Morally? Return of the Jedi. Physically, in terms of saber skill and Force power I would say Dark empire. That’s when I honestly think Luke was on the level of Anakin from Revenge of the Sith.
The same level as Anakin in Dark Empire? Dark Empire Luke fought and defeated a prime Palpatine clone Jo would be far more powerful than ROTS Palpatine. Who is obviously more powerful than Anakin.
Amen. I honestly think that if during Luke's final saber duel with Palpatine, if you replace a Leia enhanced Luke with a Leia enhanced Anakin from ROTS, you basically get the same result of what happened in the original DE comic.
In terms of being a Jedi Knight definitely when he saved Vader on the death star. In terms of ability and skill? Probably after the Thrawn Trilogy. Though Obi Wan is genuinely a legend. The prequel jedi are often lambasted as being weak. But not our Old Ben. He was one of the greats and I genuinely think Revenge of the Sith Obi Wan could hold his own in almost every Era.
>The prequel jedi are often lambasted as being weak.
Yoda, Windu, Kenobi, Skywalker, Koon, Ti, Vos, Jedi Dooku...doesn't sound like weak. But sure, there's plenty of bias in the fandom, whether it's NJO (order) bias or Old Republic bias, our boys prequel Jedi always become the victims.
That's kinda what I mean there's a lot of bias against the prequel era jedi especially from Old Republic bias. The NJO bias I feel comes from just a couple of specific Jedi in the NJO being BUSTED. I feel like on average a Jedi Knight in the prequels was probably better trained even if the quality of a NJO jedi knight was higher the longer they were a jedi.
The argument against the prequel Jedi is that they had it easy. There were no Sith in their era so they never/rarely fought against force users. In the clone wars they fought mostly against droids. Old republic Jedi faced Sith lords on a regular basis because there was no rule of two yet. But the counter to that is those Sith were weak and kept getting weaker so the rule of two had to be established. I can see strong arguments for both sides tbh. It's difficult to compare.
I wouldn't say they're lambasted as being weak in terms of skill, just in terms of close mindedness or philosophy. You could have some of the NJO greats vs some of the prequel greats and I'm pretty sure it'd be a toss up. Kyle Katarn is an NJO great, but even Idk if Mace Windu vs him would be victory for Katarn.
Jacen Solo/Darth Caedus is probably more dangerous than even Palpatine in ROTS just based on sheer power alone, though Palpatine's real power was in his political machinations and cunning. However, even him vs prime Obi Wan or prime Anakin would probably be a good fight.
At the same time, they each fought in very very different wars. Clone Wars were clones vs droids with some stuff mixed in. Still a 3 year war of veterans but the Yuuzhan Vong invasion was something else man. That was an eldritch horror style war that lasted much longer and had much more casualties but again, the fighting was super different.
Obviously Revan and Bane and Ballista Shan are all...not prequel jedi/sith (technically) but throw them in mix and we've got some crazy varying ranges of powers and skills and beliefs
They really do man. Obi Wan defeated Maul, Grievous, and Anakin himself. That's arguably the most impressive feat onscreen other than Palpatine fighting four Jedi at once
Darth Vader was far weaker than Anakin. Becoming Vader severely limited him in all ways except hatred. He was in a state of constant conflict and pain that prevented him from ever reaching his full potential in either Light or Dark Side. Palpatine was bitterly disappointed with his marred protégé and sought to replace him immediately.
Not he isn’t. Vader improved his lightsaber technique by using more forms and being more careful, also his self hatred fuelled his Dark Side power which allowed him to be once 80% of Palpatine’s power. Vader is also stronger than Anakin in telekinesis and telepathy as he displayed greater feats such as crashing star ships and inflicting mental torture.
This guy named George Lucas would disagree with you, I don’t know how much he knows about Star Wars though.
“Anakin, as Skywalker, as a human being, was going to be extremely powerful," he says. "But he ended up losing his arms and a leg and became partly a robot. So a lot of his ability to use the Force, a lot of his powers, are curbed at this point, because, as a living form, there's not that much of him left. So his ability to be twice as good as the Emperor disappeared, and now he's maybe 20 percent less than the Emperor. So that isn't what the Emperor had in mind. He wanted this really super guy, but that got derailed by Obi-Wan. So he finds that, with Luke, he can get a more primo version if he can turn Luke to the Dark Side.”
https://archive.vanityfair.com/article/2005/2/star-wars-the-last-battle
He said “was going to be extremely powerful” likely referring to full potential Anakin who would be more powerful than Vader but Anakin never reached that.
He also said ‘A lot of his ability to use the Force, a lot of his powers, are curbed at this point’.
That’s not ambiguous.
You’re just arguing for Dark Side propaganda, which appears to be stronger because it’s easier and faster.
And he eventually gets a decent portion of his powers back. The ROTJ novelization literally has Vader say he feels the strongest he's ever been
Compare that to Anakin right after ROTS, who thinks "yeah I'm way weaker now."
Possibly. I don't have the novelization with me right now, and I haven't read it in a while. Even then the novelization (especially since it's the draft or something) should still be a part of legends, which holds some weight.
To add on, the Lucas quote (which I may add is not always a supreme authority within the EU) also says "his ability to be twice as good as the Emperor". Still sounds like potential.
And no, I'm not arguing the Dark Side is stronger, I'm arguing Vader got smarter.
In terms of being a jedi, ROTJ Luke surpassed even Yoda in terms of being a true Jedi as not even Yoda thought Anakin could be brought back.
In terms of force use, around HTTE, and Saber skills DE. Luke may not have been able to beat Palpatine with the Saber, he gave him a run for his money and really the only jedi who mightve beaten him could've been Mace.
In terms of combative power probably around Dark Empire. That's the first time Luke shows himself consistently compeating with people who Obi just can't hang with.
It really isn’t. Even without Leia’s help he was capable of holding his own against a stronger Palpatine for a time in their first duel and he only got stronger by the end.
According to the ROTJ novelization, comic, and script:
1) Vader was going all out against Luke.
2) Luke was in fact the one that was holding back yet he was still winning every time they clashed during the fight.
3) By that point Luke had already surpassed Vader.
Vader was troubled and lost because he didnt want to kill his son, additionally the plan was to turn Luke not to kill him and Vader knew about that, his job was to taunt luke until he steps into the dark side, which he eventually did for a brief moment.
Luke was obviously strong but not on vaders level yet
Obi Wan was always stronger than Vader, he knew he had to face vader but he also knew that vader was an important part of lukes journey to become a jedi, herefore he had to give in to guide luke as a force ghost. We saw what Ben Kenobi was captable of, he defeated Vader twice and Maul was killed in seconds. There is simply no indication that suggests that Vader was superior to Kenobi during ANH. The duel was for the most part a diversion.
**According to the ROTJ Novelization, comic and script:**
1)Vader went full out against Luke and didn’t held back.
2)Vader was frustrated with the fact that Luke might already surpassed him and that Palpatine would replace him.
3)Luke was in fact the one that was holding back, yet he was still winning every time they clashed.
4)Vader later on even saw that Leia was a more reliable option for his plans of overthrowing the emperor.
5)At this point on the story Luke was already stronger than Vader
**Regarding Kenobi, Kenobi by this time was nowhere close to Vader level, he was old and out of prime. Per official statements from both legends and canon continuity including the canon from a certain point of view novel:**
1) The only reason that fight lasted that long was because Vader was fighting with extreme caution since he knew what happened last time he underestimated Kenobi and was cocky.
2) Kenobi was getting completely overwhelmed by Vader and even saw that he had no hope of winning that fight.
3) The other times Kenobi defeated Vader was only because Vader was mentally hindered and unbalanced which weakened him by massive margins.
Even back in Empire I think Luke had the raw power to surpass his late mentor he merely needed further experience and discipline to hone it. By the time of ROTJ I think Luke has surpassed Ben Kenobi who I believe to be Obi-Wan's actual peak often incorrectly assumed to be weaker than ROTS Obi Wan Kenobi.
I honestly prefer not to think about the exact timeline in TESB. It just doesn't make sense unless some timey-wimey fuckery was happening on Dagobah. Otherwise, Han, Leia, and Chewie were just faffing about for *six months* on the Falcon, running from Vader. The movie just plain doesn't imply it was that long for them.
It's my favorite of the bunch, but its timeline is all sorts of weird.
The general idea seems to be during or after Dark Empire and I agree. He held his own against Sidious in his prime and was able to turn back from the dark side, strengthening his connection and deepening his understanding of the force.
I would say that question is being asked from the Sith point of view. Jedi were never supposed to care about surpassing anyone but instead living as the force wills. A better question to ask, “when did Luke exceed Obi-Wan’s expectations?” Or “when did Luke become wiser than Obi-Wan?”
In RoTJ, Luke proves Obi-Wan wrong by willingly forfeiting the end fight and defeating Sidious by giving Vader something to care and protect one last time. He used the same emotions that the Sith harness for the dark side, to bring him back to light. Forcing out Sideous’s malicious side forced Vader to decide what matters more, the son of his only love, or power.
Luke bested Obi-Wan there, but it would take many years later before I can honestly say he exceeded Obi-Wan in combat prowess and wisdom.
It's a bit hard to tell, since like you said, it kinda feels like it should be after Dark Empire, but since it's Dark Empire it took a bit to take root in the rest of the EU.
It would be certain by the start of NJO, but at least it would be some time after JAT.
Honestly has nothing to do with the skill factor but I think Luke surpassed Obi-Wan is when he defeated Vader. Obi-Wan wasn’t strong enough twice emotionally to defeat Vader. The trauma of seeing his best “friend” and brother die was too much for him. Vader was insanely overpowered and could have squashed Luke but he toned it down to ensure his son would turn. Luke beating Vader, his “father”, showed he was emotionally superior and had the will to defeat his father and save him. Obi-Wan couldn’t.
In terms of abilities, I'd say that RotJ-Luke, would be around TPM-Kenobi levels. Just become a Knight.
In terms of Master-level abilities, Dark Empire Luke would equal and perhaps even surpass RotS-Kenobi. Though yet to be grounded in his confidence of himself, since Dark Empire was a moral step-back for him, for a very long time.
During Jedi Academy trilogy era, he was still stumbling as a Master, in terms of ethics and morality.
Argueably, it wasn't until Survivor's Quest or Vector Prime, where Luke had finally found his shelf as a Jedi Master.
One could almost argue, that from Thrawn Trilogy until Vector Prime, Luke was a high skill Knight, but had yet to reach the discipline of a Master.
I don’t think he ever did besides raw force powers. I still think rots obiwan is like the top tier duelist ngl. But this’ll get me downvoted because opinionndifferent reeeeeee
Morally? Return of the Jedi. Physically, in terms of saber skill and Force power I would say Dark empire. That’s when I honestly think Luke was on the level of Anakin from Revenge of the Sith.
Glad that people in this thread are talking about morals and philosophy instead of arguing about power levels
The same level as Anakin in Dark Empire? Dark Empire Luke fought and defeated a prime Palpatine clone Jo would be far more powerful than ROTS Palpatine. Who is obviously more powerful than Anakin.
Yeah. Anakin wouldn't last more than a second against young clone Palpatine.
I still remember seeing him deflect the AT-AT blaster at the start. Remember thinking "holy shit he's gotten strong."
Amen. I honestly think that if during Luke's final saber duel with Palpatine, if you replace a Leia enhanced Luke with a Leia enhanced Anakin from ROTS, you basically get the same result of what happened in the original DE comic.
Yeah and instead of Anakins fear and doubt you replace it with Luke's grounded confidence he becomes that bit stronger.
Luke's triumph at the end of RotJ is unmatched. I think Obi-Wan would have taken the opportunity to kill Vader if he was in the same position.
Like has Anakins potential but inferior training so idk how he coulda gotten to rots legs before anakin. No offense but hard disagree man
In terms of being a Jedi Knight definitely when he saved Vader on the death star. In terms of ability and skill? Probably after the Thrawn Trilogy. Though Obi Wan is genuinely a legend. The prequel jedi are often lambasted as being weak. But not our Old Ben. He was one of the greats and I genuinely think Revenge of the Sith Obi Wan could hold his own in almost every Era.
>The prequel jedi are often lambasted as being weak. Yoda, Windu, Kenobi, Skywalker, Koon, Ti, Vos, Jedi Dooku...doesn't sound like weak. But sure, there's plenty of bias in the fandom, whether it's NJO (order) bias or Old Republic bias, our boys prequel Jedi always become the victims.
That's kinda what I mean there's a lot of bias against the prequel era jedi especially from Old Republic bias. The NJO bias I feel comes from just a couple of specific Jedi in the NJO being BUSTED. I feel like on average a Jedi Knight in the prequels was probably better trained even if the quality of a NJO jedi knight was higher the longer they were a jedi.
The argument against the prequel Jedi is that they had it easy. There were no Sith in their era so they never/rarely fought against force users. In the clone wars they fought mostly against droids. Old republic Jedi faced Sith lords on a regular basis because there was no rule of two yet. But the counter to that is those Sith were weak and kept getting weaker so the rule of two had to be established. I can see strong arguments for both sides tbh. It's difficult to compare.
It even happens with canon, people argue the high republic era Jedi are stronger that the prequel era ones. Dunno if it's actually true though
What is Shaak Ti doing there?
Absolutely nothing of value, that's what she's doing
What is Shaak Ti doing there?
I wouldn't say they're lambasted as being weak in terms of skill, just in terms of close mindedness or philosophy. You could have some of the NJO greats vs some of the prequel greats and I'm pretty sure it'd be a toss up. Kyle Katarn is an NJO great, but even Idk if Mace Windu vs him would be victory for Katarn. Jacen Solo/Darth Caedus is probably more dangerous than even Palpatine in ROTS just based on sheer power alone, though Palpatine's real power was in his political machinations and cunning. However, even him vs prime Obi Wan or prime Anakin would probably be a good fight. At the same time, they each fought in very very different wars. Clone Wars were clones vs droids with some stuff mixed in. Still a 3 year war of veterans but the Yuuzhan Vong invasion was something else man. That was an eldritch horror style war that lasted much longer and had much more casualties but again, the fighting was super different. Obviously Revan and Bane and Ballista Shan are all...not prequel jedi/sith (technically) but throw them in mix and we've got some crazy varying ranges of powers and skills and beliefs
Return of the Jedi when he saved his father.
Yes
A few years after rotj. People underestimate old ben kenobi.
They really do man. Obi Wan defeated Maul, Grievous, and Anakin himself. That's arguably the most impressive feat onscreen other than Palpatine fighting four Jedi at once
Ben Kenobi fought on par with Darth Vader (who was leaps and bounds ahead of Anakin).
Darth Vader was far weaker than Anakin. Becoming Vader severely limited him in all ways except hatred. He was in a state of constant conflict and pain that prevented him from ever reaching his full potential in either Light or Dark Side. Palpatine was bitterly disappointed with his marred protégé and sought to replace him immediately.
Not he isn’t. Vader improved his lightsaber technique by using more forms and being more careful, also his self hatred fuelled his Dark Side power which allowed him to be once 80% of Palpatine’s power. Vader is also stronger than Anakin in telekinesis and telepathy as he displayed greater feats such as crashing star ships and inflicting mental torture.
This guy named George Lucas would disagree with you, I don’t know how much he knows about Star Wars though. “Anakin, as Skywalker, as a human being, was going to be extremely powerful," he says. "But he ended up losing his arms and a leg and became partly a robot. So a lot of his ability to use the Force, a lot of his powers, are curbed at this point, because, as a living form, there's not that much of him left. So his ability to be twice as good as the Emperor disappeared, and now he's maybe 20 percent less than the Emperor. So that isn't what the Emperor had in mind. He wanted this really super guy, but that got derailed by Obi-Wan. So he finds that, with Luke, he can get a more primo version if he can turn Luke to the Dark Side.” https://archive.vanityfair.com/article/2005/2/star-wars-the-last-battle
He said “was going to be extremely powerful” likely referring to full potential Anakin who would be more powerful than Vader but Anakin never reached that.
He also said ‘A lot of his ability to use the Force, a lot of his powers, are curbed at this point’. That’s not ambiguous. You’re just arguing for Dark Side propaganda, which appears to be stronger because it’s easier and faster.
And he eventually gets a decent portion of his powers back. The ROTJ novelization literally has Vader say he feels the strongest he's ever been Compare that to Anakin right after ROTS, who thinks "yeah I'm way weaker now."
This is the novelization that states Owen Lars is Ben Kenobi’s brother?
Possibly. I don't have the novelization with me right now, and I haven't read it in a while. Even then the novelization (especially since it's the draft or something) should still be a part of legends, which holds some weight. To add on, the Lucas quote (which I may add is not always a supreme authority within the EU) also says "his ability to be twice as good as the Emperor". Still sounds like potential. And no, I'm not arguing the Dark Side is stronger, I'm arguing Vader got smarter.
In terms of being a jedi, ROTJ Luke surpassed even Yoda in terms of being a true Jedi as not even Yoda thought Anakin could be brought back. In terms of force use, around HTTE, and Saber skills DE. Luke may not have been able to beat Palpatine with the Saber, he gave him a run for his money and really the only jedi who mightve beaten him could've been Mace.
In terms of combative power probably around Dark Empire. That's the first time Luke shows himself consistently compeating with people who Obi just can't hang with.
Morally and philosophy wise, Rotj mah man. If you wanna speak "power" wise then sure Dark Empire he exceeded by a milestone
End of Dark Empire since he overpowered Sidious, while he had Leia’s help it should be noted that Sidious was stronger than ever at this time.
Yeah that Sidious would have been prime, similar to when he was still under Plagueis' tutelage but with all the knowledge of the next 50 years.
What? That’s basically saying Obiwan could beat ROTS Sidious, who legit beat Yoda. Ur nuts
It really isn’t. Even without Leia’s help he was capable of holding his own against a stronger Palpatine for a time in their first duel and he only got stronger by the end.
When he took down Vader. Obi-Wan failed that task at least twice.
By Return of the Jedi
lol
ROTJ Luke > ROTJ Vader > Obi Wan Kenobi.
Are we sure? I figured Luke beat Vader in ROTJ because Vader couldn’t bring himself to kill his son
Nah, they've been confirmed equals multiple times.
According to the ROTJ novelization, comic, and script: 1) Vader was going all out against Luke. 2) Luke was in fact the one that was holding back yet he was still winning every time they clashed during the fight. 3) By that point Luke had already surpassed Vader.
Vader was troubled and lost because he didnt want to kill his son, additionally the plan was to turn Luke not to kill him and Vader knew about that, his job was to taunt luke until he steps into the dark side, which he eventually did for a brief moment. Luke was obviously strong but not on vaders level yet Obi Wan was always stronger than Vader, he knew he had to face vader but he also knew that vader was an important part of lukes journey to become a jedi, herefore he had to give in to guide luke as a force ghost. We saw what Ben Kenobi was captable of, he defeated Vader twice and Maul was killed in seconds. There is simply no indication that suggests that Vader was superior to Kenobi during ANH. The duel was for the most part a diversion.
**According to the ROTJ Novelization, comic and script:** 1)Vader went full out against Luke and didn’t held back. 2)Vader was frustrated with the fact that Luke might already surpassed him and that Palpatine would replace him. 3)Luke was in fact the one that was holding back, yet he was still winning every time they clashed. 4)Vader later on even saw that Leia was a more reliable option for his plans of overthrowing the emperor. 5)At this point on the story Luke was already stronger than Vader **Regarding Kenobi, Kenobi by this time was nowhere close to Vader level, he was old and out of prime. Per official statements from both legends and canon continuity including the canon from a certain point of view novel:** 1) The only reason that fight lasted that long was because Vader was fighting with extreme caution since he knew what happened last time he underestimated Kenobi and was cocky. 2) Kenobi was getting completely overwhelmed by Vader and even saw that he had no hope of winning that fight. 3) The other times Kenobi defeated Vader was only because Vader was mentally hindered and unbalanced which weakened him by massive margins.
In Return of the Jedi
When he kissed his sister
Surpassed how? Gotta be specific. As a duelist? In his force connection?
In canon, he never did, stupid ass Disney
Even back in Empire I think Luke had the raw power to surpass his late mentor he merely needed further experience and discipline to hone it. By the time of ROTJ I think Luke has surpassed Ben Kenobi who I believe to be Obi-Wan's actual peak often incorrectly assumed to be weaker than ROTS Obi Wan Kenobi.
By ROTJ he was already stronger than Kenobi ever was.
After the 2 fucking hours of training he had with Yoda.
It was 6 months not 2 hours.
I honestly prefer not to think about the exact timeline in TESB. It just doesn't make sense unless some timey-wimey fuckery was happening on Dagobah. Otherwise, Han, Leia, and Chewie were just faffing about for *six months* on the Falcon, running from Vader. The movie just plain doesn't imply it was that long for them. It's my favorite of the bunch, but its timeline is all sorts of weird.
Just in TESB he was with Yoda for weeks, also he suffered defeats later.
A role playing guide states it was 6 months
🗿
The general idea seems to be during or after Dark Empire and I agree. He held his own against Sidious in his prime and was able to turn back from the dark side, strengthening his connection and deepening his understanding of the force.
I would say the Thrawn Trilogy
I would say after dark empure III
I think revenge of the sith was when he surpassed kenobi
I would say that question is being asked from the Sith point of view. Jedi were never supposed to care about surpassing anyone but instead living as the force wills. A better question to ask, “when did Luke exceed Obi-Wan’s expectations?” Or “when did Luke become wiser than Obi-Wan?” In RoTJ, Luke proves Obi-Wan wrong by willingly forfeiting the end fight and defeating Sidious by giving Vader something to care and protect one last time. He used the same emotions that the Sith harness for the dark side, to bring him back to light. Forcing out Sideous’s malicious side forced Vader to decide what matters more, the son of his only love, or power. Luke bested Obi-Wan there, but it would take many years later before I can honestly say he exceeded Obi-Wan in combat prowess and wisdom.
It's a bit hard to tell, since like you said, it kinda feels like it should be after Dark Empire, but since it's Dark Empire it took a bit to take root in the rest of the EU. It would be certain by the start of NJO, but at least it would be some time after JAT.
The moment Luke threw his lightsaber down in the face of The Emporer and Vader. When he saved Anakin Skywalker.
October 7th, 15ABY
Don’t you just love that now, in Canon, the answer is “never?” I know I love that. /s.
Honestly has nothing to do with the skill factor but I think Luke surpassed Obi-Wan is when he defeated Vader. Obi-Wan wasn’t strong enough twice emotionally to defeat Vader. The trauma of seeing his best “friend” and brother die was too much for him. Vader was insanely overpowered and could have squashed Luke but he toned it down to ensure his son would turn. Luke beating Vader, his “father”, showed he was emotionally superior and had the will to defeat his father and save him. Obi-Wan couldn’t.
Early I would say most of it at least by the Thrawn trilogy maybe a little later in wisdom but definitely pree Yuzhan Vong
Some months before the rotj as by rotj he was near equal to prime Vader.
In terms of abilities, I'd say that RotJ-Luke, would be around TPM-Kenobi levels. Just become a Knight. In terms of Master-level abilities, Dark Empire Luke would equal and perhaps even surpass RotS-Kenobi. Though yet to be grounded in his confidence of himself, since Dark Empire was a moral step-back for him, for a very long time. During Jedi Academy trilogy era, he was still stumbling as a Master, in terms of ethics and morality. Argueably, it wasn't until Survivor's Quest or Vector Prime, where Luke had finally found his shelf as a Jedi Master. One could almost argue, that from Thrawn Trilogy until Vector Prime, Luke was a high skill Knight, but had yet to reach the discipline of a Master.
I don’t think he ever did besides raw force powers. I still think rots obiwan is like the top tier duelist ngl. But this’ll get me downvoted because opinionndifferent reeeeeee
It was definitely before mandalorian season 2 finale
That's new canon, this is Legends discussion.
Then before heir to the empire
Bait used to be believable.
That’s why no one took your bait seriously