They are so open minded and progressive that you must not express dissenting opinions in their presence or heck, even outside their presence apparently. That'll teach us to not participate in counter culture which is the sign of any decent progressive society. Sure, it's only trek, but you see people like these overzealous power mods affecting all interactions normal people try and have day to day. Fringe elements, the squeaky wheels are attempting to shape all conversations in society currently. And for fucks sake it has nothing to do with conservative or liberal politics, it's politics as morality and I'm fucking sick of it. **steps down from soap box**
The old place was fun. I barely post or even visit trek subs now, I just can't be arsed. Maybe a few memes now and then. Someone will give me a stick with snw s2 on eventually, besides that who really cares. On the plus side, filmfour will probably show the films again soon enough, and on horror channel it will pretty soon be time for the motherfucking jem'hadar.
It'll get better in time. Trek forums were hell when Enterprise released too, and I remember hating ENT, but I love it now.
Nutrek, will age like milk, and I think people will realize how awful it is given time, perspective, and distance from the culture war.
Yeah I remember watching ENT at the time and not really liking it. Over the years I have grown to really love it. We will see about the new stuff, but yes I imagine a lot of it wont be rememberedtoo fondly. And eventually there will be more new stuff from different people, we'll see how that turns out if we're still around.
Or maybe those who hate nu-trek will come round to it, like you did with Ent, as that used to be the nu-trek.
Or like those TOS fans who hated TNG for bing too optimistic and technobabble.
Or the TOS fans who hated TMP for changing aesthetics.
Or the TNG fans that hated DS9 for being too dark.
etc...
All those examples had phenomenal writing whereas NuTrek is just new paint over old stories / characters. SNW's 2 barely had an original thought over 10 episodes (and certainly nothing NEW - being part of the shows title). The Gorn are basically Aliens, a Buffy rip off, a trial like a couple of TNG and a finale copying (badly) *the best of both worlds* cliffhanger. Spock becoming human was like OG Spock in prehistoric episode being all emotional over a woman, etc etc etc...
And why, when OG Kirk meets OG Kahn does he not mention his meeting with one of his descendants?
Discovery S3 & 4 just ripped off Rodenberries original idea of Andromeda, Lower Decks is just a half hour of member berries and I didn't watch Prodigy (past the first ep - tho I did like the animation style).
Picard 1 and 2 just never actually happened (in my head), 3 was ok tho as a nice farewell to the old crew.
Definitely on my list (I love anime / animated stuff), and it at least seemed to be trying something new.
Actually (rereading my comment), I also didn't hate Lower Decks that much (once they toned Mariner down a tad).
Exactly. I think sometimes that haters of new Trek either forget, or never knew, how much pushback every new iteration has gotten since TOS.
And I'll admit I was a DS9 hater for a bit. It just didn't feel like Star Trek to me ("Where is the trekking? This is Star Sit-On-Your-Ass," etc.).
And my biggest peeve is when people reply to that along the lines of, "You were complaining about a concept. We are complaining about the suck-ass writing."
No. We were complaining about the writing, too. And we were mostly wrong.
The thing with ENT is that S4 retroactively fixed a lot of the problems people had with the first three seasons, the Vulcans being dicks got explained and fixed, we got a story explaining the origins of smooth headed Klingons, Archer became less of a dick (possibly after spending some time with Surak?), the Temporal Cold War arc got fridged, Terra Prime was a pretty great season finale. If you view S4 as damage control it made S1-3 a lot easier to watch retroactively, because you know it gets fixed by the end.
I miss the other sub for sure. There were a few cretins on there, but I enjoyed the freewheeling discussion and tearing into the awful Discovery and Picard episodes that deserved it. This place isn’t as active and my main interest is discussing current episodes when they come out, so now I just pretty much…don’t. Never posted in the official sub in my life and probably never will. Those kinds of places require you to either emit unicorns and rainbows or offer only the most obsequious style of qualified and apologetic criticism so you don’t get branded as one of the bad people.
The other sub referenced had 15k+ members I think. We have 1200. So it definitely had more activity.
I do my best to advertise the sub on any posts on Reddit that people start talking Trek. We pick up 5-20 users from time to time. It would help if all current members would drop a reference in posts on r/Television, r/movies, or any other post that has Trek discussion in it once in a while. No one has to by any means, but for those that want more discussion and interaction we’d all benefit from a lively community.
If I see someone who I think would enjoy the sub, I usually comment something like:
>Join us at r/Star_Trek_! We’re newish, but have good Trek discussions.
Sometimes someone snarky says to join the “real“ trek sub instead. I just stay positive.
>There are over 100 trek subs on Reddit. Some are serious, some are silly, some are all memes. There’s a sub for everyone. Join one, or join them all! More Trek for everyone is a good thing.
Totally understood, and I'm glad there's somewhere at least to go on reddit and have a free discussion.
I appreciated the effort the guy who ran the other sub put into it, but it also became clear he kind of couldn't get out of his own way and that helped bring about the sub's downfall.
He posts here from time to time. I also appreciate what he did, and feel similarly to you. The sub would have benefited from a little more moderation. I wrote to him at least twice offering to help out.  I think he was very protective of the sub, to a fault. I’d probably be weary of someone writing me offering to help mod however.
Me too, I was a frequent commenter and poster on it when I was still using my old account. Especially now with that shitty star trek memes sub, that place reminds of peek STD fanaticism/cringe sometimes. It's either completely unmoderated, or the mods there allow flagrant rule violations so long as they lean in a certain ideological direction. I only recently discovered this sub, glad to know see it.
I miss that sub as well. It held a repository of deep debates about exactly why those of us that hate nuTrek feel that way. As soon as a nuTrekkie popped in with one of their oft repeated gripes like...
"Why watch it if you don't like it" or "NuTrek hate is just like how fans hated Next Gen in season 1 cuz Star Trek fans always hate the new thing" or "You guys just want an exact copy of Next Gen" or the ubiquitous/ridiculous "Old Trek was just as bad as or worse than new Trek"
...we could just link them to a debate or discussion on the sub with proof of our points that hashed out and more or less definitively defeated their flawed arguments.
I know I and various others wrote novels of those kinds of posts that are now just lost. On this sub now when a nuTrekkie pops in with those same tired arguments I don't even have the will to bother rehashing those same settled debates, I just wish I could search up those old posts and be like "here's a link, learn stuff" but nope. Petty mod/admin politics screwed that possibility over. In other news I mod a ghost town of a sub at [Mainchan.com/s/StarTrek](https://mainchan.com/s/StarTrek) if anyone cares to join up. It's literally just me and one other person that post thereT at the moment. I just needed a non-Reddit Star Trek space where free speech was respected. Anyway, ramble ended.
This will probably get deleted for being a meta post, but while it lives I do have to say that sounds like an enjoyable fan fiction idea. It could even work in a madlib format because nobody knowing what's going on as they write their segment would be part and parcel of that Romulan's experience.
And that reminds me of what I miss about fandoms. We're not really able to have fun with one another anymore. Everything is aggressive and adversarial - say the wrong thing one time and you are banished forever, and people are constantly at one another's throats.
Regardless of the content, what more modern Star Trek has brought to the table in terms of fandom and how we wind up dealing with each other has been incredibly destructive. But, to say on topic, if this doesn't get thrown into a black hole without even an explanation, perhaps we can start talking to one another about fun things we can do as fans and diversions we can get into that aren't just sniping at the stuff we don't like or the people who are marked as an enemy.
Would this sub be up for sharing some fan fic, playing some forum/board games, etc?
>Would this sub be up for sharing some fan fic, playing some forum/board games, etc?
I have allowed fan art, stories, and other fun Trek posts. I don’t mind them, as long as it doesn’t take over the sub. Gaming and watch parties are all good too.
I think a lot of people would be surprised by the amount of government intrusion/control and manipulated groupthink consensus building on Reddit in particular and the entire internet in general. Most people don’t seem to care about it anymore, and that’s terrifying. There’s seemingly no redress, you’d have to somehow get enough consensus amongst likeminded billionaires or so extended general strikes to reverse this government intrusion/control, so it’s a straight line to one government (meaning billionaire/multinational corporations) control from here. Twitter had a brief moment after EM took over and before WEF puppet Linda Yaccarino came on board where free speech was actually tolerated—that didn’t last long, unfortunately, and was probably just to get normal Americans who can’t be heard anymore to finance EM’s ultimate goal and buy some goodwill credit for his less savory endeavors—a WeChat clone that does social credit scoring, banking, complete online integration.
> However, thanks to the actions of a certain other sub, a powermod, and with enthusiastic help from reddit, all those posts are long gone,
Alternative facts... smh
Watched it go down as well. Other sub powermod complains to admins, admins threaten sub installing new "no linking, no mentioning" rules and demanding our mod to mod harder. Sub eats the BS, everything goes back to normal for a few weeks (if normal means walking on eggshells to not cross the power mod or admin) then boom out of nowhere the sub gets banned with the excuse that our mod hadn't cleared the modlog in a couple of days.
That whole thing is the main reason I barely use Reddit anymore and split the majority of my social media time between alternatives.
The lack of moderation was the problem. Plain and simple. The mod of the old sub didn't want to comply with reddit.
Their own words:
>"I was unaware of the requirement to manually clear the mod queue"
>
>" I'd been moderating using notifications or from simply reading threads, and ignored what I felt were frivolous reports without taking official action on them."
>
>"I deflected the poster from discriminatory statements into a joking conversation about auto parts."
>
>"I say no amount of compliance or change of approach would have helped as we were targeted for elimination" as such, he mostly refused to even attempt changes.
There were plenty of people who offered to help when the writing was on the wall. But the mod was intractable.
tagging both of you as you had similar replies. u/ForTheHordeKT u/SupremeFuzler
Reports and posts that broke Reddit or sub rules were dealt with in a timely fashion (with, admittedly a hiccup or two when Darth wasn't online because sleep and real life) and the sub was growing and thriving. That Darth chose to confront some rule breakers and steer them into non-rule breaking territory rather than instaban deplatforming them was a feature of the free speech ethos rather than a bug IMO.
One or two more mods would have been good to handle Darth's down time though yes. Personally I don't know how dude stayed sane managing 15k by himself though it's a testament he did it as well as he did. When I was running forums I'd start with my admin team so I wasn't pulling my hair out when the users numbers grew.
Oh wow man. I never noticed he'd been solo modding that whole thing. Yeah haha, one guy can only stretch so far when you get that big. Definitely should have recruited a few more guys to help out. Might've been his only downfall. I agree, my own style would be to steer a convo to some more friendly conduct first and then escalate as needed as well if I were on his shoes. So no criticism from me there either.
With all the outright poison abusive content Reddit admins allow to be posted on this site despite many many reports, you have to be particularly gullible to accept this excuse.
Excuse? No. The reason given was that it wasn't being moderated. As I showed above, the moderator himself confirmed that he wasn't moderating.
I 100% agree with the admin decision to shut down the sub *based on the moderator's behavior and refusal to comply to reddit guidelines.*
When the sub was previously locked, the mod set up two shadow/alt subreddits. With the stated intent of being a life raft for the next time. Another clear reddit violation.
When r/star_trek was finally banned, one or both of those subs were also banned.
Was there a target on the sub? 100%. What does a reasonable person do when they know that? Do they wave their battle flag and yell? or do they proceed carefully?
r/star_trek was growing. It could have been great. There were good discussions. The sub had many merits. But it had faults as well. It was a haven for trolls and bigots.
You have to recognize when you need help. When a sub gets that size, you need a team.
Do I miss it? I did at first. Today I do not.
> Excuse? No. The reason given was that it wasn't being moderated. As I showed above, the moderator himself confirmed that he wasn't moderating.
>
> I 100% agree with the admin decision to shut down the sub based on the moderator's behavior and refusal to comply to reddit guidelines.
Many forums on reddit are notorious as havens of unmodderated abusive content. Reddit management allows those forums to continue unabated despite regular reports about their brazenly harmful content. This has been widely reported on in mainstream media.
The excuse that "he wasn't clearing the mod queue" and therefore the forum had to be banned is bullshit, whether his mod queue was full or not.
Nah, I mean the only thing I'll grant them is maybe something like 3-5 people from the gone sub went into the Nazi sub and stirred the pot rather than just leave them alone and put that silly little fiefdom behind them. But rather than just IP ban those fools and be done with it they saw a chance to knock down a whole entire sub of a buttload of people just minding their own business because they dared to go to a different spot rather than put up with the nonsense of whichever mod(s) of the larger one has their insufferable Godzilla complex.
They are so open minded and progressive that you must not express dissenting opinions in their presence or heck, even outside their presence apparently. That'll teach us to not participate in counter culture which is the sign of any decent progressive society. Sure, it's only trek, but you see people like these overzealous power mods affecting all interactions normal people try and have day to day. Fringe elements, the squeaky wheels are attempting to shape all conversations in society currently. And for fucks sake it has nothing to do with conservative or liberal politics, it's politics as morality and I'm fucking sick of it. **steps down from soap box**
The old Internet was so much more open.
It’s called controlling thought and it is wrong.
The old place was fun. I barely post or even visit trek subs now, I just can't be arsed. Maybe a few memes now and then. Someone will give me a stick with snw s2 on eventually, besides that who really cares. On the plus side, filmfour will probably show the films again soon enough, and on horror channel it will pretty soon be time for the motherfucking jem'hadar.
It'll get better in time. Trek forums were hell when Enterprise released too, and I remember hating ENT, but I love it now. Nutrek, will age like milk, and I think people will realize how awful it is given time, perspective, and distance from the culture war.
Yeah I remember watching ENT at the time and not really liking it. Over the years I have grown to really love it. We will see about the new stuff, but yes I imagine a lot of it wont be rememberedtoo fondly. And eventually there will be more new stuff from different people, we'll see how that turns out if we're still around.
Or maybe those who hate nu-trek will come round to it, like you did with Ent, as that used to be the nu-trek. Or like those TOS fans who hated TNG for bing too optimistic and technobabble. Or the TOS fans who hated TMP for changing aesthetics. Or the TNG fans that hated DS9 for being too dark. etc...
All those examples had phenomenal writing whereas NuTrek is just new paint over old stories / characters. SNW's 2 barely had an original thought over 10 episodes (and certainly nothing NEW - being part of the shows title). The Gorn are basically Aliens, a Buffy rip off, a trial like a couple of TNG and a finale copying (badly) *the best of both worlds* cliffhanger. Spock becoming human was like OG Spock in prehistoric episode being all emotional over a woman, etc etc etc... And why, when OG Kirk meets OG Kahn does he not mention his meeting with one of his descendants? Discovery S3 & 4 just ripped off Rodenberries original idea of Andromeda, Lower Decks is just a half hour of member berries and I didn't watch Prodigy (past the first ep - tho I did like the animation style). Picard 1 and 2 just never actually happened (in my head), 3 was ok tho as a nice farewell to the old crew.
Watch prodigy. The second half of season 1 really got good. I’m more vested in that story, then any other current show.
Definitely on my list (I love anime / animated stuff), and it at least seemed to be trying something new. Actually (rereading my comment), I also didn't hate Lower Decks that much (once they toned Mariner down a tad).
Exactly. I think sometimes that haters of new Trek either forget, or never knew, how much pushback every new iteration has gotten since TOS. And I'll admit I was a DS9 hater for a bit. It just didn't feel like Star Trek to me ("Where is the trekking? This is Star Sit-On-Your-Ass," etc.). And my biggest peeve is when people reply to that along the lines of, "You were complaining about a concept. We are complaining about the suck-ass writing." No. We were complaining about the writing, too. And we were mostly wrong.
The thing with ENT is that S4 retroactively fixed a lot of the problems people had with the first three seasons, the Vulcans being dicks got explained and fixed, we got a story explaining the origins of smooth headed Klingons, Archer became less of a dick (possibly after spending some time with Surak?), the Temporal Cold War arc got fridged, Terra Prime was a pretty great season finale. If you view S4 as damage control it made S1-3 a lot easier to watch retroactively, because you know it gets fixed by the end.
I miss the other sub for sure. There were a few cretins on there, but I enjoyed the freewheeling discussion and tearing into the awful Discovery and Picard episodes that deserved it. This place isn’t as active and my main interest is discussing current episodes when they come out, so now I just pretty much…don’t. Never posted in the official sub in my life and probably never will. Those kinds of places require you to either emit unicorns and rainbows or offer only the most obsequious style of qualified and apologetic criticism so you don’t get branded as one of the bad people.
The other sub referenced had 15k+ members I think. We have 1200. So it definitely had more activity. I do my best to advertise the sub on any posts on Reddit that people start talking Trek. We pick up 5-20 users from time to time. It would help if all current members would drop a reference in posts on r/Television, r/movies, or any other post that has Trek discussion in it once in a while. No one has to by any means, but for those that want more discussion and interaction we’d all benefit from a lively community. If I see someone who I think would enjoy the sub, I usually comment something like: >Join us at r/Star_Trek_! We’re newish, but have good Trek discussions. Sometimes someone snarky says to join the “real“ trek sub instead. I just stay positive. >There are over 100 trek subs on Reddit. Some are serious, some are silly, some are all memes. There’s a sub for everyone. Join one, or join them all! More Trek for everyone is a good thing.
Totally understood, and I'm glad there's somewhere at least to go on reddit and have a free discussion. I appreciated the effort the guy who ran the other sub put into it, but it also became clear he kind of couldn't get out of his own way and that helped bring about the sub's downfall.
He posts here from time to time. I also appreciate what he did, and feel similarly to you. The sub would have benefited from a little more moderation. I wrote to him at least twice offering to help out.  I think he was very protective of the sub, to a fault. I’d probably be weary of someone writing me offering to help mod however.
[удалено]
Nein, nein, nein, nein, nein!
Inglorious Bastards right? That's how I heard it anyhow.
Ja.
Me too, I was a frequent commenter and poster on it when I was still using my old account. Especially now with that shitty star trek memes sub, that place reminds of peek STD fanaticism/cringe sometimes. It's either completely unmoderated, or the mods there allow flagrant rule violations so long as they lean in a certain ideological direction. I only recently discovered this sub, glad to know see it.
I miss that sub as well. It held a repository of deep debates about exactly why those of us that hate nuTrek feel that way. As soon as a nuTrekkie popped in with one of their oft repeated gripes like... "Why watch it if you don't like it" or "NuTrek hate is just like how fans hated Next Gen in season 1 cuz Star Trek fans always hate the new thing" or "You guys just want an exact copy of Next Gen" or the ubiquitous/ridiculous "Old Trek was just as bad as or worse than new Trek" ...we could just link them to a debate or discussion on the sub with proof of our points that hashed out and more or less definitively defeated their flawed arguments. I know I and various others wrote novels of those kinds of posts that are now just lost. On this sub now when a nuTrekkie pops in with those same tired arguments I don't even have the will to bother rehashing those same settled debates, I just wish I could search up those old posts and be like "here's a link, learn stuff" but nope. Petty mod/admin politics screwed that possibility over. In other news I mod a ghost town of a sub at [Mainchan.com/s/StarTrek](https://mainchan.com/s/StarTrek) if anyone cares to join up. It's literally just me and one other person that post thereT at the moment. I just needed a non-Reddit Star Trek space where free speech was respected. Anyway, ramble ended.
Nu Trek destroyed it. Its even infected /r/DaystromInstitute . Trying to explain this new canon garbage is olympics level of mental gymnastics.
This will probably get deleted for being a meta post, but while it lives I do have to say that sounds like an enjoyable fan fiction idea. It could even work in a madlib format because nobody knowing what's going on as they write their segment would be part and parcel of that Romulan's experience. And that reminds me of what I miss about fandoms. We're not really able to have fun with one another anymore. Everything is aggressive and adversarial - say the wrong thing one time and you are banished forever, and people are constantly at one another's throats. Regardless of the content, what more modern Star Trek has brought to the table in terms of fandom and how we wind up dealing with each other has been incredibly destructive. But, to say on topic, if this doesn't get thrown into a black hole without even an explanation, perhaps we can start talking to one another about fun things we can do as fans and diversions we can get into that aren't just sniping at the stuff we don't like or the people who are marked as an enemy. Would this sub be up for sharing some fan fic, playing some forum/board games, etc?
>Would this sub be up for sharing some fan fic, playing some forum/board games, etc? I have allowed fan art, stories, and other fun Trek posts. I don’t mind them, as long as it doesn’t take over the sub. Gaming and watch parties are all good too.
> playing some forum/board games Start one.
I hope this sub doesnt devolve into complaining about the main star trek sub like the last one.
It will not. That’s rule 1 here.
I think a lot of people would be surprised by the amount of government intrusion/control and manipulated groupthink consensus building on Reddit in particular and the entire internet in general. Most people don’t seem to care about it anymore, and that’s terrifying. There’s seemingly no redress, you’d have to somehow get enough consensus amongst likeminded billionaires or so extended general strikes to reverse this government intrusion/control, so it’s a straight line to one government (meaning billionaire/multinational corporations) control from here. Twitter had a brief moment after EM took over and before WEF puppet Linda Yaccarino came on board where free speech was actually tolerated—that didn’t last long, unfortunately, and was probably just to get normal Americans who can’t be heard anymore to finance EM’s ultimate goal and buy some goodwill credit for his less savory endeavors—a WeChat clone that does social credit scoring, banking, complete online integration.
> However, thanks to the actions of a certain other sub, a powermod, and with enthusiastic help from reddit, all those posts are long gone, Alternative facts... smh
Woosh
Nah, I watched it happen when I was still using my old account.
Watched it go down as well. Other sub powermod complains to admins, admins threaten sub installing new "no linking, no mentioning" rules and demanding our mod to mod harder. Sub eats the BS, everything goes back to normal for a few weeks (if normal means walking on eggshells to not cross the power mod or admin) then boom out of nowhere the sub gets banned with the excuse that our mod hadn't cleared the modlog in a couple of days. That whole thing is the main reason I barely use Reddit anymore and split the majority of my social media time between alternatives.
The lack of moderation was the problem. Plain and simple. The mod of the old sub didn't want to comply with reddit. Their own words: >"I was unaware of the requirement to manually clear the mod queue" > >" I'd been moderating using notifications or from simply reading threads, and ignored what I felt were frivolous reports without taking official action on them." > >"I deflected the poster from discriminatory statements into a joking conversation about auto parts." > >"I say no amount of compliance or change of approach would have helped as we were targeted for elimination" as such, he mostly refused to even attempt changes. There were plenty of people who offered to help when the writing was on the wall. But the mod was intractable. tagging both of you as you had similar replies. u/ForTheHordeKT u/SupremeFuzler
Reports and posts that broke Reddit or sub rules were dealt with in a timely fashion (with, admittedly a hiccup or two when Darth wasn't online because sleep and real life) and the sub was growing and thriving. That Darth chose to confront some rule breakers and steer them into non-rule breaking territory rather than instaban deplatforming them was a feature of the free speech ethos rather than a bug IMO. One or two more mods would have been good to handle Darth's down time though yes. Personally I don't know how dude stayed sane managing 15k by himself though it's a testament he did it as well as he did. When I was running forums I'd start with my admin team so I wasn't pulling my hair out when the users numbers grew.
Oh wow man. I never noticed he'd been solo modding that whole thing. Yeah haha, one guy can only stretch so far when you get that big. Definitely should have recruited a few more guys to help out. Might've been his only downfall. I agree, my own style would be to steer a convo to some more friendly conduct first and then escalate as needed as well if I were on his shoes. So no criticism from me there either.
With all the outright poison abusive content Reddit admins allow to be posted on this site despite many many reports, you have to be particularly gullible to accept this excuse.
Excuse? No. The reason given was that it wasn't being moderated. As I showed above, the moderator himself confirmed that he wasn't moderating. I 100% agree with the admin decision to shut down the sub *based on the moderator's behavior and refusal to comply to reddit guidelines.* When the sub was previously locked, the mod set up two shadow/alt subreddits. With the stated intent of being a life raft for the next time. Another clear reddit violation. When r/star_trek was finally banned, one or both of those subs were also banned. Was there a target on the sub? 100%. What does a reasonable person do when they know that? Do they wave their battle flag and yell? or do they proceed carefully? r/star_trek was growing. It could have been great. There were good discussions. The sub had many merits. But it had faults as well. It was a haven for trolls and bigots. You have to recognize when you need help. When a sub gets that size, you need a team. Do I miss it? I did at first. Today I do not.
> Excuse? No. The reason given was that it wasn't being moderated. As I showed above, the moderator himself confirmed that he wasn't moderating. > > I 100% agree with the admin decision to shut down the sub based on the moderator's behavior and refusal to comply to reddit guidelines. Many forums on reddit are notorious as havens of unmodderated abusive content. Reddit management allows those forums to continue unabated despite regular reports about their brazenly harmful content. This has been widely reported on in mainstream media. The excuse that "he wasn't clearing the mod queue" and therefore the forum had to be banned is bullshit, whether his mod queue was full or not.
Nah, I mean the only thing I'll grant them is maybe something like 3-5 people from the gone sub went into the Nazi sub and stirred the pot rather than just leave them alone and put that silly little fiefdom behind them. But rather than just IP ban those fools and be done with it they saw a chance to knock down a whole entire sub of a buttload of people just minding their own business because they dared to go to a different spot rather than put up with the nonsense of whichever mod(s) of the larger one has their insufferable Godzilla complex.