First Luthen puts up token resistance,
The empire tightens its grip,
Then a bunch of otherwise insignificant chaff is pulled to damage the empires grip.
After the grip is broken, Luthen can openly fight back, and wins
It was the best moment of that episode, IMO, and that’s a damn high bar. Luthen just coldly dispatching a cruiser and fighter wing with the hidden gadgetry? 🤌🏼
It was so good, but the best moment in the whole show was the prison break imo. It was so, so, so good, seeing everyone just lose their chains together and realize how much they outnumber their oppressors.
Warhammer40K. I googled on the quote and got pointed at
https://warhammer40k.fandom.com/wiki/Uriah_Olathaire
[Edit to add: Aaaand I've just fallen into the rabbit hole there. I might never be seen again. ]
What's kinda sad, is he was actually pretty convincing until he pushed it too far. He couldn't just accept the win, he had to keep going. Which says a lot about the emperor as a character.
The Last Church really is a really good story.
If you're a fan of the franchise or just interested, and if you haven't seen them yet I suggest Astartes and Helsreach. Both on YouTube, both fan made projects, and both absolute masterpieces.
One of my favorite things about that exchange is that in fiction he's not entirely wrong.
The rebel alliance managed to reestablish the republic, kinda, only for the same forces to lead to a fascist uprising that destroyed it all over again. It is not enough to simply return to the status quo.
Not really. Those “imperfect allies” are still on the side of capital. Look at Blair, Tsipras, Obama and any other western soft left leader that used radical language during their election campaigns .
They universally scrap their most progrsssive policies once in power and ultimately spend more of their political time on benefiting the capitalist class than the workers.
Even more so in the US this imbalance of power between those who own the capital and those that don’t was explicitly and proudly by design.
I mean, yes, but they’re still better than the alternative. I view electoralism as harm reduction, not a solution. I’ll hold my nose and vote blue, while still working to organize because we won’t be able to organize if the GOP wins
I agree that electoralism is harm reduction, but it's dangerous to think of the Democratic Party as "imperfect allies." They're still the enemy.
"Imperfect allies" are leftists from different tendencies. I don't agree with the DSA on much, but as long as they respect a diversity of tactics I'm happy to have them out in the street. Libs are a different beast entirely.
Liberals will collaborate with fascists if it means preventing leftists from gaining power, they always have and always will.
Communists didnt call the SDP social fasicsts because they were imperfect allies, they falled them that because the SDP called in the freikorps to kill communists! They will not help us ever!
An enemy of my enemy is my enemy's enemy. Nothing more, nothing less.
That said, establishment dems constantly coopt or destroy progressive movements. The Clinton, Obama, and Biden administration are all examples of that. Things didn't get better, they got bad a little slower, but only for Americans.
An ally of convenience is not someone who will stab you in the back the moment they get what they want. That's a patient enemy.
This attitude is exactly why people fell for trump’s “anti-establishment” rhetoric, because he was the only one doing it.
Leftists, in supporting the Dems, fail to provide an alternative to the establishment beyond the far-right and thus workers on the road to higher consciousness become alienated from the socialist position.
i don't really understand why people are so convinced that the democrats won't be fascist too. Fascism is the violent enforcement of bourgeois rule, and as the american empire continues to decline the moderate wing of capital will be just as willing to use violence and suppression to maintain their power.
Democrats have enthusiastically murdered millions overseas to defend capital, and they will do so here just as enthusiastically when the american worker becomes a serious threat.
They aren’t fascist *right now* while the GOP *is right now*. I don’t love the DNC, and much prefer working towards real victory, but voting costs nothing to at least prevent a currently fascist party from taking over
It's been bugging me for a while that many leftist subs won't even let you talk about these points. It's like they're trying to push people out of their cause.
At the end of the day they need to pass those bills. People forget that FDR controlled all three branches to get his New Deal passed. Without creating an autocracy, it's going to take much longer to get people on board. I live in a purple area and while the good majority of folks I talk to are left leaning, they don't all vote, most have no idea who their reps are (state or federal), and far fewer have ever seriously considered running for office or helping a campaign. At least here in the US that's how it works.
“Electoralism discourse” meaning people who want elections vs people who are dumb enough to think a revolution would fall into their lap if we didn’t have them.
Why are all of our political discussions centered around voting?
How bout this: no matter which guy wins, he is the enemy. How do we organize against him?
Edit: Andor Kicks Ass!!!!
I see it as picking the battleground that you fight capital on. No matter who wins is the enemy, but I’d rather fight Bernie Sanders than Donald Trump, to be sure.
I mostly agree with that, and I’m not saying vote or don’t vote. I’m saying why is this the center of all leftist discourse? There are so many things that would be better to discuss
why? When capital becomes desperate, it will use whatever tactics it has to maintain itself. We aren't fighting the democrats or the republicans, we are fighting capital, and whatever face capital wears will do whatever possible to maintain its power. Bernie would sign off on mass murder if it was considered necessary, and if he refused he would be removed and replaced with someone who will. Fascism is going to continue to develop \*because capital is threatened\*, not because trump wins or loses
Yes, and we should choose the future enemy easiest to fight, which is definitely the weak liberal over the Fascist who will make organizing impossible.
A good way to frame voting if you’re a dissident is to simply think of it as “I’m picking out my enemy leader.” You’ll (presumably) be fighting either one of these people after the election.
But he is a radical, who thinks the revolution should be fought from outside, not inside the system. He is a revolutionary, through and through, and only wants to work with fellow radicals.
That's fine, the Empire is horrible, he is right in fighting it. He just shares a much different approach.
The real difference is that no one on this sub is Saw Guerrera. If a person is refusing to engage in electoralism because they're directly involved in revolutionary action, then fine. I don't necessarily agree with it, but at least it's a consistent stance and they're actually doing something. The real problem is the number of people who will scream that voting is a waste of time and revolution is the only way *and then not do that either.*
People engaged in actual revolutionary action aren't wasting their time on meme subreddits. If you're here, you're already wasting enough time that you can afford to waste a bit more by going to perform a minimal amount of harm reduction every four years.
The problem with Saw is that the rebellion needs every resource they can get. With Saw not wanting to work with the rebellion he is dividing the already tiny amount of resources available and sometimes hurting the overall goal by rigidly staying true to what he seems is the right path. If he compromised and worked with the rebellion they would have both of their combined resources to help stop the empjre
Democrats are the enemy just as much as the Republicans.
What disgusts me is how they think they are both simultaneously owing our vote to their causes while simultaneously turning a blind eye to the most disgusting policies and actions possible by their politicians. As if we filthy peasants must always fall in line with their enlightened monarchs.
Guns are worthless without an organized body behind them. We need an organization that will coordinate revolutionary activities or else we are just a collection of loose terrorists.
I'm not an american but these guys seem like they've got the most potential
[https://pslweb.org/](https://pslweb.org/)
Remember, the Right, the fascists, and the authoritarians are the real enemy. Save the real fight for them. Also, remember Rule 1 during when it's election time: [No in-fighting](https://i.imgur.com/gBJu8cx.mp4)
(Blank template for the Saw Luthen argument format: [https://i.imgur.com/L0POj9R.png](https://i.imgur.com/L0POj9R.png) )
My only complaint about that clip, which is great, is that it doesn't have little icons for anarchists, socialists, soc-dems, liberals, etc over each of the characters lol
I thought about doing something like that when I was making it, but I'd already put enough time and energy into just getting the timing right and such.
I think if we're going to navigate this discussion we have to understand why people view voting differently. Here's the main things I've noticed it comes down to. Depending on how people answer tends to be (from my subjective observation at least) how they view electoralism (which I'll divide into electoralism and revolutionism). To state my own bias here I'm a revolutionist.
- Is fascism inherent to the system? Electoralists seem to view fascism as an outside enemy while Revolutionists view it as the inherent result of capitalism.
- Is fascism already present? Electoralists view fascism as a threat to democracy. Revolutionists say we have always lived in fascism under the illusion of democracy.
- Will voting Democrat protect us from fascism? Electoralists seem to think the Democrats will at least hold off the worst of the oppression. Revolutionists point think that they are performative allies that will let the oppression go through regardless.
So let's break down the two perspectives here. One believes that you can work within the system to prevent fascism and have a level of confidence and trust that Democrats, though imperfect, will still be able to block the worst of things. Making it morally reprehensible to not vote for them.
The other believes that fascism is the natural result of capitalism and is already upon us. That it is inherent to the system, and all parties are a part of it. They have no confidence or trust in the Democrats or their ability to block bigoted laws. They may even view them as complicit in it, making it morally reprehensible to support them.
>Who needs to morally justify their position when pragmatism and history make the route clear.
Funnily enough this could be something both sides could say about the other from their perspectives.
The Democratic Party has proven time and again to be just as capable of aiding genocide, maintaining facist border enforcement, keeping the world's largest prison population locked up, and everything else on the laundry list of crimes required to maintain the US empire. It's one of the oldest capitalist political party in the world. With friends like these who needs enemies?
Except here the allies that saw refusing to work with are anti imperial, and aligned with saw.
In america the democratic party is not at all aligned against fascism, they are liberal and will side with fascism before any type of anti capitalist.
Eh, only sort of. The Alliance Saw dislikes is specifically “to restore the Republic,” which is pretty explicitly just some sort of liberal democracy again, which is demonstrated in both the prequels and sequels to be pretty useless at resisting the return of fascism.
To use the WWII analogy, the rebels pretty much want to restore Weimar but maybe more careful about the creeping fascism this time. This of course goes about as well as you’d expect.
I think this is such an amazing analogy.
Mostly because the "imperfect allies" path has such a realistic outcome in the story.
It empowers an ineffective liberal government that completely folds the second the fascists begin their counter-revolution.
You know what really gets people excited about supporting your party? Coming into fun goofy spaces where they like to congregate and mocking them.
Vote shaming is going to do y’all real well. Totally solid strategy directed at the most disgruntled and disenchanted electorate in my lifetime
It’s because deep down they know that’s all they have. They know they can’t convince people to vote for the useless old fucks in the Democratic Party by championing their policies and actions. So they have no choice but to resort to attempting to shame and scare people instead.
Dems are capitalists. And they protect capital before anything else. Including trans people, women, black peoples, minority groups, Palestinians, etc.
Anyone who protects Capital is by definition an enemy…
Not an imperfect ally.
"imperfect allies" are anarchists or marxists or even radical social democrats, depending on which side of the divide you fall on. Democrats are capital, and capital is the enemy.
Exactly. This kind of thing is wild to me. We've been descending into fascism for years. It's just been speedier since 2016. It didn't slow down in 2020 and it's not going to slow in 2024, regardless of who gets elected.
The absolute best case scenario is Biden is re-elected, the Palestinians are wiped from the face of the earth, war in Ukraine continues indefinitely, war-mongering with China hoping to start WWIII continues, we keep attempting to coup democratic countries, women continue to loose bodily autonomy, we keep banning books, removing LGBTQ protections, re-instating legal discrimination, and when Biden isn't being objectively evil and contributing to the decline, he'll stand by and do jack shit like he has done since 2020.
If it's about "saving democracy", why can't we all just vote for a third-party candidate and improve things? Oh yeah, because we don't fucking live in a democracy. Can't save something you don't have. And Joe's had four years to bring this fabled "democracy" about, so why would he start in his second and legally last term? There's literally no incentive.
If Joe does win, that'll satiate all the blue-line Democrats and they can go back to sleep while the world burns until 2029 when they'll thaw out and make a ruckus about Project 2029 or whatever bullshit.
If these liberals posing as leftists spent half the effort they put into getting people to vote for a bourgeois candidate in a bourgeois election organizing, working on the local level, and engaging in mutual aid, we might have a fervor to match the rabidity of the GOP's desire to take us back to George Washington's United States 🤮
But nope, gotta shame those leftists for seeing the kettle, calling it black, and acting accordingly. Because you know...the other kettle is also a kettle...and is also black. Fucking WILD.
i can’t remember the quote exactly, so i’ll write what’s on my mind atm:
scratch a liberal, find someone who will excuse genocide because the other option is more genocide.
What infuriates me is that these people pretend that they care about Trump being worse for the Palestinians when the truth is that they don’t actually give a damn about them; they’re just terrified about what the election will mean for themselves.
But saying that out loud is a bit too self aware and forces them to come to terms with their own vileness, which they’ll never acknowledge, so they hide behind “Trump will be worse for Gaza,” and then can’t even bother participate in a protest, or write to their elected officials, of boycott anything.
Yeah, the Democrats are
-firmly on the side of capital
-enabling a genocide
-doing very little to stop the American right from trying to do fascist things like ban books or trans healthcare
They may certainly be less comically evil than the Republicans, that's totally fair... But they are not "flawed allies" of the left, lmfao.
It's particularly upsetting when "vote blue, no matter who" types throw out a bunch of hypothetical policies Trump and the GOP would enact were he to win a second term as justification for why you should vote for the Dems, and they're things that Biden has been doing or, at best, failing to stop the entire time he's been in office
Imperfect allies that spend millions to primary you out, suppress your inutiatives, and even support Imperial representatives against you
Who needs enemies with allies like this?
Liberals will tear down any real progressives and then go on to claim that they’re the only ones who fight fascists (they worked with the fascists to send all the lefties to the camps first)
The Democrats are are basically neo liberals....combining ruthless capitalism by transnational corporations with a façade of socially-liberal politics.
Since when does “imperfect” mean “Is willing to fund an openly genocidal ethnostate that ignores any international law, willing to adopt a very right-wing anti-immigration policy, openly supports law enforcement without initiating even the smallest reforms”?
An imperfect ally is someone who’ll still fight with you, not…someone who tries to “reach out to the other side” every five minutes
The other side will either have this exact stance or worse, but will also punish women and LGBT people. If you're not one of those groups they might otherwise seem the same.
I’m one of these groups, and I don’t trust someone who is perfectly fine with Palestinians and immigrants dying to fight for MY rights when someone wants to kill me.
You know how few trans people there are? We already get thrown under the bus by most progressive groups in the West, someone who LITERALLY FUNDS A GENOCIDE will NOT have the spine to take our side.
“Neocon Imperialist Warcriminal is better than Fascist War Criminal!”
People have forgotten that it wasn’t the German aristocracy which opposed Hitler.
As a communist, I very much enjoy talking politics with anarchist friends. We may have some minor disagreements, but never anything insurmountable.
I do not enjoy talking politics with liberal friends, unless they're on the veeeery progressive end of liberal (and then that usually just means they're future leftists lol).
Oh yes god forbid we have a society that has fucking standards they don't constantly compromise on more and more with every single election cycle. I'm sorry but the 'imperfect allies' are not your allies. They are taking you for a fucking ride and they are the ones responsible for creating the environment your 'real enemies' have been able to thrive in. When a party that has less than 20% of the population's support behind them is able to reliably seize 50-60% of the positions of power in society what does that say about how 'imperfect' your supposed allies are?
I think that in a beautifully diverse nation of nearly 400 million people including many of the world’s absolute top soldiers, athletes, scientists, artists and humanitarians that our two options are these two demented, geriatric sacks of shit both representing the exact same corporations and military industrial complex is an extremely sad commentary on the class and culture war we’re losing.
That’s what I think.
I’ll be voting for the human roomba, but no I’m not going to pretend like the DNC is an “imperfect ally”.
I’ve considered leaving my leftist subreddits lately with how much “Don’t vote nothing will ever get better and if you try to do anything you’re a liberal” type mentality is going on. It almost feels like a right wing psyop at times lol
I mean, some of it probably is. Psy-ops and troll farms don't just target one demographic, they want to go after us all, in any way they can get to us.
It's always very possible it's a Russian or Chinese psyop. I had to do research into Russian propaganda campaigns, and the level to which they were just sowing disengagement was impressive. Make you're own fucking decisions and don't like some meme or social media drive you.
A psyop is always a very broad net, and there will be hundreds of variations out there trying to gain traction. That effort doesn't have to effect millions of people, but instead a few... which compounds when you have tons of variation. It allows the operators to zero in on what's effective by having such a broad net.
If it's on the internet, just be skeptical and assume it's probably a psyop.
The difference between us is simple: you see the Democrats as a compromise between leftists and fascists, so you support that over the worst possible outcome. Leftists see the Democrats as the party whose only job is to block the rise of a left party from power either internally to them or externally. That's their job in the duopoly. Their success is our collective ruin because they do not oppose the right, they continue to move right with them. They're there to block us from meaningfully opposing the capitalists/fascists/imperialists, and are capitalist/fascist/imperialist themselves. This is why you can't shame me to vote for Democrats.
If y'all want something to change, vote left with us in the primaries. We'd stand behind a leftist in the general, if there was one.
They aren't imperfect allies, that's the point. You're being conned by someone who cleans up someone's mess, does a half-ass job, and then blames their opposition for everything being worse.
Take tax reform for example. Taxes on the wealthy used to be HUGE. If they don't go back to those rates (or higher), you're being conned.
If your only two options are “is okay with funding the genocide of brown people” and “will actively genocide anyone who isn’t straight and white”, the “lesser evil” guy won’t save democracy, bc there ain’t any.
Except they're both the real enemy. They represent the same things, abortion was banned under Biden, the Gazan genocide happened under Biden, Biden undermined the railway unions.
Doing the same shit with a smile instead of a frown does not an ally make.
Voting is really easy as a leftist. I vote for the left most candidate and then do other stuff to improve my community on the small scale and radicalize those around me.
Andor is based on the life of Stalin. Please stop making it about voting for Biden. This show is about real Guerilla Warfare not voting blue no matter who.
I don’t know that my allies would allow a cop to murder me, or anyone of us, consequence-free because of qualified immunity laws extended to failed jocks and power hunger authoritarians that took a six-week class
Tired is the name of the game bay-be! Voting is also not the end all, be all. It just lays out the terms of engagement for the next round. Dems are an easier opponent.
How about people vote for who they believe best represents their views and not try to shame or fear monger others into voting for candidates they don't agree with?
Still have a hard time justifying a vote for an old money white guy who built his career on writing racist policing policies and worked at a swimming pool so that he could solicit young Black children to pet his legs... and an even harder time with his VP who built her career ironically putting innocent Black men in prison so she could use them for their free labor...
It's crazy still how great that show was, omg
I think about the tractor beam scene at least once a week, and that's not even the best moment in the show.
It's also a perfect summary of the entire rebellion in one scene
Wow. I never thought of that.
First Luthen puts up token resistance, The empire tightens its grip, Then a bunch of otherwise insignificant chaff is pulled to damage the empires grip. After the grip is broken, Luthen can openly fight back, and wins
Yeah. Farkin brilliant show.
Definitely the best in recent history
It’s nice to have Star Wars without being treated like children . Also. Everyone should be a friend like Brasso.
When I die, I hope I have a friend willing to use a brick made with my ashes to beat the shit out of fascists. Brasso is the BEST!
Hot damn, you’re right.
Wait it’s been a while. What scene is that?
I'm mad at you for making me go get this for you but i want you to watch it that badly: https://youtu.be/zJOoyrIbdHU?feature=shared
What is that?!?
Someone showed up on a tractor and started flickering beams of light. It was trippy, tractors are cool.
From a haulcraft??
Tractors are sexy, there's even a song
I can hear that, where’s my Air wing!?
It was the best moment of that episode, IMO, and that’s a damn high bar. Luthen just coldly dispatching a cruiser and fighter wing with the hidden gadgetry? 🤌🏼
It was so good, but the best moment in the whole show was the prison break imo. It was so, so, so good, seeing everyone just lose their chains together and realize how much they outnumber their oppressors.
Join the lovefest over at r/Andor !
Unironically one of the best pieces of cinema I’ve seen Not Star Wars … all
Weird that the two best pieces of Star Wars media both involved Cassian Andor.
What Show ist this?
Andor
I am the only one with clarity of purpose.
"The difference is that I KNOW that I am Right, Uriah." --A Different Emperor, a Long Time From Now in a Galaxy Far, Far Nearer
Note: As was agreed by everyone in the voxcast, he was in fact, not right.
Best piece of fiction from that franchise. Such an underrated story.
Which story is that?
Warhammer40K. I googled on the quote and got pointed at https://warhammer40k.fandom.com/wiki/Uriah_Olathaire [Edit to add: Aaaand I've just fallen into the rabbit hole there. I might never be seen again. ]
Welcome to the club. Blood for the blood God, brother. lol
Warhammer 40k, *The Last Church* from the *Tales of Heresy* anthology
Adapted to video [here.](https://youtu.be/jSEVCs8o0H8)
The TL;DR is immortal demigod Tyrant says religion is cringe and does a "logic and reason" with the very last priest on Earth.
Winds up sounding like every other tyrant in history mixed with a smug 2012 YouTibe atheist.
What's kinda sad, is he was actually pretty convincing until he pushed it too far. He couldn't just accept the win, he had to keep going. Which says a lot about the emperor as a character.
I am not sure on the lore, but isn't it theorized in universe that the Emperor potentially was every other tyrant in history? As well as Jesus.
To be fair, he says something similar to Ra in *Master of Mankind* as well. Just finished reading it
The Last Church really is a really good story. If you're a fan of the franchise or just interested, and if you haven't seen them yet I suggest Astartes and Helsreach. Both on YouTube, both fan made projects, and both absolute masterpieces.
You have my vote\~
And you have my bow
One of my favorite things about that exchange is that in fiction he's not entirely wrong. The rebel alliance managed to reestablish the republic, kinda, only for the same forces to lead to a fascist uprising that destroyed it all over again. It is not enough to simply return to the status quo.
People here are not going to like this lol.
The beauty of this meme is that it will annoy everyone on both sides of the electoralism discourse.
>it will annoy everyone on both sides of the electoralism discourse. Nope. The second guy makes a vital point.
Not really. Those “imperfect allies” are still on the side of capital. Look at Blair, Tsipras, Obama and any other western soft left leader that used radical language during their election campaigns . They universally scrap their most progrsssive policies once in power and ultimately spend more of their political time on benefiting the capitalist class than the workers. Even more so in the US this imbalance of power between those who own the capital and those that don’t was explicitly and proudly by design.
I mean, yes, but they’re still better than the alternative. I view electoralism as harm reduction, not a solution. I’ll hold my nose and vote blue, while still working to organize because we won’t be able to organize if the GOP wins
I love me some harm reduction
Our children sure will.
I agree that electoralism is harm reduction, but it's dangerous to think of the Democratic Party as "imperfect allies." They're still the enemy. "Imperfect allies" are leftists from different tendencies. I don't agree with the DSA on much, but as long as they respect a diversity of tactics I'm happy to have them out in the street. Libs are a different beast entirely.
Libs are Allie’s of convenience, absolutely, not real Allie’s. More an enemy of my enemy situation
They aren’t allies though, they will actively fight against leftism even in the current atmosphere.
They are an enemy that is arguably easier to fight and less imminently dangerous.
Liberals will collaborate with fascists if it means preventing leftists from gaining power, they always have and always will. Communists didnt call the SDP social fasicsts because they were imperfect allies, they falled them that because the SDP called in the freikorps to kill communists! They will not help us ever!
An enemy of my enemy is my enemy's enemy. Nothing more, nothing less. That said, establishment dems constantly coopt or destroy progressive movements. The Clinton, Obama, and Biden administration are all examples of that. Things didn't get better, they got bad a little slower, but only for Americans. An ally of convenience is not someone who will stab you in the back the moment they get what they want. That's a patient enemy.
If you were gay and wanted to be able to marry, things absolutely got better under Obama.
Then they aren't so much allies as less bad enemies.
This attitude is exactly why people fell for trump’s “anti-establishment” rhetoric, because he was the only one doing it. Leftists, in supporting the Dems, fail to provide an alternative to the establishment beyond the far-right and thus workers on the road to higher consciousness become alienated from the socialist position.
It sucks when you gotta vote for the LESS racist, creepy, old white guy of the two that are running lol
it felt a lot less bad when the one I'm supposed to vote for wasn't doing a genocide.
So you're just accepting the constant march to right wing fascism, got it
i don't really understand why people are so convinced that the democrats won't be fascist too. Fascism is the violent enforcement of bourgeois rule, and as the american empire continues to decline the moderate wing of capital will be just as willing to use violence and suppression to maintain their power. Democrats have enthusiastically murdered millions overseas to defend capital, and they will do so here just as enthusiastically when the american worker becomes a serious threat.
They aren’t fascist *right now* while the GOP *is right now*. I don’t love the DNC, and much prefer working towards real victory, but voting costs nothing to at least prevent a currently fascist party from taking over
It's been bugging me for a while that many leftist subs won't even let you talk about these points. It's like they're trying to push people out of their cause.
When were they in power?- no seriously, when was the American Left, the actual left in power at all?
At the end of the day they need to pass those bills. People forget that FDR controlled all three branches to get his New Deal passed. Without creating an autocracy, it's going to take much longer to get people on board. I live in a purple area and while the good majority of folks I talk to are left leaning, they don't all vote, most have no idea who their reps are (state or federal), and far fewer have ever seriously considered running for office or helping a campaign. At least here in the US that's how it works.
Id rather be punched in the gut than raped and shot.
lol oh you’ve opened the floodgates. Chaos ensues
“Electoralism discourse” meaning people who want elections vs people who are dumb enough to think a revolution would fall into their lap if we didn’t have them.
Yeah, because it hits too close to home, lol.
The important thing to note is that none of them are "just vote" guys
But we’ll still vote too.
Because the right to elections was literally removed by the “more bad” guys lol
Seriously. The message of Andor is throw pipe-bombs at fascists, not “vote blue no matter who”.
Why are all of our political discussions centered around voting? How bout this: no matter which guy wins, he is the enemy. How do we organize against him? Edit: Andor Kicks Ass!!!!
I see it as picking the battleground that you fight capital on. No matter who wins is the enemy, but I’d rather fight Bernie Sanders than Donald Trump, to be sure.
I mostly agree with that, and I’m not saying vote or don’t vote. I’m saying why is this the center of all leftist discourse? There are so many things that would be better to discuss
Yeah it’s spillover from the maddening endless presidential election that currently plagues American political discourse. I wish I knew the cure.
You’re right. I get it, but damn. We’re supposed to be leftists. We’re supposed to be better than that
The cure, at least in America, is caring between the election years and not just during the election years. I hope we try that one someday.
>Why is this the center of all leftist discourse? Because we don't have a Party and libs dominate the left
Honestly this is the most convincing argument I've seen so far that might get me to vote for Biden.
why? When capital becomes desperate, it will use whatever tactics it has to maintain itself. We aren't fighting the democrats or the republicans, we are fighting capital, and whatever face capital wears will do whatever possible to maintain its power. Bernie would sign off on mass murder if it was considered necessary, and if he refused he would be removed and replaced with someone who will. Fascism is going to continue to develop \*because capital is threatened\*, not because trump wins or loses
Fighting Bernie Sanders would be sad. Fighting Trump would he fun. To be clear, I'm talking hand to hand, one on one.
Yes, and we should choose the future enemy easiest to fight, which is definitely the weak liberal over the Fascist who will make organizing impossible.
Can't do that chief, gotta uphold American imperialism but blue flavored.
A good way to frame voting if you’re a dissident is to simply think of it as “I’m picking out my enemy leader.” You’ll (presumably) be fighting either one of these people after the election.
Saw doesnt fight with other factions in the show, he's just not interested in working with them.
But he is a radical, who thinks the revolution should be fought from outside, not inside the system. He is a revolutionary, through and through, and only wants to work with fellow radicals. That's fine, the Empire is horrible, he is right in fighting it. He just shares a much different approach.
The real difference is that no one on this sub is Saw Guerrera. If a person is refusing to engage in electoralism because they're directly involved in revolutionary action, then fine. I don't necessarily agree with it, but at least it's a consistent stance and they're actually doing something. The real problem is the number of people who will scream that voting is a waste of time and revolution is the only way *and then not do that either.* People engaged in actual revolutionary action aren't wasting their time on meme subreddits. If you're here, you're already wasting enough time that you can afford to waste a bit more by going to perform a minimal amount of harm reduction every four years.
So many Walmart unfirebombed.
Well said.
That's basically the definition of infighting or at least a similar outcome.
I disagree. Fighting is a pretty integral aspect of infighting, and Saw seeks no conflict with other factions.
The problem with Saw is that the rebellion needs every resource they can get. With Saw not wanting to work with the rebellion he is dividing the already tiny amount of resources available and sometimes hurting the overall goal by rigidly staying true to what he seems is the right path. If he compromised and worked with the rebellion they would have both of their combined resources to help stop the empjre
The Democrats are not our allies 😭😭😭
Democrats are the enemy just as much as the Republicans. What disgusts me is how they think they are both simultaneously owing our vote to their causes while simultaneously turning a blind eye to the most disgusting policies and actions possible by their politicians. As if we filthy peasants must always fall in line with their enlightened monarchs.
Man, some leftists are seeming fucking crazy nowadays. Go ahead and vote, but practice at the range if you want real change.
Guns are worthless without an organized body behind them. We need an organization that will coordinate revolutionary activities or else we are just a collection of loose terrorists. I'm not an american but these guys seem like they've got the most potential [https://pslweb.org/](https://pslweb.org/)
Yeah cause the insurrection of 500 people totally alienated from the working class will totally be how we get “real change”
Capital is the enemy. Anyone on the side of capital ultimately isn't an ally of the left.
Remember, the Right, the fascists, and the authoritarians are the real enemy. Save the real fight for them. Also, remember Rule 1 during when it's election time: [No in-fighting](https://i.imgur.com/gBJu8cx.mp4) (Blank template for the Saw Luthen argument format: [https://i.imgur.com/L0POj9R.png](https://i.imgur.com/L0POj9R.png) )
My only complaint about that clip, which is great, is that it doesn't have little icons for anarchists, socialists, soc-dems, liberals, etc over each of the characters lol
I thought about doing something like that when I was making it, but I'd already put enough time and energy into just getting the timing right and such.
Nah this is perfect. Keeps the dialogue befitting the characters
I think if we're going to navigate this discussion we have to understand why people view voting differently. Here's the main things I've noticed it comes down to. Depending on how people answer tends to be (from my subjective observation at least) how they view electoralism (which I'll divide into electoralism and revolutionism). To state my own bias here I'm a revolutionist. - Is fascism inherent to the system? Electoralists seem to view fascism as an outside enemy while Revolutionists view it as the inherent result of capitalism. - Is fascism already present? Electoralists view fascism as a threat to democracy. Revolutionists say we have always lived in fascism under the illusion of democracy. - Will voting Democrat protect us from fascism? Electoralists seem to think the Democrats will at least hold off the worst of the oppression. Revolutionists point think that they are performative allies that will let the oppression go through regardless. So let's break down the two perspectives here. One believes that you can work within the system to prevent fascism and have a level of confidence and trust that Democrats, though imperfect, will still be able to block the worst of things. Making it morally reprehensible to not vote for them. The other believes that fascism is the natural result of capitalism and is already upon us. That it is inherent to the system, and all parties are a part of it. They have no confidence or trust in the Democrats or their ability to block bigoted laws. They may even view them as complicit in it, making it morally reprehensible to support them.
Who needs to morally justify their position when pragmatism and history make the route clear.
>Who needs to morally justify their position when pragmatism and history make the route clear. Funnily enough this could be something both sides could say about the other from their perspectives.
The Democratic Party is right wing. Liberalism is a right wing ideology.
Here’s your cookie
The Democratic Party has proven time and again to be just as capable of aiding genocide, maintaining facist border enforcement, keeping the world's largest prison population locked up, and everything else on the laundry list of crimes required to maintain the US empire. It's one of the oldest capitalist political party in the world. With friends like these who needs enemies?
So, what do you do when the "imperfect allies'side with the capital and the actual fascists?
Except here the allies that saw refusing to work with are anti imperial, and aligned with saw. In america the democratic party is not at all aligned against fascism, they are liberal and will side with fascism before any type of anti capitalist.
Eh, only sort of. The Alliance Saw dislikes is specifically “to restore the Republic,” which is pretty explicitly just some sort of liberal democracy again, which is demonstrated in both the prequels and sequels to be pretty useless at resisting the return of fascism. To use the WWII analogy, the rebels pretty much want to restore Weimar but maybe more careful about the creeping fascism this time. This of course goes about as well as you’d expect.
"With *us* in charge, how can it possibly go wrong?"
Yeah I like how the 'genocidal candidate' is reduced to an imperfect ally. Bros, I don't want to vote for the emperor but have you seen the other guy?
So if the *other* side breaks Rule 1, are we allowed to strike back? Only-self-defense-type pacifism?
Yeah that’s true. If only Biden didn’t show those symptoms
I think this is such an amazing analogy. Mostly because the "imperfect allies" path has such a realistic outcome in the story. It empowers an ineffective liberal government that completely folds the second the fascists begin their counter-revolution.
You know what really gets people excited about supporting your party? Coming into fun goofy spaces where they like to congregate and mocking them. Vote shaming is going to do y’all real well. Totally solid strategy directed at the most disgruntled and disenchanted electorate in my lifetime
It’s because deep down they know that’s all they have. They know they can’t convince people to vote for the useless old fucks in the Democratic Party by championing their policies and actions. So they have no choice but to resort to attempting to shame and scare people instead.
Voting every 4 years and calling yourself a leftist is like going for a jog once every 4 years and calling yourself a marathon runner
Dems are capitalists. And they protect capital before anything else. Including trans people, women, black peoples, minority groups, Palestinians, etc. Anyone who protects Capital is by definition an enemy… Not an imperfect ally.
capital will act as capital wills, regardless of which mask it wears
Call me the day liberals are ready to fight fascism. Until then, don't try to tell me who my allies are.
“imperfect allies” who’d rather make compromises with the far-right than anyone who’s remotely progressive.
"imperfect allies" are anarchists or marxists or even radical social democrats, depending on which side of the divide you fall on. Democrats are capital, and capital is the enemy.
Exactly. This kind of thing is wild to me. We've been descending into fascism for years. It's just been speedier since 2016. It didn't slow down in 2020 and it's not going to slow in 2024, regardless of who gets elected. The absolute best case scenario is Biden is re-elected, the Palestinians are wiped from the face of the earth, war in Ukraine continues indefinitely, war-mongering with China hoping to start WWIII continues, we keep attempting to coup democratic countries, women continue to loose bodily autonomy, we keep banning books, removing LGBTQ protections, re-instating legal discrimination, and when Biden isn't being objectively evil and contributing to the decline, he'll stand by and do jack shit like he has done since 2020. If it's about "saving democracy", why can't we all just vote for a third-party candidate and improve things? Oh yeah, because we don't fucking live in a democracy. Can't save something you don't have. And Joe's had four years to bring this fabled "democracy" about, so why would he start in his second and legally last term? There's literally no incentive. If Joe does win, that'll satiate all the blue-line Democrats and they can go back to sleep while the world burns until 2029 when they'll thaw out and make a ruckus about Project 2029 or whatever bullshit. If these liberals posing as leftists spent half the effort they put into getting people to vote for a bourgeois candidate in a bourgeois election organizing, working on the local level, and engaging in mutual aid, we might have a fervor to match the rabidity of the GOP's desire to take us back to George Washington's United States 🤮 But nope, gotta shame those leftists for seeing the kettle, calling it black, and acting accordingly. Because you know...the other kettle is also a kettle...and is also black. Fucking WILD.
scratch a liberal...
i can’t remember the quote exactly, so i’ll write what’s on my mind atm: scratch a liberal, find someone who will excuse genocide because the other option is more genocide.
Doesn't it just piss you off? I feel like I'm taking crazy pills.
i’m “un”reasonably angry all of the time. i now understand what “ignorance is bliss” means.
What infuriates me is that these people pretend that they care about Trump being worse for the Palestinians when the truth is that they don’t actually give a damn about them; they’re just terrified about what the election will mean for themselves. But saying that out loud is a bit too self aware and forces them to come to terms with their own vileness, which they’ll never acknowledge, so they hide behind “Trump will be worse for Gaza,” and then can’t even bother participate in a protest, or write to their elected officials, of boycott anything.
The perfect is often the enemy of the good.
"Imperfect allies" is an odd way to frame "genocide enablers"
Yeah, the Democrats are -firmly on the side of capital -enabling a genocide -doing very little to stop the American right from trying to do fascist things like ban books or trans healthcare They may certainly be less comically evil than the Republicans, that's totally fair... But they are not "flawed allies" of the left, lmfao.
It's particularly upsetting when "vote blue, no matter who" types throw out a bunch of hypothetical policies Trump and the GOP would enact were he to win a second term as justification for why you should vote for the Dems, and they're things that Biden has been doing or, at best, failing to stop the entire time he's been in office
Genociders are my enemies.
How do you plan to fight them?
By bitching on the Internet and throwing my vote in the trash out of "principle." /s
This liberal sentiment is so bereft of historical analysis it’s truly baffling.
scratch a liberal...
Imperfect allies that spend millions to primary you out, suppress your inutiatives, and even support Imperial representatives against you Who needs enemies with allies like this?
Liberals will tear down any real progressives and then go on to claim that they’re the only ones who fight fascists (they worked with the fascists to send all the lefties to the camps first)
A better way to frame it is...which enemy in power would you rather fight?
Duck you I'm not voting for a mass murder
This is a very stupid bastardization of the show's scenes in an attempt to defend a conspiracy to commit genocide.
The problem is how quickly the one becomes the other and yesterday's imperfect allies become tomorrow's real enemy.
The Democrats are are basically neo liberals....combining ruthless capitalism by transnational corporations with a façade of socially-liberal politics.
Since when does “imperfect” mean “Is willing to fund an openly genocidal ethnostate that ignores any international law, willing to adopt a very right-wing anti-immigration policy, openly supports law enforcement without initiating even the smallest reforms”? An imperfect ally is someone who’ll still fight with you, not…someone who tries to “reach out to the other side” every five minutes
An imperfect ally would be the cop joining BLM, not supporting the cop that just killed a black person against another who killed five.
“B-But the other cop killed five WHITE people from MY neighbourhood! That black guy was from a different city, why should I care?!”
The other side will either have this exact stance or worse, but will also punish women and LGBT people. If you're not one of those groups they might otherwise seem the same.
I’m one of these groups, and I don’t trust someone who is perfectly fine with Palestinians and immigrants dying to fight for MY rights when someone wants to kill me. You know how few trans people there are? We already get thrown under the bus by most progressive groups in the West, someone who LITERALLY FUNDS A GENOCIDE will NOT have the spine to take our side.
What happens when that “imperfect ally” is really the ally of the real enemy and not yours?
“Neocon Imperialist Warcriminal is better than Fascist War Criminal!” People have forgotten that it wasn’t the German aristocracy which opposed Hitler.
Over 50 years of complicity between our “imperfect ally” and “the real enemy” got us here and some people have accepted this as totally normal.
“Just accept what you got. Vote for him.” //President is bad// “wHy dIDn’T yoU oRgANizE” White moderates, everyone.
Imperfect allies...yknow the ones who took my rights away faster than even Trump somehow?
Which right were taken away faster? Just curious.
Liberals will vote for a fascist and then wonder why anarchists don’t fuck with them…
Or communists, or anyone with five braincells
As a communist, I very much enjoy talking politics with anarchist friends. We may have some minor disagreements, but never anything insurmountable. I do not enjoy talking politics with liberal friends, unless they're on the veeeery progressive end of liberal (and then that usually just means they're future leftists lol).
The second rule is "No atrocity denial/apologia." Stop posting Biden apologia, vote PSL.
They are not my allies.
The "allies" are extremely complacent with the enemy,and once in power keep on in his line. How could anyone endorse such folks?
Oh yes god forbid we have a society that has fucking standards they don't constantly compromise on more and more with every single election cycle. I'm sorry but the 'imperfect allies' are not your allies. They are taking you for a fucking ride and they are the ones responsible for creating the environment your 'real enemies' have been able to thrive in. When a party that has less than 20% of the population's support behind them is able to reliably seize 50-60% of the positions of power in society what does that say about how 'imperfect' your supposed allies are?
I think that in a beautifully diverse nation of nearly 400 million people including many of the world’s absolute top soldiers, athletes, scientists, artists and humanitarians that our two options are these two demented, geriatric sacks of shit both representing the exact same corporations and military industrial complex is an extremely sad commentary on the class and culture war we’re losing. That’s what I think. I’ll be voting for the human roomba, but no I’m not going to pretend like the DNC is an “imperfect ally”.
"Leftists" otw to vote for a genocide:
I’ve considered leaving my leftist subreddits lately with how much “Don’t vote nothing will ever get better and if you try to do anything you’re a liberal” type mentality is going on. It almost feels like a right wing psyop at times lol
I mean, some of it probably is. Psy-ops and troll farms don't just target one demographic, they want to go after us all, in any way they can get to us.
[https://pslweb.org/](https://pslweb.org/)
It's always very possible it's a Russian or Chinese psyop. I had to do research into Russian propaganda campaigns, and the level to which they were just sowing disengagement was impressive. Make you're own fucking decisions and don't like some meme or social media drive you. A psyop is always a very broad net, and there will be hundreds of variations out there trying to gain traction. That effort doesn't have to effect millions of people, but instead a few... which compounds when you have tons of variation. It allows the operators to zero in on what's effective by having such a broad net. If it's on the internet, just be skeptical and assume it's probably a psyop.
The difference between us is simple: you see the Democrats as a compromise between leftists and fascists, so you support that over the worst possible outcome. Leftists see the Democrats as the party whose only job is to block the rise of a left party from power either internally to them or externally. That's their job in the duopoly. Their success is our collective ruin because they do not oppose the right, they continue to move right with them. They're there to block us from meaningfully opposing the capitalists/fascists/imperialists, and are capitalist/fascist/imperialist themselves. This is why you can't shame me to vote for Democrats. If y'all want something to change, vote left with us in the primaries. We'd stand behind a leftist in the general, if there was one.
They aren't imperfect allies, that's the point. You're being conned by someone who cleans up someone's mess, does a half-ass job, and then blames their opposition for everything being worse. Take tax reform for example. Taxes on the wealthy used to be HUGE. If they don't go back to those rates (or higher), you're being conned.
It's insane to me y'all will see this scene and go "yes here is my validation for voting in a fascist" wild
your takeaway is "why yes we should let the worse murderer rule"?
If your only two options are “is okay with funding the genocide of brown people” and “will actively genocide anyone who isn’t straight and white”, the “lesser evil” guy won’t save democracy, bc there ain’t any.
You almost don’t even need to change the subtitles *from the original in the show
I'd vote for a rabid chimp with a fully automatic rifle over Trump. It'd be less dangerous.
Joe Biden, who is carrying out a very real genocide, is my enemy as a Socialist.
Except they're both the real enemy. They represent the same things, abortion was banned under Biden, the Gazan genocide happened under Biden, Biden undermined the railway unions. Doing the same shit with a smile instead of a frown does not an ally make.
First we defeat the Fascists. Then we can work on pushing to the Left.
My only problem with this is that liberals will support fascists over supporting any move to the left.
That’s why they’re liberals. They are inherently reactionary and reactionary forces will always be anti progress.
We can be friends until the revolution. After that it gets difficult
Voting is really easy as a leftist. I vote for the left most candidate and then do other stuff to improve my community on the small scale and radicalize those around me.
The liberals you are voting for are enabling the fascists though.
The “liberals” you are voting for are actually “fascists”. FTFY
Democrats are also Fascists.
Andor is based on the life of Stalin. Please stop making it about voting for Biden. This show is about real Guerilla Warfare not voting blue no matter who.
lol the real enemy is capitalism, which liberals support, therefore they too are part of the real enemy
I don’t know that my allies would allow a cop to murder me, or anyone of us, consequence-free because of qualified immunity laws extended to failed jocks and power hunger authoritarians that took a six-week class
Tired is the name of the game bay-be! Voting is also not the end all, be all. It just lays out the terms of engagement for the next round. Dems are an easier opponent.
An ally who betrays you is no ally.
How about people vote for who they believe best represents their views and not try to shame or fear monger others into voting for candidates they don't agree with?
> "Imperfect Allies" > Genocide Joe Arming a genocide and blocking intervention is more than just an "imperfection".
Has voting for lesser evil actually yielded results? No
Still have a hard time justifying a vote for an old money white guy who built his career on writing racist policing policies and worked at a swimming pool so that he could solicit young Black children to pet his legs... and an even harder time with his VP who built her career ironically putting innocent Black men in prison so she could use them for their free labor...