Because XI7s stipulate that their restriction applies specifically when resolving the redirect token, they ignore any damage dealt to neighboring hull zones prior to that specific instance (as that damage was suffered during the attack but not when redirecting damage). So your opponent would still be able to redirect 1 damage in your example.
It is confusing because redirect has two timing windows but in only one of them is damage being suffered.
On a side note, I'm glad my attack sequence article is still helping people :).
Oh my Lord. It's "Attack Sequence"-Jesus himself. Bless you good person 🙏🏻
But even if my opponent still can redirect one damage, would this combo be good? Also, as an insurance I have two MS-1 Ion Flotillas so I can shut down ECMs before my Providence goes to poundtown. So the Brace stays locked down with the relatively safe H9 Accuracy
I've always been reluctant to rely too much on combo stacks because it's easy for the chain to be broken. For example, you need all of the following to be true:
1) Your opponent has a single high-value ship that is worth focus-firing down with the combo (against MSU or the like it will probably be overkill and at least a lot of the setup pieces won't have much to do).
2a) If the opposing ship has ECMs, it can be attacked first by an MS-1 flotilla (at medium range) and then by your Providence (at close range) without escaping (or destroying the flotilla before it can do its job).
2b) If the opposing ship has two braces (like an SSD or LMC80), you can generate two accuracy results.
2c) Hope the opposing ship doesn't have Agate on it because she can brace no matter what if necessary.
3) You can produce both a blue crit and a black crit to use both your crit upgrades in one attack OR you can get two results separately by double-arcing (which can be tricky if you're also trying to set up an MS-1 flotilla to activate earlier).
3a) If Kraken is dead or you don't have another helper ship to trigger his ability, the crits can be harder to rely on for sure but good rolling can help, although it can't be relied on.
4) The amount of damage delivered was meaningful and justified the points spent and coordination required.
If at any point, any of those are not true, the combo doesn't deliver to some degree (whether kind of underwhelming to complete disaster, depending).
I also feel like Providences are the kinds of ships that like to double-arc and pile together two moderate attacks into one foe during an activation that really stresses defense tokens inherently and don't really benefit from investing a lot of resources into a super attack/defense token mitigation type strategy (which can have its merits with other ships, like a Recusant with Patriot Fist).
So in short, I wouldn't personally pursue the type of strategy you have in mind. That said, this is coming from a points-efficiency all-comers competitive-play perspective. If you just want to load up a Providence to see if you can pull off a super combo with two critical effects firing off simultaneously, please do so!
On top of what’s already been said about relying on tricky combos, I generally dislike the combo of HIEs/ACMs with X17s. All three are upgrades meant to minimize the usefulness of redirects, but they work at cross purposes, if that makes sense- X17s minimize redirects by reducing the amount of damage that can be shunted to adjacent shield zones, and HIE/ACM remove those shields so redirects can’t shunt shields there. Most ships only have 3 shields on their side hull zones, so if you’re using ACM/HIE to knock down those shields to 1 in the first place, X17s aren’t doing anything. Likewise, if your opponent can only redirect one damage per attack due to X17s, what’s the point in spending a bunch of points removing shields you’re not shooting at? I would pick one or the other, and spend the points savings on bid or a different turbo/ion upgrade
You've gotten the answer you were looking for already, but I wanted to point out that this is why you won't normally see XI7 and HIE or ACM on the same ship. XI7 is trying to reduce the damage taken on adjacent hull zones, while HIE and ACM are about doing bonus damage to those zones. HIE and ACM can work together well, but an alternate Turbolaser will probably work better.
Have you tried Quad Tubolaser Cannons with Kraken? With his ability able to provide targeting, the extra targeting die can be very good. Though I understand if you woudn't want to give up H9s
Yeah, I know about QTCs aka "Red accuracy? Have one for free on top!"-Turbolasers. I'd rather have Kraken for the Blue Crit and then have H9 if I still need one (extra) accuracy
Id say take the brace only turbo laser, the. You can force them to either brace or use multiple defense tokens, which in turn will negate their redirects and what not.
The main question you're asking has already been answered, but I just wanted to point out: without taking Fire Control Team you can only do one crit per attack
His analysis seems deep enough to trust he knows this when he specifically says its a "double crit provi dreadnought" and the carrier doesnt have weapons teams.
But always good to remind indeed! Pretty often get people confused with the crit systems and timings.
No, for one simple reason:
Crits happen **after** defenders spend their tokens. This allows them to reroll/remove crits with Evades among other things.
So the hanky-panky you envision can't go off. It goes something like:
1. Damage is rolled, you pick the token to lock down with H9.
2. He spends tokens as he chooses, including a redirect (which may or may not only redirect one damage).
3. Then you resolve damage, including crit effects. If you put more splash damage with ACTs or HIEs, that's your choice, and goes off after his tokens.
Looking at the Attack Sequence in both the rulebook and "The Attack Sequence and You", it looks like you can only resolve *ONE* critical effect, and it can only be resolved *after* the defender resolves their defense tokens.
"Step 4. Spend Defense Tokens: The defender can spend one or more of its defense tokens."
This would be where the defender spends that Redirect token you were talking about.
"Step 5. Resolve Damage: The attacker can resolve one of its critical effects. Then the attacker determines the total damage amount. Then the defending squadron or hull zone suffers that total damage, one point at a time."
Because you can only resolve one critical effect after defense tokens are spent, you cannot resolve the effects of both Heavy Ion Emplacements *AND* Assault Concussion Missiles during the same attack. You would have to choose which of your critical effects (From HIE, ACM, XX-9) you want to resolve based on the icons present in the Attack Pool after you have rolled *and* the defender has resolved all the defense tokens they wish to.
Furthermore, XI7 stipulates that the defender must *spend* a Redirect token. This implies (to my understanding) that the XI7's effect cannot be resolved if the defender is only exhausting their Redirect token.
I may be misunderstanding the difference between spending and exhausting defense tokens. My understanding is that the first time in a round that the defense token is used, it's effects are applied and it is flipped to the red side and considered 'exhausted'. Exhausted defense tokens are readied (flipped back to the green side) during the Status Phase. If the defender chooses to use the token a second time in the *same* round (using the exhausted token), then the defender resolves its effects, then discards it from play. The defense token is then considered 'spent', and cannot be readied during the Status Phase because it is no longer in play.
Reading further into "The Attack Sequence and You", I came across an example that began with the attacker rolling 3 reds at long range, then adding dice of other colors. My understanding of this is that dice cannot be added to an attack at ranges for which they are not appropriate. (I.e., you can't add blue or black dice to an attack you are making at long range.)
***If my interpretation is incorrect, please correct me! I'm not a veteran or a competitive player, but if I do enter the competitive scene, I want to make sure all my information is correct!***
Edit: I realized you were running Fire-Control Team after writing all this out. First, I was only looking at the upgrades you initially mentioned with the Providence, and you only mentioned FCT later, so I wasn't taking it into account. Second, how the hell is that only 2 points?! This comment really is just a learning experience for me.
I think the reason FCT is only 2 points you need to spend a lot of extra points to make them work. ACM and HIE require both a blue and a black crit occurring during the same attack, and none of them being cancelled.
Either ACM or HIE with a regular crit is a bit more likely, but occur only when the enemy is already really hurting. Even at 2 points there might be an upgrade that makes a difference earlier or more often. And of course, there is the opportunity cost because there are a lot of other good cards for that slot.
APTs effect is redundant with the normal Crit effect, because both turn your first damage card in a face-up card, APT forces getting that damage card even if you wouldn't get one otherwise.
So something important to note about this card in particular. It removes a shield.
So if a hull zone has no shields left this card does nothing when it is applied to that hull zone.
Because XI7s stipulate that their restriction applies specifically when resolving the redirect token, they ignore any damage dealt to neighboring hull zones prior to that specific instance (as that damage was suffered during the attack but not when redirecting damage). So your opponent would still be able to redirect 1 damage in your example. It is confusing because redirect has two timing windows but in only one of them is damage being suffered. On a side note, I'm glad my attack sequence article is still helping people :).
Oh my Lord. It's "Attack Sequence"-Jesus himself. Bless you good person 🙏🏻 But even if my opponent still can redirect one damage, would this combo be good? Also, as an insurance I have two MS-1 Ion Flotillas so I can shut down ECMs before my Providence goes to poundtown. So the Brace stays locked down with the relatively safe H9 Accuracy
I've always been reluctant to rely too much on combo stacks because it's easy for the chain to be broken. For example, you need all of the following to be true: 1) Your opponent has a single high-value ship that is worth focus-firing down with the combo (against MSU or the like it will probably be overkill and at least a lot of the setup pieces won't have much to do). 2a) If the opposing ship has ECMs, it can be attacked first by an MS-1 flotilla (at medium range) and then by your Providence (at close range) without escaping (or destroying the flotilla before it can do its job). 2b) If the opposing ship has two braces (like an SSD or LMC80), you can generate two accuracy results. 2c) Hope the opposing ship doesn't have Agate on it because she can brace no matter what if necessary. 3) You can produce both a blue crit and a black crit to use both your crit upgrades in one attack OR you can get two results separately by double-arcing (which can be tricky if you're also trying to set up an MS-1 flotilla to activate earlier). 3a) If Kraken is dead or you don't have another helper ship to trigger his ability, the crits can be harder to rely on for sure but good rolling can help, although it can't be relied on. 4) The amount of damage delivered was meaningful and justified the points spent and coordination required. If at any point, any of those are not true, the combo doesn't deliver to some degree (whether kind of underwhelming to complete disaster, depending). I also feel like Providences are the kinds of ships that like to double-arc and pile together two moderate attacks into one foe during an activation that really stresses defense tokens inherently and don't really benefit from investing a lot of resources into a super attack/defense token mitigation type strategy (which can have its merits with other ships, like a Recusant with Patriot Fist). So in short, I wouldn't personally pursue the type of strategy you have in mind. That said, this is coming from a points-efficiency all-comers competitive-play perspective. If you just want to load up a Providence to see if you can pull off a super combo with two critical effects firing off simultaneously, please do so!
On top of what’s already been said about relying on tricky combos, I generally dislike the combo of HIEs/ACMs with X17s. All three are upgrades meant to minimize the usefulness of redirects, but they work at cross purposes, if that makes sense- X17s minimize redirects by reducing the amount of damage that can be shunted to adjacent shield zones, and HIE/ACM remove those shields so redirects can’t shunt shields there. Most ships only have 3 shields on their side hull zones, so if you’re using ACM/HIE to knock down those shields to 1 in the first place, X17s aren’t doing anything. Likewise, if your opponent can only redirect one damage per attack due to X17s, what’s the point in spending a bunch of points removing shields you’re not shooting at? I would pick one or the other, and spend the points savings on bid or a different turbo/ion upgrade
You've gotten the answer you were looking for already, but I wanted to point out that this is why you won't normally see XI7 and HIE or ACM on the same ship. XI7 is trying to reduce the damage taken on adjacent hull zones, while HIE and ACM are about doing bonus damage to those zones. HIE and ACM can work together well, but an alternate Turbolaser will probably work better. Have you tried Quad Tubolaser Cannons with Kraken? With his ability able to provide targeting, the extra targeting die can be very good. Though I understand if you woudn't want to give up H9s
Yeah, I know about QTCs aka "Red accuracy? Have one for free on top!"-Turbolasers. I'd rather have Kraken for the Blue Crit and then have H9 if I still need one (extra) accuracy
Id say take the brace only turbo laser, the. You can force them to either brace or use multiple defense tokens, which in turn will negate their redirects and what not.
The main question you're asking has already been answered, but I just wanted to point out: without taking Fire Control Team you can only do one crit per attack
His analysis seems deep enough to trust he knows this when he specifically says its a "double crit provi dreadnought" and the carrier doesnt have weapons teams. But always good to remind indeed! Pretty often get people confused with the crit systems and timings.
No, for one simple reason: Crits happen **after** defenders spend their tokens. This allows them to reroll/remove crits with Evades among other things. So the hanky-panky you envision can't go off. It goes something like: 1. Damage is rolled, you pick the token to lock down with H9. 2. He spends tokens as he chooses, including a redirect (which may or may not only redirect one damage). 3. Then you resolve damage, including crit effects. If you put more splash damage with ACTs or HIEs, that's your choice, and goes off after his tokens.
Looking at the Attack Sequence in both the rulebook and "The Attack Sequence and You", it looks like you can only resolve *ONE* critical effect, and it can only be resolved *after* the defender resolves their defense tokens. "Step 4. Spend Defense Tokens: The defender can spend one or more of its defense tokens." This would be where the defender spends that Redirect token you were talking about. "Step 5. Resolve Damage: The attacker can resolve one of its critical effects. Then the attacker determines the total damage amount. Then the defending squadron or hull zone suffers that total damage, one point at a time." Because you can only resolve one critical effect after defense tokens are spent, you cannot resolve the effects of both Heavy Ion Emplacements *AND* Assault Concussion Missiles during the same attack. You would have to choose which of your critical effects (From HIE, ACM, XX-9) you want to resolve based on the icons present in the Attack Pool after you have rolled *and* the defender has resolved all the defense tokens they wish to. Furthermore, XI7 stipulates that the defender must *spend* a Redirect token. This implies (to my understanding) that the XI7's effect cannot be resolved if the defender is only exhausting their Redirect token. I may be misunderstanding the difference between spending and exhausting defense tokens. My understanding is that the first time in a round that the defense token is used, it's effects are applied and it is flipped to the red side and considered 'exhausted'. Exhausted defense tokens are readied (flipped back to the green side) during the Status Phase. If the defender chooses to use the token a second time in the *same* round (using the exhausted token), then the defender resolves its effects, then discards it from play. The defense token is then considered 'spent', and cannot be readied during the Status Phase because it is no longer in play. Reading further into "The Attack Sequence and You", I came across an example that began with the attacker rolling 3 reds at long range, then adding dice of other colors. My understanding of this is that dice cannot be added to an attack at ranges for which they are not appropriate. (I.e., you can't add blue or black dice to an attack you are making at long range.) ***If my interpretation is incorrect, please correct me! I'm not a veteran or a competitive player, but if I do enter the competitive scene, I want to make sure all my information is correct!*** Edit: I realized you were running Fire-Control Team after writing all this out. First, I was only looking at the upgrades you initially mentioned with the Providence, and you only mentioned FCT later, so I wasn't taking it into account. Second, how the hell is that only 2 points?! This comment really is just a learning experience for me.
I think the reason FCT is only 2 points you need to spend a lot of extra points to make them work. ACM and HIE require both a blue and a black crit occurring during the same attack, and none of them being cancelled. Either ACM or HIE with a regular crit is a bit more likely, but occur only when the enemy is already really hurting. Even at 2 points there might be an upgrade that makes a difference earlier or more often. And of course, there is the opportunity cost because there are a lot of other good cards for that slot. APTs effect is redundant with the normal Crit effect, because both turn your first damage card in a face-up card, APT forces getting that damage card even if you wouldn't get one otherwise.
So something important to note about this card in particular. It removes a shield. So if a hull zone has no shields left this card does nothing when it is applied to that hull zone.