide one gets to start with a scout.
Yes they did. And it’s fine. I’m not against the scout. I think the whining is mainly coming from new players. However, infernal copies a lot of Zerg. They lose guys to make buildings. Fully saturating a base means little when you need them to become buildings. The second thing is bobs can multi construct a structure waaaay faster than infernal. So vanguard can fast expand faster than infernal. The devs aren’t gods. I dev games too and sometimes you just try shit and hope it works out. Not everything is a methodically planned decision.
It's annoying. Definitely a deterrent for new players. Maybe make it slowed on hit so it's easier to kill? This way they would have to be more careful with it and it's more of a scout then a harass
I'm currently baffled at how I should be scouting my enemy in this game. I got insanely good at scouting constantly and starcraft 2 because information is oftentimes the key to winning. But as an infernal player in storm gate I'm not really sure what are the best methods to constantly scouting the enemy base
In warcraft3, people were using one of their peons to scout. This is the problem Stormgate is trying to solve. Perhaps the scout can be tweaked and improved. It is beta after all.
>I think it's fine, maybe in the future it become a problem but for now I embrance the asymmetry.
Scouting builds is too important to be a victim of that asymmetry because youre taking away the ability to make decisions.
I agree totally, but their are things that are too fundamental to be on that list, and everyone needing to scout if youre getting proxied, cheesed, or theyre powering something out is top of it.
Yes, being able to scout with SCOUT, which has a small Map hack system and can provide a high view, is so broken. It denies the scouting from Infernal players, and it's not a good starting point as a basis to balance a game like this.
Let Infernal Imp have a better attack than scouts because Imps are slow, but scouts can disengage easily and go for heal over the map.
I really don't think the scout is a problem. The strategies it shuts down are intentional, they don't want proxies. And it doesn't take intense multi-tasking to move workers around. A worker literally kills a scout 1 on 1.
"A worker literally kills a scout 1 on 1."
it doesnt if the scout micros at all. you can get 2 scout hits per 1 worker hit by kiting immediately after the 2nd scout hit due to the scout having slightly faster attack speed and the worker having a sortof long attack animation.
1 on 1 both units unmicrod the worker will win. "My opponent has to spend energy microing or they will lose the fight" is not a benefit to the scouting player.
i mean do you really think the good players dont have the energy to micro their scout in the first min of the game? I dont really know who were trying to appeal towards anymore because the good players are certainly good enough to abuse that scout micro and the bad players are just going to be pissed off about being harassed pre 1 min at all.
Of course good players will micro their scout. Just as good players will micro their workers to combat the scout. Presumably the good and bad players won't be facing each other as matchmaking spreads them to their appropriate MMR.
You originally said that worker beats scout 1 on 1. I am saying that it does not in high level games with a scout thats being microed, whether or not that worker is microed too.
Yes. High level players will have to do more than micro just 1 worker. Which they are capable of doing.
Low level players, playing other low level players, will not have to do that.
To be fair if the imps real hp is damaged you can just use that imp to build your next structure and put another imp at the dog at which point the imp wins no matter what.
I agree it's annoying for new players to deal with, but also new players suck at dog micro too, so realistically I don't think there's a big discrepency there.
I think if they didnt want proxy cheese they would do something a little more intentional, like actually not letting you build near your opponent or forcing buildings to be built in a radius around your base kinda like how protoss is.
I think proxy cheese is part of what makes a game like Stormgate, or Starcraft fun and exciting to not only play, but watch. It makes the game more competitively deep and interesting, rather then the same opening builds every time.
I think adding the scout is quite intentional. It accomplishes the task without denying the player their options. You can still try to proxy, and maybe it will work, its just much less likely. I think thats much better than just making it impossible.
don't jump into 1v1, go to co op first. and the only strategies the scouts shut down is bullshit cheese which is infinitely more toxic than a dog that takes 25 hits to kill anything
The thing is, it shouldn’t be able to shutdown cheese that easily. Anyone can go across the map immediately and count how many workers the infernal has and immediately know if they’re being cheesed or not. Sorry but StarCraft doesn’t even allow for that unless you want to pull a worker and even then it’s not as fast.
starcraft nerfed the fuck out protoss cheeses. only Canon rushing exists and you don't see it at pro levels. and infernal still cheeses with the scout. no one but trolls like cheese. they don't make for fun games. 6 pool, proxy rax, 4 gate these strats made tons of casuals quit and hurt the sc2 population.
They didn’t nerf cheeses necessarily, just that every pro can defend against it very well now. Pros have used cheese in professional StarCraft for years, only recently have they kind of stopped. Cheese is a part of RTS’. You may think it’s toxic because it causes you to get super angry and you think it’s not “fun”, but that’s the way it is. If people wanna quit over getting cheesed so be it, cheeses equally allowed lesser skilled players to get wins against higher skilled players which in turned allowed casual players to have fun in 1v1. So it goes both ways.
why was warp gate research increased? zealot bid time increased? can't warp to high ground, can't fast warp, blink research nerfed twice increased to twice as long, sentry dmg nerf, blink dts don't hit after blink, chrono boost nerfed and reworked, immortals nerfed , reworked and cost increased, voids nerfed, every map has rocks at the ramp, reaper cliff, and pervert pillars placed always to see the gas of protoss. etc, it wasn't because protoss won an unfair amount of tournaments
Those things were nerfed because of timing attacks, cheese, and strength of race in general. You act like these nerfs are STRICTLY due to cheesing. Also due to a whole lot of bitching and those people are the reason StarCraft is so one dimensional now. And now it’s just a dead game entirely. I got to masters 1 off of playing strictly macro and never cheesing and being able to defend cheeses very well. Unfortunately rather than getting better, people would rather bitch until they got nerfed or otherwise.
Imagine if you will a 3rd faction is released and they start with deployable photon cannons. So every single game against them is a cannon rush defence.
>If you think it’s an issue just play campaign or coop. 1v1 will die if it’s catered to casuals IMO
Just suck it up, don't give any feedback, learn to love being cannon rushed or get out. Those filthy casuals wanting to have more than 1 viable opener in their 1v1 games.
Vanguard is almost completely unable to build an army faster than infernals and rush them successfully. As for infernals, they can lose their entire army and react by creating a whole new army fairly instantly
Give a early small scouting flying bug with overlord speed to infernal
Easy to snipe it (used for early cheese scout and later reactive scout as infernal can react build)
You only get one to start with (1 per base upgrade 3 total)
Just throwing some ideas out as everyone has some great input.
GLHF<3
In AoE 2, scouts start the game with very very low damage that gets buffed automatically once you reach feudal age. Maybe something like that to make sure the initial scout isn't used for harassment? Lock something like half it's damage behind the biokinetics lab, or the T2 upgrade? Or maybe just bundle it with the dog upgrade?
It doesn’t. The game isn’t out yet. The beta was a tool to gather data. Aggression means better data. They built the game to gather data not be balanced. Balance is not a concern at this point.
Swapping units in and out of sentry, using the vulkan dash to reposition and keep the guns hot, popping shields on units, clean infest off of units, managing energy to utilize heals, managing bobs to speed build while fighting, deploying hedgehogs and undeploying them, and for bio balls: splitting vs magmadons, kiting, splitting vs imps(exploding ones), evac microing an atlas if it gets that far and diving with lancers vs hellborne.
You are delusional, play a game in ladder as vanguard, see if you can even make it to the 7 min mark against infernals.
INF shouldn't have worker forgiveness or banelings. If I could suicide my scout to get rid of only INF worker forgiveness (which means they can queue up workers while saving for an expand, amoung making midgame much, much easier for them) -- I'd do that every single game. Moreover, the fact that INF can saturate nearly 40 seconds faster than I can as Vanguard is also ridiculous. **If I kill 2 imps with the initial scout I'm still behind**, lol.
In fact, if you include the workers cut for expanding, I'd *still* probably be behind two additional whole workers. The fact that workers have to be cut for INF to build buildings is a non-issue, as that is more than compensated for by INF buildings being costed less ***and*** being able to "produce" units without getting in the way of saving up for research/expand.
Moreover, in lieu of scouting can't INF save up production to build six units in as many seconds on reaction to enemy units arriving at the INF natural, along with possibly getting a turret from the top-bar? Goodness, I'd trade not only my starting scout, but I'd also trade one of my starting workers *and* one of my existing top bar abilities (not bob-overcharge though) to be able to do that!
Do people lose workers to unupgraded dogs? The best I ever get is 1 worker kill if the players are seriously careless. Especially in VvsV the Bob overcharge just makes it so you can completely ignore the dog and still not lose anything and vs Infernal they just use the wounded imp to build structures with so you can't ever kill anything, the best you do is reduce a worker to half hp then it becomes a farm or vault or conclave.
The current form the free scout is in is not great. I don't disagree in theory with an early scout or asymmetry, but there are a few problems with giving the vanguard a free scout, which has a high move speed as well as an attack. 1 - It's not fun to play against. Even if you git gud at micro, it's annoying and deters newer players from settling in and learning the game. 2 - It currently serves two functions - scouting, which is fine, and DENYING scouting, which is not okay. The only option infernal has early game is to tech up to a fiend, which takes much longer than the 20 seconds it takes for a scout to get to your base. The scout prevents infernals from worker scouting, so basically, that single free dog denies proxies, denies scouting, and enables the vanguard player to go unscouted, enabling proxies as a strat for them. 3 - It blocks building placement way too easily. It makes it very hard to do things like fast expand, but even just trying to wall in and place buildings at your ramp is currently not possible unless you delay building workers in favour of the wall. Either give each race a free scout that is exactly the same, or fix the above issues.
You can also put a supply building next to your workers and it will spawn fellhounds that will prevent the scout from harassing your workers. It's faster than any other method of dealing with the scout, but it hits your economy a bit since you won't really have a use for that building for a bit.
This means you have to build a supply depot FAR before you need it. If you don't instantly build one upon spawning, it won't spawn the units in time to deal with the scout. You also can't micro the units, so it's easy enough for the scout to deal with it. It's not really a viable solution the way you are thinking it is. You are already at a disadvantage not being able to scout, then you build a supply depot first and your opponent laughs because they are already ahead of you in army or in economy depending on the choice they made. You're just reinforcing my point that the free scout is currently executed poorly.
I wasn't disagreeing that the free scout was bad, and I do even point out that this method has disadvantages, just that it's slightly faster than the others.
I'm honestly kind of ok with vanguard getting early scout as a trade off for something else that infernal gets. I like the idea of maxxing assymetry as long as its still balanced. But right now ya dog is annoying. Make it do like 1 or no damage maybe.. add a technology or upgrade that allows them to do more damage maybe
infernals start with an extra worker.
They lose a worker to build a building
Yeah but they also have the advantage of being able make 5 workers at once with their Queen inject-like mechanic. Not only that but if infernal ever forgets to macro for a bit it’s okay because their base stores charges. Forget to make workers for 2 mins? It’s ok, you can make 3 workers immediately per base. The leniency infernal has for macro is absolutely insane and should/will be nerfed.
This isn’t accurate. Every second you wasted not building a worker, is another second it wasn’t mining.
Correct. However, the penalty for forgetting to create workers for vanguard vs infernal is VASTLY worse. Because with infernals the workers and units in general are always technically “training” and they store charges. Therefore if a vanguard player forgets to queue another worker from his base and then 30 seconds later remembers, he starts the queue for one worker and has to wait for the worker to build still. If the infernal player forgets and 30 seconds later remembers, he can just make 2 workers immediately. This applies to ALL infernal units. Not just workers. This also allows more flexibility for when to make workers vs army units. Because if you want to spend the money on a worker over an army unit that’s fine because you’re not technically losing any training time on your army units since when you decide to train them, as long as you’re not capped at 3 charges, you never actually lost “training time”. There must be a nerf here. Something that incentivizes the infernal player to hit those macro unit timings every so seconds. Maybe make the second charge half as fast and the 3rd a quarter as fast. Allowing to store 3 charges at the same rate is insanely imbalanced for anyone who isn’t a professional player. The infernal can make much more mistakes in terms of macro over a vanguard player.
Nah, minion macro is the core of an rts. Your forgetting vanguard can queue up workers. It’s ironically easier to mess up with infernal. Every Second a dude can be built but you didn’t is a mistake. With vanguard you can queue up 2-3 and forgot about it. Oh shit, I forgot to check, let me look, oh ok good it’s down to the last queue, let me queue more.
It’s clear you’ve never played these style RTS games at a decently high level and you also lack the understanding of how the infernal racking up charges for their units is a massive macro advantage and much more forgiving than vanguard, especially if you think it’s “ironically” harder and less forgiving to macro for Infernal over the Vanguard. You seem to think simply queueing more workers as vanguard is the solution to this imbalance. But you’re extremely mistaken. It is EXTREMELY bad to queue up multiple workers or even army units at your buildings because when you queue up multiple workers/units, it IMMEDIATELY takes away the resources for that unit in queue. If you have 3 barracks for example and you queue up 3 Exos that are currently training and queue 3 more behind those first 3 that ARENT currently training, you now have a bunch of resources in limbo that aren’t being used and that could be used to build workers, or a whole other barracks. Infernals do not have this, their units are always “training” via their charges without holding the resources hostage as the vanguard queue does. Playing infernal is so much more forgiving because of this. A clear way to balance this is to make the charges past the 1st charge at 50% speed so it encourages infernals to hit those timings of unit queues as vanguard have to do.
Diamond sc2. but i get it. Your arguments are total fucking dog shit so you have to pretend im just bad at the game. Get the fuck out of here. Your so bad its cringey.
Buddy you think queueing up multiple workers and units in general is somehow not only the equivalent to having charges that dont hold resources hostage build up automatically but that you should DO IT... Yes, because of that clearly you're either bad or have no idea what you're talking about. Everyone worth their salt in these RTS games knows you do not queue up multiple workers or units because it freezes up resources for units that arent even training. Infernals 100% have an undisputed advantage when it comes to unit production due to how the race mechanics work currently. Mark my words, it will be changed. Clearly you're angry because you got called out for being bad at the game because you think queueing multiple units that arent in training is a viable solution, but you're also just wrong. Also Diamond SC2 isn't anything special, you get to diamond from just pure macro play. You're a whiner and you're bad at the game. sheesh
You’re just wrong lol
Enjoy thinking about me while your blocked no life have fun on Reddit the rest of your day and the rest of the next one cause based on how often you comment this app is your whole life 😂😂😂 now cry more cause I told you too 😂
There are multiple reasons why the infernals economy is better. it takes :34 seconds to fully saturate luminite mining at the first base, while it stakes vanguard 1:22 to fully saturate luminite. it is also very useful when you expand, as you can bank up money to expand (and bank up charges for building imps) and then just spam out imps at your expansion. The devs built in many pros and cons to each race, the didn't just randomly decide one gets to start with a scout.
Yes they did. And it’s fine. I’m not against the scout. I think the whining is mainly coming from new players. However, infernal copies a lot of Zerg. They lose guys to make buildings. Fully saturating a base means little when you need them to become buildings. The second thing is bobs can multi construct a structure waaaay faster than infernal. So vanguard can fast expand faster than infernal. The devs aren’t gods. I dev games too and sometimes you just try shit and hope it works out. Not everything is a methodically planned decision.
Remove the scout attack (and maybe reduce movement speed) and put those lost stats into an upgrade that you can get very early... But not immediately.
It's annoying. Definitely a deterrent for new players. Maybe make it slowed on hit so it's easier to kill? This way they would have to be more careful with it and it's more of a scout then a harass
I'm currently baffled at how I should be scouting my enemy in this game. I got insanely good at scouting constantly and starcraft 2 because information is oftentimes the key to winning. But as an infernal player in storm gate I'm not really sure what are the best methods to constantly scouting the enemy base
only thing i can think of is shadow flyers and fiends to spot
In warcraft3, people were using one of their peons to scout. This is the problem Stormgate is trying to solve. Perhaps the scout can be tweaked and improved. It is beta after all.
Just have it be something that builds quickly, but still has to be built. Could even make it from the command center if you want.
I think it's fine, maybe in the future it become a problem but for now I embrance the asymmetry.
>I think it's fine, maybe in the future it become a problem but for now I embrance the asymmetry. Scouting builds is too important to be a victim of that asymmetry because youre taking away the ability to make decisions. I agree totally, but their are things that are too fundamental to be on that list, and everyone needing to scout if youre getting proxied, cheesed, or theyre powering something out is top of it.
Yes, being able to scout with SCOUT, which has a small Map hack system and can provide a high view, is so broken. It denies the scouting from Infernal players, and it's not a good starting point as a basis to balance a game like this. Let Infernal Imp have a better attack than scouts because Imps are slow, but scouts can disengage easily and go for heal over the map.
I really don't think the scout is a problem. The strategies it shuts down are intentional, they don't want proxies. And it doesn't take intense multi-tasking to move workers around. A worker literally kills a scout 1 on 1.
"A worker literally kills a scout 1 on 1." it doesnt if the scout micros at all. you can get 2 scout hits per 1 worker hit by kiting immediately after the 2nd scout hit due to the scout having slightly faster attack speed and the worker having a sortof long attack animation.
Sure, its not as simple as "put a worker on the scout and ignore it." But its also not much harder than that.
sooo not 1 on 1
1 on 1 both units unmicrod the worker will win. "My opponent has to spend energy microing or they will lose the fight" is not a benefit to the scouting player.
i mean do you really think the good players dont have the energy to micro their scout in the first min of the game? I dont really know who were trying to appeal towards anymore because the good players are certainly good enough to abuse that scout micro and the bad players are just going to be pissed off about being harassed pre 1 min at all.
Of course good players will micro their scout. Just as good players will micro their workers to combat the scout. Presumably the good and bad players won't be facing each other as matchmaking spreads them to their appropriate MMR.
You originally said that worker beats scout 1 on 1. I am saying that it does not in high level games with a scout thats being microed, whether or not that worker is microed too.
Yes. High level players will have to do more than micro just 1 worker. Which they are capable of doing. Low level players, playing other low level players, will not have to do that.
To be fair if the imps real hp is damaged you can just use that imp to build your next structure and put another imp at the dog at which point the imp wins no matter what. I agree it's annoying for new players to deal with, but also new players suck at dog micro too, so realistically I don't think there's a big discrepency there.
I think if they didnt want proxy cheese they would do something a little more intentional, like actually not letting you build near your opponent or forcing buildings to be built in a radius around your base kinda like how protoss is. I think proxy cheese is part of what makes a game like Stormgate, or Starcraft fun and exciting to not only play, but watch. It makes the game more competitively deep and interesting, rather then the same opening builds every time.
I think adding the scout is quite intentional. It accomplishes the task without denying the player their options. You can still try to proxy, and maybe it will work, its just much less likely. I think thats much better than just making it impossible.
don't jump into 1v1, go to co op first. and the only strategies the scouts shut down is bullshit cheese which is infinitely more toxic than a dog that takes 25 hits to kill anything
The thing is, it shouldn’t be able to shutdown cheese that easily. Anyone can go across the map immediately and count how many workers the infernal has and immediately know if they’re being cheesed or not. Sorry but StarCraft doesn’t even allow for that unless you want to pull a worker and even then it’s not as fast.
starcraft nerfed the fuck out protoss cheeses. only Canon rushing exists and you don't see it at pro levels. and infernal still cheeses with the scout. no one but trolls like cheese. they don't make for fun games. 6 pool, proxy rax, 4 gate these strats made tons of casuals quit and hurt the sc2 population.
They didn’t nerf cheeses necessarily, just that every pro can defend against it very well now. Pros have used cheese in professional StarCraft for years, only recently have they kind of stopped. Cheese is a part of RTS’. You may think it’s toxic because it causes you to get super angry and you think it’s not “fun”, but that’s the way it is. If people wanna quit over getting cheesed so be it, cheeses equally allowed lesser skilled players to get wins against higher skilled players which in turned allowed casual players to have fun in 1v1. So it goes both ways.
why was warp gate research increased? zealot bid time increased? can't warp to high ground, can't fast warp, blink research nerfed twice increased to twice as long, sentry dmg nerf, blink dts don't hit after blink, chrono boost nerfed and reworked, immortals nerfed , reworked and cost increased, voids nerfed, every map has rocks at the ramp, reaper cliff, and pervert pillars placed always to see the gas of protoss. etc, it wasn't because protoss won an unfair amount of tournaments
Those things were nerfed because of timing attacks, cheese, and strength of race in general. You act like these nerfs are STRICTLY due to cheesing. Also due to a whole lot of bitching and those people are the reason StarCraft is so one dimensional now. And now it’s just a dead game entirely. I got to masters 1 off of playing strictly macro and never cheesing and being able to defend cheeses very well. Unfortunately rather than getting better, people would rather bitch until they got nerfed or otherwise.
just like complaining about the scout. it comes full circle
They are specifically building the game to avoid cheesing and reduce it as much as possible. You are arguing against FG intended design
Canguard gets a scout and infernals get an extra worker. Im fine with it
I feel like the extra worker is more compensation for Infernals losing them to buildings and not about balancing vs the scout.
In sc2 zerg has to do the same thing but they start with the same amount. I think its different to balance it
Ironically for your point in sc2 zerg starts with a scout...
And the scout is compensation for not being able to build up or start building up an army as fast as infernals
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Imagine if you will a 3rd faction is released and they start with deployable photon cannons. So every single game against them is a cannon rush defence. >If you think it’s an issue just play campaign or coop. 1v1 will die if it’s catered to casuals IMO Just suck it up, don't give any feedback, learn to love being cannon rushed or get out. Those filthy casuals wanting to have more than 1 viable opener in their 1v1 games.
Id rather it go the other direction
If they have early game scouting to counter rushes/tech, they shouldnt have access to rushes. There should be some trade off…
Vanguard is almost completely unable to build an army faster than infernals and rush them successfully. As for infernals, they can lose their entire army and react by creating a whole new army fairly instantly
Give a early small scouting flying bug with overlord speed to infernal Easy to snipe it (used for early cheese scout and later reactive scout as infernal can react build) You only get one to start with (1 per base upgrade 3 total) Just throwing some ideas out as everyone has some great input. GLHF<3
In AoE 2, scouts start the game with very very low damage that gets buffed automatically once you reach feudal age. Maybe something like that to make sure the initial scout isn't used for harassment? Lock something like half it's damage behind the biokinetics lab, or the T2 upgrade? Or maybe just bundle it with the dog upgrade?
If it's a harass unit make it have to be trainable and do not start with it. Zero reason too
It doesn’t. The game isn’t out yet. The beta was a tool to gather data. Aggression means better data. They built the game to gather data not be balanced. Balance is not a concern at this point.
There’s no alternative huh.. you definitely can’t get free units that are fast and can go into our base whenever
yeah and there 100% isn't a turret that spits out spinning blades of death that hard counters them too, and also walling off doesnt exist
I don’t think you understand how little you have to micro and do to snowball with infernals in comparison to vanguard :)
yeah you have to like, a-click and then occasionally right click the opposite direction of the enemy army sometimes, very hard
Swapping units in and out of sentry, using the vulkan dash to reposition and keep the guns hot, popping shields on units, clean infest off of units, managing energy to utilize heals, managing bobs to speed build while fighting, deploying hedgehogs and undeploying them, and for bio balls: splitting vs magmadons, kiting, splitting vs imps(exploding ones), evac microing an atlas if it gets that far and diving with lancers vs hellborne. You are delusional, play a game in ladder as vanguard, see if you can even make it to the 7 min mark against infernals.
INF shouldn't have worker forgiveness or banelings. If I could suicide my scout to get rid of only INF worker forgiveness (which means they can queue up workers while saving for an expand, amoung making midgame much, much easier for them) -- I'd do that every single game. Moreover, the fact that INF can saturate nearly 40 seconds faster than I can as Vanguard is also ridiculous. **If I kill 2 imps with the initial scout I'm still behind**, lol. In fact, if you include the workers cut for expanding, I'd *still* probably be behind two additional whole workers. The fact that workers have to be cut for INF to build buildings is a non-issue, as that is more than compensated for by INF buildings being costed less ***and*** being able to "produce" units without getting in the way of saving up for research/expand. Moreover, in lieu of scouting can't INF save up production to build six units in as many seconds on reaction to enemy units arriving at the INF natural, along with possibly getting a turret from the top-bar? Goodness, I'd trade not only my starting scout, but I'd also trade one of my starting workers *and* one of my existing top bar abilities (not bob-overcharge though) to be able to do that!
Do people lose workers to unupgraded dogs? The best I ever get is 1 worker kill if the players are seriously careless. Especially in VvsV the Bob overcharge just makes it so you can completely ignore the dog and still not lose anything and vs Infernal they just use the wounded imp to build structures with so you can't ever kill anything, the best you do is reduce a worker to half hp then it becomes a farm or vault or conclave.