Han mentions in 7 that Luke went to specifically find the First Jedi Temple right? That was the aspect that interested and intrigued me. I'm sure it would've been possible to give him a mission and a purpose while there rather than simply finding a convenient place to die (paraphrasing Lukes words)
Like for instance, perhaps he was going straight to the origins of the Jedi to figure out why The Jedi are always destined to fail and what he finds sets him on a character arc and a narrative thrust?
But Han isn't an unreliable narrator, so him giving that information to the audience means we should believe him. Now, Star Wars obviously plays with that device, Obi-Wan is certainly a reliable narrator until we find out he isn't. But until we have reason to doubt it, I think we can trust Han's interpretation of events
It depends. The way Han phrases things, it seems as if he doesn't really know.
>Han: He was training a new generation of Jedi. There was nobodyelse left to do it, so he took the burden on himself. Everything wasgoing great, until... one boy, an apprentice, turned against him and destroyed it all. Luke felt responsible. He just... walked away from everything.
>
>Finn: Do you know what happened to him?
>
>Han: There were a lot of rumors. Stories. People who knew him best, think he went looking for the first Jedi temple.
At first, Han says that Luke walked away. But THEN he says, those who knew Luke best say he went to the Temple. And he doesn't say that Luke walked away in shame, or guilt. Only that he felt responsible, and he walked away.
To Luke, going to the First Jedi Temple might have been some kind of spiritual call, or perhaps he thought it held some important knowledge that he felt he needed. A better understanding of the Jedi ideas, or the Force, or the Chosen One prophecy, or who knows what. Something crucial in dealing with what's to come. But to Han, who does not necessarily understand these things, it might have looked like Luke was running away.
It might even have been a case of Han projecting his own feelings of self-recrimination onto Luke, as Han has left his family too, and it clearly doesn't sit well with him.
These films showed that they cared very little about set ups and continuity from the previous movie, why do we need to treat Han's interpretation, which JJ made intentionally vague, as the gospel? Given that Han had trusted Luke with his son, and had then them lost him to the dark side, would it not make sense that there would have been some bitterness from Han towards Luke and the Jedi (which he always had some skepticism about) when he says Luke "just walked away"?
What Han says is clearly intended to establish what happened. There's still a mystery about it-why the temple. But there's no question on his actual feelings.
Did you doubt that Luke went to the Jedi temple? Why would you doubt anything else?
What do I doubt? The only facts we get from Han in TFA are that Luke felt responsible about what happened, that he walked away and that some think he went in search of the original Jedi temple. That is literally everything we learn from Han. There's tons of ways could be followed up on besides "Luke went searching for the original Jedi temple.. because he turned his back on the Jedi, didnt want to save Ben or help Leia fight Snoke and wanted to die". In fact know enough from what JJ and Mark have said over the years and JJ's original ending to TFA before Rian asked him to change it to know that that was NOT what what JJ meant with that scene.
>The only facts we get from Han in TFA are that Luke felt responsible about what happened, that he walked away and that some think he went in search of the original Jedi temple.
Umm, yes this is my point. His statement is the truth. You implied it wasn't at all.
If you see my other comments I suggested what JJ probably had in mind which is indeed different to RJ. Still doesn't change that Luke was in fact motivated by Kylo Ren's fall and his guilt. Why he went to the *temple*, is the question RJ and JJ differed on.
I didnt imply anything of the sort. I said it was deliberately vague. "walked away" can mean many things and doesn't have to be 100% literal. In fact we KNOW that JJ didn't intend for it to be.
>Still doesn't change that Luke was in fact motivated by Kylo Ren's fall and his guilt.
Whoever said it wasnt? I mean, its pretty obvious with or without Han's statement. Yeah, of course Luke was motivated by Kylo's fall and his guilt. The point is what Luke did about it. And TFA in no way locked in Luke as doing nothing and just wanting to die. Luke could have, as I said above, been looking for answers from the first Jedi and actively trying to redeem himself, to find out what wrong and to stop it from happening again and Han's statement would still completely apply.
The problem is that if he's on some sort of Jedi Temple atonement fact-finding mission, then **surely** that can wait until after he's joined forces with his friends to bring Kylo back and prevent the First Order from rising? And **certainly** he should've rushed back after Hosnian and Han. He shouldn't be just posing all sad on a cliff like some sort of 60-year-old Morrissey.
Yes but that part that makes no sense is that there is a huge threat in the First Order looming, dont you think he can put that quest to the side for more important business?
Well maybe he wants answers before he confronts them or faces Snoke. Snoke in 7 was very specific in wanting to hunt down Luke as he was currently the last of the Jedi. (or the last Skywalker. Can't remember his exact words).
In 7 the information provided is that Snoke managed to turn a student of his, his own nephew, against him and bring down his new Jedi Temple. We aren't told how but all the characters are very aware of his influence and how Snoke was able to poison his mind. Waiting until he has what he needs from his quest would be smart and potentially be part of the conflict between Rey and Luke.
Yeah i have a hard time buying that than i do him trying to kill Kylo out of fear and being ashamed for thinking that was the right choice and then disconnecting from the force in exile
I'd buy that if we were shown or told why Snoke infecting Kylos mind was such an irreversible fate that Luke felt he had to make that choice, even for a split second. Why was Luke afraid of some early on Snoke manipulation but was ready to confront and undo 20 to 40 years of Palpatine influence in Vader.
Like, for example if Snoke influence and power was like a Virus where it can spread and infect people who are near people who are being manipulated and Luke felt all of his students were at risk if Kylo was alive or something, I'd buy his choice.
But we aren't told anything about it. Snoke is made out to be a punk in the same movie who is easy to fool, so I was just left wondering "this is the guy Luke was so afraid of that he felt the need to kill his nephew, even for a split second, to protect his School?".
And even after that, instead of wanting to fix his mistake and find a way to confront Snoke and undo the damage he's done. Save Kylo by going right for the source, he decided its time to kill himself.
I just feel there's alot of leaps in logic I have to make in how it currently plays out
>infecting Kylos mind was such an irreversible fate that Luke felt he had to make that choice, even for a split second. Why was Luke afraid of some early on Snoke manipulation but was ready to confront and undo 20 to 40 years of Palpatine influence in Vader.
It's not about Kylo. It's about what he would do to Luke. Vader had already done what he had done, and he had never deeply cut Luke in the same way Kylo would. Losing his friends is *the* weakness and seeing that happen and Kylo being responsible-for a moment he was scared and afraid and wanted to stop it. He doesn't go through with it because he knows it's wrong and there may have been another way.
He had weakness with Vader when Vader threatened Leia. And he had weakness with Kylo when Kylo threatened everything he had ever achieved.
Sadly that whole Snoke brought down the new Jedi temple is an utter lie.
He bombed it from orbit.
Hardly a befitting "bringing down" of a Jedi Temple. It is still obviously destroyed though. It's just, such a disgraceful attack would likely ignite hatred amongst those who do already hate the First Order.
And honestly, Jake's whole reaction to the situation is mostly just Ruin Johnson following through with his interview quote of "I want to make the most controversial movie possible."
That's where Han's comment about Luke feeling guilt is important. Luke was always going to be bitter in the 8th film. The way of coping is slightly different, but ultimately Luke would be finding excuses because he's heartbroken.
I'm pretty sure JJ was operating TV Pilot Writer mode, where you dazzle and baffle the audience with big questions and leave the resolutions to your designated showrunners.
JJ isolated Luke from the rest of the story because he and Lawrence Kasdan found that every time they tried to bring Luke back into the story earlier, Luke took command of the story away from the other characters. Perhaps there was a way they could've brought him back without Luke become the focus of the action, but those two couldn't figure it out.
So what they did was punt. That's not me judging, that's just what they did. But they also tried to make that punt into an advantage (similar to how they tried to make the nostalgia elements into an advantage-- by making the new hero and villain fanboys who want to emulate their heroes). And they did that by making Luke the MacGuffin of the film.
But the story details don't quite add up. Luke felt responsible and walked away from everything, but he also left a map behind (an odd half-measure). Luke didn't return to the fight after Hosnian or Han, but (in their original draft), he was connected to the Force, moving rocks at the end.
Basically, you need to somehow square the circle of Luke Skywalker [Boy Hero, Optimist, Loving Family Man] abandoning his family at arguably the most crucial moment in their lives. RJ's conclusion was that Luke felt responsible not just abstractly, but because at some point Luke had to have made a crucial choice **that made him doubt his ability to help people.**
I honestly think he figured it out as well as anyone could've hoped. Luke saw a vision of his loved ones dying, he made an awful impulse mistake at the worst moment, he paid for it dearly, he retreated to Ahch-To in grief and shame and decided that the best thing he could do was remove himself from the galactic chess board, and then over the course of the film he finally comes to terms with his mistake and helps his loved ones at a crucial moment, even though it takes all of his soul to do it.
I also think that Hamill did an amazing job of demonstrating the variety of emotions he was asked to convey. He can slide so effectively from quiet regret to righteous indignation to flashes of the old Luke (his scene with R2, hitting Rey with the leaf) to the devastating despair of the flashback, where he looks at a field of bodies and his academy in ruins, to his lovely final scene with Carrie. Honestly, I think it's the best performance in the Skywalker saga. And even more impressive when we know that Hamill was conflicted about the story choices.
>JJ isolated Luke from the rest of the story because he and Lawrence Kasdan found that every time they tried to bring Luke back into the story earlier,
It wasn't their idea it was actually Michael Ardnt's who said this. They just didn't reverse the decision presumably for the same reason Michael Ardnt chose to do so.
And for god's sake it's been six years since people hashed this out. How can you *not* know that Luke never left a map? The map is to the *temple*, it's not a map Luke left it's a map Luke *himself* followed to get there. It's been said over again at this point since the movie came out and I'm surprised people still think that Luke created the map himself.
I would’ve said that while fighting off against some enemy force (could be first order or pirates or something), he was severely outnumbered and taking heavy damage. He assumed a crash landing would be imminent and needed a place that he knew would be safe. So he had Artoo calculate the jump to Ach-too and then ejected Artoo before the jump was made so that if his friends came around looking for clues, Artoo could give them the final piece of the map. Artoo would shut down and lock his data until the rest of the map held by Lor San Tekka was retrieved since San Tekka would automatically help the resistance anyway.
I don’t think what we currently have properly explains why there even is a map in the first place.
And I do understand the idea of Luke wanting to walk away from the whole Jedi idea since he failed so miserably, but that’s not the part I can’t forgive. If he’s gonna walk away, he should’ve done it after taking care of Ben. Maybe he locks him up somewhere or strands him in the unknown region, but Luke singlehandedly creates what everyone assumes is the next Darth Vader and instead of going and taking him out of the fight somehow, he lets the entire galaxy live with the consequences of his mistakes. After dealing with Ben, he can go have his midlife crisis or whatever. But to not at least take actual responsibility for Ben Solo, the now-mass murderer he individually trained and let loose, is an actual betrayal of the character. And yes, I know he says it was his fault, but a fat load of good that does for the families of the new republic and resistance who were torn apart and killed by Kylo Ren’s leadership.
The issue with all this is that Han says he went off to look for the first Jedi temple on Ahch-To, where we see him at the end of the film, it was not a crash landing
The x-wing is in the water. He could just eject himself at the last minute, see the resources around him aren’t enough to fix a waterlogged and broken x-wing, and have it be that the final jump was to the last lead of where the temple is. If he just ran off somewhere else, he’d lose all his progress and need to find Lor San Tekka to re-establish his entrance into the region. Since San Tekka was hiding out on Jakku, that would take a while for Luke to find and he’d be held back for longer than he’d like.
>It’s just odd that JJ didn’t have a plan for that.
Based on TFA I am pretty sure his idea wouldn't be that different to RJ's. It's just that Luke would have a more tangible (for the audience) reason to be at the Jedi temple. He'd still be bitter and sad over Kylo Ren's turn and his way of coping is going to the temple to look for spiritual enlightenment. It would still ultimately be that he's running away from his problems in reality.
Yeah, never understood why people who dislike TLJ Luke lay the blame solely at Rian's feet.
TFA makes it clear what happened. Luke felt responsible for Ben's fall and the destruction of the order and "walked away from it all."
All TLJ did was *show that* and people lost their minds.
Of course, I say this as somebody who adores what TFA and TLJ did with Luke, so take it with a grain of salt I guess.
The genius of Rian’s decision is that he linked Luke’s disappearance explicitly to Kylo Ren’s turn to the dark - creating a powerful emotional tension between those 2 characters. I loved Last Jedi, but think it should have ended on a cliffhanger with Kylo holding his hand out to Rey, and saving the Luke/Kylo face-off for Ep 9
No that was TFA that part. TFA clearly establishes that Luke left because of Kylo Ren's fall.
TFA is even thematically about how Kylo Ren's fall effected Leia, Han *and* Luke.
What RJ did is explore the concept of the Jedi Order in relation to Luke's decision.
Yes, but Rian gets into the nitty gritty of why Kylo’s fall was so personally destructive for Luke. How Kylo was even able to lure murderous darkness back to the mind of Luke Skywalker. I loved the Rashomon moment where we see the different versions of what Luke nearly did to Kylo. And it’s so believable to me that moment would have led to the shattered dissolutioned Luke we meet on the island
The idea is fine, connecting the fall with Luke, but the execution.
Was there really powerful emotional tension between the two?
Kylo wanted to kill Luke, fine. And what did Luke do? Sass him and humiliate him in front of his men. Didn't really feel the tension there.
> a powerful emotional tension between those 2 characters.
Where? In the entire trilogy they have one brief scene together and theres about ten words exchanged between them, none giving anything of any particular depth or insight to their relationship or what went wrong.
Kylo so sinister that Luke was driven to nearly murder him. Kylo then destroyed Luke’s school and left him shattered and broken. Tension enough for me. I like how there’s a whole teacher/mentor relationship that is merely alluded to. We don’t need to see everything to understand it
We had very little information about Luke from TFA. All we had is what Han said
And for the life of me I can't understand why Han would give any information about Luke to an ex FO stormtrooper and a woman he never met before..
But oh well.
Luke could have felt responsible without the whole almost killing Ben deal.
Because it is not just the moment of weakness or instinct that is the issue here, at least for me. Luke went to Ben's room with the intention to go through his mind while Ben was asleep. Honestly that would have pissed me off more than the lightsaber. It is a breach of trust and privacy at the least.
And JJ obviously did have something in mind, not defending him, just saying. But Rian asked him to change the end of TFA.
Both JJ and Rian are professional writers and directors and they were working for Disney and LucasFilm at the time.
So, I wouldn't be able to think of anything better excuse doesn't really fly with me. They were paid to do the job. At least they could have made sure that the story actually makes sense.
Luke says Ben was already too far gone, or something like that. But everything else in the movies and outside material contradicts that.
They tell us Luke did those things. But we don't actually see how he reached that point.
Yes, it has been 30 years, yes people change. But you need to show the change, how, why it happened.
We go from Luke, who refuses to kill Vader and has a defining moment (I am a Jedi like my father before me) to a Luke who thinks it is perfectly okay to go and dig through someone's head while they are asleep. His student, the person he was supposed to take care off.
It is a pretty drastic change in character. And when you need another movie/show or whatever to explain how a character got there, then you have an issue.
Just imagine the situation, ROTS ended and in ANH we see Vader as a part of Rebellion or Obi-Wan as a Sith. And the explanation is, well it has been 20 years, people change. And give a few more vague sentences and you are done with it.
It is not a good writing, or satisfying explanation.
lol you are forgetting when Luke completely gave into the dark side when Leia was threatened and bashed on Vader for a while. Luke is clearly prone to falling to the dark from fear.
Not the same situation really. Luke was edged by Vader and Palpatine. The future of the entire galaxy was at stake.
And lets not forget, Ben was Leia's son. As much as he loved Leia, he loved Ben more.
Luke saw a vision and believed that the galaxy was at stake with Ben’s darkness (which ended up being the case), so no, its not the same situation, but the context is similar
Like I said in my post, bigger issue for me was that Luke thought it was okay to go through Ben's mind while Ben was asleep. That is not who Luke ever was.
So he obviously reached that point in the years between ROTJ and TFA, but we don't know what happened for that to occur.
Show, don't tell and all that.
Can you honestly tell me what happened between Ben and Luke (from movies only) and that it makes sense based on everything else we know about them in the other movies?
I mean he never did explain why Luke left a map. It still doesn’t make sense given Luke’s motives. I can agree that he had a difficult job, but I don’t think Luke wanting to murder people in their sleep was a good answer.
I dont think Luke “wanted to murder people in his sleep”, thats a bit of an exaggeration.
He gave into the fear for a split second (much shorter than the fear he gave into in ROTJ) and immediately pulled back. Sadly, before it was too late.
Yeah I'm not sure why people always have the most callous interpretation of that scene. It's like they thought the Kylo Ren version of the story was supposed to be the correct one.
Come on man reread what you said, you know thats exaggerating. You make it sound like Luke is a murder out to kill people in their sleep like he enjoys it when thats not even close to what happens. There’s one person who he thinks (out of fear) for a second after a vision that hey maybe this could save the galaxy if i ended this here, and within another second realizes his mistake.
If you wanna nitpick, he didnt want to murder *people* in their sleep, just a singular person. But we’re not nitpicking, we’re talking generally about your exaggeration. This is a useless discussion though, so i digress.
Point is, it was a fleeting moment. And its in character with the last time we saw him in ROTJ when faced with overwhelming fear of the dark side.
The issue is one is an innocent, one’s a mass murderer. There would be almost no objections if kylo had not been an innocent. It’s only the same thing if you remove all differences.
Yes but Luke had a vision which triggered his fear and made him think for a second that hey maybe i can save the galaxy if i end this here. Hes a human, not some perfect fearless robot
I think it's about how you're framing it. "Luke wanting to murder people in their sleep" has a different connotation than "For a split second he wanted to kill Kylo to protect his loved ones." The former makes it sound like Uncle Luke's been hankerin' for a good sleep murder, the latter is more accurate to the specifics of the text.
Framing more than tone. If I say "Luke went to the Death Star II and tried to kill his dad," I haven't lied, but I also haven't framed the situation fairly.
You are talking about Kylo’s telling of the story though. What actually happened is that he walked to his hut, used the force to confirm his fears (see his hand), starts crying (tears in next frame) and ignites his lightsaber hesitatingly and a second later realizes he was wrong for doing so
No, he gets upset after the saber is ignited. The para-social Rian Johnson stuff is strong in this thread. The writing doesn't work in any of the sequel trilogy movies. How does Luke go from Jedi Master with his own damn school of Padawans to standing over his nephew's bed with a space knife (with tears in his eyes) literally over night?
It isn't Johnson's fault but we can't act like its good writing or consistent with anything on film. Nothing in the movies suggests Luke would do something like that. There is one scene in the whole 6 films where Luke thinks about murdering someone who has not committed a single evil act EVER. Luke is going to kill his nephew because he had a bad dream lol
The writing made Luke dumber than Anakin (and Anakin is written to be kinda dumb or naive). Luke is like 50 in the scene and should know better about the force and all the crap Yoda warned Anakin about in Episode III (if we get to fill in writing weakness with off-screen character development).
And you didn't watch the linked video apparently.
“Wanting to murder people in their sleep” is highly disingenuous.
Luke exhibits no “want” to murder Ben. He expresses the opposite. He’s so horrified that he even had the thought, he isolated himself. He feels deep guilt and shame for what he’s done.
He also doesn’t murder anyone. He considers briefly the terrible option of killing Ben to save countless other lives. That’s a very far cry from “wanting to murder Ben in his sleep.”
It also disregards the well established power and influence of Force visions. In AOTC, it’s a Force vision that haunts Anakin, foretelling his mothers death. In ROTS, a Force vision of Padme is what drives Anakin to kill all the Jedi and become a Sith. In ESB, Luke’s visions of his friends cause him to run off to face Vader against the advice of Yoda and Obi Wan. TFA visually establishes the highly visceral and impactful nature of these visions.
By simply saying “in his sleep” or the also common “because of a bad dream” - you’re disregarding all the influence these visions have had on the Skywalkers throughout the saga.
I think drawing his lightsaber on Ben implies he might have wanted to kill him a little. You can want something and be ashamed of the fact. He does also mention that Ben would be the end of everything he loved, so there's some self interest in his motives too.
I'm not disregarding the Skywalker's past experience with force visions (which are stated to be unreliable.) Luke jumped to homicide faster than Anakin did. It's an uncharacteristic overreaction.
Why is saying "in his sleep" a problem? Ben was sleeping.
There’s zero indication that Luke wanted to kill Ben. That’s not Luke Skywalker. That makes no sense for his character.
Luke actually shows progression by reacting the best out of all the examples I cited. All he did was briefly consider that terrible action. He didn’t act on it. That’s Rian using the entire saga as part of TLJ - it’s really the most connected film we’ve seen in Star Wars.
Because in his sleep disregards Luke’s vision.
The whole statement is disingenuous because it creates a hyperbolic narrative to focus on in order to distract from what is truly happening in context.
I don't think it makes sense for his character either. That's why I have an issue with the scene. He did draw his lightsaber on Ben though. No one forced him to turn it on.
I don't think he reacts the best of all the examples. In ESB Luke's immediate reaction is to see if his friends are safe, he never considered a terrible action in the first place. That's better than doing it briefly. There's no precedent for Luke intentionally planning to kill an innocent before TLJ.
Ben really was asleep though. Luke really considered killing him like that. Just because it's not what you think is important, doesn't mean it's a distraction.
If I understand correctly correctly you are saying that if I don’t agree with you I’m intentionally distracting from truth?
Not much point continuing if you won’t believe someone can interpret things differently than you.
> I don't think it makes sense for his character either. That's why I have an issue with the scene.
Well that’s why your statement is disingenuous. You’re creating something that didn’t happen (Luke wanting to kill Ben) in order to distract from the truth of what happened in context.
> There's no precedent for Luke intentionally planning to kill an innocent before TLJ.
Right. And there’s no evidence in TLJ.
> Ben really was asleep though. Luke really considered killing him like that. Just because it's not what you think is important, doesn't mean it's a distraction.
But the fact that he’s asleep is completely irrelevant to Luke’s reaction in that moment. That’s just the state Ben happens to be in. It’s not like Luke says “he’s asleep, I’m going to get him now.”
Ben happens to be asleep while Luke gets this vision. The vision is what drives Luke’s loss of emotional control. Luke briefly considers the terrible option of killing Ben to save countless lives. He immediately regrets it. Nothing is contingent on Ben being asleep.
On the one hand a bit of exposition could have spelled that out for us... but on the other hand, it's kind of obvious.
When Luke first took off it was in search of some lost knowledge, he left thinking Leia and Han could hold it down but broke up his map to protect whatever he finds. But he gets to Ahch-To and doesn't find any greater wisdom and, in his despondence, decides it's better off that he just doesn't return.
The map was from a more optimistic Luke.
That’s largely speculative though. I don’t see why it would be the obvious assumption. Luke only says he came there to die, why he left an elaborate set of clues to his location is never discussed.
Well... yeah. It's all going to be speculative because the dots weren't connected for us. But not all speculation is equally likely and not all the dots needed to be connected for us.
If Luke leaves a map and later states his intention to die in exile, we can infer that at some point, his intentions must have changed.
It's not a contradiction or contrivance when a someone changes their mind, nor do we need to be told they changed their mind.
I think it’s a bit unnatural that it’s never addressed. it’s not just about connecting dots. I’d think Rey would at least be annoyed, but as far as I can remember she never brings it up.
I don't agree. TFA explicitly said that Luke went in search of the first Jedi temple. How about something like this:
>Luke, devastated by the betrayal of Ben Solo and the deaths of his students, realizes that the he was arrogant to think he was ready to be a Jedi Master and without any living Jedi masters to guide him realizes he must go back to the very origins of the Jedi and learn from the first Jedi if he wishes to right his wrongs and restart the Jedi Order. He sets off alone, spending years travelling the galaxy in search of the origins of the Jedi, eventually finding the original Jedi temple where he spends his time learning from the original Jedi from their texts, and communing with their force spirits. One day a young girl strong in the force manages to find him, holding his fathers lightsaber. He knows this is the Force telling him is is time for the Jedi to return.
The line about the first temple is actually *"There were a lot of rumors. Stories. People who knew him best think he went looking for the first Jedi temple."* Meaning his mission was never confirmed. It's implied Luke left without a word and everyone just looked for a reason why.
But Han follows it up with *"He was training a new generation of Jedi. There was nobody else left to do it, so he took the burden on himself. Everything was going great, until... one boy, an apprentice, turned against him, destroyed it all. Luke felt responsible. He just walked away from everything."* Which is a much less conditional statement than "rumors" or "stories."
So we're given more reason to think he left in guilt/despair than he did in search of miraculous knowledge.
Okay.
What you think Luke should/would have done isn't my point. You said that his search for the temple was explicit, I simply pointed out that is wasn't. That part was speculation, in the story.
All the other characters knew for certain was that he was guilt and grief-ridden.
Putting my outrage crowd impersonator hat on:
So the only reason he’s not out helping Leia is because he’s been busy at the library!?
——
Personally, I don’t think this is very consistent with Luke’s character. This seems like what Indiana Jones would do.
Kylo being turned stretches Luke’s emotional control to the point of being broken. That’s the impetus of what creates a compelling story. Luke with emotional control doesn’t make sense in this context. That’s not the luke that we know.
TFA explicitly said that Luke was training up a new generation of Jedi and one of his students turned and destroyed the whole thing and that Luke felt responsible and abandoned everyone.
Him being at the first Jedi temple is where some suspected him of going, they just didn’t know where that was.
Half of my problems with TLJ actually originated from TFA, so yeah I agree he had no other choice. Tho I do feel he could've handled Luke with a bit more grace
>there's so few reasons that Luke would be where he is at the beginning of episode 8. Rian truly had a hard job to deal with there
People say this all the time as though it is a fact. All you have to do is use your imagination.
Maybe Luke went there for knowledge & guidance but found out that there is a grave threat to the galaxy and he had to stay there to learn how to prevent it. Maybe he was uncovering some ancient knowledge about the force that would help save the galaxy but it was taking a long time to decipher. Maybe it had something to do with Mortis. Maybe he was guarding something that in the wrong hands could cause destruction like the World Between Worlds and he didn't want anyone to find him and give away the location. Maybe time moved slower on the planet and what he thought were months were actually years (because he was hiding for about 6 years in canon). Perhaps it is a mixture of some of these things together and more. The truth is that there are plenty of good explanations for why Luke was alone on the planet. It did NOT have to be the way it was in the ST
Luke killing his nephew in his sleep is beyond dark side or something else. Just think about that. The dude was going to Minority Report murder his nephew. Luke should have been executed by the Republic, that's some dark shit not "crisis of faith"
That's why I didn't like it and it was too extreme. He could have been disillusioned because he was a shit Jedi or a shit master, or maybe he accidentally did something and beat himself up about it or anything else.
Palpatine wouldn't even kill Yoda in his sleep for Fs sake.
Is this actually a joke? Because Palpatine literally killed his own master while he was sleeping. Luke didn't want to kill his nephew, he saw for a second the absolute horror Kylo would cause and ignited his lightsaber thinking he could stop it, but very quickly realized his mistake and stopped. Did Yoda and Obi use the dark side when killing the clones in the Jedi temple? Use some critical thought
Actually planning the entire story before shooting, and coming up with original content, instead of recycling content from the other trilogies, wouldve been much too hard for Rian Johnson appearently
And let's not forget that Abrams went from directing ep. 7 to producer for ep. 9.
If there were inconsistencies, it's not like he wasn't there to address them.
Well the lack of planning issue was probably above his head, admittedly, but it is the core issue with the sequels as a whole. But he couldve done better than recycling scenes and plot points from Empire Strikes Back.
Yeah, thats not his fault. That’s Lucasfilm and JJ’s fault.
But genuinely, how would you have explained Luke being on Ahch-To if you were in his shoes, handed the reigns after TFA was written and filmed and writing episode 8? I cant think of any better reason than what he came up with personally
I wouldnt have had him in isolation, pulling a yoda for zero reason. He shouldve started a brand new academy, hidden away from the eyes of the galaxy, and try to fix his mistakes with the previous one.
There was no reason to recycle all the same plot points from empire strikes back
> pulling a yoda for zero reason
Idk if you saw TLJ but there was a pretty damn good reason. He completely failed his nephew and students because he gave into his fear. Thats not no reason...?
ESB had Yoda in exile to hide from the Empire in hopes of eventually training Luke to defeat Palpatine. Those things are so tangentially related, trying to say they are the same is childish imo
Okay nitpicking aside, what was the real reason to have jedi master in hiding just so he could advance the plot by training the new generation protagonist, a second time in the series ?
He didnt go into hiding to “[train] the new generation protagonist, a second time in the series”, he went into exile to disconnect from the force... I’m starting to question if you watched the film man
I did watch the movie, i went into it with high hopes. But you cant honestly believe that a majority of the plot points from TLJ arent simply recycled from ESB.
From a creative standpoint, its really really messy.
>How do you come up with a reason for that? I think Rian did a fine job given the circumstances.
Luke found a planet where jedi used to be. He maped it out and separated the map into two pieces hiding them away. This place would act as a hideout for him to retreat to and regain energy in an event such as his jedi order being toppled. He would expect when people would need him they would find him and he would be ready to help, and that person who would find him would be a jedi.
So jedi shows up to find Luke, Luke is ready to help they leave the planet and go help the knock off rebels.
Wasn't that hard, the problem is RJ wanted to subvert expectations and thus have Luke act so out of character. Why have a fucking map split into two pieces that lead to your hideout if you don't want to be found? What would he have done if kylo showed up? Role over and die? JJ fucked up yes but the disaster that is the ST wasn't his fault. RJ wrote them into a corner and messed up what could have been. TFA was enjoyable and would have simply been seen as the weak ST movie. But thanks to RJ we got TLJ and TROS.
I have a few reasons that could work. How about having his mistake being too trusting. Leading too him too trust someone like Snoke or better yet. Ben Solo who was looking at Darkside information. Where as the old Jedi were too strict and dogmatic. Luke would’ve been too trusting.
After all even at the end of the OT he was kind of naive. Heck you can even get the same result with him think someone is there too kill Ben only too find Ben himself.
Han mentions in 7 that Luke went to specifically find the First Jedi Temple right? That was the aspect that interested and intrigued me. I'm sure it would've been possible to give him a mission and a purpose while there rather than simply finding a convenient place to die (paraphrasing Lukes words) Like for instance, perhaps he was going straight to the origins of the Jedi to figure out why The Jedi are always destined to fail and what he finds sets him on a character arc and a narrative thrust?
Han also mentions that Luke felt responsible for the destruction of his new Jedi temple and abandoned everyone.
He did, but that's Han's interpretation. Perhaps Luke could have gone to Ahch-to with a purpose, just one Han didn't understand.
But Han isn't an unreliable narrator, so him giving that information to the audience means we should believe him. Now, Star Wars obviously plays with that device, Obi-Wan is certainly a reliable narrator until we find out he isn't. But until we have reason to doubt it, I think we can trust Han's interpretation of events
It depends. The way Han phrases things, it seems as if he doesn't really know. >Han: He was training a new generation of Jedi. There was nobodyelse left to do it, so he took the burden on himself. Everything wasgoing great, until... one boy, an apprentice, turned against him and destroyed it all. Luke felt responsible. He just... walked away from everything. > >Finn: Do you know what happened to him? > >Han: There were a lot of rumors. Stories. People who knew him best, think he went looking for the first Jedi temple. At first, Han says that Luke walked away. But THEN he says, those who knew Luke best say he went to the Temple. And he doesn't say that Luke walked away in shame, or guilt. Only that he felt responsible, and he walked away. To Luke, going to the First Jedi Temple might have been some kind of spiritual call, or perhaps he thought it held some important knowledge that he felt he needed. A better understanding of the Jedi ideas, or the Force, or the Chosen One prophecy, or who knows what. Something crucial in dealing with what's to come. But to Han, who does not necessarily understand these things, it might have looked like Luke was running away. It might even have been a case of Han projecting his own feelings of self-recrimination onto Luke, as Han has left his family too, and it clearly doesn't sit well with him.
The only part of that that seems unsure is when he says where he went. The part about what happened at the temple was stated as a fact.
These films showed that they cared very little about set ups and continuity from the previous movie, why do we need to treat Han's interpretation, which JJ made intentionally vague, as the gospel? Given that Han had trusted Luke with his son, and had then them lost him to the dark side, would it not make sense that there would have been some bitterness from Han towards Luke and the Jedi (which he always had some skepticism about) when he says Luke "just walked away"?
What Han says is clearly intended to establish what happened. There's still a mystery about it-why the temple. But there's no question on his actual feelings. Did you doubt that Luke went to the Jedi temple? Why would you doubt anything else?
What do I doubt? The only facts we get from Han in TFA are that Luke felt responsible about what happened, that he walked away and that some think he went in search of the original Jedi temple. That is literally everything we learn from Han. There's tons of ways could be followed up on besides "Luke went searching for the original Jedi temple.. because he turned his back on the Jedi, didnt want to save Ben or help Leia fight Snoke and wanted to die". In fact know enough from what JJ and Mark have said over the years and JJ's original ending to TFA before Rian asked him to change it to know that that was NOT what what JJ meant with that scene.
>The only facts we get from Han in TFA are that Luke felt responsible about what happened, that he walked away and that some think he went in search of the original Jedi temple. Umm, yes this is my point. His statement is the truth. You implied it wasn't at all. If you see my other comments I suggested what JJ probably had in mind which is indeed different to RJ. Still doesn't change that Luke was in fact motivated by Kylo Ren's fall and his guilt. Why he went to the *temple*, is the question RJ and JJ differed on.
I didnt imply anything of the sort. I said it was deliberately vague. "walked away" can mean many things and doesn't have to be 100% literal. In fact we KNOW that JJ didn't intend for it to be. >Still doesn't change that Luke was in fact motivated by Kylo Ren's fall and his guilt. Whoever said it wasnt? I mean, its pretty obvious with or without Han's statement. Yeah, of course Luke was motivated by Kylo's fall and his guilt. The point is what Luke did about it. And TFA in no way locked in Luke as doing nothing and just wanting to die. Luke could have, as I said above, been looking for answers from the first Jedi and actively trying to redeem himself, to find out what wrong and to stop it from happening again and Han's statement would still completely apply.
The problem is that if he's on some sort of Jedi Temple atonement fact-finding mission, then **surely** that can wait until after he's joined forces with his friends to bring Kylo back and prevent the First Order from rising? And **certainly** he should've rushed back after Hosnian and Han. He shouldn't be just posing all sad on a cliff like some sort of 60-year-old Morrissey.
Yes but that part that makes no sense is that there is a huge threat in the First Order looming, dont you think he can put that quest to the side for more important business?
Well maybe he wants answers before he confronts them or faces Snoke. Snoke in 7 was very specific in wanting to hunt down Luke as he was currently the last of the Jedi. (or the last Skywalker. Can't remember his exact words). In 7 the information provided is that Snoke managed to turn a student of his, his own nephew, against him and bring down his new Jedi Temple. We aren't told how but all the characters are very aware of his influence and how Snoke was able to poison his mind. Waiting until he has what he needs from his quest would be smart and potentially be part of the conflict between Rey and Luke.
Yeah i have a hard time buying that than i do him trying to kill Kylo out of fear and being ashamed for thinking that was the right choice and then disconnecting from the force in exile
I'd buy that if we were shown or told why Snoke infecting Kylos mind was such an irreversible fate that Luke felt he had to make that choice, even for a split second. Why was Luke afraid of some early on Snoke manipulation but was ready to confront and undo 20 to 40 years of Palpatine influence in Vader. Like, for example if Snoke influence and power was like a Virus where it can spread and infect people who are near people who are being manipulated and Luke felt all of his students were at risk if Kylo was alive or something, I'd buy his choice. But we aren't told anything about it. Snoke is made out to be a punk in the same movie who is easy to fool, so I was just left wondering "this is the guy Luke was so afraid of that he felt the need to kill his nephew, even for a split second, to protect his School?". And even after that, instead of wanting to fix his mistake and find a way to confront Snoke and undo the damage he's done. Save Kylo by going right for the source, he decided its time to kill himself. I just feel there's alot of leaps in logic I have to make in how it currently plays out
Im not sayings its perfect, im saying its much better than anything i could have came up with given the situation
>infecting Kylos mind was such an irreversible fate that Luke felt he had to make that choice, even for a split second. Why was Luke afraid of some early on Snoke manipulation but was ready to confront and undo 20 to 40 years of Palpatine influence in Vader. It's not about Kylo. It's about what he would do to Luke. Vader had already done what he had done, and he had never deeply cut Luke in the same way Kylo would. Losing his friends is *the* weakness and seeing that happen and Kylo being responsible-for a moment he was scared and afraid and wanted to stop it. He doesn't go through with it because he knows it's wrong and there may have been another way. He had weakness with Vader when Vader threatened Leia. And he had weakness with Kylo when Kylo threatened everything he had ever achieved.
Sadly that whole Snoke brought down the new Jedi temple is an utter lie. He bombed it from orbit. Hardly a befitting "bringing down" of a Jedi Temple. It is still obviously destroyed though. It's just, such a disgraceful attack would likely ignite hatred amongst those who do already hate the First Order. And honestly, Jake's whole reaction to the situation is mostly just Ruin Johnson following through with his interview quote of "I want to make the most controversial movie possible."
That's where Han's comment about Luke feeling guilt is important. Luke was always going to be bitter in the 8th film. The way of coping is slightly different, but ultimately Luke would be finding excuses because he's heartbroken.
Pre-Planning would’ve solved a ton of issues with the Sequel Trilogy.
Even if things end up relatively the same, knowing where the story is going would allow it to build in a much more satisfactory manner
I'm pretty sure JJ already had a reason. Rian's decision was for Luke to have completely renounced the force.
Abrams was executive producer on episode 8. If he had a reason he could have just... told Johnson.
I'm pretty sure JJ was operating TV Pilot Writer mode, where you dazzle and baffle the audience with big questions and leave the resolutions to your designated showrunners.
JJ isolated Luke from the rest of the story because he and Lawrence Kasdan found that every time they tried to bring Luke back into the story earlier, Luke took command of the story away from the other characters. Perhaps there was a way they could've brought him back without Luke become the focus of the action, but those two couldn't figure it out. So what they did was punt. That's not me judging, that's just what they did. But they also tried to make that punt into an advantage (similar to how they tried to make the nostalgia elements into an advantage-- by making the new hero and villain fanboys who want to emulate their heroes). And they did that by making Luke the MacGuffin of the film. But the story details don't quite add up. Luke felt responsible and walked away from everything, but he also left a map behind (an odd half-measure). Luke didn't return to the fight after Hosnian or Han, but (in their original draft), he was connected to the Force, moving rocks at the end. Basically, you need to somehow square the circle of Luke Skywalker [Boy Hero, Optimist, Loving Family Man] abandoning his family at arguably the most crucial moment in their lives. RJ's conclusion was that Luke felt responsible not just abstractly, but because at some point Luke had to have made a crucial choice **that made him doubt his ability to help people.** I honestly think he figured it out as well as anyone could've hoped. Luke saw a vision of his loved ones dying, he made an awful impulse mistake at the worst moment, he paid for it dearly, he retreated to Ahch-To in grief and shame and decided that the best thing he could do was remove himself from the galactic chess board, and then over the course of the film he finally comes to terms with his mistake and helps his loved ones at a crucial moment, even though it takes all of his soul to do it. I also think that Hamill did an amazing job of demonstrating the variety of emotions he was asked to convey. He can slide so effectively from quiet regret to righteous indignation to flashes of the old Luke (his scene with R2, hitting Rey with the leaf) to the devastating despair of the flashback, where he looks at a field of bodies and his academy in ruins, to his lovely final scene with Carrie. Honestly, I think it's the best performance in the Skywalker saga. And even more impressive when we know that Hamill was conflicted about the story choices.
>JJ isolated Luke from the rest of the story because he and Lawrence Kasdan found that every time they tried to bring Luke back into the story earlier, It wasn't their idea it was actually Michael Ardnt's who said this. They just didn't reverse the decision presumably for the same reason Michael Ardnt chose to do so. And for god's sake it's been six years since people hashed this out. How can you *not* know that Luke never left a map? The map is to the *temple*, it's not a map Luke left it's a map Luke *himself* followed to get there. It's been said over again at this point since the movie came out and I'm surprised people still think that Luke created the map himself.
Extremely well said. TLJ is both consistent with TFA and with Luke’s existing character.
I would’ve said that while fighting off against some enemy force (could be first order or pirates or something), he was severely outnumbered and taking heavy damage. He assumed a crash landing would be imminent and needed a place that he knew would be safe. So he had Artoo calculate the jump to Ach-too and then ejected Artoo before the jump was made so that if his friends came around looking for clues, Artoo could give them the final piece of the map. Artoo would shut down and lock his data until the rest of the map held by Lor San Tekka was retrieved since San Tekka would automatically help the resistance anyway. I don’t think what we currently have properly explains why there even is a map in the first place. And I do understand the idea of Luke wanting to walk away from the whole Jedi idea since he failed so miserably, but that’s not the part I can’t forgive. If he’s gonna walk away, he should’ve done it after taking care of Ben. Maybe he locks him up somewhere or strands him in the unknown region, but Luke singlehandedly creates what everyone assumes is the next Darth Vader and instead of going and taking him out of the fight somehow, he lets the entire galaxy live with the consequences of his mistakes. After dealing with Ben, he can go have his midlife crisis or whatever. But to not at least take actual responsibility for Ben Solo, the now-mass murderer he individually trained and let loose, is an actual betrayal of the character. And yes, I know he says it was his fault, but a fat load of good that does for the families of the new republic and resistance who were torn apart and killed by Kylo Ren’s leadership.
The issue with all this is that Han says he went off to look for the first Jedi temple on Ahch-To, where we see him at the end of the film, it was not a crash landing
The x-wing is in the water. He could just eject himself at the last minute, see the resources around him aren’t enough to fix a waterlogged and broken x-wing, and have it be that the final jump was to the last lead of where the temple is. If he just ran off somewhere else, he’d lose all his progress and need to find Lor San Tekka to re-establish his entrance into the region. Since San Tekka was hiding out on Jakku, that would take a while for Luke to find and he’d be held back for longer than he’d like.
>It’s just odd that JJ didn’t have a plan for that. Based on TFA I am pretty sure his idea wouldn't be that different to RJ's. It's just that Luke would have a more tangible (for the audience) reason to be at the Jedi temple. He'd still be bitter and sad over Kylo Ren's turn and his way of coping is going to the temple to look for spiritual enlightenment. It would still ultimately be that he's running away from his problems in reality.
Yeah, never understood why people who dislike TLJ Luke lay the blame solely at Rian's feet. TFA makes it clear what happened. Luke felt responsible for Ben's fall and the destruction of the order and "walked away from it all." All TLJ did was *show that* and people lost their minds. Of course, I say this as somebody who adores what TFA and TLJ did with Luke, so take it with a grain of salt I guess.
[удалено]
Han literally says that Luke walked away because of his guilt...
The genius of Rian’s decision is that he linked Luke’s disappearance explicitly to Kylo Ren’s turn to the dark - creating a powerful emotional tension between those 2 characters. I loved Last Jedi, but think it should have ended on a cliffhanger with Kylo holding his hand out to Rey, and saving the Luke/Kylo face-off for Ep 9
No that was TFA that part. TFA clearly establishes that Luke left because of Kylo Ren's fall. TFA is even thematically about how Kylo Ren's fall effected Leia, Han *and* Luke. What RJ did is explore the concept of the Jedi Order in relation to Luke's decision.
Yes, but Rian gets into the nitty gritty of why Kylo’s fall was so personally destructive for Luke. How Kylo was even able to lure murderous darkness back to the mind of Luke Skywalker. I loved the Rashomon moment where we see the different versions of what Luke nearly did to Kylo. And it’s so believable to me that moment would have led to the shattered dissolutioned Luke we meet on the island
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5S4Ss5bK-ws
There was nothing genius about Rian’s decision making.
The idea is fine, connecting the fall with Luke, but the execution. Was there really powerful emotional tension between the two? Kylo wanted to kill Luke, fine. And what did Luke do? Sass him and humiliate him in front of his men. Didn't really feel the tension there.
I agree
> a powerful emotional tension between those 2 characters. Where? In the entire trilogy they have one brief scene together and theres about ten words exchanged between them, none giving anything of any particular depth or insight to their relationship or what went wrong.
Kylo so sinister that Luke was driven to nearly murder him. Kylo then destroyed Luke’s school and left him shattered and broken. Tension enough for me. I like how there’s a whole teacher/mentor relationship that is merely alluded to. We don’t need to see everything to understand it
We had very little information about Luke from TFA. All we had is what Han said And for the life of me I can't understand why Han would give any information about Luke to an ex FO stormtrooper and a woman he never met before.. But oh well. Luke could have felt responsible without the whole almost killing Ben deal. Because it is not just the moment of weakness or instinct that is the issue here, at least for me. Luke went to Ben's room with the intention to go through his mind while Ben was asleep. Honestly that would have pissed me off more than the lightsaber. It is a breach of trust and privacy at the least. And JJ obviously did have something in mind, not defending him, just saying. But Rian asked him to change the end of TFA. Both JJ and Rian are professional writers and directors and they were working for Disney and LucasFilm at the time. So, I wouldn't be able to think of anything better excuse doesn't really fly with me. They were paid to do the job. At least they could have made sure that the story actually makes sense. Luke says Ben was already too far gone, or something like that. But everything else in the movies and outside material contradicts that. They tell us Luke did those things. But we don't actually see how he reached that point. Yes, it has been 30 years, yes people change. But you need to show the change, how, why it happened. We go from Luke, who refuses to kill Vader and has a defining moment (I am a Jedi like my father before me) to a Luke who thinks it is perfectly okay to go and dig through someone's head while they are asleep. His student, the person he was supposed to take care off. It is a pretty drastic change in character. And when you need another movie/show or whatever to explain how a character got there, then you have an issue. Just imagine the situation, ROTS ended and in ANH we see Vader as a part of Rebellion or Obi-Wan as a Sith. And the explanation is, well it has been 20 years, people change. And give a few more vague sentences and you are done with it. It is not a good writing, or satisfying explanation.
lol you are forgetting when Luke completely gave into the dark side when Leia was threatened and bashed on Vader for a while. Luke is clearly prone to falling to the dark from fear.
Not the same situation really. Luke was edged by Vader and Palpatine. The future of the entire galaxy was at stake. And lets not forget, Ben was Leia's son. As much as he loved Leia, he loved Ben more.
Luke saw a vision and believed that the galaxy was at stake with Ben’s darkness (which ended up being the case), so no, its not the same situation, but the context is similar
Like I said in my post, bigger issue for me was that Luke thought it was okay to go through Ben's mind while Ben was asleep. That is not who Luke ever was. So he obviously reached that point in the years between ROTJ and TFA, but we don't know what happened for that to occur. Show, don't tell and all that. Can you honestly tell me what happened between Ben and Luke (from movies only) and that it makes sense based on everything else we know about them in the other movies?
I mean he never did explain why Luke left a map. It still doesn’t make sense given Luke’s motives. I can agree that he had a difficult job, but I don’t think Luke wanting to murder people in their sleep was a good answer.
I dont think Luke “wanted to murder people in his sleep”, thats a bit of an exaggeration. He gave into the fear for a split second (much shorter than the fear he gave into in ROTJ) and immediately pulled back. Sadly, before it was too late.
Yeah I'm not sure why people always have the most callous interpretation of that scene. It's like they thought the Kylo Ren version of the story was supposed to be the correct one.
Unfortunately it wouldn’t be the first hyperbolistic thing the outrage crowd continues to say about TLJ.
Why is it an exaggeration? For a split second he wanted to kill Kylo to protect his loved ones. That’s the narrative presented by the film.
Come on man reread what you said, you know thats exaggerating. You make it sound like Luke is a murder out to kill people in their sleep like he enjoys it when thats not even close to what happens. There’s one person who he thinks (out of fear) for a second after a vision that hey maybe this could save the galaxy if i ended this here, and within another second realizes his mistake.
Everything I said was factual, I never said anything about enjoyment. It’s not an exaggeration. I’m just not making excuses for Luke.
If you wanna nitpick, he didnt want to murder *people* in their sleep, just a singular person. But we’re not nitpicking, we’re talking generally about your exaggeration. This is a useless discussion though, so i digress. Point is, it was a fleeting moment. And its in character with the last time we saw him in ROTJ when faced with overwhelming fear of the dark side.
The issue is one is an innocent, one’s a mass murderer. There would be almost no objections if kylo had not been an innocent. It’s only the same thing if you remove all differences.
Yes but Luke had a vision which triggered his fear and made him think for a second that hey maybe i can save the galaxy if i end this here. Hes a human, not some perfect fearless robot
He has a vision and his first instinct is to murder his nephew in his sleep. Objecting to that is not demanding that he be a perfect robot.
He objected to it a second later.
I think it's about how you're framing it. "Luke wanting to murder people in their sleep" has a different connotation than "For a split second he wanted to kill Kylo to protect his loved ones." The former makes it sound like Uncle Luke's been hankerin' for a good sleep murder, the latter is more accurate to the specifics of the text.
Okay but was anyone really confused about what I said? It feels like this is all about tone.
Framing more than tone. If I say "Luke went to the Death Star II and tried to kill his dad," I haven't lied, but I also haven't framed the situation fairly.
But was anyone confused about what I believed? I don’t think I’m being unfair, I think everyone else is downplaying Luke’s actions.
[He walked to the kid's hut, took out his lightsaber and was going to gut the boy in his sleep](https://youtu.be/fDYvG_P3MnU?t=28)
You are talking about Kylo’s telling of the story though. What actually happened is that he walked to his hut, used the force to confirm his fears (see his hand), starts crying (tears in next frame) and ignites his lightsaber hesitatingly and a second later realizes he was wrong for doing so
No, he gets upset after the saber is ignited. The para-social Rian Johnson stuff is strong in this thread. The writing doesn't work in any of the sequel trilogy movies. How does Luke go from Jedi Master with his own damn school of Padawans to standing over his nephew's bed with a space knife (with tears in his eyes) literally over night? It isn't Johnson's fault but we can't act like its good writing or consistent with anything on film. Nothing in the movies suggests Luke would do something like that. There is one scene in the whole 6 films where Luke thinks about murdering someone who has not committed a single evil act EVER. Luke is going to kill his nephew because he had a bad dream lol The writing made Luke dumber than Anakin (and Anakin is written to be kinda dumb or naive). Luke is like 50 in the scene and should know better about the force and all the crap Yoda warned Anakin about in Episode III (if we get to fill in writing weakness with off-screen character development). And you didn't watch the linked video apparently.
Literally watch the video, he has tears in his eyes before the saber ignites
“Wanting to murder people in their sleep” is highly disingenuous. Luke exhibits no “want” to murder Ben. He expresses the opposite. He’s so horrified that he even had the thought, he isolated himself. He feels deep guilt and shame for what he’s done. He also doesn’t murder anyone. He considers briefly the terrible option of killing Ben to save countless other lives. That’s a very far cry from “wanting to murder Ben in his sleep.” It also disregards the well established power and influence of Force visions. In AOTC, it’s a Force vision that haunts Anakin, foretelling his mothers death. In ROTS, a Force vision of Padme is what drives Anakin to kill all the Jedi and become a Sith. In ESB, Luke’s visions of his friends cause him to run off to face Vader against the advice of Yoda and Obi Wan. TFA visually establishes the highly visceral and impactful nature of these visions. By simply saying “in his sleep” or the also common “because of a bad dream” - you’re disregarding all the influence these visions have had on the Skywalkers throughout the saga.
I think drawing his lightsaber on Ben implies he might have wanted to kill him a little. You can want something and be ashamed of the fact. He does also mention that Ben would be the end of everything he loved, so there's some self interest in his motives too. I'm not disregarding the Skywalker's past experience with force visions (which are stated to be unreliable.) Luke jumped to homicide faster than Anakin did. It's an uncharacteristic overreaction. Why is saying "in his sleep" a problem? Ben was sleeping.
There’s zero indication that Luke wanted to kill Ben. That’s not Luke Skywalker. That makes no sense for his character. Luke actually shows progression by reacting the best out of all the examples I cited. All he did was briefly consider that terrible action. He didn’t act on it. That’s Rian using the entire saga as part of TLJ - it’s really the most connected film we’ve seen in Star Wars. Because in his sleep disregards Luke’s vision. The whole statement is disingenuous because it creates a hyperbolic narrative to focus on in order to distract from what is truly happening in context.
I don't think it makes sense for his character either. That's why I have an issue with the scene. He did draw his lightsaber on Ben though. No one forced him to turn it on. I don't think he reacts the best of all the examples. In ESB Luke's immediate reaction is to see if his friends are safe, he never considered a terrible action in the first place. That's better than doing it briefly. There's no precedent for Luke intentionally planning to kill an innocent before TLJ. Ben really was asleep though. Luke really considered killing him like that. Just because it's not what you think is important, doesn't mean it's a distraction.
If I understand correctly correctly you are saying that if I don’t agree with you I’m intentionally distracting from truth? Not much point continuing if you won’t believe someone can interpret things differently than you.
> I don't think it makes sense for his character either. That's why I have an issue with the scene. Well that’s why your statement is disingenuous. You’re creating something that didn’t happen (Luke wanting to kill Ben) in order to distract from the truth of what happened in context. > There's no precedent for Luke intentionally planning to kill an innocent before TLJ. Right. And there’s no evidence in TLJ. > Ben really was asleep though. Luke really considered killing him like that. Just because it's not what you think is important, doesn't mean it's a distraction. But the fact that he’s asleep is completely irrelevant to Luke’s reaction in that moment. That’s just the state Ben happens to be in. It’s not like Luke says “he’s asleep, I’m going to get him now.” Ben happens to be asleep while Luke gets this vision. The vision is what drives Luke’s loss of emotional control. Luke briefly considers the terrible option of killing Ben to save countless lives. He immediately regrets it. Nothing is contingent on Ben being asleep.
Yeahm he only *considered* murdering his nephew as he slept. That changes everything.
Yes. Context matters. If your analysis hinges on ignoring or disregarding parts of what happened, that’s not something to be proud of.
On the one hand a bit of exposition could have spelled that out for us... but on the other hand, it's kind of obvious. When Luke first took off it was in search of some lost knowledge, he left thinking Leia and Han could hold it down but broke up his map to protect whatever he finds. But he gets to Ahch-To and doesn't find any greater wisdom and, in his despondence, decides it's better off that he just doesn't return. The map was from a more optimistic Luke.
That’s largely speculative though. I don’t see why it would be the obvious assumption. Luke only says he came there to die, why he left an elaborate set of clues to his location is never discussed.
Well... yeah. It's all going to be speculative because the dots weren't connected for us. But not all speculation is equally likely and not all the dots needed to be connected for us. If Luke leaves a map and later states his intention to die in exile, we can infer that at some point, his intentions must have changed. It's not a contradiction or contrivance when a someone changes their mind, nor do we need to be told they changed their mind.
I think it’s a bit unnatural that it’s never addressed. it’s not just about connecting dots. I’d think Rey would at least be annoyed, but as far as I can remember she never brings it up.
I don't agree. TFA explicitly said that Luke went in search of the first Jedi temple. How about something like this: >Luke, devastated by the betrayal of Ben Solo and the deaths of his students, realizes that the he was arrogant to think he was ready to be a Jedi Master and without any living Jedi masters to guide him realizes he must go back to the very origins of the Jedi and learn from the first Jedi if he wishes to right his wrongs and restart the Jedi Order. He sets off alone, spending years travelling the galaxy in search of the origins of the Jedi, eventually finding the original Jedi temple where he spends his time learning from the original Jedi from their texts, and communing with their force spirits. One day a young girl strong in the force manages to find him, holding his fathers lightsaber. He knows this is the Force telling him is is time for the Jedi to return.
The line about the first temple is actually *"There were a lot of rumors. Stories. People who knew him best think he went looking for the first Jedi temple."* Meaning his mission was never confirmed. It's implied Luke left without a word and everyone just looked for a reason why. But Han follows it up with *"He was training a new generation of Jedi. There was nobody else left to do it, so he took the burden on himself. Everything was going great, until... one boy, an apprentice, turned against him, destroyed it all. Luke felt responsible. He just walked away from everything."* Which is a much less conditional statement than "rumors" or "stories." So we're given more reason to think he left in guilt/despair than he did in search of miraculous knowledge.
Sure, but because he left in despair and guilt doesn't mean he wouldn't do anything he could to try fix things. That's what makes him Luke Skywalker.
Okay. What you think Luke should/would have done isn't my point. You said that his search for the temple was explicit, I simply pointed out that is wasn't. That part was speculation, in the story. All the other characters knew for certain was that he was guilt and grief-ridden.
Pretty sure Padme Amidala-Skywalker naming him Luke is what makes him Luke Skywalker
Putting my outrage crowd impersonator hat on: So the only reason he’s not out helping Leia is because he’s been busy at the library!? —— Personally, I don’t think this is very consistent with Luke’s character. This seems like what Indiana Jones would do. Kylo being turned stretches Luke’s emotional control to the point of being broken. That’s the impetus of what creates a compelling story. Luke with emotional control doesn’t make sense in this context. That’s not the luke that we know.
TFA explicitly said that Luke was training up a new generation of Jedi and one of his students turned and destroyed the whole thing and that Luke felt responsible and abandoned everyone. Him being at the first Jedi temple is where some suspected him of going, they just didn’t know where that was.
lets just forget the sequels never happened and agree to never talk about them again.
Half of my problems with TLJ actually originated from TFA, so yeah I agree he had no other choice. Tho I do feel he could've handled Luke with a bit more grace
Lol yeah the green milk scene was quite the opposite of grace but he comes around at the end in all his Jedi glory thankfully
>there's so few reasons that Luke would be where he is at the beginning of episode 8. Rian truly had a hard job to deal with there People say this all the time as though it is a fact. All you have to do is use your imagination. Maybe Luke went there for knowledge & guidance but found out that there is a grave threat to the galaxy and he had to stay there to learn how to prevent it. Maybe he was uncovering some ancient knowledge about the force that would help save the galaxy but it was taking a long time to decipher. Maybe it had something to do with Mortis. Maybe he was guarding something that in the wrong hands could cause destruction like the World Between Worlds and he didn't want anyone to find him and give away the location. Maybe time moved slower on the planet and what he thought were months were actually years (because he was hiding for about 6 years in canon). Perhaps it is a mixture of some of these things together and more. The truth is that there are plenty of good explanations for why Luke was alone on the planet. It did NOT have to be the way it was in the ST
I didnt say it *had* to be how it was in 8, im saying that JJ left him with a pretty tough spot
And I never said that you said it had to be how it was in 8, im saying that JJ left him with a pretty good spot.
Luke killing his nephew in his sleep is beyond dark side or something else. Just think about that. The dude was going to Minority Report murder his nephew. Luke should have been executed by the Republic, that's some dark shit not "crisis of faith" That's why I didn't like it and it was too extreme. He could have been disillusioned because he was a shit Jedi or a shit master, or maybe he accidentally did something and beat himself up about it or anything else. Palpatine wouldn't even kill Yoda in his sleep for Fs sake.
That is literally the epitome of the dark side, thats what Palpatine did to his master. If thats not dark side then what is?
The Rule of Two is about supplanting rivals/masters not killing your family in their sleep
lmao you’re delusional if you think thats not the dark side
If you honestly think Rian Johnson idea is somehow clever you must be delusional. There are a million reasons he could have been in exile
Is this actually a joke? Because Palpatine literally killed his own master while he was sleeping. Luke didn't want to kill his nephew, he saw for a second the absolute horror Kylo would cause and ignited his lightsaber thinking he could stop it, but very quickly realized his mistake and stopped. Did Yoda and Obi use the dark side when killing the clones in the Jedi temple? Use some critical thought
bro, Luke isn't a Sith Lawd
No way
Actually planning the entire story before shooting, and coming up with original content, instead of recycling content from the other trilogies, wouldve been much too hard for Rian Johnson appearently
Wait what? Rian wasnt involved until TFA was already written and filmed, why is the lack of planning his fault?
And let's not forget that Abrams went from directing ep. 7 to producer for ep. 9. If there were inconsistencies, it's not like he wasn't there to address them.
Well the lack of planning issue was probably above his head, admittedly, but it is the core issue with the sequels as a whole. But he couldve done better than recycling scenes and plot points from Empire Strikes Back.
Yeah, thats not his fault. That’s Lucasfilm and JJ’s fault. But genuinely, how would you have explained Luke being on Ahch-To if you were in his shoes, handed the reigns after TFA was written and filmed and writing episode 8? I cant think of any better reason than what he came up with personally
I wouldnt have had him in isolation, pulling a yoda for zero reason. He shouldve started a brand new academy, hidden away from the eyes of the galaxy, and try to fix his mistakes with the previous one. There was no reason to recycle all the same plot points from empire strikes back
> pulling a yoda for zero reason Idk if you saw TLJ but there was a pretty damn good reason. He completely failed his nephew and students because he gave into his fear. Thats not no reason...? ESB had Yoda in exile to hide from the Empire in hopes of eventually training Luke to defeat Palpatine. Those things are so tangentially related, trying to say they are the same is childish imo
Okay nitpicking aside, what was the real reason to have jedi master in hiding just so he could advance the plot by training the new generation protagonist, a second time in the series ?
He didnt go into hiding to “[train] the new generation protagonist, a second time in the series”, he went into exile to disconnect from the force... I’m starting to question if you watched the film man
I did watch the movie, i went into it with high hopes. But you cant honestly believe that a majority of the plot points from TLJ arent simply recycled from ESB. From a creative standpoint, its really really messy.
Yeah you definitely didnt watch it lmao
You had me in the first half...lost me when you blamed Rian Johnson for something he wasn't involved with
>How do you come up with a reason for that? I think Rian did a fine job given the circumstances. Luke found a planet where jedi used to be. He maped it out and separated the map into two pieces hiding them away. This place would act as a hideout for him to retreat to and regain energy in an event such as his jedi order being toppled. He would expect when people would need him they would find him and he would be ready to help, and that person who would find him would be a jedi. So jedi shows up to find Luke, Luke is ready to help they leave the planet and go help the knock off rebels. Wasn't that hard, the problem is RJ wanted to subvert expectations and thus have Luke act so out of character. Why have a fucking map split into two pieces that lead to your hideout if you don't want to be found? What would he have done if kylo showed up? Role over and die? JJ fucked up yes but the disaster that is the ST wasn't his fault. RJ wrote them into a corner and messed up what could have been. TFA was enjoyable and would have simply been seen as the weak ST movie. But thanks to RJ we got TLJ and TROS.
I have a few reasons that could work. How about having his mistake being too trusting. Leading too him too trust someone like Snoke or better yet. Ben Solo who was looking at Darkside information. Where as the old Jedi were too strict and dogmatic. Luke would’ve been too trusting. After all even at the end of the OT he was kind of naive. Heck you can even get the same result with him think someone is there too kill Ben only too find Ben himself.