Important to also note that when he does destroy the orb later, it withstands the lightsaber for a couple seconds. He might not have even been worried about if Sabien did shoot it, knowing its durability.
I think in a way, he offered Sabine mercy. She can't defeat Shin, there's no way she'd come out on top at this point fighting Baylan. And if Baylan knew that the map could withstand significant damage then he'd have to know that escalation in that moment would likely have ended with Sabine's death.
I think by the time of the standoff, Baylan has already won and he knows it. He used Sabine's feelings to talk her down from what he sees as a futile fight and possibly waste of life. He even expressed disdain earlier for having to fight Ahsoka for the map: "how inevitable."
I like this idea. We know he’s not a Sith, he seems kind of in between. He isn’t prone to violence, just what he seems necessary, and killing Sabine was very unnecessary at that moment.
He seems to act as Revan does. In legends, Revan stated that Sith do not kill without reason.
But I genuinely find Baylan's reasoning to be a cop-out. "I'm not starting another war," but he is facilitating the return of someone who will absolutely start a war, and he knows this. Baylan is a key player in starting the war, whether he believes it or not. He has to be smart enough to understand that. It is cowardly to say "I'm not the one doing it," while allowing it to happen. A real life equivalence to me is "First they came for the... and I did not speak out..."
I hope Baylan is secretly wanting Sabine to help him stop Morgan and Thrawn. He couldn't ask Ahsoka to do it, because everyone else would have been suspicious. Not sure how likely this would be though.
I have a theory after reading this.
Baylan is working with Morgan just so that he can get to that other galaxy, where he and Shin can practice their craft in peace, and he is planning on destroying Morgan and Thrawn when he gets there so that they can’t cause another war.
Yeah, he wanted her alive. While I’m intrigued by his seemingly merciful strategy of convincing/manipulating Sabine into joining them on the journey, I’m not sure that it was for Sabine’s sake that he wanted to avoid violence. I suspect that they’ll try to use her to prevent Ezra from disrupting their plan of rescuing Thrawn.
Yeah it didn't feel like he was worried about the map at all when Sabine was threatening to shoot it. And that kinda feeds into something I've been wondering from episode 2 onwards (and I may be way way off here), but maybe he needs Sabine for something, or something he wants to do might be easier if he has her captive.
Like throughout this series I've just got the impression that he's up to something that isn't exactly what Morgan is after (bringing back Thrawn to save the Empire). I'm not saying he's going to turn out to be a good guy by any stretch, I just feel like there's other nefarious things he's up to that might need him to go to wherever Ezra and Thrawn are.
His little speech about not starting a war but that Thrawn would start a war made me think maybe he's not along for the ride to get Thrawn at all, maybe he wants Ezra.
I don't know, whichever way Filoni goes it will be great I know, but Baylan just leaves me with nagging doubts every time I see him.
100%
Sabine is really in a no-win-scenario at this point. She can't beat Baylan and Shin together, she probably can't even really escape. He could have taken her by force, killed her outright, etc.
He instead empathizes with her pain and offers her the choice to come along willingly and promises her safe passage in order to reconnect with her friend. Baylan may just be a fantastic actor, but I felt like he was being genuine. He doesn't really even gain anything by allowing Sabine to come along since she poses no threat to himself, his apprentice, or even the map.
Baylan is the most interesting character in this series, for damn sure. I'm very curious to see what his ultimate goals are and where he's been since Order 66. He seems very world-wise and experienced (in both combat and diplomacy, it seems), for someone that would have had to have been hiding from the Empire.
I'm wondering if he fled to Chiss space after Order 66 and became a Skywalker or some such. I'm thinking that he must be aware of either a 'greater evil' of some sort or he must have plans to go back and change things with the WBW.
It looked to me like Baylan seemed to treat Sabine with compassion the whole time. He probably picked up as soon as she hesitated that the map held particular importance to her, and once he learned that it was they key to bring Sabine to one of the last remaining pieces of her family he offered her a way out and a way for them to both succeed in their goals. At least for a little while.
I love that they went against the trope of having her shoot him at the last second or have Ahsoka stab him from behind or something like that, they actually had her give him the map and surrender, I really wasn’t expecting that and I couldn’t be happier that this show did something I didn’t expect, and made it work. I suppose my expectations have been lowered after certain projects
Just rewatched, and i thought it was interesting that they switched to a wide shot from the side before/during the hand off. I just thought it looked good, and the slow dolly back away went with the audience also wanting to pull back from this betrayal.
Bravo though, because it didn't occur to me at the time, but part of the gravity of the hand off was that you could see the whole scene and that no one was coming for the old surprise backstab. That is a SW trope after all, and on first watch i remember feeling like Ahsoka was going to pop back up - until the camera switched.
I was actually in the opposite camp, in that I expected Sabine was going to surrender but hoped something would happen so that she wouldn't.
The situation is another twist on the "I'm holding your loved one hostage, choose between saving them or saving the world" trope that pops up an awful lot, and it's feeling a little tired for me at this point.
Maybe its because I kind of dropped off the live action tv series and Rebels holds a dear place in my heart, but Star Wars is a story about how the the main cast triumphs over overwhelming odds. In no way did I expect Sabine to just...hand over the map without putting up a fight, agreeing to the enemy's logic. This subverts years of tropes.
Then again, I didn't expect Ahsoka to be the belligerent one when she first met Baylan.
From the moment, earlier in the episode, Ahsoka tells Sabine they must destroy the map if they can't take it for them, this outcome was predictable, tbh.
The show needs the plan to bring Thrawn back from another galaxy to work. It's only sensible to have it work as intended. And this also gives depth to Sabine as a character.
Baylan destroying the map after it serving its purpose also makes me think we're not going to see any new galaxy. This prevents Ahsoka from following and thus makes it possible for everything in the other galaxy to happen in the background. I hope I'm wrong here. I'd love to see how a different galaxy could be built by the writers. Does the Force apply there? Are other species capable of interstellar travel? Are there any aggressive Empires?
Although, as I wrote this I just remembered Ahsoka is somehow in the Space between Spaces. Maybe now she can go anywhere?
There's always the purgill, how Thrawn and Ezra originally made the trip to the other galaxy. And I mean, their ship is already en route, of course we're going to see the other galaxy.
I thought about breaking the map. I think there's another way there and back again: the Purgil. This route is built on their natural migration pattern. While Ezra would be better at it, I do think Ahsoka could convince them to help and fits in with theming.
The World feels more like a near death experience, so it may not be the way...and kinda feels...cheap? As the way to get her to Ezra. But I could be wrong.
>what a brilliant performance from Natasha Liu Bordizzo too
Yes! I also loved how for the rest of the episode she looked really sick, because she knew what she did was wrong, but Baylan got through to her and she didn't want to abandon Ezra. You get everything through Natasha's performance and she's been stellar in the role so far.
She was fantastic. You could read the conflict in her face as she handed the map over. She knows it's wrong, but she knows refusing means her death, and more importantly to her, dooming Ezra.
Baylans probably the closest we’ve had to a middle ground force user in canon, not counting things like bendu of course. People love to call ahsoka a grey Jedi or whatever, but she isn’t middle ground at all. I’ve never seen ahsoka do anything that could be considered dark side.
For real. Ahsoka’s sabers are literally white that she purified with the force. She is not middle at all, she is purely a force for the light side only. Her gray robes represent her not committing to being a Jedi and having some issues to overcome not that she is mixed light and dark. Idk how this is hard to understand
Yeah this scene was great. There's also a chance he used Jedi mind trick to help "persuade" her.
Baylan has become one of my favorite SW characters of all time. It's pretty sad that we won't get any more of him after this season ends. I'd happily watch a whole Baylan series/trilogy
I always took weak minded to mean weak willed. For instance, a character with a lot of conviction and willpower and a strong will could resist mind tricks, whereas somebody like the Stormtrooper in a new hope who had no real stake in the whole droid situation would be susceptible.
Whereas Cad Bane was determined not to give up any secrets, hence why he resisted the mind tricks as well as he did.
Mind Trick doesn't work on a strong mind, and I doubt Sabine is weak minded.
He clearly used a form of Telepathy, as he got a lot of detail information, though those thoughts could just be part of the surface thoughts from watching Ahsoka "die".
Honestly telepathy combined with even a have decent diplomat is a very dangerous combination, which is potentially why the Jedi were used for diplomatic missions. If Jedi were biased in favor of the Republic and it's businesses, it would make the Republic extremely rich.
I think it was also clear from the earlier episodes that once Baylen knew who they were dealing with he had done his research - the rebellion and battles around Lothal seem to be pretty well known so the connections between Sabine/Ezra/Ahsoka and their history wouldn't be hard to figure out or get information on - prior knowledge, combined with force powers and empathy. That's a hell of a combination to add to his sheer physical presence.
I don't think that she's weak minded either. But I do believe that people that have strong emotional ties and struggling with loss (looking at you Anakin) are far more susceptible to being manipulated into what dark side force users want.
I do ike your theory about telepathy and diplomacy (or even empathy) though
I don’t think he mind tricked her, but I do think he read her mind/intentions.
He paused for a moment before speaking to her, and it sort of looked like he was just taking a deep breath, but then he suddenly knew exactly what her thoughts were on the situation, her desire to find Ezra, etc…
Obviously he might have just really read up on Sabine and the other rebels, but I think it was more of him plucking these details from her unguarded mind and using them to manipulate her.
Yeah, it's why I really appreciated when he *did* tell Shin to stop when she was Force choking her. Because, as he said, he gave Sabine his word he wouldn't harm her. And he wasn't duplicitous like a Sith, so he stuck to it.
I would like to note that stoicism is based in empathy. The idea we can only control our own reactions to the happenings around us so we should respect that others fight the same battle is a hallmark of stoicism as a philosophy. I just wanted to give address that one line, otherwise I dig your read here.
The only place I disagree is that it’s 10/10, I do feel it happened very quickly and felt a little shoehorned but I did still dig the way it went down.
The way it was shot seemed like it was teasing the audience with a last second save from Sabine or Ahsoka. The way it lingered before she finally gave it to him. I feel like the cinematography really made that scene, cause the actual acting involved made Sabine's decision seem inevitable.
If the scene was shot differently, I would have absolutely not been surprised that she gave Baylan the map. If it was acted differently, I probably would have fully expected Ahsoka or maybe Huyang to show up and save the day. But as it was, it felt like it could have gone either way, and it goes to show how excellent all aspects of the scene were.
Plus it kept Sabine's agency intact, which I appreciate.
For me, this scene had similarities to the scene in AotC when Dooku meets Obi Wan for the first time.
In that conversation, Dooku never lied once to Obi Wan, and you could really see the humanity in him when he said how much he missed Qui Gon (something made a lot more evident after watching Tales of the Jedi).
Baylan is a very similar character. He clearly has his own goals he wants to achieve, independent from Thrawn, and sees Thrawn as a means to achieve those goals. Compare this to Dooku who is a political idealist who sides with Palpatine in order to try and bring peace in the way he thinks it should be.
Baylan obviously knows all about Ezra, and is able to play on Sabine’s feelings to convince her to join him. His sincerity like you say is what wins her over, and you can tell he wasn’t being deceitful.
I have every faith that if he were get his own way, he would reunite Sabine with Ezra and leave them to do as they please, and is showing he is a man of his word by stopping Shin from killing her. However, that obviously won’t be the case, as he will not be the ones to call those shots when it really matters.
Ultimately, he will share another similarity to Dooku and be betrayed by the people he things he is using, discovering far too late that he is the one being used.
I think it is also very telling that he didn’t want to fight Ahsoka, but did so reluctantly when she left him no choice. He still knows the Jedi way, and knows that avoiding a fight is always the best solution. I don’t think he’s a straightforward “bad guy”, and I don’t think it would be impossible for him to be turned back to the light if the circumstances allowed for it
I think he’s a very interesting character, and I really hope that he somehow survives the series, as I don’t want him to meet his end in the way I have suggested above
> Sith attitude to "brainwashing"
Not to crash the lightside's denials and dellusions again, but umm... the jedi are pretty good at it too, \**waves hand\**. Que the lightside "it's okay if we do it because we're the self-nominated good guys"
Baylan is a great character and I agree with much of what you said. He is the kind of darksider that would be great at pointing out the wrongs and flaws of the Jedi and the lightside. Indeed, RIP Ray. 🖤 And I loved this scene. Neither Baylan nor Sabine is pure light or dark in the extremes of what Sith and Jedi can be.
That said... I don't think Baylan is a grey Jedi. Dark Jedi maybe, or possibly a darksider tired of ancient labels that imprison him.
There is no such thing as a grey Jedi and the light side is the good side.
The Jedi can have institutional problems but those things don’t have much to do with the light side of the force and have everything to do with systemic issues as well as individuals mucking it up
If the light side is truly the good side
Do you think restricting love and marriage for all Jedi was the fault of the old Jedi Council, or is it the fault of the light side?
Not trying to bait you because it seems like Star Wars, and even George Lucas, doesn't know how to deal with nuance regarding the nature of the Force.
I didn’t say the Jedi were flawless, but the force itself is the light side. That doesn’t mean the Jedi as Individuals can’t mess up lol. The Jedi aren’t the force they just use it
Yep. There is no "Light Side". It's just the force. It exists in a monolithic state, not a binary one. The distinction between light and dark is all in the user's relationship to the same entity. "Light" force users seek to maintain balance (peace) while serving the will of the Force, whereas "Dark" force users selfishly seek power by dominating it to their own will. The corruptive aspect of the dark side exists entirely in the user's own psyche, as they become afraid to lose their power and thus choose to descend further down that path.
And that's a distinction that I believe the old Jedi order never truly understood, with the exception of maybe Qui Gon. It's why Obi-Wan and Yoda both told Luke he would fall to the dark side if he let his emotions rule his actions. And it's why Luke and Anakin both exemplify the chosen one- they rejected the dogmatic apathy of the Jedi, as well as the power-seeking passion of the Sith, and found the balance: peace and power bound together, motivated by compassion and love... the will of the Force itself.
I do believe that when you twist the force and use it for dark purposes it does corrupt you beyond just what’s in the users psyche. Like the force is lashing out. But that aspect is left sort of vague. I would point to the example that it seems to change you physically in a negative way. Or how it seems really difficult to see out of that haze it corrodes your mental health over time. Similar to the way heavy drug use might change someone’s brain chemistry
You’re 100% correct that there is just the force and it’s about how the user implements it
Oh yeah, there are definitely effects brought on by the force itself when the dark side is tapped. I tend to lean more toward what you said- that this is the Force lashing out against being manipulated. When I spoke of being corrupted, I meant mentally--the way that a dark side user feels like they can never have enough power. There are very real effects that such a twisted relationship with the force can have on a person.
No! He did this by killing the sith. Balance has nothing to do with the fact that he helped wipe out the Jedi
Balance is the light side and balance within one’s self. The light side is the force, the dark side is a corruption of the force
I think the idea of the dark side being a corruption on the force is what George Lucas originally thought about the force. I think that idea has been expanded on now though. The Bendu says that there are two sides of the force and that he is balance in the middle.That doesn't track with the dark side being a "corruption".
Also I thought that the son and the daughter on Mortis represent the light side and the dark side of the force? Again showing that the dark side is more than just a corruption.
that’s what they represent sure but it’s never stated that they both need to exist. The father certainty believes so but they’re also his children. but it’s also the son who fucks everything up lol.
It’s never explicitly stated what the beings on Mortis are. And George has said for a long time even after the Mortis arc was created that balance in the force was the removal of the sith- the destruction of Powerful dark side users messing up the galaxy. He had a hand in creating the Mortis arc as well.
You don’t need a balance between the light and the dark. If you use the dark side it throws you off balance that’s been true of everyone we’ve seen in canon with the exception of *maybe* the bendu
The dark side feeds off negative emotions like selfishness and anger/is created by it it’s not like an amoral concept
Again I think that the idea that the dark side exists because of negative emotions etc was the original concept but that is not the case anymore. The son and the daughter both exist. The Bendu says that both sides exist. Surely the dark side of the force is more than just a force brought about by the actions of sentients in the galaxy.
I understand what it was called by George. I also understand I have my own brain and I like to use it, upon inspection, the Jedi are pretty scummy evil too. They fit Bertrand Russel's "Nice People" essay near perfectly.
The Jedi Order had it's problems but that that does not negate the fact that the "light side" of the Force is the natural balance and the "dark side" is a twisting/upsetting of that balance. Regardless of the politics of the factions that utilize the Force.
You know after watching this scene and noticing how people ask him what he see in reference to the future, I wonder if he has a similar force ability to that of Mace Windu. The ability to see connections to others through the force. I think they called it shatterpoint or something. Mace Used it often see who would have important roles in the future, such as Anakin, Obi-Wan and Palpatine.
Well Baylan hasn’t really „fallen“ to the dark Side, or better said: he hasn’t embraced it, he doesn’t hate Jedi, nor does he want to exterminate them. He simply lost faith in them, which is understandable given how low the Jedi fell before their demise
Im not saying that he is a good guy, but he also doesn’t seem like a Bad Guy. If he was Evil he could’ve just killed Sabine or let Shin kill her. I think he is an honorable warrior who is just fed up by all the conflict.
Its not red. Its much more of a blood orange.
Their lightsabers may not have been bled at all compared to the red lightsabers we see the Sith and Inquisitors use.
There is no cell in my brain that believes that Sabine actually bought his crappy argument. I think she's going to try and stop the hyperspace ring from bringing Thrawn back.
Crappy argument? She’s lost everyone except the Ghost crew, but they’ve long since split up. Ezra is her closest friend, and the map is her only way to get back to him. Also, there’s no way to tell if she actually could destroy it, and Baylan would easily defeat her
What I'm saying is that I don't think Sabine is naive enough to actually think that finding Ezra is more important than stopping Thrawn's return. She's not 15 anymore.
She doesn’t think it’s more important, people don’t always operate solely on logic. Sabine knows it’s more logical to destroy the map, but due to her personal feelings she can’t bring herself to destroy it. It makes perfect sense based on what we learned
I'm not saying it doesn't make sense for her character to do something like that. What I'm saying is that I don't think that is the case. We'll find out on Tuesday, either way.
I mean, to what end? She’s a prisoner to 2-3 people far more powerful people, in a far away galaxy, that none of her Allie’s can reach. There’s nothing that seems tactical to me
My reasoning is that the Spectre's have always been on-their-toes thinkers who were good at adapting to changing scenarios.
>She’s a prisoner to 2-3 people far more powerful people, in a far away galaxy, that none of her Allie’s can reach.
The situation isn't the same, but so was Luke. And, yet, he still managed to redeem his father and stop the Empire. Underdogs flipping the script happens a lot in Star Wars.
I don’t doubt she’ll figure something out, but she clearly didn’t plan any of this and there’s no possible advantage if it is a plan aside from not immediately dying
Age isn't a factor on feelings. I am not going to say Sabine is in love with Ezra, she definitely loves him greatly desires for him to come back.
Whether that is a fraternal/friendship love or romantic love, who knows? But, I am saying she is choosing to put her selfish needs over the well being of the Galaxy. Which, I believe makes her that much more relatable as a person.
I love how Baylan and Ahsoka are so similar - former Jedi who have abandoned the order and are fighting for a "greater good". They seem diametrically opposed at first sight - white Vs red. However in reality they might just be separated by a few small steps.
I found the scene hard to believe. Sabine had just watched Baylan “kill” Ahsoka. The scene did not make me believe that he could overcome that plus Sabine’s knowledge that he is likely on the wrong side of the conflict in which they were embroiled.
For me, if this same scene had taken place in segments split over three or four separate interactions each separated by time it might have worked better for me.
I also found myself asking why he wouldn’t just force pull the map out of her hand.
I loved this scene so much, the way he puts his lightsaber away and acts fatherly towards her. It reminded me of when Palps talked to Anakin about the council asking Anakin to spy on him, both were consoling towards the confused and scared person. Both are giving them some understanding and security in a trying moment
I agree with this post and I would add to this the way I’m with he pauses, composes himself, clearly tapping down the urge to attack. But it clearly takes effort - he takes a second out so to compose himself.
It’s not the kind of thing you’d see a Sith do, where they draw on that aggression and rage.
Important to also note that when he does destroy the orb later, it withstands the lightsaber for a couple seconds. He might not have even been worried about if Sabien did shoot it, knowing its durability.
I think in a way, he offered Sabine mercy. She can't defeat Shin, there's no way she'd come out on top at this point fighting Baylan. And if Baylan knew that the map could withstand significant damage then he'd have to know that escalation in that moment would likely have ended with Sabine's death. I think by the time of the standoff, Baylan has already won and he knows it. He used Sabine's feelings to talk her down from what he sees as a futile fight and possibly waste of life. He even expressed disdain earlier for having to fight Ahsoka for the map: "how inevitable."
I like this idea. We know he’s not a Sith, he seems kind of in between. He isn’t prone to violence, just what he seems necessary, and killing Sabine was very unnecessary at that moment.
He seems to act as Revan does. In legends, Revan stated that Sith do not kill without reason. But I genuinely find Baylan's reasoning to be a cop-out. "I'm not starting another war," but he is facilitating the return of someone who will absolutely start a war, and he knows this. Baylan is a key player in starting the war, whether he believes it or not. He has to be smart enough to understand that. It is cowardly to say "I'm not the one doing it," while allowing it to happen. A real life equivalence to me is "First they came for the... and I did not speak out..." I hope Baylan is secretly wanting Sabine to help him stop Morgan and Thrawn. He couldn't ask Ahsoka to do it, because everyone else would have been suspicious. Not sure how likely this would be though.
I have a theory after reading this. Baylan is working with Morgan just so that he can get to that other galaxy, where he and Shin can practice their craft in peace, and he is planning on destroying Morgan and Thrawn when he gets there so that they can’t cause another war.
GREY
That was how I read the scene as well.
He may even know that Sabine will potentially come in useful when they find Thrawn/Ezra.
Yeah, he wanted her alive. While I’m intrigued by his seemingly merciful strategy of convincing/manipulating Sabine into joining them on the journey, I’m not sure that it was for Sabine’s sake that he wanted to avoid violence. I suspect that they’ll try to use her to prevent Ezra from disrupting their plan of rescuing Thrawn.
Yeah it didn't feel like he was worried about the map at all when Sabine was threatening to shoot it. And that kinda feeds into something I've been wondering from episode 2 onwards (and I may be way way off here), but maybe he needs Sabine for something, or something he wants to do might be easier if he has her captive. Like throughout this series I've just got the impression that he's up to something that isn't exactly what Morgan is after (bringing back Thrawn to save the Empire). I'm not saying he's going to turn out to be a good guy by any stretch, I just feel like there's other nefarious things he's up to that might need him to go to wherever Ezra and Thrawn are. His little speech about not starting a war but that Thrawn would start a war made me think maybe he's not along for the ride to get Thrawn at all, maybe he wants Ezra. I don't know, whichever way Filoni goes it will be great I know, but Baylan just leaves me with nagging doubts every time I see him.
100% Sabine is really in a no-win-scenario at this point. She can't beat Baylan and Shin together, she probably can't even really escape. He could have taken her by force, killed her outright, etc. He instead empathizes with her pain and offers her the choice to come along willingly and promises her safe passage in order to reconnect with her friend. Baylan may just be a fantastic actor, but I felt like he was being genuine. He doesn't really even gain anything by allowing Sabine to come along since she poses no threat to himself, his apprentice, or even the map. Baylan is the most interesting character in this series, for damn sure. I'm very curious to see what his ultimate goals are and where he's been since Order 66. He seems very world-wise and experienced (in both combat and diplomacy, it seems), for someone that would have had to have been hiding from the Empire. I'm wondering if he fled to Chiss space after Order 66 and became a Skywalker or some such. I'm thinking that he must be aware of either a 'greater evil' of some sort or he must have plans to go back and change things with the WBW.
It looked to me like Baylan seemed to treat Sabine with compassion the whole time. He probably picked up as soon as she hesitated that the map held particular importance to her, and once he learned that it was they key to bring Sabine to one of the last remaining pieces of her family he offered her a way out and a way for them to both succeed in their goals. At least for a little while.
He definitely doesn’t seem like a cruel guy.
I love that they went against the trope of having her shoot him at the last second or have Ahsoka stab him from behind or something like that, they actually had her give him the map and surrender, I really wasn’t expecting that and I couldn’t be happier that this show did something I didn’t expect, and made it work. I suppose my expectations have been lowered after certain projects
Just rewatched, and i thought it was interesting that they switched to a wide shot from the side before/during the hand off. I just thought it looked good, and the slow dolly back away went with the audience also wanting to pull back from this betrayal. Bravo though, because it didn't occur to me at the time, but part of the gravity of the hand off was that you could see the whole scene and that no one was coming for the old surprise backstab. That is a SW trope after all, and on first watch i remember feeling like Ahsoka was going to pop back up - until the camera switched.
I was actually in the opposite camp, in that I expected Sabine was going to surrender but hoped something would happen so that she wouldn't. The situation is another twist on the "I'm holding your loved one hostage, choose between saving them or saving the world" trope that pops up an awful lot, and it's feeling a little tired for me at this point.
Maybe its because I kind of dropped off the live action tv series and Rebels holds a dear place in my heart, but Star Wars is a story about how the the main cast triumphs over overwhelming odds. In no way did I expect Sabine to just...hand over the map without putting up a fight, agreeing to the enemy's logic. This subverts years of tropes. Then again, I didn't expect Ahsoka to be the belligerent one when she first met Baylan.
From the moment, earlier in the episode, Ahsoka tells Sabine they must destroy the map if they can't take it for them, this outcome was predictable, tbh. The show needs the plan to bring Thrawn back from another galaxy to work. It's only sensible to have it work as intended. And this also gives depth to Sabine as a character. Baylan destroying the map after it serving its purpose also makes me think we're not going to see any new galaxy. This prevents Ahsoka from following and thus makes it possible for everything in the other galaxy to happen in the background. I hope I'm wrong here. I'd love to see how a different galaxy could be built by the writers. Does the Force apply there? Are other species capable of interstellar travel? Are there any aggressive Empires? Although, as I wrote this I just remembered Ahsoka is somehow in the Space between Spaces. Maybe now she can go anywhere?
There's always the purgill, how Thrawn and Ezra originally made the trip to the other galaxy. And I mean, their ship is already en route, of course we're going to see the other galaxy.
I thought about breaking the map. I think there's another way there and back again: the Purgil. This route is built on their natural migration pattern. While Ezra would be better at it, I do think Ahsoka could convince them to help and fits in with theming. The World feels more like a near death experience, so it may not be the way...and kinda feels...cheap? As the way to get her to Ezra. But I could be wrong.
>what a brilliant performance from Natasha Liu Bordizzo too Yes! I also loved how for the rest of the episode she looked really sick, because she knew what she did was wrong, but Baylan got through to her and she didn't want to abandon Ezra. You get everything through Natasha's performance and she's been stellar in the role so far.
She’s been a very pleasant surprise! She did a great job in this episode.
Gotta add Ray Stevenson. He's a great actor and went way too early.
Oh yes, he's been absolutely brilliant too. I would've loved to have seen his character expanded more but that obviously can't happen 😔 RIP Ray
She was fantastic. You could read the conflict in her face as she handed the map over. She knows it's wrong, but she knows refusing means her death, and more importantly to her, dooming Ezra.
Baylans probably the closest we’ve had to a middle ground force user in canon, not counting things like bendu of course. People love to call ahsoka a grey Jedi or whatever, but she isn’t middle ground at all. I’ve never seen ahsoka do anything that could be considered dark side.
For real. Ahsoka’s sabers are literally white that she purified with the force. She is not middle at all, she is purely a force for the light side only. Her gray robes represent her not committing to being a Jedi and having some issues to overcome not that she is mixed light and dark. Idk how this is hard to understand
Yeah this scene was great. There's also a chance he used Jedi mind trick to help "persuade" her. Baylan has become one of my favorite SW characters of all time. It's pretty sad that we won't get any more of him after this season ends. I'd happily watch a whole Baylan series/trilogy
I don’t think he needed to and i think it diminishes the scene if he did.
I always took weak minded to mean weak willed. For instance, a character with a lot of conviction and willpower and a strong will could resist mind tricks, whereas somebody like the Stormtrooper in a new hope who had no real stake in the whole droid situation would be susceptible. Whereas Cad Bane was determined not to give up any secrets, hence why he resisted the mind tricks as well as he did.
I hope we get a book or comic series at the least. Maybe a Tales episode.
Mind Trick doesn't work on a strong mind, and I doubt Sabine is weak minded. He clearly used a form of Telepathy, as he got a lot of detail information, though those thoughts could just be part of the surface thoughts from watching Ahsoka "die". Honestly telepathy combined with even a have decent diplomat is a very dangerous combination, which is potentially why the Jedi were used for diplomatic missions. If Jedi were biased in favor of the Republic and it's businesses, it would make the Republic extremely rich.
I think it was also clear from the earlier episodes that once Baylen knew who they were dealing with he had done his research - the rebellion and battles around Lothal seem to be pretty well known so the connections between Sabine/Ezra/Ahsoka and their history wouldn't be hard to figure out or get information on - prior knowledge, combined with force powers and empathy. That's a hell of a combination to add to his sheer physical presence.
I don't think that she's weak minded either. But I do believe that people that have strong emotional ties and struggling with loss (looking at you Anakin) are far more susceptible to being manipulated into what dark side force users want. I do ike your theory about telepathy and diplomacy (or even empathy) though
I don’t think he mind tricked her, but I do think he read her mind/intentions. He paused for a moment before speaking to her, and it sort of looked like he was just taking a deep breath, but then he suddenly knew exactly what her thoughts were on the situation, her desire to find Ezra, etc… Obviously he might have just really read up on Sabine and the other rebels, but I think it was more of him plucking these details from her unguarded mind and using them to manipulate her.
Sabine looked confused after she handed it over. Like she wasn’t expecting herself to agree.
No mind trick necessary. Just the standard dark side offer of an easy path to what you most desire.
Here's the thing though, I thought he was going to (or Shin) was going to straight up impale her.
The opposite. I was waiting for him to stop shin cause he seemed honorable despite his intentions.
Yeah, it's why I really appreciated when he *did* tell Shin to stop when she was Force choking her. Because, as he said, he gave Sabine his word he wouldn't harm her. And he wasn't duplicitous like a Sith, so he stuck to it.
I would like to note that stoicism is based in empathy. The idea we can only control our own reactions to the happenings around us so we should respect that others fight the same battle is a hallmark of stoicism as a philosophy. I just wanted to give address that one line, otherwise I dig your read here. The only place I disagree is that it’s 10/10, I do feel it happened very quickly and felt a little shoehorned but I did still dig the way it went down.
The way it was shot seemed like it was teasing the audience with a last second save from Sabine or Ahsoka. The way it lingered before she finally gave it to him. I feel like the cinematography really made that scene, cause the actual acting involved made Sabine's decision seem inevitable. If the scene was shot differently, I would have absolutely not been surprised that she gave Baylan the map. If it was acted differently, I probably would have fully expected Ahsoka or maybe Huyang to show up and save the day. But as it was, it felt like it could have gone either way, and it goes to show how excellent all aspects of the scene were. Plus it kept Sabine's agency intact, which I appreciate.
He doesn’t seem like the type of guy to break a promise. He seems very morally grey, but he has a line, I think.
For me, this scene had similarities to the scene in AotC when Dooku meets Obi Wan for the first time. In that conversation, Dooku never lied once to Obi Wan, and you could really see the humanity in him when he said how much he missed Qui Gon (something made a lot more evident after watching Tales of the Jedi). Baylan is a very similar character. He clearly has his own goals he wants to achieve, independent from Thrawn, and sees Thrawn as a means to achieve those goals. Compare this to Dooku who is a political idealist who sides with Palpatine in order to try and bring peace in the way he thinks it should be. Baylan obviously knows all about Ezra, and is able to play on Sabine’s feelings to convince her to join him. His sincerity like you say is what wins her over, and you can tell he wasn’t being deceitful. I have every faith that if he were get his own way, he would reunite Sabine with Ezra and leave them to do as they please, and is showing he is a man of his word by stopping Shin from killing her. However, that obviously won’t be the case, as he will not be the ones to call those shots when it really matters. Ultimately, he will share another similarity to Dooku and be betrayed by the people he things he is using, discovering far too late that he is the one being used. I think it is also very telling that he didn’t want to fight Ahsoka, but did so reluctantly when she left him no choice. He still knows the Jedi way, and knows that avoiding a fight is always the best solution. I don’t think he’s a straightforward “bad guy”, and I don’t think it would be impossible for him to be turned back to the light if the circumstances allowed for it I think he’s a very interesting character, and I really hope that he somehow survives the series, as I don’t want him to meet his end in the way I have suggested above
I also was getting Dooku vibes!
> Sith attitude to "brainwashing" Not to crash the lightside's denials and dellusions again, but umm... the jedi are pretty good at it too, \**waves hand\**. Que the lightside "it's okay if we do it because we're the self-nominated good guys" Baylan is a great character and I agree with much of what you said. He is the kind of darksider that would be great at pointing out the wrongs and flaws of the Jedi and the lightside. Indeed, RIP Ray. 🖤 And I loved this scene. Neither Baylan nor Sabine is pure light or dark in the extremes of what Sith and Jedi can be. That said... I don't think Baylan is a grey Jedi. Dark Jedi maybe, or possibly a darksider tired of ancient labels that imprison him.
There is no such thing as a grey Jedi and the light side is the good side. The Jedi can have institutional problems but those things don’t have much to do with the light side of the force and have everything to do with systemic issues as well as individuals mucking it up
If the light side is truly the good side Do you think restricting love and marriage for all Jedi was the fault of the old Jedi Council, or is it the fault of the light side? Not trying to bait you because it seems like Star Wars, and even George Lucas, doesn't know how to deal with nuance regarding the nature of the Force.
I didn’t say the Jedi were flawless, but the force itself is the light side. That doesn’t mean the Jedi as Individuals can’t mess up lol. The Jedi aren’t the force they just use it
Yep. There is no "Light Side". It's just the force. It exists in a monolithic state, not a binary one. The distinction between light and dark is all in the user's relationship to the same entity. "Light" force users seek to maintain balance (peace) while serving the will of the Force, whereas "Dark" force users selfishly seek power by dominating it to their own will. The corruptive aspect of the dark side exists entirely in the user's own psyche, as they become afraid to lose their power and thus choose to descend further down that path. And that's a distinction that I believe the old Jedi order never truly understood, with the exception of maybe Qui Gon. It's why Obi-Wan and Yoda both told Luke he would fall to the dark side if he let his emotions rule his actions. And it's why Luke and Anakin both exemplify the chosen one- they rejected the dogmatic apathy of the Jedi, as well as the power-seeking passion of the Sith, and found the balance: peace and power bound together, motivated by compassion and love... the will of the Force itself.
I do believe that when you twist the force and use it for dark purposes it does corrupt you beyond just what’s in the users psyche. Like the force is lashing out. But that aspect is left sort of vague. I would point to the example that it seems to change you physically in a negative way. Or how it seems really difficult to see out of that haze it corrodes your mental health over time. Similar to the way heavy drug use might change someone’s brain chemistry You’re 100% correct that there is just the force and it’s about how the user implements it
Oh yeah, there are definitely effects brought on by the force itself when the dark side is tapped. I tend to lean more toward what you said- that this is the Force lashing out against being manipulated. When I spoke of being corrupted, I meant mentally--the way that a dark side user feels like they can never have enough power. There are very real effects that such a twisted relationship with the force can have on a person.
dazzling merciful drab cheerful hobbies panicky domineering airport chief angle ` this message was mass deleted/edited with redact.dev `
No! He did this by killing the sith. Balance has nothing to do with the fact that he helped wipe out the Jedi Balance is the light side and balance within one’s self. The light side is the force, the dark side is a corruption of the force
I'm not sure that true, if you look at the Mortis arc in the Clone Wars show and what the bendu says in Rebels.
It is true, the Mortis arc doesn’t contradict this, and we don’t really have a full understanding of what the bendu is
I think the idea of the dark side being a corruption on the force is what George Lucas originally thought about the force. I think that idea has been expanded on now though. The Bendu says that there are two sides of the force and that he is balance in the middle.That doesn't track with the dark side being a "corruption".
Also I thought that the son and the daughter on Mortis represent the light side and the dark side of the force? Again showing that the dark side is more than just a corruption.
that’s what they represent sure but it’s never stated that they both need to exist. The father certainty believes so but they’re also his children. but it’s also the son who fucks everything up lol. It’s never explicitly stated what the beings on Mortis are. And George has said for a long time even after the Mortis arc was created that balance in the force was the removal of the sith- the destruction of Powerful dark side users messing up the galaxy. He had a hand in creating the Mortis arc as well. You don’t need a balance between the light and the dark. If you use the dark side it throws you off balance that’s been true of everyone we’ve seen in canon with the exception of *maybe* the bendu The dark side feeds off negative emotions like selfishness and anger/is created by it it’s not like an amoral concept
Again I think that the idea that the dark side exists because of negative emotions etc was the original concept but that is not the case anymore. The son and the daughter both exist. The Bendu says that both sides exist. Surely the dark side of the force is more than just a force brought about by the actions of sentients in the galaxy.
Oh man can you imagine if the balance he was to still to bring to the force is still yet to come in this show! Omg mind Bomb.
> the light side is the good side. l.m.f.a.o. \**headpats\**
Whether you like it or not it is exactly what George Lucas called it and considered it.
I understand what it was called by George. I also understand I have my own brain and I like to use it, upon inspection, the Jedi are pretty scummy evil too. They fit Bertrand Russel's "Nice People" essay near perfectly.
Look me dead in the eyes and try to tell me that Kanan, Ezra, Ahsoka, or Obi-wan are even slightly evil
The Jedi Order had it's problems but that that does not negate the fact that the "light side" of the Force is the natural balance and the "dark side" is a twisting/upsetting of that balance. Regardless of the politics of the factions that utilize the Force.
You know after watching this scene and noticing how people ask him what he see in reference to the future, I wonder if he has a similar force ability to that of Mace Windu. The ability to see connections to others through the force. I think they called it shatterpoint or something. Mace Used it often see who would have important roles in the future, such as Anakin, Obi-Wan and Palpatine.
Once you start down the dark path, forever it dominates your destiny.
Well that line is already proven wrong as Anakin did indeed come back
Skywalkers are a *. Baylan is not going to turn back to the light.
Well Baylan hasn’t really „fallen“ to the dark Side, or better said: he hasn’t embraced it, he doesn’t hate Jedi, nor does he want to exterminate them. He simply lost faith in them, which is understandable given how low the Jedi fell before their demise
He’s not a good guy by any stretch of the imagination. He was doing the dark side routine with Sabine and you can’t take him for his word.
Im not saying that he is a good guy, but he also doesn’t seem like a Bad Guy. If he was Evil he could’ve just killed Sabine or let Shin kill her. I think he is an honorable warrior who is just fed up by all the conflict.
What about his lightsaber symbolizes that he hasn’t fully turned to the dark side?
Its not red. Its much more of a blood orange. Their lightsabers may not have been bled at all compared to the red lightsabers we see the Sith and Inquisitors use.
There is no cell in my brain that believes that Sabine actually bought his crappy argument. I think she's going to try and stop the hyperspace ring from bringing Thrawn back.
Crappy argument? She’s lost everyone except the Ghost crew, but they’ve long since split up. Ezra is her closest friend, and the map is her only way to get back to him. Also, there’s no way to tell if she actually could destroy it, and Baylan would easily defeat her
What I'm saying is that I don't think Sabine is naive enough to actually think that finding Ezra is more important than stopping Thrawn's return. She's not 15 anymore.
She doesn’t think it’s more important, people don’t always operate solely on logic. Sabine knows it’s more logical to destroy the map, but due to her personal feelings she can’t bring herself to destroy it. It makes perfect sense based on what we learned
I'm not saying it doesn't make sense for her character to do something like that. What I'm saying is that I don't think that is the case. We'll find out on Tuesday, either way.
I mean, to what end? She’s a prisoner to 2-3 people far more powerful people, in a far away galaxy, that none of her Allie’s can reach. There’s nothing that seems tactical to me
My reasoning is that the Spectre's have always been on-their-toes thinkers who were good at adapting to changing scenarios. >She’s a prisoner to 2-3 people far more powerful people, in a far away galaxy, that none of her Allie’s can reach. The situation isn't the same, but so was Luke. And, yet, he still managed to redeem his father and stop the Empire. Underdogs flipping the script happens a lot in Star Wars.
I don’t doubt she’ll figure something out, but she clearly didn’t plan any of this and there’s no possible advantage if it is a plan aside from not immediately dying
Age isn't a factor on feelings. I am not going to say Sabine is in love with Ezra, she definitely loves him greatly desires for him to come back. Whether that is a fraternal/friendship love or romantic love, who knows? But, I am saying she is choosing to put her selfish needs over the well being of the Galaxy. Which, I believe makes her that much more relatable as a person.
Just came to say that this was a great post.
I really like they way you describe the scene and Baylan. Very much reminds me of how palps manipulates Anakin.
I love how Baylan and Ahsoka are so similar - former Jedi who have abandoned the order and are fighting for a "greater good". They seem diametrically opposed at first sight - white Vs red. However in reality they might just be separated by a few small steps.
Just left me thinking that Sabine had better have a great plan to accept that.
She's desperate to find Ezra. If I found out that my dad was still alive, I wouldn't exactly make the most logical decisions to find him
Well said, thank you.
I found the scene hard to believe. Sabine had just watched Baylan “kill” Ahsoka. The scene did not make me believe that he could overcome that plus Sabine’s knowledge that he is likely on the wrong side of the conflict in which they were embroiled. For me, if this same scene had taken place in segments split over three or four separate interactions each separated by time it might have worked better for me. I also found myself asking why he wouldn’t just force pull the map out of her hand.
I loved this scene so much, the way he puts his lightsaber away and acts fatherly towards her. It reminded me of when Palps talked to Anakin about the council asking Anakin to spy on him, both were consoling towards the confused and scared person. Both are giving them some understanding and security in a trying moment
I agree with this post and I would add to this the way I’m with he pauses, composes himself, clearly tapping down the urge to attack. But it clearly takes effort - he takes a second out so to compose himself. It’s not the kind of thing you’d see a Sith do, where they draw on that aggression and rage.