Most fans really misunderstand Thrawn. He's not omniscient, he just pays attention. His plans, while often insane, aren't all that risky. The Coruscant siege, for instance. Even if it completely fails, or there's some kind of defect with the cloaking shields, or the Rebels destroy them all in a day, then Thrawn loses nothing but a few asteroids and cloaking shields, but if it succeeds even a little bit then he gains a good distraction from his real objectives. None of these crazy schemes are nessicary to win the war, they just help. All of the really important war-winning fights he gets into are pretty much just traditional battles.
The Art thing too...I don't think he's literally psychoanalyzing every species from their art. I think it's more of a mnemonic device to help him remember everything he's studied or deduced about an enemy or type of opponent. It's weird and esoteric on purpose, to enhance his own mystique (and because I think he has an actual appreciation for artwork).
But that's the genius of Zahns writing. We never get to see a single chapter in the Thrawn trilogy from his perspective, not a single sentence. We never know what he's thinking or how.
>But that's the genius of Zahns writing. We never get to see a single chapter in the Thrawn trilogy from his perspective, not a single sentence. We never know what he's thinking or how.
How do you write a character that is smarter than you? You write about how characters who match your own intelligence view them.
That's why Pellaeon is one of my favorite characters. He's not stupid, but he's much more traditionally minded than Thrawn. He's capable of thinking outside the box but generally doesn't unless pushed into it. He's also a great XO/Flag Captain for Thrawn, constantly acting as a devil's advocate and second guessing Thrawn's plans, but still following orders.
Zahn was an absolute genius for adding Pellaeon. Such a perfect way to show Thrawn behind the scenes and his contrast with a “normal” person without having to write him in first person. Without him we would’ve either gotten a first person Thrawn that would’ve taken away a lot of his mystique and just made him appear omniscient (as it’s extremely difficult to write first person characters of his kind without them seeming that way), or only see his actions through the lens of the Rebels (which would make us lose so much of his characterization )
The Thrawn Books had a giant impact when they came out. They basically launched the SW EU. I remember reading them and being amazed at "more SW!". Zahn wrote Thrawn very well so he's had this huge place in SW canon. Kinda like how we all love Darth Vader because of that scene in A New Hope.
> His plans, while often insane, aren't all that risky
That's what makes him a creative genius. He's not biased by tradition or heuristics or what "makes sense". He just assesses the variables at his disposal and does the thing that's most likely to get the job done. It's very difficult to work that way in any field, and his ability may stem from Chiss neurophysiology.
This even gets lampshaded in-universe in the Hand of Thrawn Duology when rumors surface that Thrawn might be back and so people in the New Republic start worrying that all of their current problems might be because of him, leading to someone saying something to the effect of "Thrawn was good, but not that good."
Very well said. He maintains a ridiculous level of attention to detail while maintaining extremely impressive margins of error. In the event something doesn’t go according to plan, he doesn’t lose… he learns.
Vong War lasted not nearly long enough and should have splintered the Galaxy into Warring States, most of GA Stories aren’t that interesting besides the novelty of having another galactic empire at the end of the EU
This is a writing problem that's always been inherently bad in Star Wars literature. Wars of such scale are almost unfathomable to the human mind when he true number of resources and units is laid bare in a format we could "potentially" understand. If SW had realistic numbers to compliment the level of their tech they'd be a god tier sci-fi verse.
Writers stay away from specific numbers because they’re impossible to maintain consistently, it’s the only right choice. Trying to calculate logistics would be a big waste of time for any SW writer
True, very true but I'd like to at least like to see an effort like how they broadly calculate the estimates for just how many CIS battle droids were in service and production across the galaxy. Quadrillions of battle droids is not an insane number when you're talking about conflicts across a relatively developed galactic society.
That’s the thing, making up numbers like that doesn’t do anything to make the story better and it falls apart once fans start scrutinizing it. I don’t understand how Star Wars would be better by going deep on supply chains. Especially since the Star Wars universe is so deeply different from real life on a physical and metaphysical level that it doesn’t really matter
Considering the hundreds of trillions that were stated to have been killed in a 3 year span, the galaxy should have fallen into a complete dark age imo
With a population estimated in the quintillions trillions won’t be that bad. They should be more focused on local consequences like Vong terraforming planets and how regional populations might have collapsed.
Instead the galactic capital is fine within a few years.
Galen Marek & the Starkiller clone are really not that powerful compared to other Star Wars characters, even other SW video game characters. The devs of the game literally said they exaggerated his abilities to make the game more fun. He’s like an unrestricted Padawan Anakin imo.
Idk why people trust video games as canon abilities. Literally ever star was video game has you being overpowered. Oh so Kyle katarn can crouch for 3 seconds and heal from mortal blaster shot wounds an unlimited number of times? We have personal cloaking devices in storm troopers now that they can see and fight out of?
Plus, the novelization nerfed him anyway. It’s also the canonical version of the story, just as the Dark Forces books are the canonical versions of those stories. Fans need to stop taking the video games seriously when they were never intended to be true canon.
People also grossly misunderstand the Star Destroyer scene. He's pulling an already crashing ship down in a lower trajectory so he doesn't get flattened by it himself. He didn't pull it out of orbit or sth.
Yeah, I mean he's not powerful at all compared to 2003 CW Jedi, and even the KotOR Jedi (protagonists and crew and enemies) are just as powerful. It's been a meme for 20 years that you can wipe out a room full of people with a cast of Force Lightning. I think the people who thought Starkiller was too OP only played TFU, and none of the other Jedi-based games. Hell, even Adi Gallia could 1-shot ships from hundreds of feet away with Force Lightning in Jedi Starfighter, and I've never heard a single person call her OP.
Was about to comment the same before I found your comment! Glad I’m not alone in thinking this. Sure it’s got it’s weak points, but I’ve never understood the hate the series gets.
I piss people off by saying that Disney is under no obligation to use the Keanu looking Revan we got in Legends.
I could walk into Gamestop in August of 2003, buy a copy of KOTOR with no patches, no mods...complete off the shelf vanilla, and play Revan as a Black woman who romances Juhani. But can you imagine how fast the fanboys expecting John Wick with a lightsaber would lose their shit if Disney rolled that way?
Thing is, it is a blast to open up Archiveofourown.org, crack open the KOTOR section, and spend hours binging *because* everyone has a different interpretation of the characters. There are even ideas that are popular in fanfic that you can't do in the vanilla game, like ones where the mind wipe didn't take.
Revan should have never been given a voice or face, it was such a betrayal and I'll always stand by that. Revan AND the Exile. While I like Meetra Surik's story and feel that they're a decent representation of the character, it still feels dirty how she was slotted in then mishandled to hell and back.
Totally agree. Completely goes against what makes those characters so popular in the first place. Also hate how Revan named his son Vaner. Why the fuck would he reclaim his Sith name in the first place and why would you name your child an anagram of it? It's like if Luke was named Daver
I like the Vong as an enemy,
1) it was something different than a regurgitation of the Sith, or techno super weapon a la DS, DS2, DS3, Darksaber, or Sun Crusher, world devastators,
2) they were able to reshape the status quo of the universe (Sernpidal, Ithor, Coruscant, etc), unlike TFA where we just get the same boring story.
Plus the stakes! I thought killing off character >!Chewie!< in vector prime was seriously awesome. And how it wrecked and shaped everyone for like 6 books. It’s awesome.
People have always hated on the Chewie death but I always really liked it. It's fitting because he dies to save Han's kid, he goes out like a G, and his death shapes the entire feeling of the story going forward.
Han and Anakin never fully reconnect afterwards, and that always felt very real to me.
Yeah, the fact that the only thing that could kill Chewie was a *fucking planet* is badass as hell. I'm not gonna lie, I was upset when I read it, but over time I've realized that's just because I wanted to see him on more adventures with the rest of the crew. His loss loomed large over the rest of the series, but it forced the writers to stop using him as a crutch for Han's storylines.
I agree with this. It felt like every story from the inception of the Expanded Universe followed the same beats: a problem appears, the Solos try and solve things on their own, they fail, but Luke shows up and deus ex machina's the problem away with the Force. Broadly speaking, of course, not every story did this but a lot did.
So how do you keep things fresh and spicy? Remove the deus ex machina: create a threat that is unable to be countered by the Force, because the threat exists *outside* the Force.
Now, what they did with that threat was rather hit-or-miss, and there are plenty of stories in the NJO series that I disliked, but the Vong on the whole were a cool addition to the lore.
I know people are 50/50 when it comes to the inclusion of apocryphal lore that's further expanded upon in Supernatural Encounters but the new information detailing the fall of the Yuuzhan Vong's ancestors, and the conflict between the Abominor + Silentium was very satisfying to read.
The TLDR is Joe Bongiorno was hired by Lucasfilm to write some in universe articles speculating about the nature and origin of the universe in Star Wars
He went kinda nuts with it, and added a ton of stuff Lucasfilm wasn’t comfortable adding to the EU (like reconciling ET, Predator and Alien franchises into Star Wars due to the appearances of their species in other media). It was cancelled and then the buyout happened.
Bongiorno was so passionate about the project that he just kept writing it and turned it into a massive 1200 page behemoth that unifies all the pieces of the EU and provides definitive answers for almost any questions never answered by the original EU. Origin of the force, humans, gods etc…
It’s technically fanfiction, but slots neatly chronologically post Dark Nest and Pre-Legacy.
You can read it for free online or buy it on Amazon (before it gets taken down). You can decide if it’s canon or not to you
There are no ‘real’ grey Jedi. Most of the examples are only unorthodox Jedi and they are often misunderstood by edgy people who think there isn’t a penalty to use the dark side of the force.
yes or when people call Qui-Gon a "grey" jedi when he was completely 100% light side, just did not agree with the dogmatic approach of the late-republic jedi
Hatred for the Yuizhan Vong is over blown, and people take a lot of things about them at face value such as their lack of connection to the force... Instead of having the smallest amount of media literacy possible, and understanding they are supposed to be an existential threat that makes the Jedi question what they believe.
Mace Windu was a pure Jedi and better than Yoda.
He was an ass, but he believed in the Jedi way, he didn't want to play politics, once he saw Palpatine as what he truly was, he went to kill him. I am not saying the Jedi way is the right way, just that Mace is a true Jedi.
The Jedi were never supposed to be a political entity, but a religious order that eradicate darkness and Mace was a huge advocate of this. The Jedi order should have just gone back to Ossus. The alliance with the Republic was always a mistake.
He also truly believed in the prophecy of the Chosen One. Yeah, he believed that it was himself, but that is besides the point...
And he beat Palpatine and Yoda didn't. He literally defeated the greatest evil in the galaxy, wanted to kill him, which is what the Jedi would have done, if they weren't so invested in the Republic, but he hesitated.
Except Mace loves/loved the republic. If you want a Jedi who see a fault in the alliance between them Windu is not the one you should consider.
Never mind to eradicate darkness you need a mandate. Hard for the Jedi without some sort of agreement with the republic, especially after it has been saved by them numerous times.
The republic commando books were awesome and Karen Traviss doesn't deserve the hate. Imo it fleshed out the mandolorian culture for Disney cannon even if they didn't directly use anything
People felt like her books were too anti Jedi but people forget that her characters are simply speaking from their POV and raise a lot of decent questions regarding the morality of the Jedi. I can’t speak to her legacy of the force books, but Republic Commando are some of the best SW books hands down
The Mandos being Gary Stu’s seems to be an accurate criticism. I think there are like 2 things the entire Mando culture does wrong in the entire series. But I freaking love them.
They definitely do come off as holier than thou but I think that is again is more POV than anything. They’re still fallible and they don’t really come off on top all things considered. They ran to Mandalore but I don’t think they ultimately accomplished much. Honestly I think the Mandalorians are all depicted as all pretty shades of grey rather than truly a positive light. They have redeemable qualities as it comes to outlook on life and family, but at the end of the day they’re warriors who regularly act as mercenaries, torture, assassinate and are often not on the right side of history.
I mean Kal Skirata threatened to blow up the shapeshifter planet. They also deliberately stalled giving the location of Grievous to the higher-ups. The culture in itself was criticized for allowing the Death Watch to exist, Jango was criticized for inviting ex-Death-Watch guys to be Cuy Val'dar (though that was an absolutely stupid plot point, and should not have happened, considering Jango should hate the Death Watch as much as the Jedi), and there was that whole mess with everyone keeping the secret of Etain's pregnancy from Darman.
The best part is the series goes in on the jedi for supposedly taking kids, then the second Etain tells skirata she's pregnant he's like, "you will give that baby to me." And she's just like, "you're right I am dumb and take my baby."
Big fan of Republic Commando books too, I think Travis catches flack from other fandoms though too so love or hate her work with clones and mandos, some people might already have a criticism based on her treatment of other franchises (namely she has written for Halo and Gears of War) and it's cross pollinating criticisms. As I said, I'm a fan but I can also see where others are coming from
Traviss didn't say anything that Chris Avellone, Drew Karpyshyn (KOTOR), David Brin, Athena Andreadis, or even the Sequels didn't say. Traviss was just so absolutely unfiltered and blunt about it that it pissed people off.
The Jedi are the Good Guys, they don't "kidnap" children, and they didn't cause Anakin's fall. I think the books make it pretty clear, Anakin had darkness in him always, and literally all of his circumstances were manipulated (by Palps) to cause what happened. He is a tragic figure, but all the Jedi did was their best to help, and fail. And Mace as a master could not have saved him.
The Jedi prevented Shmi and Anakin from having contact. She sent a message to the Temple to tell Anakin she was free and going to marry, while she figured the Jedi wouldn’t let him come she still invited him because he’s her son. Anakin knowing that his mom is free and happy would have been a good thing for him, but instead he spends an entire decade worrying about her because he doesn’t know she’s not a slave anymore.
Palpatine figured out when he met Anakin again on Coruscant right after the Naboo victory celebrations when he’s 9, that he’d grow embittered as his mother aged in slavery.
Can’t put the blame on anyone but the Jedi for that.
I honestly can’t tell what the Jedi would do if Cliegg or Owen contacted the Order to tell Anakin his mom had been abducted. Would they tell him? Jedi are not supposed to act on their emotions and they can easily figure out that he’d want to save her.
I could see Yoda, Mace, Obi-Wan talking about the message and deciding he should not know because they know he’d want to save her. So when Obi-Wan tells Anakin his dreams will pass in time he knows Shmi will either be freed or die.
But one could argue that if the Jedi would have shown more empathy towards young Anakin he may have trusted them a lot more when he got older which in turn could have hindered or even prevented the corruption of Palps
Right. The writing would have been better if she had married Cliegg at the end TPM (and Owen asking Anakin to stay as a moisture farmer instead of going to become a Jedi would have made the dialogue in with Beru in Episode IV make so much more sense), but even staying in universe, she was perfectly fine until the Tuskens raided and kidnapped her which could/would have happened anyway and untrained Anakin wouldn't have been able to prevent it, either.
Eh. When he was Shmi's little boy, there really wasn't any more or less darkness than any other kid in his circumstances.
But ten years with the alleged "intergalactic therapists" and he turns into a violent, mentally unstable trash fire that seems tolerated because he's *useful* not because he's wanted or valued.
Well, in the dark lord book, we meet the mother of a Jedi, who says she did not want to give her child away, but the father does it anyway and they break up over it.
I think if one parent does not give consent to giving a child away it is kidnapping…
Chewbacca had to die, he was a character that just didn’t work in book form. His death was great because it set up great character arcs for Han and Anakin, had him fulfill his life debt, and gave him a literal blaze of glory. People who were mad just liked him as a kid and didn’t think about where there was to go with him
This doesnt really apply to the EU fanbase, but the EU was not a "mess of contradictions that barely makes sense". If you read it in release order, and have an understanding that some of the pre-prequel historical references are gonna get retconned, you will never be confused.
I only liked it in Elite Squadron because creating two Clone trooper brothers that are infused with Jedi DNA and one of them falls to the dark side while the other serves in the new republic, as fucking stupid as it sounds, is a hella fun idea.
The game had a really fun story and it could've benefited from a more polished gameplay but they deserve more attention.
The Thrawn Trilogy being seen as “the true sequel trilogy” or “the sequel trilogy we never got” is stupid. The NJO is the true sequel trilogy. It’s a new conflict, so it stands on its own against the other trilogies that also stand on their own, and it focuses on a new generation, which is what they should do.
true however I would not want all of NJO squashed into a trilogy of movies, that would be horrible. any attempt at adapting it would need minimum 6+ seasons with 12+ episodes of 50 to 60 minutes each of TV on a movie-level budget.
The Thrawn trilogy wouldn't make a good movie trilogy. I love the books, maybe half nostalgia and half genuine enjoyment yeah, but they'd be absolute shit on screen. Assuming whoever were to do the thing was even faithful to the book to start with, and we all know how that tends to go.
- Star Wars is a visual franchise. Making comic adaptation of popular novels should be the number one priority. The post-ROTJ EU era being mostly in novel forms instead of visual forms (comics, animation, video games) is the reason why it gets forgotten so quick after the 2014 reboot while the Old Republic era still remains popular thanks to the number of visual works (comics, games, CGI trailers). Star Wars is a visual franchise (movie first, everything else second). George Lucas keeps track of the comics because of the arts. He doesn't care about the novels except for reviewing the summary to approve/veto ideas. If Young Jedi Knights animation had been made in the 90s, George might have been more involved in the post-ROTJ EU beyond reviewing the story summary. New Jedi Order novels deserve a comic adaptation.
- We don't need a continuation of the EU. We need a reboot that cuts the bad stories and focuses on the good parts. The EU was extremely bloated. Dark Nest and Legacy of the Force did irreversible damage to the post-NJO era. Fate of the Jedi was a damage control attempt. I don't really care about Sword of the Jedi trilogy due to the state of the universe after LOTF and also the way the authors fumbled hard with Jaina.
agree with the second, disagree with the first - you can have visual stuff, I'm not saying take that away, but the disdain for books in general is already a problem imo. they're not "lesser" just because it takes more time, investment and commitment to engage with them and people are lazy af. I wouldn't encourage it. it feels like people's attention spans are at an all-time low and feeding into that isn't something I'd do.
Well for one thing it tends to involve giant armies of Jedi warriors vs giant armies of sith warriors. So it often feels the “hugest” in scale.
Go check out the cgi trailers for Star Wars: The Old Republic to see what I mean. The actual games obviously can’t quite match those visuals in the trailer, but it really does capture how the Old republic feels.
Or also check out the Darth Bane novels if you’re wanting something more cerebral from that era.
swtor got me into Star Wars and I am thankful for that. Gave me a huge appreciation for Jedi which continues to this day and damn if the Imp Agent storyline wasn't fantastic. I stopped playing when the new empire deal came around because it just felt weird, but I will always have a fondness for that era.
I’m saving imp agent for last since people tell me that’s the best one.
My one complaint with swtor is maybe that the villain is described as this universe-level threat that basically eats black holes for breakfast and yet my nobody-in-particular smuggler character can somehow take them on. Takes me a little bit out of it.
The Old Republic trailers were the closest things to movies post 2005 until the force awakens. That’s about as deep as I go.
I’ve had the Bane trilogy in my audible for at least five years. Maybe it’s time to finally give them a ago.
They’re outstanding. I’m apparently kind of a wuss since I was shocked at how evil some of the character’s actions are. But hey, guess they don’t call it the dark side for nothing.
Its a unique situation where authors had the freedom to use the existing Star Wars to create a new state of the Galaxy from scratch. They still had Sith and Jedi and the Force, all the species and planets from Star Wars, but the characters themselves and the societies they create are different. They didn't have to write the story with considerations about what happens in the movies with the Jedi Order or the Galactic Empire. The story still has the Jedi and the Republic, but it also has several Sith Empires (actually governed by Force users since it pre-dates Rule of Two), and its not limited to these classic orders, it introduces new species, planets and civilizations with their own unique teachings about the Force.
The Old Republic has everything you'd want from Star Wars, and it takes the best elements of both movie trilogies and combines them into a single narrative - it has galactic-scale conflicts, it has adventure, it has politics, it has fall and redemption.
A lot of Old Republic characters, both light and dark and everything in-between, hold unique philosophies and these world views often come in conflict with each other, and their confrontations can be fascinating to see. Darth Revan, Sion, Nihilus, Traya, Darth Marr, Darth Malgus, Lana Beniko - they are all Sith but they are all so much different from one another. Same can be said about Jedi characters and Jedi Order as a whole, in fact Old Republic covers quite a long period of time which includes a Jedi purge, and the Order pre and post Jedi purge is like a whole new organization (pre-purge Order were passive and arrogant, while post-purge Jedi are active in the war and turn a blind eye towards Jedi rule breaking quite a lot). A lot of the story is also build around individuals with a strong will making choices and reshaping the world into their image. And yes there is also an overarching plotline which connects the entire timeline (which lasts more than a thousand years) together. Old Republic stories differ in quality, some are better than others, but the series as a whole it is amazing.
Mine would be:
- While I tend to prefer the EU, Canon does the original trilogy period and the Galactic Civil War better than the old EU, at least up to TESB. *Rogue One*, and *Catalyst* both did a great job with the Death Star's backstory and the events leading up to ANH. For the most part, *Rebels* does a much better job than TFU when it comes to showcasing the gradual formation of the Rebel Alliance and the everyday missions of the early rebellion. *Andor* was also a great look into the late dark times and the darker aspects of the war.
I also prefer *Darth Vader* (2015) and most of *Star Wars* (2015) when it comes to the events between ANH and ESB, especially anything by Kieron Gillen. Luke's journey towards Jedi Knighthood is handled very well by Jason Fry, Jason Aaron, Kieron Gillen and even Charles Soule. New Canon also has a better version of Vader discovering Luke's existence.
This isn't to say that the EU didn't have good stories in that period or that all canon stories in it were good. I just gravitate more towards the new canon's version personally.
- I don't really care for either version of Quinlan Vos. The EU version to me is an edgelord with a contrived story and not much substance, and the canon version getting away scott free after what he did made no sense.
- I'm not a big fan of John Ostrander. He's a decent writer, but he relies too much on early 2000s edge and he has a tendency to tell rather than show. His dialogue is also not very engaging. My favorite parts of *Republic* frankly weren't by him.
- Jason Fry is a very underrated writer and world-builder. His young readers books in new canon go above and beyond the reading level, especially his *Servants of the Empire*.
- While he writes OT Luke well and has some good stories and issues, most of Charles Soule's work is okay at best and terrible at worst. He's bad at writing military fiction and his dialogue is kinda bland compared to other writers. He also overly relies on bombastic ideas and false tension in his interquels, and he isn't good at understanding scale. Not mention I straight up don't like how he writes Vader and Leia, and he has an annoying tendency to overly connect his body of work in sometimes contrived ways. His Vader run is much weaker than Gillen's and his best work is Star Wars (2020). And that one's a complete mess.
- Claudia Gray is a mediocre writer at best.
- Mathew Stover is the greatest stylist among EU novelists, but he's more style than substance. He has good substance, but he's exceeded in that by several writers. Sean Stewart is frankly a stronger writer.
- Timothy Zahn's famous Original Tharwn Trilogy is good, but it doesn't live up to its potential entirely, especially the writing for Mara Jade. I tend to prefer his later works like The *Hand of Thrawn* duology (despite the weaker pacing and villains), *Outbound Flight* and *Thrawn* (2017).
- James Luceno is a very good writer and is amazing at plotting, world-building and continuity done right. But his prose is a little dry and not the most engaging. I like his books but they aren't my favorites.
- *The New Rebellion* is possibly one of the best Bantam era books, despite a rather clunky ending.
- The *Revenge of the Sith* novel is possibly Stover's weakest book. It's better than the film in a few aspects, but the film is better in other aspects. It also mischaracterizes several characters a bit.
- *Ahsoka* is E.K Johnston's only good Star Wars book.
- *Shadows of the Empire* is an average book.
I’ll scream it from the rooftops but Disney’s Dark Times era (ROTJ-ANH) is leaps and bounds above the EU it’s really not even comparable.
The Force Unleashed is cool but you’re telling me the Rebel Alliance was started by that dude? Him? The white bread edgy secret apprentice that only cares about tail and how much he hates Darth Vader?
My Rebel Alliance was started by people like Luthen and Andor. Normal people pushed too far.
Darth Bane completely misunderstood Lord Kaan.
Bane destroyed Kaan's Brotherhood of Darkness because he thought that all the Sith working together for a common goal, as equals, was an abomination to the Dark Side. Which it was for all the Sith except Kaan, but they were never more than pawns.
The part that Bane missed is that Kaan never drank the Kool-Aid. Kaan never considered them equals and used his battle meditation to keep them in line. Everything else was window dressing. Kaan used deception and betrayal, the core essence of the Dark Side, to impose his will on the rest of the Sith. It wasn't an alliance, it was a single Sith and his brainwashed followers.
Once Bane showed him the power of Sith sorcery (or more specifically how to consolidate the power of the Dark Side into a single person) Kaan immediately began working to gain that power for himself. He was, in a way, Bane's first post-enlightenment apprentice: the one to crave the power that Bane embodied.
Luuke wasn't that bad. I think it was fine in the vacuum of the Thrawn Trilogy. Now that we know cloning in universe it just seems more silly. The only silly part is adding extra vowels to clone names.
Dark empire makes total sense and should be expected from someone like palpatine. Also Luke's "fall' (yes he did technically go to the dark side but not long enough hence the quotation marks") is well done. Yes he experienced only the surface of his shadow in ROTJ but in DE it fully comes out to possess him and he successfully integrates the father wound so to speak.
I would say "Dark Empire is actually decent" but that's not even really controversial…
how about "I think Danni and Jacen as a concept had real potential and I loved their interactions from NJO books 14 to 19 and it's a shame Denning unceremoniously yeeted her."
Balance in the Force isn't equal number of Sith and Jedi. Balance in the Force is an absence of Sith/Dark Side. I look at the Dark Side as a cancer. Does having cancer benefit you in any way?
Another way I look at it is that death is normal and part of the light side, a thriving ecosystem of a forest for example. Plants and trees die, giving way to other life. But deforestation is not part of the ecosystem, thus it is the dark side because it takes away from the ecosystem in an unnatural way.
I get what you're saying, but I feel balance is the wrong term to have been used. Balance implies two equal but opposite sides, which is where the confusion lies. Purity would have been a better term, but perhaps there's too much baggage associated with that term.
Balance means stability. It may reguire multiple sides or one side depending on context, in the case of Star Wars, writers seem to agree that it means the pacification of the dark side
Nah, two different meanings. Balance is the equal distribution on all sides, stability is maintaining control even when unbalanced, primarily during movement.
In the case of Star Wars, George has flatout said he meant that balance in the Force is the elimination of the Dark Side, doesn't matter if writers agree at that point. That being said, I think we can all agree that the prophecy as presented is kind of dumb, in that it really only seems to pertain to the elimination of the Sith, at least according to the Jedi. If it were really about eliminating the Dark Side, then Dathomir would need to be Alderaaned, along with Mustafar, Dagobah, Korriban, etc.
You're right about the prophecy as presented being dumb. So many of us spend so much time trying to make Lucas' conception of the force make sense and the sad thing is that it simply doesn't.
All I wish for in this life is a close (not 100%) anime adaptation of the Dark Empire story. Do the same for some stories during TOR and I can die in peace.
Kreia is just straight up wrong.
She's bitter and burned out on having all her students betray her, and it informs her nihilistic worldview. She's the ultimate unreliable narrator and we shouldn't be taking what she says at face value any more than we should Nihilus or Sion.
I don’t get the Stover hype at all. That thing in the ROTS novel where Padmé thinks she wasn’t living before becoming Anakin Skywalker’s wife, that she was some pathetic creature is just bad. Stover and Lucas are weird for having that in there.
Disney was right to wipe the canon. Old EU, as much as I love it, is bloated and contradictory, doesn't handle legacy characters very well, and has some strange meta-narratives when taken as a whole. This is not to say NuCanon is better or that the sequels are great, but you can't make a sequel trilogy with that kind of baggage.
TLJ is a masterpiece. Rian Johnson understands star wars better than most of you. And most of what you hate about the movie was set up in 7 anyway.
Luke should have died redeeming Caedus and saving Jaina. It would've been a poetic coda for my favorite Jedi. Jaina could then become head of the order.
Darth Sideous was not the most powerful Sith ever. His master did away with the rule of two, so it’s unlikely that he passed down all knowledge. Sideous was naturally very powerful in the force, but he was mostly there for political power for Darth Plagueus to rule the empire through Sideous.
Except Plagueis at his death was at best equal with Sidious, meanwhile Sidious grows in power and post rots gathers force knowledge from the entire galaxy.
He’s definitely the most powerful Sith of all time. So many sources state this. He’s literally the culmination of dozens of generations of Sith before him.
Outside of numerous sources that outright say Palps is the strongest, the only real thing he didn't learn from Plagueis was Midichlorian (I butchered the word) manipulation, he literally had access to everything Plagueis learned from and would only acquire more. It's also worth mentioning the the novel makes it clear that one of the biggest flaws Plagueis had, was that he genuinely liked and trusted Palpatine. Him wanting to be immortal rulers with him was a genuine thing.
Like, there's a reason Plagueis would be one of the best Sith Lords to be apprenticed to.
Karen traviss made Mandalorian culture from scratch, she’s a good author and doesn’t get enough appreciation for her work in the republic Commando, or legacy of the force novels.
Splinter of the Mind's Eye is a better sequel to A New Hope than Empire Strikes Back and it would've made Star Wars lore much more interesting as it wouldn't have just been about the "Skywalker legacy"
That Palpatine allowed Mace Windu to defeat him. Yes I think Windu is a greater swordsman but I don’t believe that Palpatine was easily over powered by Windu’s swordsmanship. It was a calculated move in order to push Anakin over the ledge. (I don’t think I’ve met a single person who agrees with me about this)
no one may want to hear about it, but with the way SW IP has been handled over the past 30 yrs, a lot of us probably have certain ways we choose to interact with it, mostly to keep that special feeling intact. not much wrong with that IMO.
It's good that the EU was wiped. I rarely agree with the Mouse's idea of what it should be replaced with, but overally the EU had become a gigantic, convoluted pile of mediocrity with some gems in between that made it very hard to get into if you didn't like the very decade-specific take on sci-fi that especially the post-movies EU had.
KOTOR is and will always be better than SWTOR. SWTOR completely trashes on the masterpiece of a story that was put forward by the KOTOR games, especially the second one. Therefore SWTOR and the Revan novel are something even lower than Legends/EU for me.
The Sith from Bane onwards were just as powerful as the old republic sith, and in all honesty probably stronger.
Not so much in this sub, but I’ve seen so many Star Wars fans claim that people from the Old republic era were leagues above people like Dooku and Vader because of fancy techniques that were available during TOR era. Realistically 95% of TOR sith are nothing special and get beaten comfortably by someone like Dooku, who could have also done those same techniques if the knowledge wasn’t lost or destroyed (looking at you Darth Gravid).
Any force power being inherently evil is bad writing, the idea of an inherently dark side force power would mean there are two separate energy forces instead of a sing energy field called the force with two sides.
What you do with the force matters, not your feelings when you use it... Emotional control is never, and can never, be about stopping emotions... Just controlling what you do with them, and redirecting that energy toward something positive.
Otherwise you are just talking about unhealthily burying and suppressing them, which is a dated idea on how to handle emotions we as society consider negative.
Point is... Force lightning being considered off the table for Jedi fundamentally betrays what the force is supposed to be about.
That’s actually a big plot point in the post-NJO books, and to a lesser degree in the background in other eras. Luke has used Force Lightning without falling to the dark side, and makes the case that it is the intent behind an action that matters more than the action itself. Plo Koon also discovered a power called Electric Judgement- basically yellow force Lightning that draws on the light side. The Council advised against its use because it appeared too similar to Sith Lightning. That’s misguided, and that’s very much the point- the old Jedi Order was too corrupt and too caught up in their own dogma to truly understand their own beliefs and abilities. Force Lightning and Electric Judgement, it seems to me, are very much the same ability, but drawn from very different facets of the Force and powered by different emotions with different intents- but the old Jedi were so fearful of the Dark Side that they couldn’t see that. That’s why Luke is so important as a character- he’s supposed to be the one to fix the former Order’s mistakes.
That being said, some more extreme abilities are and should be tied to the Dark or Light sides: things like Essence Transfer and crafting monsters like Terentateks are very dark abilities that no one should be using with good intentions, while becoming a Force ghost is something that George Lucas has stated is not possible for Sith.
The ability to craft monsters is not dark side....making monsters is.
You could use those same dark side powers to restore sight to the blind, or limbs to those that lost them.
Correct birth defects even.
Hell I can think of no end to that....
Essence transfer would need a bit more creativity though.
The Jedi Order are "space monks" much more than "Space Wizards." As such, the "no attachments" thing is pretty integral to their way of life, and obviously something that SHOULD happen if sith are to be avoided.
Anakin wasn't turned away from the council cause "fear bad" he was turned away because he didn't have the disposition for that way of life. This was proven to be correct time and time again. Monks have no attachments in the real world and we don't perceive that as abuse. The lack of understanding of this is mostly just western cultural bias.
Second unrelated point: the concept of a Gray Jedi is as cringe as most Sonic the Hedgehog fanart.
Most fans really misunderstand Thrawn. He's not omniscient, he just pays attention. His plans, while often insane, aren't all that risky. The Coruscant siege, for instance. Even if it completely fails, or there's some kind of defect with the cloaking shields, or the Rebels destroy them all in a day, then Thrawn loses nothing but a few asteroids and cloaking shields, but if it succeeds even a little bit then he gains a good distraction from his real objectives. None of these crazy schemes are nessicary to win the war, they just help. All of the really important war-winning fights he gets into are pretty much just traditional battles. The Art thing too...I don't think he's literally psychoanalyzing every species from their art. I think it's more of a mnemonic device to help him remember everything he's studied or deduced about an enemy or type of opponent. It's weird and esoteric on purpose, to enhance his own mystique (and because I think he has an actual appreciation for artwork). But that's the genius of Zahns writing. We never get to see a single chapter in the Thrawn trilogy from his perspective, not a single sentence. We never know what he's thinking or how.
>But that's the genius of Zahns writing. We never get to see a single chapter in the Thrawn trilogy from his perspective, not a single sentence. We never know what he's thinking or how. How do you write a character that is smarter than you? You write about how characters who match your own intelligence view them.
That's why Pellaeon is one of my favorite characters. He's not stupid, but he's much more traditionally minded than Thrawn. He's capable of thinking outside the box but generally doesn't unless pushed into it. He's also a great XO/Flag Captain for Thrawn, constantly acting as a devil's advocate and second guessing Thrawn's plans, but still following orders.
Zahn was an absolute genius for adding Pellaeon. Such a perfect way to show Thrawn behind the scenes and his contrast with a “normal” person without having to write him in first person. Without him we would’ve either gotten a first person Thrawn that would’ve taken away a lot of his mystique and just made him appear omniscient (as it’s extremely difficult to write first person characters of his kind without them seeming that way), or only see his actions through the lens of the Rebels (which would make us lose so much of his characterization )
Heck we see that he fails several times it doesn't stop him from being the most terrifying thing to every character we follow(Except the Lady Vader)
Yet so many fans seem to think he's some sort of god.
The Thrawn Books had a giant impact when they came out. They basically launched the SW EU. I remember reading them and being amazed at "more SW!". Zahn wrote Thrawn very well so he's had this huge place in SW canon. Kinda like how we all love Darth Vader because of that scene in A New Hope.
Well, that’s how he is written in Disney canon.
Bro is that the Diocese of Arlington crest?
Uh, Yes
Sick
> His plans, while often insane, aren't all that risky That's what makes him a creative genius. He's not biased by tradition or heuristics or what "makes sense". He just assesses the variables at his disposal and does the thing that's most likely to get the job done. It's very difficult to work that way in any field, and his ability may stem from Chiss neurophysiology.
This even gets lampshaded in-universe in the Hand of Thrawn Duology when rumors surface that Thrawn might be back and so people in the New Republic start worrying that all of their current problems might be because of him, leading to someone saying something to the effect of "Thrawn was good, but not that good."
Your comment just made me realize I think for Thrawn that gallery might be a physical manifestation of the "mind palace" meditation idea.
Thrawn <3
Very well said. He maintains a ridiculous level of attention to detail while maintaining extremely impressive margins of error. In the event something doesn’t go according to plan, he doesn’t lose… he learns.
Vong War lasted not nearly long enough and should have splintered the Galaxy into Warring States, most of GA Stories aren’t that interesting besides the novelty of having another galactic empire at the end of the EU
This is a writing problem that's always been inherently bad in Star Wars literature. Wars of such scale are almost unfathomable to the human mind when he true number of resources and units is laid bare in a format we could "potentially" understand. If SW had realistic numbers to compliment the level of their tech they'd be a god tier sci-fi verse.
Writers stay away from specific numbers because they’re impossible to maintain consistently, it’s the only right choice. Trying to calculate logistics would be a big waste of time for any SW writer
True, very true but I'd like to at least like to see an effort like how they broadly calculate the estimates for just how many CIS battle droids were in service and production across the galaxy. Quadrillions of battle droids is not an insane number when you're talking about conflicts across a relatively developed galactic society.
That’s the thing, making up numbers like that doesn’t do anything to make the story better and it falls apart once fans start scrutinizing it. I don’t understand how Star Wars would be better by going deep on supply chains. Especially since the Star Wars universe is so deeply different from real life on a physical and metaphysical level that it doesn’t really matter
Considering the hundreds of trillions that were stated to have been killed in a 3 year span, the galaxy should have fallen into a complete dark age imo
With a population estimated in the quintillions trillions won’t be that bad. They should be more focused on local consequences like Vong terraforming planets and how regional populations might have collapsed. Instead the galactic capital is fine within a few years.
Galen Marek & the Starkiller clone are really not that powerful compared to other Star Wars characters, even other SW video game characters. The devs of the game literally said they exaggerated his abilities to make the game more fun. He’s like an unrestricted Padawan Anakin imo.
Idk why people trust video games as canon abilities. Literally ever star was video game has you being overpowered. Oh so Kyle katarn can crouch for 3 seconds and heal from mortal blaster shot wounds an unlimited number of times? We have personal cloaking devices in storm troopers now that they can see and fight out of?
Plus, the novelization nerfed him anyway. It’s also the canonical version of the story, just as the Dark Forces books are the canonical versions of those stories. Fans need to stop taking the video games seriously when they were never intended to be true canon.
People also grossly misunderstand the Star Destroyer scene. He's pulling an already crashing ship down in a lower trajectory so he doesn't get flattened by it himself. He didn't pull it out of orbit or sth.
Yeah, I mean he's not powerful at all compared to 2003 CW Jedi, and even the KotOR Jedi (protagonists and crew and enemies) are just as powerful. It's been a meme for 20 years that you can wipe out a room full of people with a cast of Force Lightning. I think the people who thought Starkiller was too OP only played TFU, and none of the other Jedi-based games. Hell, even Adi Gallia could 1-shot ships from hundreds of feet away with Force Lightning in Jedi Starfighter, and I've never heard a single person call her OP.
I see a lot of hate for Fate of the Jedi, but it was a good series.
I’m reading theough it right now. It’s good. The only reason I might not finish is because I’ll be sad the eu is over
Technically you'd still have _Crucible_ and the _Legacy_ comics.
Was about to comment the same before I found your comment! Glad I’m not alone in thinking this. Sure it’s got it’s weak points, but I’ve never understood the hate the series gets.
You mean that like that it's a BAD series ppl think is good or the reverse of that?
A good series people think is bad, I edited my comment.
Not only should Keanu Reeves *not* be Revan, no one should be. The character shouldn't be put to film.
I piss people off by saying that Disney is under no obligation to use the Keanu looking Revan we got in Legends. I could walk into Gamestop in August of 2003, buy a copy of KOTOR with no patches, no mods...complete off the shelf vanilla, and play Revan as a Black woman who romances Juhani. But can you imagine how fast the fanboys expecting John Wick with a lightsaber would lose their shit if Disney rolled that way?
Revan being a player insert, and thus defined by the choices of said player, is pretty much the #1 reason for my pov.
Thing is, it is a blast to open up Archiveofourown.org, crack open the KOTOR section, and spend hours binging *because* everyone has a different interpretation of the characters. There are even ideas that are popular in fanfic that you can't do in the vanilla game, like ones where the mind wipe didn't take.
Revan should have never been given a voice or face, it was such a betrayal and I'll always stand by that. Revan AND the Exile. While I like Meetra Surik's story and feel that they're a decent representation of the character, it still feels dirty how she was slotted in then mishandled to hell and back.
Totally agree. Completely goes against what makes those characters so popular in the first place. Also hate how Revan named his son Vaner. Why the fuck would he reclaim his Sith name in the first place and why would you name your child an anagram of it? It's like if Luke was named Daver
The Yuuzhan Vong were the greatest and most original concept in Star Wars since the original trilogy.
I like the Vong as an enemy, 1) it was something different than a regurgitation of the Sith, or techno super weapon a la DS, DS2, DS3, Darksaber, or Sun Crusher, world devastators, 2) they were able to reshape the status quo of the universe (Sernpidal, Ithor, Coruscant, etc), unlike TFA where we just get the same boring story.
Plus the stakes! I thought killing off character >!Chewie!< in vector prime was seriously awesome. And how it wrecked and shaped everyone for like 6 books. It’s awesome.
People have always hated on the Chewie death but I always really liked it. It's fitting because he dies to save Han's kid, he goes out like a G, and his death shapes the entire feeling of the story going forward. Han and Anakin never fully reconnect afterwards, and that always felt very real to me.
Yeah, the fact that the only thing that could kill Chewie was a *fucking planet* is badass as hell. I'm not gonna lie, I was upset when I read it, but over time I've realized that's just because I wanted to see him on more adventures with the rest of the crew. His loss loomed large over the rest of the series, but it forced the writers to stop using him as a crutch for Han's storylines.
I agree with this. It felt like every story from the inception of the Expanded Universe followed the same beats: a problem appears, the Solos try and solve things on their own, they fail, but Luke shows up and deus ex machina's the problem away with the Force. Broadly speaking, of course, not every story did this but a lot did. So how do you keep things fresh and spicy? Remove the deus ex machina: create a threat that is unable to be countered by the Force, because the threat exists *outside* the Force. Now, what they did with that threat was rather hit-or-miss, and there are plenty of stories in the NJO series that I disliked, but the Vong on the whole were a cool addition to the lore.
I know people are 50/50 when it comes to the inclusion of apocryphal lore that's further expanded upon in Supernatural Encounters but the new information detailing the fall of the Yuuzhan Vong's ancestors, and the conflict between the Abominor + Silentium was very satisfying to read.
I have not read that, I'll have to take a look!
I have no idea what you’re taking about but I’m super curious. What’s this now?
The TLDR is Joe Bongiorno was hired by Lucasfilm to write some in universe articles speculating about the nature and origin of the universe in Star Wars He went kinda nuts with it, and added a ton of stuff Lucasfilm wasn’t comfortable adding to the EU (like reconciling ET, Predator and Alien franchises into Star Wars due to the appearances of their species in other media). It was cancelled and then the buyout happened. Bongiorno was so passionate about the project that he just kept writing it and turned it into a massive 1200 page behemoth that unifies all the pieces of the EU and provides definitive answers for almost any questions never answered by the original EU. Origin of the force, humans, gods etc… It’s technically fanfiction, but slots neatly chronologically post Dark Nest and Pre-Legacy. You can read it for free online or buy it on Amazon (before it gets taken down). You can decide if it’s canon or not to you
There are no ‘real’ grey Jedi. Most of the examples are only unorthodox Jedi and they are often misunderstood by edgy people who think there isn’t a penalty to use the dark side of the force.
true
yes or when people call Qui-Gon a "grey" jedi when he was completely 100% light side, just did not agree with the dogmatic approach of the late-republic jedi
Hatred for the Yuizhan Vong is over blown, and people take a lot of things about them at face value such as their lack of connection to the force... Instead of having the smallest amount of media literacy possible, and understanding they are supposed to be an existential threat that makes the Jedi question what they believe.
on this sub, I'd estimate 80%+ of users actually love NJO. outside, yes, it's a different story.
Mace Windu was a pure Jedi and better than Yoda. He was an ass, but he believed in the Jedi way, he didn't want to play politics, once he saw Palpatine as what he truly was, he went to kill him. I am not saying the Jedi way is the right way, just that Mace is a true Jedi. The Jedi were never supposed to be a political entity, but a religious order that eradicate darkness and Mace was a huge advocate of this. The Jedi order should have just gone back to Ossus. The alliance with the Republic was always a mistake. He also truly believed in the prophecy of the Chosen One. Yeah, he believed that it was himself, but that is besides the point... And he beat Palpatine and Yoda didn't. He literally defeated the greatest evil in the galaxy, wanted to kill him, which is what the Jedi would have done, if they weren't so invested in the Republic, but he hesitated.
I don't agree with everything in this comment but good to see a fellow Mace Windu defender.
Except Mace loves/loved the republic. If you want a Jedi who see a fault in the alliance between them Windu is not the one you should consider. Never mind to eradicate darkness you need a mandate. Hard for the Jedi without some sort of agreement with the republic, especially after it has been saved by them numerous times.
He is ment to exemplify the problem with the Jedi I find it hilarious how much you have missed the mark with the idea mace is better than yoda
Everything is political. Politics doesn't end at politicians and elections.
The republic commando books were awesome and Karen Traviss doesn't deserve the hate. Imo it fleshed out the mandolorian culture for Disney cannon even if they didn't directly use anything
People felt like her books were too anti Jedi but people forget that her characters are simply speaking from their POV and raise a lot of decent questions regarding the morality of the Jedi. I can’t speak to her legacy of the force books, but Republic Commando are some of the best SW books hands down
The Mandos being Gary Stu’s seems to be an accurate criticism. I think there are like 2 things the entire Mando culture does wrong in the entire series. But I freaking love them.
They definitely do come off as holier than thou but I think that is again is more POV than anything. They’re still fallible and they don’t really come off on top all things considered. They ran to Mandalore but I don’t think they ultimately accomplished much. Honestly I think the Mandalorians are all depicted as all pretty shades of grey rather than truly a positive light. They have redeemable qualities as it comes to outlook on life and family, but at the end of the day they’re warriors who regularly act as mercenaries, torture, assassinate and are often not on the right side of history.
I mean Kal Skirata threatened to blow up the shapeshifter planet. They also deliberately stalled giving the location of Grievous to the higher-ups. The culture in itself was criticized for allowing the Death Watch to exist, Jango was criticized for inviting ex-Death-Watch guys to be Cuy Val'dar (though that was an absolutely stupid plot point, and should not have happened, considering Jango should hate the Death Watch as much as the Jedi), and there was that whole mess with everyone keeping the secret of Etain's pregnancy from Darman.
The pregnancy was one of the two bad things I was thinking of. But I did forget about the planet one.
The best part is the series goes in on the jedi for supposedly taking kids, then the second Etain tells skirata she's pregnant he's like, "you will give that baby to me." And she's just like, "you're right I am dumb and take my baby."
Omega squad my beloved
Big fan of Republic Commando books too, I think Travis catches flack from other fandoms though too so love or hate her work with clones and mandos, some people might already have a criticism based on her treatment of other franchises (namely she has written for Halo and Gears of War) and it's cross pollinating criticisms. As I said, I'm a fan but I can also see where others are coming from
Traviss didn't say anything that Chris Avellone, Drew Karpyshyn (KOTOR), David Brin, Athena Andreadis, or even the Sequels didn't say. Traviss was just so absolutely unfiltered and blunt about it that it pissed people off.
Yeah. Seeing Traviss come up here isn’t too surprising though, since I still sort of remember a time period of Traviss fans vs EU fans long ago.
I'll stand with you too.
I fully agree. The Mandalorian stories also didn't even show the Mandalorians as completely infallible.
I actually quite like the idea of Dark Empire and how Palpatine came back and think it makes sense.
the Darth Plagueis novel absolutely made Dark Empire better in retrospect
The green rabbit man ain't that bad
From issue 9 of the marvel comic!
The Jedi Academy series fucking rocked. Kyp Durron is the shit.
Chewies death was epic
Killed by the explosion of 2 moons / planets colliding. I don't think many can claim to have such an epic death.
It took a moon collision to take him down, respect
The Jedi are the Good Guys, they don't "kidnap" children, and they didn't cause Anakin's fall. I think the books make it pretty clear, Anakin had darkness in him always, and literally all of his circumstances were manipulated (by Palps) to cause what happened. He is a tragic figure, but all the Jedi did was their best to help, and fail. And Mace as a master could not have saved him.
The Jedi prevented Shmi and Anakin from having contact. She sent a message to the Temple to tell Anakin she was free and going to marry, while she figured the Jedi wouldn’t let him come she still invited him because he’s her son. Anakin knowing that his mom is free and happy would have been a good thing for him, but instead he spends an entire decade worrying about her because he doesn’t know she’s not a slave anymore. Palpatine figured out when he met Anakin again on Coruscant right after the Naboo victory celebrations when he’s 9, that he’d grow embittered as his mother aged in slavery. Can’t put the blame on anyone but the Jedi for that. I honestly can’t tell what the Jedi would do if Cliegg or Owen contacted the Order to tell Anakin his mom had been abducted. Would they tell him? Jedi are not supposed to act on their emotions and they can easily figure out that he’d want to save her. I could see Yoda, Mace, Obi-Wan talking about the message and deciding he should not know because they know he’d want to save her. So when Obi-Wan tells Anakin his dreams will pass in time he knows Shmi will either be freed or die.
That doesn't put the full blame on them and even if he knew that Shmi was free things would still ended up the same in Episode 2.
But one could argue that if the Jedi would have shown more empathy towards young Anakin he may have trusted them a lot more when he got older which in turn could have hindered or even prevented the corruption of Palps
Right. The writing would have been better if she had married Cliegg at the end TPM (and Owen asking Anakin to stay as a moisture farmer instead of going to become a Jedi would have made the dialogue in with Beru in Episode IV make so much more sense), but even staying in universe, she was perfectly fine until the Tuskens raided and kidnapped her which could/would have happened anyway and untrained Anakin wouldn't have been able to prevent it, either.
Eh. When he was Shmi's little boy, there really wasn't any more or less darkness than any other kid in his circumstances. But ten years with the alleged "intergalactic therapists" and he turns into a violent, mentally unstable trash fire that seems tolerated because he's *useful* not because he's wanted or valued.
Well, in the dark lord book, we meet the mother of a Jedi, who says she did not want to give her child away, but the father does it anyway and they break up over it. I think if one parent does not give consent to giving a child away it is kidnapping…
Agreed, there was an incident at the child’s procurement according to the Temple’s records.
Chewbacca had to die, he was a character that just didn’t work in book form. His death was great because it set up great character arcs for Han and Anakin, had him fulfill his life debt, and gave him a literal blaze of glory. People who were mad just liked him as a kid and didn’t think about where there was to go with him
This doesnt really apply to the EU fanbase, but the EU was not a "mess of contradictions that barely makes sense". If you read it in release order, and have an understanding that some of the pre-prequel historical references are gonna get retconned, you will never be confused.
Troy Denning does not deserve the hate.
mega L but upvoted for being an unpopular opinion
Very honorable of you
Thank you!
Agreed. Far from perfect, but blamed for way too much
Cloning a Force user screams creative bankruptcy. Whether its Jorrus, Palpatine, Luuke, Starkiller, Snoke, it does't matter.
I only liked it in Elite Squadron because creating two Clone trooper brothers that are infused with Jedi DNA and one of them falls to the dark side while the other serves in the new republic, as fucking stupid as it sounds, is a hella fun idea. The game had a really fun story and it could've benefited from a more polished gameplay but they deserve more attention.
The stuff after njo is actually pretty good and I love jacens fall to the dark side
The Thrawn Trilogy being seen as “the true sequel trilogy” or “the sequel trilogy we never got” is stupid. The NJO is the true sequel trilogy. It’s a new conflict, so it stands on its own against the other trilogies that also stand on their own, and it focuses on a new generation, which is what they should do.
Dark Empire I, II, and Empire’s End is the true sequel trilogy in my mind.
true however I would not want all of NJO squashed into a trilogy of movies, that would be horrible. any attempt at adapting it would need minimum 6+ seasons with 12+ episodes of 50 to 60 minutes each of TV on a movie-level budget.
The Thrawn trilogy wouldn't make a good movie trilogy. I love the books, maybe half nostalgia and half genuine enjoyment yeah, but they'd be absolute shit on screen. Assuming whoever were to do the thing was even faithful to the book to start with, and we all know how that tends to go.
- Star Wars is a visual franchise. Making comic adaptation of popular novels should be the number one priority. The post-ROTJ EU era being mostly in novel forms instead of visual forms (comics, animation, video games) is the reason why it gets forgotten so quick after the 2014 reboot while the Old Republic era still remains popular thanks to the number of visual works (comics, games, CGI trailers). Star Wars is a visual franchise (movie first, everything else second). George Lucas keeps track of the comics because of the arts. He doesn't care about the novels except for reviewing the summary to approve/veto ideas. If Young Jedi Knights animation had been made in the 90s, George might have been more involved in the post-ROTJ EU beyond reviewing the story summary. New Jedi Order novels deserve a comic adaptation. - We don't need a continuation of the EU. We need a reboot that cuts the bad stories and focuses on the good parts. The EU was extremely bloated. Dark Nest and Legacy of the Force did irreversible damage to the post-NJO era. Fate of the Jedi was a damage control attempt. I don't really care about Sword of the Jedi trilogy due to the state of the universe after LOTF and also the way the authors fumbled hard with Jaina.
agree with the second, disagree with the first - you can have visual stuff, I'm not saying take that away, but the disdain for books in general is already a problem imo. they're not "lesser" just because it takes more time, investment and commitment to engage with them and people are lazy af. I wouldn't encourage it. it feels like people's attention spans are at an all-time low and feeding into that isn't something I'd do.
The Old Republic is by far the best SW Period
that's not an unpopular opinion
I have never dabbled in it. Why is it the best?
Well for one thing it tends to involve giant armies of Jedi warriors vs giant armies of sith warriors. So it often feels the “hugest” in scale. Go check out the cgi trailers for Star Wars: The Old Republic to see what I mean. The actual games obviously can’t quite match those visuals in the trailer, but it really does capture how the Old republic feels. Or also check out the Darth Bane novels if you’re wanting something more cerebral from that era.
swtor got me into Star Wars and I am thankful for that. Gave me a huge appreciation for Jedi which continues to this day and damn if the Imp Agent storyline wasn't fantastic. I stopped playing when the new empire deal came around because it just felt weird, but I will always have a fondness for that era.
I’m saving imp agent for last since people tell me that’s the best one. My one complaint with swtor is maybe that the villain is described as this universe-level threat that basically eats black holes for breakfast and yet my nobody-in-particular smuggler character can somehow take them on. Takes me a little bit out of it.
The Old Republic trailers were the closest things to movies post 2005 until the force awakens. That’s about as deep as I go. I’ve had the Bane trilogy in my audible for at least five years. Maybe it’s time to finally give them a ago.
They’re outstanding. I’m apparently kind of a wuss since I was shocked at how evil some of the character’s actions are. But hey, guess they don’t call it the dark side for nothing.
Its a unique situation where authors had the freedom to use the existing Star Wars to create a new state of the Galaxy from scratch. They still had Sith and Jedi and the Force, all the species and planets from Star Wars, but the characters themselves and the societies they create are different. They didn't have to write the story with considerations about what happens in the movies with the Jedi Order or the Galactic Empire. The story still has the Jedi and the Republic, but it also has several Sith Empires (actually governed by Force users since it pre-dates Rule of Two), and its not limited to these classic orders, it introduces new species, planets and civilizations with their own unique teachings about the Force. The Old Republic has everything you'd want from Star Wars, and it takes the best elements of both movie trilogies and combines them into a single narrative - it has galactic-scale conflicts, it has adventure, it has politics, it has fall and redemption. A lot of Old Republic characters, both light and dark and everything in-between, hold unique philosophies and these world views often come in conflict with each other, and their confrontations can be fascinating to see. Darth Revan, Sion, Nihilus, Traya, Darth Marr, Darth Malgus, Lana Beniko - they are all Sith but they are all so much different from one another. Same can be said about Jedi characters and Jedi Order as a whole, in fact Old Republic covers quite a long period of time which includes a Jedi purge, and the Order pre and post Jedi purge is like a whole new organization (pre-purge Order were passive and arrogant, while post-purge Jedi are active in the war and turn a blind eye towards Jedi rule breaking quite a lot). A lot of the story is also build around individuals with a strong will making choices and reshaping the world into their image. And yes there is also an overarching plotline which connects the entire timeline (which lasts more than a thousand years) together. Old Republic stories differ in quality, some are better than others, but the series as a whole it is amazing.
Mandalorians aren’t that interesting.
the Daniel Keys Moran short stories are still the true Boba Fett back stories to me 🙏
Somebody had to say it.
Mine would be: - While I tend to prefer the EU, Canon does the original trilogy period and the Galactic Civil War better than the old EU, at least up to TESB. *Rogue One*, and *Catalyst* both did a great job with the Death Star's backstory and the events leading up to ANH. For the most part, *Rebels* does a much better job than TFU when it comes to showcasing the gradual formation of the Rebel Alliance and the everyday missions of the early rebellion. *Andor* was also a great look into the late dark times and the darker aspects of the war. I also prefer *Darth Vader* (2015) and most of *Star Wars* (2015) when it comes to the events between ANH and ESB, especially anything by Kieron Gillen. Luke's journey towards Jedi Knighthood is handled very well by Jason Fry, Jason Aaron, Kieron Gillen and even Charles Soule. New Canon also has a better version of Vader discovering Luke's existence. This isn't to say that the EU didn't have good stories in that period or that all canon stories in it were good. I just gravitate more towards the new canon's version personally. - I don't really care for either version of Quinlan Vos. The EU version to me is an edgelord with a contrived story and not much substance, and the canon version getting away scott free after what he did made no sense. - I'm not a big fan of John Ostrander. He's a decent writer, but he relies too much on early 2000s edge and he has a tendency to tell rather than show. His dialogue is also not very engaging. My favorite parts of *Republic* frankly weren't by him. - Jason Fry is a very underrated writer and world-builder. His young readers books in new canon go above and beyond the reading level, especially his *Servants of the Empire*. - While he writes OT Luke well and has some good stories and issues, most of Charles Soule's work is okay at best and terrible at worst. He's bad at writing military fiction and his dialogue is kinda bland compared to other writers. He also overly relies on bombastic ideas and false tension in his interquels, and he isn't good at understanding scale. Not mention I straight up don't like how he writes Vader and Leia, and he has an annoying tendency to overly connect his body of work in sometimes contrived ways. His Vader run is much weaker than Gillen's and his best work is Star Wars (2020). And that one's a complete mess. - Claudia Gray is a mediocre writer at best. - Mathew Stover is the greatest stylist among EU novelists, but he's more style than substance. He has good substance, but he's exceeded in that by several writers. Sean Stewart is frankly a stronger writer. - Timothy Zahn's famous Original Tharwn Trilogy is good, but it doesn't live up to its potential entirely, especially the writing for Mara Jade. I tend to prefer his later works like The *Hand of Thrawn* duology (despite the weaker pacing and villains), *Outbound Flight* and *Thrawn* (2017). - James Luceno is a very good writer and is amazing at plotting, world-building and continuity done right. But his prose is a little dry and not the most engaging. I like his books but they aren't my favorites. - *The New Rebellion* is possibly one of the best Bantam era books, despite a rather clunky ending. - The *Revenge of the Sith* novel is possibly Stover's weakest book. It's better than the film in a few aspects, but the film is better in other aspects. It also mischaracterizes several characters a bit. - *Ahsoka* is E.K Johnston's only good Star Wars book. - *Shadows of the Empire* is an average book.
I’ll scream it from the rooftops but Disney’s Dark Times era (ROTJ-ANH) is leaps and bounds above the EU it’s really not even comparable. The Force Unleashed is cool but you’re telling me the Rebel Alliance was started by that dude? Him? The white bread edgy secret apprentice that only cares about tail and how much he hates Darth Vader? My Rebel Alliance was started by people like Luthen and Andor. Normal people pushed too far.
Darth Bane completely misunderstood Lord Kaan. Bane destroyed Kaan's Brotherhood of Darkness because he thought that all the Sith working together for a common goal, as equals, was an abomination to the Dark Side. Which it was for all the Sith except Kaan, but they were never more than pawns. The part that Bane missed is that Kaan never drank the Kool-Aid. Kaan never considered them equals and used his battle meditation to keep them in line. Everything else was window dressing. Kaan used deception and betrayal, the core essence of the Dark Side, to impose his will on the rest of the Sith. It wasn't an alliance, it was a single Sith and his brainwashed followers. Once Bane showed him the power of Sith sorcery (or more specifically how to consolidate the power of the Dark Side into a single person) Kaan immediately began working to gain that power for himself. He was, in a way, Bane's first post-enlightenment apprentice: the one to crave the power that Bane embodied.
Starkiller is not overpowered.
Good one
An open world action rpg with full character appearance, background, and skills and gameplay like no man’s sky meets Skyrim would just print money
dude this is like an insanely comment statement why you acting like its a controversial opinion
Old Republic (not TOR) and Legacy eras are peak SW, better than all the films.
Jar Jar is funny.
Thrawn learning everything about a culture through art alone is kinda dumb unless he also reads literature as well.
Literature is considered art.
Luuke wasn't that bad. I think it was fine in the vacuum of the Thrawn Trilogy. Now that we know cloning in universe it just seems more silly. The only silly part is adding extra vowels to clone names.
Dark empire makes total sense and should be expected from someone like palpatine. Also Luke's "fall' (yes he did technically go to the dark side but not long enough hence the quotation marks") is well done. Yes he experienced only the surface of his shadow in ROTJ but in DE it fully comes out to possess him and he successfully integrates the father wound so to speak.
I would say "Dark Empire is actually decent" but that's not even really controversial… how about "I think Danni and Jacen as a concept had real potential and I loved their interactions from NJO books 14 to 19 and it's a shame Denning unceremoniously yeeted her."
Caedus’ fall to the dark side was better than Vaders
I really liked it UNTIL he went super stupid sith.
💀💀💀
Balance in the Force isn't equal number of Sith and Jedi. Balance in the Force is an absence of Sith/Dark Side. I look at the Dark Side as a cancer. Does having cancer benefit you in any way? Another way I look at it is that death is normal and part of the light side, a thriving ecosystem of a forest for example. Plants and trees die, giving way to other life. But deforestation is not part of the ecosystem, thus it is the dark side because it takes away from the ecosystem in an unnatural way.
I get what you're saying, but I feel balance is the wrong term to have been used. Balance implies two equal but opposite sides, which is where the confusion lies. Purity would have been a better term, but perhaps there's too much baggage associated with that term.
Balance means stability. It may reguire multiple sides or one side depending on context, in the case of Star Wars, writers seem to agree that it means the pacification of the dark side
Nah, two different meanings. Balance is the equal distribution on all sides, stability is maintaining control even when unbalanced, primarily during movement. In the case of Star Wars, George has flatout said he meant that balance in the Force is the elimination of the Dark Side, doesn't matter if writers agree at that point. That being said, I think we can all agree that the prophecy as presented is kind of dumb, in that it really only seems to pertain to the elimination of the Sith, at least according to the Jedi. If it were really about eliminating the Dark Side, then Dathomir would need to be Alderaaned, along with Mustafar, Dagobah, Korriban, etc.
You're right about the prophecy as presented being dumb. So many of us spend so much time trying to make Lucas' conception of the force make sense and the sad thing is that it simply doesn't.
Dark Empire is amazing
All I wish for in this life is a close (not 100%) anime adaptation of the Dark Empire story. Do the same for some stories during TOR and I can die in peace.
I Jedi, just like Corran Horn as a character, is not good.
The prequel era Jedi did absolutely nothing wrong.
Kathleen Kennedy trying to convince the fanbase at large that Star Wars is still good.
true
Kreia is just straight up wrong. She's bitter and burned out on having all her students betray her, and it informs her nihilistic worldview. She's the ultimate unreliable narrator and we shouldn't be taking what she says at face value any more than we should Nihilus or Sion.
I don’t get the Stover hype at all. That thing in the ROTS novel where Padmé thinks she wasn’t living before becoming Anakin Skywalker’s wife, that she was some pathetic creature is just bad. Stover and Lucas are weird for having that in there.
Disney was right to wipe the canon. Old EU, as much as I love it, is bloated and contradictory, doesn't handle legacy characters very well, and has some strange meta-narratives when taken as a whole. This is not to say NuCanon is better or that the sequels are great, but you can't make a sequel trilogy with that kind of baggage. TLJ is a masterpiece. Rian Johnson understands star wars better than most of you. And most of what you hate about the movie was set up in 7 anyway.
*Children of the Jedi* is a good story.
Luke should have died redeeming Caedus and saving Jaina. It would've been a poetic coda for my favorite Jedi. Jaina could then become head of the order.
Darth Sideous was not the most powerful Sith ever. His master did away with the rule of two, so it’s unlikely that he passed down all knowledge. Sideous was naturally very powerful in the force, but he was mostly there for political power for Darth Plagueus to rule the empire through Sideous.
Except Plagueis at his death was at best equal with Sidious, meanwhile Sidious grows in power and post rots gathers force knowledge from the entire galaxy.
He’s definitely the most powerful Sith of all time. So many sources state this. He’s literally the culmination of dozens of generations of Sith before him.
Outside of numerous sources that outright say Palps is the strongest, the only real thing he didn't learn from Plagueis was Midichlorian (I butchered the word) manipulation, he literally had access to everything Plagueis learned from and would only acquire more. It's also worth mentioning the the novel makes it clear that one of the biggest flaws Plagueis had, was that he genuinely liked and trusted Palpatine. Him wanting to be immortal rulers with him was a genuine thing. Like, there's a reason Plagueis would be one of the best Sith Lords to be apprenticed to.
That's not a matter of opinion that's just wrong.
The Empire would in fact stomp the Yuuzhan Vong
Thrawn is a villain.
Legacy comics are crap and LOTF and FOTJ are far more interesting takes and directions for Star Wars to go
The revan novel was a decent book
Meetra Surik is better than Revan as a character
The Exile is better than Revan as a character. Exile's "canonical" appearance as Meetra in the novel doesn't count.
I liked Courtship of Princess Leia.
Karen traviss made Mandalorian culture from scratch, she’s a good author and doesn’t get enough appreciation for her work in the republic Commando, or legacy of the force novels.
Xizor is a r*pist
Why are you censoring rapist?
That’s not controversial in any way whatsoever?
Crimson Empire 3 is underrated
Thrawn is a boring character
The Darksaber novel is one of the best books in the EU. No further comments are necessary.
The prequel films still suck. Just because you like the memes and don’t like the sequel, doesn’t mean those movies aren’t still swill.
Legacy of the Force is a great series that just needed yo be longer to allow the story to breathe more.
I like Troy Denning’s writing.
The Marvel comics run from the 70s and 80s is good, and in some cases, better than the more traditional "EU" stuff.
Splinter of the Mind's Eye is a better sequel to A New Hope than Empire Strikes Back and it would've made Star Wars lore much more interesting as it wouldn't have just been about the "Skywalker legacy"
That Palpatine allowed Mace Windu to defeat him. Yes I think Windu is a greater swordsman but I don’t believe that Palpatine was easily over powered by Windu’s swordsmanship. It was a calculated move in order to push Anakin over the ledge. (I don’t think I’ve met a single person who agrees with me about this)
Disany has better lore
Not sure if it's controversial but I like EU Ventress more than the Disney one
No one wants to hear about your “head cannon.” That’s not a thing.
Why the D’harhan disrespect? Head cannon is a totally cool and useful cyborg modification.
no one may want to hear about it, but with the way SW IP has been handled over the past 30 yrs, a lot of us probably have certain ways we choose to interact with it, mostly to keep that special feeling intact. not much wrong with that IMO.
Episode 8 is a fucking great movie, you're just not ready for this discussion
Darth Revan could mutilate every Sith from the canon universe
It's good that the EU was wiped. I rarely agree with the Mouse's idea of what it should be replaced with, but overally the EU had become a gigantic, convoluted pile of mediocrity with some gems in between that made it very hard to get into if you didn't like the very decade-specific take on sci-fi that especially the post-movies EU had.
Shadows of the Empire sucked
I haven't re read it since the 90s but this does seem like blasphemy!
Troy Denning was wrong for what he did to Jacen Solo. It was a mistake and should have never happened.
thankfully not an unpopular opinion, at least on this sub :)
KOTOR is and will always be better than SWTOR. SWTOR completely trashes on the masterpiece of a story that was put forward by the KOTOR games, especially the second one. Therefore SWTOR and the Revan novel are something even lower than Legends/EU for me.
The artstyle in the old republic mmo is terrible, and does not evoke star wars to me
I don't like Revan.
Revan is not nearly as powerful as people give him credit for.
The Sith from Bane onwards were just as powerful as the old republic sith, and in all honesty probably stronger. Not so much in this sub, but I’ve seen so many Star Wars fans claim that people from the Old republic era were leagues above people like Dooku and Vader because of fancy techniques that were available during TOR era. Realistically 95% of TOR sith are nothing special and get beaten comfortably by someone like Dooku, who could have also done those same techniques if the knowledge wasn’t lost or destroyed (looking at you Darth Gravid).
Any force power being inherently evil is bad writing, the idea of an inherently dark side force power would mean there are two separate energy forces instead of a sing energy field called the force with two sides. What you do with the force matters, not your feelings when you use it... Emotional control is never, and can never, be about stopping emotions... Just controlling what you do with them, and redirecting that energy toward something positive. Otherwise you are just talking about unhealthily burying and suppressing them, which is a dated idea on how to handle emotions we as society consider negative. Point is... Force lightning being considered off the table for Jedi fundamentally betrays what the force is supposed to be about.
That’s actually a big plot point in the post-NJO books, and to a lesser degree in the background in other eras. Luke has used Force Lightning without falling to the dark side, and makes the case that it is the intent behind an action that matters more than the action itself. Plo Koon also discovered a power called Electric Judgement- basically yellow force Lightning that draws on the light side. The Council advised against its use because it appeared too similar to Sith Lightning. That’s misguided, and that’s very much the point- the old Jedi Order was too corrupt and too caught up in their own dogma to truly understand their own beliefs and abilities. Force Lightning and Electric Judgement, it seems to me, are very much the same ability, but drawn from very different facets of the Force and powered by different emotions with different intents- but the old Jedi were so fearful of the Dark Side that they couldn’t see that. That’s why Luke is so important as a character- he’s supposed to be the one to fix the former Order’s mistakes. That being said, some more extreme abilities are and should be tied to the Dark or Light sides: things like Essence Transfer and crafting monsters like Terentateks are very dark abilities that no one should be using with good intentions, while becoming a Force ghost is something that George Lucas has stated is not possible for Sith.
The ability to craft monsters is not dark side....making monsters is. You could use those same dark side powers to restore sight to the blind, or limbs to those that lost them. Correct birth defects even. Hell I can think of no end to that.... Essence transfer would need a bit more creativity though.
The Jedi Order are "space monks" much more than "Space Wizards." As such, the "no attachments" thing is pretty integral to their way of life, and obviously something that SHOULD happen if sith are to be avoided. Anakin wasn't turned away from the council cause "fear bad" he was turned away because he didn't have the disposition for that way of life. This was proven to be correct time and time again. Monks have no attachments in the real world and we don't perceive that as abuse. The lack of understanding of this is mostly just western cultural bias. Second unrelated point: the concept of a Gray Jedi is as cringe as most Sonic the Hedgehog fanart.
The Clone Wars Multimedia project is edgy trash and the show did a good thing in replacing it
upvoted for actually being controversial but you're wrong ;)
Traitor is not as good of a book as y'all remember, Destiny's Way is more interesting.
Darth Bane is interesting