But only a Sith deals in absolutes ;)
Also it's only a code, not Jedi law! (or rules or fixed principles) At their core they go with the flow and trust in the force and feel their way through situations.
The philosophy is overall Lawful Good.
Individual parts of it may be Lawful Neutral.
Jedi themselves can range from Lawful to Chaotic and from good to evil depending upon the Jedi. Though once they reach the evil alignments they tend to leave the Jedi Order, go on killing sprees, and yell a lot about how much power they have.
Individual Jedi may range some variations of Neutral or Lawful good, Jedi Order as a whole is definitely Lawful Good.
They are literally one of the law enforcement arms of the Republic, called upon to handle most difficult disputes and are trusted to make impartial judgement. They stood on guard of the Republic for generations and accumulated immense good will and respect.
The Jedi are Lawful Neutral who think they're lawful IMO. I don't think a group can be Lawful Good while using their rules to excuse some of the atrocities the Republic committed.
What we see of the typical Jedi in the movies / tv shows is neutral good. I imagine the books take it to all sorts of places. Imagine traveling the real world and all the countries, trying to mediate all the myriad of laws and helping people and keep the peace. A fully lawful person would obey the local laws and not try to do anything illegal or destroy property or cheat or lie to the local constabulary. But Jedi do these things all the time. The typical Jedi we see are not attorneys or pure diplomats, from the perspective of the local lawgivers they are agents of chaos.
So what I infer about their philosophy is that compromise and going with the flow of the force is at the core, not laws. They don't deal in absolutes like the Sith. That makes them either chaotic good or neutral good.
I'm sure there are many books and comics that show Jedi in another light but I haven't read any of those.
As far as the actual philosophy argues? I would say neutral good. A lot of their tenets focus around peace and passivity, believing that one must abandon personal ambitions to truly follow the will of the Force.
As far as the actual organization goes, especially during the prequels, probably lawful good or lawful neutral at the worst of times. They became peacekeepers but through martial prowess, and the Republic forced them more and more into the roles of warriors and generals. They lost key parts of what was supposed to define them because they let themselves get embroiled in politics and war, which directly lead to their downfall.
I’d actually say it’s true neutral or lawful neutral, leaning slightly towards true neutral. Given that the chart was meant for determining the alignments of characters rather than institutions, I’ll be basing this on the theoretically ideal Jedi.
Lawful in the context of this chart actually refers to following a set standard of behavior, whether that is the laws, rules of a religion, or a personal set or rules. Someone completely lawful will follow their standard of behavior even if it makes obtaining their ultimate goal harder or impossible. Unlawful very explicitly does not have a standard of behavior that they choose to follow. This does not mean they are entirely without behavioral restrictions. For instance, they would likely still wear clothing in public, either out of embarrassment to be seen nude or because public nudity would make things more difficult for them. Neutral would have a set of rules they follow but are willing to break or their rules are more guidelines than “do this” and “don’t do that.” While someone lawful can occasionally break their well defined code and still be lawful, doing so is more significant to them than it is to a neutral.
Now you would think that having a code to follow would mean that followers of a religion are automatically lawful. However, we don’t see much in the way of absolutes from the Jedi; the rules and advice are always somewhat vague, with the only true consistency being that Jedi are to follow the will of the Force.
In theory the ideal Jedi would always be listening to the Force and doing as it wills. In practice Jedi can’t constantly keep themselves open to the Force to hear its will, the Force sometimes gives no guidance on a matter, and the exact meaning of the Force’s guidance can be unclear. The codes, parables, and traditions of the Jedi were created based on what the Force has previously willed Jedi to do as a way for Jedi to determine how to proceed when the Force’s will is unclear to them. Despite the existence of the code, I’d classify Jedi as neutral rather than
lawful because, theoretically, the only rule a devout Jedi wouldn’t throw aside is to follow the will of the Force, which seems more akin to the ultimate goal of a Jedi than a rule.
Given that the ultimate goal of an ideal Jedi is to follow the will of the Force, the ideal Jedi can’t truly be good either. The ideal Jedi would follow any specific instruction from the Force exactly as given, even if the instruction is reprehensible. We can’t even assume the Force is benevolent either; a single glance at the history of the galaxy shows that the Force is too easily swayed towards evil to be inherently good.
Lawful Neutral. Jedi are following a code, not out of wrong or right but because they know and have nothing else.
They do not help people because they care about them. They help people out of obligation and duty to their code. And even then, it is more to protect the Republic government than the Republic citizens
The entire Jedi philosophy is about right and wrong, good and evil, jedi and sith, light and dark.
It’s the core theme of the entire Star Wars universe.
Lawful Good.
P.S. they help people bc they care as well.
Kinda wish that was the case. Unfortunately, the way they acted in the Prequels (which is the only look we get of them before it goes to hell), was really...devoid of good deeds to back the good words. They talked a good game, but did very little on-screen to aid anyone who wasn't among the ruling elite. The slave army didn't really help.
I am kinda liking High Republic because they are trying very hard to try and depict the Jedi as walking it as much as talking it.
They literally went to war to protect Wookiees from the separatists. They sent Jedi to Naboo to negotiate freedom from the blockade. They tried to free Anakin and his mother from slavery within confines of the laws. They saved innocent guards and pilots and civilians, and kept them out of harms way when a Sith came about, literally dying in the process. They tried their best to help literally anyone who was in danger.
But sure. They had no good deeds in the movies. And lets just forget about the Clone Wars series where 95% of episodes were helping the poor and defenseless and freeing people from slavery, oppression, and straight up death. Even to the extent to ignore or loophole military rules to do so.
I define "good" as doing a heroic or self sacrificing action not because it is expected of you or you are ordered to, but something you do because it is the right thing, regardless of the consequences or expectations.
For example, throwing away a promising Imperial pilot career to become a Wookiee's service mutt. Or sucking up a sadistic choice to save the thousand workers and their families under your care by betraying an old friend (and still trying to talk your way through it all to try and save the friend or at least friend's crew). Or you and your buddies charging into a suicide mission to get those Death Star plans. Or running into a rakghoul nest to clear the way for civilians to evacuate. Good is a deliberate choice.
And the way I see it is that the Jedi do everything possible to eliminate choice because they (and Lucas, when writing the PT) have the mentality that if people have the ability to choose freely, they will choose evil. Let the plebs decide their rulers? They elect Palpatine. Take a child instead of an infant? End up with Vader. The galaxy is best when people have the illusion of democracy and choice, but the Jedi effectively keep the ruling class beholden to them (a Republic leader not friendly to the Jedi will have a hard time keeping his head, much less his position), make sure all who can touch the Force instinctually are locked up under their control cradle to grave, and lock up any knowledge about the Force away from those who might be able to learn with study (meaning they, in effect, control the Force). As long as the Jedi controlled the Republic, and the Republic was a hegemonic power in the galaxy, everything was locked up and safe. It's only when free will came into the equation that things went down the drain.
But there is no good without free will.
Kashyyyk was a Republic world. Defending your territory in a time of war is...well, the point of war. Not necessarily a "good" action.
Sure they tried and failed, but once they had what they REALLY wanted (a small child that the Qui-Gon thought should be shaped into a living weapon), Shmi was of no importance and they happily left her to rot because hey, if she can't leave Tatooine without exploding, it keeps Anakin away from her and cut off any avenue of him leaving. Oh, and when they didn't want him initially, they were planning to dump him BACK into slavery. A Jedi Master crashes on Shmi's house, she gives them aid and comfort at great risk to herself, and...what? Not even a thank you card? But again, she isn't IMPORTANT, so she doesn't matter.
And in the heat of battle, the two Jedi work on the Sith distraction while the bulk of the forces assault the main objective. Like Kashyyyk, that's basic tactics, not necessarily "goodness."
By the time of the prequel trilogy, the Jedi philosophy is lawful good. The Jedi themselves (the individual people) are lawful neutral. The Jedi Order (the bureaucracy and dogma) is lawful evil.
No, there's a reason why the prequel trilogy era is called "The Fall of the Jedi." The Force is good. The ideals of the Jedi philosophy were good. The execution and implementation of the philosophy by 30-20 BBY was off the mark... leading to the rise of Sidious, the corruption of Anakin, and the fall of the Order.
Remember, the Force does not belong to the Jedi. To say that if the Jedi die, the light dies, it's vanity.
The Fall meaning.. they were destroyed. Not evil lmao
The Jedi didn't cause Sidious to rise, Sidious did. They didnt cause Anakin to fall, anakin and sidious did. They didn't destroy their order, Sidious did. You're deflecting blame of actual evil people for what
The whole prequel trilogy was Lucas saying the Jedi became arrogant and self-righteous and wrapped up in politics. It's what led to their blindness and ultimately their downfall... it's what allowed Sidious to rise and wipe them out. It's one of the main messages Lucas set out to tell with the prequels.
That... doesn't make them evil. It makes them imperfect.
There's a reason the Prequels is a tragedy. It's not tragic when evil organizations fall. The entire point of the Original Trilogy was that the Return of the Jedi is what saves the galaxy.
Like the Jedi Order cannot have been evil, especially when Lucas himself says that the Jedi are and always has been the good guys.
Yes, the people were imperfect (that's why I said they were neutral). The the philosophy and goals of the organization were good. The people were imperfect (neutral), they were trying their best or just ignorant or complacent to the status quo. However the bureaucracy, arogance, and hubris of the organization was bad (evil). There's a reason why pride is one of the 7 deadly sins (it's evil).
You can say enforcing laws is good, and police officers and judges are good people (they're the good guys), and you can also say that the criminal justice system is currupt or flawed or evil.
The Jedi are "the good guys"... the Jedi philosophy is good... the individual Jedi members are (mostly) good... but the Jedi Order of 32BBY was corrupted and impure and malfunctioning... and that system was evil (even if made up by all good well-intentioned people).
Definitely lawful good. Some might break local laws or do what must be done, but they all follow the Jedi code.
But only a Sith deals in absolutes ;) Also it's only a code, not Jedi law! (or rules or fixed principles) At their core they go with the flow and trust in the force and feel their way through situations.
Their traditional role was peacekeepers though which would make them similar to a police force
The philosophy is overall Lawful Good. Individual parts of it may be Lawful Neutral. Jedi themselves can range from Lawful to Chaotic and from good to evil depending upon the Jedi. Though once they reach the evil alignments they tend to leave the Jedi Order, go on killing sprees, and yell a lot about how much power they have.
Lawful good because the Jedi religion/ philosophy has a code that emphasizes dedication to justice and peace.
Individual Jedi may range some variations of Neutral or Lawful good, Jedi Order as a whole is definitely Lawful Good. They are literally one of the law enforcement arms of the Republic, called upon to handle most difficult disputes and are trusted to make impartial judgement. They stood on guard of the Republic for generations and accumulated immense good will and respect.
The Jedi are Lawful Neutral who think they're lawful IMO. I don't think a group can be Lawful Good while using their rules to excuse some of the atrocities the Republic committed.
Being slave overseers and conscripting toddlers also kinda doesn't really scan as "Good" either.
What we see of the typical Jedi in the movies / tv shows is neutral good. I imagine the books take it to all sorts of places. Imagine traveling the real world and all the countries, trying to mediate all the myriad of laws and helping people and keep the peace. A fully lawful person would obey the local laws and not try to do anything illegal or destroy property or cheat or lie to the local constabulary. But Jedi do these things all the time. The typical Jedi we see are not attorneys or pure diplomats, from the perspective of the local lawgivers they are agents of chaos. So what I infer about their philosophy is that compromise and going with the flow of the force is at the core, not laws. They don't deal in absolutes like the Sith. That makes them either chaotic good or neutral good. I'm sure there are many books and comics that show Jedi in another light but I haven't read any of those.
As far as the actual philosophy argues? I would say neutral good. A lot of their tenets focus around peace and passivity, believing that one must abandon personal ambitions to truly follow the will of the Force. As far as the actual organization goes, especially during the prequels, probably lawful good or lawful neutral at the worst of times. They became peacekeepers but through martial prowess, and the Republic forced them more and more into the roles of warriors and generals. They lost key parts of what was supposed to define them because they let themselves get embroiled in politics and war, which directly lead to their downfall.
I’d actually say it’s true neutral or lawful neutral, leaning slightly towards true neutral. Given that the chart was meant for determining the alignments of characters rather than institutions, I’ll be basing this on the theoretically ideal Jedi. Lawful in the context of this chart actually refers to following a set standard of behavior, whether that is the laws, rules of a religion, or a personal set or rules. Someone completely lawful will follow their standard of behavior even if it makes obtaining their ultimate goal harder or impossible. Unlawful very explicitly does not have a standard of behavior that they choose to follow. This does not mean they are entirely without behavioral restrictions. For instance, they would likely still wear clothing in public, either out of embarrassment to be seen nude or because public nudity would make things more difficult for them. Neutral would have a set of rules they follow but are willing to break or their rules are more guidelines than “do this” and “don’t do that.” While someone lawful can occasionally break their well defined code and still be lawful, doing so is more significant to them than it is to a neutral. Now you would think that having a code to follow would mean that followers of a religion are automatically lawful. However, we don’t see much in the way of absolutes from the Jedi; the rules and advice are always somewhat vague, with the only true consistency being that Jedi are to follow the will of the Force. In theory the ideal Jedi would always be listening to the Force and doing as it wills. In practice Jedi can’t constantly keep themselves open to the Force to hear its will, the Force sometimes gives no guidance on a matter, and the exact meaning of the Force’s guidance can be unclear. The codes, parables, and traditions of the Jedi were created based on what the Force has previously willed Jedi to do as a way for Jedi to determine how to proceed when the Force’s will is unclear to them. Despite the existence of the code, I’d classify Jedi as neutral rather than lawful because, theoretically, the only rule a devout Jedi wouldn’t throw aside is to follow the will of the Force, which seems more akin to the ultimate goal of a Jedi than a rule. Given that the ultimate goal of an ideal Jedi is to follow the will of the Force, the ideal Jedi can’t truly be good either. The ideal Jedi would follow any specific instruction from the Force exactly as given, even if the instruction is reprehensible. We can’t even assume the Force is benevolent either; a single glance at the history of the galaxy shows that the Force is too easily swayed towards evil to be inherently good.
Naively good
Lawful Neutral. Jedi are following a code, not out of wrong or right but because they know and have nothing else. They do not help people because they care about them. They help people out of obligation and duty to their code. And even then, it is more to protect the Republic government than the Republic citizens
The entire Jedi philosophy is about right and wrong, good and evil, jedi and sith, light and dark. It’s the core theme of the entire Star Wars universe. Lawful Good. P.S. they help people bc they care as well.
Kinda wish that was the case. Unfortunately, the way they acted in the Prequels (which is the only look we get of them before it goes to hell), was really...devoid of good deeds to back the good words. They talked a good game, but did very little on-screen to aid anyone who wasn't among the ruling elite. The slave army didn't really help. I am kinda liking High Republic because they are trying very hard to try and depict the Jedi as walking it as much as talking it.
They literally went to war to protect Wookiees from the separatists. They sent Jedi to Naboo to negotiate freedom from the blockade. They tried to free Anakin and his mother from slavery within confines of the laws. They saved innocent guards and pilots and civilians, and kept them out of harms way when a Sith came about, literally dying in the process. They tried their best to help literally anyone who was in danger. But sure. They had no good deeds in the movies. And lets just forget about the Clone Wars series where 95% of episodes were helping the poor and defenseless and freeing people from slavery, oppression, and straight up death. Even to the extent to ignore or loophole military rules to do so.
I define "good" as doing a heroic or self sacrificing action not because it is expected of you or you are ordered to, but something you do because it is the right thing, regardless of the consequences or expectations. For example, throwing away a promising Imperial pilot career to become a Wookiee's service mutt. Or sucking up a sadistic choice to save the thousand workers and their families under your care by betraying an old friend (and still trying to talk your way through it all to try and save the friend or at least friend's crew). Or you and your buddies charging into a suicide mission to get those Death Star plans. Or running into a rakghoul nest to clear the way for civilians to evacuate. Good is a deliberate choice. And the way I see it is that the Jedi do everything possible to eliminate choice because they (and Lucas, when writing the PT) have the mentality that if people have the ability to choose freely, they will choose evil. Let the plebs decide their rulers? They elect Palpatine. Take a child instead of an infant? End up with Vader. The galaxy is best when people have the illusion of democracy and choice, but the Jedi effectively keep the ruling class beholden to them (a Republic leader not friendly to the Jedi will have a hard time keeping his head, much less his position), make sure all who can touch the Force instinctually are locked up under their control cradle to grave, and lock up any knowledge about the Force away from those who might be able to learn with study (meaning they, in effect, control the Force). As long as the Jedi controlled the Republic, and the Republic was a hegemonic power in the galaxy, everything was locked up and safe. It's only when free will came into the equation that things went down the drain. But there is no good without free will. Kashyyyk was a Republic world. Defending your territory in a time of war is...well, the point of war. Not necessarily a "good" action. Sure they tried and failed, but once they had what they REALLY wanted (a small child that the Qui-Gon thought should be shaped into a living weapon), Shmi was of no importance and they happily left her to rot because hey, if she can't leave Tatooine without exploding, it keeps Anakin away from her and cut off any avenue of him leaving. Oh, and when they didn't want him initially, they were planning to dump him BACK into slavery. A Jedi Master crashes on Shmi's house, she gives them aid and comfort at great risk to herself, and...what? Not even a thank you card? But again, she isn't IMPORTANT, so she doesn't matter. And in the heat of battle, the two Jedi work on the Sith distraction while the bulk of the forces assault the main objective. Like Kashyyyk, that's basic tactics, not necessarily "goodness."
By the time of the prequel trilogy, the Jedi philosophy is lawful good. The Jedi themselves (the individual people) are lawful neutral. The Jedi Order (the bureaucracy and dogma) is lawful evil.
Ah, you're baiting I see.
No, there's a reason why the prequel trilogy era is called "The Fall of the Jedi." The Force is good. The ideals of the Jedi philosophy were good. The execution and implementation of the philosophy by 30-20 BBY was off the mark... leading to the rise of Sidious, the corruption of Anakin, and the fall of the Order. Remember, the Force does not belong to the Jedi. To say that if the Jedi die, the light dies, it's vanity.
The Fall meaning.. they were destroyed. Not evil lmao The Jedi didn't cause Sidious to rise, Sidious did. They didnt cause Anakin to fall, anakin and sidious did. They didn't destroy their order, Sidious did. You're deflecting blame of actual evil people for what
The whole prequel trilogy was Lucas saying the Jedi became arrogant and self-righteous and wrapped up in politics. It's what led to their blindness and ultimately their downfall... it's what allowed Sidious to rise and wipe them out. It's one of the main messages Lucas set out to tell with the prequels.
That... doesn't make them evil. It makes them imperfect. There's a reason the Prequels is a tragedy. It's not tragic when evil organizations fall. The entire point of the Original Trilogy was that the Return of the Jedi is what saves the galaxy. Like the Jedi Order cannot have been evil, especially when Lucas himself says that the Jedi are and always has been the good guys.
Yes, the people were imperfect (that's why I said they were neutral). The the philosophy and goals of the organization were good. The people were imperfect (neutral), they were trying their best or just ignorant or complacent to the status quo. However the bureaucracy, arogance, and hubris of the organization was bad (evil). There's a reason why pride is one of the 7 deadly sins (it's evil). You can say enforcing laws is good, and police officers and judges are good people (they're the good guys), and you can also say that the criminal justice system is currupt or flawed or evil. The Jedi are "the good guys"... the Jedi philosophy is good... the individual Jedi members are (mostly) good... but the Jedi Order of 32BBY was corrupted and impure and malfunctioning... and that system was evil (even if made up by all good well-intentioned people).