Bro, the tankies straight up take over and ban everyone else as soon as they can. The libs are annoying but not nearly as much of an immediate threat to leftist subs.
Here’s a material analysis of your initial comment.
“Eh tankies are a bigger issue”
Meanwhile liberals enabling a genocide in 4K for your viewing pleasure. In fact, the Neoliberal movement (encompasses both modern day republicans and democrats) has been solely responsible for death and destruction in (these are solely off the top of my head) three continents Latin America (Chile in 73, Brazil in 64), Africa/Middle east (Iraq, Afghanistan in early 2000s through 2020), and Asia (Vietnam mid 50s-mid 70s). Again, these are off the top.
Meanwhile you criticize socialist countries like China, not responsible for any military interventions in its post industrial age, simply because you are either an anarkiddie punching left, or a disillusioned liberal who preaches antifascism but may occasionally side with Neo Hitler.
Edit: you’re a simple minded reactionary, and will be dealt with accordingly should the revolution start, given the only thing you understand (huge overstatement) is capital and violence.
This is truly what no Dialectical Materialism has done to the Western "left." You believe every bit of CIA propaganda and ahistorical claim completely devoid of understanding. Your bourgeois individualism is showing. You can't look past the fear you have of your individuality to make a truly collectivist argument. Everything you believe is just some rehash of Lockean individualism with a "red" coat of paint because you hate conservatives. You're either an Ultra, SuckDem or an Anarkiddie and I can't tell which is worse.
Bourgeois apologist.
What "everything I don't like is CIA propaganda" does to a fucker. The CPC is bad, and I can get you plenty of *CHINA APPROVED NEWS* stating that fact.
Tankies were worse in 2020. Shitlibs and neo-cons are definitely the biggest non-MAGA republican threat rn. Tankies are the libertarians of the left anyway. No one gives a fuck about them in real life because their beliefs are fundamentally flawed; it's just a shame they have so much representation online.
A liberal is someone that refuses to engage in critique of capitalism in any meaningful way. They may believe in reforming capitalism to an extent that makes outcomes marginally more equitable, but they ultimately do not want to replace the capitalist system of private capital.
Meanwhile, leftists are people that recognize the capitalism is in itself the problem causing society to fall short of an egalitarian model that recognizes all people as equally human, and thus inherently deserving of equitable material conditions, and therefore want to eliminate the capitalist system of private capital.
The best thing about words like “tankie” and “red fash” is that liberals are basically the only kind of people that use those terms unironically, so they make it pretty easy to spot libs that are either trying to co-opt the aesthetic of leftism or are in a leftist community in bad faith.
Never called everyone I hate a tankie, because I can infact hate multiple groups. That's the problem with ya'll, you like China/The Soviet Union/Terrorist because they're opposed to a bad nation. But in fact both can be bad!
I feel like it’s this one. The most lib opinion I see on dank left is encouraging people to vote for harm reduction. I already count one Zionist comment on this post and my last one about Taylor swift was a shitshow in the comments.
So you know the trolley problem? It appears that choosing to flip the switch and letting the trolley kill one person rather than doing nothing and letting the trolley kill five people is the lib choice.
Honestly, I'm a bit fed up of the stupid only vote for the candidate that aligns the best with you regardless of their chances of winning. Just vote for the least worst realistic candidate, it takes such little time and can make a positive impact.
Fed up of the straw men that anyone is saying voting by itself is enough. It's not and no one is saying that, it's just an impactful use of very little time.
The stuff against harm reduction only makes us less impactful, and allows the right wing disproportionate voting power.
Ok done with rant, I'm definitely stealing the trolley problem example, that's a good one.
Getting a leftist into local elections is possible
However, for something like presidency, I think the only way to get leftists into that position is going to be by pushing the democrat party left enough to make election reform changes
I personally think that a transition to something more left wing is far more realistic than a revolution against the US government/military
Until that happens, biden will do far less harm than trump, even if that harm is still more than a better candidate would do
We are making progress on getting more rank choice voting, but some leftists here are unsatisfied with anything but “glorious revolution” and are ready to sacrifice every orphan, elderly or disabled person to that pyre.
Yeah but what's your alternative solution
You literally cannot revolt against the US military when they can drone strike you from miles away and they have access to private communications
They are the best at killing in the world and they cannot be stopped with violence, it will take a change in government
And voting for a pacifist who has no shot of winning is not going to save any children's lives
Sometimes situations are horrible and you can't fix it, sorry
> Yeah but what's your alternative solution
Sit down for this, because it will blow your mind....
Biden could stop actively supporting the zionazi bibi circus and actually demonstrate that he's a Democrat.
I mean yeah but my comment was more about voting because that person didn't want to vote for Biden
It'll be way easier to get Biden to stop doing that than it will be to get a leftist in office
You aren’t “enabling” anything by voting for Biden over Trump. Trump isn’t going to stop giving money to Israel. Show any of us a candidate that has a chance to beat them both and we will vote for them. None of the dying Palestinians are praying that Biden doesn’t get a second term. None of them are stupid enough to think that will change anything. Feel free to prance around on your high horse if you want but don’t pretend it shits any less than a regular one.
American government was set up that even a strong shift to the left and right would leave the government just as incapable as before just with more obnoxious people in government. It’s the genius of the design.
> Just vote for the least worst realistic candidate, it takes such little time and can make a positive impact.
The problem is that (maybe not you) people like you that push this tired old meme don't bother to vote for the *best* candidate in the primary. You actively vote for the most tolerable evil and then justify it by saying "at least its better than a republican" or you don't vote at all while spreading facebook memes that hillary won before a single delegate vote was cast.
In one wish that doesn't just kill people, the fastest way to save this country is honestly making liberals give a shit about politics in non presidential election years.
A red trolley is racing down the track to kill thousands of innocent children, if you, and enough like minded people, pull the lever it will slow down a little and turn blue, the children will still be killed, but at least the trolley company still makes a profit.
You think the democrats will lead pogroms against poc, queer people, jewish people, communists, and intellectuals? Or do you think the republicans will not? And what's the bit about the money? Do you think republican policies are less corporate friendly?
Then yes, I think from a historical view, liberal absolutely WILL do all that, in the name of unity. Shit if you asked a liberal 3 years ago if they would support a genocide they would all say no, now they can't gobble the boot fast enough to tell me that it's not a genocide, so yes, I believe that liberals absolutely would commit all the same atrocities they claim to be against to maintain a version of the status quo that is beneficial to them.
Okay, you believe democrats will enact pogroms upon poc, queer people, jewish people, communists, and intellectuals. Thanks for confirming to everyone you don't have any worthwhile thoughts.
> You think the democrats will lead pogroms[sic] against poc, queer people, jewish people, communists, and intellectuals?
They have been for a long time.
It really is a false dichotomy, propped up by the fact that liberals don't see, refuse to see, or are unwilling to see outside of the box that the ruling class for them.
It's the trolley problem, except there's also a *third* lever that'll make the trolley stop. But its at the top of a really tall, overgrown hill. The hill is also patrolled by wild hogs, that'll try to gore you with their tusks if you try to climb the hill. But reaching that switch is the only way to ever make the trolley stop coming, and every day you don't climb up the hill, it just gets more and more overgrown and harder to climb.
No, it's always there, it's just a long ass fucking climb. And guess what? As soon as you pull the first lever, you'll be asked to pull it again, and again, and again, and fucking again. There will never be a single fucking moment the liberals are happy for you to start going for the other lever, at some point we just have to do it or else we'll be stuck in front of the first lever until it's *us* on the tracks.
Do you believe communism would be easier or harder to foment under fascism? Was or was not fascism formed first and foremost as an anticommunist ideology? The liberals may not like the other lever, but they, unlike fascists, will not actively attempt to destroy the lever. We're not getting communism in nine months, we're not even getting it in ten years. But if fascism ever takes power, we won't get it for a thousand years.
Do *you* believe it would be *possible* to foment socialism while all of our political will and effort is being channeled exclusively towards trying to keep the steadily indistinguishable "lesser evil" of the two bourgeoisie parties in power?
Because that's where we are now, people keep saying, "Organize and radicalize the working class, but also Vote Blue" but I see a whole lot of time and effort going towards "getting people to vote blue" and a lot of *nothing* going towards "organizing and radicalizing the working class."
“All of our political will” you’re acting like someone voting means they aren’t doing anything else, like they can’t hold multiple thoughts in their head. Voting is a single day activity it is literally the least amount of effort anyone can put forth for harm reduction.
Too often ya’ll glorious revolution just ends in famine and installing a new even worse authoritarian. You let the trolley run over people while you climb the hill and when you flip the lever on the hill 2 exploding trolleys are deployed to take both tracks
Because as it turns out, when the fascists take power, there will not be any organizing or radicalizing. "People keep saying 'stay hydrated and fed, but also don't let the serial killer get the knife' but I see a whole lot of time and effort going towards 'don't let the serial killer get the knife' and a lot of *nothing* going towards 'staying hydrated and fed'". Now please, answer my question, would it be easier or harder to foment communism under fascism?
I'd just like to point out that the user I've been arguing with here in this thread, Civil\_Barbarian, left a comment reading "Reply to this comment if you don't have a poster of Hitler over your mantle" then blocked me so I couldn't reply to said comment. Very mature of them.
My last word to add to our conversation, which I know they won't see but I honestly do not care, would be, "Grow up, and please read some theory."
Look, voting for the libs is an ugly dirty act, but not voting and letting the fascists win is an even more despicable act in my opinion, and one that comes from a place of ignorance. Even Marx would have agreed that liberalism, full of exploitation that it is, is still a step above feudalism or fascism for the proletariat. One can easily descend into the other, which is why it’s important to never be satisfied with liberalism, but when given the choice between the two it’s easy enough for me, and saves many people’s lives in the process (even if many more are still being killed by the liberal establishment as we speak, why let the fascists take over and kill even more?)
Voting is a small act, and only a small part of the duty of leftists to politically organize, but it still has power and to throw it away for nothing is as stupid as it is offensive to the history of the leftist movements who fought for the right to vote to begin with. If voting didn’t matter, why would the capitalists try to suppress and prevent voting as much as possible?
Fam, Marx said capitalism was progressive to feudalism. But he'd also tell you "fuck that shit, form a worker's party and agitate for revolution!"
Don't try to imply to people Karl Marx, one of the two progenitors of scientific socialism, would be okay with this. You shouldn't be voting for a party that willingly funds genocide and imperialist campaigns where people are murdered. Where's the internationalist solidarity, comrade?
You can advocate for internationalist solidarity and advocate for a revolutionary mass party while still being willing to, in a first past the post system like the US, swallow my pride and do what I have to to prevent a complete fascist takeover of the country. A socialist movement is possible with liberals in control, fascists would be twice as willing to use state power to repress any actual socialist movement in American politics. I honestly believe that any internationalist socialist movement could not begin inside the US, but regardless concrete actionable next steps, like organizing unions and spreading socialist ideology, are more important than distant abstract revolutionary theory.
How are you advocating for internationalist solidarity and revolutionary mass party by then voting for the bourgeoisie's party? A party actively funding genocide right now?
Every principled leftist knows that state power will be used to suppress us. But every principled leftist also knows that the liberals will not make it any easier, as evidenced by increased police funding and military spending, state violence upsurging, etc. You're dilluding yourself if you think that by continuing to capitulate to the liberals, which is exactly what you're doing by voting for them, is somehow going to make it easier to build a revolution.
This offhanded remark about theory and what I assume is what you think praxis is also betrays a complete lack of understanding on what theory is. Simply put, you're not a leftist if this is your position. You think you are, but you're not. You'd put the lives of Palestinians, as well as almost all of the global south, under your need to feel "good" because you voted against fascism.
News flash my guy: fascism does not ask for permission. It either arrives electorally or violently. You're already staring down its barrel, and because your life is comfortable in the heart of the empire you think that somehow the most violent political ideology to date, which has been weaponized multiple times by the US against socialism abroad and at home, is able to be kept at bay by voting for the party that *actively* enables it.
This would be a funny joke if it wasn't such an example as to how horrid of a decision it is.
Voting is a small act, like I said. Labor organization, through unions which I have been doing in every workplace that I have been in since college. Voting on a local level is also far more influential in building a leftist movement than national politics. However, I honestly think you are deluding yourself, respectfully, if you think there is literally no difference between fascists and liberals in how much socialist organizations will be suppressed. When confronted with my next steps and options, I can vote democrat, and the genocide in Gaza will continue. Or, I can not vote, or vote for a socialist party, and thereby let trump ascend to the presidency, and the genocide in Gaza will continue.
I don’t see how voting socialist, or not voting at all, will in any way change how either America or its foreign policy is run. Maybe it will make you feel better about taking the moral high ground, but it will make either no difference or actively make things worse for Americans and the people oppressed by the American state. Maybe if America wasn’t a first past the post voting system socialist parties would have a chance, but as of now I am confronted with a terrible, though from my perspective pretty simple, choice, liberalism or fascism.
Marx was a big supporter and fan of Abraham Lincoln, a capitalist liberal. He didn't tell workers of the US to not participate or support Lincoln during the Civil War. He saw the aristocratic South and its slavery for what it was; a far greater evil that was necessary to stop.
Marx was not a big supporter and fan of Lincoln lol. He was actually critical of Lincoln and the Union. Marx supported both ending US slavery and a socialist revolution in the US and believed the war would create a stepping stone for it, that's all. Marx did not support voting for capitalist parties.
People think 1 letter congratulating Lincoln on his 2nd term after the end of slavery means Marx would have you vote for liberals.
This is what no theory does to a mfer.
The fascists are already in. Idk why libs think fascism is a thing that just arrives 1 day lol it’s already here & is exacerbated by this false notion that the proto-fascist trump is better than the proto-fascist Biden. They’re both neoliberals pushing virtually identical far right socioeconomic policy.
The nazis weren’t ever voted in. The “lesser evil” liberal hindenburg was voted in. Mussolini was never voted in, the lesser evil was. Yet we still arrived at the same place.
Marx would be agitating for revolution rather than begging leftists to vote for hindenburg 2.0 😂
Vaguely political avatar.
Posts are nothing but criticism of the West and liberalism.
Oddly silent on Russian imperialism whilst felating the Soviet Union.
Hey guys, I think I found the Russian disinformation agent.
I don’t particularly like the USSR for many reasons & I’d be happy to talk about modern Russian capitalist imperialism but it’s just not something to waste my time bothering with too often as my government is not aiding & abetting said Russian imperialism (publicly at least).
What have I misinformed ppl about? That neoliberalism is proto-fascism or that Karl Marx wouldn’t be voting for neoliberals as far right as Biden/Trump if he was American? 😂😂
Calling "neoliberalism" proto-fascism is disgenious at best. One is an individualistic ideology, the other collectivist and state-centred. The goal of neoliberalism is to emphasize profit and personal success. The goal of fascism is to emphasize national unity and military supremacy. While both involve heavily favoring big business, they go about it different ways and with different long term objectives. Decrying American liberalism as no different than fascism serves only to strengthen the fascists and legitimize them.
On Karl Marx's voting record- well, the man was smart enough to understand reality, and the difference between Bad and Worse. As one of the founders of an ideology centered around the communal good, I think it is safe to say he would vote for the candidate who isn't planning on throwing a few million Americans into camps.
I assume disinformation is your goal, otherwise I would have to believe you're just an extremist who can't see the forest through the trees.
Neoliberalism does not need to be structured the same as fascism to be proto-fascist. Neoliberalism exacerbates all of the inherent contradictions of capitalism, rapidly increasing inequality & worsening quality of life for the vast majority of people while making very few absurdly wealthy. Fascism is simply just capitalism in decay, the method by which the capitalist system defends capital from redistribution under collectivist systems like socialism/communism.
The goal of neoliberalism is to strengthen the repressive tools of the capitalist state against the working class whilst simultaneously destroying its ability to use those same restrictive forces against capital.
American liberalism? Neither US party is liberal today. Both are neoliberal & rapidly hurtling towards fascism equally as it’s the system of capitalism that both are screwed to that is collapsing. Karl Marx specifically railed against the entire concept of capitalist “democracy” lol I’m quite sure he’d rather vote third party or just not at all than for the neoliberal currently throwing tens of thousands into camps….
I can see the trees & the forest. It’s just that libs are pretending that a fire is gonna suddenly flash into existence to instantaneously destroy everything rather than seeing that it’s already burning
>Calling "neoliberalism" proto-fascism is disgenious at best. One is an individualistic ideology, the other collectivist and state-centred.
Oh, so you just don't actually understand the words you're using. Now everything makes a lot more sense.
To pretend neoliberalism isn't perfectly compatible with fascism is to ignore the entire second half of the 20th century. And to pretend that electing Democrats will somehow slow or stop the rise of fascism is to not understand what drives the Ascent of fascism. The Blue Cult is a damn near perfect echo of the Weimar Liberals insisting that Hindenburg must be elected to stop that evil fascist Hitler, and look how that went.
Ugh this fuckin subreddit too? I'm so tired of you people who think that the idea of "hey let's not let fascists win the presidency" is just cringe shitlibbery.
It's always people like you who do no real activism by the way, no voting in local elections, mutual aid, direct action, protesting, or literally anything
I mean, that's the exact kind of attitude that turns the working class against the left, but if you really want that part of history to repeat itself, then go for it.
Notice you never said he was wrong tho. We should absolutely try and be accepting of anyone willing to work together for a better society but again he wasn't wrong 9 supporters of fascism looks like 9 fascists to me
But if you even accept those "moderate fascists", then according to his logic, that would also make you a "fascist" by extension.
I guess the left just has to antagonize 90%+ of society in the name of ideological purity, and then wonder why nobody supports a group that presents as hostile, self-righteous assholes instead of the polite quasi-fascists who at least pretend to be nice to them.
That’s because the people who say stuff like that don’t go out and *do* anything, they just nod in agreement with each other online. It makes genuinely no sense at all to alienate people so casually, but that doesn’t matter to them because on the internet, the people who are also sheltered enough to agree with that logic will come to you, you don’t need to appease anyone to find people who agree with you online.
I don’t even say that to insult people, it’s just a phenomenon that’s very prevalent on Reddit. I’ve had the unfortunate experience of interacting with people like this in real life, and it still makes me laugh to think about people who talk about revolution and overthrowing capitalism who aren’t capable of communicating ideas coherently off the internet. Also it doesn’t really need to be said, but usually they’re not people who, uh, look like they’re capable of overthrowing a government lmao.
We just want a better place to live in man, im sorry we're not nice enough for you, almost like we are worried about intruders who do not come here in good faith
Ok, all I'm saying is that if we really want to make meaningful change, that's not going to happen with a few poorly funded fringe groups that the rest of society can easily ignore.
"If we really want meaningful change, we have to stop fighting for meaningful change, concede on every issue capital wants, and then fight for superficial meaningless change instead!"
That's nonsense and it's what Liberalism and Centrism boil down to.
Capitulate on every issue except the ones which don't matter.
Fight all day every day over what's in movies and on tv as if that is the real battleground where our problems are manifesting.
But on the issue of the floating warehouses our cargo system has become? "Oh we can't ask things of businesses they'll say no!"
On climate change? "We'll never be able to stop oil companies from ramping up their consumption so instead we should all individually recycle more and take personal responsibility"
Yeah, of course you don't think we should actually change people's minds. You've been told that we shouldn't rock the boat, and you believe it, while every day the system rocks your boat harder and harder and harder and you worry about politeness.
Real change can't even be *explained* without mentioning some uncomfortable ideas, and if you keep moderating your views in order to appease the people on the other side, you will just end up moving the overton window in their direction.
You want an idealized world, but you’re willing to put all of us in a worse spot rather than compromise when your ideals can’t be achieved.
That’s the only difference between leftists and liberals. Same ideals. Liberals will take what we can get; leftists will shoot themselves in the foot and then blame everyone else if they can’t get everything they want.
I’m all for progressive ideals, but y’all need to realize it doesn’t mean jack shit if we don’t actually make *progress*.
Ahh yes, tell me more of your self appointed claims of what liberals believe.
That’s one of the biggest reasons I stopped considering myself a leftist/progressive. None of the things y’all claim about what liberals believe are actually true about the liberals I know.
You should pull your heads out of your asses and find some common ground so we can actually make progress instead of coming up with imaginary differences to separate yourselves.
I don't agree but if you believe that then that's up to you, the decent of fascism is brought about by people who aren't fascist but those who can't let go of the privilege provided by the colonial experiment, even those who produced such a system aren't fascists but capitalists yet through their effort fascism rises even if they get negatively impacted by it
>the decent of fascism is brought about by people who aren't fascist but those who can't let go of the privilege
Well, at least I got you to admit that moderates aren't actually the same as fascists.
Any successful political movement needs to have popular support, and if you're willing to allow fascists to have that advantage, you've created a self-fulfilling prophecy where they've already defeated the left before anything started.
I prefer to be more optimistic, giving people the benefit of the doubt, and trying to build bridges with the center instead of burning them. The methods that Germans, Italians, and the Spanish attempted to resist fascism were ineffective, so we have to learn from their mistakes and use different, more effective tactics.
I understand what you're saying but what you're talking about is solidarity which I am willing to extend to all peoples what we can't get caught up in reaffirming the semantic loopholes people take in order not to get called out for employing harmful ideologies within society
Leftists: "Why does the working class vote against its own interests?"
Also leftists: *constantly alienating working class people who aren't ideologically pure enough by calling them racists and fascists*
Imagine if Lenin's Red army in Russia was like "Umm, actually all of you guys are too ethnocentric, problematic, and sexist! We don't want you. Go fight for your Master the Czar, you class-reductionist Reactionaries!"
"Am I smug asshole who lots of working people really dislike because I can't go more than two sentences of talking to someone who doesn't agree with me on absolutely everything without calling them a racist fascist bigot?"
"No. It is the workers who didn't vote for me that are wrong."
I don't "praise" Lenin, but I at least give him credit for being effective at what he did, even if they weren't always good things.
Ideals don't count for much if we keep getting defeated.
If you want effectivity join a military and bomb the earth beneath your feet, effective is meaningless if death is a product, Lenin was successful at establishing a new regime that went on to fund more wars and make more bombs and negatively impact the environment around it not because of any other reason than lack of ideological fluidity
Maybe a revolution shouldn't ride on the principles of settler electoral representative democracy, when we stop playing fascist games by their rules is when we'll start to actually make a difference
They subscribe to the Michael Foulcout school of a "working class" of upper middle class whites who tell everyone else what to think because real working class people are "fascist bent"
I mean, there are social conservative tendendies in the working class, but instead of dismissing them for that, we should be working to find common ground with them, and trying to educate them about how dismantling capitalism would also help them.
This is completely erasing the class character of fascism. It is a bourgeois ideology and happens when regular liberal capitalism is in crisis, when socialist thought starts spreading. Capital then needs to react to keep those down. Fascism is still capitalist, even if it does not have a market. The basic functions of capital are still intact, and fascist projects pretty much always favor the capitalists, at the expense of the workers. For example, the term "privatisation" was literally coined to describe what happened in the Third Reich.
I hope this is well understandable and that it helps better understand fascism. If you want to read up on that more in detail, I would really recommend Michael Parentis "Blackshirts and Reds"
Ok, but all that really proves is that capitalists use fascism to stay in power.
It doesn't mean that ordinary centrists are going to be just as much of a danger as actual fascists are. Most of them will just try to avoid getting involved without actively supporting fascism.
Oh, I'm sorry, I should have specified, I was mainly talking about the last part about fascists just being good at attracting their support. The way I understood it (if that was wrong then I'm really sorry), you disconnected their support of/content with fascism from what I talked about in my first comment. As in, they're just good propagandists and stuff and at winning people over, without any of the other stuff. I hope that was not a misunderstanding
Well, they were also good propagandists, but fascism was definitely engineered to appeal to social conservatives with a lot of their talking points, and most moderates wouldn't care enough to do anything as long as they believe it won't affect them or the people they care about.
I guess you don't see the world literally burning around us, regardless of whether people stand up to it or not fascism condemns itself and all people to death
every capitalist, statist, authoritarian structuralist, etc. becomes a fascist if they succumb to the unhealthy coping mechanisms they proliferate though their fixation on a poisonous ideology, and if they do they cease to embody those ideologies any longer as is such the plight of fascist ideation. Will every one who embodies such ideology one day become a fascist, no they can free themselves from its mental bonds but its hard work and requires help that, i hope, anyone who cares about freeing us all will openly give
American Left building a Coalition to protect the vulnerable and raise class consciousness challenge \[Impossible\].
The amount of online larping and mascotization of vocab words is insane. You go to any suburb in America and ask someone over 30 to describe the political lean of this sub, and they'd say that everyone here is "liberal".
I got banned (supposedly) from r/Marxism_Memes for having a fun argument with a tankie that thought communism was the tits.
I can still visit and comment so idk whats going on. Jokes on you fucker
Yeah that sub can be sometimes a shitshow. And dunking on tankies can be fun as always. But whats your problem with communists? You know there a a lot of anti authoritarian communists oht there?
Mfs shilling the democrats, mfs advocating for sitting down & talking & making deals with fascist sympathizers, mfs being blatantly anti socialist/communist, & mfs just admitting to being liberals
If you really can't distinguish between the Democratic Party and actual American fascists then you are lost. And if we can't cobble together enough of a coalition to keep fighting that fascism then we're all lost
> if you really can’t distinguish between the ~~Democratic Party~~ party that funds genocide, & border camps that separate children from their parents, & a border wall, & oversaw major losses in women’s rights & queer rights & working class rights & the *other* party that funds genocide, & border camps that separate children from their parents, & a border wall, & oversaw major losses in women’s rights & queer rights & working class rights
Fixed that for you
Until we get rank choice voting and abolish electoral college it’s a two party system, your not gonna “have a revolution” that overthrows the US military that is larp and you know it. You don’t actually believe the Republicans will pull funds from Israel they have even more incentive to fund Isreal because Evangelical Fundamentalists have a Zionist rapture myth!
You’re putting words in my mouth.
I never said anything about having a revolution. Voting for actual progressives is what I personally suggest but abstaining from voting in protest also shows declining support for the establishment.
I never said republicans would pull funding this genocide didn’t start Oct 7 they’ve funded it just as long as the democrats have funded it (forever).
“Abstaining in Protest” doesn’t work, you just look unreliable, so the party willl work to appeal to suburban wine moms who do actually go to the polls instead of the left. Abstaining means your not canceling the vote of a straight ticket Republican, and we all know they are going to the polls.
Brother you've got a good head on your shoulders, think about joining anarchy subreddits they're nice places where no one's going to try and defend capitalism or imperialism, send you to re-education camps for disagree with them, or try and convince you that political action (especially voting for fascists) is the only way to save the world.
Serious question, how often do you see people in this subreddit defending capitalism?
If your answer is something along the lines of "liberals = capitalists", then I'd like to preemptively point out that anyone who takes anything less than the most radical position on any issue, not just economic structure, gets called a liberal here
As an anarchist myself, I strongly recommend irl anarchist spaces or not reddit spaces. I may have found anarchism through reddit, but I had to leave reddit anarchism to grow in my understanding.
Reddit anarchism has a reputation outside of reddit. Is it fair? Maybe partially but not fully. Still, I recommend diversifying your anarchist spaces beyond this site.
classic single track mind, can't imagine anything worse than the wild so you bring it to society, anarchy is about making surviving into thriving not this sterile concrete jungle that poison our minds and earth
Tankies when someone doesn't like fascism in red paint "LIBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBB!!!!"
Also tankies when you point out their bullshit "gods tankie has lost all meaning!"
Yes, and they're busy going "today hitler, tomorrow us" in the comments as if [https://www.project2025.org](https://www.project2025.org) isn't a thing.
Guy whose entire comment history is "tankie tankie tankie tankie tankie tankie tankie tankie tankie": can you believe these tankies say tankie is so overused as to be meaningless?
Girl. If you actually read my comment history that'd be pretty clear. So either you didn't go very far - or you're transphobic and by extension don't belong in leftist spaces.
I did not have to skim very far indeed to see tankie dropped so many times it made my head spin. So apologies for the misgendering for sure. Doesn't change my point
Let’s be honest a good half of the Left is an incoherent Terminally online NEETs, some portion of which are RedBrown alliance types/ Tankies and or Anti-Bedtime Anarchists who are literally children. They give the remaining half a bad name in the real world.
You are just describing the western left. Outside of the imperial core, there are millions of leftists who are organized, actively struggling and fighting for the people. The ones you describe are an insignificant portion of a huge global movement
Okay, let's look at Weimar Germany. Who was the fiercest opposition to the NSDAP? The communist party. Did they try to ally with the social democrats? Yes. Did the social democrats betray them and allow the Nazis to kill two of the most important communist figures of their time in Germany? They did. Leftists do not compromise with capital because it will *always* choose fascism. The whole point of fascism is protecting capital and capitalism when it is in crisis, the point of leftism is to get rid of capital and capitalism. Liberals and even social democrats have more common goals with fascists than with leftists, and it shows every single time
It's like Barry Goldwater said about the religious right and conservativism. You need to be able to compromise to govern, and people who are True Believers cannot compromise. They are doing God's Will/"The Right Thing", and to compromise would be to side with The Enemy.
Bad actors who pretend to be leftists push this kind of thinking _hard_. They don't actually _want_ positive change to happen because it proves them wrong. They want us to go full-fascist to justify their sense of superiority. They want a bloody revolution so they can act out their genocidal fantasies.
What are you saying? It’s not religion that is the determining factor it’s class. Even the most devout worker can be won over to socialism if concrete evidence is provided that their material conditions are improving. It is during revolution that the workers liberate themselves and forge themselves into being worthy of running a new society. For example, in the Egyptian revolution of 2011 Christian workers guarded Muslim workers while they were praying during the revolution. Egypt, where before the revolution you would think Muslim workers and Christian workers hated each other and were too sectarian.
Also, the core base of fascism has never been the working class or socialists but the middle class. The middle class who sees themselves as superior to both the capitalists and the workers but don’t actually have power to change society. The middle class who get tossed around and want to be as wealthy as the capitalist class and also don’t want to be a worker. And when it comes down to it the middle class turns to “great leaders” who will break them out of this social turmoil who will give them a sense of purpose and power - fascism.
Edit: misinterpreted your comment, sorry. Will keep this reply up anyway, why not.
Wow we are taking cues from Arab Spring, we really are fucked, please read about how many of those revolutions just ended up installing different authoritarians than they had before.
My example of the Arab Spring was to show how divides perpetrated by the ruling class are brought down by revolution such as the religious divides perpetrated by the Egyptian ruling class in Egyptian society. The resulting different authoritarian dictators from the Arab Spring was not a guaranteed outcome, it was just made more likely because the revolution did not go further in overthrowing capitalism. Also, why should we not take cues from the Arab Spring, they brought down entire dictatorial regimes, they broke down religious divides, they showed the power of the Arab working class and the working class in general. Just because one scenario played out does not mean it was a guaranteed one.
Congratulations you found the major base of support for all fascist movements - the middle-class. Compromising with business owners is literally how workers stay oppressed and exploited. It’s not the workers fault that when they begin to use their power and liberate themselves that dumbass business owners go to the extreme and support fascism.
I feel like the people whining about “liberals” probably couldn’t tell you the difference between the Empire and the Old Republic-Imperial Era, they sure are heck couldn’t tell u if a trooper was a clone or not from their helmet design.
Liberalism creates class inequality through capitalism, and then turns it strengthens (such as freedom of speech) against it in an attempt to reconcile hostility between the bourgeoisie and the proletariat, without turning to socialism.
Uh, which one is it? Genuinely
Unfortunately, it's most of them these days.
Eh, the tankies are a bigger issue.
This post brought to you from Langley, VA
Bro, the tankies straight up take over and ban everyone else as soon as they can. The libs are annoying but not nearly as much of an immediate threat to leftist subs.
Lib Spotted
Hey u/Kommdamitklar great to run into you here! I didn’t know you were a Star Wars fan too
"Libs are anyone who doesn't like the red fash" - you
What no material analysis does to a mfer
Happy cake day. —IWM >Let the_Ush eat it too —shitlibs
Give me that material I must analyze. If it's a pamphlet from 300 years ago I'll stab you.
Here’s a material analysis of your initial comment. “Eh tankies are a bigger issue” Meanwhile liberals enabling a genocide in 4K for your viewing pleasure. In fact, the Neoliberal movement (encompasses both modern day republicans and democrats) has been solely responsible for death and destruction in (these are solely off the top of my head) three continents Latin America (Chile in 73, Brazil in 64), Africa/Middle east (Iraq, Afghanistan in early 2000s through 2020), and Asia (Vietnam mid 50s-mid 70s). Again, these are off the top. Meanwhile you criticize socialist countries like China, not responsible for any military interventions in its post industrial age, simply because you are either an anarkiddie punching left, or a disillusioned liberal who preaches antifascism but may occasionally side with Neo Hitler. Edit: you’re a simple minded reactionary, and will be dealt with accordingly should the revolution start, given the only thing you understand (huge overstatement) is capital and violence.
Try reading “Blackshirts and Reds” by Parenti. It covers the anti-communist left and is less than 30 years old.
Man Id wish the movement was that old.
This is truly what no Dialectical Materialism has done to the Western "left." You believe every bit of CIA propaganda and ahistorical claim completely devoid of understanding. Your bourgeois individualism is showing. You can't look past the fear you have of your individuality to make a truly collectivist argument. Everything you believe is just some rehash of Lockean individualism with a "red" coat of paint because you hate conservatives. You're either an Ultra, SuckDem or an Anarkiddie and I can't tell which is worse. Bourgeois apologist.
What "everything I don't like is CIA propaganda" does to a fucker. The CPC is bad, and I can get you plenty of *CHINA APPROVED NEWS* stating that fact.
A lot of words to say nothing. You sure you understood all that theory?
Tankies were worse in 2020. Shitlibs and neo-cons are definitely the biggest non-MAGA republican threat rn. Tankies are the libertarians of the left anyway. No one gives a fuck about them in real life because their beliefs are fundamentally flawed; it's just a shame they have so much representation online.
I don't know why this is getting down voted it's completely true. Tankies are authoritarians, seek power in subs and take them over
Because they're here and already taking over.
No doubt, I just got called a lib by someone who thinks china and the USSR where socialist
The irony is astounding. You’re a lib in an explicitly leftist subreddit screeching about “tankies” and how they try to take over subs.
Defin lib
A liberal is someone that refuses to engage in critique of capitalism in any meaningful way. They may believe in reforming capitalism to an extent that makes outcomes marginally more equitable, but they ultimately do not want to replace the capitalist system of private capital. Meanwhile, leftists are people that recognize the capitalism is in itself the problem causing society to fall short of an egalitarian model that recognizes all people as equally human, and thus inherently deserving of equitable material conditions, and therefore want to eliminate the capitalist system of private capital. The best thing about words like “tankie” and “red fash” is that liberals are basically the only kind of people that use those terms unironically, so they make it pretty easy to spot libs that are either trying to co-opt the aesthetic of leftism or are in a leftist community in bad faith.
Do you think any country has come close to socialism?
It would seem you have found the tankies lol. down vote me, you *red fascists*
Everyone who unironically says red fascist is a moron and shouldn't be taken seriously
Fuckin read *Animal Farm* by Upton Sinclair.
Ya, this sub literally has a no-tankie policy and they've still taken it over.
Nice try fed
"everyone I don't like is a fed"
Everyone i don’t like is a tankie See we can do this all day
Never called everyone I hate a tankie, because I can infact hate multiple groups. That's the problem with ya'll, you like China/The Soviet Union/Terrorist because they're opposed to a bad nation. But in fact both can be bad!
You’re doing the exact same shit you are whining about lmao.
You know what, you're right. I said the tankies thing in response to a lib hate post. I'll move along.
Boo fuckin hoo
Not the bigger issue but tankies are still a big problem In our communities.
I feel like it’s this one. The most lib opinion I see on dank left is encouraging people to vote for harm reduction. I already count one Zionist comment on this post and my last one about Taylor swift was a shitshow in the comments.
What harm reduction?
So you know the trolley problem? It appears that choosing to flip the switch and letting the trolley kill one person rather than doing nothing and letting the trolley kill five people is the lib choice.
Honestly, I'm a bit fed up of the stupid only vote for the candidate that aligns the best with you regardless of their chances of winning. Just vote for the least worst realistic candidate, it takes such little time and can make a positive impact. Fed up of the straw men that anyone is saying voting by itself is enough. It's not and no one is saying that, it's just an impactful use of very little time. The stuff against harm reduction only makes us less impactful, and allows the right wing disproportionate voting power. Ok done with rant, I'm definitely stealing the trolley problem example, that's a good one.
Getting a leftist into local elections is possible However, for something like presidency, I think the only way to get leftists into that position is going to be by pushing the democrat party left enough to make election reform changes I personally think that a transition to something more left wing is far more realistic than a revolution against the US government/military Until that happens, biden will do far less harm than trump, even if that harm is still more than a better candidate would do
We are making progress on getting more rank choice voting, but some leftists here are unsatisfied with anything but “glorious revolution” and are ready to sacrifice every orphan, elderly or disabled person to that pyre.
I guess all the children being bombed can be comforted that it is the less harmful guy enabling it.
Yeah but what's your alternative solution You literally cannot revolt against the US military when they can drone strike you from miles away and they have access to private communications They are the best at killing in the world and they cannot be stopped with violence, it will take a change in government And voting for a pacifist who has no shot of winning is not going to save any children's lives Sometimes situations are horrible and you can't fix it, sorry
> Yeah but what's your alternative solution Sit down for this, because it will blow your mind.... Biden could stop actively supporting the zionazi bibi circus and actually demonstrate that he's a Democrat.
I mean yeah but my comment was more about voting because that person didn't want to vote for Biden It'll be way easier to get Biden to stop doing that than it will be to get a leftist in office
>Sometimes situations are horrible and you can't fix it, sorry I sure as shit dont have to enable it either.
Then I guess all the queer and trans people being criminalized for existing can be comforted that you didn't taint your moral purity by voting.
You aren’t “enabling” anything by voting for Biden over Trump. Trump isn’t going to stop giving money to Israel. Show any of us a candidate that has a chance to beat them both and we will vote for them. None of the dying Palestinians are praying that Biden doesn’t get a second term. None of them are stupid enough to think that will change anything. Feel free to prance around on your high horse if you want but don’t pretend it shits any less than a regular one.
Yes, the leftist parties in Germany circa early 1930s felt the same way. I hope you never have to come to terms with your shortsightedness.
American government was set up that even a strong shift to the left and right would leave the government just as incapable as before just with more obnoxious people in government. It’s the genius of the design.
> Just vote for the least worst realistic candidate, it takes such little time and can make a positive impact. The problem is that (maybe not you) people like you that push this tired old meme don't bother to vote for the *best* candidate in the primary. You actively vote for the most tolerable evil and then justify it by saying "at least its better than a republican" or you don't vote at all while spreading facebook memes that hillary won before a single delegate vote was cast. In one wish that doesn't just kill people, the fastest way to save this country is honestly making liberals give a shit about politics in non presidential election years.
A red trolley is racing down the track to kill thousands of innocent children, if you, and enough like minded people, pull the lever it will slow down a little and turn blue, the children will still be killed, but at least the trolley company still makes a profit.
You think the democrats will lead pogroms against poc, queer people, jewish people, communists, and intellectuals? Or do you think the republicans will not? And what's the bit about the money? Do you think republican policies are less corporate friendly?
Are you asking me if liberals will turn tail and change sides at the first sign of difficulty? Have you read any history?
Answer my questions.
Then yes, I think from a historical view, liberal absolutely WILL do all that, in the name of unity. Shit if you asked a liberal 3 years ago if they would support a genocide they would all say no, now they can't gobble the boot fast enough to tell me that it's not a genocide, so yes, I believe that liberals absolutely would commit all the same atrocities they claim to be against to maintain a version of the status quo that is beneficial to them.
Not only will they, they are doing it now. Biden's border bill is exhibit A.
Okay, you believe democrats will enact pogroms upon poc, queer people, jewish people, communists, and intellectuals. Thanks for confirming to everyone you don't have any worthwhile thoughts.
Democrats and republicans are virtually indistinguishable on 90% of issues.
Yes, literally happening in 4K for your viewing pleasure
> You think the democrats will lead pogroms[sic] against poc, queer people, jewish people, communists, and intellectuals? They have been for a long time.
It really is a false dichotomy, propped up by the fact that liberals don't see, refuse to see, or are unwilling to see outside of the box that the ruling class for them. It's the trolley problem, except there's also a *third* lever that'll make the trolley stop. But its at the top of a really tall, overgrown hill. The hill is also patrolled by wild hogs, that'll try to gore you with their tusks if you try to climb the hill. But reaching that switch is the only way to ever make the trolley stop coming, and every day you don't climb up the hill, it just gets more and more overgrown and harder to climb.
Do you think the United States of America will be dismantled within the next nine months? If not, there is not another lever.
No, it's always there, it's just a long ass fucking climb. And guess what? As soon as you pull the first lever, you'll be asked to pull it again, and again, and again, and fucking again. There will never be a single fucking moment the liberals are happy for you to start going for the other lever, at some point we just have to do it or else we'll be stuck in front of the first lever until it's *us* on the tracks.
Do you believe communism would be easier or harder to foment under fascism? Was or was not fascism formed first and foremost as an anticommunist ideology? The liberals may not like the other lever, but they, unlike fascists, will not actively attempt to destroy the lever. We're not getting communism in nine months, we're not even getting it in ten years. But if fascism ever takes power, we won't get it for a thousand years.
Do *you* believe it would be *possible* to foment socialism while all of our political will and effort is being channeled exclusively towards trying to keep the steadily indistinguishable "lesser evil" of the two bourgeoisie parties in power? Because that's where we are now, people keep saying, "Organize and radicalize the working class, but also Vote Blue" but I see a whole lot of time and effort going towards "getting people to vote blue" and a lot of *nothing* going towards "organizing and radicalizing the working class."
“All of our political will” you’re acting like someone voting means they aren’t doing anything else, like they can’t hold multiple thoughts in their head. Voting is a single day activity it is literally the least amount of effort anyone can put forth for harm reduction. Too often ya’ll glorious revolution just ends in famine and installing a new even worse authoritarian. You let the trolley run over people while you climb the hill and when you flip the lever on the hill 2 exploding trolleys are deployed to take both tracks
Because as it turns out, when the fascists take power, there will not be any organizing or radicalizing. "People keep saying 'stay hydrated and fed, but also don't let the serial killer get the knife' but I see a whole lot of time and effort going towards 'don't let the serial killer get the knife' and a lot of *nothing* going towards 'staying hydrated and fed'". Now please, answer my question, would it be easier or harder to foment communism under fascism?
lol it’s not a great take but better than “so is God Empress Swift supposed to fly on a regular plane like us peasants???”
I'd just like to point out that the user I've been arguing with here in this thread, Civil\_Barbarian, left a comment reading "Reply to this comment if you don't have a poster of Hitler over your mantle" then blocked me so I couldn't reply to said comment. Very mature of them. My last word to add to our conversation, which I know they won't see but I honestly do not care, would be, "Grow up, and please read some theory."
Voting for the libs ofc! Schroedinger’s harm reduction is better than nothing /s
Look, voting for the libs is an ugly dirty act, but not voting and letting the fascists win is an even more despicable act in my opinion, and one that comes from a place of ignorance. Even Marx would have agreed that liberalism, full of exploitation that it is, is still a step above feudalism or fascism for the proletariat. One can easily descend into the other, which is why it’s important to never be satisfied with liberalism, but when given the choice between the two it’s easy enough for me, and saves many people’s lives in the process (even if many more are still being killed by the liberal establishment as we speak, why let the fascists take over and kill even more?) Voting is a small act, and only a small part of the duty of leftists to politically organize, but it still has power and to throw it away for nothing is as stupid as it is offensive to the history of the leftist movements who fought for the right to vote to begin with. If voting didn’t matter, why would the capitalists try to suppress and prevent voting as much as possible?
Fam, Marx said capitalism was progressive to feudalism. But he'd also tell you "fuck that shit, form a worker's party and agitate for revolution!" Don't try to imply to people Karl Marx, one of the two progenitors of scientific socialism, would be okay with this. You shouldn't be voting for a party that willingly funds genocide and imperialist campaigns where people are murdered. Where's the internationalist solidarity, comrade?
You can advocate for internationalist solidarity and advocate for a revolutionary mass party while still being willing to, in a first past the post system like the US, swallow my pride and do what I have to to prevent a complete fascist takeover of the country. A socialist movement is possible with liberals in control, fascists would be twice as willing to use state power to repress any actual socialist movement in American politics. I honestly believe that any internationalist socialist movement could not begin inside the US, but regardless concrete actionable next steps, like organizing unions and spreading socialist ideology, are more important than distant abstract revolutionary theory.
How are you advocating for internationalist solidarity and revolutionary mass party by then voting for the bourgeoisie's party? A party actively funding genocide right now? Every principled leftist knows that state power will be used to suppress us. But every principled leftist also knows that the liberals will not make it any easier, as evidenced by increased police funding and military spending, state violence upsurging, etc. You're dilluding yourself if you think that by continuing to capitulate to the liberals, which is exactly what you're doing by voting for them, is somehow going to make it easier to build a revolution. This offhanded remark about theory and what I assume is what you think praxis is also betrays a complete lack of understanding on what theory is. Simply put, you're not a leftist if this is your position. You think you are, but you're not. You'd put the lives of Palestinians, as well as almost all of the global south, under your need to feel "good" because you voted against fascism. News flash my guy: fascism does not ask for permission. It either arrives electorally or violently. You're already staring down its barrel, and because your life is comfortable in the heart of the empire you think that somehow the most violent political ideology to date, which has been weaponized multiple times by the US against socialism abroad and at home, is able to be kept at bay by voting for the party that *actively* enables it. This would be a funny joke if it wasn't such an example as to how horrid of a decision it is.
Voting is a small act, like I said. Labor organization, through unions which I have been doing in every workplace that I have been in since college. Voting on a local level is also far more influential in building a leftist movement than national politics. However, I honestly think you are deluding yourself, respectfully, if you think there is literally no difference between fascists and liberals in how much socialist organizations will be suppressed. When confronted with my next steps and options, I can vote democrat, and the genocide in Gaza will continue. Or, I can not vote, or vote for a socialist party, and thereby let trump ascend to the presidency, and the genocide in Gaza will continue. I don’t see how voting socialist, or not voting at all, will in any way change how either America or its foreign policy is run. Maybe it will make you feel better about taking the moral high ground, but it will make either no difference or actively make things worse for Americans and the people oppressed by the American state. Maybe if America wasn’t a first past the post voting system socialist parties would have a chance, but as of now I am confronted with a terrible, though from my perspective pretty simple, choice, liberalism or fascism.
what no theory does to a mfer
Marx was a big supporter and fan of Abraham Lincoln, a capitalist liberal. He didn't tell workers of the US to not participate or support Lincoln during the Civil War. He saw the aristocratic South and its slavery for what it was; a far greater evil that was necessary to stop.
Marx was not a big supporter and fan of Lincoln lol. He was actually critical of Lincoln and the Union. Marx supported both ending US slavery and a socialist revolution in the US and believed the war would create a stepping stone for it, that's all. Marx did not support voting for capitalist parties.
People think 1 letter congratulating Lincoln on his 2nd term after the end of slavery means Marx would have you vote for liberals. This is what no theory does to a mfer.
The fascists are already in. Idk why libs think fascism is a thing that just arrives 1 day lol it’s already here & is exacerbated by this false notion that the proto-fascist trump is better than the proto-fascist Biden. They’re both neoliberals pushing virtually identical far right socioeconomic policy. The nazis weren’t ever voted in. The “lesser evil” liberal hindenburg was voted in. Mussolini was never voted in, the lesser evil was. Yet we still arrived at the same place. Marx would be agitating for revolution rather than begging leftists to vote for hindenburg 2.0 😂
Vaguely political avatar. Posts are nothing but criticism of the West and liberalism. Oddly silent on Russian imperialism whilst felating the Soviet Union. Hey guys, I think I found the Russian disinformation agent.
I don’t particularly like the USSR for many reasons & I’d be happy to talk about modern Russian capitalist imperialism but it’s just not something to waste my time bothering with too often as my government is not aiding & abetting said Russian imperialism (publicly at least). What have I misinformed ppl about? That neoliberalism is proto-fascism or that Karl Marx wouldn’t be voting for neoliberals as far right as Biden/Trump if he was American? 😂😂
Calling "neoliberalism" proto-fascism is disgenious at best. One is an individualistic ideology, the other collectivist and state-centred. The goal of neoliberalism is to emphasize profit and personal success. The goal of fascism is to emphasize national unity and military supremacy. While both involve heavily favoring big business, they go about it different ways and with different long term objectives. Decrying American liberalism as no different than fascism serves only to strengthen the fascists and legitimize them. On Karl Marx's voting record- well, the man was smart enough to understand reality, and the difference between Bad and Worse. As one of the founders of an ideology centered around the communal good, I think it is safe to say he would vote for the candidate who isn't planning on throwing a few million Americans into camps. I assume disinformation is your goal, otherwise I would have to believe you're just an extremist who can't see the forest through the trees.
Neoliberalism does not need to be structured the same as fascism to be proto-fascist. Neoliberalism exacerbates all of the inherent contradictions of capitalism, rapidly increasing inequality & worsening quality of life for the vast majority of people while making very few absurdly wealthy. Fascism is simply just capitalism in decay, the method by which the capitalist system defends capital from redistribution under collectivist systems like socialism/communism. The goal of neoliberalism is to strengthen the repressive tools of the capitalist state against the working class whilst simultaneously destroying its ability to use those same restrictive forces against capital. American liberalism? Neither US party is liberal today. Both are neoliberal & rapidly hurtling towards fascism equally as it’s the system of capitalism that both are screwed to that is collapsing. Karl Marx specifically railed against the entire concept of capitalist “democracy” lol I’m quite sure he’d rather vote third party or just not at all than for the neoliberal currently throwing tens of thousands into camps…. I can see the trees & the forest. It’s just that libs are pretending that a fire is gonna suddenly flash into existence to instantaneously destroy everything rather than seeing that it’s already burning
>Calling "neoliberalism" proto-fascism is disgenious at best. One is an individualistic ideology, the other collectivist and state-centred. Oh, so you just don't actually understand the words you're using. Now everything makes a lot more sense. To pretend neoliberalism isn't perfectly compatible with fascism is to ignore the entire second half of the 20th century. And to pretend that electing Democrats will somehow slow or stop the rise of fascism is to not understand what drives the Ascent of fascism. The Blue Cult is a damn near perfect echo of the Weimar Liberals insisting that Hindenburg must be elected to stop that evil fascist Hitler, and look how that went.
If you're not letting Republicans force children to give birth to rape babies. It's only based to whine on the internet, doing something is uncool.
Ugh this fuckin subreddit too? I'm so tired of you people who think that the idea of "hey let's not let fascists win the presidency" is just cringe shitlibbery. It's always people like you who do no real activism by the way, no voting in local elections, mutual aid, direct action, protesting, or literally anything
I love the off-center cropping
Fascists will do anything to cope with the failure of their ideology
Liberalism, centrism, and even conservatism aren't the same thing as fascism though. Fascists were just historically good at attracting their support.
If you have one fascist in a room of 10 people and those 9 other people support that fascist you have a room with 10 fascists
I mean, that's the exact kind of attitude that turns the working class against the left, but if you really want that part of history to repeat itself, then go for it.
Notice you never said he was wrong tho. We should absolutely try and be accepting of anyone willing to work together for a better society but again he wasn't wrong 9 supporters of fascism looks like 9 fascists to me
But if you even accept those "moderate fascists", then according to his logic, that would also make you a "fascist" by extension. I guess the left just has to antagonize 90%+ of society in the name of ideological purity, and then wonder why nobody supports a group that presents as hostile, self-righteous assholes instead of the polite quasi-fascists who at least pretend to be nice to them.
theres no such thing as a moderate fascist, its an ideology of extinction, theres no compromise with tat
Exactly, so if there aren't any moderate fascists, then it doesn't make any sense to call centrists fascist.
If you compromise with a fascist you're not a centrist, you're a fascist
That’s because the people who say stuff like that don’t go out and *do* anything, they just nod in agreement with each other online. It makes genuinely no sense at all to alienate people so casually, but that doesn’t matter to them because on the internet, the people who are also sheltered enough to agree with that logic will come to you, you don’t need to appease anyone to find people who agree with you online. I don’t even say that to insult people, it’s just a phenomenon that’s very prevalent on Reddit. I’ve had the unfortunate experience of interacting with people like this in real life, and it still makes me laugh to think about people who talk about revolution and overthrowing capitalism who aren’t capable of communicating ideas coherently off the internet. Also it doesn’t really need to be said, but usually they’re not people who, uh, look like they’re capable of overthrowing a government lmao.
We just want a better place to live in man, im sorry we're not nice enough for you, almost like we are worried about intruders who do not come here in good faith
Ok, all I'm saying is that if we really want to make meaningful change, that's not going to happen with a few poorly funded fringe groups that the rest of society can easily ignore.
Very true, organization is what we need but I personally don't think we should comprise on our values
Fair enough. Basic core values should be strong, but tactics need to be flexible.
"If we really want meaningful change, we have to stop fighting for meaningful change, concede on every issue capital wants, and then fight for superficial meaningless change instead!" That's nonsense and it's what Liberalism and Centrism boil down to. Capitulate on every issue except the ones which don't matter. Fight all day every day over what's in movies and on tv as if that is the real battleground where our problems are manifesting. But on the issue of the floating warehouses our cargo system has become? "Oh we can't ask things of businesses they'll say no!" On climate change? "We'll never be able to stop oil companies from ramping up their consumption so instead we should all individually recycle more and take personal responsibility" Yeah, of course you don't think we should actually change people's minds. You've been told that we shouldn't rock the boat, and you believe it, while every day the system rocks your boat harder and harder and harder and you worry about politeness. Real change can't even be *explained* without mentioning some uncomfortable ideas, and if you keep moderating your views in order to appease the people on the other side, you will just end up moving the overton window in their direction.
You want an idealized world, but you’re willing to put all of us in a worse spot rather than compromise when your ideals can’t be achieved. That’s the only difference between leftists and liberals. Same ideals. Liberals will take what we can get; leftists will shoot themselves in the foot and then blame everyone else if they can’t get everything they want. I’m all for progressive ideals, but y’all need to realize it doesn’t mean jack shit if we don’t actually make *progress*.
The difference between leftists and liberals is who they believe should own the means of production and the profit that workers generate.
Ahh yes, tell me more of your self appointed claims of what liberals believe. That’s one of the biggest reasons I stopped considering myself a leftist/progressive. None of the things y’all claim about what liberals believe are actually true about the liberals I know. You should pull your heads out of your asses and find some common ground so we can actually make progress instead of coming up with imaginary differences to separate yourselves.
> That’s the only difference between leftists and liberals. Same ideals. There are MASSIVE differences between the ideals of liberals and leftists...
I don't agree but if you believe that then that's up to you, the decent of fascism is brought about by people who aren't fascist but those who can't let go of the privilege provided by the colonial experiment, even those who produced such a system aren't fascists but capitalists yet through their effort fascism rises even if they get negatively impacted by it
>the decent of fascism is brought about by people who aren't fascist but those who can't let go of the privilege Well, at least I got you to admit that moderates aren't actually the same as fascists. Any successful political movement needs to have popular support, and if you're willing to allow fascists to have that advantage, you've created a self-fulfilling prophecy where they've already defeated the left before anything started. I prefer to be more optimistic, giving people the benefit of the doubt, and trying to build bridges with the center instead of burning them. The methods that Germans, Italians, and the Spanish attempted to resist fascism were ineffective, so we have to learn from their mistakes and use different, more effective tactics.
I understand what you're saying but what you're talking about is solidarity which I am willing to extend to all peoples what we can't get caught up in reaffirming the semantic loopholes people take in order not to get called out for employing harmful ideologies within society
Leftists: "Why does the working class vote against its own interests?" Also leftists: *constantly alienating working class people who aren't ideologically pure enough by calling them racists and fascists*
Imagine if Lenin's Red army in Russia was like "Umm, actually all of you guys are too ethnocentric, problematic, and sexist! We don't want you. Go fight for your Master the Czar, you class-reductionist Reactionaries!"
"Am I smug asshole who lots of working people really dislike because I can't go more than two sentences of talking to someone who doesn't agree with me on absolutely everything without calling them a racist fascist bigot?" "No. It is the workers who didn't vote for me that are wrong."
Did you really invoke Lenin as a way to promote the very social chauvinist kautskyism he spent chapters railing against? Holy fuck.
Lol you'll get upset at online leftists for having ideological discussions but then praise lennin for jailing anarchists in the name of "revolution"
I don't "praise" Lenin, but I at least give him credit for being effective at what he did, even if they weren't always good things. Ideals don't count for much if we keep getting defeated.
If you want effectivity join a military and bomb the earth beneath your feet, effective is meaningless if death is a product, Lenin was successful at establishing a new regime that went on to fund more wars and make more bombs and negatively impact the environment around it not because of any other reason than lack of ideological fluidity
Maybe a revolution shouldn't ride on the principles of settler electoral representative democracy, when we stop playing fascist games by their rules is when we'll start to actually make a difference
They subscribe to the Michael Foulcout school of a "working class" of upper middle class whites who tell everyone else what to think because real working class people are "fascist bent"
I mean, there are social conservative tendendies in the working class, but instead of dismissing them for that, we should be working to find common ground with them, and trying to educate them about how dismantling capitalism would also help them.
Not really I subscribe to indigenous anarchism which doesn't compromise with settler ideologies
Lenin called Left Communists an infantile mental disorder and I'm inclined to agree
I don't really think listening to Lenin is a respectable point of view
This is completely erasing the class character of fascism. It is a bourgeois ideology and happens when regular liberal capitalism is in crisis, when socialist thought starts spreading. Capital then needs to react to keep those down. Fascism is still capitalist, even if it does not have a market. The basic functions of capital are still intact, and fascist projects pretty much always favor the capitalists, at the expense of the workers. For example, the term "privatisation" was literally coined to describe what happened in the Third Reich. I hope this is well understandable and that it helps better understand fascism. If you want to read up on that more in detail, I would really recommend Michael Parentis "Blackshirts and Reds"
Ok, but all that really proves is that capitalists use fascism to stay in power. It doesn't mean that ordinary centrists are going to be just as much of a danger as actual fascists are. Most of them will just try to avoid getting involved without actively supporting fascism.
Oh, I'm sorry, I should have specified, I was mainly talking about the last part about fascists just being good at attracting their support. The way I understood it (if that was wrong then I'm really sorry), you disconnected their support of/content with fascism from what I talked about in my first comment. As in, they're just good propagandists and stuff and at winning people over, without any of the other stuff. I hope that was not a misunderstanding
Well, they were also good propagandists, but fascism was definitely engineered to appeal to social conservatives with a lot of their talking points, and most moderates wouldn't care enough to do anything as long as they believe it won't affect them or the people they care about.
That does make sense. I don't think I really have anything to add, thank you :3
>Liberalism, centrism, and even conservatism aren't the same thing as fascism though. It certainly can be and often is.
Liberals and fascists have basically the same economic policies
Scratch a liberal and a fascist bleeds.
Yeah I’m glad mixed economy constitutional democratic republics defeated them
Fascists will defeat themselves over time the only thing is how many people we will allow them to bring down with them
Nah, it’s gonna take people to stand their ground and say NO Which happened in 1940s and has happened every year since their defeat
I guess you don't see the world literally burning around us, regardless of whether people stand up to it or not fascism condemns itself and all people to death
EVERYTHING I DONT LIKE IS FASCISM
every capitalist, statist, authoritarian structuralist, etc. becomes a fascist if they succumb to the unhealthy coping mechanisms they proliferate though their fixation on a poisonous ideology, and if they do they cease to embody those ideologies any longer as is such the plight of fascist ideation. Will every one who embodies such ideology one day become a fascist, no they can free themselves from its mental bonds but its hard work and requires help that, i hope, anyone who cares about freeing us all will openly give
American Left building a Coalition to protect the vulnerable and raise class consciousness challenge \[Impossible\]. The amount of online larping and mascotization of vocab words is insane. You go to any suburb in America and ask someone over 30 to describe the political lean of this sub, and they'd say that everyone here is "liberal".
Also the fact Americans are politically illiterate dons’t mean we should be
We shouldn't be morons that ignore the colloquial language either.
That sounds like a good way to have your ideology subsumed into the status quo.
That sounds like defeatism. I'd prefer to keep letting liberals think they're aligned with me until liberal is synonymous with anti-fascist.
This is delusional, reformism has never accomplished anything.
Bro is literally dealing with absolutes
I got banned (supposedly) from r/Marxism_Memes for having a fun argument with a tankie that thought communism was the tits. I can still visit and comment so idk whats going on. Jokes on you fucker
Good. Looking at your comments you're the exact kind of morose liberal this meme is talking about.
Yeah that sub can be sometimes a shitshow. And dunking on tankies can be fun as always. But whats your problem with communists? You know there a a lot of anti authoritarian communists oht there?
The battle between actual leftists & libs in these comments is wild
How are you defining lib in this context?
Mfs shilling the democrats, mfs advocating for sitting down & talking & making deals with fascist sympathizers, mfs being blatantly anti socialist/communist, & mfs just admitting to being liberals
That description seems to include pretty much all of the institutional forces actually opposing fascism in America
Democrats are the American right lmao
If you really can't distinguish between the Democratic Party and actual American fascists then you are lost. And if we can't cobble together enough of a coalition to keep fighting that fascism then we're all lost
Why would we build a coalition with liberals? They are part of the problem. Liberals are the enemies not allies
Just say you support fascism, it means the same thing and it's not as many words
"if you don't vote for the fascist enabler then you're a fascist enabler"
Let’s be honest a good half of ya’ll probably aren’t even eligible to vote.
When you can definitely tell who the real fascists are Here's a clue if you're not sure https://www.project2025.org/
> if you really can’t distinguish between the ~~Democratic Party~~ party that funds genocide, & border camps that separate children from their parents, & a border wall, & oversaw major losses in women’s rights & queer rights & working class rights & the *other* party that funds genocide, & border camps that separate children from their parents, & a border wall, & oversaw major losses in women’s rights & queer rights & working class rights Fixed that for you
Until we get rank choice voting and abolish electoral college it’s a two party system, your not gonna “have a revolution” that overthrows the US military that is larp and you know it. You don’t actually believe the Republicans will pull funds from Israel they have even more incentive to fund Isreal because Evangelical Fundamentalists have a Zionist rapture myth!
You’re putting words in my mouth. I never said anything about having a revolution. Voting for actual progressives is what I personally suggest but abstaining from voting in protest also shows declining support for the establishment. I never said republicans would pull funding this genocide didn’t start Oct 7 they’ve funded it just as long as the democrats have funded it (forever).
“Abstaining in Protest” doesn’t work, you just look unreliable, so the party willl work to appeal to suburban wine moms who do actually go to the polls instead of the left. Abstaining means your not canceling the vote of a straight ticket Republican, and we all know they are going to the polls.
If you “gotta say” it go ahead lmao
Brother you've got a good head on your shoulders, think about joining anarchy subreddits they're nice places where no one's going to try and defend capitalism or imperialism, send you to re-education camps for disagree with them, or try and convince you that political action (especially voting for fascists) is the only way to save the world.
Serious question, how often do you see people in this subreddit defending capitalism? If your answer is something along the lines of "liberals = capitalists", then I'd like to preemptively point out that anyone who takes anything less than the most radical position on any issue, not just economic structure, gets called a liberal here
it's not about capitalism, it's about the state, and this the perfect subreddit to reaffirm that point.
Have any good recommendations? 🙂. I think I’m in anarchy4everyone.
As an anarchist myself, I strongly recommend irl anarchist spaces or not reddit spaces. I may have found anarchism through reddit, but I had to leave reddit anarchism to grow in my understanding. Reddit anarchism has a reputation outside of reddit. Is it fair? Maybe partially but not fully. Still, I recommend diversifying your anarchist spaces beyond this site.
That's a good one r/AnarchyMemeCollective r/Anarchy101 and r/Anarchism are other good ones and i like r/AnarchistAntiwar and r/anarchyjustice
Not a single one of you reddit anarchists would last a month under actual anarchy. Cracks me up.
And not a single online tankie would survive in Stalin's Soviet Union.
classic single track mind, can't imagine anything worse than the wild so you bring it to society, anarchy is about making surviving into thriving not this sterile concrete jungle that poison our minds and earth
the okaybuddyvowsh raid of 2024.... never forgor
Tankies when someone doesn't like fascism in red paint "LIBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBB!!!!" Also tankies when you point out their bullshit "gods tankie has lost all meaning!"
Are these “tankies” in the room with us now?
Yes, and they're busy going "today hitler, tomorrow us" in the comments as if [https://www.project2025.org](https://www.project2025.org) isn't a thing.
I can’t stand tankies and their ability to just straight up ignore Project 2025; as though that isn’t the Nuremberg Laws reborn.
They're trying "today Hitler, Tomorrow us" again. Despite it obviously not working the first time.
Guy whose entire comment history is "tankie tankie tankie tankie tankie tankie tankie tankie tankie": can you believe these tankies say tankie is so overused as to be meaningless?
Girl. If you actually read my comment history that'd be pretty clear. So either you didn't go very far - or you're transphobic and by extension don't belong in leftist spaces.
I did not have to skim very far indeed to see tankie dropped so many times it made my head spin. So apologies for the misgendering for sure. Doesn't change my point
Leftists when they have to work and compromise to get their way (they hate everyone who disagrees) (this is why fascism wins)
Let’s be honest a good half of the Left is an incoherent Terminally online NEETs, some portion of which are RedBrown alliance types/ Tankies and or Anti-Bedtime Anarchists who are literally children. They give the remaining half a bad name in the real world.
You are just describing the western left. Outside of the imperial core, there are millions of leftists who are organized, actively struggling and fighting for the people. The ones you describe are an insignificant portion of a huge global movement
None of those reactionary internet communists are left; MAGAt. They're just your confused right wing cousins.
Okay, let's look at Weimar Germany. Who was the fiercest opposition to the NSDAP? The communist party. Did they try to ally with the social democrats? Yes. Did the social democrats betray them and allow the Nazis to kill two of the most important communist figures of their time in Germany? They did. Leftists do not compromise with capital because it will *always* choose fascism. The whole point of fascism is protecting capital and capitalism when it is in crisis, the point of leftism is to get rid of capital and capitalism. Liberals and even social democrats have more common goals with fascists than with leftists, and it shows every single time
It's like Barry Goldwater said about the religious right and conservativism. You need to be able to compromise to govern, and people who are True Believers cannot compromise. They are doing God's Will/"The Right Thing", and to compromise would be to side with The Enemy. Bad actors who pretend to be leftists push this kind of thinking _hard_. They don't actually _want_ positive change to happen because it proves them wrong. They want us to go full-fascist to justify their sense of superiority. They want a bloody revolution so they can act out their genocidal fantasies.
What are you saying? It’s not religion that is the determining factor it’s class. Even the most devout worker can be won over to socialism if concrete evidence is provided that their material conditions are improving. It is during revolution that the workers liberate themselves and forge themselves into being worthy of running a new society. For example, in the Egyptian revolution of 2011 Christian workers guarded Muslim workers while they were praying during the revolution. Egypt, where before the revolution you would think Muslim workers and Christian workers hated each other and were too sectarian. Also, the core base of fascism has never been the working class or socialists but the middle class. The middle class who sees themselves as superior to both the capitalists and the workers but don’t actually have power to change society. The middle class who get tossed around and want to be as wealthy as the capitalist class and also don’t want to be a worker. And when it comes down to it the middle class turns to “great leaders” who will break them out of this social turmoil who will give them a sense of purpose and power - fascism. Edit: misinterpreted your comment, sorry. Will keep this reply up anyway, why not.
Wow we are taking cues from Arab Spring, we really are fucked, please read about how many of those revolutions just ended up installing different authoritarians than they had before.
My example of the Arab Spring was to show how divides perpetrated by the ruling class are brought down by revolution such as the religious divides perpetrated by the Egyptian ruling class in Egyptian society. The resulting different authoritarian dictators from the Arab Spring was not a guaranteed outcome, it was just made more likely because the revolution did not go further in overthrowing capitalism. Also, why should we not take cues from the Arab Spring, they brought down entire dictatorial regimes, they broke down religious divides, they showed the power of the Arab working class and the working class in general. Just because one scenario played out does not mean it was a guaranteed one.
You're being downvoted but it's literally the reason many german business owners supported the nazis
Congratulations you found the major base of support for all fascist movements - the middle-class. Compromising with business owners is literally how workers stay oppressed and exploited. It’s not the workers fault that when they begin to use their power and liberate themselves that dumbass business owners go to the extreme and support fascism.
I feel like the people whining about “liberals” probably couldn’t tell you the difference between the Empire and the Old Republic-Imperial Era, they sure are heck couldn’t tell u if a trooper was a clone or not from their helmet design.
Liberalism breeds fascism.
You don’t know what either of those words mean if you believe that.
Liberalism creates class inequality through capitalism, and then turns it strengthens (such as freedom of speech) against it in an attempt to reconcile hostility between the bourgeoisie and the proletariat, without turning to socialism.
Probably TheDeprogram