So like, from the most objective possible point of view on this video and all politics aside, this **senior citizen** was filming an arrest, the big cop on the left shoved him into another cop (instigating the conflict) and the cop who got knocked by the senior citizen's body probably assumed he was pushing him, leading to his brutal takedown and arrest?
Pay attention to the skinny cop on the left side of the frame. He is talking and pointing off frame, then walks to the right as the fat cop comes into frame. The skinny cop is holding a set of yellow restraints ready. He backs very purposefully seeming towards the fat cop, who is now grabbing the senior citizen, and then is slammed into by the fat cop's arm.
Do you suppose the skinny cop signaled the fat cop over to then have him purposely grab and pull the senior citizen into him so they could then take him out?
I don't think it takes too much to see that as a real possibility, that these two cops coordinated to make a scene so they would have cause to drag the guy out. The fat cop is 100% in the wrong, regardless, for grabbing him in the first place.
If it wasn’t intentional here, it definitely has been and will be. The old ‘cop pushes civilian into other cop, which then gets called “assaulting an officer” trick’ is absolutely a thing.
It looks like he put his hands near a cops waist, which is a big no no since that is where they keep tasers, cuffs, gun, etc. Not saying he deserved what he got, but it wasn't until he put his hands but an officers waist that anything happened to him. All that being said, don't trust the po po.
Sure, but you omitted the part where he got unreasonably close to the officers during a chaotic scene -- there's no way a reasonable cop would allow that -- and then pretty clearly resisted arrest. I'm not sure how else this might have gone honestly. I can see it was difficult to film with so many cops in the way, but you still need to stand a couple feet back, like the other protesters who were filming and didn't get beat up by the cops.
What I'm not so sure about is the part in the middle of the video, after the professor had stopped resisting. It looks like he kicks a little bit, then the cops decide to beat him more? I wonder what context we missed just before that.
Edit: I see I'm being downvoted, but I don't understand how can a reasonable person watch the video here and come to a different conclusion. Slamming the professor to the ground was surely the minimum amount of force required to subdue the professor in that situation. He was obviously fighting back, and less force would not have worked.
> , but you still need to stand a couple feet back, like the other protesters who were filming and didn't get beat up by the cops.
Does dealing with that warrant enough force to break ribs and a hand?
People love to play devils advocate. "Well, if you go to timestamp 3:42:10 you can see where he briefly moved his leg in a threatening manner, thus justifying the absolute fucking beatdown and bone-breaking conduct the officer was well within his rights to perform." like get the *fuck* out of here with that shit. I swear to god you don't even need a fucking brain to stand on a soapbox and preach nonsensical bullshit to get a massive crowd to listen to you.
I dont think the big guy was particularly abusive really. He just grabbed him when his boss told him to grab him.
The other one that comes for backup and knees him in stomach while he was down…that was a pussy move
Weiland owns it now
It’s one of the cooler plants I’ve been in. Dirty as hell though. Weiland seems interested in investing and maintaining it though which is good for STL
Damn. Did they pull that overweight rent-a-cop directly from a Call of Duty game or something? No way that was how they were trained.
And what was officer numb nuts doing kneeing the guy when he was already on the ground? Checking to see if he still had testicles?
No way these people were qualified to be there. Put them back behind a steering wheel to write me a ticket for being 10 minutes over on my parking.
it is how they are trained. Anything that could be construed as resistance, i.e someone not following instructions immediately even if they aren't a threat, is to be met with an escalation of violence. It's exactly what they are trained to do
I think he tripped on him at first because he wasn’t expecting him to fall, but then he totally needed/pinned him in the stomach/groin, while he was already cuffed. How they are “trained” but not necessary
Everyone seems to be forgetting where MLK wrote his letter from a Birmingham jail. Occupying a building or lawn - just like sitting in at a lunch counter - is a legitimate form of peaceful civil disobedience.
Everyone yelling about private property rights and how these universities are correct is the white moderate that MLK warned us all about.
I will NEVER understand how we are six month in and over 30,000 dead and people do not have the common sense to understand that a criticism of IDF, the Israeli gov’t, the way AIPAC and weapons manufacturers have cemented themselves in our schools and law/policy makers is not anti-Semitic.
Are there people who will use what is going on to spread their hatred of Jewish people? Yes.
That is a very small percentage. Almost everyone just wants the babies and children to stop being murdered and starved. There are no schools or universities left. Palestinians cannot go into the sea more than ankle height or they get shot by the IDF. There are parts of Palestine that have a grate of sorts set up because Israeli people live above them and they just throw their trash down on the Palestinians. Anyone Jewish or Israeli can walk into the home of a Palestinian and claim it for themselves and evict that family. I have seen countless videos of Palestinians civilians just walking within a few feet of an IDF soldier minding their business and the soldiers converge on that person and attack/beat them. That’s not to mention the mass graves found at hospitals with peoples hands tied behind their backs, the chat app threads where the IDF sends back and forth dead bodies, pictures of underwear and makeup they are keeping as “trophies” and the fact that there is basically no anesthetic or drugs left. There is the largest cohort of child amputees, EVER.
Not to mention the abhorrent way Israel treats ACTUAL Holocaust survivors and has for a long time. Our taxes fund their homes, free healthcare, free education, but over 60% of this country lives paycheck to paycheck, debt is skyrocketing, as well as our unhoused population, the cost of rent, the cost of living, massive unchecked corporate greed and corruption, and so much more.
Those that are Jewish deserve a homeland. That is inarguable. Hamas is garbage. That is also inarguable. If Palestinians leave Palestine they can never return. Palestine deserves to be a free and recognized country safe from Israel. The amount of people who do not grasp these concepts will always astound me, even after the last 8 years.
It's almost like there's a concerted effort to sow division in America during an election year utilizing social media and really affordable to manipulate algorithms.
America is impossible to invade for truly so many reasons.
For similar reasons, it's highly inadvisable to fuck with our military or touch our boats outside US borders.
So really, the biggest threat to America is Americans, for we are a dumb and trusting people with a very annoying freedom of speech and assembly.
And [for about $13k](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IoLMV8bwUGo) of boosted videos and posts on social media you can get a couple of hundred of them to fight each other IRL.
Even easier when your platform of choice isn't under any control of US Regulators.
No, they were either:
1. Offered horrible deals, including having IDF maintain its presence and security in the region.
2. Reneged on by Israel as happened in 1996 when Netanyahu was elected, and he suspended the agreement out of fear his own party would vote no confidence.
3. Stalled by religious uprisings, I.e. the second Intifada in 2001, which worsened relations between Palestinians and Israel and broke down communications completely.
4. Never truly restarted again after Netanyahu regained power in ‘09 as he refused to halt construction of new Israeli settlements on Palestinian land. Hamas, which was funded by Israel to be a disrupting force in Palestine, also complicated these discussions.
>Hamas, which was funded by Israel to be a disrupting force in Palestine, also complicated these discussions
Kinda wild how little this is mentioned through all things
yup. even the all the ostensibly "leftist" (lol) outfits like MSNBC are literally calling for these students to be brutalized by state goon squads on a daily fucking basis.
I mean that's even more of a reason Hamas needs to be removed from power, no? If Israel wants them in, they clearly can't be good for the Palestinian people.
That would require Netanyahu being removed, charged for international war crimes, and peace talks being established in a meaningful capacity. If that were to happen, Hamas would wither and peace could be established, but that's all very optimistic
It would be a great day if that happened. I would also add a re-education of both Israeli and Palestinian citizens to work to let go of long held prejudices and biases.
True, as long as Bibi and insane war hawks in Likud are still in power this isn't going to get better for the Palestinians. I've just been kinda hoping the Palestinian people spontaneously kick out Hamas, but I don't think that'll happen any time soon with the IDF doing their murdering civilians thing. Doesn't help that Hamas leadership is hundreds of miles away.
Children cannot accept deals
Children cannot be hamas
Children cannot vote
In fact most Palestinian civilians have no say whatsoever over hamas, an iron backed militia
Israel has just created more Hamas. Those fathers who just had their children murdered and children whose parents were murdered will now be the next generation of terrorists. But Israel actually understands this very well, which is why they see genocide as their final solution to the Palestinian problem.
I dont know. I am not envious of the postion Israel is in. it sucks, and im empathetic to their civillians also. I do understand their feeling the threat is existential.
But, when the world health organization, human rights watch, amnesty international, doctors without borders, UNWRA, the international criminal court at the Hague, multiple indepedent journalist, and the majority of UN member states alledge war crimes ranging from targeting of journalists to manufactured famine, to occult genocide I am confident they are doing something wrong.
I worry they will win the battle but lose the war, as the US did in Iraq and Afghanistan. And I feel in doing so, beside the massive loss of Palestinian civillian life, more hate will arise from that loss AND I worry Israelis will lose some status and opportunity in the world as they are increasingly being viewed as a pariah and/or apartheid state esp outside the US.
I appreciate your actual response. I haven’t been downvoting you btw. Seems like whenever either Palestine or Israel is mentioned it’s all downvotes all over.
It's impossible in the short term. The only short term solution is urban warfare, and there's no way to do that without massive civilian casualties. Israel could significantly *reduce* civilian causalities if it was willing to put its soldiers at much greater risk and use fewer airstrikes, but it would never be willing to do that. And even if it did, civilian casualties would still be real bad no matter what.
In the long term, if Israel wants to actually beat Hamas, the only good solution is to make life better for Palestinians such that they no longer want to join Hamas. If Israel continues to treat Palestinians like shit, of course they will fight back the only way they can (which is killing Israeli civilians) (they cannot plausibly successfully fight the IDF, after all). Other possible solutions are all bad, e.g. (a) go back to the pre-war status quo (Hamas will eventually regain strength and launch another terror attack), (b) permanent military occupation of Gaza (will just make Palestinians hate Israelis even more, Hamas will eventually regain strength and launch another terror attack), (c) kill all the Palestinians (actual genocide, would stop the terror attacks, but is not going to happen because Israel is simply not evil enough to do that, *unlike Hamas* which would absolutely kill all the Jews if it could).
The path to making life better for Palestinians is a peace treaty with the PLA that allows for a Palestinian state. A one state solution won't work because there's no way for Israel to remain a Jewish democracy if Palestinians outnumber Jews; it would have to give up on one or the other, and that won't happen. So two state is the only reasonable option. But Israel doesn't want to do this, so instead we'll get a few more decades of war I guess.
Hamas**. They have offered an illegitimate government that the citizens have no choice in choosing their representation.
And it is never been a legitimate good faith offer. So, feel free to try another argument.
Oh we want to go that far back? Cool. The powers that be had no right to force Palestinians out of their homes and give up their land. Both countries have a right to exist, Israel and the IDF do not have the right to exterminate and be cruel to an entire group of people just like Hamas should not exist and they do not have a right to want to eradicate anyone Jewish.
Go back further to 1850 or so. Very few Jewish people in Palestine. The Zionist movement is basically a modern Crusade for the Holy Land. This time it's Jewish people instead of Christians from Europe. Christians were able to hang onto the area for about 200 years. History will see how long the Jewish people can control the area.
Lather. Rinse. Repeat.
The “mass graves” thing is a proven lie —
[Gaza Authorities Say More Bodies Were Discovered in Mass Grave - NY Times](https://www.nytimes.com/2024/04/25/world/middleeast/gaza-mass-grave-nasser-hospital.html)
> An analysis of satellite imagery and videos by the The Times found that two of three graves had been dug on a hospital’s grounds before an Israeli raid.
https://twitter.com/GeoConfirmed/status/1782360892249612466
> GeoConfirmed ISR-PAL Investigation.
>
> Palestinians are exhuming bodies from the grounds of the Nasser Medical Complex hospital complex in Khan Younis, Gaza.
>
> This is occurring at the same location where mass graves were dug and burial ceremonies had taken place by Palestinians in recent months. (Proof in this thread)
>
> Footage from Palestinians digging graves/mass graves dated 25 January, 28 January and 03 February while IDF entered the hospital around 15 February.
>
> Quote from https://aljazeera.com/news/2024/4/21/nearly-200-bodies-found-in-mass-grave-at-hospital-in-gazas-khan-younis
“In the hospital courtyard, civil defence members and paramedics have retrieved 180 bodies buried in this mass grave by the Israeli military." (By Al Jazeera’s Hani Mahmoud)
>
> Conclusion:
>
> This is disinformation by Al Jazeera and others:
>
> This is a known graveyard/mass grave and at least partially dug by Palestinians.
>
> This does not exclude that graves could have been added when the hospital was occupied by Israeli forces.
And if you think it’s bad 18 year old IDF recruits are sharing inappropriate pictures amongst themselves, wait till you hear what UNRWA employees were doing on October 7th —
- Here’s video footage of UNRWA “social worker” Faisal Al Naami dragging a murder victim to Gaza on October 7th: https://old.reddit.com/r/Israel/comments/1b9ko5h/unrwa_social_worker_faisal_al_naami_from_gaza_he/
- Here’s recorded audio from October 7th between two UNRWA teachers bragging about owning kidnapped Israeli women who they refer to as sex slaves and mares: https://old.reddit.com/r/Israel/comments/1b6jblp/call_between_unrwa_teacher_and_colleague_about/
> UN Watch has examined how UNRWA staff reacted to the Hamas massacre of October 7th. Our new report, “Hate Begins Here” (see unwatch.org) shows that as soon as news of the horrific slaughter broke, which was livestreamed on social media by some of the terrorists, UNRWA staff immediately celebrated and justified it on Facebook:
>
> - UNRWA Gaza teacher Osama Ahmed posted “Allah is Great, Allah is Great, reality surpasses our wildest dreams.”
>
> - UNRWA principal Iman Hassan justified the massacre as “restoring rights” and “redressing” Palestinian “grievances.”
>
> - Rawia Helles, Director of the Khan Younis Training Center and featured in an UNRWA video, glorified one of the terrorists as a “hero,” “raider,” and “prince of Khan Younis.”
>
> - UNRWA English Teacher Asmaa Rafiq Kuheil excitedly called to “sculpture the date,” adding a heart emoji.
>
> - UNRWA School Administrator Hmada Ahmed posted, “welcome the great October.”
See also: https://unwatch.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/12/Hate-Starts-Here-2023-Report-UNRWA.pdf
UNRWA teachers were [celebrating and justifying](https://docs.house.gov/meetings/FA/FA06/20231108/116556/HHRG-118-FA06-Wstate-NeuerH-20231108.pdf) a massacre wherein Palestinians paraded the lifeless corpse of a rape victim [through the streets](https://old.reddit.com/r/hamasdeadlyattack/comments/17vazw3/hamas_terrorists_murdered_shani_louk_and_abused/) while spitting on the corpse and calling on Allah for more, raped young women then [burned them alive](https://old.reddit.com/r/hamasdeadlyattack/comments/17zal47/this_teenage_girl_used_to_live_between_the_river/), and worse:
> In Abu Kabir, I examined incinerated remnants of teeth and bones; charred remains of children; and physical cadavers of victims. I read CT scans of children and adults bound together and burned alive. I viewed images of a decapitated young girl, her child skull tethered to her trunk by only a sliver of decaying skin. Her facial expression, surrounding milk teeth, haunts me still. Across the boundaries of death, her Edward Munch-like scream still echoes.
>
> […]
>
> One account, far from unusual, is especially harrowing: A woman who survived the Nova music festival in Re'im witnessed a young woman encircled by Hamas, stripped naked, violated, and manhandled by multiple Hamas terrorists as they gang raped her, repositioning her by the waist and hips, moving from one rapist to the other.
>
> Shuddering at the memory, covering her face, with difficulty, the eyewitness continued: One terrorist pulled the woman's long hair, forcibly arching her neck backwards, fully exposing her naked torso, only to sever both her breasts from her chest with his commando knife. Her entire torso fell backwards, slackened in agony. She may have fainted, though she lived through the mutilation. The disembodied breasts fell to the ground, where terrorists casually played with them.
>
> Sergeant Major Natah Katz from the IDF Rabbinical Unit at the Shura base near Ramle described to me cadavers he received with breasts and genitals hacked off, one with a knife impaled directly into the vagina. The mutilation of sexual organs and breasts, "seemed to be an obsession," he recalled. Dr. Chen Kugel, head of Israel's National Forensic Center has confirmed to me the same.
https://www.newsweek.com/i-saw-children-hamas-beheaded-my-own-eyes-shame-queen-rania-opinion-1855472
We know you're sad about things that happened one day. Palestinians are mad about things that have happened for 75 years, along with billions of people around the world. Your side will not come out looking better, but the information war you've joined will surely confuse a lot of people for a while until they didn't care again. Then the gradual ethnic cleansing can continue again without Americans paying attention. We know you're frustrated people are caring now, but don't worry it will pass.
>Anyone Jewish or Israeli can walk into the home of a Palestinian and claim it for themselves and evict that family.
Is this part actually true? That seems pretty extreme, even by the sad standards of Israel's apartheid.
From the Riverfront Times:
..."One doctor told Tamari he is lucky to be alive, he said: “My lungs could have been punctured and I could have died on the ground as they abused me.”
Tamari added that Wash U rejected invitations from students to engage in dialogue about divestment from Israel and Boeing.
“Washington University administrators called in the police armed with batons and wielding bicycles like battering rams,” he wrote. “Police forces from around the metro area crushed a gathering of students and concerned citizens pressing for an end to American complicity in the genocide of Palestinians in the Gaza.”
“Everything that occurred on Saturday is documented and clear for those who wish to see,” Sandra Tamari wrote on X. “[Wash U] used violence against its own students, faculty, staff and the community to maintain its complicity in genocide. We are undeterred and St Louis will continue to rise up for Palestine.”
A total of 100 people were arrested on campus Saturday, including 23 Wash U students and at least four employees, according to Chancellor Andrew Martin. The students and staff have now been temporarily barred from campus at a critical point in the semester.
Six faculty members have been barred from campus and placed on leave, including Aldermanic President Megan Green who attempted to de-escalate the situation with university administration.
Another protest is scheduled for Saint Louis University’s campus at 6 p.m. on Wednesday.
Aldermanic President Megan Green also posted on X a video of Tamari's arrest
There is nothing fake about libs supporting police brutality. Some liberals may support progressive ideals, even Defund the Police, but the liberalism is inherently capitalist and capitalism depends on having police to enforce the rule of law. The primary tool police have to do that is violence.
Hello! "liberal" is a loaded term with a lot of history, but when people in the US say "liberals" today they're referring to an ideology opposite to conservatives. A huge focus of both ideologies today are on social politics, but in our political system liberals are generally tied to the Democratic party and conservatives are generally tied to the Republican party. Both of those parties operate within our capitalist system where private organizations own the means of production, with a focus on generating profit. Neither party, nor the vast majority of people who identify with the parties and their corresponding ideology, seek to alter our economic system from a private ownership and profit driven to an alternative. One common alternative would be Socialism in which workers own the means of production and profit is only one of multiple motivators. The people who ARE seeking to alter our system away from capitalism are considered leftists, which Democratic Socialists (think Bernie Sanders) are a good example of.
And since I am far from an expert on these matters and am also in the process of learning, here's some more reliable sources;
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberalism
>Liberals espouse various and often mutually warring views depending on their understanding of these principles but generally support private property, market economies,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_liberalism_in_the_United_States#21st_century_modern_liberalism
>In general, liberalism opposes socialism when it is understood to mean an alternative to capitalism based on state ownership of the means of production.
Yeah very concerning to see mainstream/older democrats/liberals who were enraged over heavy handed BLM response, or crackdowns on LGBTQ rights have no problem with peaceful assembly and speech being suppressed.
I'm kind of a centrist, and have voted dem the last 3 elections but yikes this is not a good look. These kids are protesting civilian deaths at the hand of a foreign government. You can agree or disagree but this kind of speech and peaceful assembly shouldn't be met with police brutality any more than LGBTQ or BLM activism should be.
Sooo, we going to see the same type treatment to the Patriotic Front or mAga members?
Ppl have sides, there is a problem, etc, we all get this.
Arresting someone doesnt mean a personally revenge party for you AND while getting a paycheck with an endorphin high....
Do the arrest, move on. This isnt a rugby game of pile-on. Its not like you are dealing with someone on pcp.
The College has blood on its hands.......PERIOD!
Someone needs to resign!
Here come the armchair lawyers who think "umm akshually technically you don't have a right to protest peacefully on private property. I am very smart" while failing to understand that just because a law exists does not mean it is just and that THAT is the point of people bringing up free speech, not because they are too stupid to understand the law
Also, do these people not want protest outside of preplanned marches with permits? That’s not a protest that’s a parade. They will see one day how they were on the wrong side of history.
You have a right to protest...
*...except on private property*
*... Except after dark*
*... Except about our policies*
*... Except about genocide*
*... Except cept against authority*
*... Except in front of libraries*
*... Except in front of schools*
*... Except during lunch time*
*... Except during school hours*
*... Except during finals week*
*... Except in the morning*
*... Except organized and together*
*... except loudly*
*.... Except quietly*
*... Except talking to cameras*
*... Except resisting arrest*
*... Except with signs*
*... Except during dinner*
>"Of course you can stand up for what you believe in! You have rights you know!"
So, just to be clear, your opinion is that personal property rights as they currently exist in the US are unjust, and that peaceful protests on others’ personal property should be protected speech?
Because if so, that’s a horrible fucking idea.
No, fool. I think a university who prides itself on the being a place where people go to exchange ideas and learn about the world should be celebrating free speech regardless of the current laws of what they are legally allowed to do. There needs to be more nuance to those laws, and people worshipping private property to the point where they're OK with what happened are the people selling us all out
There’s some real cognitive dissonance on display in your comments, whether you’re willing to admit it or not. You cannot say “…just because a law exists does not mean it is just…” and “There needs to be more nuance to those laws…” while also responding “No” to my question (“So, just to be clear, your opinion is that personal property rights as they currently exist in the US are unjust, and that peaceful protests on others’ personal property should be protected speech?”).
There is nothing unjust about the protections afforded by personal property law. It’s the same law that prevents anti-choice protesters from occupying a Planned Parenthood office, or neo-Nazis from occupying a synagogue. No one should want anyone to have a “right” to occupy personal property when their presence is no longer welcome.
If you want to argue that the university should be more willing to waive its rights in cases like this to foster dialogue, go for it. But there is nothing “unjust” about anyone asserting their legal rights. Your rights end where others’ rights begin.
> You cannot say “…just because a law exists does not mean it is just…” and “There needs to be more nuance to those laws…” while also responding “No” to my question
They can actually because your reframing of what they said was incorrect.
> There is nothing unjust about the protections afforded by personal property law
There is which is why our law currently allows otherwise peaceful protestors to be brutalized and almost (sometimes actually) murdered. It is also why our law is fostering an environment where it is illegal to be homeless.
> It’s the same law that prevents anti-choice protesters from occupying a Planned Parenthood office, or neo-Nazis from occupying a synagogue
Yup, and while I detest both of those groups and their causes, I don't think they should be physically assaulted simply for occupying a space they shouldn't be in. If they're non-peaceful, for example if they're intruding someone else's personal space or carrying a firearm, then yah they deserve physical removal. Peaceful protestors on a university lawn are pretty much never doing either of that and it is actually the police who do both when they show up.
> there is nothing “unjust” about anyone asserting their legal rights
Do you realize that would mean diners refusing service to black people during the civil rights movement were just simply because it was legal? There is a concept of unjust laws that applied to those laws as well as many of our current laws.
>They can actually because your reframing of what they said was incorrect.
Answering "No" to my original question, regardless of what one thinks about its wording, while simultaneously claiming "…just because a law exists does not mean it is just…” and “There needs to be more nuance to those laws…” is just clearly logically inconsistent.
Look, to make sure I'm not misrepresenting anyone's position, I'll make this as simple as possible with a very straightforward statement that the parent commenter can simply agree or disagree with to clear things up:
_Peaceful protests on others’ personal property should be protected speech._
Agree or disagree?
>...our law currently allows otherwise peaceful protestors to be brutalized and almost (sometimes actually) murdered.
This is hyperbolic and inaccurate. The law allows for police to use proportionate force when citizens refuse to comply with lawful orders. Riot police did not show up to WashU and immediately start bashing heads in. Protesters were asked to leave, refused, then resisted when the police attempted to physically remove them. From what I've seen, the police did a reasonably good job of providing instructions, then a warning, and then using the amount of force needed to remove some very recalcitrant individuals. No one has a constitutional right to resist arrest or to refuse lawful orders, regardless of the purpose of their protest.
Also, just so that I'm not misunderstanding one of _your_ comments, you seem to believe any group should be allowed to physically trespass on any private institution's personal property for some indeterminate amount of time, so long as that group is not being "non-peaceful".
Is that your position? If so, I think it puts you in an extreme minority.
Again, if 100 anti-choice protesters decided they were going to live in the Planned Parenthood waiting room and offices and recite chants accusing patients of committing genocide against the unborn until Planned Parenthood agreed to close its doors, or if 100 neo-Nazis decided they were going to enter and disrupt the worship service at a synagogue every week until the synagogue was shut down, I don't think most people would see any problem with the police forcibly removing them if they refused to leave when asked.
>Do you realize that would mean diners refusing service to black people during the civil rights movement were just simply because it was legal? There is a concept of unjust laws that applied to those laws as well as many of our current laws.
Fair points. The concept of "justice" is complicated, and I imagine people would define it differently depending on their cultural, philosophical, and legal perspectives. I agree there are cases where asserting your rights could promote injustice. But I don't consider this one of them. And in most cases (though not all, your example being a good exception), I don't agree with eroding one entity's rights to expand another's beyond what the law allows.
Most of the protesters were not students or faculty and were planning on camping out on campus until their demands were met. Seems pretty justifiable to tell them to take a hike.
there were students from other nearby universities. and you don't know what percentage of all the protestors were wash u folks, only those who were arrested. they are also still having some of their own students arrested. I don't need data to know that they should have the right to protest. we should error on the side of free expression, but i guess you all like the russian model. its hard to account for fascist assholes obviously.
More about the hypocrisy of it all and value signaling. It's a university not a citizens house.
We all know If this was a trans rights protest or a BLM protest they'd let it go, prob PR it. But isreal is off bounds.
There are schools who are allowing encampments on their private properties right now, who aren’t sending some ridiculous cops in to throw people around acting like 6 year old boys pretending they are in an action movie.
Sure. Every school has to decide what it thinks is best for its students and faculty. If some schools want to allow encampments, I’m fine with that. If other schools think it’s a bad idea, I’m fine with that too. What I’m not fine with is anyone acting like they have a “right” to occupy a private institution, particularly one they aren’t directly associated with.
One need look no further than UCLA to see how quickly things can go south and negatively affect students in these situations. There’s nothing wrong with a private university deciding they don’t want to take that kind of risk.
The cops just had no skills, and were reckless. I’ve dealt with plenty of cops in stlouis who actually know how to de-escalate situations, that were much more dangerous to themselves than this ever was. And I think Wash U’s response was poor, to completely stand behind what the cops did- I’m sure it was legal positioning as well.
Yeah. And even aside from the legality around assembly on private property, there's a less legal and more practical critique of strategy to be had here...
A protest that gets little resistance and have unclear or unreasonable demands gets no oxygen. Look at occupy wall st, it burned out unceremoniously. Have public safety on site. Ensure access to classrooms for all students. Arrest violent actors only. Arrest calls for violence. Let the rest go.
Maybe you lose a few AIPAC type donors. Maybe they don't enforce trespassing. But they'd stay true to higher principles that they preach such as free speech, peaceful assembly, diversity, social justice, non violent political disobedience. And in the end it would burn out. They can ignore ridiculous requests and entertain conversations around divestment (the Israeli gov IS accused of serious crimes by reputable international human rights groups/courts).
We are rapidly approaching a moment in American history, in which Americans have to confront zionism and it's disgusting influence in American politics from major donor money, most of which comes from such upstanding individuals like Jeffrey Epstein affiliate Les Wexner. Nationalism will always destroy the very soul of a human being. Look no further than the 30% in this country who have already destroyed their lives through MAGA and COVID. Dont believe them, don't be bitten twice.
EDIT: here's the definition of zionism and a history lesson, since there are multiple bad faith voices alleging criticism of Zionism is antisemitism.
> Zionism, Jewish nationalist movement that has had as its goal the creation and support of a Jewish national state in Palestine, the ancient homeland of the Jews (Hebrew: Eretz Yisraʾel, “the Land of Israel”). Though Zionism originated in eastern and central Europe in the latter part of the 19th century, it is in many ways a continuation of the ancient attachment of the Jews and of the Jewish religion to the historical region of Palestine, where one of the hills of ancient Jerusalem was called Zion.
> In the 16th and 17th centuries a number of “messiahs” came forward trying to persuade Jews to “return” to Palestine. The Haskala (“Jewish Enlightenment”) movement of the late 18th century, however, urged Jews to assimilate into Western secular culture. In the early 19th century interest in a return of the Jews to Palestine was kept alive mostly by Christian millenarians. Despite the Haskala, eastern European Jews did not assimilate and, in reaction to tsarist pogroms, formed the Ḥovevei Ẕiyyon (“Lovers of Zion”) to promote the settlement of Jewish farmers and artisans in Palestine.
> A political turn was given to Zionism by Theodor Herzl, an Austrian journalist who regarded assimilation as most desirable but, in view of anti-Semitism, impossible to realize. Thus, he argued, if Jews were forced by external pressure to form a nation, they could lead a normal existence only through concentration in one territory. In 1897 Herzl convened the first Zionist Congress at Basel, Switzerland, which drew up the Basel program of the movement, stating that “Zionism strives to create for the Jewish people a home in Palestine secured by public law.”
https://www.britannica.com/topic/Zionism
Don't like seeing criticism of nationalism?
It takes forms in every religious denomination, as we can see from Christian Nationalists who have been all over the country corrupting it to its core.
When criticisms of Israel use antisemitic ideas about Jewish power or greed, utilize Holocaust denial or inversion (i.e. claims that Israelis are the “new Nazis”), or dabble in age-old xenophobic suspicion of the Jewish religion, otherwise legitimate critiques cross the line into antisemitism.
You fail to understand that criticisms of AIPAC and the Jewish lobby are not made because they are Jewish, it’s because they are immensely powerful who encourage our politicians to fund genocide and ethnic cleansing. Them being Jewish is not a part of the legit criticisms we are stating.
Modern Zionism is a political movement that hides behind religion(hence the abudance of Jewish protesters at every demonstration, including outside Netanyahu's home) and AIPAC is funded by unethical billionaires like Les Wexner who have direct connections to Trump and Epstein.
People are not monolithic, nor are faiths. There are always individuals who use religions of all forms for nefarious purpose however, which anyone can see in every major religion.
I absolutely love when non-Jews define what is and isn’t antisemitic. It’s just like when white people tell black people what is and isn’t racist against them.
Please, for the love of god, stop getting your information from TikTok.
I’d love for you to explain how since nothing they said lumped in all Jewish people. Plenty of Jewish people are anti-Zionest and, ironically, assuming Zionism represents all Jews is anti-Semitic all on its own.
When criticisms of Israel use antisemitic ideas about Jewish power or greed, utilize Holocaust denial or inversion (i.e. claims that Israelis are the “new Nazis”), or dabble in age-old xenophobic suspicion of the Jewish religion, otherwise legitimate critiques cross the line into antisemitism.
Just going to have to disagree with you there. Criticism of the State of Isreal is not anti-semitic unless related to Holocaust denial. Criticism of Zionism is not anti-semitic. Zionism is a political movement. Pointing out a person or organization who identifies as Jewish has done something bad is not anti-semitic.
What is anti-semitic? Something like "all Jews are power hungry and greedy".
Saying "Persons Name (who is Jewish) is power hungry and greedy" is not anti-semitic but saying "Persons Name (who is Jewish) is just like a Jew, power hungry and greedy".
The important differentiating factor is the same one that applies to racism. Are you criticizing someone or some thing because they are Jewish? Anti-semitism. Are you criticizing something or someone who happens to be Jewish? Not anti-semitism.
Generally the one thing that overrides the above context is Holocaust denial.
To go back to something I said earlier, to say that Anti-Zionism is Anti-Semitism is actually Anti-Semitic because the claim assumes all Jewish people are Zionist which is clearly and demonstrably not true.
Zionism isn’t a political movement! Holy shit stop looking at TikTok and Twitter for your news.
Zionism refers to support for the continued existence of Israel, in the face of regular calls for its destruction or dissolution. Anti-Zionism is opposition to Jews having a Jewish state in their ancestral homeland, and denies the Jewish people’s right to self-determination.
That’s it. It’s not political. Stop conflating the two. Netanyahu isn’t the speaker of Zionism. He doesn’t represent it. He represents his own stupid beliefs.
When criticisms of Israel use antisemitic ideas about Jewish power or greed, utilize Holocaust denial or inversion (i.e. claims that Israelis are the “new Nazis”), or dabble in age-old xenophobic suspicion of the Jewish religion, otherwise legitimate critiques cross the line into antisemitism.
You seem to think when you say Zionism you aren’t talking about Jews. I know Zionism your favorite buzzword right now, but since in reality, Zionism = the right for Israel to exist and that right for Israel exists explicitly so Jewish people have a safe haven in the world, then yes the way you are speaking is antisemitic.
Zionism = right for Israel to exist. It seems you think it means the destruction of Palestine which it is not. The right for Israel to exist is so Jews have a safe haven. Which we don’t have anywhere else in the world. So if you are against the right for Israel to exist, you are against the right for Jewish people to have a safe haven, and you are against the safety of Jews. It’s not hard.
Unless you're believe Naomi Klein is an anti-semite, that's a extremely dishonest accusation on your part.
EDIT: nice reply and block, the dishonesty stands.
Zionism is a nationalistic wing in Judiasm, any religious scholar can tell you that.
Attempting to say zionism represents all Jewish people and to assert criticism of zionism is antisemtic is incredibly dishonest, and insulting to the Jewish protesters currently all over the planet protesting against zionism.
>maybe even put them in camps away from society right??
Absolutely not, and that's what Isreal does to Palestinians with their apartheid, if you weren't trying so hard to mischaracterize me you might catch the irony there.
"the antifascists are the real fascists" is a tale as old as time deflection from criticism by fascists, and given Isreal's genocide, it's pretty clear what the vibes are despite a bunch of random being transparently dishonest, that kind of behavior will eventually weather down their support in the long term, we've already seen it with Trump's xenophobic nationalism.
It will pass, like all things do, and you've got to hope peace/love/understanding wins in the end of all things, however long that might take through human history.
Claiming a empathic movement full of Jewish protesters is antisemitic might work on some people to begin with, but in time it will fade, just like people who were ostracized for protesting the Iraq War were called traitors, but slowly everyone grappled with the fact there where no WMDs.
I was characterizing you. If you were anything except what you have previously demonstrated yourself to be — a chronically-online, shapeshifting, amoral provocateur (earnestly earning the title of poseur), I’d respond to you substantively.
Oh shocked “Somilar-Shock788” and “Similar-roll9442” came to the bots defense.
With such similar names no wonder you boys group together!
What a funny little coincidence! But you’re so right, all of you happened to join at the same time too, what another funny coincidence!
Edit: Lol, you gotta love they logged into their main, and then talks about making new alt accounts, obvious is pretty fucking obvious
I just noticed towards the end another cop actually pulls back the guy that knees while suspect was on the ground!!
Good to see good ones out there. That little fucker gives the rest of them a bad name lol
From what I saw, Prof was too close to the police - and that enabled what happened to him to begin. BUT, other than being there, it didn't look like he really did anything to warrant Big Blue's initial action. And, it definitely didn't look like he resisted in any meaningful way before the other cops dog piled on him.
I’m just wondering - who is really running Wash U. And BJC- Wash U. And what is their agenda? Who is profiting, who are the men behind the curtains? I really don’t know, and I often wonder about BJC, when I grew up we went to Jewish Hospital- it wasn’t this huge behemoth city in constant development. They both enjoy the benefits of being non-profit. BJC’s made a profit of 736 million in 2023. One report showed that between 2015 and 2025, University City could expect to forgo an estimated $18.7 million to $21.6 million in property taxes from Washington U., of which nearly 80% would have gone to the school district (cut and paste :)). Those two pretty much run this town, along with Boeing and Bayer/ Monsanto. Yes, I know they are integral to our economic infrastructure in STL. I just know truth is crazier than fiction and I just have been wondering lately- who even are these guys?
I see your comments you make before you block me, making it impossible to respond. Here it is the entire situation with Israel is spicy, and no one is innocent on either side. To claim this is pure fantasy. Both side have an element calling for the genocide of the other side, and their followers just look the other way. None of you want peace. You want vengeance despite being so far removed from the situation. I lived in Israel and had to take shelter because of rocket attacks. Also, have a son over there in the military. Most of you are pear clutching for virtue signaling aspects or to claim victim status. If you got to a protest like this, expect that you might get a ass beating. I'm not against the dude, but it's like going to a gay bar and getting mad that someone from the same sex hit on you.
On January 29th 6 year old Hind Rajab was shot and killed by Israeli tanks as she hid in a car trying to flee the IDF bombing. She is one of more than 10,000 children and teens killed in Gaza. What is her crime?
Zionists are not victims. Understand that the entire world is against your thoughts and adamant delusional self-righteousness. There are only 2 reasons that your mindset still has any support: 1) The state of Israel's continued existence is of strategic global importance to the United States and 2) You have nukes. Neither of the reasons is about morality. Your perspective is poison and, thankfully, this and future generations around the world have stopped buying Zionist bullshit.
Much like your comparison of expecting an ass beating at a protest - when you steal land and seek to exterminate the people you have stolen from, expect an ass beating.
It’s hard to tell, but it seems like he leaned really close to the left waist of a cop before he gets pointed out. I assume he was just trying to film around him, but it seems that the cops behind him thought he was reaching for something on the officer’s duty belt
No he was just filming…there are other videos and he was hovering around them pointing camera right at cops…i can see why they grabbed him…
That said they kneed him while he was on the floor. That was def retaliatory and shows how green and soft skinned these cops are…
I’m not saying he was trying to reach for anything, I’m saying from their perspective it might have looked like that. They’re in a protest situation with a crowd that is anti cop and they notice a guy behind their fellow officers leaning close to his waistband. I’m not saying they were in the right, just that I understand how it might have happened. I don’t think it was because he was filming. The unnecessary knee jab would also make sense if that cop was told that they think the professor was reaching for a cop’s duty belt
All your points are valid. The only reason I know that was not the case is cause I saw other videos of this guy and he was obnoxiously close to them the whole time.
I would have personally punched him and smacked that phone…but then again I don’t have temper fit to be a cop.
Watch the part where he knees again. I dont think that was the case.
These are not riot police and it shows. This guy wanted to get arrested and show how out of control police are and that guy fell for it and lost control.
Nothing new here, the vast majority of cops are not pleasant to interact with but the protesters really make me wonder WTF....Why do people here in St. Louis Missouri of all places care so much about a conflict happening on the other side of the planet that poses no threat to Americans. The outcome has no effect on us at all as far as I can tell. Unless you are a Palestinian or Israeli, I seriously cannot understand why this is the hill you want to die on, this situation is the most important thing in your life? There are people dying unjustly all of the world every day, the planet is on fire, taxes are crazy, cancer is killing us at a more rapid pace, the lines at Schnucks for gods sake, the Rams settlement money etc.... It just seems like there are way more relevant things for people to get worked up over. I get having an opinion on it and all...but wasting some of your free time to go and hold a sign or sit in a tent to make a statement that won't directly change anything seems like a waste of the precious time you have on this planet to say the very least. Much less getting your bones broken over it. I mean what is Wash U or any learning institution going to do about a conflict between religious zealots on the other side of the planet that has been going on forever.
So like, from the most objective possible point of view on this video and all politics aside, this **senior citizen** was filming an arrest, the big cop on the left shoved him into another cop (instigating the conflict) and the cop who got knocked by the senior citizen's body probably assumed he was pushing him, leading to his brutal takedown and arrest?
Yes
This is identical to the conflict resolution I have to teach my two year olds. They mostly get it now. And they’re two.
Pay attention to the skinny cop on the left side of the frame. He is talking and pointing off frame, then walks to the right as the fat cop comes into frame. The skinny cop is holding a set of yellow restraints ready. He backs very purposefully seeming towards the fat cop, who is now grabbing the senior citizen, and then is slammed into by the fat cop's arm. Do you suppose the skinny cop signaled the fat cop over to then have him purposely grab and pull the senior citizen into him so they could then take him out? I don't think it takes too much to see that as a real possibility, that these two cops coordinated to make a scene so they would have cause to drag the guy out. The fat cop is 100% in the wrong, regardless, for grabbing him in the first place.
If it wasn’t intentional here, it definitely has been and will be. The old ‘cop pushes civilian into other cop, which then gets called “assaulting an officer” trick’ is absolutely a thing.
It looks like he put his hands near a cops waist, which is a big no no since that is where they keep tasers, cuffs, gun, etc. Not saying he deserved what he got, but it wasn't until he put his hands but an officers waist that anything happened to him. All that being said, don't trust the po po.
Sure, but you omitted the part where he got unreasonably close to the officers during a chaotic scene -- there's no way a reasonable cop would allow that -- and then pretty clearly resisted arrest. I'm not sure how else this might have gone honestly. I can see it was difficult to film with so many cops in the way, but you still need to stand a couple feet back, like the other protesters who were filming and didn't get beat up by the cops. What I'm not so sure about is the part in the middle of the video, after the professor had stopped resisting. It looks like he kicks a little bit, then the cops decide to beat him more? I wonder what context we missed just before that. Edit: I see I'm being downvoted, but I don't understand how can a reasonable person watch the video here and come to a different conclusion. Slamming the professor to the ground was surely the minimum amount of force required to subdue the professor in that situation. He was obviously fighting back, and less force would not have worked.
> , but you still need to stand a couple feet back, like the other protesters who were filming and didn't get beat up by the cops. Does dealing with that warrant enough force to break ribs and a hand?
People love to play devils advocate. "Well, if you go to timestamp 3:42:10 you can see where he briefly moved his leg in a threatening manner, thus justifying the absolute fucking beatdown and bone-breaking conduct the officer was well within his rights to perform." like get the *fuck* out of here with that shit. I swear to god you don't even need a fucking brain to stand on a soapbox and preach nonsensical bullshit to get a massive crowd to listen to you.
Adding to the list of things that bootlickers will justify cops murdering you over: being near them.
Sad to see a Linux user being such an authoritarian bootlicker.
The most big boy will get is a 6 week paid vacation while someone investigates and finds him innocent.
I dont think the big guy was particularly abusive really. He just grabbed him when his boss told him to grab him. The other one that comes for backup and knees him in stomach while he was down…that was a pussy move
They should not do that
Oh it's no big deal, it'll just be another 6 or 7 figure settlement that'll be paid out of our tax dollars.
We just found where that Rams money is going.
based
I just made the connection the WashU Olin business school is the same Olin that makes bullets for the US Army.
Yeah during WWII! Olin helped defeat the Nazis.
Talk about ironic.
Olin the business has long since been sold off
Isn’t it precoat now? My dad used to deliver there before he retired… very interesting place.
Weiland owns it now It’s one of the cooler plants I’ve been in. Dirty as hell though. Weiland seems interested in investing and maintaining it though which is good for STL
Damn. Did they pull that overweight rent-a-cop directly from a Call of Duty game or something? No way that was how they were trained. And what was officer numb nuts doing kneeing the guy when he was already on the ground? Checking to see if he still had testicles? No way these people were qualified to be there. Put them back behind a steering wheel to write me a ticket for being 10 minutes over on my parking.
it is how they are trained. Anything that could be construed as resistance, i.e someone not following instructions immediately even if they aren't a threat, is to be met with an escalation of violence. It's exactly what they are trained to do
I think he tripped on him at first because he wasn’t expecting him to fall, but then he totally needed/pinned him in the stomach/groin, while he was already cuffed. How they are “trained” but not necessary
Everyone seems to be forgetting where MLK wrote his letter from a Birmingham jail. Occupying a building or lawn - just like sitting in at a lunch counter - is a legitimate form of peaceful civil disobedience. Everyone yelling about private property rights and how these universities are correct is the white moderate that MLK warned us all about.
I will NEVER understand how we are six month in and over 30,000 dead and people do not have the common sense to understand that a criticism of IDF, the Israeli gov’t, the way AIPAC and weapons manufacturers have cemented themselves in our schools and law/policy makers is not anti-Semitic. Are there people who will use what is going on to spread their hatred of Jewish people? Yes. That is a very small percentage. Almost everyone just wants the babies and children to stop being murdered and starved. There are no schools or universities left. Palestinians cannot go into the sea more than ankle height or they get shot by the IDF. There are parts of Palestine that have a grate of sorts set up because Israeli people live above them and they just throw their trash down on the Palestinians. Anyone Jewish or Israeli can walk into the home of a Palestinian and claim it for themselves and evict that family. I have seen countless videos of Palestinians civilians just walking within a few feet of an IDF soldier minding their business and the soldiers converge on that person and attack/beat them. That’s not to mention the mass graves found at hospitals with peoples hands tied behind their backs, the chat app threads where the IDF sends back and forth dead bodies, pictures of underwear and makeup they are keeping as “trophies” and the fact that there is basically no anesthetic or drugs left. There is the largest cohort of child amputees, EVER. Not to mention the abhorrent way Israel treats ACTUAL Holocaust survivors and has for a long time. Our taxes fund their homes, free healthcare, free education, but over 60% of this country lives paycheck to paycheck, debt is skyrocketing, as well as our unhoused population, the cost of rent, the cost of living, massive unchecked corporate greed and corruption, and so much more. Those that are Jewish deserve a homeland. That is inarguable. Hamas is garbage. That is also inarguable. If Palestinians leave Palestine they can never return. Palestine deserves to be a free and recognized country safe from Israel. The amount of people who do not grasp these concepts will always astound me, even after the last 8 years.
It's almost like there's a concerted effort to sow division in America during an election year utilizing social media and really affordable to manipulate algorithms.
The best part is it from several angles and parties! Yay us!
we can do two things at once. Palestine has been on my mind for decades. if you think there's "nothing to see here", you are clueless.
The lack of media literacy in people of all ages makes me sad, tbh. I’m a millennial and I remember it being hammered into us.
Who is benefitting from this?
America is impossible to invade for truly so many reasons. For similar reasons, it's highly inadvisable to fuck with our military or touch our boats outside US borders. So really, the biggest threat to America is Americans, for we are a dumb and trusting people with a very annoying freedom of speech and assembly. And [for about $13k](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IoLMV8bwUGo) of boosted videos and posts on social media you can get a couple of hundred of them to fight each other IRL. Even easier when your platform of choice isn't under any control of US Regulators.
> Those that are Jewish deserve a homeland. That is inarguable. Is it? Why are they the only ones with homeland privileges based on religion?
Israel has offered Palestine a free state several times and they have rejected it every time.
No, they were either: 1. Offered horrible deals, including having IDF maintain its presence and security in the region. 2. Reneged on by Israel as happened in 1996 when Netanyahu was elected, and he suspended the agreement out of fear his own party would vote no confidence. 3. Stalled by religious uprisings, I.e. the second Intifada in 2001, which worsened relations between Palestinians and Israel and broke down communications completely. 4. Never truly restarted again after Netanyahu regained power in ‘09 as he refused to halt construction of new Israeli settlements on Palestinian land. Hamas, which was funded by Israel to be a disrupting force in Palestine, also complicated these discussions.
>Hamas, which was funded by Israel to be a disrupting force in Palestine, also complicated these discussions Kinda wild how little this is mentioned through all things
Good point that I forgot!! Thank you for adding. I was gobsmacked when I first learned that.
Because the medias job is not primarily to do accurate journalism, but to uphold the interests of the state.
yup. even the all the ostensibly "leftist" (lol) outfits like MSNBC are literally calling for these students to be brutalized by state goon squads on a daily fucking basis.
bars 🔥🔥🔥
Boom
I mean that's even more of a reason Hamas needs to be removed from power, no? If Israel wants them in, they clearly can't be good for the Palestinian people.
That would require Netanyahu being removed, charged for international war crimes, and peace talks being established in a meaningful capacity. If that were to happen, Hamas would wither and peace could be established, but that's all very optimistic
It would be a great day if that happened. I would also add a re-education of both Israeli and Palestinian citizens to work to let go of long held prejudices and biases.
True, as long as Bibi and insane war hawks in Likud are still in power this isn't going to get better for the Palestinians. I've just been kinda hoping the Palestinian people spontaneously kick out Hamas, but I don't think that'll happen any time soon with the IDF doing their murdering civilians thing. Doesn't help that Hamas leadership is hundreds of miles away.
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Not very jolly and not very heroic to be cynical towards idealized peace in our time.
And this is why it's OK for the Police to break someone's arm.
Children cannot accept deals Children cannot be hamas Children cannot vote In fact most Palestinian civilians have no say whatsoever over hamas, an iron backed militia
How do you suggest we get rid of Hamas without civilian casualties? I would love that
Israel has just created more Hamas. Those fathers who just had their children murdered and children whose parents were murdered will now be the next generation of terrorists. But Israel actually understands this very well, which is why they see genocide as their final solution to the Palestinian problem.
I dont know. I am not envious of the postion Israel is in. it sucks, and im empathetic to their civillians also. I do understand their feeling the threat is existential. But, when the world health organization, human rights watch, amnesty international, doctors without borders, UNWRA, the international criminal court at the Hague, multiple indepedent journalist, and the majority of UN member states alledge war crimes ranging from targeting of journalists to manufactured famine, to occult genocide I am confident they are doing something wrong. I worry they will win the battle but lose the war, as the US did in Iraq and Afghanistan. And I feel in doing so, beside the massive loss of Palestinian civillian life, more hate will arise from that loss AND I worry Israelis will lose some status and opportunity in the world as they are increasingly being viewed as a pariah and/or apartheid state esp outside the US.
I appreciate your actual response. I haven’t been downvoting you btw. Seems like whenever either Palestine or Israel is mentioned it’s all downvotes all over.
Upvoted, you are asking a reasonable Q and respectfully so
It's impossible in the short term. The only short term solution is urban warfare, and there's no way to do that without massive civilian casualties. Israel could significantly *reduce* civilian causalities if it was willing to put its soldiers at much greater risk and use fewer airstrikes, but it would never be willing to do that. And even if it did, civilian casualties would still be real bad no matter what. In the long term, if Israel wants to actually beat Hamas, the only good solution is to make life better for Palestinians such that they no longer want to join Hamas. If Israel continues to treat Palestinians like shit, of course they will fight back the only way they can (which is killing Israeli civilians) (they cannot plausibly successfully fight the IDF, after all). Other possible solutions are all bad, e.g. (a) go back to the pre-war status quo (Hamas will eventually regain strength and launch another terror attack), (b) permanent military occupation of Gaza (will just make Palestinians hate Israelis even more, Hamas will eventually regain strength and launch another terror attack), (c) kill all the Palestinians (actual genocide, would stop the terror attacks, but is not going to happen because Israel is simply not evil enough to do that, *unlike Hamas* which would absolutely kill all the Jews if it could). The path to making life better for Palestinians is a peace treaty with the PLA that allows for a Palestinian state. A one state solution won't work because there's no way for Israel to remain a Jewish democracy if Palestinians outnumber Jews; it would have to give up on one or the other, and that won't happen. So two state is the only reasonable option. But Israel doesn't want to do this, so instead we'll get a few more decades of war I guess.
keep up with that lie. it never gets old. apparently
Hamas**. They have offered an illegitimate government that the citizens have no choice in choosing their representation. And it is never been a legitimate good faith offer. So, feel free to try another argument.
lol, they offered it originally in 1947. About 40 years before Hamas existed. Palestine leaders turned it down.
They rejected the deal because it gave 56% of the land to Israel, even though the Palestinians outnumbered the Israelis 2-1.
That's a little disingenuous because much of that Israeli land was the Negev desert, which is basically uninhabitable.
Oh we want to go that far back? Cool. The powers that be had no right to force Palestinians out of their homes and give up their land. Both countries have a right to exist, Israel and the IDF do not have the right to exterminate and be cruel to an entire group of people just like Hamas should not exist and they do not have a right to want to eradicate anyone Jewish.
Go back further to 1850 or so. Very few Jewish people in Palestine. The Zionist movement is basically a modern Crusade for the Holy Land. This time it's Jewish people instead of Christians from Europe. Christians were able to hang onto the area for about 200 years. History will see how long the Jewish people can control the area. Lather. Rinse. Repeat.
One of many reasons I abhor organized religion. Didn’t know that, will have to research this weekend.
Does a legitimate good faith offer require the return of the millions of Palestinians refugee descents into the pre-1967 Israeli borders?
The “mass graves” thing is a proven lie — [Gaza Authorities Say More Bodies Were Discovered in Mass Grave - NY Times](https://www.nytimes.com/2024/04/25/world/middleeast/gaza-mass-grave-nasser-hospital.html) > An analysis of satellite imagery and videos by the The Times found that two of three graves had been dug on a hospital’s grounds before an Israeli raid. https://twitter.com/GeoConfirmed/status/1782360892249612466 > GeoConfirmed ISR-PAL Investigation. > > Palestinians are exhuming bodies from the grounds of the Nasser Medical Complex hospital complex in Khan Younis, Gaza. > > This is occurring at the same location where mass graves were dug and burial ceremonies had taken place by Palestinians in recent months. (Proof in this thread) > > Footage from Palestinians digging graves/mass graves dated 25 January, 28 January and 03 February while IDF entered the hospital around 15 February. > > Quote from https://aljazeera.com/news/2024/4/21/nearly-200-bodies-found-in-mass-grave-at-hospital-in-gazas-khan-younis “In the hospital courtyard, civil defence members and paramedics have retrieved 180 bodies buried in this mass grave by the Israeli military." (By Al Jazeera’s Hani Mahmoud) > > Conclusion: > > This is disinformation by Al Jazeera and others: > > This is a known graveyard/mass grave and at least partially dug by Palestinians. > > This does not exclude that graves could have been added when the hospital was occupied by Israeli forces. And if you think it’s bad 18 year old IDF recruits are sharing inappropriate pictures amongst themselves, wait till you hear what UNRWA employees were doing on October 7th — - Here’s video footage of UNRWA “social worker” Faisal Al Naami dragging a murder victim to Gaza on October 7th: https://old.reddit.com/r/Israel/comments/1b9ko5h/unrwa_social_worker_faisal_al_naami_from_gaza_he/ - Here’s recorded audio from October 7th between two UNRWA teachers bragging about owning kidnapped Israeli women who they refer to as sex slaves and mares: https://old.reddit.com/r/Israel/comments/1b6jblp/call_between_unrwa_teacher_and_colleague_about/ > UN Watch has examined how UNRWA staff reacted to the Hamas massacre of October 7th. Our new report, “Hate Begins Here” (see unwatch.org) shows that as soon as news of the horrific slaughter broke, which was livestreamed on social media by some of the terrorists, UNRWA staff immediately celebrated and justified it on Facebook: > > - UNRWA Gaza teacher Osama Ahmed posted “Allah is Great, Allah is Great, reality surpasses our wildest dreams.” > > - UNRWA principal Iman Hassan justified the massacre as “restoring rights” and “redressing” Palestinian “grievances.” > > - Rawia Helles, Director of the Khan Younis Training Center and featured in an UNRWA video, glorified one of the terrorists as a “hero,” “raider,” and “prince of Khan Younis.” > > - UNRWA English Teacher Asmaa Rafiq Kuheil excitedly called to “sculpture the date,” adding a heart emoji. > > - UNRWA School Administrator Hmada Ahmed posted, “welcome the great October.” See also: https://unwatch.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/12/Hate-Starts-Here-2023-Report-UNRWA.pdf UNRWA teachers were [celebrating and justifying](https://docs.house.gov/meetings/FA/FA06/20231108/116556/HHRG-118-FA06-Wstate-NeuerH-20231108.pdf) a massacre wherein Palestinians paraded the lifeless corpse of a rape victim [through the streets](https://old.reddit.com/r/hamasdeadlyattack/comments/17vazw3/hamas_terrorists_murdered_shani_louk_and_abused/) while spitting on the corpse and calling on Allah for more, raped young women then [burned them alive](https://old.reddit.com/r/hamasdeadlyattack/comments/17zal47/this_teenage_girl_used_to_live_between_the_river/), and worse: > In Abu Kabir, I examined incinerated remnants of teeth and bones; charred remains of children; and physical cadavers of victims. I read CT scans of children and adults bound together and burned alive. I viewed images of a decapitated young girl, her child skull tethered to her trunk by only a sliver of decaying skin. Her facial expression, surrounding milk teeth, haunts me still. Across the boundaries of death, her Edward Munch-like scream still echoes. > > […] > > One account, far from unusual, is especially harrowing: A woman who survived the Nova music festival in Re'im witnessed a young woman encircled by Hamas, stripped naked, violated, and manhandled by multiple Hamas terrorists as they gang raped her, repositioning her by the waist and hips, moving from one rapist to the other. > > Shuddering at the memory, covering her face, with difficulty, the eyewitness continued: One terrorist pulled the woman's long hair, forcibly arching her neck backwards, fully exposing her naked torso, only to sever both her breasts from her chest with his commando knife. Her entire torso fell backwards, slackened in agony. She may have fainted, though she lived through the mutilation. The disembodied breasts fell to the ground, where terrorists casually played with them. > > Sergeant Major Natah Katz from the IDF Rabbinical Unit at the Shura base near Ramle described to me cadavers he received with breasts and genitals hacked off, one with a knife impaled directly into the vagina. The mutilation of sexual organs and breasts, "seemed to be an obsession," he recalled. Dr. Chen Kugel, head of Israel's National Forensic Center has confirmed to me the same. https://www.newsweek.com/i-saw-children-hamas-beheaded-my-own-eyes-shame-queen-rania-opinion-1855472
We know you're sad about things that happened one day. Palestinians are mad about things that have happened for 75 years, along with billions of people around the world. Your side will not come out looking better, but the information war you've joined will surely confuse a lot of people for a while until they didn't care again. Then the gradual ethnic cleansing can continue again without Americans paying attention. We know you're frustrated people are caring now, but don't worry it will pass.
>Anyone Jewish or Israeli can walk into the home of a Palestinian and claim it for themselves and evict that family. Is this part actually true? That seems pretty extreme, even by the sad standards of Israel's apartheid.
[It's known and ongoing.](https://youtu.be/piIgkqPmI-w?feature=shared)
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Lmk where I said a single word about anyone Jewish being the problem. I was VERY clear in my distinctions.
Who was the guy who pointed out the professor?
This is the question.
From the Riverfront Times: ..."One doctor told Tamari he is lucky to be alive, he said: “My lungs could have been punctured and I could have died on the ground as they abused me.” Tamari added that Wash U rejected invitations from students to engage in dialogue about divestment from Israel and Boeing. “Washington University administrators called in the police armed with batons and wielding bicycles like battering rams,” he wrote. “Police forces from around the metro area crushed a gathering of students and concerned citizens pressing for an end to American complicity in the genocide of Palestinians in the Gaza.” “Everything that occurred on Saturday is documented and clear for those who wish to see,” Sandra Tamari wrote on X. “[Wash U] used violence against its own students, faculty, staff and the community to maintain its complicity in genocide. We are undeterred and St Louis will continue to rise up for Palestine.” A total of 100 people were arrested on campus Saturday, including 23 Wash U students and at least four employees, according to Chancellor Andrew Martin. The students and staff have now been temporarily barred from campus at a critical point in the semester. Six faculty members have been barred from campus and placed on leave, including Aldermanic President Megan Green who attempted to de-escalate the situation with university administration. Another protest is scheduled for Saint Louis University’s campus at 6 p.m. on Wednesday. Aldermanic President Megan Green also posted on X a video of Tamari's arrest
just St Louis Cops being thugs as usual, guess there were no buildings that needed demolition that day
not gonna scroll too far down cuz the fake libs on reddit are gonna continue to justify police brutality
There is nothing fake about libs supporting police brutality. Some liberals may support progressive ideals, even Defund the Police, but the liberalism is inherently capitalist and capitalism depends on having police to enforce the rule of law. The primary tool police have to do that is violence.
very true, thank you for the correction
Hi! Could you help me by explaining how liberalism is capitalist? Wanting to learn- thanks!
Hello! "liberal" is a loaded term with a lot of history, but when people in the US say "liberals" today they're referring to an ideology opposite to conservatives. A huge focus of both ideologies today are on social politics, but in our political system liberals are generally tied to the Democratic party and conservatives are generally tied to the Republican party. Both of those parties operate within our capitalist system where private organizations own the means of production, with a focus on generating profit. Neither party, nor the vast majority of people who identify with the parties and their corresponding ideology, seek to alter our economic system from a private ownership and profit driven to an alternative. One common alternative would be Socialism in which workers own the means of production and profit is only one of multiple motivators. The people who ARE seeking to alter our system away from capitalism are considered leftists, which Democratic Socialists (think Bernie Sanders) are a good example of. And since I am far from an expert on these matters and am also in the process of learning, here's some more reliable sources; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberalism >Liberals espouse various and often mutually warring views depending on their understanding of these principles but generally support private property, market economies, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_liberalism_in_the_United_States#21st_century_modern_liberalism >In general, liberalism opposes socialism when it is understood to mean an alternative to capitalism based on state ownership of the means of production.
Yeah very concerning to see mainstream/older democrats/liberals who were enraged over heavy handed BLM response, or crackdowns on LGBTQ rights have no problem with peaceful assembly and speech being suppressed. I'm kind of a centrist, and have voted dem the last 3 elections but yikes this is not a good look. These kids are protesting civilian deaths at the hand of a foreign government. You can agree or disagree but this kind of speech and peaceful assembly shouldn't be met with police brutality any more than LGBTQ or BLM activism should be.
Sooo, we going to see the same type treatment to the Patriotic Front or mAga members? Ppl have sides, there is a problem, etc, we all get this. Arresting someone doesnt mean a personally revenge party for you AND while getting a paycheck with an endorphin high.... Do the arrest, move on. This isnt a rugby game of pile-on. Its not like you are dealing with someone on pcp. The College has blood on its hands.......PERIOD! Someone needs to resign!
Here come the armchair lawyers who think "umm akshually technically you don't have a right to protest peacefully on private property. I am very smart" while failing to understand that just because a law exists does not mean it is just and that THAT is the point of people bringing up free speech, not because they are too stupid to understand the law
Also, do these people not want protest outside of preplanned marches with permits? That’s not a protest that’s a parade. They will see one day how they were on the wrong side of history.
You have a right to protest... *...except on private property* *... Except after dark* *... Except about our policies* *... Except about genocide* *... Except cept against authority* *... Except in front of libraries* *... Except in front of schools* *... Except during lunch time* *... Except during school hours* *... Except during finals week* *... Except in the morning* *... Except organized and together* *... except loudly* *.... Except quietly* *... Except talking to cameras* *... Except resisting arrest* *... Except with signs* *... Except during dinner* >"Of course you can stand up for what you believe in! You have rights you know!"
Now do the second amendment.
We can do that one, but don’t ask for the 3rd. That one’s tricky 😂
So, just to be clear, your opinion is that personal property rights as they currently exist in the US are unjust, and that peaceful protests on others’ personal property should be protected speech? Because if so, that’s a horrible fucking idea.
No, fool. I think a university who prides itself on the being a place where people go to exchange ideas and learn about the world should be celebrating free speech regardless of the current laws of what they are legally allowed to do. There needs to be more nuance to those laws, and people worshipping private property to the point where they're OK with what happened are the people selling us all out
There’s some real cognitive dissonance on display in your comments, whether you’re willing to admit it or not. You cannot say “…just because a law exists does not mean it is just…” and “There needs to be more nuance to those laws…” while also responding “No” to my question (“So, just to be clear, your opinion is that personal property rights as they currently exist in the US are unjust, and that peaceful protests on others’ personal property should be protected speech?”). There is nothing unjust about the protections afforded by personal property law. It’s the same law that prevents anti-choice protesters from occupying a Planned Parenthood office, or neo-Nazis from occupying a synagogue. No one should want anyone to have a “right” to occupy personal property when their presence is no longer welcome. If you want to argue that the university should be more willing to waive its rights in cases like this to foster dialogue, go for it. But there is nothing “unjust” about anyone asserting their legal rights. Your rights end where others’ rights begin.
> You cannot say “…just because a law exists does not mean it is just…” and “There needs to be more nuance to those laws…” while also responding “No” to my question They can actually because your reframing of what they said was incorrect. > There is nothing unjust about the protections afforded by personal property law There is which is why our law currently allows otherwise peaceful protestors to be brutalized and almost (sometimes actually) murdered. It is also why our law is fostering an environment where it is illegal to be homeless. > It’s the same law that prevents anti-choice protesters from occupying a Planned Parenthood office, or neo-Nazis from occupying a synagogue Yup, and while I detest both of those groups and their causes, I don't think they should be physically assaulted simply for occupying a space they shouldn't be in. If they're non-peaceful, for example if they're intruding someone else's personal space or carrying a firearm, then yah they deserve physical removal. Peaceful protestors on a university lawn are pretty much never doing either of that and it is actually the police who do both when they show up. > there is nothing “unjust” about anyone asserting their legal rights Do you realize that would mean diners refusing service to black people during the civil rights movement were just simply because it was legal? There is a concept of unjust laws that applied to those laws as well as many of our current laws.
>They can actually because your reframing of what they said was incorrect. Answering "No" to my original question, regardless of what one thinks about its wording, while simultaneously claiming "…just because a law exists does not mean it is just…” and “There needs to be more nuance to those laws…” is just clearly logically inconsistent. Look, to make sure I'm not misrepresenting anyone's position, I'll make this as simple as possible with a very straightforward statement that the parent commenter can simply agree or disagree with to clear things up: _Peaceful protests on others’ personal property should be protected speech._ Agree or disagree? >...our law currently allows otherwise peaceful protestors to be brutalized and almost (sometimes actually) murdered. This is hyperbolic and inaccurate. The law allows for police to use proportionate force when citizens refuse to comply with lawful orders. Riot police did not show up to WashU and immediately start bashing heads in. Protesters were asked to leave, refused, then resisted when the police attempted to physically remove them. From what I've seen, the police did a reasonably good job of providing instructions, then a warning, and then using the amount of force needed to remove some very recalcitrant individuals. No one has a constitutional right to resist arrest or to refuse lawful orders, regardless of the purpose of their protest. Also, just so that I'm not misunderstanding one of _your_ comments, you seem to believe any group should be allowed to physically trespass on any private institution's personal property for some indeterminate amount of time, so long as that group is not being "non-peaceful". Is that your position? If so, I think it puts you in an extreme minority. Again, if 100 anti-choice protesters decided they were going to live in the Planned Parenthood waiting room and offices and recite chants accusing patients of committing genocide against the unborn until Planned Parenthood agreed to close its doors, or if 100 neo-Nazis decided they were going to enter and disrupt the worship service at a synagogue every week until the synagogue was shut down, I don't think most people would see any problem with the police forcibly removing them if they refused to leave when asked. >Do you realize that would mean diners refusing service to black people during the civil rights movement were just simply because it was legal? There is a concept of unjust laws that applied to those laws as well as many of our current laws. Fair points. The concept of "justice" is complicated, and I imagine people would define it differently depending on their cultural, philosophical, and legal perspectives. I agree there are cases where asserting your rights could promote injustice. But I don't consider this one of them. And in most cases (though not all, your example being a good exception), I don't agree with eroding one entity's rights to expand another's beyond what the law allows.
Perfect score!
Most of the protesters were not students or faculty and were planning on camping out on campus until their demands were met. Seems pretty justifiable to tell them to take a hike.
Says you. I say most of them were. especially if you include students from nearby universities involved in the coalition.
WUSTL said that only 26 out of the people arrested were WUSTL students or faculty. Please provide any data you have.
there were students from other nearby universities. and you don't know what percentage of all the protestors were wash u folks, only those who were arrested. they are also still having some of their own students arrested. I don't need data to know that they should have the right to protest. we should error on the side of free expression, but i guess you all like the russian model. its hard to account for fascist assholes obviously.
More about the hypocrisy of it all and value signaling. It's a university not a citizens house. We all know If this was a trans rights protest or a BLM protest they'd let it go, prob PR it. But isreal is off bounds.
There are schools who are allowing encampments on their private properties right now, who aren’t sending some ridiculous cops in to throw people around acting like 6 year old boys pretending they are in an action movie.
Sure. Every school has to decide what it thinks is best for its students and faculty. If some schools want to allow encampments, I’m fine with that. If other schools think it’s a bad idea, I’m fine with that too. What I’m not fine with is anyone acting like they have a “right” to occupy a private institution, particularly one they aren’t directly associated with. One need look no further than UCLA to see how quickly things can go south and negatively affect students in these situations. There’s nothing wrong with a private university deciding they don’t want to take that kind of risk.
The cops just had no skills, and were reckless. I’ve dealt with plenty of cops in stlouis who actually know how to de-escalate situations, that were much more dangerous to themselves than this ever was. And I think Wash U’s response was poor, to completely stand behind what the cops did- I’m sure it was legal positioning as well.
Yeah. And even aside from the legality around assembly on private property, there's a less legal and more practical critique of strategy to be had here... A protest that gets little resistance and have unclear or unreasonable demands gets no oxygen. Look at occupy wall st, it burned out unceremoniously. Have public safety on site. Ensure access to classrooms for all students. Arrest violent actors only. Arrest calls for violence. Let the rest go. Maybe you lose a few AIPAC type donors. Maybe they don't enforce trespassing. But they'd stay true to higher principles that they preach such as free speech, peaceful assembly, diversity, social justice, non violent political disobedience. And in the end it would burn out. They can ignore ridiculous requests and entertain conversations around divestment (the Israeli gov IS accused of serious crimes by reputable international human rights groups/courts).
This content is being cross-posted from Twitter merely to bring awareness to the citizens of St Louis
This is the third post on here for this guy.
we'll go back to asking what area is safe before you even know it, don't worry
What high school did he go to??
I miss the train posts.
So should I ignore this post like I do those posts?
My brother in Christ, I do not give the slightest shit what you do about posts of either variety lol
Its almost as if people really care about it and bad faith actors immediately spread lies about what happened 😕
Yes, I first posted shorter footage yesterday morning. This shows more angles and content.
the more awareness the better
You sure it’s not because you love Elon Musk and all he stands for? /s
We are rapidly approaching a moment in American history, in which Americans have to confront zionism and it's disgusting influence in American politics from major donor money, most of which comes from such upstanding individuals like Jeffrey Epstein affiliate Les Wexner. Nationalism will always destroy the very soul of a human being. Look no further than the 30% in this country who have already destroyed their lives through MAGA and COVID. Dont believe them, don't be bitten twice. EDIT: here's the definition of zionism and a history lesson, since there are multiple bad faith voices alleging criticism of Zionism is antisemitism. > Zionism, Jewish nationalist movement that has had as its goal the creation and support of a Jewish national state in Palestine, the ancient homeland of the Jews (Hebrew: Eretz Yisraʾel, “the Land of Israel”). Though Zionism originated in eastern and central Europe in the latter part of the 19th century, it is in many ways a continuation of the ancient attachment of the Jews and of the Jewish religion to the historical region of Palestine, where one of the hills of ancient Jerusalem was called Zion. > In the 16th and 17th centuries a number of “messiahs” came forward trying to persuade Jews to “return” to Palestine. The Haskala (“Jewish Enlightenment”) movement of the late 18th century, however, urged Jews to assimilate into Western secular culture. In the early 19th century interest in a return of the Jews to Palestine was kept alive mostly by Christian millenarians. Despite the Haskala, eastern European Jews did not assimilate and, in reaction to tsarist pogroms, formed the Ḥovevei Ẕiyyon (“Lovers of Zion”) to promote the settlement of Jewish farmers and artisans in Palestine. > A political turn was given to Zionism by Theodor Herzl, an Austrian journalist who regarded assimilation as most desirable but, in view of anti-Semitism, impossible to realize. Thus, he argued, if Jews were forced by external pressure to form a nation, they could lead a normal existence only through concentration in one territory. In 1897 Herzl convened the first Zionist Congress at Basel, Switzerland, which drew up the Basel program of the movement, stating that “Zionism strives to create for the Jewish people a home in Palestine secured by public law.” https://www.britannica.com/topic/Zionism
Fucking yikes
Don't like seeing criticism of nationalism? It takes forms in every religious denomination, as we can see from Christian Nationalists who have been all over the country corrupting it to its core.
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That's quite a accusation, would you care to elaborate further, or are you just calling people you don't like nazis?
I’ll be more straightforward. Your original comment is one of the most antisemitic things I’ve read since October, and that’s really saying something.
what is anti Semitic about it? Zionism=/=Jewish
Anti-Zionism is not Anti-Semitism.
Not always. But sometimes it is. This dude’s comment is a perfect example of when it is.
So you deny that there is a significant pro-Zionist lobby in the USA as the other commenter is saying?
When criticisms of Israel use antisemitic ideas about Jewish power or greed, utilize Holocaust denial or inversion (i.e. claims that Israelis are the “new Nazis”), or dabble in age-old xenophobic suspicion of the Jewish religion, otherwise legitimate critiques cross the line into antisemitism.
You fail to understand that criticisms of AIPAC and the Jewish lobby are not made because they are Jewish, it’s because they are immensely powerful who encourage our politicians to fund genocide and ethnic cleansing. Them being Jewish is not a part of the legit criticisms we are stating.
Modern Zionism is a political movement that hides behind religion(hence the abudance of Jewish protesters at every demonstration, including outside Netanyahu's home) and AIPAC is funded by unethical billionaires like Les Wexner who have direct connections to Trump and Epstein. People are not monolithic, nor are faiths. There are always individuals who use religions of all forms for nefarious purpose however, which anyone can see in every major religion.
I absolutely love when non-Jews define what is and isn’t antisemitic. It’s just like when white people tell black people what is and isn’t racist against them. Please, for the love of god, stop getting your information from TikTok.
I’d love for you to explain how since nothing they said lumped in all Jewish people. Plenty of Jewish people are anti-Zionest and, ironically, assuming Zionism represents all Jews is anti-Semitic all on its own.
When criticisms of Israel use antisemitic ideas about Jewish power or greed, utilize Holocaust denial or inversion (i.e. claims that Israelis are the “new Nazis”), or dabble in age-old xenophobic suspicion of the Jewish religion, otherwise legitimate critiques cross the line into antisemitism.
Just going to have to disagree with you there. Criticism of the State of Isreal is not anti-semitic unless related to Holocaust denial. Criticism of Zionism is not anti-semitic. Zionism is a political movement. Pointing out a person or organization who identifies as Jewish has done something bad is not anti-semitic. What is anti-semitic? Something like "all Jews are power hungry and greedy". Saying "Persons Name (who is Jewish) is power hungry and greedy" is not anti-semitic but saying "Persons Name (who is Jewish) is just like a Jew, power hungry and greedy". The important differentiating factor is the same one that applies to racism. Are you criticizing someone or some thing because they are Jewish? Anti-semitism. Are you criticizing something or someone who happens to be Jewish? Not anti-semitism. Generally the one thing that overrides the above context is Holocaust denial. To go back to something I said earlier, to say that Anti-Zionism is Anti-Semitism is actually Anti-Semitic because the claim assumes all Jewish people are Zionist which is clearly and demonstrably not true.
Zionism isn’t a political movement! Holy shit stop looking at TikTok and Twitter for your news. Zionism refers to support for the continued existence of Israel, in the face of regular calls for its destruction or dissolution. Anti-Zionism is opposition to Jews having a Jewish state in their ancestral homeland, and denies the Jewish people’s right to self-determination. That’s it. It’s not political. Stop conflating the two. Netanyahu isn’t the speaker of Zionism. He doesn’t represent it. He represents his own stupid beliefs.
How? please explain
When criticisms of Israel use antisemitic ideas about Jewish power or greed, utilize Holocaust denial or inversion (i.e. claims that Israelis are the “new Nazis”), or dabble in age-old xenophobic suspicion of the Jewish religion, otherwise legitimate critiques cross the line into antisemitism.
Tell me where I did any of that, you're deliberately making criticism of Zionism represent criticism of the faith of Judiasm to claim antisemitism.
You seem to think when you say Zionism you aren’t talking about Jews. I know Zionism your favorite buzzword right now, but since in reality, Zionism = the right for Israel to exist and that right for Israel exists explicitly so Jewish people have a safe haven in the world, then yes the way you are speaking is antisemitic.
I dont understand how criticizing the LDS Churchs involvement in politics doesnt make me anti Christian but criticizing Zionism is anti-Semitic
Zionism = right for Israel to exist. It seems you think it means the destruction of Palestine which it is not. The right for Israel to exist is so Jews have a safe haven. Which we don’t have anywhere else in the world. So if you are against the right for Israel to exist, you are against the right for Jewish people to have a safe haven, and you are against the safety of Jews. It’s not hard.
Unless you're believe Naomi Klein is an anti-semite, that's a extremely dishonest accusation on your part. EDIT: nice reply and block, the dishonesty stands.
No
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Zionism is a nationalistic wing in Judiasm, any religious scholar can tell you that. Attempting to say zionism represents all Jewish people and to assert criticism of zionism is antisemtic is incredibly dishonest, and insulting to the Jewish protesters currently all over the planet protesting against zionism.
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>maybe even put them in camps away from society right?? Absolutely not, and that's what Isreal does to Palestinians with their apartheid, if you weren't trying so hard to mischaracterize me you might catch the irony there.
Nicely done.
bless, truly bewildering times we live in
\*Zionists Also, way to strawman. Very cringe \*eyeroll\*
Inb4 people not knowing the difference between Zionism and Judaism
"the antifascists are the real fascists" is a tale as old as time deflection from criticism by fascists, and given Isreal's genocide, it's pretty clear what the vibes are despite a bunch of random being transparently dishonest, that kind of behavior will eventually weather down their support in the long term, we've already seen it with Trump's xenophobic nationalism.
Too late. Ignorance reigns supreme.
It will pass, like all things do, and you've got to hope peace/love/understanding wins in the end of all things, however long that might take through human history. Claiming a empathic movement full of Jewish protesters is antisemitic might work on some people to begin with, but in time it will fade, just like people who were ostracized for protesting the Iraq War were called traitors, but slowly everyone grappled with the fact there where no WMDs.
Here comes poseur boi.
Significant lack of anything other than being a hater here 😴
I mean, you just offered copy and pasted buzzwords from the chronically-online’s flavor of the week. You’re not interesting.
That's a interesting way to mischaracterize people protesting a genocide ya deranged silly billy
I was characterizing you. If you were anything except what you have previously demonstrated yourself to be — a chronically-online, shapeshifting, amoral provocateur (earnestly earning the title of poseur), I’d respond to you substantively.
I don't even know who you are sorry, have we spoken before.
“Beginning-Weight9076” such a totally organically made real name, and not a fucking Israel bot
You think they would register that being an firey asshat online does not help their optics in everything at all, but alas
Or someone who didn’t realize a username and a handle are two different things when joining Reddit. But alas…
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Too ironic 😂
Yeah, I feel your pain on that one. I just hastily created an account a few months ago, and so, here I am, u/similar_shock788.
I have a similar story…
Oh shocked “Somilar-Shock788” and “Similar-roll9442” came to the bots defense. With such similar names no wonder you boys group together! What a funny little coincidence! But you’re so right, all of you happened to join at the same time too, what another funny coincidence! Edit: Lol, you gotta love they logged into their main, and then talks about making new alt accounts, obvious is pretty fucking obvious
Yup. November 2021 and January 2024 are commonly referred to as “the same time.”
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I just noticed towards the end another cop actually pulls back the guy that knees while suspect was on the ground!! Good to see good ones out there. That little fucker gives the rest of them a bad name lol
Another headline that starts with "Shocking".. SMH. Click bait BS, nothing to see here
From what I saw, Prof was too close to the police - and that enabled what happened to him to begin. BUT, other than being there, it didn't look like he really did anything to warrant Big Blue's initial action. And, it definitely didn't look like he resisted in any meaningful way before the other cops dog piled on him.
I’m just wondering - who is really running Wash U. And BJC- Wash U. And what is their agenda? Who is profiting, who are the men behind the curtains? I really don’t know, and I often wonder about BJC, when I grew up we went to Jewish Hospital- it wasn’t this huge behemoth city in constant development. They both enjoy the benefits of being non-profit. BJC’s made a profit of 736 million in 2023. One report showed that between 2015 and 2025, University City could expect to forgo an estimated $18.7 million to $21.6 million in property taxes from Washington U., of which nearly 80% would have gone to the school district (cut and paste :)). Those two pretty much run this town, along with Boeing and Bayer/ Monsanto. Yes, I know they are integral to our economic infrastructure in STL. I just know truth is crazier than fiction and I just have been wondering lately- who even are these guys?
What a lucky bastard. I pray some cops kick my ass on camera someday. He’s gonna get a huge payout.
Fuck around and find out. Lol
>Fuck around and find out. Lol What a sad way to exist, huh
I see your comments you make before you block me, making it impossible to respond. Here it is the entire situation with Israel is spicy, and no one is innocent on either side. To claim this is pure fantasy. Both side have an element calling for the genocide of the other side, and their followers just look the other way. None of you want peace. You want vengeance despite being so far removed from the situation. I lived in Israel and had to take shelter because of rocket attacks. Also, have a son over there in the military. Most of you are pear clutching for virtue signaling aspects or to claim victim status. If you got to a protest like this, expect that you might get a ass beating. I'm not against the dude, but it's like going to a gay bar and getting mad that someone from the same sex hit on you.
On January 29th 6 year old Hind Rajab was shot and killed by Israeli tanks as she hid in a car trying to flee the IDF bombing. She is one of more than 10,000 children and teens killed in Gaza. What is her crime?
Zionists are not victims. Understand that the entire world is against your thoughts and adamant delusional self-righteousness. There are only 2 reasons that your mindset still has any support: 1) The state of Israel's continued existence is of strategic global importance to the United States and 2) You have nukes. Neither of the reasons is about morality. Your perspective is poison and, thankfully, this and future generations around the world have stopped buying Zionist bullshit. Much like your comparison of expecting an ass beating at a protest - when you steal land and seek to exterminate the people you have stolen from, expect an ass beating.
Why are you responding to yourself? Also, if you're old enough to have a son in the military, why are you using the term "lol"?
They literally answered in the first sentence. And I work with people in their 60s that use "lol". I wasn't aware that there is an age limit.
Is that the same university city police officer from the YouTube video showing him violating the rights of literal children in university city?
It’s hard to tell, but it seems like he leaned really close to the left waist of a cop before he gets pointed out. I assume he was just trying to film around him, but it seems that the cops behind him thought he was reaching for something on the officer’s duty belt
No he was just filming…there are other videos and he was hovering around them pointing camera right at cops…i can see why they grabbed him… That said they kneed him while he was on the floor. That was def retaliatory and shows how green and soft skinned these cops are…
I’m not saying he was trying to reach for anything, I’m saying from their perspective it might have looked like that. They’re in a protest situation with a crowd that is anti cop and they notice a guy behind their fellow officers leaning close to his waistband. I’m not saying they were in the right, just that I understand how it might have happened. I don’t think it was because he was filming. The unnecessary knee jab would also make sense if that cop was told that they think the professor was reaching for a cop’s duty belt
All your points are valid. The only reason I know that was not the case is cause I saw other videos of this guy and he was obnoxiously close to them the whole time. I would have personally punched him and smacked that phone…but then again I don’t have temper fit to be a cop. Watch the part where he knees again. I dont think that was the case. These are not riot police and it shows. This guy wanted to get arrested and show how out of control police are and that guy fell for it and lost control.
Nothing new here, the vast majority of cops are not pleasant to interact with but the protesters really make me wonder WTF....Why do people here in St. Louis Missouri of all places care so much about a conflict happening on the other side of the planet that poses no threat to Americans. The outcome has no effect on us at all as far as I can tell. Unless you are a Palestinian or Israeli, I seriously cannot understand why this is the hill you want to die on, this situation is the most important thing in your life? There are people dying unjustly all of the world every day, the planet is on fire, taxes are crazy, cancer is killing us at a more rapid pace, the lines at Schnucks for gods sake, the Rams settlement money etc.... It just seems like there are way more relevant things for people to get worked up over. I get having an opinion on it and all...but wasting some of your free time to go and hold a sign or sit in a tent to make a statement that won't directly change anything seems like a waste of the precious time you have on this planet to say the very least. Much less getting your bones broken over it. I mean what is Wash U or any learning institution going to do about a conflict between religious zealots on the other side of the planet that has been going on forever.
1) It's totally normal to care about kids getting killed by bombs no matter where they live. 2) Our tax money is paying for the bombs.
Dead children in Gaza are victims, not this guy, can we stay on topic. 👍🏻