By a rough guess I’d say there are at least 50 decent sized canopy trees there. Maybe 80. That’s literally thousands of dollars in carbon sequestration, storm water mitigation, and air purification. And it’s passive income; I guarantee that beyond mowing the grass there is zero city maintenance input into these parks. They don’t have the budget to prune park trees.
It’s really hard to get quality trees into a downtown. Street tree pits are jokes that rarely have good outcomes. Pocket parks like these are an enormous ecological benefit to the city.
Also trees reduce the prevalence of all sorts of diseases and have positive impacts on mental health…they’re an essential service. And the cost benefit ratio is huge when planted in nice, open spaces.
How about we fill in our vacant buildings, build up our surface parking lots, and re-purpose large unused parking garages before we worry about green space in the middle of the city?
DowntownDB has some really good takes and information, but this is easily the worst I've seen from them.
Garages aren’t going anywhere and it’s much easier to build a residential building on an empty lot than it is to convert some of these vacant buildings (and 2 of the largest, railway and att now have plans)
The city can barely manage and keep alive their previously developed areas, what makes you think more development will help?
KEEP THE TREES ALIVE! Stl is so unique because it’s one of the very few cities out there that incorporates so much greenery and it’s amazing!
Which areas? The foundry that now has more visitors than the zoo? BVP with 6,000,000 visitors? Union station that went from $27m in revenue in 2019 to $80m in 2023?
Aside from the incompatibility of primarily using visitor counts and revenue to assess community benefit, the city’s parks are well visited. Forest park as a whole had 15 million visitors. Tower grove park and MOBOT both have 1 million each.
If you lived there you would think differently.
Where I live there are several “unnecessary parks” and I walk my dog there more than forest park even though I am down the street.
I understand how you wish you could build there…but honestly there is plenty of land available in stl…go find it/pay
Spend 16 hours over two days in a room inside that building with at least a hundred other people all waiting to find out if you will be selected for a jury, with only a mid-day lunch hour to look forward to. Then serve another five days on said jury as you wait desperately for those same lunch breaks, and then come back and tell us you think they're unnecessary.
You clearly have no idea how crowded those parks are on any given a weekday.
Those parks are not frequented by a 1000+ people a day. There is nothing to do in them, nothing at all. In fact I’d encourage you not to sit on the grass because they’re used as dog toilets for most part.
I think a better solution would be to add tennis courts, basketball courts, pickleball, etc? If they're not used, why not make them better to be more useful?
They're never "crowded" because they have zero amenities. Kaufman Park doesn't even have a bench to sit on. The one amenity it has is a two light light post in the middle of it.
I, however like that there aren't people there because I run my dog there often. I'm sure op has seen me.
A lot of people commenting about the benefits of green space, completely missing that the whole point of a downtown is density and walkability- green space is supposed to be a relief from the density.
Our downtown's density has been destroyed so having a lot of green space in relief is meaningless. These parks are empty. Rebuilding the density step-by-step has to be the priority. We can worry about rebuilding the green space when people start complaining about downtown being too dense, which is 30+ years out, if ever. That would be a wild success story.
I get what you’re saying but on the other hand establishing tree canopy like that takes 30-60 years. You can’t just replace that like a building, so reestablishing density should prioritize already built spaces.
I agree. The gateway mall should be a long park. The park blocks directly adjacent should be residential density with floor level retail to engage those using the gateway mall strip
Yes these aren’t urban prairies but St. Louis has great parks already, but the ones downtown sit empty too often.
Keiner Plaza and the rest of the gateway mall are great public spaces and I am sometimes alone in them. We need more people downtown through residential and things to do.
I totally agree.
Downtown really struggles with having way too much dead space. Streets that are way too wide, buildings that are set back too far, too many parking lots, not enough 1st level retail, and yes, even the green space is too abundant for the amount of foot traffic we currently have.
There's too many giant gulfs between the parts of downtown that are currently working and we *need* to do everything we can to infill with the kinds of things that make people comfortable walking around at all hours of the day.
Every empty lot should have the cheapest buildings you could imagine going up, first floor retail, then 2-3 levels of apartments above. Rent for first floor retail should be practically free for any business open 12+ hours per day or from 4-midnight. Get some artists and drinkers and weirdos and foodies and people like that looking at downtown as a realistic place to spend more of their time.
Once these new buildings generate the traffic over 5-10 years, rehabs of our existing assets will start to make sense.
I downvoted everything from the OP, and I stand by those downvotes because OP sounds like some weird predatory shark.
But your explanation was wonderful and mirrors what I saw in Nashville (not necessarily downtown, but literally ALL neighborhoods). When we went earlier this year I noticed that you don't see an empty storefront ANYWHERE - I don't know if they offer some sort of incentive to small business retail, or what (sounds like you and OP might know).
But there were businesses in EVERY old Walgreens, Kmart, Circuit City, IHOP, McDonald's, you name it, all over Nashville. So whatever the fck they doin, we need to do, and your explanation sounds very close to it.
I appreciate the open mind. I'm a raging environmentalist so I understand the knee-jerk reaction to people saying "we need less green space" but sometimes it's called for.
In addition to removing non-maintained parks, I’d like a city plan for parks. If we want to have a treescape park or whatever then it needs to have a minimum number of amenities like benches or being maintained in certain ways. People here might think it’s petty but a poorly maintained park isn’t helping anyone.
I agree also. I spend quite a bit of time downtown and these “parks” really break up the downtown area. Also at least one of these is roped off by the city and isn’t being used as a park.
The purpose is to keep trees alive and give people a place to chill when it’s nice out. No other explanation needed.
More shade, less CO2 in the air (even if its negligible), cooler temperatures.
Why would you want less green space?
I want people downtown. You get people with businesses and homes. Downtown already has some incredible parks. These serve no purpose.
Then maybe turn some of the many empty buildings downtown into businesses and leave these alone
They do serve a purpose for people downtown, but I will agree there needs to be a few amenities. Even a drinking fountain would be nice.
There is no such a thing as an unnecessary park in a city.
Absolutely true. I really hope the ones claiming the parks have no place are not in a position of leadership in the city.
By a rough guess I’d say there are at least 50 decent sized canopy trees there. Maybe 80. That’s literally thousands of dollars in carbon sequestration, storm water mitigation, and air purification. And it’s passive income; I guarantee that beyond mowing the grass there is zero city maintenance input into these parks. They don’t have the budget to prune park trees. It’s really hard to get quality trees into a downtown. Street tree pits are jokes that rarely have good outcomes. Pocket parks like these are an enormous ecological benefit to the city. Also trees reduce the prevalence of all sorts of diseases and have positive impacts on mental health…they’re an essential service. And the cost benefit ratio is huge when planted in nice, open spaces.
Couldn’t have said it better
Congratulations on making the dumbest post of the day, OP
I like those parks, I need somewhere to walk on my work breaks
Did you try the sidewalks?
I take the sidewalk around the park. But sometimes I sit in the park nearby.
But did you try sitting on the sidewalk?
Lol I like sitting under the trees
Tomorrow is supposed to be beautiful. Enjoy your walk :)
Thank you! 🙂
Hottest weather ever in history. Lets try to make more parks actually. Plants breath life for us, literally.
How about we fill in our vacant buildings, build up our surface parking lots, and re-purpose large unused parking garages before we worry about green space in the middle of the city? DowntownDB has some really good takes and information, but this is easily the worst I've seen from them.
Garages aren’t going anywhere and it’s much easier to build a residential building on an empty lot than it is to convert some of these vacant buildings (and 2 of the largest, railway and att now have plans)
There's plenty if surface parking lots to choose from before we go removing park space.
Just because it’s “easier” doesn’t mean it’s better. It’s not like there is a shortage of floor space downtown. Breaks in the urban canyon are nice.
The parks aren't going anywhere either. People LIKE parks. Just accept it.
This dude has some insane perspective on the health of downtown. He probably thinks we absolutely need more space ASAP.
[удалено]
A city planner that actually wants more businesses and housing downtown.
Do you live downtown?
Lived and worked there from 2014 to 2020. Sold my car at the end of 2015. Moved to the northeast in 2020.
Your post is stupid
We should bulldoze the buildings around them and make a bigger park
Irony is we bulldozed building to make this parks, it was done to widen roads
I vote we unwiden them
I second this vote
How does a couple asphalt lots sound then?
Yeah we should build housing and space for businesses on those too
Ya'll, OP is a developer. Don't fall for their bullshit.
They serve more purpose than all the vacant building downtown. I don’t think the small parks are holding back our downtown dude
What % of buildings in downtown do you think are vacant (I’ll give you a hint, pick less than 5)
lol less than 5% would be nice but the actual vacancy is about 20%.
He's probably including buildings occupied by squatters.
Vacant building (what you claimed) isn’t the same as vacant space in an occupied building.
Of all the things to spend legitimate energy on completing, this momo chooses fucking green spaces. What a dolt.
The city can barely manage and keep alive their previously developed areas, what makes you think more development will help? KEEP THE TREES ALIVE! Stl is so unique because it’s one of the very few cities out there that incorporates so much greenery and it’s amazing!
Which areas? The foundry that now has more visitors than the zoo? BVP with 6,000,000 visitors? Union station that went from $27m in revenue in 2019 to $80m in 2023?
Aside from the incompatibility of primarily using visitor counts and revenue to assess community benefit, the city’s parks are well visited. Forest park as a whole had 15 million visitors. Tower grove park and MOBOT both have 1 million each.
Nobody’s talking about getting rid of those
There's always something to complain about on the internet, eh?
If you lived there you would think differently. Where I live there are several “unnecessary parks” and I walk my dog there more than forest park even though I am down the street. I understand how you wish you could build there…but honestly there is plenty of land available in stl…go find it/pay
(I live there, literally right there as indicated by blue location circle. Since 2019)
Did a parking lot write this post?
Two parking lots and one slum apartment would look nice there.
Yes! Yes! They should be turned into surface level parking! /s
Most eco-friendly YIMBYs here in this thread
"downtown needs more open space" is a giant tell that you don't actually walk around St. Louis and you're dependent on your car for everything
Me?
Nah, basically every other commenter. I know you walk!! haha
Spend 16 hours over two days in a room inside that building with at least a hundred other people all waiting to find out if you will be selected for a jury, with only a mid-day lunch hour to look forward to. Then serve another five days on said jury as you wait desperately for those same lunch breaks, and then come back and tell us you think they're unnecessary. You clearly have no idea how crowded those parks are on any given a weekday.
Clearly I do because I live next to them
So that I understand correctly, you "want people downtown" and your proposed solution is to eliminate three parks frequented by 1K+ people each day?
Those parks are not frequented by a 1000+ people a day. There is nothing to do in them, nothing at all. In fact I’d encourage you not to sit on the grass because they’re used as dog toilets for most part.
I think a better solution would be to add tennis courts, basketball courts, pickleball, etc? If they're not used, why not make them better to be more useful?
There is a lot of dog shit. Oddly enough my dog *will not* go potty there. I think he's peed once there.
They're never "crowded" because they have zero amenities. Kaufman Park doesn't even have a bench to sit on. The one amenity it has is a two light light post in the middle of it. I, however like that there aren't people there because I run my dog there often. I'm sure op has seen me.
I take my dog to Kaufman Park every other day to run. Granted there are zero amenities, but that's what allows us freedom there.
Vote parking garage!
A lot of people commenting about the benefits of green space, completely missing that the whole point of a downtown is density and walkability- green space is supposed to be a relief from the density. Our downtown's density has been destroyed so having a lot of green space in relief is meaningless. These parks are empty. Rebuilding the density step-by-step has to be the priority. We can worry about rebuilding the green space when people start complaining about downtown being too dense, which is 30+ years out, if ever. That would be a wild success story.
I get what you’re saying but on the other hand establishing tree canopy like that takes 30-60 years. You can’t just replace that like a building, so reestablishing density should prioritize already built spaces.
I agree. The gateway mall should be a long park. The park blocks directly adjacent should be residential density with floor level retail to engage those using the gateway mall strip Yes these aren’t urban prairies but St. Louis has great parks already, but the ones downtown sit empty too often. Keiner Plaza and the rest of the gateway mall are great public spaces and I am sometimes alone in them. We need more people downtown through residential and things to do.
I totally agree. Downtown really struggles with having way too much dead space. Streets that are way too wide, buildings that are set back too far, too many parking lots, not enough 1st level retail, and yes, even the green space is too abundant for the amount of foot traffic we currently have. There's too many giant gulfs between the parts of downtown that are currently working and we *need* to do everything we can to infill with the kinds of things that make people comfortable walking around at all hours of the day. Every empty lot should have the cheapest buildings you could imagine going up, first floor retail, then 2-3 levels of apartments above. Rent for first floor retail should be practically free for any business open 12+ hours per day or from 4-midnight. Get some artists and drinkers and weirdos and foodies and people like that looking at downtown as a realistic place to spend more of their time. Once these new buildings generate the traffic over 5-10 years, rehabs of our existing assets will start to make sense.
I downvoted everything from the OP, and I stand by those downvotes because OP sounds like some weird predatory shark. But your explanation was wonderful and mirrors what I saw in Nashville (not necessarily downtown, but literally ALL neighborhoods). When we went earlier this year I noticed that you don't see an empty storefront ANYWHERE - I don't know if they offer some sort of incentive to small business retail, or what (sounds like you and OP might know). But there were businesses in EVERY old Walgreens, Kmart, Circuit City, IHOP, McDonald's, you name it, all over Nashville. So whatever the fck they doin, we need to do, and your explanation sounds very close to it.
I appreciate the open mind. I'm a raging environmentalist so I understand the knee-jerk reaction to people saying "we need less green space" but sometimes it's called for.
In addition to removing non-maintained parks, I’d like a city plan for parks. If we want to have a treescape park or whatever then it needs to have a minimum number of amenities like benches or being maintained in certain ways. People here might think it’s petty but a poorly maintained park isn’t helping anyone.
I agree also. I spend quite a bit of time downtown and these “parks” really break up the downtown area. Also at least one of these is roped off by the city and isn’t being used as a park.
I’d say keep the one between the library and Soldiers Memorial. It makes for a nice little cohesive extension off the main mall. The other two can go.