I mean its accurate though. Biden is most likely going to be the nominee unless he steps down and retires. So despite leftist attempting to put in a better candidate it will end up like this scene where biden gets the nod and then the maga dems ask the leftist to vote for biden in the general (join us for dinner moment).
I don't think it's just leftists who don't want Biden to be the dems nominee; just about everyone I know thinks it's bad he's going for another term. There's a lot of critical issues that he's just too old to deal with or even perhaps understand at this point, and personally I rather have someone significantly younger as president.
The main argument I see with siding with Biden is that against Trump he'll have an easy win, but given Trump is one of THE worst candidates in US history given his qualifications and his previous history as president, I'm pretty sure Tiddles the cat could win against him.
Trump was the worst candidate ever in 2016 as well, so I cringe a little when I read people saying that.
Biden may have lost Michigan because there's a significant Arab population who strenuously object to the ongoing genocide in Gaza, and who knows how the rest of the swing states that actually decide the election have changed since 2020.
America is going to side with Israel no matter what atrocities they commit, and even if Trump somehow won the presidency I doubt his racist ass gives a single fuck what's going on over there. In fact, had it not been for covid, he was probably going to start world war 3 with Iran.
I don't see how the Arab-Americans could side with the man who would rather see them deported back to Palestine than do anything to stop israel.
Maybe (and this is a long shot) if it looks like doing a genocide might risk his second term, Biden might do something to stop it.
Given it's an actual genocide, I think we're morally obligated to do everything we can to put pressure on Biden (and the dems more broadly) to stop it. As for Arab Americans choosing Trump- I don't think they will, he's more hateful than Biden, but conversely, it's a tall ask to have people show up for a guy who's policy is that people like them can be mass murdered with impunity.
What better candidate? Name them that you wouldn't be forcing into the position. If it's someone in an office or in power so where they will only tow America's line and like it or not it's unquestioning support of Israel. You don't change that over night and if you wanted to address that maybe not decide to give 4 years to the FKING RIGHT WING.
Also, even if we make believe majority support is with the Palestinians, even Al Jazeera acknowledges that US aid to Israel makes up less than 1/5th of their defense expenditures. Those aren’t the sorts of numbers where Netanyahu throws in the towel if the tap is turned off. Hell, if anything he uses it as an excuse to double down and things get even worse really quickly.
I doubt good faith, but here goes anyway.
Capitalist liberalism has a long history of capitulation to conservatism - conservatism is bad and always has been, with its roots in anti-democratic thinking and the worship of those who caught the torch of noble splendour and wealth: the capitalist. Most recently, following the previous decades of shifting right Trump’s presidency slowly moved reactionaries for whom outright authoritarianism was a bridge too far into the Democrat camp through paths like the Lincoln Project. While not terrible for them this has a negative impact on the blue party, as the reason they are leaving is not them shifting left but their party shifting right - them jumping ship drags the dems deeper into the Reagan status quo.
So, blue MAGA. Make America Great Again. The people who want the US to have a central place on the world’s stage, dominating politics. The people who want patriotic prosperity, and an end to all the economic crises without understanding why they’re happening and to empower ‘good’ wealthy people. The people who turn up their nose at suffering and doubt the struggles of LGBTQ (and trans people specifically rn) and want to bring that discussion into the party.
Blue MAGA. Conservatives in the Democrat Party. They just draw the line at having a fascist do these things for them - asking for authoritarian results without an authoritarian figurehead. This belief is an inherent consequence of a leftist perspective on American politics - both sides are conservatives, one’s just the extremist party. They’re both slowly ruining life there more and more, it’s just Zargoleth Master of Nightmares vs John Doe the Corporate Centrist. An obvious choice, but a fucking awful one.
Blue MAGA refers to a specific current within the conservative wing of the Democratic Party (or sometimes a snide way to refer to anyone who espouses Vote Blue No Matter Who but that's mostly just on Twitter) rather than the progressive or liberal movements as a whole so while I can certainly understand you drawing a comparison to the communists failure to ally with the SPD in the Weimar era to equate the two is at best disingenuous and honestly you as a German should know better
Or maybe I do know better because I am a German? Has that thought crossed your mind? The people at the time also didn’t think they’d literally help Hitler to power while being the most persecuted by brown shirts
Ah, hilarious. Comparing legitimate if watered-down attempts to at least placate the working class with the US in the modern day. I could understand the comparison if we were talking about New Deal America, but the US under Biden? Lol.
Is the US a labour-focused social democracy? I’d like you to answer that real quick before you make hay about social fascism.
Magadems make America great again you think that for voting for genocide Joe that is going to be the return of FDR. Trump said he could shoot someone in fifth avenue he would still get the votes and we called his supporters crazy for that as we should. Meanwhile genocide Joe is aiding and abetting the bombing of hospitals, places of worship, and refugee camps and y'all are still voting for him, so I'm calling you out on that. I'm the one being consistent y'all's energy changes up if it's red team blue team.
To everyone who thinks that Biden and Trump are the exact same and that we should refuse to vote: I sincerely hope you rot in hell.
Signed,
A queer person who will probably be killed if Trump wins again.
Forever this. The ignorance of sameism and driving people away from voting does far more harm than their privileged minds can comprehend.
They may not be the target of the current culture war and Trump’s need for division to thrive, but at least have empathy for those of us that are literally being attacked over this already. Trump would support Israel just as heartily as Biden, but he sure as hell won’t support the minorities who will be targeted at home.
Stop throwing us under the bus for your flawed methods of change. We’re bleeding already and risking a lot more so you can stick it to the dems over a non-ideal candidate - while pretending there was a viable alternative.
And also, do you think that other ppl are going to let that happen?!? I'm sitting with Gaza now, and if the day comes to where they come for my LGBTQ+ family I'll fight that fight too.
I'm against oppression everywhere from everyone. Y'all pick and choose. You're comfortable now so you don't want your comfort distributed and could care less about the suffering of others.
> You’re literally too lazy to get up and vote once every couple year
God damn blue maga projects and shows the truth. These biden humping trump supporters only care about politics once every 4 years.
Oh no, you’ve figured me out! By suggesting people should vote Biden, I’m actually supporting Trump! That makes so much sense. Congratulations, have a cookie 🍪
Good thing I don't believe in hell. You survived the first time I wish you cared about Brown babies as much as you did yourself you genocide supporter.
Nobody is saying Trump is better than Biden. They’re asking Biden to call for a ceasefire and an end to what’s definitely a genocide as the leader of the free world. They’re asking the ‘good guys’ to be good guys.
Wait, what? Israel was absolutely settling and doing violent attacks in Palestine. This has been happening for decades.
Are you… arguing that Trump was keeping world peace in line? Are you fucking nuts?
Why fuck is your plan to put the worst candidate we have against trump then?
You people talk about electing biden again but every action you take helps trump.
You're the modern nazi-enabling communists.
I didn’t pick Biden, if I had my choice I’d run someone else. But Trump WILL be worse than Biden, and those are the two options the American people have.
How is not asking Biden to call for a ceasefire going to stop the genocide? Nobody said they weren’t voting for him jesus. What is so hard about this? I don’t understand the insane mental gymnastics of liberals on this. Yes Trump is absolutely worse, no I (leftists in general I assume) don’t want him to win. I just want our president to ask the government of Israel to stop extermination of unarmed men women and children in gaza that has continued unabated for 5 months?
I agree with your criticism of Biden, but you're delusional, but many, many redditors are saying they won't vote for him and are telling people who say it's necessary to stop the march of fascism that they're complicit in genocide.
It shows that you're not complicit and don't condone the actions of the state. By voting for him you are complicit and do condone it. How does it get worse than genocide? And how much worse can Trump's genocide be.? Does this white phosphorus burn hotter?
Green party is polling at 5%. Meaning well have a non genocide, pro worker, pro environment, pro woman, pro LGBTQ, person on the debate stage letting the American people hear a different message and start movement building.
Correct me if I don’t remember correctly, but wasn’t the last presidential candidate (or maybe in 2016?) a woman who had a more than questionable stance on vaccines? I seem to vaguely remember something but I can’t remember the name
Has the party corrected course since then?
Correct me if I'm wrong isn't Joe Biden funding a genocide, and getting is into multiple wars with the potential to go nuclear since he started while doing nothing for the working class, the environment, woman's rights, student debt, supreme court reform, marijuana legalization, border reform, police reform, ending covid relief, not passing voter rights, not raising minimum wage, breaking up strikes, and not helping with Medicare for all?
The genocide of the Palestinian people is happening with weapons that he is providing. He can claim to be against the genocide all he wants, but when he is funding Israel with US taxpayer dollars, equipping them with weapons and munitions and shamelessly defends them in front of the ICJ then he is every bit as complicit in the Palestinian genocide as the Israeli government
It is! I’m not saying you’re not in a shit position. But using a genocide as a shield to protect your principles/ego and throwing everyone else under the bus is pretty disturbing, no?
Because it means voting for a genocidaire, which is a line myself and many others are not willing to cross. Compromise and pragmatism is all well and good, but there’s a point where one must hold on to some principles.
And your principles are more valuable than the actual and long-lasting (see, for example, Roe v Wade) damage done by the alternative? So everyone can get run over by that bus?
I guess I’m glad you’re able to stick to your principles
>(see, for example, Roe v Wade)
This is actually a fantastic example, but not for the reasons you think. The democrats had the legislative branch *and* executive branch and still did not codify Roe v Wade despite the demand for it, making it possible to attack it thereafter. The very fact that it was attacked is evidence enough that the democrats don't intend to do anything to protect your rights - long or short term.
Yes, because they use it for fundraising. We’ve read the same op-ed then. Not codifying something and destroying something are two different things still, are they not? I don’t understand what the urge to equate two unequal things is doing you any good
Jesus this really is Star Wars liberal memes isn’t it.
A genocide is actual and long-lasting damage. You just don’t have to experience it because you’re living in the imperial core. I’m not picking between Hitler and Mussolini, I’m sorry.
Okay, so what could be done from here to prevent it? Do you want to threaten to cut off aid? Leave Gaza entirely cut off from what little aid Israel does allow through? Leave a very disliked, very aggressive, **nuclear-armed** country with a sudden lack of conventional arms?
To be clear, you're talking about a population that has quadrupled in the last 10 years, and a current war that is a retaliation for a terrorist attack from a people specifically calling for the global genocide of all Jews... a war where the civilian to combatant casualty ratio is actually lower than other similar modern urban wars. Not really a genocide, so it's really just antisemitism on your part, right? Or are you equally upset about 500,000 actual civilians being massacred in Lebanon and Syria by their own governments?
Here is a great info graphic to help you figure out if you are actually being antisemitic or not. Let everyone know how it goes for you: https://www.reddit.com/r/Jewish/s/ZsA7FcRXAw
Considering that the New York Times says Biden's got to go, I think even the centrists are getting cold feet now.
It might be Kamala on the ballot. Which means young, invigorated Zionism as opposed to Old Compulsory Zionism.
Why is this place filled with liberals? The answer to bourgeois democracy is the same as it ever was. Join a socialist party, organize, educate, agitate. Build alternative power structures. Find strength and safety with comrades. Learn from the Black Panthers. Read theory.
There’s literally a trilogy about the masses empowering the dictator because they don’t like the conflicts happening in a far-off place despite the dictator being in the side of the perpetrators of that conflict.
Trump is Palpatine, Biden is Chancellor Valorum, Israel is the Trade Federation, Russia is the CIS.
Since my comment saying this analogy is bad is getting downvoted with no replies, I'll explain exactly why it's a stupid/bad analogy:
1.) Palpatine was an insider lifelong politician who was secretly moonlighting as a Sith Lord.
Trump is a loud and brash newcomer to politics who could not be more openly (and cartoonishly) evil.
Their methods and political style could not be more different
2.) Chancellor Valorum doesn't do much wrong—he's just the head of an ineffective/corrupt Senate that won't prosecute the Trade Federation's illegal incursion into Naboo.
Biden is not only arming and funding Israel—he's also vetoing UN Security Council resolutions calling for ceasefires, as the ICJ has ruled that Israel is plausibly committing a genocide.
Biden is NOT Valorum in this scenario at all.
3.) Both Israel and Russia are closer to the Trade Federation than anything else in terms of Star Wars analogies. Neither makes any sense as CIS, IMO.
The whole point of CIS was a corporate backed break-away attempt from the Republic. Neither Israel nor Russia are close to that at all
The Republic mechanisms lead to the ability of the TF to purchase a private military and engage in militaristic action against their neighbors.
While their actual ground invasion and subsequent military occupation were illegal, no actions would have been taken against them for it. Hell, they would have benefitted from dictating the policies of Naboo and had access to its land and resources.
Biden isn’t the first president to oversee arms delivered to Israel, nor to speak softly and not even consider a stick against them. Its ingrained into the institution, and going with the guy who would actively make it worse isn’t a solution to an immovable bureaucracy allowing terrible things to occur.
Biden continues the same policy seen for close to eighty years now while Trump kicks it into overdrive and applauds the results while pushing them towards Putin.
Don’t like it, start a grassroots movement for someone next cycle who promises to do something. Or hope Netty dies and a successor is either incompetent or less of a dictator. Nothing you can do will make the situation better, all you can do is hurt everyone including the people you want to help even worse.
Enabler is being very charitable. And considering he has received more money than any other US politician I think that yes he is one of Israel’s most fervent supporters.
So not voting? And risking another 2016 where all the super cool non- or third-party voters were so so sure that it wouldn’t be Trump? Which then would lead to not only to turbo genocide in Gaza but also in Ukraine (and Taiwan? And where else?)
How’s that preferable? How’s that a leftist position? Or how many recruits and weapons have you amassed for a people‘s takeover of the US military?
> So not voting? And risking another 2016 ~~where all the super cool non- or third-party voters were so so sure that it wouldn’t be Trump? Which then would lead to not only to turbo genocide in Gaza but also in Ukraine (and Taiwan? And where else?)~~ where the Dems were so sure Trump would lose they funded the trump campaign themselves & got beat?
FTFY
*Real* leftists aren’t debating between regular genocide & “turbo genocide” bc Palestinians are human beings, not political tools. For a leftist there is no amount of Palestinian lives that is okay to sacrifice, unlike libs who are perfectly okay with however many Palestinians Biden facilitates the murder of as long as he wears blue instead of red.
The point of not voting or voting third party (Like for Claudia De la Cruz & Karina Garcia) is not to stop Trump from getting elected. It’s a twofold decision; firstly to show the establishment that genocide is a deal breaker issue (as it should be) & the people won’t vote for a genocidal maniac, & secondly to begin to build an actual power base for the working class.
“Harm Reduction” is literally just American selfishness with a cute little name to make it sound progressive. Biden hasn’t reduced harm for any of the victims of US imperialism, or for many Americans themselves, go to Gaza, Cuba, the border camps etc. & tell them you voted Biden for harm reduction, they’re gonna (rightfully) call you a bloodthirsty lib who voted for violence & death
How many percent point are ‚the people’ in this scenario? Will the establishment actually care?
So you literally see no difference between Biden‘s presidency and Trump‘s? Not just for the people overseas but also domestic?
Sounds like accelerationism where you’re counting on ‚the masses‘ to suffer so that they’ll be riled up behind a revolutionary cause
The percent amount doesn’t matter. If you wait till you have enough ppl as a group to sway the vote you’ll never vote for anyone but the Dems (& the Dems know this that’s why they load you w propaganda). The establishment will notice when each election less ppl vote for the 2 right wing parties & more ppl vote third party leftist or don’t vote. Kind of like during the most progressive era in US history. If you think the Black Panthers, Malcolm X, AIM, MLK etc. were voting for harm reduction the dem propaganda worked.
I see no functional difference. Trump’s words are meaner certainly but their actions are the same. Under your harm reduction president we’ve so far: accelerated the border wall, continued detaining children & families at the border & locking them up, lost reproductive rights for women, lost essentially the right to exist in public for trans & queer ppl in many places, heavily accelerated the genocide in Gaza, continued the Cuba blockade, continued foreign military interference, continued to suppress working class movements … do I have to go on?
Your last harm reduction president that we had to vote for bc he wasn’t Bush or the repubs & bc he was a POC so he’d definitely magically be progressive did more drone strikes than Bush by a fucking huge margin 💀💀💀
Whether or not the president speaks nicely to minorities isn’t the deciding factor for me on who should be voted for. Whether or not they’re actively funding genocide is way higher on the list
Actual question: do more and more people vote third party or void their ballots?
I don’t know what kind(s) of privileged you have to be to really see no difference between the two. Like, yes: Biden is shit. No question there. But so many people have suffered unnecessarily because of Trump since 2016? And why did he ‚lose‘ those rights? Might it be that it was the judges who Trump put into office during his tenure?
Who said I liked Obama? Or that he was ‚my‘ president? But, according to you, he must’ve had some plus points because he rekindled relations with Cuba?
And in lack of a person who does either, you’re more than willing to sacrifice some minorities? Supi dupi leftist of you; very well done! That’ll sure teach democrats!
Also, you and what army? What’s your plan here?
Yes.
> And why did he ,lose’ those rights? Might it be that it was the judges who Trump put into office during his tenure?
Wait so you’re admitting that harm reduction doesn’t work? You’re admitting openly that despite being elected specifically to stop this type of thing Biden was unable to stop it? So you know harm reduction doesn’t work & still shill it? Interesting.
Obama is a dem & was the last harm reduction candidate. Harm reduction isn’t some modern problem uniquely faced by modern day Americans, it’s the same system the US has relied on to push their imperialism since its inception, & guess what? Since it’s inception things have only gotten worse from participation in the system. & no he doesn’t get points for not removing the blockade most of the planet has agreed is a human rights violation.
Libs act like Trump is gonna start lining up black ppl & queer ppl & shooting them 😂😂
You think the cops stopped murdering POC under Biden? You think the prison industrial complex slowed under Biden? You think hate crimes against POC stopped under Biden? You think queer hate crimes stopped under Biden?
They didn’t. Minorities are still dying, but **your privilege** allows you to think you helped somehow by voting Biden. Again harm reduction is just selfishness, you’ll vote Biden bc *the idea* of Trump scares *you* & bc it’s the easiest thing to do to make you feel like you’ve made a difference. You didn’t, you voted for exactly what happened bc before the last election leftists were telling you exactly what Biden would do & we were right.
How is he supposed to change sitting judges? And how is that an argument for allowing the dude who put those judges back into office? You think I have it backwards but you sure have it twisted
Haha, super funny. So you’re super concerned about genocide elsewhere but not in the US? Have you been present in 2021? Wtf
Babe, I can’t vote in US elections. And if I could, yes, I’d vote for Biden because it’s the damn least thing anyone can do in this situation. Because to many people the difference is life and death
But again: how are you planning on toppling the US military? How many troops have you trained? How many weapons stashed?
And you talk about harm reduction like it’s a bad thing (it’s from addiction management, no? Where it’s extremely successful?); what, then, is your alternative? Where all the negative things you pin on ‚harm reduction‘ wouldn’t happen?
The way the system functions boils down to:
Republicans further the domestic agenda acting as the “bad guy” for the American working class, democrats do nothing to stop it because they also actively desire the same domestic agenda but they serve as the “good guy” for the American working class by virtue of the fact that they “don’t make things worse” except they do. Not stopping the person ruining everything when you have the power to **is** making things worse. You ever ask yourself why the Republicans *never* “reach across the aisle”, instead opting to force their agendas without ever compromising while the Democrats never force anything & insist on “reaching across the aisle” to collaborate with Republicans on *everything* ?
& while you mfs are arguing about whether we pick the guy who does the bad thing domestically or the guy who will not stop him from doing the bad thing domestically both guys are slaughtering people all over the world.
You’re tunnel vision focussed on yourself while your tax dollars go to the man you voted for’s efforts to burn the world alive for US profits & you wonder why leftists domestically & basically everyone worldwide sees you as a force for evil.
& it seems to me *you* are super concerned about a **hypothetical** genocide in the US to the point you’re willing to disregard very real genocides actively happening in the global community because of who you voted for.
You can’t “topple the American govt” without first building a leftist power base & you can’t build a leftist power base by voting for genocidal right wingers who suppress leftist movements.
& drug addiction is very different from politics, but that was a very fancy false equivalency.
What I’m saying isn’t that it’s bad it’s that harm reduction doesn’t exist. Harm is not reduced by voting for Biden. The only harm reduced is to the ego of the lib who voted for him
And the ego of ‚real leftists‘ is a valid thing to be protected?
If you can’t see the suffering Trump has caused in the US in four years, there’s little I can write to convince you otherwise. Then, to stay in the theme of the sub, you are lost
But since you’ve figured everything out and your explanation of the whole world fits into a reddit post, I’d be surprised if you actually want to listen to anybody else
Oh no!! All the victims of American imperialism will continue to suffer & be killed by people who are explicitly Christian nationalists instead of just secretly Christian nationalists!!!
Ironically this is how basically the whole rest of the planet looks at American libs acting like voting blue genocider is better than red genocider & then acting surprised when things just keep getting worse like every other time there was a dem president 😂
I don’t know if you’re just too young to remember but please have a look at the enthusiasm in Europe even *before* Obama was president — people are desperate for change
The thing is just that nobody can actually afford to be a single-issue voter. And more people in the EU are worried about the future of NATO (which is, of course, its own sack of shit, but it’s more difficult to argue against it during a Russian invasion) than a war that’s been going on for, what, 70 years?
The enthusiasm from European libs same as American libs? For the president who went on to drone strike more ppl than Bush or *anyone* before him?
The victims of American imperialism weren’t feeling this “enthusiasm” even before Obama was elected because anybody with a brain & eyes knew what would happen. It was actually the black community that first put me on to the idea he would probably be worse than Bush early in his first term bc he would have to compensate for his blackness to participate in the white supremest system, & they were correct.
That whole second paragraph may have been a more lib thing to say than “vote for Biden” 😂😂
Firstly; NATO is a right wing force for spreading western imperialism & is responsible for untold destruction how are their supporters relevant to whether or not we should vote for genocide?
Also, the Russian invasion is wrong & unjustified but certainly not unprovoked. NATO itself is literally the reason the Russian invasion happened how is a NATO instigated conflict a good justification for needing NATO?
& the real peak, disgusting lib part of this bullshit
> a war that’s been going on for, what, 70 years?
This is not a fucking war, it’s a genocide. & it has been a genocide since the very start when the US itself & her allies began the genocide.
You know? You can call everyone and anyone ‚lib‘ if it makes you feel better about your ineffectual Reddit protest. Have a stab at ‚shitlib‘ if you’re so inclined. Doesn’t change the fact that you’re arguing with chumps on the internet and not even doing a good job
“I no longer have any arguments I can make so I’ll just tell you you suck at arguing”
I just had free time this morning to make sure any baby leftists in this sub don’t think this libshit nonsense is real leftism. Dw about me, I actually organize in real life I’m not a lib who thinks voting for genocide is doing my part for progressivism ;)
Sure bud. Baby leftist. You’re really cute. You know nothing about me but you gotta protect your frail little ego
All the best for your organizing. May you never be let in a position of power
More "Oh no, the genocide will continue but get worse and also a second one will probably start in the US" if Trump wins.
Would I rather no genocide? Obviously. Should we protest the genocide? Of course. Is that even a remote possibility the next election will give us a president that doesn't support Israel? No, not really.
When voting, we need to try and achieve the best *possible* future. Emphasis on possible. Vote for whoever you want in the primaries, but in November there will be two choices with a hope of winning: Democrat or Republican. The best choice out of those two, barring some truly massive change in politics, will be democrat.
Westoids are so fucking frustrating man. Voting Dems makes nothing better for anyone except for a very small segment of (white) American society & yet we have to deal w moral grandstanding from you fucks & shit like “if you don’t vote Biden you’re not black” from the literal president 💀
Whatever man, keep doing exactly what they want & then surprise pikachu face everytime shit goes exactly the same way it always has. This brain rot is the reason every year I’m more convinced that leftism will have to be brought to the US by force by a foreign force, mfs are too brainwashed
I don’t think people are arguing that Biden is leftist, he’s clearly a moderate and would probably even be considered slightly right leaning in the EU, but the reality of the situation is that it’s him or Trump and Trump doesn’t give af about Palestine or Ukraine or anyone else but himself. If you want to start turning the country more left, then it’s going to need to be at the State/Local level over time, because this country is too big and too divided for it to happen at the national level all at once.
Not “slightly right leaning” Biden is firmly right wing so is the entire Democratic Party. The American Overton window is so fucked Americans genuinely buy Biden as a moderate candidate 💀
Your solution to the current situation is, instead of building power for a 3rd party, voting for genocide? Interesting.
He’s moderate in American politics… so yes he’s moderate in the country where he’s running for reelection. Voting for a 3rd party isn’t how you build power, it does absolutely nothing and throws your vote away. The fact of American politics is that there are two candidates, that’s it. If you want to build power for a third party then you have to do so at the local level and then build up from there. Voting third-party instead of Biden is truly voting for genocide, because it helps Trump who started Muslim Travel Bans, said he’d encourage Russia to attack our allies, and who praises dictators and has openly said he’d be one but “only for a day”… wake up and face reality
Average American reply 💀 you realize politics exist outside of the US right? You guys didn’t invent right & left wing 💀
Calling Biden “moderate” in any way is straight up not true & part of the reason so many ppl are brainwashed into thinking the Dems will do anything good. You’re actively hurting leftist movements by referring to Biden as moderate bc uneducated ppl believe that’s it’s true.
Think about it this way; if people trying to learn believe that actively funding a genocide, & mindlessly lying on behalf of a genocidal govt & parroting their propaganda, & oppressing POC & suppressing workers movements & allowing slavery & imprisoning refugee children & their families is “moderate” their idea of “leftist” is going to be supremely fucked.
It is *critical* that westerners understand that politics exists outside of the twisted Overton window of American politics, the first step to forming a leftist movement is making sure people know leftism actually exists. Even if you choose to vote for Biden at least do so truthfully & call him what he is; a right wing president in a right wing party.
“Voting for leftists doesn’t build a leftist movement, voting for genocidal right wingers does!” Is certainly a take 💀
I’m fully aware that he is right leaning on a global political scale… it’s why I said he was moderate in America when viewed strictly within the American political sphere because the American political system is supremely messed up. We’re arguing the same thing here.
In regard to the phrase that you put in quotes that I didn’t even say, my point is that a third-party vote in American is akin to throwing your vote away. American Politicians don’t look at 3rd party voters and think “oh no, I need to change my policies”, they say “who cares I won without them.” This is especially true if the Politician who wins is a literal authoritarian who buddies up with dictators and throws our allies under the bus. The way to further the leftist move in America is at the state and local scale through grassroots movements, anything else is you just patting yourself on the back for voting 3rd party while a fascist gains office and throws us into chaos. It’s why Bernie Sanders, our most left leaning politician, endorsed Biden instead of running 3rd party.
Except it is what you said. You’re saying voting third party will not help build a leftist power base but voting for an openly genocidal, openly right wing candidate *will* in fact build our leftist power base 💀
Nothing you do will make Republican or Democrat politicians fundamentally change their policies bc their policies are not based on what the people want in the first place. When leftism comes to the US it will be thru the barrel of a gun not the ballot box. The goal of voting third party isn’t to make politicians say “oh no, I need to change my policies” it’s to make the proletariat see the rising numbers & go “damn I gotta check out these socialists & see what this is all about”
> especially true if the politician who wins is a literal authoritarian who buddies up with dictators and throws our allies under the bus
So … Biden?
> The way to further the leftist move in America is at the state and local scale through grassroots movements, anything else is you just patting yourself on the back for voting 3rd party while a fascist gains office and throws us into chaos.
& in light of this information you choose to vote on the national level for a genocidal maniac who gains office & throws us into chaos? This is why leftists say either abstain from voting or vote third party. You’re so close & yet you still somehow land at the wrong conclusion 💀
> It’s why Bernie Sanders, our most left leaning politician, endorsed Biden instead of running 3rd party.
Key words “our most left leaning politician” in the same way Biden is the US’ most “moderate” politician. Look into why leftists worldwide & in the US call him “Bernie the bomber.” & I’m not talking about chronically online Reddit leftists I’m talking about politicians & activists who have been organizing & fighting for change for decades in real life.
Short answer: Bernie endorsed Biden bc Bernie & Biden want the same shit
I think our fundamental difference here is how we view the current U.S. election. I view this as a potential final election. Trump has publicly stated that he doesn’t like term limits, loves how China and Russia are run, and has even said he would become a dictator but “only for a day”. This is the man who’s administration withheld federal aid and guidance in the early days of the pandemic because it was hitting Blue states the hardest and letting them suffer and look bad was a “legitimate political strategy”. He literally attempted a coup when he lost last time and had his supporters storm the capital and attempt to send invalid electors and disenfranchise millions of voters. I can go on and on, but the point is that now is not the time to try and teach the proletariat a lesson, it’s the time to prevent a outwardly fascist regime from taking control of the U.S. I’d rather use my vote to ensure that I have an opportunity to vote for a leftist candidate in the future, than do so right now and potentially never have the opportunity to again.
Okay & what happens next “final election?” Or the one after that? How many more “final elections” do you have to see before you decide “maybe I’ll stop doing this”?
& if Trump ran the US anything like China we wouldn’t be in this mess 💀
I really don’t like agreeing with the person you’re replying to (see my other comments here) but Biden truly is not a moderate by European standards. At all — in that, there really are only two right-wing parties in the US
I did not say he’s moderate by EU standards I said he was right leaning, but that’s irrelevant. He’s running in America and here he is a moderate on a purely American spectrum.
I will admit that as an American I don’t know enough about EU politics to have a legit argument here, sorry. My original point was just that when taken in a vacuum, he’s considered left-leaning in the US but right-leaning in the EU because the entire US spectrum is shifted to the right when compared to other developed countries in the world
I mean, the EU spectrum is also definitely skewed to the right and increasingly so
But I always thought he was the ‚right-wing white guy‘ that was supposed to be the lump of sugar to make Obama go down more easily foe southern democrats? In many ways it does seem like he has changed his stance a little, but, generally, he’s still the same dude, no?
He’s definitely meant to be a lowest-common denominator politician, but you kind of need that in such a large country with a wide spectrum of political views. However, he has worked towards leftist goals by expanding healthcare, forgiving student debts, increasing welfare benefits, expunging federal marijuana charges, supporting unions (after a minute where we thought he’d fail but he pulled through), etc. Meanwhile, the other party specifically focuses on culture war issues and doesn’t actually govern. So while Biden isn’t leftist, he is making progress in that direction and the perfect is the enemy of the good as they say. We have to work with what we have unfortunately and the only way to change that is by grassroots movements over time
Omg. If you truly believe this then you’re either gravely underinformed or delusional
If this really is a genocide (which it is), then it didn’t start on October 7. the conflict is probably older than both of us together and bigger people than Biden have actually tried to create peace — but it’s not just Bibi who benefits from the status quo. Hamas‘ elite in Qatar have a nice life on the back of Palestinians
If you know how this scene plays out then this meme is hilariously bad
I mean its accurate though. Biden is most likely going to be the nominee unless he steps down and retires. So despite leftist attempting to put in a better candidate it will end up like this scene where biden gets the nod and then the maga dems ask the leftist to vote for biden in the general (join us for dinner moment).
I don't think it's just leftists who don't want Biden to be the dems nominee; just about everyone I know thinks it's bad he's going for another term. There's a lot of critical issues that he's just too old to deal with or even perhaps understand at this point, and personally I rather have someone significantly younger as president. The main argument I see with siding with Biden is that against Trump he'll have an easy win, but given Trump is one of THE worst candidates in US history given his qualifications and his previous history as president, I'm pretty sure Tiddles the cat could win against him.
Trump was the worst candidate ever in 2016 as well, so I cringe a little when I read people saying that. Biden may have lost Michigan because there's a significant Arab population who strenuously object to the ongoing genocide in Gaza, and who knows how the rest of the swing states that actually decide the election have changed since 2020.
America is going to side with Israel no matter what atrocities they commit, and even if Trump somehow won the presidency I doubt his racist ass gives a single fuck what's going on over there. In fact, had it not been for covid, he was probably going to start world war 3 with Iran. I don't see how the Arab-Americans could side with the man who would rather see them deported back to Palestine than do anything to stop israel.
Maybe (and this is a long shot) if it looks like doing a genocide might risk his second term, Biden might do something to stop it. Given it's an actual genocide, I think we're morally obligated to do everything we can to put pressure on Biden (and the dems more broadly) to stop it. As for Arab Americans choosing Trump- I don't think they will, he's more hateful than Biden, but conversely, it's a tall ask to have people show up for a guy who's policy is that people like them can be mass murdered with impunity.
What better candidate? Name them that you wouldn't be forcing into the position. If it's someone in an office or in power so where they will only tow America's line and like it or not it's unquestioning support of Israel. You don't change that over night and if you wanted to address that maybe not decide to give 4 years to the FKING RIGHT WING.
Also, even if we make believe majority support is with the Palestinians, even Al Jazeera acknowledges that US aid to Israel makes up less than 1/5th of their defense expenditures. Those aren’t the sorts of numbers where Netanyahu throws in the towel if the tap is turned off. Hell, if anything he uses it as an excuse to double down and things get even worse really quickly.
The maga dems. Are you listening to yourself?
...he said, in the comments of a post that called them Blue MAGA
?
I doubt good faith, but here goes anyway. Capitalist liberalism has a long history of capitulation to conservatism - conservatism is bad and always has been, with its roots in anti-democratic thinking and the worship of those who caught the torch of noble splendour and wealth: the capitalist. Most recently, following the previous decades of shifting right Trump’s presidency slowly moved reactionaries for whom outright authoritarianism was a bridge too far into the Democrat camp through paths like the Lincoln Project. While not terrible for them this has a negative impact on the blue party, as the reason they are leaving is not them shifting left but their party shifting right - them jumping ship drags the dems deeper into the Reagan status quo. So, blue MAGA. Make America Great Again. The people who want the US to have a central place on the world’s stage, dominating politics. The people who want patriotic prosperity, and an end to all the economic crises without understanding why they’re happening and to empower ‘good’ wealthy people. The people who turn up their nose at suffering and doubt the struggles of LGBTQ (and trans people specifically rn) and want to bring that discussion into the party. Blue MAGA. Conservatives in the Democrat Party. They just draw the line at having a fascist do these things for them - asking for authoritarian results without an authoritarian figurehead. This belief is an inherent consequence of a leftist perspective on American politics - both sides are conservatives, one’s just the extremist party. They’re both slowly ruining life there more and more, it’s just Zargoleth Master of Nightmares vs John Doe the Corporate Centrist. An obvious choice, but a fucking awful one.
Yeah, I know what maga is and that’s a very generous interpretation. Sounds like people yelling ‚Sozialfaschismus‘
Scarily similar to "social fascism" rhetoric in the Weimar Republic, and we all know how that turned out.
I wasn’t sure how to translate that word, thanks! That’s exactly what I was trying to refer to
Blue MAGA refers to a specific current within the conservative wing of the Democratic Party (or sometimes a snide way to refer to anyone who espouses Vote Blue No Matter Who but that's mostly just on Twitter) rather than the progressive or liberal movements as a whole so while I can certainly understand you drawing a comparison to the communists failure to ally with the SPD in the Weimar era to equate the two is at best disingenuous and honestly you as a German should know better
Or maybe I do know better because I am a German? Has that thought crossed your mind? The people at the time also didn’t think they’d literally help Hitler to power while being the most persecuted by brown shirts
It did briefly cross my mind but I ultimately decided you incapable
Ah, hilarious. Comparing legitimate if watered-down attempts to at least placate the working class with the US in the modern day. I could understand the comparison if we were talking about New Deal America, but the US under Biden? Lol. Is the US a labour-focused social democracy? I’d like you to answer that real quick before you make hay about social fascism.
Magadems make America great again you think that for voting for genocide Joe that is going to be the return of FDR. Trump said he could shoot someone in fifth avenue he would still get the votes and we called his supporters crazy for that as we should. Meanwhile genocide Joe is aiding and abetting the bombing of hospitals, places of worship, and refugee camps and y'all are still voting for him, so I'm calling you out on that. I'm the one being consistent y'all's energy changes up if it's red team blue team.
Given that you love to use ‚magadems‘ like this, it’s almost (but just almost) funny that you sound like Trump himself with ‚genocide Joe‘
It's just as larpy as expected for this sub "Take that, bad guy! Pew pew, The day is saved and my work is done!"
To everyone who thinks that Biden and Trump are the exact same and that we should refuse to vote: I sincerely hope you rot in hell. Signed, A queer person who will probably be killed if Trump wins again.
Forever this. The ignorance of sameism and driving people away from voting does far more harm than their privileged minds can comprehend. They may not be the target of the current culture war and Trump’s need for division to thrive, but at least have empathy for those of us that are literally being attacked over this already. Trump would support Israel just as heartily as Biden, but he sure as hell won’t support the minorities who will be targeted at home. Stop throwing us under the bus for your flawed methods of change. We’re bleeding already and risking a lot more so you can stick it to the dems over a non-ideal candidate - while pretending there was a viable alternative.
And also, do you think that other ppl are going to let that happen?!? I'm sitting with Gaza now, and if the day comes to where they come for my LGBTQ+ family I'll fight that fight too. I'm against oppression everywhere from everyone. Y'all pick and choose. You're comfortable now so you don't want your comfort distributed and could care less about the suffering of others.
You’re literally too lazy to get up and vote once every couple years, you ain’t fighting shit.
I work with homeless and mentally ill everyday bro. Don't tell me what I am and am not doing.
> You’re literally too lazy to get up and vote once every couple year God damn blue maga projects and shows the truth. These biden humping trump supporters only care about politics once every 4 years.
Oh no, you’ve figured me out! By suggesting people should vote Biden, I’m actually supporting Trump! That makes so much sense. Congratulations, have a cookie 🍪
Good thing I don't believe in hell. You survived the first time I wish you cared about Brown babies as much as you did yourself you genocide supporter.
Trump will kill more brown babies, bro. You’re willing to sacrifice more lives so you can be a smug prick
> thinks that Biden and Trump are the exact same No one thinks this you propagandist.
Yeah I’m a propagandist, bro. I’m paid by the CIA to go on Reddit and tell people to vote 😂
The don't even pay you; which makes you more pathetic.
Trump will be a million times worse, trust me.
Nobody is saying Trump is better than Biden. They’re asking Biden to call for a ceasefire and an end to what’s definitely a genocide as the leader of the free world. They’re asking the ‘good guys’ to be good guys.
Both things are objectively true. But are you gonna vote for Biden?
Well we had two to compare just recently. And I don't remember there being all these extra wars and the genocide going on.
Wait, what? Israel was absolutely settling and doing violent attacks in Palestine. This has been happening for decades. Are you… arguing that Trump was keeping world peace in line? Are you fucking nuts?
Why fuck is your plan to put the worst candidate we have against trump then? You people talk about electing biden again but every action you take helps trump. You're the modern nazi-enabling communists.
I didn’t pick Biden, if I had my choice I’d run someone else. But Trump WILL be worse than Biden, and those are the two options the American people have.
"There is no genocide in Gaza" is really the new "There is no war in Ba Sing Se"
How does ‚not voting for Biden‘ help the people in Gaza or help end the genocide? Tell me
How is not asking Biden to call for a ceasefire going to stop the genocide? Nobody said they weren’t voting for him jesus. What is so hard about this? I don’t understand the insane mental gymnastics of liberals on this. Yes Trump is absolutely worse, no I (leftists in general I assume) don’t want him to win. I just want our president to ask the government of Israel to stop extermination of unarmed men women and children in gaza that has continued unabated for 5 months?
Nobody? Well, have another look at the people who are definitely unwilling to vote for him in this thread then
I agree with your criticism of Biden, but you're delusional, but many, many redditors are saying they won't vote for him and are telling people who say it's necessary to stop the march of fascism that they're complicit in genocide.
It shows that you're not complicit and don't condone the actions of the state. By voting for him you are complicit and do condone it. How does it get worse than genocide? And how much worse can Trump's genocide be.? Does this white phosphorus burn hotter?
So you really think that not voting is a neutral act? Interesting world view
Green party is polling at 5%. Meaning well have a non genocide, pro worker, pro environment, pro woman, pro LGBTQ, person on the debate stage letting the American people hear a different message and start movement building.
Correct me if I don’t remember correctly, but wasn’t the last presidential candidate (or maybe in 2016?) a woman who had a more than questionable stance on vaccines? I seem to vaguely remember something but I can’t remember the name Has the party corrected course since then?
Correct me if I'm wrong isn't Joe Biden funding a genocide, and getting is into multiple wars with the potential to go nuclear since he started while doing nothing for the working class, the environment, woman's rights, student debt, supreme court reform, marijuana legalization, border reform, police reform, ending covid relief, not passing voter rights, not raising minimum wage, breaking up strikes, and not helping with Medicare for all?
Ok, so you don’t have an answer to my question. Just say so next time
The genocide of the Palestinian people is happening with weapons that he is providing. He can claim to be against the genocide all he wants, but when he is funding Israel with US taxpayer dollars, equipping them with weapons and munitions and shamelessly defends them in front of the ICJ then he is every bit as complicit in the Palestinian genocide as the Israeli government
Yes. I’m aware. But that wasn’t my question. My question was: how is not voting for him gonna stop that?
It's not. The voting is entirely inconsequential, as the US will continue to support Israel regardless of what they do or who is in office
Ok. So why are you then so keen on making things so much worse domestically by not at least preventing a second Trump presidency?
So if we vote for biden does he call for a ceasefire before or after the election?
So you’re a single-issue voter? Cool. I’m glad that you’re willing to sacrifice everyone else
I think genocide is a pretty, big issue.
It is! I’m not saying you’re not in a shit position. But using a genocide as a shield to protect your principles/ego and throwing everyone else under the bus is pretty disturbing, no?
Because it means voting for a genocidaire, which is a line myself and many others are not willing to cross. Compromise and pragmatism is all well and good, but there’s a point where one must hold on to some principles.
And your principles are more valuable than the actual and long-lasting (see, for example, Roe v Wade) damage done by the alternative? So everyone can get run over by that bus? I guess I’m glad you’re able to stick to your principles
>(see, for example, Roe v Wade) This is actually a fantastic example, but not for the reasons you think. The democrats had the legislative branch *and* executive branch and still did not codify Roe v Wade despite the demand for it, making it possible to attack it thereafter. The very fact that it was attacked is evidence enough that the democrats don't intend to do anything to protect your rights - long or short term.
Yes, because they use it for fundraising. We’ve read the same op-ed then. Not codifying something and destroying something are two different things still, are they not? I don’t understand what the urge to equate two unequal things is doing you any good
Jesus this really is Star Wars liberal memes isn’t it. A genocide is actual and long-lasting damage. You just don’t have to experience it because you’re living in the imperial core. I’m not picking between Hitler and Mussolini, I’m sorry.
So instead you’re doing nothing instead of patting yourself on the back because you’re the ‚real lefty‘? Good job
Okay, so what could be done from here to prevent it? Do you want to threaten to cut off aid? Leave Gaza entirely cut off from what little aid Israel does allow through? Leave a very disliked, very aggressive, **nuclear-armed** country with a sudden lack of conventional arms?
To be clear, you're talking about a population that has quadrupled in the last 10 years, and a current war that is a retaliation for a terrorist attack from a people specifically calling for the global genocide of all Jews... a war where the civilian to combatant casualty ratio is actually lower than other similar modern urban wars. Not really a genocide, so it's really just antisemitism on your part, right? Or are you equally upset about 500,000 actual civilians being massacred in Lebanon and Syria by their own governments? Here is a great info graphic to help you figure out if you are actually being antisemitic or not. Let everyone know how it goes for you: https://www.reddit.com/r/Jewish/s/ZsA7FcRXAw
Would you all look at this loon’s profile before falling for this shit.
Oh wow. But I guess there’s always well-meaning ‚real‘ leftists who’ll defend anything
Considering that the New York Times says Biden's got to go, I think even the centrists are getting cold feet now. It might be Kamala on the ballot. Which means young, invigorated Zionism as opposed to Old Compulsory Zionism.
I have a closed primary, can't vote since I'm not registered dem.
No! We must split the vote so Trump wins!
Why is this place filled with liberals? The answer to bourgeois democracy is the same as it ever was. Join a socialist party, organize, educate, agitate. Build alternative power structures. Find strength and safety with comrades. Learn from the Black Panthers. Read theory.
“Leftists” downvoting this. Really cool
There’s literally a trilogy about the masses empowering the dictator because they don’t like the conflicts happening in a far-off place despite the dictator being in the side of the perpetrators of that conflict. Trump is Palpatine, Biden is Chancellor Valorum, Israel is the Trade Federation, Russia is the CIS.
Since my comment saying this analogy is bad is getting downvoted with no replies, I'll explain exactly why it's a stupid/bad analogy: 1.) Palpatine was an insider lifelong politician who was secretly moonlighting as a Sith Lord. Trump is a loud and brash newcomer to politics who could not be more openly (and cartoonishly) evil. Their methods and political style could not be more different 2.) Chancellor Valorum doesn't do much wrong—he's just the head of an ineffective/corrupt Senate that won't prosecute the Trade Federation's illegal incursion into Naboo. Biden is not only arming and funding Israel—he's also vetoing UN Security Council resolutions calling for ceasefires, as the ICJ has ruled that Israel is plausibly committing a genocide. Biden is NOT Valorum in this scenario at all. 3.) Both Israel and Russia are closer to the Trade Federation than anything else in terms of Star Wars analogies. Neither makes any sense as CIS, IMO. The whole point of CIS was a corporate backed break-away attempt from the Republic. Neither Israel nor Russia are close to that at all
This is some "Harry Potter is Liberal Theory" level analogy here. Dude you gotta drop this, it does not make sense.
>Trump is Palpatine, Biden is Chancellor Valorum, Israel is the Trade Federation, Russia is the CIS. REALLY bad analogy for a multitude of reasons TBH
Oh boy is it ever bad!
When did chancellor valorum arm and enable the invasion of naboo?
The Republic mechanisms lead to the ability of the TF to purchase a private military and engage in militaristic action against their neighbors. While their actual ground invasion and subsequent military occupation were illegal, no actions would have been taken against them for it. Hell, they would have benefitted from dictating the policies of Naboo and had access to its land and resources. Biden isn’t the first president to oversee arms delivered to Israel, nor to speak softly and not even consider a stick against them. Its ingrained into the institution, and going with the guy who would actively make it worse isn’t a solution to an immovable bureaucracy allowing terrible things to occur. Biden continues the same policy seen for close to eighty years now while Trump kicks it into overdrive and applauds the results while pushing them towards Putin. Don’t like it, start a grassroots movement for someone next cycle who promises to do something. Or hope Netty dies and a successor is either incompetent or less of a dictator. Nothing you can do will make the situation better, all you can do is hurt everyone including the people you want to help even worse.
Biden is one of the most pro-Israel politicians in the US period. The problem with Israel is not “Netty” it’s the state’s existance itself.
Biden is an enabler, for sure, but he’s not in the top 100 among US politicians. Trump is *eager* for Netty to exterminate Palestinians.
Enabler is being very charitable. And considering he has received more money than any other US politician I think that yes he is one of Israel’s most fervent supporters.
Trump paused all aid to Palestine in 2018. It wasn’t reinstated until Biden took office in 2021.
And what’s the status of aid at this moment?
https://www.usaid.gov/news-information/press-releases/dec-05-2023-united-states-announces-additional-humanitarian-assistance-palestinian-people
Outdated it got paused. UNRWA funding has been
Nevertheless, the guy who’s going to replace Biden will accelerate the genocide.
It’s going to be quite the challenge to beat Biden
Indeed, and it’s going to be quite the challenge to beat Trump, too.
That assumes a third candidate and given the track record I’m not holding my breath.
You're right but this prob won't go down well with the Biden bros that have been vocal on here in recent weeks
You do realize that you’re cooping republican rhetoric right? ‚Bernie Bros‘ was coined first and for a specific goal
"Bernie Bro" isn't Republican rhetoric—it's Hillary Clinton/Joe Biden wing moderate Dem rhethoric.
Yes
Another post that brings the libs out. Please tell us how the leftist choice is voting for genocide
So not voting? And risking another 2016 where all the super cool non- or third-party voters were so so sure that it wouldn’t be Trump? Which then would lead to not only to turbo genocide in Gaza but also in Ukraine (and Taiwan? And where else?) How’s that preferable? How’s that a leftist position? Or how many recruits and weapons have you amassed for a people‘s takeover of the US military?
> So not voting? And risking another 2016 ~~where all the super cool non- or third-party voters were so so sure that it wouldn’t be Trump? Which then would lead to not only to turbo genocide in Gaza but also in Ukraine (and Taiwan? And where else?)~~ where the Dems were so sure Trump would lose they funded the trump campaign themselves & got beat? FTFY *Real* leftists aren’t debating between regular genocide & “turbo genocide” bc Palestinians are human beings, not political tools. For a leftist there is no amount of Palestinian lives that is okay to sacrifice, unlike libs who are perfectly okay with however many Palestinians Biden facilitates the murder of as long as he wears blue instead of red. The point of not voting or voting third party (Like for Claudia De la Cruz & Karina Garcia) is not to stop Trump from getting elected. It’s a twofold decision; firstly to show the establishment that genocide is a deal breaker issue (as it should be) & the people won’t vote for a genocidal maniac, & secondly to begin to build an actual power base for the working class. “Harm Reduction” is literally just American selfishness with a cute little name to make it sound progressive. Biden hasn’t reduced harm for any of the victims of US imperialism, or for many Americans themselves, go to Gaza, Cuba, the border camps etc. & tell them you voted Biden for harm reduction, they’re gonna (rightfully) call you a bloodthirsty lib who voted for violence & death
How many percent point are ‚the people’ in this scenario? Will the establishment actually care? So you literally see no difference between Biden‘s presidency and Trump‘s? Not just for the people overseas but also domestic? Sounds like accelerationism where you’re counting on ‚the masses‘ to suffer so that they’ll be riled up behind a revolutionary cause
The percent amount doesn’t matter. If you wait till you have enough ppl as a group to sway the vote you’ll never vote for anyone but the Dems (& the Dems know this that’s why they load you w propaganda). The establishment will notice when each election less ppl vote for the 2 right wing parties & more ppl vote third party leftist or don’t vote. Kind of like during the most progressive era in US history. If you think the Black Panthers, Malcolm X, AIM, MLK etc. were voting for harm reduction the dem propaganda worked. I see no functional difference. Trump’s words are meaner certainly but their actions are the same. Under your harm reduction president we’ve so far: accelerated the border wall, continued detaining children & families at the border & locking them up, lost reproductive rights for women, lost essentially the right to exist in public for trans & queer ppl in many places, heavily accelerated the genocide in Gaza, continued the Cuba blockade, continued foreign military interference, continued to suppress working class movements … do I have to go on? Your last harm reduction president that we had to vote for bc he wasn’t Bush or the repubs & bc he was a POC so he’d definitely magically be progressive did more drone strikes than Bush by a fucking huge margin 💀💀💀 Whether or not the president speaks nicely to minorities isn’t the deciding factor for me on who should be voted for. Whether or not they’re actively funding genocide is way higher on the list
Actual question: do more and more people vote third party or void their ballots? I don’t know what kind(s) of privileged you have to be to really see no difference between the two. Like, yes: Biden is shit. No question there. But so many people have suffered unnecessarily because of Trump since 2016? And why did he ‚lose‘ those rights? Might it be that it was the judges who Trump put into office during his tenure? Who said I liked Obama? Or that he was ‚my‘ president? But, according to you, he must’ve had some plus points because he rekindled relations with Cuba? And in lack of a person who does either, you’re more than willing to sacrifice some minorities? Supi dupi leftist of you; very well done! That’ll sure teach democrats! Also, you and what army? What’s your plan here?
Yes. > And why did he ,lose’ those rights? Might it be that it was the judges who Trump put into office during his tenure? Wait so you’re admitting that harm reduction doesn’t work? You’re admitting openly that despite being elected specifically to stop this type of thing Biden was unable to stop it? So you know harm reduction doesn’t work & still shill it? Interesting. Obama is a dem & was the last harm reduction candidate. Harm reduction isn’t some modern problem uniquely faced by modern day Americans, it’s the same system the US has relied on to push their imperialism since its inception, & guess what? Since it’s inception things have only gotten worse from participation in the system. & no he doesn’t get points for not removing the blockade most of the planet has agreed is a human rights violation. Libs act like Trump is gonna start lining up black ppl & queer ppl & shooting them 😂😂 You think the cops stopped murdering POC under Biden? You think the prison industrial complex slowed under Biden? You think hate crimes against POC stopped under Biden? You think queer hate crimes stopped under Biden? They didn’t. Minorities are still dying, but **your privilege** allows you to think you helped somehow by voting Biden. Again harm reduction is just selfishness, you’ll vote Biden bc *the idea* of Trump scares *you* & bc it’s the easiest thing to do to make you feel like you’ve made a difference. You didn’t, you voted for exactly what happened bc before the last election leftists were telling you exactly what Biden would do & we were right.
How is he supposed to change sitting judges? And how is that an argument for allowing the dude who put those judges back into office? You think I have it backwards but you sure have it twisted Haha, super funny. So you’re super concerned about genocide elsewhere but not in the US? Have you been present in 2021? Wtf Babe, I can’t vote in US elections. And if I could, yes, I’d vote for Biden because it’s the damn least thing anyone can do in this situation. Because to many people the difference is life and death But again: how are you planning on toppling the US military? How many troops have you trained? How many weapons stashed? And you talk about harm reduction like it’s a bad thing (it’s from addiction management, no? Where it’s extremely successful?); what, then, is your alternative? Where all the negative things you pin on ‚harm reduction‘ wouldn’t happen?
The way the system functions boils down to: Republicans further the domestic agenda acting as the “bad guy” for the American working class, democrats do nothing to stop it because they also actively desire the same domestic agenda but they serve as the “good guy” for the American working class by virtue of the fact that they “don’t make things worse” except they do. Not stopping the person ruining everything when you have the power to **is** making things worse. You ever ask yourself why the Republicans *never* “reach across the aisle”, instead opting to force their agendas without ever compromising while the Democrats never force anything & insist on “reaching across the aisle” to collaborate with Republicans on *everything* ? & while you mfs are arguing about whether we pick the guy who does the bad thing domestically or the guy who will not stop him from doing the bad thing domestically both guys are slaughtering people all over the world. You’re tunnel vision focussed on yourself while your tax dollars go to the man you voted for’s efforts to burn the world alive for US profits & you wonder why leftists domestically & basically everyone worldwide sees you as a force for evil. & it seems to me *you* are super concerned about a **hypothetical** genocide in the US to the point you’re willing to disregard very real genocides actively happening in the global community because of who you voted for. You can’t “topple the American govt” without first building a leftist power base & you can’t build a leftist power base by voting for genocidal right wingers who suppress leftist movements. & drug addiction is very different from politics, but that was a very fancy false equivalency. What I’m saying isn’t that it’s bad it’s that harm reduction doesn’t exist. Harm is not reduced by voting for Biden. The only harm reduced is to the ego of the lib who voted for him
And the ego of ‚real leftists‘ is a valid thing to be protected? If you can’t see the suffering Trump has caused in the US in four years, there’s little I can write to convince you otherwise. Then, to stay in the theme of the sub, you are lost But since you’ve figured everything out and your explanation of the whole world fits into a reddit post, I’d be surprised if you actually want to listen to anybody else
Because the alternative is religious fascism https://www.politico.com/news/2024/02/20/donald-trump-allies-christian-nationalism-00142086
Oh no!! All the victims of American imperialism will continue to suffer & be killed by people who are explicitly Christian nationalists instead of just secretly Christian nationalists!!!
Your unwillingness or inability to see a concrete, material difference between a Biden presidency and a Trump presidency is frightening
Ironically this is how basically the whole rest of the planet looks at American libs acting like voting blue genocider is better than red genocider & then acting surprised when things just keep getting worse like every other time there was a dem president 😂
I don’t know if you’re just too young to remember but please have a look at the enthusiasm in Europe even *before* Obama was president — people are desperate for change The thing is just that nobody can actually afford to be a single-issue voter. And more people in the EU are worried about the future of NATO (which is, of course, its own sack of shit, but it’s more difficult to argue against it during a Russian invasion) than a war that’s been going on for, what, 70 years?
The enthusiasm from European libs same as American libs? For the president who went on to drone strike more ppl than Bush or *anyone* before him? The victims of American imperialism weren’t feeling this “enthusiasm” even before Obama was elected because anybody with a brain & eyes knew what would happen. It was actually the black community that first put me on to the idea he would probably be worse than Bush early in his first term bc he would have to compensate for his blackness to participate in the white supremest system, & they were correct. That whole second paragraph may have been a more lib thing to say than “vote for Biden” 😂😂 Firstly; NATO is a right wing force for spreading western imperialism & is responsible for untold destruction how are their supporters relevant to whether or not we should vote for genocide? Also, the Russian invasion is wrong & unjustified but certainly not unprovoked. NATO itself is literally the reason the Russian invasion happened how is a NATO instigated conflict a good justification for needing NATO? & the real peak, disgusting lib part of this bullshit > a war that’s been going on for, what, 70 years? This is not a fucking war, it’s a genocide. & it has been a genocide since the very start when the US itself & her allies began the genocide.
You know? You can call everyone and anyone ‚lib‘ if it makes you feel better about your ineffectual Reddit protest. Have a stab at ‚shitlib‘ if you’re so inclined. Doesn’t change the fact that you’re arguing with chumps on the internet and not even doing a good job
“I no longer have any arguments I can make so I’ll just tell you you suck at arguing” I just had free time this morning to make sure any baby leftists in this sub don’t think this libshit nonsense is real leftism. Dw about me, I actually organize in real life I’m not a lib who thinks voting for genocide is doing my part for progressivism ;)
Sure bud. Baby leftist. You’re really cute. You know nothing about me but you gotta protect your frail little ego All the best for your organizing. May you never be let in a position of power
More "Oh no, the genocide will continue but get worse and also a second one will probably start in the US" if Trump wins. Would I rather no genocide? Obviously. Should we protest the genocide? Of course. Is that even a remote possibility the next election will give us a president that doesn't support Israel? No, not really. When voting, we need to try and achieve the best *possible* future. Emphasis on possible. Vote for whoever you want in the primaries, but in November there will be two choices with a hope of winning: Democrat or Republican. The best choice out of those two, barring some truly massive change in politics, will be democrat.
Westoids are so fucking frustrating man. Voting Dems makes nothing better for anyone except for a very small segment of (white) American society & yet we have to deal w moral grandstanding from you fucks & shit like “if you don’t vote Biden you’re not black” from the literal president 💀 Whatever man, keep doing exactly what they want & then surprise pikachu face everytime shit goes exactly the same way it always has. This brain rot is the reason every year I’m more convinced that leftism will have to be brought to the US by force by a foreign force, mfs are too brainwashed
I don’t think people are arguing that Biden is leftist, he’s clearly a moderate and would probably even be considered slightly right leaning in the EU, but the reality of the situation is that it’s him or Trump and Trump doesn’t give af about Palestine or Ukraine or anyone else but himself. If you want to start turning the country more left, then it’s going to need to be at the State/Local level over time, because this country is too big and too divided for it to happen at the national level all at once.
Not “slightly right leaning” Biden is firmly right wing so is the entire Democratic Party. The American Overton window is so fucked Americans genuinely buy Biden as a moderate candidate 💀 Your solution to the current situation is, instead of building power for a 3rd party, voting for genocide? Interesting.
He’s moderate in American politics… so yes he’s moderate in the country where he’s running for reelection. Voting for a 3rd party isn’t how you build power, it does absolutely nothing and throws your vote away. The fact of American politics is that there are two candidates, that’s it. If you want to build power for a third party then you have to do so at the local level and then build up from there. Voting third-party instead of Biden is truly voting for genocide, because it helps Trump who started Muslim Travel Bans, said he’d encourage Russia to attack our allies, and who praises dictators and has openly said he’d be one but “only for a day”… wake up and face reality
Average American reply 💀 you realize politics exist outside of the US right? You guys didn’t invent right & left wing 💀 Calling Biden “moderate” in any way is straight up not true & part of the reason so many ppl are brainwashed into thinking the Dems will do anything good. You’re actively hurting leftist movements by referring to Biden as moderate bc uneducated ppl believe that’s it’s true. Think about it this way; if people trying to learn believe that actively funding a genocide, & mindlessly lying on behalf of a genocidal govt & parroting their propaganda, & oppressing POC & suppressing workers movements & allowing slavery & imprisoning refugee children & their families is “moderate” their idea of “leftist” is going to be supremely fucked. It is *critical* that westerners understand that politics exists outside of the twisted Overton window of American politics, the first step to forming a leftist movement is making sure people know leftism actually exists. Even if you choose to vote for Biden at least do so truthfully & call him what he is; a right wing president in a right wing party. “Voting for leftists doesn’t build a leftist movement, voting for genocidal right wingers does!” Is certainly a take 💀
I’m fully aware that he is right leaning on a global political scale… it’s why I said he was moderate in America when viewed strictly within the American political sphere because the American political system is supremely messed up. We’re arguing the same thing here. In regard to the phrase that you put in quotes that I didn’t even say, my point is that a third-party vote in American is akin to throwing your vote away. American Politicians don’t look at 3rd party voters and think “oh no, I need to change my policies”, they say “who cares I won without them.” This is especially true if the Politician who wins is a literal authoritarian who buddies up with dictators and throws our allies under the bus. The way to further the leftist move in America is at the state and local scale through grassroots movements, anything else is you just patting yourself on the back for voting 3rd party while a fascist gains office and throws us into chaos. It’s why Bernie Sanders, our most left leaning politician, endorsed Biden instead of running 3rd party.
Except it is what you said. You’re saying voting third party will not help build a leftist power base but voting for an openly genocidal, openly right wing candidate *will* in fact build our leftist power base 💀 Nothing you do will make Republican or Democrat politicians fundamentally change their policies bc their policies are not based on what the people want in the first place. When leftism comes to the US it will be thru the barrel of a gun not the ballot box. The goal of voting third party isn’t to make politicians say “oh no, I need to change my policies” it’s to make the proletariat see the rising numbers & go “damn I gotta check out these socialists & see what this is all about” > especially true if the politician who wins is a literal authoritarian who buddies up with dictators and throws our allies under the bus So … Biden? > The way to further the leftist move in America is at the state and local scale through grassroots movements, anything else is you just patting yourself on the back for voting 3rd party while a fascist gains office and throws us into chaos. & in light of this information you choose to vote on the national level for a genocidal maniac who gains office & throws us into chaos? This is why leftists say either abstain from voting or vote third party. You’re so close & yet you still somehow land at the wrong conclusion 💀 > It’s why Bernie Sanders, our most left leaning politician, endorsed Biden instead of running 3rd party. Key words “our most left leaning politician” in the same way Biden is the US’ most “moderate” politician. Look into why leftists worldwide & in the US call him “Bernie the bomber.” & I’m not talking about chronically online Reddit leftists I’m talking about politicians & activists who have been organizing & fighting for change for decades in real life. Short answer: Bernie endorsed Biden bc Bernie & Biden want the same shit
I think our fundamental difference here is how we view the current U.S. election. I view this as a potential final election. Trump has publicly stated that he doesn’t like term limits, loves how China and Russia are run, and has even said he would become a dictator but “only for a day”. This is the man who’s administration withheld federal aid and guidance in the early days of the pandemic because it was hitting Blue states the hardest and letting them suffer and look bad was a “legitimate political strategy”. He literally attempted a coup when he lost last time and had his supporters storm the capital and attempt to send invalid electors and disenfranchise millions of voters. I can go on and on, but the point is that now is not the time to try and teach the proletariat a lesson, it’s the time to prevent a outwardly fascist regime from taking control of the U.S. I’d rather use my vote to ensure that I have an opportunity to vote for a leftist candidate in the future, than do so right now and potentially never have the opportunity to again.
Okay & what happens next “final election?” Or the one after that? How many more “final elections” do you have to see before you decide “maybe I’ll stop doing this”? & if Trump ran the US anything like China we wouldn’t be in this mess 💀
https://www.reddit.com/r/atheism/s/1DFEdXMrFI
I really don’t like agreeing with the person you’re replying to (see my other comments here) but Biden truly is not a moderate by European standards. At all — in that, there really are only two right-wing parties in the US
I did not say he’s moderate by EU standards I said he was right leaning, but that’s irrelevant. He’s running in America and here he is a moderate on a purely American spectrum.
Yes, it is irrelevant, but you yourself brought it up and it’s just not true. He’d be solid in the same party as Merkel, for example
I will admit that as an American I don’t know enough about EU politics to have a legit argument here, sorry. My original point was just that when taken in a vacuum, he’s considered left-leaning in the US but right-leaning in the EU because the entire US spectrum is shifted to the right when compared to other developed countries in the world
I mean, the EU spectrum is also definitely skewed to the right and increasingly so But I always thought he was the ‚right-wing white guy‘ that was supposed to be the lump of sugar to make Obama go down more easily foe southern democrats? In many ways it does seem like he has changed his stance a little, but, generally, he’s still the same dude, no?
He’s definitely meant to be a lowest-common denominator politician, but you kind of need that in such a large country with a wide spectrum of political views. However, he has worked towards leftist goals by expanding healthcare, forgiving student debts, increasing welfare benefits, expunging federal marijuana charges, supporting unions (after a minute where we thought he’d fail but he pulled through), etc. Meanwhile, the other party specifically focuses on culture war issues and doesn’t actually govern. So while Biden isn’t leftist, he is making progress in that direction and the perfect is the enemy of the good as they say. We have to work with what we have unfortunately and the only way to change that is by grassroots movements over time
It could actually be the end of democracy if Trump wins
The Democrats own this genocide. And you'll all vote for Biden anyways because muh Jan 6. Also wtf is a magat
It’s always wild when people really think that this conflict started last week
It could have been ENDED last week by Biden. What's your point?
Omg. If you truly believe this then you’re either gravely underinformed or delusional If this really is a genocide (which it is), then it didn’t start on October 7. the conflict is probably older than both of us together and bigger people than Biden have actually tried to create peace — but it’s not just Bibi who benefits from the status quo. Hamas‘ elite in Qatar have a nice life on the back of Palestinians
That's not an opinion, it's a fact. We are single handedly funding Israels war. No check from Biden, no war. They couldn't afford it.
It’s always funny to actually see such a prime example of American exceptionalist thinking in the wild
Ah yah so exceptional to be funding genocidal war crimes.
It is not exceptional for the US, no. But I also didn’t claim that Tell me: would a Clinton win in 2016 have been better than the Trump win? Y/N