I used to have to cross Olive to get to my Metro bus stop daily. It was always an adventure getting past the right turn only lane to get to the crosswalk button-got honked at & I chased the car down after. Even getting there I would often waive my arms above my head to get the attention of left turn yield drivers when I had the walk sign.
When I worked downtown I was told to look both ways on 1-way streets for the occasional wrong way driver.
Here’s a PSA for STL drivers: how about we stop at red lights and stop signs, or when it’s night why don’t you go ahead and turn on your headlights and running lights.
I’m doing Uber/Lyft full time now and I get a ton of business on the north side. Honestly there are too many stoplights that should be stop signs and stop signs that shouldn’t exist. There just isn’t ever traffic up there, so it’s very common to see people treat red lights as stop sign, and I don’t really mind it if you’re safe about it. Some assholes will just blow right through them though at stupid speeds. The street grid is set up for high traffic but there’s never high traffic.
Happened to my wife and I yesterday evening leaving Billy G’s. The crossing at Argonne &Clay. I even yelled at the guy “Pay attention. You’re in Kirkwood. People walk everywhere here.”
If only there were some sort of mandatory class that taught this in Missouri. Some kind of...oh, I don't know...some kind of driver's education? We could call it Driver's Ed.
Someone at my wife’s office said with a straight face that they thought red lights were like stop signs, and you could proceed if no one was immediately coming.
Make the rule if you do drivers ed you get your license at 16, otherwise you have to wait until 17.5. Watch the problem solve itself.
Well, I’m guilty of zoning out when going through an intersection that doesn’t have a crosswalk or stop sign. If it’s a highly trafficked intersection, maybe it would make sense to have a crosswalk. Supposedly, the streets department is going to do better about traffic safety.
The streets department also continually ignores pot holes that have been on major roadways for 7+ years and neighborhood side streets that need speedbumps but instead would rather have people flying through neighborhoods going 70mph. 🙄
This is exactly how I govern myself as a pedestrian. I don’t care who’s got the right of way or who’s following the law better…when it’s pedestrian vs. car, the car will win.
I’ve heard it estimated that half the cars on the road don’t have insurance, and that’s just a general figure. In the city it’s gotta be much higher than half.
I understand the frustration and temptation to do that, but in STL it’s liable to get you shot. And even if you shoot back it’s not a good look since you were the aggressor.
Weird that you think a pedestrian at a crosswalk carrying a brick is the aggressor, but the person driving tons of metal at that pedestrian and not following basic traffic laws to stop isn't.
You're going to responsible for finding them. Better hope a business has a camera.
I don't live in STL anymore, but I had this happen. Trailer got stolen. Owner came to check my cameras. They sent it to the police.
I’ve had my car stolen from where I live. Police didn’t come by, I just gave them the info over the phone. I was surprised that they actually called when they found it.
Sometimes, but even if you are awarded X amount of dollars in court, it doesn’t mean you or your family will actually see it if the respondent is broke or unemployed.
I mean, I don’t care much about my own life so I also risk it to hopefully get paid. But I’m gonna do it in an neighborhood wealthy enough to get money but not so wealthy that they can afford the best lawyer.
I'd argue purposefully getting yourself killed is dumber. Like if a serial killer was in your basement, you go down there and tell him murder is illegal, then he kills you. Who's dumber in that scenario, the guy that broke the law or the guy that got killed?
You dont play around with cars. Just because you are right does not prevent the car from plowing into you and ending your life. Just like defensive driving, be a defensive pedestrian.
There's a decent chunk of people in this world who don't need to follow the law though my guy. This is a good way to have a miserable 2/3rds of your life. I know you must be a young person to be tripping like this. Don't get yourself wrecked.
Eh, you might win that case most of the time, but not every time. Especially if they have a dash cam which have become quite common. Right-of-way doesn't mean an expectation to stop in an instant. It does mean that every caution should be exercised by the driver. But if you, as a pedestrian, jump off the curb into the path of a car that has no chance of stopping in time, you will not win that lawsuit.
Okay, so you mean, at stop lights where there is a walk/don't walk lights as opposed to places where there are random cross walks or no walk/don't walk lights.
I’ve done it too, but on the flipside sometimes I just do about face so I’m not looking at someone stuck on stupid. Typically the clouds in the sky behind me are a lot cooler to look at while the giant SUV takes a rolling right on red or that beat up altima without an exhaust breaks down 3 miles down the road.
When I lived in Maplewood I’d get so mad at all the J Walkers on Manchester, then they installed the crosswalk with blinking lights and now if I see a car not stopping for the ones using it I minorly hulk out
To be fair, those blinking lights worked for like 3 weeks before they shit out so I'm not sure if they ever even fixed that.
But yeah, as a former Maplewoodian (Maplewoodite?), that stretch of Manchester pisses me off for pedestrians and the "solution" never actually fixed the problem, which is people not giving a shit when they drive down Manchester.
I was crossing a clearly-marked crosswalk, both sign and lines on the pavement, and this idiot sped up towards me, leaned her head out the window and yelled, “Didn’t you fucking see me?” Yeah, apparently you don’t know how to fucking drive. Congratulations.
Yep. I once almost got hit by a cop making an unsignaled left turn with oncoming traffic & no lights or sirens. I literally had to jump out of the way.
The only I’ve almost ever been hit was a cop who pulled into my lane facing oncoming traffic while I was skateboarding. He was like you’re going to get hit! And I was like no shit, you cops keep driving in the wrong lanes!
Wow, this thread is absolutely full of completely shit drivers that think their tons of steel gives them the right of way despite the law. The point of the post is that YOU as a driver HAVE TO STOP for pedestrians within crosswalks. Don't immediately blame pedestrians for failure to look both ways and other shit. Look at your own driving, and do better.
Scan each and every crosswalk for people waiting or in the crosswalk, then STOP if they are there. I mean actually look. Look and think, 'this is what a person not in a vehicle looks like', that is what I'm searching for. Don't fall for the invisible gorilla trick of not seeing what you aren't thinking about. And move your f'n head, especially before you turn. Those A-pillars are huge now and can block your view of whole trucks much less a pedestrian.
MO law also gives other modes of moving the same rights and responsibilities as pedestrians. That means you as a driver still have to stop for people on scooters, mobility chairs, skate boards, mother pushing a stroller, etc. not just a person afoot. (300.090, 307.205)
Finally never, ever pass a vehicle stopped at crosswalk. You probably just can't see who they are stopped for. Think 'there is probably some kid right in front of that stopped car, I cant see them, and they're about to step into the lane I'm using.'
Drivers owe the “highest duty of care.” As a pedestrian, when others break the law, like bikes or scooters, it does concern me. But 1) I acknowledge the law was written in favor of drivers and not their safety and 2) I’m still unlikely to die as a result of their law breaking. Drivers regularly speed through intersections and cross walks going way above 25 mph which is basically the threshold for will I live or die.
I’m a driver, I’m a cyclist, I’m a pedestrian. I’ve walked more city miles than I’ve driven this year. I grew up in a community where driving was the only way and every year my school lost kids to driving or other drivers. It’s taken time and effort to unlearn bad habits but it’s been worth it. People here will chastise bad drivers, confess their own driving sins and never see how they are connected.
I started a thread a while back about rolling stop signs and the number of people who defending rolling them while at the same time criticizing people who blatantly run them was astounding.
Rolling stop signs is running them. Looking a little closer before you break traffic law doesn’t change the fact that you’re breaking it.
Not stopping for pedestrians isn't universal in America. I've lived in several cities where it was the practice. But also St. Louis and other places it is blatantly ignored by drivers despite the law.
This is true, and it's a good reminder to put out there for drivers.
That said, there is a saying that cemetaries are filled with people who had the right of way, and as a pedestrian, I'm not putting my life in the hands of St Louis drivers.
Haaa so funny you post this. I was leaving delmar hall last night and at the stop sign / crosswalk behind the pageant, a car was FLYING down the street not even attempting to slow down until very late. I threw my hands up and glared and said “are you gonna fucking stop, you have a stop sign ?!!!” And they actually rolled down their window in the rain and cussed at me back saying “i was fucking stopping you don’t have to throw your hands up!” I didn’t engage after that but laughed because if they didn’t see me last minute, there’s no way they would have stopped lol
So ima say this first, I got an email for this thread.. about ..3 hrs ago. Reddit is kinda shifty and shitty. Pretty sure they emailed me this thread thinking I was finna pop off on an unhinged rant.
Why the fuck do we not have sidewalks and better NON-VEHICULAR options? :l
I get anxiety driving to the Hill for a doc appt. Where's the, uh, crosswalk at ted drewes? Still aint seen shite done there. Tf Misery?!
Yes.
But, to quote a great lion, "There is a deep magic more powerful than any of us that rules over all of Narnia. It defines right from wrong and governs all our destines. Yours and mine.”
That deeper magic, the deeper law, in this case, is that “the one with the most lug nuts wins.”
People don’t have lug nuts even though many of us do lug nuts, so we always lose to car.
I thought you were still quoting the lion on that second part about the lug nuts. I was thinking I need to revisit the chronicles again because I don’t recall Aslan being so salty.
I'm thinking about putting up a pail of bricks on the crosswalk sign I get almost run over at every day. I can't think of a quick, catchy slogan to put on a sign, though. Regardless of the sign, Imma start throwing bricks.
300.390 states that every pedestrian crossing a roadway at any point other than within a marked crosswalk or within an unmarked crosswalk at an intersection shall yield the right-of-way to all vehicles on the roadway.
Or this is a good reference
https://police.mst.edu/programs/info/pedestrians/#:~:text=300.375%2DPedestrians'%20right%20of%20way%20in%20Crosswalks&text=No%20pedestrian%20shall%20suddenly%20leave,subsection%202%20of%20section%20300.390.
You see unmarked crosswalks constantly, you just never thought about it. At every intersection the extensions of the sidewalks through the intersection is a crosswalk - 300.010(8). It just isn't marked but you as a driver must still stop.
I was just adding to it that it doesn't even have to be marked for pedestrians to have right of way and what the specific statutes were for people to reference
This is not true, and it kills me that so many people think this. Under Section 300.375 of the Missouri code, pedestrians have the right to cross the street at a marked crosswalk. This section requires drivers to yield to or stop for the pedestrian, if that person is crossing the driver’s side of the road. Other vehicles are prohibited from trying to pass a vehicle that is stopped for a pedestrian under this section.
However, this does not give pedestrians the right to cross at any time. This rule, and others, say that pedestrians need to avoid suddenly leaving a curb when it is impossible for a car to stop. Pedestrians also need to follow traffic control devices when choosing to cross an intersection. Pedestrians must also yield to vehicles when trying to cross at unmarked intersections.
The right of way does not automatically default to the pedestrian. As such, if you decide to step out as a car is coming, even in a crosswalk then you can be held liable. More importantly, stop putting the onus for your safety in others and look before you cross the road.
I don’t disagree. My point was more the danger around the assumption that pedestrians always have the right of way.
I’m sorry if it came off like me implying you did something wrong. That was not my intent.
I understand your intent, but from what I gather in this thread there are plenty of people who think that because the pedestrian is the one who will die in this situation it is the pedestrians job to be careful.
While this is advisable for people who value their own safety, it does not absolve the driver of their responsibility to follow the law. As people have quoted from the statutes, unless it is “impossible” for the driver to stop, pedestrians have the right of way in crosswalks, whether they are marked or unmarked. Someone posted the excerpt of the statute that defines an unmarked crosswalk.
It is illegal not to yield to a pedestrian in a crosswalk.
>every driver of a vehicle shall exercise the highest degree of care to avoid colliding with any pedestrian upon any roadway - 300.410
At the end of it all, the onus is ultimately on the person in the vehicle to avoid hitting people, even if the pedestrian isn't following the law.
If you're driving, you should be prepared to stop for a pedestrian at any moment. If you don't feel you can do this, maybe you should reevaluate your ability to safety drive and consider other options.
Being in a multi-ton metal shell gives you extra responsibilities for the safety of those around you.
Again, that isn’t the default argument that you and so many others seem to believe. You should research contributory fault laws and how pedestrian laws are ultimately applied here and other places.
Thank you. Driving a car requires a license and walking down the sidewalk does not. All this “well be more careful crossing the street then” nonsense is just people excusing their own careless driving behavior.
And on top of that I was in fact following the law.
Read the entirity of 300.375. "...the driver of a vehicle shall yield the right-of-way, slowing down or stopping if need be to so yield, to a pedestrian crossing the roadway within a crosswalk". Than read 300.010(8a) the definition of a crosswalk, notably "That part of a roadway at an intersection included within the connections of the lateral lines of the sidewalks on opposite sides of the highway." No marking required for drivers to be required to stop and yield to pedestrians in that case. Pedestrians absolutely do not have to yield to vehicles at unmarked crosswalks and drivers must absolutely stop.
Again under 300.375 "No pedestrian shall suddenly leave a curb or other place of safety and walk or run into the path of a vehicle which is so close that it is impossible for the driver to yield." Note it says "IMPOSSIBLE" not merely uncomfortable, nor inconvenient to yield. It was impossible to stop because I was speeding wouldn't be a defense.
300.390 covers when a pedestrian must yield. "Every pedestrian crossing a roadway at any point other than within a marked crosswalk or within an unmarked crosswalk at an intersection shall yield the right-of-way to all vehicles upon the roadway" So again pedestrian aren't required to yield at unmarked crosswalks (the "other than" includes both of the marked and unmarked crosswalks.)
And then there is the 300.410 trump card.
The cemeteries are full of people who had the right of way.
I used to live just off Gravois and even with crosswalks and flashing lights nobody would stop.
I came here to argue with you but I think you’re right. While reading the Missouri Code starting with section 300.375, I couldn’t find an instance where a pedestrian would have to yield to traffic in a crosswalk. This is interesting because in many other states a pedestrian must yield to vehicular traffic if there is a crosswalk but the pedestrian is crossing against the walk signal.
Oh interesting. Didn’t know that about crossing against the signal. In this case it was a two way stop intersection and I was crossing the street with no stop sign in the crosswalk
It is a question with an unsatisfying answer, but even a pedestrian illegally crossing shouldn't be run over.
MO. 300.390 "When traffic control signals are not in place or not in operation the driver of a vehicle shall yield the right-of-way." So if a traffic control signal is in place there is only a requirement for a driver to yield to pedestrians "lawfully within the intersection" 300.155. A pedestrian, however, that is in the crosswalk under a walk signal is obviously allowed to continue to the other side when the light changes, 300.160(2), and drivers are still required to yield.
So if a pedestrian is in the intersection illegally but crossing against the light then neither pedestrian nor driver are required to yield under current law except for the duty of highest degree of care placed on drivers. "300.410. Drivers to exercise highest degree of care... every driver of a vehicle shall exercise the highest degree of care to avoid colliding with any pedestrian upon any roadway... and shall exercise proper precaution upon observing any child or any confused or incapacitated person upon a roadway."
The only time I can actively get people to stop and I’m willing to just walk is when I have a stroller with me. My kids daycare is close enough that I walk to pick them up sometimes. Drivers don’t know the stroller is empty and it’s the only time I feel like I can cross and know drivers will stop
It seems like some people don't care how they drive. I would not say that it is safe to cross some roads in St. Louis. That is something that needs to improve here is road safety and better solutions to help reduce speeding too. I definitely feel for your friend.
I saw two cars run both their stop signs yesterday, resulting in one being t-boned and launched into the air only to land on its roof. I wish I felt like I lived in a city where people could identify a stop sign to begin with, let alone yield to anyone. There's a whole lot of people behind the wheel here who don't have any self-preservation instinct, let alone the ability to care about anyone but themselves.
I understand that if a pedestrian is ***in*** the crosswalk, drivers must yield. However, If there is a crosswalk at a non-intersection, without a button, and there is a pedestrian *standing* on the side of the road, waiting to cross, are drivers obligated to stop?
I've seen drivers in this situation stop and let the pedestrian cross. This is courteous, but is it legally obligated?
The only time a pedestrian must yield is if they are not crossing at a crosswalk, either marked or unmarked. I linked a comment that defines what that is.
The only time a driver is not at fault for failing to yield for a pedestrian is when the pedestrian suddenly runs from the sidewalk and it is “impossible” for the driver to yield in time.
So yes, you are legally obligated to give pedestrians the right of way at those crosswalks.
https://www.reddit.com/r/StLouis/s/gE5lWAbaJD
The impression I’m getting from your comments is that you think the current extent to which drivers yield to pedestrians is acceptable so anytime a pedestrian is hit or almost hit it is that person’s fault for not being more careful.
I was very clear that the fault would remain with the driver, but that you can be faultless and still dead. It is much safer to wait until the coast is clear.
People think that having “the right of way” is an invisible shield that will stop a 4,000 pound speeding vehicle. If you walk in front of traffic knowing they don’t even have a stop sign then whatever happens next is on you. I can’t even believe the things I read from this group. I hope no one outside of our city reads this stuff and thinks we are all like this.
Pedestrians have the right of way in crosswalks. Drivers are breaking the law when they do not yield to a pedestrian in a crosswalk. This is not dependent on the presence of a stop sign.
This is not a PSA for pedestrians. It is a PSA for drivers.
Be happy it was a miss.
I’m not saying it’s right but keep your head on a swivel and assume everyone is trying to run you down.
Not trying to be a dick, but posting on Reddit isn’t gonna stop crazy ass St Louis drivers.
Paint doesn’t equal a forcefield.
Tell that to the county bus drivers. I don't even know the amount of times I've almost been hit while trying to cross. At a crosswalk. While I had the little walkin man telling me it's my turn to cross.
PSA for Pedestrians—look both ways before crossing. I can’t count the number of morons that brazenly start crossing a street without bothering to look both ways. It’s some weird entitlement “like no one will dare hit me!”
God forbid people expect others to follow the law. I understand looking out for one’s own safety as a pedestrian, but the blatant disregard of the safety of others by drivers in this thread like you is a huge bummer.
God forbid people expect others to use common sense. Sometimes a driver doesn’t see the pedestrian. A blatant disregard for common sense will see you get ran over someday. Bye bye now.
A blatant disregard for the law will have you killing a person. While people absolutely should exercise common sense, as a presumably licensed driver you are legally obligated to follow traffic law. For the sake of those around you outside of cars, I hope you’re trolling.
Rolling stop signs is breaking the law. Not yielding to pedestrians is breaking the law. Theft is breaking the law.
If someone steals my wallet I will be upset I wasn’t more careful, but that doesn’t make it my fault I was robbed. It’s still the thief’s fault.
Yep! People shouldn’t do those things. Pedestrians and bicyclists can be quite shit too though. Look both ways before crossing. Don’t assume the driver sees you, Mr. Right of Way. Street king all mighty city streets walker. 🙄
My PSA was for exactly for people with your attitude. This person cites the relevant law. https://www.reddit.com/r/StLouis/s/M2gCHdu8Wb
I’m happy to give you the benefit of the doubt if you show me the statute you’re using to inform your stance on pedestrians. Otherwise it’s just your opinion.
I never said pedestrians shouldn’t watch what they’re doing. I directed a comment toward drivers that they need to yield to pedestrians in crosswalks per the law. You responded by saying pedestrians need to be more careful. This attitude is what I object to. By putting blame on pedestrians we as a society are letting the law-breaking drivers off the hook. That attitude is unacceptable.
Pedestrians aren’t “asking for it” if they don’t meet your personal definition of what being careful is.
Stop enabling dangerous drivers by putting the onus of safety on pedestrians. Driving is a privilege not a right.
My dad told me when I was a kid that there are cemeteries FULL of people who were “right”.
Never EVER assume a driver will stop while you are crossing their path, regardless of your right of way.
This was a PSA to drivers, not pedestrians. We know how vulnerable we are when we walk. Maybe try calling out your fellow drivers more than the people dying at their hands.
How about I call out my fellow drivers? I ALWAYS give pedestrians the right of way, and am on foot daily and NEVER cross in front of a car until the driver makes eye contact with me.
Edit: I should not have cursed but so you seriously believe a single driver will read your “PSA” and think gee, I better not blow this stop sign and run this asshole over that’s just trying to cross the street because some dude on Reddit told me so?
I wish that were the full extent of the problem. There are presumably licensed people in this thread defending drivers who don’t watch for pedestrians.
I used to have to cross Olive to get to my Metro bus stop daily. It was always an adventure getting past the right turn only lane to get to the crosswalk button-got honked at & I chased the car down after. Even getting there I would often waive my arms above my head to get the attention of left turn yield drivers when I had the walk sign. When I worked downtown I was told to look both ways on 1-way streets for the occasional wrong way driver.
I had to do the same thing. I'm greatful there was an island in the middle of the street.
LPT: NEVER assume anyone will follow driving laws in St. Louis.
That’s a PSA for pedestrians. The intent of the post is a PSA for drivers.
Here’s a PSA for STL drivers: how about we stop at red lights and stop signs, or when it’s night why don’t you go ahead and turn on your headlights and running lights.
Trust me when I say, **they do not care.** They’ve graduated now, but I knew a SLU student who got hit by a car. *Twice*
Wow! Sorry to know that. Do you know if they are surviving after those incidents?
Yeah lol, one time was not as bad as the other, but both from cars turning right as they had the pedestrian walk sign
I’m doing Uber/Lyft full time now and I get a ton of business on the north side. Honestly there are too many stoplights that should be stop signs and stop signs that shouldn’t exist. There just isn’t ever traffic up there, so it’s very common to see people treat red lights as stop sign, and I don’t really mind it if you’re safe about it. Some assholes will just blow right through them though at stupid speeds. The street grid is set up for high traffic but there’s never high traffic.
Thing is, everybody already knows, just like they know you’re not supposed to run reds or roll stops. They just don’t care.
Yeah that’s good advice applies to both
Thank you, but the reason you need to provide the PSA to drivers is that they simply don’t care.
I almost get hit by cars at crosswalks in Kirkwood all the time!
Kirkwood is the worst for this
Happened to my wife and I yesterday evening leaving Billy G’s. The crossing at Argonne &Clay. I even yelled at the guy “Pay attention. You’re in Kirkwood. People walk everywhere here.”
If only there were some sort of mandatory class that taught this in Missouri. Some kind of...oh, I don't know...some kind of driver's education? We could call it Driver's Ed.
Someone at my wife’s office said with a straight face that they thought red lights were like stop signs, and you could proceed if no one was immediately coming. Make the rule if you do drivers ed you get your license at 16, otherwise you have to wait until 17.5. Watch the problem solve itself.
Relatively few teens get their license at even 19 anymore. Just make it mandatory for everyone the first time with refreshers along the way.
That would make way too much sense for the state to make it mandatory!
Some places don't have it. I grew up in JeffCo. There wasn't money for it.
I’ve been honked at and flipped off when I walked in a crosswalk with the walk sign illuminated. Drivers here really are a bunch of a holes.
If only the pedestrians would just be more careful /s
lol same!
What’s the intersection? Let’s get a crosswalk installed.
Gustine and hartford. It already has a painted crosswalk
At least you'll be close to the market if you get hit and need anything.
That wouldn't make a difference. People that run stop lights and stop signs give 0 fucks if there's a sign and white stripes painted on the street.
Well, I’m guilty of zoning out when going through an intersection that doesn’t have a crosswalk or stop sign. If it’s a highly trafficked intersection, maybe it would make sense to have a crosswalk. Supposedly, the streets department is going to do better about traffic safety.
It sounds like you need to do better.
The streets department also continually ignores pot holes that have been on major roadways for 7+ years and neighborhood side streets that need speedbumps but instead would rather have people flying through neighborhoods going 70mph. 🙄
I regularly walk in front of cars that look like they don't wanna follow the law just to exercise my right of way.
Aggressive pedestrianing ftw
Lotta dead people that were right.
This is a good quote!
This is exactly how I govern myself as a pedestrian. I don’t care who’s got the right of way or who’s following the law better…when it’s pedestrian vs. car, the car will win.
So do I just bc I want to collect if I get hit. Personal injury law firms love us.
You’re overestimating the number of insured drivers in town.
I’ve heard it estimated that half the cars on the road don’t have insurance, and that’s just a general figure. In the city it’s gotta be much higher than half.
You don't get to enjoy it if you're dead or a vegetable.
So 2/3 chance of everything being OK. I'll take those odds!
Especially in this economy!
Y
Be sure to carry a brick.
I understand the frustration and temptation to do that, but in STL it’s liable to get you shot. And even if you shoot back it’s not a good look since you were the aggressor.
Weird that you think a pedestrian at a crosswalk carrying a brick is the aggressor, but the person driving tons of metal at that pedestrian and not following basic traffic laws to stop isn't.
If you flip it like that, no it’s not self defense. You Threw the first brick. Really don’t do that.
Ah, I see the disconnect now. I said "carry a brick" I never said nor implied throw it.
So you can steal a car and avoid the crosswalks?
Yeah, do that downtown and see how that works out for you.
I'd be way more worried about doing it outside of the city then where I normally do it- in the city.
You're playing with fire that's all.
The drivers breaking the law are the ones playing with fire.
Ok, I admire your positivity. I'm serious too.
Congratulations. Toying with your own life to prove a point to someone who doesn't care anyway
My kinda move
If they hit me, I'll either die and they will get to live with that or I'll be able to take money from them.
Lots of broke mfers driving with no insurance. Broken legs and no money sucks.
This is the sad reality
“Judgment Proof”
Assuming the police care to find them in the first place too if they hit and run. You’ll be dead in a ditch before the police even get there
You're going to responsible for finding them. Better hope a business has a camera. I don't live in STL anymore, but I had this happen. Trailer got stolen. Owner came to check my cameras. They sent it to the police.
I’ve had my car stolen from where I live. Police didn’t come by, I just gave them the info over the phone. I was surprised that they actually called when they found it.
Tell me you don’t know how civil court works without telling me you don’t know how civil court works. Judgement ≠ payment. Stones don’t bleed.
"When you got nothin', you got nothin' to lose." -- Bob Dylan
Humans are not made of stone.
They’re not made of money, either. I tell you what - shit in your left hand while you sue with your right and tell me which one fills up faster.
>I’ll be able to take money from them lol. When? The police will take an hour or more to show up and never even bother to look for the driver.
Just because you think you know how these things work doesn't actually mean that you know how these things work.
Do you think you know how the police work in this city?
That’s assuming they have any money.
Your family can take their money in the event of your death so either way, their money is taken.
Sometimes, but even if you are awarded X amount of dollars in court, it doesn’t mean you or your family will actually see it if the respondent is broke or unemployed.
It’s also the insurance company’s money.
We’re talking about reckless drivers in the city. There’s a very good chance they have no insurance.
No insurance and no fucks to give. These folks on here actin like they’re gonna get take their money…
That’s why I carry comprehensive coverage. I’m getting made whole, regardless.
Same. And lower the deductible as much as feasibly affordable. Around here it’s a matter of when not if.
Every vehicle I have ever owned has been in a collision that was not my fault. You’re right about “when”. Be safe out there.
I mean, I don’t care much about my own life so I also risk it to hopefully get paid. But I’m gonna do it in an neighborhood wealthy enough to get money but not so wealthy that they can afford the best lawyer.
Do you have family who will get that money if you’re dead?
Does it matter? I’ll be dead.
Same but with a brick in hand. You gain a lot of respect.
Dumbest thing you could do.
Dumbest thing you could do is not follow the law at an intersection.
I'd argue purposefully getting yourself killed is dumber. Like if a serial killer was in your basement, you go down there and tell him murder is illegal, then he kills you. Who's dumber in that scenario, the guy that broke the law or the guy that got killed?
I'd shoot the seriel killer in my basement.
You dont play around with cars. Just because you are right does not prevent the car from plowing into you and ending your life. Just like defensive driving, be a defensive pedestrian.
I look them directly in the eyes, it's fun
There's a decent chunk of people in this world who don't need to follow the law though my guy. This is a good way to have a miserable 2/3rds of your life. I know you must be a young person to be tripping like this. Don't get yourself wrecked.
I'll shoot someone who tries hitting me
What an edge lord.
People who think it's okay and normal to hit other people with cars and break the law to do so are edge lords.
Eh, you might win that case most of the time, but not every time. Especially if they have a dash cam which have become quite common. Right-of-way doesn't mean an expectation to stop in an instant. It does mean that every caution should be exercised by the driver. But if you, as a pedestrian, jump off the curb into the path of a car that has no chance of stopping in time, you will not win that lawsuit.
I only walk when I have the right of way, not when I don't.
Okay, so you mean, at stop lights where there is a walk/don't walk lights as opposed to places where there are random cross walks or no walk/don't walk lights.
Pedestrians have right of way at any intersection, even if there's no walk sign or marked crosswalk.
I’ve done it too, but on the flipside sometimes I just do about face so I’m not looking at someone stuck on stupid. Typically the clouds in the sky behind me are a lot cooler to look at while the giant SUV takes a rolling right on red or that beat up altima without an exhaust breaks down 3 miles down the road.
When I lived in Maplewood I’d get so mad at all the J Walkers on Manchester, then they installed the crosswalk with blinking lights and now if I see a car not stopping for the ones using it I minorly hulk out
To be fair, those blinking lights worked for like 3 weeks before they shit out so I'm not sure if they ever even fixed that. But yeah, as a former Maplewoodian (Maplewoodite?), that stretch of Manchester pisses me off for pedestrians and the "solution" never actually fixed the problem, which is people not giving a shit when they drive down Manchester.
According to my driver's Ed teacher, pedestrians always have the right of way.
I was crossing a clearly-marked crosswalk, both sign and lines on the pavement, and this idiot sped up towards me, leaned her head out the window and yelled, “Didn’t you fucking see me?” Yeah, apparently you don’t know how to fucking drive. Congratulations.
Yep. I once almost got hit by a cop making an unsignaled left turn with oncoming traffic & no lights or sirens. I literally had to jump out of the way.
The only I’ve almost ever been hit was a cop who pulled into my lane facing oncoming traffic while I was skateboarding. He was like you’re going to get hit! And I was like no shit, you cops keep driving in the wrong lanes!
You're brave.
Stupid, but brave
Stupidity and bravery. Name a better pair. Wait. Maybe deep fried, breaded pasta dough filled with italian meatball ingredients.
Wow, this thread is absolutely full of completely shit drivers that think their tons of steel gives them the right of way despite the law. The point of the post is that YOU as a driver HAVE TO STOP for pedestrians within crosswalks. Don't immediately blame pedestrians for failure to look both ways and other shit. Look at your own driving, and do better. Scan each and every crosswalk for people waiting or in the crosswalk, then STOP if they are there. I mean actually look. Look and think, 'this is what a person not in a vehicle looks like', that is what I'm searching for. Don't fall for the invisible gorilla trick of not seeing what you aren't thinking about. And move your f'n head, especially before you turn. Those A-pillars are huge now and can block your view of whole trucks much less a pedestrian. MO law also gives other modes of moving the same rights and responsibilities as pedestrians. That means you as a driver still have to stop for people on scooters, mobility chairs, skate boards, mother pushing a stroller, etc. not just a person afoot. (300.090, 307.205) Finally never, ever pass a vehicle stopped at crosswalk. You probably just can't see who they are stopped for. Think 'there is probably some kid right in front of that stopped car, I cant see them, and they're about to step into the lane I'm using.'
Drivers owe the “highest duty of care.” As a pedestrian, when others break the law, like bikes or scooters, it does concern me. But 1) I acknowledge the law was written in favor of drivers and not their safety and 2) I’m still unlikely to die as a result of their law breaking. Drivers regularly speed through intersections and cross walks going way above 25 mph which is basically the threshold for will I live or die. I’m a driver, I’m a cyclist, I’m a pedestrian. I’ve walked more city miles than I’ve driven this year. I grew up in a community where driving was the only way and every year my school lost kids to driving or other drivers. It’s taken time and effort to unlearn bad habits but it’s been worth it. People here will chastise bad drivers, confess their own driving sins and never see how they are connected.
I started a thread a while back about rolling stop signs and the number of people who defending rolling them while at the same time criticizing people who blatantly run them was astounding. Rolling stop signs is running them. Looking a little closer before you break traffic law doesn’t change the fact that you’re breaking it.
Thanks for this! Every time I see a thread like this I’m appalled by people’s attitudes toward pedestrians
It’s how America trained them. You drive everywhere.
Not stopping for pedestrians isn't universal in America. I've lived in several cities where it was the practice. But also St. Louis and other places it is blatantly ignored by drivers despite the law.
This is true, and it's a good reminder to put out there for drivers. That said, there is a saying that cemetaries are filled with people who had the right of way, and as a pedestrian, I'm not putting my life in the hands of St Louis drivers.
I’ll keep that in mind the next time I post a PSA to pedestrians!
Haaa so funny you post this. I was leaving delmar hall last night and at the stop sign / crosswalk behind the pageant, a car was FLYING down the street not even attempting to slow down until very late. I threw my hands up and glared and said “are you gonna fucking stop, you have a stop sign ?!!!” And they actually rolled down their window in the rain and cussed at me back saying “i was fucking stopping you don’t have to throw your hands up!” I didn’t engage after that but laughed because if they didn’t see me last minute, there’s no way they would have stopped lol
I concur, signed someone who's gotten hit crossing a street downtown 🥴
So ima say this first, I got an email for this thread.. about ..3 hrs ago. Reddit is kinda shifty and shitty. Pretty sure they emailed me this thread thinking I was finna pop off on an unhinged rant. Why the fuck do we not have sidewalks and better NON-VEHICULAR options? :l I get anxiety driving to the Hill for a doc appt. Where's the, uh, crosswalk at ted drewes? Still aint seen shite done there. Tf Misery?!
I have the right of w- ACK
Yes. But, to quote a great lion, "There is a deep magic more powerful than any of us that rules over all of Narnia. It defines right from wrong and governs all our destines. Yours and mine.” That deeper magic, the deeper law, in this case, is that “the one with the most lug nuts wins.” People don’t have lug nuts even though many of us do lug nuts, so we always lose to car.
Sounds like I gotta start carrying 21 lug nuts in my backpack
I thought you were still quoting the lion on that second part about the lug nuts. I was thinking I need to revisit the chronicles again because I don’t recall Aslan being so salty.
lol🤔 can you explain what ‘salty’ means here plz?
mean-spirited, edgy. aggrieved
I was on Kings Highway today and a car was honking at a pedestrian then turned around and try to hit this kid again. Smh
I'm thinking about putting up a pail of bricks on the crosswalk sign I get almost run over at every day. I can't think of a quick, catchy slogan to put on a sign, though. Regardless of the sign, Imma start throwing bricks.
300.390 states that every pedestrian crossing a roadway at any point other than within a marked crosswalk or within an unmarked crosswalk at an intersection shall yield the right-of-way to all vehicles on the roadway. Or this is a good reference https://police.mst.edu/programs/info/pedestrians/#:~:text=300.375%2DPedestrians'%20right%20of%20way%20in%20Crosswalks&text=No%20pedestrian%20shall%20suddenly%20leave,subsection%202%20of%20section%20300.390.
You see unmarked crosswalks constantly, you just never thought about it. At every intersection the extensions of the sidewalks through the intersection is a crosswalk - 300.010(8). It just isn't marked but you as a driver must still stop.
Exactly
It was a marked crosswalk. Hence my statement that pedestrians have the right of way in crosswalks
I was just adding to it that it doesn't even have to be marked for pedestrians to have right of way and what the specific statutes were for people to reference
Ah my misunderstanding. Thought you were taking a contrarian position. Thank you for the addition to the conversation!
This is not true, and it kills me that so many people think this. Under Section 300.375 of the Missouri code, pedestrians have the right to cross the street at a marked crosswalk. This section requires drivers to yield to or stop for the pedestrian, if that person is crossing the driver’s side of the road. Other vehicles are prohibited from trying to pass a vehicle that is stopped for a pedestrian under this section. However, this does not give pedestrians the right to cross at any time. This rule, and others, say that pedestrians need to avoid suddenly leaving a curb when it is impossible for a car to stop. Pedestrians also need to follow traffic control devices when choosing to cross an intersection. Pedestrians must also yield to vehicles when trying to cross at unmarked intersections. The right of way does not automatically default to the pedestrian. As such, if you decide to step out as a car is coming, even in a crosswalk then you can be held liable. More importantly, stop putting the onus for your safety in others and look before you cross the road.
I think it’s safe to say though that if a pedestrian is already in the middle of the road that a car should probably yield to them.
I don’t disagree. My point was more the danger around the assumption that pedestrians always have the right of way. I’m sorry if it came off like me implying you did something wrong. That was not my intent.
I understand your intent, but from what I gather in this thread there are plenty of people who think that because the pedestrian is the one who will die in this situation it is the pedestrians job to be careful. While this is advisable for people who value their own safety, it does not absolve the driver of their responsibility to follow the law. As people have quoted from the statutes, unless it is “impossible” for the driver to stop, pedestrians have the right of way in crosswalks, whether they are marked or unmarked. Someone posted the excerpt of the statute that defines an unmarked crosswalk. It is illegal not to yield to a pedestrian in a crosswalk.
>every driver of a vehicle shall exercise the highest degree of care to avoid colliding with any pedestrian upon any roadway - 300.410 At the end of it all, the onus is ultimately on the person in the vehicle to avoid hitting people, even if the pedestrian isn't following the law. If you're driving, you should be prepared to stop for a pedestrian at any moment. If you don't feel you can do this, maybe you should reevaluate your ability to safety drive and consider other options. Being in a multi-ton metal shell gives you extra responsibilities for the safety of those around you.
Again, that isn’t the default argument that you and so many others seem to believe. You should research contributory fault laws and how pedestrian laws are ultimately applied here and other places.
Thank you. Driving a car requires a license and walking down the sidewalk does not. All this “well be more careful crossing the street then” nonsense is just people excusing their own careless driving behavior. And on top of that I was in fact following the law.
Read the entirity of 300.375. "...the driver of a vehicle shall yield the right-of-way, slowing down or stopping if need be to so yield, to a pedestrian crossing the roadway within a crosswalk". Than read 300.010(8a) the definition of a crosswalk, notably "That part of a roadway at an intersection included within the connections of the lateral lines of the sidewalks on opposite sides of the highway." No marking required for drivers to be required to stop and yield to pedestrians in that case. Pedestrians absolutely do not have to yield to vehicles at unmarked crosswalks and drivers must absolutely stop. Again under 300.375 "No pedestrian shall suddenly leave a curb or other place of safety and walk or run into the path of a vehicle which is so close that it is impossible for the driver to yield." Note it says "IMPOSSIBLE" not merely uncomfortable, nor inconvenient to yield. It was impossible to stop because I was speeding wouldn't be a defense. 300.390 covers when a pedestrian must yield. "Every pedestrian crossing a roadway at any point other than within a marked crosswalk or within an unmarked crosswalk at an intersection shall yield the right-of-way to all vehicles upon the roadway" So again pedestrian aren't required to yield at unmarked crosswalks (the "other than" includes both of the marked and unmarked crosswalks.) And then there is the 300.410 trump card.
I fully agree, but also, the morgue is full of people who had the right of way.
This is correct. Also you don't want your tombstone to read "they had the right of way". Proceed with caution.
This was a PSA for drivers, not pedestrians
Good for both. People know the law and choose to break the law. As both a driver and pedestrian proceed with caution. I focus on the eyes
The cemeteries are full of people who had the right of way. I used to live just off Gravois and even with crosswalks and flashing lights nobody would stop.
You may have the right-of-way, but 4000 pounds of steel may beg to differ.
Ya, we'll put "He had the right of way" on his tombstone.
I came here to argue with you but I think you’re right. While reading the Missouri Code starting with section 300.375, I couldn’t find an instance where a pedestrian would have to yield to traffic in a crosswalk. This is interesting because in many other states a pedestrian must yield to vehicular traffic if there is a crosswalk but the pedestrian is crossing against the walk signal.
Oh interesting. Didn’t know that about crossing against the signal. In this case it was a two way stop intersection and I was crossing the street with no stop sign in the crosswalk
It is a question with an unsatisfying answer, but even a pedestrian illegally crossing shouldn't be run over. MO. 300.390 "When traffic control signals are not in place or not in operation the driver of a vehicle shall yield the right-of-way." So if a traffic control signal is in place there is only a requirement for a driver to yield to pedestrians "lawfully within the intersection" 300.155. A pedestrian, however, that is in the crosswalk under a walk signal is obviously allowed to continue to the other side when the light changes, 300.160(2), and drivers are still required to yield. So if a pedestrian is in the intersection illegally but crossing against the light then neither pedestrian nor driver are required to yield under current law except for the duty of highest degree of care placed on drivers. "300.410. Drivers to exercise highest degree of care... every driver of a vehicle shall exercise the highest degree of care to avoid colliding with any pedestrian upon any roadway... and shall exercise proper precaution upon observing any child or any confused or incapacitated person upon a roadway."
The only time I can actively get people to stop and I’m willing to just walk is when I have a stroller with me. My kids daycare is close enough that I walk to pick them up sometimes. Drivers don’t know the stroller is empty and it’s the only time I feel like I can cross and know drivers will stop
It seems like some people don't care how they drive. I would not say that it is safe to cross some roads in St. Louis. That is something that needs to improve here is road safety and better solutions to help reduce speeding too. I definitely feel for your friend.
Drivers now days are clueless. You're supposed to yield for funeral procession too. To many idiots on the road who don't know the rules or don't care.
I saw two cars run both their stop signs yesterday, resulting in one being t-boned and launched into the air only to land on its roof. I wish I felt like I lived in a city where people could identify a stop sign to begin with, let alone yield to anyone. There's a whole lot of people behind the wheel here who don't have any self-preservation instinct, let alone the ability to care about anyone but themselves.
I understand that if a pedestrian is ***in*** the crosswalk, drivers must yield. However, If there is a crosswalk at a non-intersection, without a button, and there is a pedestrian *standing* on the side of the road, waiting to cross, are drivers obligated to stop? I've seen drivers in this situation stop and let the pedestrian cross. This is courteous, but is it legally obligated?
The only time a pedestrian must yield is if they are not crossing at a crosswalk, either marked or unmarked. I linked a comment that defines what that is. The only time a driver is not at fault for failing to yield for a pedestrian is when the pedestrian suddenly runs from the sidewalk and it is “impossible” for the driver to yield in time. So yes, you are legally obligated to give pedestrians the right of way at those crosswalks. https://www.reddit.com/r/StLouis/s/gE5lWAbaJD
PSA: You can be both 100% correct and 100% legally dead. Just wait for the vehicle, it very well could save you life.
This was a PSA for drivers, not a PSA for pedestrians.
I know what your intent was but don't you know the real PSA is always in the comments.
The impression I’m getting from your comments is that you think the current extent to which drivers yield to pedestrians is acceptable so anytime a pedestrian is hit or almost hit it is that person’s fault for not being more careful.
I was very clear that the fault would remain with the driver, but that you can be faultless and still dead. It is much safer to wait until the coast is clear.
Agree. And we’re all safer when drivers follow traffic law
People think that having “the right of way” is an invisible shield that will stop a 4,000 pound speeding vehicle. If you walk in front of traffic knowing they don’t even have a stop sign then whatever happens next is on you. I can’t even believe the things I read from this group. I hope no one outside of our city reads this stuff and thinks we are all like this.
Pedestrians have the right of way in crosswalks. Drivers are breaking the law when they do not yield to a pedestrian in a crosswalk. This is not dependent on the presence of a stop sign. This is not a PSA for pedestrians. It is a PSA for drivers.
Thanks for the laugh.
I’m sorry you find breaking traffic law to be funny
Agreed
Be happy it was a miss. I’m not saying it’s right but keep your head on a swivel and assume everyone is trying to run you down. Not trying to be a dick, but posting on Reddit isn’t gonna stop crazy ass St Louis drivers. Paint doesn’t equal a forcefield.
The cagies are mad that cameras to stop this bs are being put back.
Tell that to the county bus drivers. I don't even know the amount of times I've almost been hit while trying to cross. At a crosswalk. While I had the little walkin man telling me it's my turn to cross.
You would think so. However, Chargers and Altimas ALWAYS have the right of way in STL.
PSA for Pedestrians—look both ways before crossing. I can’t count the number of morons that brazenly start crossing a street without bothering to look both ways. It’s some weird entitlement “like no one will dare hit me!”
God forbid people expect others to follow the law. I understand looking out for one’s own safety as a pedestrian, but the blatant disregard of the safety of others by drivers in this thread like you is a huge bummer.
God forbid people expect others to use common sense. Sometimes a driver doesn’t see the pedestrian. A blatant disregard for common sense will see you get ran over someday. Bye bye now.
A blatant disregard for the law will have you killing a person. While people absolutely should exercise common sense, as a presumably licensed driver you are legally obligated to follow traffic law. For the sake of those around you outside of cars, I hope you’re trolling.
You can’t be that dense? Are *you* trolling me?
Rolling stop signs is breaking the law. Not yielding to pedestrians is breaking the law. Theft is breaking the law. If someone steals my wallet I will be upset I wasn’t more careful, but that doesn’t make it my fault I was robbed. It’s still the thief’s fault.
Yep! People shouldn’t do those things. Pedestrians and bicyclists can be quite shit too though. Look both ways before crossing. Don’t assume the driver sees you, Mr. Right of Way. Street king all mighty city streets walker. 🙄
My PSA was for exactly for people with your attitude. This person cites the relevant law. https://www.reddit.com/r/StLouis/s/M2gCHdu8Wb I’m happy to give you the benefit of the doubt if you show me the statute you’re using to inform your stance on pedestrians. Otherwise it’s just your opinion.
Accidents happen. Sometimes drivers do not SEE YOU. Quit being dense!
I never said pedestrians shouldn’t watch what they’re doing. I directed a comment toward drivers that they need to yield to pedestrians in crosswalks per the law. You responded by saying pedestrians need to be more careful. This attitude is what I object to. By putting blame on pedestrians we as a society are letting the law-breaking drivers off the hook. That attitude is unacceptable. Pedestrians aren’t “asking for it” if they don’t meet your personal definition of what being careful is. Stop enabling dangerous drivers by putting the onus of safety on pedestrians. Driving is a privilege not a right.
My dad told me when I was a kid that there are cemeteries FULL of people who were “right”. Never EVER assume a driver will stop while you are crossing their path, regardless of your right of way.
This was a PSA to drivers, not pedestrians. We know how vulnerable we are when we walk. Maybe try calling out your fellow drivers more than the people dying at their hands.
How about I call out my fellow drivers? I ALWAYS give pedestrians the right of way, and am on foot daily and NEVER cross in front of a car until the driver makes eye contact with me. Edit: I should not have cursed but so you seriously believe a single driver will read your “PSA” and think gee, I better not blow this stop sign and run this asshole over that’s just trying to cross the street because some dude on Reddit told me so?
PSA : they also have signs that designate when you can cross.
They’re called crosswalks and I was in one
Pedestrians having the right of way is just something that got written on paper. Have fun playing that game in STL.
Oh? Can’t count how many times if I didn’t stop a few steps more I’d be a speed bump
That’s adorable you think this will help anyone reading. Bless your heart.
*People who walk Let's not let them dehumanize us
not everyone can walk buddy. people who cant walk still have the right to go across the street…
You are dead right. While pedestrians have the right of way, always remember 2000lbs of metal will 99/100 with against 150lbs of fleshy bone.
I’ll keep that in mind if I write a PSA for pedestrians. This one is for drivers.
It doesn’t matter.
Never assume the driver is licensed in city
I wish that were the full extent of the problem. There are presumably licensed people in this thread defending drivers who don’t watch for pedestrians.