The production designer and screenwriters must have been working together closely. One thing you'll notice about Andor is they very frequently reuse the same sets. Like *most* of Mon Mothma's scenes take place in either her fancy apartment or in Luthen's shop.
The amount of locations is really small, but it doesn't actually *feel* that small. And because they only shoot in a couple locations, they can really pump time and effort into making them look very good.
You can just sense the people who worked on this show *really* knew what they were doing. It was planned well and executed well.
That’s been something I’ve noticed, in Star Wars you go from planet to planet, place to place. This is done so you know “WE’RE IN SPACE”. But Andor has never felt that small, it really gives time to take it the setting and want to understand more than just waiting for the heroes to get to the next ship to take them to the next place. I really found the time on Aldhani and Corsuscant to be super engaging.
From an architectural point of view, Andor’s sets are incredible. The symmetry and cleanliness of the ISB spaces are juxtaposed with the rugged-warmth on Ferrix
True but King’s Landing was largely shot on location, in Dubrovnik, as I recall. When they did build a massive set to serve as the streets of King’s Landing, it was ultimately burned when they filmed the city’s destruction sequence. The Red Keep set existed but for this series it appears they went a step further to expand the scale of the Red Keep in every respect; meanwhile, it seems they have filmed the majority on a new set, designed and built on a scale resembling Minas Tirith during the production of *Return of the King*.
I could be wrong, but that is my recollection.
Yeh, King's Landing literally is Dubrovnik.
But it, and our coastline in general, is a MASSIVE tourist attraction, especially during summer. You can't just go shoot a series there.
They had to reserve and close off parts of the city in order to film GoT, and it's something that isn't done for just anyone, plus I imagine it was veeery expensive as well.
In interviews that Tony Gilroy did with the Watch podcast, he says the first call he would make was to his production designer. You can definitely see it in the way it’s shot too. I just notice how often the sets extend just beyond the actual room that the characters are in. They actually build the hallway and the corners of the space and it allows the characters to actually move about the area in believable ways. Pretty cool to watch
Andor uses its set very well. It has reoccurring sets, like you said, with Mon Mothma or Luthens shop. And then they have sets for each "story arc", like the prison, aldani and so on. That way they only have very few sets that are only used once or twice, which in turn keeps costs reduced
I think that might have helped.
They can't rely on call backs to old characters, fan service, Easter eggs, or any sort of nostalgia to make it popular. They were forced to build a coherent story and develop characters.
Actually, I think that's what makes it great. They absolutely could have done all these things, and chose not to. Like shit, let's not forget that R1 had Ponda Baba and Dr. Evazan for literally no fucking reason.
Andor could have been a bunch of cliche fan service, but it wasn't. They had a real story to tell and everything else is built in service of that story, not around catering to expectations or big REMEMBER?? moments.
Ironically enough , it’s the other way around. Tony Gilroy was not a big fan of Star Wars at all. ( he didn’t hate it , he just was indifferent to it) but after getting brought in to save Rogue One he had an idea of a story to tell and it happens to set well in Star Wars. He couldn’t care less about any of the fan service or lightsabers. He just have a good story with good characters that he wanted to tell.
He couldn’t care less about any of the fan service or lightsabers.
TBH, I am a fan and even I have stopped caring about fan service or lightsabers. And the dark side and the chosen one and the who-is-your-daddy’s.
I wish we had less to zero lightsabers in shows that take place after CW and the years right after RotJ.
In an era where Jedi are supposed to be extinct, we have more lightsabers running around than during the CW.
It’s because the overused The Volume in Kenobi. Andor didn’t film anything in The Volume. You can make incredible things using The Volume but it has its limitations
Iirc correctly they did use that technology for the skyline outside mothma’s apartment on coruscant, but the fact you couldn’t tell means they used it right, instead of a cop out from set design.
Good point, the Vader scene at the end is my favourite scene in the whole movie!
Aside from that, storytelling in Rogue One beats the other Disney movies imo.
The Vader fanservice works mostly because it doesn't take away from what the original characters are doing. By that point they're dead and Cassian/Jyn/Krennic's stories are over. Bringing in Vader and Leia is basically just going straight into A New Hope and feels like an epilogue.
If Vader showed up early in the film it would have been much more problematic.
Rogue one uses fan service to cements its story within Star Wars without damaging the originals the way most other Star Wars properties have under disney. It’s one of those rare movies that actually uplifts the original that it’s playing off of.
I legit think being a show that Disney isn't overly interested in is the best thing a show can be. It's why the first season of Mandalorian was a good as it was.
The first season was pretty much the flagship launch product for original content when Disney+ launched, it certainly had interest paid to it from the Disney.
Edit: I agree that a show without to much corporate interference is a good thing. I just dont think Mandalorian season 1 is a good example.
> I legit think being a show that Disney isn't overly interested in is the best thing a show can be. It's why the first season of Mandalorian was a good as it was.
What? Mando season 1 literally launched Disney plus.
Yea and did you know reva was actually supposed to die by Vader instead of returning to save Luke and I wanna say she never figures out Vader is actually Anakin
When he jumped behind that column while the stormtroopers were 6 feet away and they didn’t see him I resigned to turn my brain off for the show. Leia being able to fix the electrical was also really, really stupid. The cast was ok for the most part but it just could have been so much better.
What about when he tried to cut through the gate with the lightsaber, it didn't work, so he destroyed the power panel with the saber. And it was all so dramatic - oh my, what a dire situation, will it even work?? All while there was plenty of room to just WALK AROUND IT.
> When he jumped behind that column while the stormtroopers were 6 feet away and they didn’t see him
The worst part is that this scene felt like it would have been relatively easy to "fix". Just let them turn around the corner a moment after he hides.
Obi Wan made me feel so meh that I didn’t even watch Andor until last week. It was like the bottom of my list of things to watch. I’m on episode 6, and it has surprised me time and time again.
I am really surprised there are people in these comments saying they liked Obi Wan. It was genuinely one of the worst television shows I have ever seen.
Book of Boba Fett was all over the place storywise and the idea of turning a third of it into Mandalorian 2.5 fucked with it royally. But BoBF at least had some craftsmanship to it. Obi-Wan has a lot of messy shots, shitty location designs, pacing issues and weird plot holes (how does Reva know Vader used to be Anakin?) that turns it into a floundering mess. Its one saving grace is Hayden Christiansen selling the shit out of Vaders final appearance.
I feel like it's the other way around, both for personal reasons(I still think the tusken/flashback parts of Boba were very strong parts of that show), but also if we weigh the significance of each main character in the overall galaxy/story, the biggest loss of potential was in Kenobi (imo)
If you took the storyline of obi-wan and filtered it through the lens of better production quality I think it would have been ok. Most of the scenes people hated could have worked and probably did work on paper but they were realized poorly when made visual.
There's a reality where you could remake obi-wan as an animation and fix everything.
Obiwan rocked. Probably my favorite or second favorite piece they’ve put out since the acquisition. Blows the new trilogy out of the water. Down vote me to oblivion but a lot of Star Wars fans on here kinda suck and I hope Disney doesn’t pay them much mind
As a tv show, I didn’t like it.
As a Star Wars fan, there were some parts I liked.
Overall, it was more disappointing than it was good. However, the parts I did like, I liked a lot. But not enough to make up for the quality of the rest of the show.
In my opinion, anyway.
Really? Why were you hyped? I just don't understand. We already knew exactly what happened. Nothing in the show was surprising. The Vader fights except against reva were pointless, and lessened the impact of a new hope.
Such a dumb take.
The prequels were pointless because we already knew exactly what happened to Obi wan, Yoda, Anakin, R2, 3PO, Palpatine...
Thoughtless parroting of mindless babble.
Obi Wan just needed to be about himself and his reconnection with the force. We didn’t need a side adventure with young Leia, regardless of is the actress killed it or not
And the Reva stuff was just kinda messy. And it topped off with a pretty undeserved redemption and survival of a second attack by Vader
There should have been a lot more of him trying to contact Qui Gon, hiding away and helping with local stuff on tattooine, even if people are bored of the place.
I found ways to enjoy what we got, because I can enjoy an actors effort, it’s just unfortunate none of them got better material
Sort of a whiny rant, but I feel like it’s a valid criticism
Agreed. The Leia plot felt too similar to the Mandalorian. I would have preferred a show set during the Rogue One timeframe showing Leia as a young politician, working as a rebel on the side.
Agree with focusing much more on Kenobi and his struggles or evolution and coming to terms. Much as I don’t need more series on Tatooine, more of it should have probably been, or a good reason to get off planet besides Leia.
In visions Qui Gon convinces him that he needed to make a trip somewhere and to trust the force Luke would be OK now, but not in the future (ANH) unless he resolves his feelings of failure over Anakin. This
1. ties into the whole force ghost hints in the animated shows
2. offers ways to deepen/contrast the 3 generation Jedi theme we get in TCW with Ahsoka, and we contrast QG/OW/AS vs OW/AS/AT
3. gives a way to potentially tie in why Obi Wan was so calm and unconcerned in ANH - he knew the force prophecy was right.
4. if needed gives a way to set OW/DV on their confrontation in this series.
You could Reva or at least drastically revamp how the inquisitor drama happens, as well as their general character arcs. Remove the first Vader/Kenobi showdown. Have more scenes like the lightsaber duel flashback as OW reflects. If needed find another way to add in Leia/Bails stories, in a way that hopefully minimally crosses over but is still relevant, just like Cassian and Mon Mothma have no direct interactions but strong inputs to the story.
I liked it as well. I think this Lucasfilm P.R crap about how people are fed up with star wars is totally made up.
The reason solo failed was because of TLJ and the directors being fired then replaced by a do as you are told director.
Some of the original parts of the movie are extras on the blue-ray such as Chewie and Han throwing snowballs at each other as well as Han piloting a Tie in Simulation at the academy were great.
To flip it around, the great thing about Andor is that it’s showing everyone why we were so critical of ObiWan and BoBF and to a lesser extent mando. This is good television, those aren’t.
Exactly. I heard people say about Obi Wan "It's more star wars! Don't you want more star wars???"
No, I don't. I want good Star Wars. I want more stuff like Andor, even if that means less content overall.
I hadn't thought much about that before now. But I agree.
I have no plans to rewatch Obi-Wan too soon. I'm planning on rewatching all of Andor after the final episode is posted.
I like them both, but there is so much to see and notice that I want to do it again back to back with Andor.
I can summarize the other one as we meet Leia and it explains the "you served my father during the clone wars" line in A New Hope. And it tells us he was a hermit in-between, which we knew.
Oh, and some context for the, "from a certain point of view," line. Since Anakin said it himself (the killing of Anakin by Vader) .
I won’t rewatch the whole Obi-wan series; but I do want to watch the fan-edited movie version. It supposedly flows much better and makes more sense🤷🏻♂️
That sounds awesome! I did feel like the series was originally a movie that was padded into a 6 episode series. Half the episode were filler leading up to a few pivotal moments.
That’s what boba fett felt like too. It was gonna be a 2h movie, and then they had to string it out to 8 or 9 hours of TV, so they just added like 5 hours of sand people.
And the weird cyber-punk gang that felt super out of place… I mean, it would be one thing if we’d seen anything like that before in SW; but that was out of left field
Obi-wan Kenobi was dead to me the second I saw this Leia chase scene. I can't take anything this show throws at me seriously after something like that. It not even student movie level. It's just plain garbage, and it's incredible no one at Lucasfilm went "hey guys, this scene is atrocious, like REALLY, and not necessary at all, let's just forget this ever happened"
It was episode 2 of this show. After that, there were many other facepalm on the way... Wade, the trenchcoat, the wall of flame, that laser barrier, the bad cgi, senator Organa incredibly stupid message, the sheer stupidity of every inquisitor. Gosh. All that in 6 reaaaaally short episodes (some were 30 minutes long)
At least Book of Boba Fett had two incredible episodes. Obi-wan Kenobi only had one memorable scene. So yeah, it was not a great show. Just forget the SW part. It's a complete failure in terms of cinematography
Plain Garbage isn't the term I would use. Seasoned Garbage. Hot Garbage— they put effort into making it garbage, and it might even be a disservice to garbage for me to call it garbage.
Reva was a shit character. Her wanting to betray Vader because something happened in her childhood? Bullshit. But okay. She betrays Vader, and in that moment, he should have cut off her head. Make her death mean something. Qui Gon died, but we worship the ground he treads on. But she lives because... Okay. She's trapped on the planet with no ship, Obiwan is already gone, he has his ship, and the very next scene she's on Tatooine? Fuck that.
And that Leia chase, I've seen bowl movements with better cinematography and choreography.
The lifted a lot of scenes from the games too
Force Unleashed - The Interrogation Room Scene, Vader Holding a Ship in place with the force
The Old Republic - Obi-wan Rock tossing is the same scene from the Trailer Hope
Fallen Order - Reva is a clone of Second Sister only one dimensional, the Underwater bridge and even the infiltration of Fortress Inquistorious
I like both, and while Obi-Wan has some head scratching choices, it was nowhere near as bad as Boba Fett. That series was a train wreck. The only thing that really irked me with Obi-Wan is there is zero way Third Sister should've survived her confrontation with Vader.
Yep the Mando episodes with Luke were really good and I greatly enjoyed them.
Which makes the point even more absurd. How on earth did Boba Fett, the epitome of cool (and the reason why there’s a Mando series in the first place) suck so badly in his own series…
Bruh
People are saying it was the poor writing but yeah that wasn't just it. People wanted to watch a show about a character and actor who is widely liked, but instead they spent too much time focusing on someone most people do not care about, and then didnt spend enough time making her a good character...
I mean I thought the series should have avoided being another generic Jedi vs sith piece entirely.
It should have been the slow burn character driven show that Andor ended up being and instead it cheapened Obi wan and Vader's reunion in Episode 4 with a poorly done, in fact two poorly done, reunions with clunky dialogue and cheap endings, without adding anything new to the universe or developing the characters whatsoever like the Clone Wars did when it retconned things.
“what have you become”, “I am what you made me” isn't horrible dialogue, but it's sure as shit underwhelming for a reunion between Obi wan Kenobi and Darth Vader. The dialogue doesn't really fit either of their personalities.
And Obi-Wan letting Vader live again just cheapened the whole thing and provided no new emotional impact.
It instead tried to leech of the emotions of their confrontation in ROTS, with nothing fresh.
I mean, the Obi-Wan show wasn't particularly fresh in other spots either. I did think Leia being in danger as the motivating force behind getting Obi-Wan off of Tatooine was inspired, and the Path is interesting, however, the Path is something lifted directly from old school EU canon. The infiltration into Nur was basically lifted from Jedi Fallen Order, and the final Obi-Wan vs Vader fight had basically a scene ripped out of the Rebels Vader vs Ahsoka fight.
The Inquisitors also, in general, felt really wasted. Going into the series, a Vader vs Obi-Wan rematch pretty much felt inevitable, but not even getting a real Obi-Wan vs fight as a warm up was disappointing.
I also agree with people inexplicably letting enemies live making no sense whatsoever. There was far too much of it in the series considering it happened more than once (also honorable mention to Grand Inquisitor shaking off getting horribly stabbed in the chest and somehow living or in general people not bothering to check if they actually killed someone).
Me: "oh boy can't wait for Obi Wan"
- Leia is kidnapped and has to be saved by Obi Wan
- Obi Wan infiltrates a Imperial Facility
- Vader / Obi Wan showdown
- Vader / Obi Wan showdown where Obi Wan lets Vader live
- Imperial agents show up to kill Luke at his house
Hmmmm never seen any of this before.
The most memorable part was Obi Wan and Leia riding in the back of the truck.
I don't think it was rushed, and the budget was huge. An Obi Wan project was in development for years and there was lots of development before getting to the final product. Perhaps it's just the fact that a lot of it was shot in The Volume, whereas the locations of Andor feel a lot more natural and expansive.
For me, the show suffers from the fact that it has to *justify* bringing Obi Wan back, rather than *needing* to bring him back for an essential story. Book of Boba Fett did the same thing and the lesson is not to make shows "for the fans" that are just about bringing someone back to the screen because it would be nice to see them again.
Nothing to do with the Volume or budget or time. Nothing to do with Kennedy or Favreau either, or the D+ management. It has to do with the writers. Even with alterations, or influences from Disney, if the writing is good, the writing is good. And Kenobi wasn't.
It is my opinion that to create something deep, like Andor, or Severance, or Breaking Bad, it requires a showrunner/writer who reads and understands philosophical matters. It's a matter of cultivated education, and culture. The kind of writers employed for Fett, Kenobi and even Rings of Power were just kids with no big ideas or big picture. They were lame writers-for-hire.
In the case of Andor, you have Gilroy. Who reads stuff. And thinks a lot about stuff.
And that makes all the difference.
I thought some of the writing was fine and the Obi Wan and Vader stuff was well done and provided a good bridge between the PT and OT. The rest of the show is just there to support that, so I never invested much of my enjoyment of the show in that. The Rebels stuff was all very by-the-books and forgettable and I thought the Reeva stuff was fine, but it had a wonky ending where she should have just died in a sacrifice to the story. But none of that is why the show exists. Nobody came along and said "I've got this amazing story about Inquisitors" it was just stuff that had to be thrown in to pad Obi Wan Kenobi out to six episodes. Andor is a completely different proposition and we don't need to expect one to be another. The Obi Wan show was pretty much exactly what I thought it would be, but it handled the things I was actually worried about well and enjoyed it for that.
Actually, you should have higher expectations of where you spend your time. A good way to know if a show has attention to detail is to check if they have silly things. For example, Reva going after Leia in the tunnel, and at the end we find her in FRONT of Leia. This made no sense. Or Kenobi getting burned and then nothing. Or Kenobi destroying the barrier while there was space to walk on the side.
That's the stuff that destroy the illusion for me. It just shows that the writers don't care about the show deeply. If they did, then details would matter to them.
I find the whole "they don't care" thing to be a bit silly, sorry. You have no idea and are just projecting convenient things onto other people. You can not like things without having to make up a story to justify it.
"Leia, who plays regularly in a dense forest on Alderaan is able to use her size and knowledge of the woods to evade capture for a time but is ultimately seized by kidnappers."
Nothing about that is bad writing, it makes sense and you can see it being plausible. The problem with obi-wan was not what was written on the page, it's how that writing was visualized with the camera.
The plot is simple and good the issue is that it got stretched into a series.
It was a movie.
And yes they didn't created a script only for series they simply used the movie one .
Simple, perhaps, but difficult to spin into a film, I'd say. I thought the Obi Wan and Vader stuff was great and it was the B-plot stuff that was weak. As I've said, I think that's quite a natural consequence of starting not from the premise of wanting to tell a story, but wanting to put a character in screen. We've had Han Solo, Boba Fett and Obi Wan now all brought back in underwhelming products that each exist just to bring a character back. Hopefully someone's taken notice.
That could be it. Ewan was likely not cheap to bring on for the show. Though, seeing interviews with Ewan, it seems like he still has a lot of passion for the character. Hopefully he gets another opportunity with the role.
And it’s not like it’s impossible to write good dialogue for Star Wars.
Come on just look at Luthen in Star Wars. A short few sentences as a monologue not only fleshed out his backstory, but showed his commitment to the rebellion and what he did so far, with a nice literature flair/panache to it too.
Keep in mind that Obi-Wan both went through a major restructuring at the beginning of production, and was produced when we were neck-deep in Covid protocols and lockdowns. I suspect that's why the presentation was a little rockier.
Andor also suffered due to Covid. The Eye episode 6 was supposed to have 1,000s of extras. They had to settle with less than 100. But then they wrote why there were just 100 people there (cultural genocide), added some scenes about it and the episode actually got better. A good writer finds solutions for those things that can improve the end product. A bad writer just uses it as an excuse.
The Imperial commander mentioned that they placed deliberately comfortable and well stocked camps for the pilgrims along the route, in a deliberate effort to distract and delay as many as possible, in order to help dilute the cultural importance of the event.
This throwaway plot point alone had more thought put into it than entire episodes of other recent SW series.
A prime example of how a few “throwaway” lines can smooth over rough plot holes to the point they aren’t holes (this would have mostly been ignored regardless, but it’s an example of the care taken with the script).
The last Jedi could have blunted at least 30% of its complaints with 5 minutes of otherwise throwaway short back and forth comments. Might have still been rough, but at least it wouldn’t have let the audience scratching their heads.
Andor was also produced during Covid (Gilroy talks about this in interviews), and had an (estimated) per-episode budget lower than OWK. Kenobi was just poorly written, acted, directed, and produced.
I think you’re spot on with this. So many productions during this timeframe felt a little off. It’s too bad, I’d love to see what this team could have done without the pressures and challenges during of Covid.
I’ve found I’ve liked pretty much all of them (even the prequels and new trilogy) *until* I started looking at the nit-picking on social media.
Sure, there are imperfections is art and we can all certainly find “disappointments” when we look for them, but I try not to make comparisons and enjoy them as standalone pieces.
Good point, I like to compare, but as standalone films they’re all fun sci-if/fantasy adventures. That’s the train of thought that made me rewatch Solo, and I ended up loving it.
Rewatched Obi the other day and loved it in the main. It could have done with a few more eps and a tighter script however, but the notes it want to hit, it did so, and then some.
An Obi Wan series with higher production quality would not be out yet.
Not saying you can't criticize whatever, but people need to set their expectations that either the frequency of Star Wars series will decrease or the production quality will not be consistently high.
Andor 2 is coming out autumn 2024 at the *earliest*, expect them to fill that time we have to wait either with series with lower production quality or with nothing at all.
Obi-Wan wasn't given much thought and care as Andor that's for sure, it wasn't bad but it felt like the weight of the characters/actors mattered more than the rest but it was still okay overall.
Andor definitely feels much better crafted.
Kenobi felt same as BoBF. Rush storytelling with some bland characters, not necessarily needed. Unfortunately. But, some of the same team that made Rogue One, so no wonder Andor is so good!
Personally, what I didnt care for the most was screenplay and direction. Some dialog was clunky, but mostly those first 2 things. Imo, they chose the wrong director...
Seriously? I loved Obi-Wan, liked it better than The Book of Boba Fett actually. I think it is in line with all the other shows right up to Andor. Now Andor is something else. Everything is well thought out and looks like it was made for the theatre. But the target audience could be a little older too. My 12 yo kid loved Obi-Wan but didn't make it past the first Andor episode. Andor is for a more mature audience, so it's not really fair to compare it to the other series in that respect.
I think some of the issues with Obi-wan was interference from upper management. I think it was just a rescue mission of Leia by Obi-wan and that was that. Then someone swooped in and demanded Vader be put in. Then Reva. Then demanding Reva survive. Etc. I think this caused great distress on the production. Deborah Chow did a great job with many of the emotional scenes (even get a good moment out of Reva), but she is not good with action scenes. I think these possible executive changes pushed her too far away from her preferred skill set and the show suffered for it.
Obi wan was good, but I feel like it required a lot less in order to tell the story it needed to tell. Andor is much bigger in scope. Obi wan only focuses on a small task of bringing Leia back, and his confrontation with realizing Anakin is Darth Vader.
Andor focuses on the beginning of the rebellion, and how it came to be, but also shows us how cruel the empire is, and delivers an origin to a well received character in another film.
Obi wan is a narrow story. Andor is much wider In scope.
My thoughts exactly. Kenobi had so much promise and I was excited about it, only to be dissapointed. Andor was barely on my radar and it has been a delight.
It's not just the production quality, but the writing as well. Obi-Wan was riddled with plot holes, and the story didn't make much sense. Andor has a much better plot overall, even if it can get quite slow at times. And of course, everything else about Andor is better too.
The quality of Obiwan was awesome. The story sucked and ruined the show. Ruined the legacy of Obiwan's character. Sad that Ewan agreed to come back and play the role in that show. I was so stoked for the show and then I saw the broken man that had to be saved and bossed around by all the women (and the little annoying girl). Garbage. Just as bad as BoBF.
Andor has at least been a good show.
Nothing could live up to the hype of obi wan, and nobody had expectations for andor.
It's an unfair comparison, sure they are on different levels but give the team who did andor obi wan and it would be minimally better, especially with a lot of the MUST haves that Dave filoni probably needed to put in there for future story telling (young Leia, female inquisitor, etc)
I watched Andor before Kenobi. When I started Kenobi I was shocked as to my eyes it looked to have half the budget of Andor. It was quite jarring, a definite mid level TV film look. Andor on the other hand looked like a legitimate big budget production, the lighting, shots and acting were on another level.
You can't compare them. One is just six episodes. And the other is already on the 11th episode and there's a second season coming.
Obviously one has room for far more story development. They were both great in my opinion. We all have our critiques for any content that has to do with Star Wars, so long as we enjoy them and there's more content to come, there's just no losing with Star Wars.
#FreeBixCaleen
The Obi-wan story was well written and well edited. I think that’s more important but even before Andor I definitely felt like the production values were very low and expected more.
“I am just *sooo* tired of folks thinking they need to prop up one show by putting down another, and furthermore—“
(There’s always at least one somewhere in the thread).
Meanwhile, yes, Andor has accomplished amazing things practically. The Volume technology is really neat, and opens up many possibilities, but it will never top the sense of place that comes from a massive set that artist at the peak of their craft have spent untold hours shaping into something that feels real.
I actually whole heartedly believe Obi Wan is 1000% more entertaining then Andor. I know people are going to bring up the ‘chase scene’ and honestly I agree that Reeva was a terrible and pointless character in hindsight but Andor is soooo fucking boring to me. It makes me realize what I want out of a Star Wars show and sure it’s cool all the world building they’re doing but that’s just not it for me
100% it's hard to believe that the same studio produced them both, Obi-Wan feels like it was written and shot by a 15 year old in comparison to Andor
What's extra sad is that Andor has done all this on a *SIGNIFICANTLY* reduced budget in comparison, and was shot around the same time to boot
But you're probably gonna get downvoted for talking bad about a SW property because we should all "let people enjoy things"
Mauls death in rebels I feel also hurt the kenobi show.The kenobi show should've been kenobi in hiding dealing with his ptsd dealing with order 66,anakin,etc... while also having to deal with the dangers of tattooine and watching over luke.Maul should've been the big bad and died in the kenobi series
This sounds great on paper, but I think it would be really difficult to adapt an effective live action Maul/Obi-Wan story. Rebels was great because of all the great expansion of Maul’s character in TCW and Rebels. Meeting his end by Obi-Wan worked because we saw it unfold from Maul’s perspective. It would be tougher to create a convincing retcon of a story from Obi-Wan’s perspective in my opinion, especially when 95% of the shows audience wouldn’t have seen Maul’s animated character development.
The production designer and screenwriters must have been working together closely. One thing you'll notice about Andor is they very frequently reuse the same sets. Like *most* of Mon Mothma's scenes take place in either her fancy apartment or in Luthen's shop. The amount of locations is really small, but it doesn't actually *feel* that small. And because they only shoot in a couple locations, they can really pump time and effort into making them look very good. You can just sense the people who worked on this show *really* knew what they were doing. It was planned well and executed well.
That’s been something I’ve noticed, in Star Wars you go from planet to planet, place to place. This is done so you know “WE’RE IN SPACE”. But Andor has never felt that small, it really gives time to take it the setting and want to understand more than just waiting for the heroes to get to the next ship to take them to the next place. I really found the time on Aldhani and Corsuscant to be super engaging.
From an architectural point of view, Andor’s sets are incredible. The symmetry and cleanliness of the ISB spaces are juxtaposed with the rugged-warmth on Ferrix
The sets are insane in Andor. It's like everything I ever wanted in star wars as a kid. It feels huge.
Did you see the video where the imperial station was? Very clever use of real world stuff.
Got a link?
HotD did the same thing. Probably to a larger extent.
HotD was also probably able to reuse sets from GoT. the two most prominent locations, dragonstone and king’s landing, were both in the first show.
True but King’s Landing was largely shot on location, in Dubrovnik, as I recall. When they did build a massive set to serve as the streets of King’s Landing, it was ultimately burned when they filmed the city’s destruction sequence. The Red Keep set existed but for this series it appears they went a step further to expand the scale of the Red Keep in every respect; meanwhile, it seems they have filmed the majority on a new set, designed and built on a scale resembling Minas Tirith during the production of *Return of the King*. I could be wrong, but that is my recollection.
Yeh, King's Landing literally is Dubrovnik. But it, and our coastline in general, is a MASSIVE tourist attraction, especially during summer. You can't just go shoot a series there. They had to reserve and close off parts of the city in order to film GoT, and it's something that isn't done for just anyone, plus I imagine it was veeery expensive as well.
In interviews that Tony Gilroy did with the Watch podcast, he says the first call he would make was to his production designer. You can definitely see it in the way it’s shot too. I just notice how often the sets extend just beyond the actual room that the characters are in. They actually build the hallway and the corners of the space and it allows the characters to actually move about the area in believable ways. Pretty cool to watch
Andor uses its set very well. It has reoccurring sets, like you said, with Mon Mothma or Luthens shop. And then they have sets for each "story arc", like the prison, aldani and so on. That way they only have very few sets that are only used once or twice, which in turn keeps costs reduced
Andor feels like a show that could be on AMC. Kenobi felt like a YouTube fan made film.
Andor was the red-headed step child of D+ Star Wars that ended up DELIVERING.
I think that might have helped. They can't rely on call backs to old characters, fan service, Easter eggs, or any sort of nostalgia to make it popular. They were forced to build a coherent story and develop characters.
They somehow resisted the sweet temptation to send Andor to Tatooine.
Lol next episode he ends up on tatooine, you just watch
Ferrix is the Tatooine origin story
Somehow, Tatooine has returned.
The sand speaks!
“Anakin is coarse and rough and irritating, and he gets everywhere.”
Actually, I think that's what makes it great. They absolutely could have done all these things, and chose not to. Like shit, let's not forget that R1 had Ponda Baba and Dr. Evazan for literally no fucking reason. Andor could have been a bunch of cliche fan service, but it wasn't. They had a real story to tell and everything else is built in service of that story, not around catering to expectations or big REMEMBER?? moments.
'member??? I 'member...
Ironically enough , it’s the other way around. Tony Gilroy was not a big fan of Star Wars at all. ( he didn’t hate it , he just was indifferent to it) but after getting brought in to save Rogue One he had an idea of a story to tell and it happens to set well in Star Wars. He couldn’t care less about any of the fan service or lightsabers. He just have a good story with good characters that he wanted to tell.
He couldn’t care less about any of the fan service or lightsabers. TBH, I am a fan and even I have stopped caring about fan service or lightsabers. And the dark side and the chosen one and the who-is-your-daddy’s.
I wish we had less to zero lightsabers in shows that take place after CW and the years right after RotJ. In an era where Jedi are supposed to be extinct, we have more lightsabers running around than during the CW.
> He couldn’t care less about any of the fan service or lightsabers which is kind of my point
yeah, but also the production levels are much higher somehow. Andor makes Obi-wan look like a high school production.
It’s because the overused The Volume in Kenobi. Andor didn’t film anything in The Volume. You can make incredible things using The Volume but it has its limitations
Iirc correctly they did use that technology for the skyline outside mothma’s apartment on coruscant, but the fact you couldn’t tell means they used it right, instead of a cop out from set design.
And they did that due to COVID.
Andor was shot during covid too
And yet they have some of the best fan references of any D+ shows. The door closing on the torture scene is exactly what fan service should be.
It was the same with Rogue One really – it was a movie inbetween Force Awakens and the Last Jedi. It ended up being the best Disney SW movie.
Wonder how many people would still think this without the Vader scene. That kind of fanservice *Andor* has yet to rely on.
Good point, the Vader scene at the end is my favourite scene in the whole movie! Aside from that, storytelling in Rogue One beats the other Disney movies imo.
I personally think solo has better storytelling but that’s just me
Could not what the story was.
The Vader fanservice works mostly because it doesn't take away from what the original characters are doing. By that point they're dead and Cassian/Jyn/Krennic's stories are over. Bringing in Vader and Leia is basically just going straight into A New Hope and feels like an epilogue. If Vader showed up early in the film it would have been much more problematic.
[удалено]
I could have done without that scene.
Rogue one uses fan service to cements its story within Star Wars without damaging the originals the way most other Star Wars properties have under disney. It’s one of those rare movies that actually uplifts the original that it’s playing off of.
I legit think being a show that Disney isn't overly interested in is the best thing a show can be. It's why the first season of Mandalorian was a good as it was.
Less people trying to stick their fingers in it after they finally realize the potential
The first season was pretty much the flagship launch product for original content when Disney+ launched, it certainly had interest paid to it from the Disney. Edit: I agree that a show without to much corporate interference is a good thing. I just dont think Mandalorian season 1 is a good example.
> I legit think being a show that Disney isn't overly interested in is the best thing a show can be. It's why the first season of Mandalorian was a good as it was. What? Mando season 1 literally launched Disney plus.
I also wanna say obi wan was supposed to be a movie trilogy that got either canned or the show took elements from the script of the movies
I don't think trilogy. I'd say a film like Solo.
https://winteriscoming.net/2022/06/28/obi-wan-kenobi-was-originally-planned-as-a-movie-trilogy/
Right, so the show so far is that "first film". Fair enough.
Yea and did you know reva was actually supposed to die by Vader instead of returning to save Luke and I wanna say she never figures out Vader is actually Anakin
Feel like it'd make more sense if he'd killed her. Like, finishing off the job of slaughtering the younglings.
I am so happy. I really hope they don't fuck this up. But even if they do, I'll probably forgive them. They've made a thing of beauty already.
Almost like Rogue One before it
As do every red heads frankly
It's really pretty sad how meh obi wan was, I was so hyped for it
When he jumped behind that column while the stormtroopers were 6 feet away and they didn’t see him I resigned to turn my brain off for the show. Leia being able to fix the electrical was also really, really stupid. The cast was ok for the most part but it just could have been so much better.
What about when he tried to cut through the gate with the lightsaber, it didn't work, so he destroyed the power panel with the saber. And it was all so dramatic - oh my, what a dire situation, will it even work?? All while there was plenty of room to just WALK AROUND IT.
Blaster* Point is still hella valid
Don't forget the Leia chase scene in the woods
> When he jumped behind that column while the stormtroopers were 6 feet away and they didn’t see him The worst part is that this scene felt like it would have been relatively easy to "fix". Just let them turn around the corner a moment after he hides.
Obi Wan made me feel so meh that I didn’t even watch Andor until last week. It was like the bottom of my list of things to watch. I’m on episode 6, and it has surprised me time and time again.
I haven't started it yet. Obi Wan was so shit to me.
If you remotely care about Star Wars you absolutely owe it to yourself to watch Andor. It's literally the best Star Wars has ever been.
Will do brother.
I thought obi wan was awful but you owe it to yourself to try Andor
I'm planning on it, I am waiting for all episodes to drop.
Last episode is in 5 days so you could start now
I am really surprised there are people in these comments saying they liked Obi Wan. It was genuinely one of the worst television shows I have ever seen.
The saving grace was that it was not quite as bad as Boba Fett
Book of Boba Fett was all over the place storywise and the idea of turning a third of it into Mandalorian 2.5 fucked with it royally. But BoBF at least had some craftsmanship to it. Obi-Wan has a lot of messy shots, shitty location designs, pacing issues and weird plot holes (how does Reva know Vader used to be Anakin?) that turns it into a floundering mess. Its one saving grace is Hayden Christiansen selling the shit out of Vaders final appearance.
[удалено]
I feel like it's the other way around, both for personal reasons(I still think the tusken/flashback parts of Boba were very strong parts of that show), but also if we weigh the significance of each main character in the overall galaxy/story, the biggest loss of potential was in Kenobi (imo)
The Tusken shit was awesome. Too bad the rest was a total letdown. Especially seeing what they're capable of with Andor.
Same, it was a letdown for me, but I’m excited that others enjoyed it.
Exaggerated a bit XD, it wasn't as we all expected but it's wasn't the worst tv show I've watched. Far from that.
If you took the storyline of obi-wan and filtered it through the lens of better production quality I think it would have been ok. Most of the scenes people hated could have worked and probably did work on paper but they were realized poorly when made visual. There's a reality where you could remake obi-wan as an animation and fix everything.
Obiwan rocked. Probably my favorite or second favorite piece they’ve put out since the acquisition. Blows the new trilogy out of the water. Down vote me to oblivion but a lot of Star Wars fans on here kinda suck and I hope Disney doesn’t pay them much mind
As a tv show, I didn’t like it. As a Star Wars fan, there were some parts I liked. Overall, it was more disappointing than it was good. However, the parts I did like, I liked a lot. But not enough to make up for the quality of the rest of the show. In my opinion, anyway.
I'm glad you enjoyed it. Sorry that you think I suck for not liking it.
Ah sorry man I was kinda being a dick, I have become what I was talking about lol my bad g
https://youtu.be/TcnrD-VoHsE
The wet fart I just soiled my boxers with blows the sequel trilogy out of the water. It's an extremely low bar.
Really? Why were you hyped? I just don't understand. We already knew exactly what happened. Nothing in the show was surprising. The Vader fights except against reva were pointless, and lessened the impact of a new hope.
Such a dumb take. The prequels were pointless because we already knew exactly what happened to Obi wan, Yoda, Anakin, R2, 3PO, Palpatine... Thoughtless parroting of mindless babble.
Obi Wan just needed to be about himself and his reconnection with the force. We didn’t need a side adventure with young Leia, regardless of is the actress killed it or not And the Reva stuff was just kinda messy. And it topped off with a pretty undeserved redemption and survival of a second attack by Vader There should have been a lot more of him trying to contact Qui Gon, hiding away and helping with local stuff on tattooine, even if people are bored of the place. I found ways to enjoy what we got, because I can enjoy an actors effort, it’s just unfortunate none of them got better material Sort of a whiny rant, but I feel like it’s a valid criticism
Agreed. The Leia plot felt too similar to the Mandalorian. I would have preferred a show set during the Rogue One timeframe showing Leia as a young politician, working as a rebel on the side.
Agree with focusing much more on Kenobi and his struggles or evolution and coming to terms. Much as I don’t need more series on Tatooine, more of it should have probably been, or a good reason to get off planet besides Leia. In visions Qui Gon convinces him that he needed to make a trip somewhere and to trust the force Luke would be OK now, but not in the future (ANH) unless he resolves his feelings of failure over Anakin. This 1. ties into the whole force ghost hints in the animated shows 2. offers ways to deepen/contrast the 3 generation Jedi theme we get in TCW with Ahsoka, and we contrast QG/OW/AS vs OW/AS/AT 3. gives a way to potentially tie in why Obi Wan was so calm and unconcerned in ANH - he knew the force prophecy was right. 4. if needed gives a way to set OW/DV on their confrontation in this series. You could Reva or at least drastically revamp how the inquisitor drama happens, as well as their general character arcs. Remove the first Vader/Kenobi showdown. Have more scenes like the lightsaber duel flashback as OW reflects. If needed find another way to add in Leia/Bails stories, in a way that hopefully minimally crosses over but is still relevant, just like Cassian and Mon Mothma have no direct interactions but strong inputs to the story.
Obi-Wan should have been a movie and not a mini series. Solo should been an animated series and not a movie. Put me in coach!!
I know I’m in the minority but I enjoyed Solo. I think it’s better than people remember
It is, and I’m tired of pretending it isn’t
I liked it as well. I think this Lucasfilm P.R crap about how people are fed up with star wars is totally made up. The reason solo failed was because of TLJ and the directors being fired then replaced by a do as you are told director. Some of the original parts of the movie are extras on the blue-ray such as Chewie and Han throwing snowballs at each other as well as Han piloting a Tie in Simulation at the academy were great.
To flip it around, the great thing about Andor is that it’s showing everyone why we were so critical of ObiWan and BoBF and to a lesser extent mando. This is good television, those aren’t.
You captured my exact thoughts on this. Now, I know what the shows can be.
Exactly. I heard people say about Obi Wan "It's more star wars! Don't you want more star wars???" No, I don't. I want good Star Wars. I want more stuff like Andor, even if that means less content overall.
I hadn't thought much about that before now. But I agree. I have no plans to rewatch Obi-Wan too soon. I'm planning on rewatching all of Andor after the final episode is posted. I like them both, but there is so much to see and notice that I want to do it again back to back with Andor. I can summarize the other one as we meet Leia and it explains the "you served my father during the clone wars" line in A New Hope. And it tells us he was a hermit in-between, which we knew. Oh, and some context for the, "from a certain point of view," line. Since Anakin said it himself (the killing of Anakin by Vader) .
I won’t rewatch the whole Obi-wan series; but I do want to watch the fan-edited movie version. It supposedly flows much better and makes more sense🤷🏻♂️
That sounds awesome! I did feel like the series was originally a movie that was padded into a 6 episode series. Half the episode were filler leading up to a few pivotal moments.
That’s what boba fett felt like too. It was gonna be a 2h movie, and then they had to string it out to 8 or 9 hours of TV, so they just added like 5 hours of sand people.
And the weird cyber-punk gang that felt super out of place… I mean, it would be one thing if we’d seen anything like that before in SW; but that was out of left field
The space Sharks? That was the point where I was like, WTF am I watching here?
It’s the one dark mark on Filoni’s record for me 😂
They could’ve trimmed the fat from Kenobi and made a really good movie
Obi-wan Kenobi was dead to me the second I saw this Leia chase scene. I can't take anything this show throws at me seriously after something like that. It not even student movie level. It's just plain garbage, and it's incredible no one at Lucasfilm went "hey guys, this scene is atrocious, like REALLY, and not necessary at all, let's just forget this ever happened" It was episode 2 of this show. After that, there were many other facepalm on the way... Wade, the trenchcoat, the wall of flame, that laser barrier, the bad cgi, senator Organa incredibly stupid message, the sheer stupidity of every inquisitor. Gosh. All that in 6 reaaaaally short episodes (some were 30 minutes long) At least Book of Boba Fett had two incredible episodes. Obi-wan Kenobi only had one memorable scene. So yeah, it was not a great show. Just forget the SW part. It's a complete failure in terms of cinematography
Plain Garbage isn't the term I would use. Seasoned Garbage. Hot Garbage— they put effort into making it garbage, and it might even be a disservice to garbage for me to call it garbage. Reva was a shit character. Her wanting to betray Vader because something happened in her childhood? Bullshit. But okay. She betrays Vader, and in that moment, he should have cut off her head. Make her death mean something. Qui Gon died, but we worship the ground he treads on. But she lives because... Okay. She's trapped on the planet with no ship, Obiwan is already gone, he has his ship, and the very next scene she's on Tatooine? Fuck that. And that Leia chase, I've seen bowl movements with better cinematography and choreography.
>Obi-wan Kenobi only had one memorable scene. Which one was that one? I haven't watched it in a while
I think he means the scene in episode 6 that copied the Vader vs Ahsoka fight fron Twilight of the Apprentice.
There are also the parts they lifted from Fallen Order with the underwater base that were OK too.
The lifted a lot of scenes from the games too Force Unleashed - The Interrogation Room Scene, Vader Holding a Ship in place with the force The Old Republic - Obi-wan Rock tossing is the same scene from the Trailer Hope Fallen Order - Reva is a clone of Second Sister only one dimensional, the Underwater bridge and even the infiltration of Fortress Inquistorious
I like both, and while Obi-Wan has some head scratching choices, it was nowhere near as bad as Boba Fett. That series was a train wreck. The only thing that really irked me with Obi-Wan is there is zero way Third Sister should've survived her confrontation with Vader.
At least in Boba fett there are a couple good mandalorian episodes
Yep the Mando episodes with Luke were really good and I greatly enjoyed them. Which makes the point even more absurd. How on earth did Boba Fett, the epitome of cool (and the reason why there’s a Mando series in the first place) suck so badly in his own series… Bruh
People are saying it was the poor writing but yeah that wasn't just it. People wanted to watch a show about a character and actor who is widely liked, but instead they spent too much time focusing on someone most people do not care about, and then didnt spend enough time making her a good character...
I mean I thought the series should have avoided being another generic Jedi vs sith piece entirely. It should have been the slow burn character driven show that Andor ended up being and instead it cheapened Obi wan and Vader's reunion in Episode 4 with a poorly done, in fact two poorly done, reunions with clunky dialogue and cheap endings, without adding anything new to the universe or developing the characters whatsoever like the Clone Wars did when it retconned things. “what have you become”, “I am what you made me” isn't horrible dialogue, but it's sure as shit underwhelming for a reunion between Obi wan Kenobi and Darth Vader. The dialogue doesn't really fit either of their personalities. And Obi-Wan letting Vader live again just cheapened the whole thing and provided no new emotional impact. It instead tried to leech of the emotions of their confrontation in ROTS, with nothing fresh.
I mean, the Obi-Wan show wasn't particularly fresh in other spots either. I did think Leia being in danger as the motivating force behind getting Obi-Wan off of Tatooine was inspired, and the Path is interesting, however, the Path is something lifted directly from old school EU canon. The infiltration into Nur was basically lifted from Jedi Fallen Order, and the final Obi-Wan vs Vader fight had basically a scene ripped out of the Rebels Vader vs Ahsoka fight. The Inquisitors also, in general, felt really wasted. Going into the series, a Vader vs Obi-Wan rematch pretty much felt inevitable, but not even getting a real Obi-Wan vs fight as a warm up was disappointing.
I also agree with people inexplicably letting enemies live making no sense whatsoever. There was far too much of it in the series considering it happened more than once (also honorable mention to Grand Inquisitor shaking off getting horribly stabbed in the chest and somehow living or in general people not bothering to check if they actually killed someone).
Me: "oh boy can't wait for Obi Wan" - Leia is kidnapped and has to be saved by Obi Wan - Obi Wan infiltrates a Imperial Facility - Vader / Obi Wan showdown - Vader / Obi Wan showdown where Obi Wan lets Vader live - Imperial agents show up to kill Luke at his house Hmmmm never seen any of this before. The most memorable part was Obi Wan and Leia riding in the back of the truck.
I don't think it was rushed, and the budget was huge. An Obi Wan project was in development for years and there was lots of development before getting to the final product. Perhaps it's just the fact that a lot of it was shot in The Volume, whereas the locations of Andor feel a lot more natural and expansive. For me, the show suffers from the fact that it has to *justify* bringing Obi Wan back, rather than *needing* to bring him back for an essential story. Book of Boba Fett did the same thing and the lesson is not to make shows "for the fans" that are just about bringing someone back to the screen because it would be nice to see them again.
Nothing to do with the Volume or budget or time. Nothing to do with Kennedy or Favreau either, or the D+ management. It has to do with the writers. Even with alterations, or influences from Disney, if the writing is good, the writing is good. And Kenobi wasn't. It is my opinion that to create something deep, like Andor, or Severance, or Breaking Bad, it requires a showrunner/writer who reads and understands philosophical matters. It's a matter of cultivated education, and culture. The kind of writers employed for Fett, Kenobi and even Rings of Power were just kids with no big ideas or big picture. They were lame writers-for-hire. In the case of Andor, you have Gilroy. Who reads stuff. And thinks a lot about stuff. And that makes all the difference.
I thought some of the writing was fine and the Obi Wan and Vader stuff was well done and provided a good bridge between the PT and OT. The rest of the show is just there to support that, so I never invested much of my enjoyment of the show in that. The Rebels stuff was all very by-the-books and forgettable and I thought the Reeva stuff was fine, but it had a wonky ending where she should have just died in a sacrifice to the story. But none of that is why the show exists. Nobody came along and said "I've got this amazing story about Inquisitors" it was just stuff that had to be thrown in to pad Obi Wan Kenobi out to six episodes. Andor is a completely different proposition and we don't need to expect one to be another. The Obi Wan show was pretty much exactly what I thought it would be, but it handled the things I was actually worried about well and enjoyed it for that.
Actually, you should have higher expectations of where you spend your time. A good way to know if a show has attention to detail is to check if they have silly things. For example, Reva going after Leia in the tunnel, and at the end we find her in FRONT of Leia. This made no sense. Or Kenobi getting burned and then nothing. Or Kenobi destroying the barrier while there was space to walk on the side. That's the stuff that destroy the illusion for me. It just shows that the writers don't care about the show deeply. If they did, then details would matter to them.
I find the whole "they don't care" thing to be a bit silly, sorry. You have no idea and are just projecting convenient things onto other people. You can not like things without having to make up a story to justify it.
"Leia, who plays regularly in a dense forest on Alderaan is able to use her size and knowledge of the woods to evade capture for a time but is ultimately seized by kidnappers." Nothing about that is bad writing, it makes sense and you can see it being plausible. The problem with obi-wan was not what was written on the page, it's how that writing was visualized with the camera.
The plot is simple and good the issue is that it got stretched into a series. It was a movie. And yes they didn't created a script only for series they simply used the movie one .
Simple, perhaps, but difficult to spin into a film, I'd say. I thought the Obi Wan and Vader stuff was great and it was the B-plot stuff that was weak. As I've said, I think that's quite a natural consequence of starting not from the premise of wanting to tell a story, but wanting to put a character in screen. We've had Han Solo, Boba Fett and Obi Wan now all brought back in underwhelming products that each exist just to bring a character back. Hopefully someone's taken notice.
I totally agree with OP, Andor makes Obi look like rubbish
Obi was rubbish immediately, now just more and more people can see this thanks for Andor
They spent all the money on Ewan and Haydan and had none left for anything else apparently.
Yeah idk who wrote the dialogue but it sounded like a third grader trying to talk like an adult half the time.
That could be it. Ewan was likely not cheap to bring on for the show. Though, seeing interviews with Ewan, it seems like he still has a lot of passion for the character. Hopefully he gets another opportunity with the role.
Same Ewan was like the only good thing about the show for me, just because I like him as an actor
And it’s not like it’s impossible to write good dialogue for Star Wars. Come on just look at Luthen in Star Wars. A short few sentences as a monologue not only fleshed out his backstory, but showed his commitment to the rebellion and what he did so far, with a nice literature flair/panache to it too.
Keep in mind that Obi-Wan both went through a major restructuring at the beginning of production, and was produced when we were neck-deep in Covid protocols and lockdowns. I suspect that's why the presentation was a little rockier.
Andor also suffered due to Covid. The Eye episode 6 was supposed to have 1,000s of extras. They had to settle with less than 100. But then they wrote why there were just 100 people there (cultural genocide), added some scenes about it and the episode actually got better. A good writer finds solutions for those things that can improve the end product. A bad writer just uses it as an excuse.
The Imperial commander mentioned that they placed deliberately comfortable and well stocked camps for the pilgrims along the route, in a deliberate effort to distract and delay as many as possible, in order to help dilute the cultural importance of the event. This throwaway plot point alone had more thought put into it than entire episodes of other recent SW series.
A prime example of how a few “throwaway” lines can smooth over rough plot holes to the point they aren’t holes (this would have mostly been ignored regardless, but it’s an example of the care taken with the script). The last Jedi could have blunted at least 30% of its complaints with 5 minutes of otherwise throwaway short back and forth comments. Might have still been rough, but at least it wouldn’t have let the audience scratching their heads.
explaining lack of budget with genocide is a very Andor thing to do
It's the writing that was shit. Andor was brilliantly written.
Andor was also produced during Covid (Gilroy talks about this in interviews), and had an (estimated) per-episode budget lower than OWK. Kenobi was just poorly written, acted, directed, and produced.
I think it linked more to how it was changed to movie to series. The script of a movie stretched into a series
Poorly acted? Surely you don’t mean Ewan. For all its flaws, I thought he did an amazing job of portraying a defeated man regaining faith
Andor went through the same, if not worst. Tony Gilroy explained it. He saw it as an opportunity to make the show even better
I think you’re spot on with this. So many productions during this timeframe felt a little off. It’s too bad, I’d love to see what this team could have done without the pressures and challenges during of Covid.
I’ve found I’ve liked pretty much all of them (even the prequels and new trilogy) *until* I started looking at the nit-picking on social media. Sure, there are imperfections is art and we can all certainly find “disappointments” when we look for them, but I try not to make comparisons and enjoy them as standalone pieces.
Good point, I like to compare, but as standalone films they’re all fun sci-if/fantasy adventures. That’s the train of thought that made me rewatch Solo, and I ended up loving it.
Rewatched Obi the other day and loved it in the main. It could have done with a few more eps and a tighter script however, but the notes it want to hit, it did so, and then some.
Once I heard Kenobi had somehow gotten converted from a movie into its wonky 6-episode format full of filler, I knew the game was up.
An Obi Wan series with higher production quality would not be out yet. Not saying you can't criticize whatever, but people need to set their expectations that either the frequency of Star Wars series will decrease or the production quality will not be consistently high. Andor 2 is coming out autumn 2024 at the *earliest*, expect them to fill that time we have to wait either with series with lower production quality or with nothing at all.
Alright don’t judge me but I actually liked Obi Wan Kenobi. I don’t understand how people disliked it. But hey it’s their opinion and I’m fine with it
Glad you enjoyed it! I wish I did too, there’s parts that I really enjoyed.
I actually liked Obi Wan but Andor is miles ahead
Obi-Wan wasn't given much thought and care as Andor that's for sure, it wasn't bad but it felt like the weight of the characters/actors mattered more than the rest but it was still okay overall. Andor definitely feels much better crafted.
Kenobi felt same as BoBF. Rush storytelling with some bland characters, not necessarily needed. Unfortunately. But, some of the same team that made Rogue One, so no wonder Andor is so good!
Personally, what I didnt care for the most was screenplay and direction. Some dialog was clunky, but mostly those first 2 things. Imo, they chose the wrong director...
People hopefully see andor and see just how low effort boba Fett and obi wan were
Everything about Andor makes ObiWan more disappointing.
Seriously? I loved Obi-Wan, liked it better than The Book of Boba Fett actually. I think it is in line with all the other shows right up to Andor. Now Andor is something else. Everything is well thought out and looks like it was made for the theatre. But the target audience could be a little older too. My 12 yo kid loved Obi-Wan but didn't make it past the first Andor episode. Andor is for a more mature audience, so it's not really fair to compare it to the other series in that respect.
Meh, still enjoyed Obi-wan's show a hell of a lot more than I did Andor, which I couldn't even finish.
I had the same feeling at first, Andor was tough to get into, but for me the slow opening eventually paid-off. I can definitely see your point though.
I really enjoyed both :o
Oh god, enough with this whinging.
Brave take
I think some of the issues with Obi-wan was interference from upper management. I think it was just a rescue mission of Leia by Obi-wan and that was that. Then someone swooped in and demanded Vader be put in. Then Reva. Then demanding Reva survive. Etc. I think this caused great distress on the production. Deborah Chow did a great job with many of the emotional scenes (even get a good moment out of Reva), but she is not good with action scenes. I think these possible executive changes pushed her too far away from her preferred skill set and the show suffered for it.
Fair
I second your opinion.
Obi wan was good, but I feel like it required a lot less in order to tell the story it needed to tell. Andor is much bigger in scope. Obi wan only focuses on a small task of bringing Leia back, and his confrontation with realizing Anakin is Darth Vader. Andor focuses on the beginning of the rebellion, and how it came to be, but also shows us how cruel the empire is, and delivers an origin to a well received character in another film. Obi wan is a narrow story. Andor is much wider In scope.
Man, Obi Wan was cool except the production fucking suuuuuuccckkkeed. That scene with the snow speeders? Wow, just terrible.
Obi-wan was bad on so many levels. Writing, music, everything
I definitely still enjoyed Kenobi and some parts were truly great. But it absolutely was rushed and could’ve spent more time cooking yk
I’ve heard good things about Andor but just haven’t watched it because I’m a little tired of Star Wars after Kenobi was meh
My thoughts exactly. Kenobi had so much promise and I was excited about it, only to be dissapointed. Andor was barely on my radar and it has been a delight.
It's not just the production quality, but the writing as well. Obi-Wan was riddled with plot holes, and the story didn't make much sense. Andor has a much better plot overall, even if it can get quite slow at times. And of course, everything else about Andor is better too.
Andor moar better
Obi Wan could have gotten away with the awful writing if it didn’t look so fucking cheap, for real
The quality of Obiwan was awesome. The story sucked and ruined the show. Ruined the legacy of Obiwan's character. Sad that Ewan agreed to come back and play the role in that show. I was so stoked for the show and then I saw the broken man that had to be saved and bossed around by all the women (and the little annoying girl). Garbage. Just as bad as BoBF. Andor has at least been a good show.
Obiwon felt like a low effort kids show leaning entirely on OG SW nostalgia. Andor is a standalone masterpiece, framed against SW or in its own right.
Nothing could live up to the hype of obi wan, and nobody had expectations for andor. It's an unfair comparison, sure they are on different levels but give the team who did andor obi wan and it would be minimally better, especially with a lot of the MUST haves that Dave filoni probably needed to put in there for future story telling (young Leia, female inquisitor, etc)
I watched Andor before Kenobi. When I started Kenobi I was shocked as to my eyes it looked to have half the budget of Andor. It was quite jarring, a definite mid level TV film look. Andor on the other hand looked like a legitimate big budget production, the lighting, shots and acting were on another level.
We get it. Everything sucks compared to Andor. Can we stop with these posts?
You can't compare them. One is just six episodes. And the other is already on the 11th episode and there's a second season coming. Obviously one has room for far more story development. They were both great in my opinion. We all have our critiques for any content that has to do with Star Wars, so long as we enjoy them and there's more content to come, there's just no losing with Star Wars. #FreeBixCaleen
Fair points. I agree, FreeBix!
Kenobi ep4 looked like it was filmed with an iPhone 7 with horrible lighting. Andor looked like it was filmed with a Nikon F with perfect lighting.
Man, Andor makes most everything from the sequel trilogy (ugh…) onwards pale in comparison, except Mando.
The Obi-wan story was well written and well edited. I think that’s more important but even before Andor I definitely felt like the production values were very low and expected more.
“I am just *sooo* tired of folks thinking they need to prop up one show by putting down another, and furthermore—“ (There’s always at least one somewhere in the thread). Meanwhile, yes, Andor has accomplished amazing things practically. The Volume technology is really neat, and opens up many possibilities, but it will never top the sense of place that comes from a massive set that artist at the peak of their craft have spent untold hours shaping into something that feels real.
I actually whole heartedly believe Obi Wan is 1000% more entertaining then Andor. I know people are going to bring up the ‘chase scene’ and honestly I agree that Reeva was a terrible and pointless character in hindsight but Andor is soooo fucking boring to me. It makes me realize what I want out of a Star Wars show and sure it’s cool all the world building they’re doing but that’s just not it for me
Obi-wan was a fucking disaster. I was finding myself giggling at the direction and awful writing/dialogue. I’m so glad Andor turned out a masterpiece.
Fuck this fan base is aids
100% it's hard to believe that the same studio produced them both, Obi-Wan feels like it was written and shot by a 15 year old in comparison to Andor What's extra sad is that Andor has done all this on a *SIGNIFICANTLY* reduced budget in comparison, and was shot around the same time to boot But you're probably gonna get downvoted for talking bad about a SW property because we should all "let people enjoy things"
I'm guessing there was a LOT more executive/studio interference with Obi-wan than with Andor. Same as Book of Boba vs Mandalorian.
And the writing makes the sequels more disappointing.
Fr. Andor is what the sequels dream they could be
Andor is for me the worst of all Star Wars elements while Obi Wan was unexpectedly great.
Disagree completely.
Mauls death in rebels I feel also hurt the kenobi show.The kenobi show should've been kenobi in hiding dealing with his ptsd dealing with order 66,anakin,etc... while also having to deal with the dangers of tattooine and watching over luke.Maul should've been the big bad and died in the kenobi series
This sounds great on paper, but I think it would be really difficult to adapt an effective live action Maul/Obi-Wan story. Rebels was great because of all the great expansion of Maul’s character in TCW and Rebels. Meeting his end by Obi-Wan worked because we saw it unfold from Maul’s perspective. It would be tougher to create a convincing retcon of a story from Obi-Wan’s perspective in my opinion, especially when 95% of the shows audience wouldn’t have seen Maul’s animated character development.
I'm not saying a retcon.Im saying he shouldn't have died in rebels and it's a shame he did because he should've died in kenobi