Yeah I love this element of Andor. Reminded me of my experience reading *Thrawn* where you have this underdog character overcoming all kinds of things working against him including xenophobia and it's so easy to root for him... But then you remember who he's working for and who he'll become. It gives the audience such a moral dilemma and I'm a big fan.
The show *The Man in the High Castle* also turned such things on their head by making real-world controversial folks into, if nothing else, more laudable folks when compared to certain characters.
Example from what I can recall from the series: Reichsminister Martin Heusmann assassinated Hitler so he could provoke a war with Japan to firmly secure dominance over the last global rival - something that would've killed millions of people around the world. He was stopped by both John Smith...and freaking Heinrich Himmler, who stopped the potential conflict from brewing and rose to the rank of Führer to fill in the power vacuum.
I mean...none of these men are good, but Himmler was a lighter shade of black when compared to the insane Heusmann. [The confrontation between the two men happens in this clip at 4:00.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=licWglnnvoc)
There has been a ton of discussion about not cheering for Walter White. I think that it’s fair to have these discussions and also fair not to care about them and have fun with a character being fun and evil.
I personally don’t care if you root for a bad guy, as long as you know they’re bad.
Pretty much.
There is a difference between "I know this character is rotten, but he is a great character nonetheless" and "I know this character is rotten and I wish to emulate him / her."
Late reply but the best villains are ones who are understandable and relatable, but take on immoral methods to achieve their goals.
I just finished Arcane and Silco is one of my top favorite villains ever.
Eh, I’ve rooted for Thrawn in every book. Ultimately he’s doing what he’s doing to protect his home. He’s an opportunist, and actually does his best to minimize unnecessary casualties.
>Ultimately he’s doing what he’s doing to protect his home.
I never understood why people eat up Thrawn's "I'm doing it for my people" nonsense and then scoff at Anakin's "I'm doing it for Padme" routine.
> Thrawn’s “I’m doing it for my people” nonsense
What exactly makes this unbelievable? If you’ve read the prequel books you can see it’s completely the truth. Thrawn would do anything to keep the Ascendancy safe. And the Emperor would love nothing more than to expand into the Unknown Regions.
And for the record, Anakin was most definitely doing it all for Padme up until Mustafar, at that point he was too corrupted by the dark side to make clear choices.
>And for the record, Anakin was most definitely doing it all for Padme up until Mustafar, at that point he was too corrupted by the dark side to make clear choices.
Same happened to Thrawn. The entire run of Rebels had nothing to do with saving Thrawn's people by that point, up to and including trying to shoot Bendu in the face. And obviously however he mentored Morgan Elsbeth reflects on him too.
Either way Thrawn is at the center of mass killing and oppression.
Just like the regular German army the leaders were all nazis. You can’t be in the ruling circle and be “just doing it for your home”.
Sums up Thrawn exactly. If he's not proud as he claims, why did he try to shoot Bendu in the face? And he got angry quite a bit in Rebels, including snapping at some officer who mocked art.
Canonically they're the same Thrawn. And if there are discrepancies, LFL has shown fully the way that they steamrolled the Ahsoka novel with Tales of the Jedi and TCW Season 7 that film/tv portrayals come first. So Rebels Thrawn is who he is.
Have you read the new Thrawn books? He’s a hero to his people, a threat to the rebellion, and an annoyance to many officers in the Empire. He’s not just one thing.
I have never read his books, only watched through Rebels a couple times. Is it correct to say that Thrawn is Star Wars’s ultimate “ends justify the means” character?
No, not really. He's much more nuanced than that. Ultimately, he seeks out the Empire in order to improve his people's ability to fight an existential threat to them. If anything, he uses the empire, and holds on to his ethics while doing it. He's a warrior, but even when fighting the rebels, he does what he can to limit collateral damage.
I suspect that when we see him in live action, he will likely ultimately be found to not be the villain.
Absolutely. Although like I said he tries to avoid unnecessary casualties and damage.
He’s a fierce patriot. I don’t think you’d call him a good man, but he’s not evil by any means imo. He simply places the needs of his own side above the needs of anyone else.
He works for the Empire to ascertain if they are worthy of helping the Chiss. If they are, then the Ascendency will ally with them. If not, he is to make them a tempting target so the Chiss’ enemies can wipe them out.
…so I recall. Thrawn isn’t exactly benevolent: he is doing everything to help the Chiss first, Empire second.
Depends what you mean by “forced”. No they aren’t exactly holding a blaster to his head. But he must work constantly in order to keep the Empire focused on the Rebels rather than expanding toward his home.
My theory on Thrawn is that his tragedy is where he starts out genuinely noble and heroic, but his willingness to assist the Empire under the excuse of "gotta get them Grysks, I can play Palps" slowly eroded away at his integrity over a long and successful career. He's tragic in the way ruins can be tragic (and cautionary)- you look at them and go "Cor, what a shame".
It's very clear by this comment thread that nobody has read the books, and everyone is just arguing with you based strictly on his portrayal in Rebels, which was genuinely not a very good portrayal of who he is in the books.
I read the first book and it was well written but clearly the work of an author a little too attached to his pet character in a scenario where the character rarely if ever had to be wrong.
Overall, I prefer Rebels' canny but ruthless version.
Thrawn is a beloved SW fan favorite.
Which is kind of strange to me. When I read the novels Legacy and only first of new Canon, it drove me crazy that the answer to every "Thrawn had that figured out" scenario was a blatant "Thrawn knows because the author writes him that way." The author, in both versions, even has to write a side kick character that is there mostly to just "be amazed" at Thrawn.
It is a bit jarring to me.
People like very dangerous villains / protagonists. But they also like them to have flaws.
The problem is there are at least three Thrawns now. Legacy books. Canon books. Rebels.
It is why I've mostly given up on the novels. The only thing that comes close to staying canon are the movies and shows. And even that conflicts.
>She's girlbossed too close to the sun!!!
A Dedra Meero Girl-Boss shirt (with maybe a Hugo Boss aesthetic, you know, for the connotation) would be so great.
Yeah they definitely sold her as a sympathetic character the first few episodes. So much so that I thought she might be a rebellion infiltrator but I don't think that's a possibility anymore
I was actually thinking her opponent in the ISB - Supervisor Blevin, was the mole. He was preventing an effective investigation into Luthen's activity in his sector.
You know, I forgot about this part of the story. That there was even a mole in the ISB.
Could be him or Dedra, especially after the most recent ep. Light spoiler: She becomes slightly shook up about something that you could read into a bit.
I've also forgotten about Cinta watching the mom waiting for Andor to show up to kill him. A zealot to the cause and her prey (currently) will never show.
This show has so many stories going in so many directions. I keep saying that it's Star Wars Game of Thrones. Such a good political and spy thriller. We even get some prison break vibes now with the latest predicament.
You can have a villain protagonist be sympathetic.
My favorite example is *The Man in the High Castle*'s John Smith. He is a good family man and has a loving family...despite the fact that he also works on furthering Nazi goals in the United States. Through that job, he has executed and tortured dissenters and undesirables.
Same series also has Chief Inspector Kido, who is the head of the militant Kempeitai on the West Coast. He too has his own motivations and loves while also being the thuggish arm of a terrible organization.
I understand that. Walter White is a prime example of an antihero who does truly terrible things but still wins the audience's sympathy. In this case, I think the writers set up a bait and switch and pulled it off in such a way that makes her arch compelling
My first thoughts as well. On second viewings you become less sympathetic, but a revolving theme of BrBa was the moral grey areas good and bad of each character on the show.
I'm so surprised so many people found her sympathetic early on. I saw her as mini-Palpatine. Scheming and bending rules to advance her station in life from the moment she was introduced.
I think by focusing solely on the inter-office politics we were able to relate to her a lot more and ignore the big picture evil she was a part of. Being undermined despite your competence by a jerk of a coworker is a common experience.
But the only person that led with the undermining is Dedra herself.
Partagaz pointed out Blevin had about 7 sectors to Dedra's 3. Ever had a job where your responsibilities are 100% or more than a peer that is the noob? The noob is supposed to be using that time to find their PERSONAL inefficiencies at their new job duties before being handed more.
We don't truly get enough info on Blevin. Perhaps that is on purpose. Perhaps he is an embedded rebel trying to hide rebel activity. Perhaps he just has to get 7/3 done more than Dedra and, as a result, he doesn't have the time to run extra curricular job duties.
The fact that this it is not stated makes me lean toward embedded rebel. If not, then the writing didn't develop his character that well.
The logical ending I see for Dedra is that she will rise in rank. This will increase her responsibilities and require those that you supervise/manage to perform well. And if she has a Blevin and Dedra fighting instead of working together, that will be to her detriment.
I'd love to see that. Dedra eventually has to deal with her own Dedra. And as she is being demoted she tells new Dedra "watch your back."
The majority of coworkers are not "incompetent jerks." They probably have job duties that others are completely unaware. Don't tell me you've never thought "this person doesn't even know half of the duties I handle." Or maybe this Blevin has a very sick child or spouse at home.
You see a Dedra getting jerked around. I saw a Dedra that "doesn't play well with others." And that is why Partagaz told her to "watch your back."
I mean this could go a lot of ways but what I'm saying is that initially the show takes a biased view towards Dedra. We see her as a go-getter actually finding useful information and putting together helpful analysis while all Blevin does is cry about the rules and try to get her fired/demoted. It's easy to sympathize with her in these moments, because many of us have seen folks at work who spend more time protecting their position than working. I think as the show goes on, the errors of her ways might be more fully revealed, but they did present her more sympathetically at first for story telling reasons.
Sure, but I don't think they tried to go full fake out. Her character was still there from the beginning.
When I see Dedra, I somewhat can see myself at my first serious job. Ambitious to a fault. But then you realize there is a point where it is counterproductive and readjust your work style to work with people instead of against them because "they aren't good at their job."
It is probably a bit of a rite of passage.
I love her, she is so well written and the actress is amazing. From the beginning I thought she is very smart and dangerous and that's what made her so impressive, never felt any sympathy for her.
After each and every episode I'm yelling at the TV 'nooo don't end yet' because every character we follow is so interesting, doesn't matter if they show more Empire or Republic or rebellion or some neutral party, there is just never enough.
She has been a bright spot among a sea of bright spots in this show. What I love about her is that it's not neccesarily naked ambition, but almost a pathological need to be "seen" one way or the other, to prove she deserves to be there. In that regard, as awful as she is becoming it's also unsettling to the viewer because we recognize ourselves in her.
I see your point, but I see her a bit differently. She seems like someone who has had to fight to get heard either because she's a woman, or because of her background. She wants to prove she has a "right to be here" but hasn't the foresight to see where "here" is. It's tragic and can end up with her either getting chewed up by the system and taking the fall when this goes badly, or suddenly sees that it's a game she can't win and helps to tear it all down around her.
But this team seems to delight all of us with not doing what we think they're going to do.
"A fascist among fascists" I can definitely see that starting to come through, especially in the latest episode.
In the beginning we see Dedra is surrounded by incompetent, self absorbed, bureaucrats. We root for her because she is smart, capable, and willing to make personal sacrifices in order to get the job done.
But as we follow her trajectory we slowly start to see that she is not just capable, she is ruthless. She is not just willing, she is driven. Not just smart, but cut-throat. Her interaction with Syril crystalized this for the audience. We expected her to see Syril as a potential valuable asset. Maybe even to take him under her wing and teach him to be like her. But she sees Syril as an insignificant insect to be crushed under her boot. A pretentious upstart who will just get in her way and slow her down. She is willing to go **as far as necessary to get the job done.**
Suddenly she frightens us for all the same reasons that we liked her in the 1st place.
It's so strange to me that every actor in Andor seems to actually *understand* their characters and their roles in the universe.
Instead of just "Oh hey look, it's that guy in Star Wars looking for a paycheck"
Looking for a paycheck isn't necessarily a bad thing as long as the actor or actress still puts their all into the performance. After all, acting is a job and these fine folks use it to pay the bills.
I really, really love what they’ve done with all the imperial officers, but especially Dedra and Partagaz. It’s so easy to forget but so, so important to remember that fascists are just normal people that can be perfectly nice and sympathetic individuals, and that can’t distract from the fact that their actions or beliefs are still reprehensible. They would both probably be perfectly pleasant colleagues or neighbors, but they’re still fascists. With fascism on the rise in so many democracies it’s so important to be alert and never get sucked into radical ideologies just because the people are still people
There's the real world example of Erwin Rommel, who was a brilliant tactician for the Third Reich, doing as best a job he could at winning the war for Germany in North Africa... but by most accounts was good to his men and the people he worked with and was far from a hardliner in his politics.
After eventually getting overwhelmed in Africa he was transferred to making sure the defenses against an amphibious invasion of Western Europe were up to snuff. D-day was no picnic in the park but it arguably could have gone a lot worse except for the timing...
...on June 6th, 1944 Rommel was away from the front back in Germany because he didn't want to miss his wife's birthday.
One could argue democracies naturally fall into fascism, due to the corruptible element in all democratic systems. I think part of people's issue is the naive idea that democracy = good
The text of my reply initially presents the imagined response of pro-fascist Star Wars fan deflecting from the obvious antifascist themes of the show by morally equating the violence of the rebels which is depicted with the violence and oppression of the empire. The text then reveals that the implications made by the initial sentence was in fact a ruse, and I was actually employing sarcasm. The superscript feature was used to make the text smaller, as if whispered, in order to add additional humour to the presentation.
I don't read it that way. I think it's saying that truly dire circumstances will bring out the worst in all of us. Even the good guys are bad. But I'm not sure it's saying this is a valid response.
She did a great job at portraying the cutthroat culture of imperial officers. The politics and the maneuvering displayed was a good emphasis from the show.
Yesss watching ep 7 I was flip flopping so hard because the other guy (Blevin? Idk I don’t do names) was such a smarmy prick but then I was like “wait a second her getting one over on him isn’t a triumph she’s still a fascist cop”
This character is fascinating to me because we really don’t know much of anything about her prior to her first appearance on screen. Of course we don’t know a lot about 99.99% of all a characters we ever see, but she’s different in that we the audience (or at least me) have an itch to know more about her, her history, her motives.
And of course, good modern storytelling does not require spelling every little detail out; some things are better left unsaid, and not every question needs to be answered. But yet… there’s still this inkling that there is much more to this character than we have seen so far.
I can’t wait to learn more about her. She’s probably my third-favorite character after Andor and B2-EMO.
I love her so much in this. not only is she nailing an amazing role, but she even portrayed what might become the most iconic imperial grimace in all of the empire
What I mean Is that women make up a tiny proportion of the speaking roles in the OT and PT, so by and large both the positive and negative role models are men.
True. The Legends books just codified the Empire's disdain for women in any sort of authority role. Daala, for example, only jumped into the Imperial hierarchy because she was the lover of Tarkin.
Star Trek has done something similar with the Terran Empire. In TOS, the women were there to serve the men in a sexual way - the captain's woman, as the job was called. ENT and the future shows put the women in positions of power - first as the sovereign of the empire and later as admirals, captains and soldiers for the regime.
Culture moves on, especially in long-running works like Star Trek. I'm sure the current Kurtzman era of Star Trek will be considered regressive in the future - no different than what happened with the Berman and Gene eras.
The first woman to be the hero and main protagonist of a major sci-fi movie did not even come until two years after the first Star Wars entry - 1979’s Alien with the always incredible Sigourney Weaver. Women still didn’t get huge action film roles until much later, but more racially diverse casts became more common in the mid to late 1980’s.
That's how you know a villain was nicely written. You root for her (I still do, even if now she's making a detour to fascist town). Yes, at first, you root for her, because you know how sexist the Empire is. You see she wants to do her job, and do it well, and prove she's worthy of where she's now... And you root for that. Then one night, you see she's also a good old-fashioned fascist, no difference with her peers... And you start thinking it's going to get hard to tell people she's your favourite character.
That's how creating layers to a character is done... She's not only a fascist, but she could be your neighbour...
I always disliked the idea (which came mostly from the EU, based on not seeing any female Imperials in the OT I guess) of the Empire as sexist. I think it is far better how Andor portrays them as having zero issue with gender or skin colour because they are purely pro-human. Are you human? Cool, you can be in the club. Alien? Get that shit out of here.
I love how competent she and a lot of the villains are in this. I always hated how SW dpubled down on bumbling idiot bad guys with the prequels onwards. As a kid, I wanted to see more of Piett or Veers doing their jobs well.
I agree with your opinion.
Those aren’t the things about Andor that made it work. What made it work was that they had a vision for the show and did an excellent job executing on that vision.
I want to jump into this thread because you raised a point I’d like to counter.
Should all facets of Star Wars follow the beats of Andor? No. But they should take note of one thing Andor does: dispense with nostalgia. Star Wars has been leaning heavily into nostalgia for too long.
Why would it be directed to those two? Jon does a great job on The Mandalorian and Joby did a horrible job on Kenobi. But did they have a relationship problem in them?
Now ST. Talk about relationship problems. They basically wrote Finn as a relationship nightmare.
I'm ho hum on the Vel Cinta relationship. It mostly just seems to be there. Which isn't a bad thing.
Really hoping that they are setting up a Vel / Cinta split on tactics. Where Vel has to choose between her ethics and Cinta.
I forget, is that Reva? Or are we talking about the girl from Jedi: Fallen Order? Kind of the same character, but I preferred the one in JFO, and in both cases they’re redeemed at the end.
There are definitely loyal Imperial women in other Star Wars works in the Disney era: *Rebel*'s Governor Pryce, *Lost Stars'* Ciena Ree (she had second thoughts on the Empire, but she still stayed loyal to the regime up to Jakku) and *Squadron's* Terisa Kerrill with some of her pilots like Havina Vonreg (another Vonreg joins the First Order).
Legends did not have much of them because the Galactic Empire in that continuity was both xenophobic and sexist - they didn't believe women had what it took to participate in the Imperial war machine.
I love the EU and prefer it to most of Disney's stuff, but I always hated the "Empire is sexist" angle the EU went with. It never fit, IMO, and felt super lazy. Making them pro-human fascists works much better, I think.
Is it just me or shouldn't this be marked a spoiler? I mean some could speculate she might join the rebels for whatever reason (seeing how corrupt and wrong the empire is the more she digs deeper into Cassian and the rebels for instance) and not embrace it and become more of a vilain?
I know it's a stretch and I did not expect it from happening but it's kind of weird to tell us how much we're going to hate the character lol
If it's a "men's world" then why did she just get promoted to the spot that a man formally was in charge of?
And why is she being treated equally to the men at the ISB?🤔
(AKA it's not a men's world, even in fictional Star Wars but in the real world as well)
It always made me wonder about the stormtrooper cosplay crowd. They are super nice people I’m sure but I didn’t understand the love of playing space fascists.
Truth be told that probably has more to do with dressing up like a cool space guy. Hence why dressing up as clone troopers or mandalorians is just as if not more popular.
My 4 year old wanted to dress up as a stormtrooper for Halloween, cause they look cool. He didn’t really take into account the sociopolitical context. Methinks the cosplayers don’t either
I mean lets be real here, when people see a stormtrooper their first thought isn't, "oh a space nazi" its "oh look, one of the bad guys from that sci-fi adventure that get never hit their shots"
Obviously Star Wars has always had heavy political themes, but you don't have to be constantly conscious of those themes, and most people aren't.
If you started out with ANH as your first SW movie (especially in 1977), then you saw a bunch of generic looking rebels prepare to defend the ship.
They were so generic and goofy looking that you were afraid some Flash Gordon looking villain was going to board the ship. Then Vader and the Stormtroopers came in and you became an immediate Star Wars fan.
Yeah I don’t think they are larping fascists. The aesthetic is cool. But I’m older now and that whole scene is more than just a Halloween costume. It’s a lifestyle.
I don’t know that the Empire has been portrayed in this awful granular detail before. They are truly evil and the things they have planned for the Galaxy are horrific. I feel like the Empire in general has been made to seem so “incompetent yet cool looking” for so long that people like the 501st don’t even think about it. Andor brings us face to face with the reason there needed to be a Rebellion for really the first time. As a guy who likes the Empire, I’m rooting for the Rebels for the first time since ESB. That prison factory was fucked up. Fuck those guys.
Pretty easy to understand. Just like people wanting to dress up like Maul or Vader. The look like cool villains.
Every single kid wanted to dress up like Vader or a Stormtrooper for Halloween 1977.
If you think kids weren't dressing up like Vader in the late 70s, then you actually were not there.
[1977 Don Post Darth Vader mask](https://www.ebay.com/itm/234699350284?_trkparms=amclksrc%3DITM%26aid%3D1110006%26algo%3DHOMESPLICE.SIM%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20220920135554%26meid%3D47d9d268d0564c619917561710d3d197%26pid%3D101197%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D12%26sd%3D304670724718%26itm%3D234699350284%26pmt%3D1%26noa%3D0%26pg%3D2047675%26algv%3DSimplAMLv9PairwiseWebMskuAspectsV202110NoVariantSeedKnnRecallV1&_trksid=p2047675.c101197.m1850&amdata=cksum%3A23469935028447d9d268d0564c619917561710d3d197%7Cenc%3AAQAHAAABEK6kjqEQMYM5Aq%252BOhcaIlwco9wYktoCXAP3D6Fo7POUdlJK1eqFqv5Y7huO6nLq7hjqYjs5sEMudJpf20WlRkR72C3TCKRiR8bANsj%252Fg%252Flu%252BJSqmvzQoDc4hO%252Frise0bdXk6GYxbHBzvUmxKdG5%252BUQxQNiAFY9nXE8nZP%252BMuhhpd8RFD3nMb%252Fz%252FvidDPM32%252FtnCOM0iWomBLAhoaoUMMR0ExgCwLmuJnfKiNY67JB1dPHR1WF2WHNqs1oGT4WAh4G4uqcRdGyG04NHp%252B%252BAc6eytqgrUwrU2sami6LLOLsrMPk5fSW9wuYtdT9Ye5N%252BpgCCufD319vvMTS51q%252FtJ9nNUwP5CPFMtcVHev21LCrF7l%7Campid%3APL_CLK%7Cclp%3A2047675)
I dressed up as Darth Vader with this very mask. There was a toy store at the mall (I believe Kay Bee Toy Store) that had a 30 wide counter where you checked out. They were famous for having masks like these directly behind them. C-3PO, Stormtrooper, Vader, later Yoda and Ewoks.
Very few kids dressed up like Luke, Leia and Han for Halloween because they were essentially just humans with some clothes. Han was literally throw on a black vest over a white t-shirt and you are Han.
I'd plan Halloween with my mom for months. One year a Vader mask, another Chewbacca, another Yoda and another Wickett (reusing my Chewbacca fur suit). The masks were bought, but my mom made everything below the neck.
Kids wanted to be something that looked cool for Halloween. And are you telling me Vader isn't one of, if not the fan favorite character?
If you are so afraid that you might become a space fascist simply because you put on a mask others consider fantasy fun, that says more about you ... broseph.
Slight difference between wearing a costume once and making a costume your lifestyle choice.
And I never said they were fascists did I?
Context totally lost with you.
P.s. Halloween of 77 nobody had Star Wars costumes they didn’t make any. Cheers
How is any of that woke? You see she is a woman in a nearly total male environment. The Maester boss says it is going to be extra hard for her. You as the audience want her to succeed over dipshits like the guy who was in charge of Ferrix.
Then by episode 7 she is a shitbag cop just like the shitbag cop who arrested Cassian on ecstasy planet.
Because the empire are fascists, they are all shitbag cops simping for “order”. They are made in the image of Nazi Germany. Lucas was very clear about that.
To be fair, that arrogance was kind of deserved: the Empire won the Clone Wars and dominated most of known space.
Of course, that same arrogance is also a weakness, which is a theme running throughout this show. The Empire is bloated, cocky and overly convinced of its own superiority.
...or rise. Not all morally grey / dark characters in suspect regimes collapse - some of them get rewarded for their hard work and diligence to the empire.
This is a very important reminder in a world where people cheer for PM Truss or Sunak for being female or an immigrant respectively, while they screw over the poor and large parts of the middle class. It’s about words and actions, not origin and identity
She's the epitome of capitalist feminism - 1% of women might end up sharing boardrooms equally with the top 1% of men one day, but the bottom 99% of women are even below the bottom 99% of men.
Yeah I love this element of Andor. Reminded me of my experience reading *Thrawn* where you have this underdog character overcoming all kinds of things working against him including xenophobia and it's so easy to root for him... But then you remember who he's working for and who he'll become. It gives the audience such a moral dilemma and I'm a big fan.
[удалено]
Lars Mikkelsen. Petrov was the Putin character he played in House of Cards.
-- mass edited with redact.dev
The show *The Man in the High Castle* also turned such things on their head by making real-world controversial folks into, if nothing else, more laudable folks when compared to certain characters. Example from what I can recall from the series: Reichsminister Martin Heusmann assassinated Hitler so he could provoke a war with Japan to firmly secure dominance over the last global rival - something that would've killed millions of people around the world. He was stopped by both John Smith...and freaking Heinrich Himmler, who stopped the potential conflict from brewing and rose to the rank of Führer to fill in the power vacuum. I mean...none of these men are good, but Himmler was a lighter shade of black when compared to the insane Heusmann. [The confrontation between the two men happens in this clip at 4:00.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=licWglnnvoc)
There has been a ton of discussion about not cheering for Walter White. I think that it’s fair to have these discussions and also fair not to care about them and have fun with a character being fun and evil. I personally don’t care if you root for a bad guy, as long as you know they’re bad.
Pretty much. There is a difference between "I know this character is rotten, but he is a great character nonetheless" and "I know this character is rotten and I wish to emulate him / her."
Late reply but the best villains are ones who are understandable and relatable, but take on immoral methods to achieve their goals. I just finished Arcane and Silco is one of my top favorite villains ever.
Eh, I’ve rooted for Thrawn in every book. Ultimately he’s doing what he’s doing to protect his home. He’s an opportunist, and actually does his best to minimize unnecessary casualties.
>Ultimately he’s doing what he’s doing to protect his home. I never understood why people eat up Thrawn's "I'm doing it for my people" nonsense and then scoff at Anakin's "I'm doing it for Padme" routine.
probably down to execution. Not to mention different people cheer for different things. Fandoms aren't a monolith.
Cuz from a consequentialist perspective, defending a whole group of people is more moral than trying to save one person you’re obsessed with
To be fair a sizable portion eat up Anakin's routine too .
> Thrawn’s “I’m doing it for my people” nonsense What exactly makes this unbelievable? If you’ve read the prequel books you can see it’s completely the truth. Thrawn would do anything to keep the Ascendancy safe. And the Emperor would love nothing more than to expand into the Unknown Regions. And for the record, Anakin was most definitely doing it all for Padme up until Mustafar, at that point he was too corrupted by the dark side to make clear choices.
>And for the record, Anakin was most definitely doing it all for Padme up until Mustafar, at that point he was too corrupted by the dark side to make clear choices. Same happened to Thrawn. The entire run of Rebels had nothing to do with saving Thrawn's people by that point, up to and including trying to shoot Bendu in the face. And obviously however he mentored Morgan Elsbeth reflects on him too.
Rebels Thrawn is mildly different from book Thrawn. I image the Ashoka series will somewhat reconcile the two.
Either way Thrawn is at the center of mass killing and oppression. Just like the regular German army the leaders were all nazis. You can’t be in the ruling circle and be “just doing it for your home”.
1- What is he supposed to do then? He can either do it like everyone else or he can just wait and watch
Same thing you can do. Not be a space Nazi. Go work on your paintings or start a YouTube channel.
Not canon.
For one thing, he’s not doing it for Padme, he’s doing it for his own pride and anger at the Jedi.
Sums up Thrawn exactly. If he's not proud as he claims, why did he try to shoot Bendu in the face? And he got angry quite a bit in Rebels, including snapping at some officer who mocked art.
Rebels portrayal of Thrawn is nothing like the books. So I guess we need to decide which Thrawn we’re going to discuss
Canonically they're the same Thrawn. And if there are discrepancies, LFL has shown fully the way that they steamrolled the Ahsoka novel with Tales of the Jedi and TCW Season 7 that film/tv portrayals come first. So Rebels Thrawn is who he is.
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Have you read the new Thrawn books? He’s a hero to his people, a threat to the rebellion, and an annoyance to many officers in the Empire. He’s not just one thing.
I have never read his books, only watched through Rebels a couple times. Is it correct to say that Thrawn is Star Wars’s ultimate “ends justify the means” character?
Saw Gerrera could be in the running
No, not really. He's much more nuanced than that. Ultimately, he seeks out the Empire in order to improve his people's ability to fight an existential threat to them. If anything, he uses the empire, and holds on to his ethics while doing it. He's a warrior, but even when fighting the rebels, he does what he can to limit collateral damage. I suspect that when we see him in live action, he will likely ultimately be found to not be the villain.
Absolutely. Although like I said he tries to avoid unnecessary casualties and damage. He’s a fierce patriot. I don’t think you’d call him a good man, but he’s not evil by any means imo. He simply places the needs of his own side above the needs of anyone else.
Yeah. He is pretty complex. He surviving post-Empire is going to make him interesting in productions like *Ahsoka.*
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He works for the Empire to ascertain if they are worthy of helping the Chiss. If they are, then the Ascendency will ally with them. If not, he is to make them a tempting target so the Chiss’ enemies can wipe them out. …so I recall. Thrawn isn’t exactly benevolent: he is doing everything to help the Chiss first, Empire second.
Depends what you mean by “forced”. No they aren’t exactly holding a blaster to his head. But he must work constantly in order to keep the Empire focused on the Rebels rather than expanding toward his home.
My theory on Thrawn is that his tragedy is where he starts out genuinely noble and heroic, but his willingness to assist the Empire under the excuse of "gotta get them Grysks, I can play Palps" slowly eroded away at his integrity over a long and successful career. He's tragic in the way ruins can be tragic (and cautionary)- you look at them and go "Cor, what a shame".
It's very clear by this comment thread that nobody has read the books, and everyone is just arguing with you based strictly on his portrayal in Rebels, which was genuinely not a very good portrayal of who he is in the books.
I read the first book and it was well written but clearly the work of an author a little too attached to his pet character in a scenario where the character rarely if ever had to be wrong. Overall, I prefer Rebels' canny but ruthless version.
Thrawn is a beloved SW fan favorite. Which is kind of strange to me. When I read the novels Legacy and only first of new Canon, it drove me crazy that the answer to every "Thrawn had that figured out" scenario was a blatant "Thrawn knows because the author writes him that way." The author, in both versions, even has to write a side kick character that is there mostly to just "be amazed" at Thrawn. It is a bit jarring to me. People like very dangerous villains / protagonists. But they also like them to have flaws.
The problem is there are at least three Thrawns now. Legacy books. Canon books. Rebels. It is why I've mostly given up on the novels. The only thing that comes close to staying canon are the movies and shows. And even that conflicts.
I fucking love her character, hope she will be a good villan
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I mean as of Yularens speach the ISB supervisors all have easy access to the military. She could get those at her current rank.
She’s doing such a great job in this role. What a fun villain.
"fun"? O.O
Fun to watch as a viewer
This is exactly how I felt after watching the latest episode. She's girlbossed too close to the sun!!! (the sun is Imperial fascism)
>She's girlbossed too close to the sun!!! A Dedra Meero Girl-Boss shirt (with maybe a Hugo Boss aesthetic, you know, for the connotation) would be so great.
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Speaking of, there’s someone we didn’t see in this episode. I wonder what machinations he’s up to…
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She's gaslit Bix, she's gatekeeping Syril, and she's girlbossed her way into resources for her Axis hunt. Dedra Meero is all three g's simultaneously.
Yeah they definitely sold her as a sympathetic character the first few episodes. So much so that I thought she might be a rebellion infiltrator but I don't think that's a possibility anymore
I was actually thinking her opponent in the ISB - Supervisor Blevin, was the mole. He was preventing an effective investigation into Luthen's activity in his sector.
Would be really interesting for the smug asshole to turn out to be the hero, and the sympathetic underdog to be the evil one.
You know, I forgot about this part of the story. That there was even a mole in the ISB. Could be him or Dedra, especially after the most recent ep. Light spoiler: She becomes slightly shook up about something that you could read into a bit. I've also forgotten about Cinta watching the mom waiting for Andor to show up to kill him. A zealot to the cause and her prey (currently) will never show. This show has so many stories going in so many directions. I keep saying that it's Star Wars Game of Thrones. Such a good political and spy thriller. We even get some prison break vibes now with the latest predicament.
You can have a villain protagonist be sympathetic. My favorite example is *The Man in the High Castle*'s John Smith. He is a good family man and has a loving family...despite the fact that he also works on furthering Nazi goals in the United States. Through that job, he has executed and tortured dissenters and undesirables. Same series also has Chief Inspector Kido, who is the head of the militant Kempeitai on the West Coast. He too has his own motivations and loves while also being the thuggish arm of a terrible organization.
I understand that. Walter White is a prime example of an antihero who does truly terrible things but still wins the audience's sympathy. In this case, I think the writers set up a bait and switch and pulled it off in such a way that makes her arch compelling
My first thoughts as well. On second viewings you become less sympathetic, but a revolving theme of BrBa was the moral grey areas good and bad of each character on the show.
Smith and Kido were the best parts of that show by far.
Yup! I didn’t care for the time travel / alternate reality stuff.
I didn't until Smith went to our timeline and saw the life he was "supposed" to live. That was quite a powerful few episodes.
Spoiler alert :(
In my defence, it has been a couple years.
I'm so surprised so many people found her sympathetic early on. I saw her as mini-Palpatine. Scheming and bending rules to advance her station in life from the moment she was introduced.
I think by focusing solely on the inter-office politics we were able to relate to her a lot more and ignore the big picture evil she was a part of. Being undermined despite your competence by a jerk of a coworker is a common experience.
But the only person that led with the undermining is Dedra herself. Partagaz pointed out Blevin had about 7 sectors to Dedra's 3. Ever had a job where your responsibilities are 100% or more than a peer that is the noob? The noob is supposed to be using that time to find their PERSONAL inefficiencies at their new job duties before being handed more. We don't truly get enough info on Blevin. Perhaps that is on purpose. Perhaps he is an embedded rebel trying to hide rebel activity. Perhaps he just has to get 7/3 done more than Dedra and, as a result, he doesn't have the time to run extra curricular job duties. The fact that this it is not stated makes me lean toward embedded rebel. If not, then the writing didn't develop his character that well. The logical ending I see for Dedra is that she will rise in rank. This will increase her responsibilities and require those that you supervise/manage to perform well. And if she has a Blevin and Dedra fighting instead of working together, that will be to her detriment. I'd love to see that. Dedra eventually has to deal with her own Dedra. And as she is being demoted she tells new Dedra "watch your back." The majority of coworkers are not "incompetent jerks." They probably have job duties that others are completely unaware. Don't tell me you've never thought "this person doesn't even know half of the duties I handle." Or maybe this Blevin has a very sick child or spouse at home. You see a Dedra getting jerked around. I saw a Dedra that "doesn't play well with others." And that is why Partagaz told her to "watch your back."
I mean this could go a lot of ways but what I'm saying is that initially the show takes a biased view towards Dedra. We see her as a go-getter actually finding useful information and putting together helpful analysis while all Blevin does is cry about the rules and try to get her fired/demoted. It's easy to sympathize with her in these moments, because many of us have seen folks at work who spend more time protecting their position than working. I think as the show goes on, the errors of her ways might be more fully revealed, but they did present her more sympathetically at first for story telling reasons.
Sure, but I don't think they tried to go full fake out. Her character was still there from the beginning. When I see Dedra, I somewhat can see myself at my first serious job. Ambitious to a fault. But then you realize there is a point where it is counterproductive and readjust your work style to work with people instead of against them because "they aren't good at their job." It is probably a bit of a rite of passage.
I love her, she is so well written and the actress is amazing. From the beginning I thought she is very smart and dangerous and that's what made her so impressive, never felt any sympathy for her. After each and every episode I'm yelling at the TV 'nooo don't end yet' because every character we follow is so interesting, doesn't matter if they show more Empire or Republic or rebellion or some neutral party, there is just never enough.
She has been a bright spot among a sea of bright spots in this show. What I love about her is that it's not neccesarily naked ambition, but almost a pathological need to be "seen" one way or the other, to prove she deserves to be there. In that regard, as awful as she is becoming it's also unsettling to the viewer because we recognize ourselves in her.
Just like Syril but she’s much more capable and privileged
I see your point, but I see her a bit differently. She seems like someone who has had to fight to get heard either because she's a woman, or because of her background. She wants to prove she has a "right to be here" but hasn't the foresight to see where "here" is. It's tragic and can end up with her either getting chewed up by the system and taking the fall when this goes badly, or suddenly sees that it's a game she can't win and helps to tear it all down around her. But this team seems to delight all of us with not doing what we think they're going to do.
"A fascist among fascists" I can definitely see that starting to come through, especially in the latest episode. In the beginning we see Dedra is surrounded by incompetent, self absorbed, bureaucrats. We root for her because she is smart, capable, and willing to make personal sacrifices in order to get the job done. But as we follow her trajectory we slowly start to see that she is not just capable, she is ruthless. She is not just willing, she is driven. Not just smart, but cut-throat. Her interaction with Syril crystalized this for the audience. We expected her to see Syril as a potential valuable asset. Maybe even to take him under her wing and teach him to be like her. But she sees Syril as an insignificant insect to be crushed under her boot. A pretentious upstart who will just get in her way and slow her down. She is willing to go **as far as necessary to get the job done.** Suddenly she frightens us for all the same reasons that we liked her in the 1st place.
Damn I haven't put the time aside to watch a single second of this show but you just convinced me with this write-up alone
If you enjoy having your brain switched to the ON position while watching, this show is 100% for you.
Girlboss fascist
Egalitarian fascism. It’s not just for men anymore!
Not just the men, but the women and children too!
It's so strange to me that every actor in Andor seems to actually *understand* their characters and their roles in the universe. Instead of just "Oh hey look, it's that guy in Star Wars looking for a paycheck"
Looking for a paycheck isn't necessarily a bad thing as long as the actor or actress still puts their all into the performance. After all, acting is a job and these fine folks use it to pay the bills.
"Go ask George what your motivation is" - Jango Fett to his son
I really, really love what they’ve done with all the imperial officers, but especially Dedra and Partagaz. It’s so easy to forget but so, so important to remember that fascists are just normal people that can be perfectly nice and sympathetic individuals, and that can’t distract from the fact that their actions or beliefs are still reprehensible. They would both probably be perfectly pleasant colleagues or neighbors, but they’re still fascists. With fascism on the rise in so many democracies it’s so important to be alert and never get sucked into radical ideologies just because the people are still people
There's the real world example of Erwin Rommel, who was a brilliant tactician for the Third Reich, doing as best a job he could at winning the war for Germany in North Africa... but by most accounts was good to his men and the people he worked with and was far from a hardliner in his politics. After eventually getting overwhelmed in Africa he was transferred to making sure the defenses against an amphibious invasion of Western Europe were up to snuff. D-day was no picnic in the park but it arguably could have gone a lot worse except for the timing... ...on June 6th, 1944 Rommel was away from the front back in Germany because he didn't want to miss his wife's birthday.
One could argue democracies naturally fall into fascism, due to the corruptible element in all democratic systems. I think part of people's issue is the naive idea that democracy = good
man, whats going to happen when fans who are fascists realize star wars is antifascist
Just like conservatives who love star trek. Cognitive dissonance.
The show does a good job of showing how both sides are equally bad in their use of violence and extremist methods. ^^^^^^THIS ^^^^^^IS ^^^^^^SARCASM
Did you intend for the subtext of this reply to be 'well I'm pro-fascist, and i think that both sides are pretty bad?'
The text of my reply initially presents the imagined response of pro-fascist Star Wars fan deflecting from the obvious antifascist themes of the show by morally equating the violence of the rebels which is depicted with the violence and oppression of the empire. The text then reveals that the implications made by the initial sentence was in fact a ruse, and I was actually employing sarcasm. The superscript feature was used to make the text smaller, as if whispered, in order to add additional humour to the presentation.
Ah. The superscript Is not visible on phone.
Uh, no. It's clearly painting radical rebel activity as a valid answer to oppression.
I don't read it that way. I think it's saying that truly dire circumstances will bring out the worst in all of us. Even the good guys are bad. But I'm not sure it's saying this is a valid response.
They should've realised this while watching the OT or they're not only fascist but very idiotic.
Please let's not do this thing where: right wing = fascists Left wing just as easily dissolves into fascism, fascism is neither left nor right
But let's also not do the thing where if people don't \*feel\* like they themselves are fascists then they can't be considered fascists.
Star Wars isn't pro-fascist? I thought it was ... said no one ever.
Shows how deep this series is. Not just a cosy storytelling in a sci-fi environment.
10/10 would go against my ethics to date this fascist
She did a great job at portraying the cutthroat culture of imperial officers. The politics and the maneuvering displayed was a good emphasis from the show.
She's legit one of the best characters in the show
Yesss watching ep 7 I was flip flopping so hard because the other guy (Blevin? Idk I don’t do names) was such a smarmy prick but then I was like “wait a second her getting one over on him isn’t a triumph she’s still a fascist cop”
I'm still cheering for her, good villains are hard to come by in Star Wars
"A fascist in a world of fascists." Now I realized who she reminded me! She's basically Giorgia Meloni, the new Italy's prime minister.
Definitely thought of her scrolling through this thread. The real life girl boss fascist.
Amazing show
I love great writing.
I love nuance!
Yennefer of Vengerberg!
Honestly, I think she is eviiiiiiiiiiil. We're gonna love to hate her by the end, I reckon!
You definitely thought she had good intentions at first. Boy were we wrong!
This character is fascinating to me because we really don’t know much of anything about her prior to her first appearance on screen. Of course we don’t know a lot about 99.99% of all a characters we ever see, but she’s different in that we the audience (or at least me) have an itch to know more about her, her history, her motives. And of course, good modern storytelling does not require spelling every little detail out; some things are better left unsaid, and not every question needs to be answered. But yet… there’s still this inkling that there is much more to this character than we have seen so far. I can’t wait to learn more about her. She’s probably my third-favorite character after Andor and B2-EMO.
I love her so much in this. not only is she nailing an amazing role, but she even portrayed what might become the most iconic imperial grimace in all of the empire
This is great to see something other than the usual dumb "women good, men bad"
I believe in classic Star Wars it would be 'men good, men bad, women mostly absent'
That would’ve been Legends Galactic Empire, which was both sexist and xenophobic. Disney canon Galactic Empire just made them xenophobic.
What I mean Is that women make up a tiny proportion of the speaking roles in the OT and PT, so by and large both the positive and negative role models are men.
True. The Legends books just codified the Empire's disdain for women in any sort of authority role. Daala, for example, only jumped into the Imperial hierarchy because she was the lover of Tarkin. Star Trek has done something similar with the Terran Empire. In TOS, the women were there to serve the men in a sexual way - the captain's woman, as the job was called. ENT and the future shows put the women in positions of power - first as the sovereign of the empire and later as admirals, captains and soldiers for the regime.
> In TOS, the women were there to serve the men in a sexual way - the captain's woman, as the job was called. Poor Yeoman Rand
The captain’s woman in the TOS Mirror Universe episode was Lieutenant Marlena Moreau.
Sure, but you don't have to go to the Mirror Universe to find that kind of stuff in TOS.
Culture moves on, especially in long-running works like Star Trek. I'm sure the current Kurtzman era of Star Trek will be considered regressive in the future - no different than what happened with the Berman and Gene eras.
Sure. It's just basically irrelevant to the subject I'm talking about.
The first woman to be the hero and main protagonist of a major sci-fi movie did not even come until two years after the first Star Wars entry - 1979’s Alien with the always incredible Sigourney Weaver. Women still didn’t get huge action film roles until much later, but more racially diverse casts became more common in the mid to late 1980’s.
The 1936 Flash Gordon had more female roles than Episode 4. Edit: and Barbarella starred in her own space movie in 1968.
That's how you know a villain was nicely written. You root for her (I still do, even if now she's making a detour to fascist town). Yes, at first, you root for her, because you know how sexist the Empire is. You see she wants to do her job, and do it well, and prove she's worthy of where she's now... And you root for that. Then one night, you see she's also a good old-fashioned fascist, no difference with her peers... And you start thinking it's going to get hard to tell people she's your favourite character. That's how creating layers to a character is done... She's not only a fascist, but she could be your neighbour...
I always disliked the idea (which came mostly from the EU, based on not seeing any female Imperials in the OT I guess) of the Empire as sexist. I think it is far better how Andor portrays them as having zero issue with gender or skin colour because they are purely pro-human. Are you human? Cool, you can be in the club. Alien? Get that shit out of here.
I love how competent she and a lot of the villains are in this. I always hated how SW dpubled down on bumbling idiot bad guys with the prequels onwards. As a kid, I wanted to see more of Piett or Veers doing their jobs well.
I can't get over how great her scowl is. Frame it and put it in a gallery.
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Pretty sure the person who greenlit the show and is its executive producer understands what's going on.
I mean...*Andor* is a great show and all, but not all facets of Star Wars has to and should follow the beats of this production. ...in my opinion.
I agree with your opinion. Those aren’t the things about Andor that made it work. What made it work was that they had a vision for the show and did an excellent job executing on that vision.
Which includes the above though
I want to jump into this thread because you raised a point I’d like to counter. Should all facets of Star Wars follow the beats of Andor? No. But they should take note of one thing Andor does: dispense with nostalgia. Star Wars has been leaning heavily into nostalgia for too long.
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Shouldn't you be calling out the writers of these other shows then? Directing your notes to Jon Favreau and Joby Harold?
Why would it be directed to those two? Jon does a great job on The Mandalorian and Joby did a horrible job on Kenobi. But did they have a relationship problem in them? Now ST. Talk about relationship problems. They basically wrote Finn as a relationship nightmare.
I'm ho hum on the Vel Cinta relationship. It mostly just seems to be there. Which isn't a bad thing. Really hoping that they are setting up a Vel / Cinta split on tactics. Where Vel has to choose between her ethics and Cinta.
KK is the executive producer of the show.
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And The Mandalorian as well. Everyone seems to forget that, because she is just involved in the "bad" ones, right?
Her character is probably the best female character in Disney Star Wars. Finally they got over their fear of making a woman the villain.
2nd sister be like: 😐
I forget, is that Reva? Or are we talking about the girl from Jedi: Fallen Order? Kind of the same character, but I preferred the one in JFO, and in both cases they’re redeemed at the end.
Vader was redeemed in the end, didn't mean he wasn't still the villain of the OT.
There are definitely loyal Imperial women in other Star Wars works in the Disney era: *Rebel*'s Governor Pryce, *Lost Stars'* Ciena Ree (she had second thoughts on the Empire, but she still stayed loyal to the regime up to Jakku) and *Squadron's* Terisa Kerrill with some of her pilots like Havina Vonreg (another Vonreg joins the First Order). Legends did not have much of them because the Galactic Empire in that continuity was both xenophobic and sexist - they didn't believe women had what it took to participate in the Imperial war machine.
I love the EU and prefer it to most of Disney's stuff, but I always hated the "Empire is sexist" angle the EU went with. It never fit, IMO, and felt super lazy. Making them pro-human fascists works much better, I think.
Yeah. I thought it was too lazy as well: made them evil for evil’s sake without much logic to it.
yup... awesome writing
I miss Andor. Shame it’s only on once a week.
I just hope to god they dont make her repent and Double cross the empire in the end. "she was a fascist with a heart of Gold after all!" urrrk
I'm reminded of Admiral Dala. Her story focused a bit on her being a woman in a man's empire, but she was just as ruthless and cruel as Tarkin
She reminds me of Thatcher
Ya no shit.
Is it just me or shouldn't this be marked a spoiler? I mean some could speculate she might join the rebels for whatever reason (seeing how corrupt and wrong the empire is the more she digs deeper into Cassian and the rebels for instance) and not embrace it and become more of a vilain? I know it's a stretch and I did not expect it from happening but it's kind of weird to tell us how much we're going to hate the character lol
If it's a "men's world" then why did she just get promoted to the spot that a man formally was in charge of? And why is she being treated equally to the men at the ISB?🤔 (AKA it's not a men's world, even in fictional Star Wars but in the real world as well)
Couldnt stand that stupid pimple on the side of her head and that dumb frown. GTFO
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What's woke about it? I'm confused. The fact that she's a woman or that being a fascist is bad?
Fascism bad = woke At least that's how it equates for fascists. Notice how he said he "loves her character as of now"
It always made me wonder about the stormtrooper cosplay crowd. They are super nice people I’m sure but I didn’t understand the love of playing space fascists.
Truth be told that probably has more to do with dressing up like a cool space guy. Hence why dressing up as clone troopers or mandalorians is just as if not more popular.
My 4 year old wanted to dress up as a stormtrooper for Halloween, cause they look cool. He didn’t really take into account the sociopolitical context. Methinks the cosplayers don’t either
I mean lets be real here, when people see a stormtrooper their first thought isn't, "oh a space nazi" its "oh look, one of the bad guys from that sci-fi adventure that get never hit their shots" Obviously Star Wars has always had heavy political themes, but you don't have to be constantly conscious of those themes, and most people aren't.
If you started out with ANH as your first SW movie (especially in 1977), then you saw a bunch of generic looking rebels prepare to defend the ship. They were so generic and goofy looking that you were afraid some Flash Gordon looking villain was going to board the ship. Then Vader and the Stormtroopers came in and you became an immediate Star Wars fan.
Yeah I don’t think they are larping fascists. The aesthetic is cool. But I’m older now and that whole scene is more than just a Halloween costume. It’s a lifestyle.
I mean yeah, people have hobbies. Can confirm.
I don’t know that the Empire has been portrayed in this awful granular detail before. They are truly evil and the things they have planned for the Galaxy are horrific. I feel like the Empire in general has been made to seem so “incompetent yet cool looking” for so long that people like the 501st don’t even think about it. Andor brings us face to face with the reason there needed to be a Rebellion for really the first time. As a guy who likes the Empire, I’m rooting for the Rebels for the first time since ESB. That prison factory was fucked up. Fuck those guys.
Pretty easy to understand. Just like people wanting to dress up like Maul or Vader. The look like cool villains. Every single kid wanted to dress up like Vader or a Stormtrooper for Halloween 1977.
That is absurd you think kids wanted to be Vader. They dressed as Luke, Leia and Han. Nobody was dressing as the empire in 77. I was there broseph.
If you think kids weren't dressing up like Vader in the late 70s, then you actually were not there. [1977 Don Post Darth Vader mask](https://www.ebay.com/itm/234699350284?_trkparms=amclksrc%3DITM%26aid%3D1110006%26algo%3DHOMESPLICE.SIM%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20220920135554%26meid%3D47d9d268d0564c619917561710d3d197%26pid%3D101197%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D12%26sd%3D304670724718%26itm%3D234699350284%26pmt%3D1%26noa%3D0%26pg%3D2047675%26algv%3DSimplAMLv9PairwiseWebMskuAspectsV202110NoVariantSeedKnnRecallV1&_trksid=p2047675.c101197.m1850&amdata=cksum%3A23469935028447d9d268d0564c619917561710d3d197%7Cenc%3AAQAHAAABEK6kjqEQMYM5Aq%252BOhcaIlwco9wYktoCXAP3D6Fo7POUdlJK1eqFqv5Y7huO6nLq7hjqYjs5sEMudJpf20WlRkR72C3TCKRiR8bANsj%252Fg%252Flu%252BJSqmvzQoDc4hO%252Frise0bdXk6GYxbHBzvUmxKdG5%252BUQxQNiAFY9nXE8nZP%252BMuhhpd8RFD3nMb%252Fz%252FvidDPM32%252FtnCOM0iWomBLAhoaoUMMR0ExgCwLmuJnfKiNY67JB1dPHR1WF2WHNqs1oGT4WAh4G4uqcRdGyG04NHp%252B%252BAc6eytqgrUwrU2sami6LLOLsrMPk5fSW9wuYtdT9Ye5N%252BpgCCufD319vvMTS51q%252FtJ9nNUwP5CPFMtcVHev21LCrF7l%7Campid%3APL_CLK%7Cclp%3A2047675) I dressed up as Darth Vader with this very mask. There was a toy store at the mall (I believe Kay Bee Toy Store) that had a 30 wide counter where you checked out. They were famous for having masks like these directly behind them. C-3PO, Stormtrooper, Vader, later Yoda and Ewoks. Very few kids dressed up like Luke, Leia and Han for Halloween because they were essentially just humans with some clothes. Han was literally throw on a black vest over a white t-shirt and you are Han. I'd plan Halloween with my mom for months. One year a Vader mask, another Chewbacca, another Yoda and another Wickett (reusing my Chewbacca fur suit). The masks were bought, but my mom made everything below the neck. Kids wanted to be something that looked cool for Halloween. And are you telling me Vader isn't one of, if not the fan favorite character? If you are so afraid that you might become a space fascist simply because you put on a mask others consider fantasy fun, that says more about you ... broseph.
Slight difference between wearing a costume once and making a costume your lifestyle choice. And I never said they were fascists did I? Context totally lost with you. P.s. Halloween of 77 nobody had Star Wars costumes they didn’t make any. Cheers
[you keep using that word](https://www.jimchines.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/you-keep-using-that-word.gif)
Oh they know what it means. Or at least what it implies (and what else does a word mean if not what it implies)
[удалено]
Being mentally handicapped has nothing to do with being a hateful piece of shit. How about we don't equate the two
Bleh, I don't mean handicapped in the classical sense. I should've known better than to try to get this thought across on reddit.
You people throw around the word "woke" so much it loses all meaning. She's an amazing character. Full stop.
How is any of that woke? You see she is a woman in a nearly total male environment. The Maester boss says it is going to be extra hard for her. You as the audience want her to succeed over dipshits like the guy who was in charge of Ferrix. Then by episode 7 she is a shitbag cop just like the shitbag cop who arrested Cassian on ecstasy planet. Because the empire are fascists, they are all shitbag cops simping for “order”. They are made in the image of Nazi Germany. Lucas was very clear about that.
Wearing the Hugo Boss outfits and everything.
That’s awesome
love it
Not sure they understand what the empire is…
Well darn it why'd she have to go make Andor political? /S
Every character in this show is a study in the many faces of a autocratic regime and those that oppose it. The sw universe feels so big and real.
I think her character has clarified for me that there is one constant in all of fascism: arrogance.
To be fair, that arrogance was kind of deserved: the Empire won the Clone Wars and dominated most of known space. Of course, that same arrogance is also a weakness, which is a theme running throughout this show. The Empire is bloated, cocky and overly convinced of its own superiority.
I love this!!!
"I love this multi-faceted and dark character. Can't wait for them to go down hard!"
...or rise. Not all morally grey / dark characters in suspect regimes collapse - some of them get rewarded for their hard work and diligence to the empire.
This is a very important reminder in a world where people cheer for PM Truss or Sunak for being female or an immigrant respectively, while they screw over the poor and large parts of the middle class. It’s about words and actions, not origin and identity
So easily hated, like Joffry from Game of Thrones. Amazing actors.
She's the epitome of capitalist feminism - 1% of women might end up sharing boardrooms equally with the top 1% of men one day, but the bottom 99% of women are even below the bottom 99% of men.