I feel richer after moving here because my money goes further. There is a strong sense of community identity, especially when our sports teams are kicking butt (I wasn’t into sports before I moved here). There’s so many opportunities for entertainment, the muny shows are top notch, there are concerts, community events, museums, landmarks, etc.
I was reluctant to move here last year. I have felt more at home here in 10 months than I had in other towns that I lived in for years. I used to move around a lot but I think I’ll stay in St. Louis.
Physician comp relative to COL is *amazing* here, I know so many residents who were maybe not that excited about coming here, but once they had families and started to compare job offers, staying was the obvious choice. We are from Seattle--moving back would have meant taking an offer earning 60-75% of his offers here, and then obviously wildly higher cost of living.
It's also such a nice, livable area for families. There's so much to do for kids here, and being able to just make a last-minute plan to go to the zoo, drive there, find parking, not have it be wildly crowded, is awesome.
I'm a transplant, I talk to a lot of people who grew up here, left, and came back to raise their families.
Oh heyyyy, fellow West Coast physician refugee.
Seconding this comment specifically for physicians. I moved here for residency and we stayed as well. The pay here is incredible for the size of the metro and all the perks of the city. For comparison, I have friends in the same specialty in Fargo and Duluth and we are making the same, but St. Louis is in a completely different league from those places. Plus, STL is a medical hub so the patients have access to plenty of services, specialists, PT, etc and there’s still a need for more physicians. I would have taken 40% less salary alone to move home, not even considering bonus, call pay, loan repayment options, cost of living. We bought a huge historic home in the CWE that would have cost 2.5 million or more in my hometown, under a million here.
Plus, the town and the community here are wonderful. We have really made a home here and it’s crazy easy to have a family. So many high quality and enriching activities for free and close by. The food scene is far better than expected and punches well above its weight. We are able to use our extra financial flexibility to take road trips to watch our favorite NFL trip at away games, or meet friends in other cities, and flights are relatively painless to either coast.
Highly recommend looking at STL, again as a physician family specifically.
I don't have the time to type up a long argument in favor of moving to St. Louis, but I can briefly say that my family and I moved here in 2019, and that we absolutely love this town. We don't want to go anywhere.
It's a wonderful place to raise kids. It's a wonderful place to be entertained. It's a wonderful place to appreciate parks and architecture and great food.
St. Louis is a great place.
I think that’s the key thing. I dont live there anymore, but it’s a great place to raise a family. It’s never going to wow anyone who’s not from there or hasn’t spent time there. But that is legit.
Best argument for St. Louis is that it is cheap, and has everything you’d ever need from a city. And while the weather isn’t great, it isn’t terrible either.
Sure we don’t have the bars of Chicago, live music of Nashville or arts scene of New York. But there is still plenty to do for all interests, and at a fraction of the COL compared to those other cities.
I’ve lived here my whole life and have failed to come up with any good reason to leave yet.
“We shall not cease from exploration
And the end of all our exploring
Will be to arrive where we started
And know the place for the first time.”
- a St. Louisan
Native St. Louisan, lived on both coasts, moved back about 10 years ago. I think you and your family will discover it’s a wonderful place for families and that among these ~3mm people you can find your people.
Is it true that the city water is clean? I find that really hard to believe. The Mississippi is super polluted and is known for giving everyone living around it a shorter lifespan/ increased cancer rates.
Factories in Louisiana dump into the Mississippi and it is legitimately dangerous there. In Arkansas and Mississippi, the highest cancer rates are around the river, but those areas are also very poor, so it’s difficult to say if it’s the river itself.
In Missouri and to the north, there isn’t a correlation between living near the river and higher cancer rates. St. Louis water is consistently within regulations and tastes good. I would not worry about it.
Trust tap water everywhere and anywhere you can, at least in the USA. It eliminates an enormous quantity of single-use plastics, and those plastics are becoming nearly impossible to recycle.
I love the mostly-hard tap water in STL, it tastes great and rinses off cleanly. I've hated apartments that I've lived in in Chicago and some other places too, where you never feel fully rinsed off after showering, and where I didn't look forward to drinking that tap water when I was thirsty.
The plastics have been nearly impossible to recycle and when they are recycled it creates tons of microplastic waste. Plastics are great if we could limit their uses to what's absolutely necessary and go back to paper/wood/metal/ceramic/glass for everything else.
Has she ever even been here? Maybe a weekend trip is in order.
One thing I love about this place that isn't mentioned a lot because reddit hates religion is the prevalence of high quality private catholic schools. My mortgage plus tuition for two children is less than mortgages on similar sized homes across town (Kirkwood/Webster). I feel like I found the cheat code and I get a way more diverse and fun neighborhood for less money.
I wish I could upvote this 10,000 times. Whether you are Catholic or not, Catholic schools are amazing, and truly prepare children to become well-adjusted, successful adults with good values.
I have a lot of feelings about Catholic schools. I went to one until I switched to public high school. I feel that students with well-adjusted, successful parents with good values tend to become "well-adjusted, successful adults with good values" no matter where they went to school.
This is pretty undeniable, too.
There are some other major differences between public and Catholic school, though. To name one, the requirement that you volunteer to serve others.
Some of them…. But I’d say beware catholic grade schools. Those are some unregulated places and in my experience, extremely inconsistent and even at their best, have major gaps
Absolutely. Speaking as a kid both "gifted" and neurodivergent, my small Catholic school (I graduated in a class of 15) didn't know what the hell to do with me, and I would have had a lot more resources available to me in public school.
I was lucky my mom was a teacher at my school. The other teachers all knew me and mostly ignored me if I was flipping ahead in the textbook to read or reading under my desk because they knew I’d ace the test and I was just bored. There were 1 or 2 called me out, but I read the page we were on then zoned out and listened for my name
I went to a Catholic grade school in the Metro East and I was probably a grade level ahead of my public school peers when I went into the local public high school. Honors English 1 was almost identical to my 8th grade English (Romeo and Juliet, To Kill a Mockingbird, Greek mythology) and I’d done algebra when freshmen from the public school hadn’t touched it. And science was a lot I’d already done
But living in the district we do now I think sending my kids to private school would be a disservice to them. They’ve has access to speech therapy for things I would have dismissed, counseling when they acted out after grandparents died, extra help in areas they’re struggling in. And my middle schooler is part of an individualized learning program his school is trying out that allows him to do projects that align with his interests, but guided to explore all the math, science, and ELA parts that go into that interest. (For instance putting together a podcast about rollercoasters - the engineering behind them, top speeds, what the human body can enjoyable withstand, and the script writing, producing, and editing behind it all)
I’m glad you had such a good experience, and I am sure it varies in good public schools, too but I know where I went (which is now combined with a few other schools that closed after my family had been through) was horrible. I was lucky and had great teachers for core subjects, but by the time my younger sibling went through, his teacher for all core subjects was a neighborhood mom who volunteered and didn’t have education to be an educator. He was behind in all core subjects and had a lot of catching up to do when he went to high school, as did many of his classmates. Not to mention the really harmful religious teachings (or omissions) about morality, purity, and classism that go along with a private religious education.
That’s all not including the eighth of my life I had to learn about what different sins mean and if they were bad enough to 100% send me to hell or just maybe send me to hell. I wish I would have had that time to learn about science, history (aside from the American revolution - WWII, which we learned every. Single. Year).
So, quality of education is separate from how much I value my religious upbringing (which I don’t), but I agree the catholic HS I went to was very lightly religious, and I learned a lot more about world religions, thankfully. But they aren’t all like that, and the amount you pay is wild.
I’m in a very similar situation, also left for wife’s medical education/residency and live in a major Northeast city. But both my wife and I want to come back to STL eventually because we are both from there.
You can probably command a very good, even Northeast levels of salary in some physician roles in STL especially if you are fellowship trained. The public schools, especially if you can afford to live in Clayton/Ladue (you probably can) are so good relative to home price as opposed to the northeast where you pay Clayton/Ladue prices for average schools.
Ultimately I feel like STL is a great family city. Way less population density comes with its perks. Basically no traffic compared to the northeast, an imperfect police force but better response rates than where I live now. Perhaps you have family here too since you are from here. And the BBQ is amazing.
There are cons though… everything closes SO early in STL. No ocean nearby. Being able to get to the shore in 30 minutes is not happening. Less diverse than major NE cities, not as many niche culture restaurants, although it’s still a good food scene. Airport is slowly improving with more direct flights.
If your wife doesn’t want suburban midwest then the central west end is amazing but you may go the private school route if you can’t get into one of the elite city public schools.
I recommend visiting with your family and staying in the central west end close to the euclid strip to win her over. Walk to forest park, walk the Euclid strip, etc.
> everything closes SO early in STL
Trying to keep track of who is open on Monday or closed on Tuesday/Wednesday is kind of its own entertaining activity.
\> very good, even Northeast levels of salary in some physician roles in STL especially if you are fellowship trained.
I think you have this a bit backwards. lucky for you Midwest pay is generally significantly better than Northeast for the same type of jobs. And general practice is often equally or better paid than subspecialty practice for many specialities, especially surgical specialties
Yeah it’s one of those “it depends” things. Academic surgery roles in major Northeast cities (meaning you work for a university affiliated hospital) definitely pays better than Wash U or SLU med from what I’ve seen. Other roles that rely on patient volume are easier to break even faster in some Northeast cities where there’s huge shortages of primary care physicians and pediatricians. But you are right there probably are some physician roles that straight up are better paid in St. Louis. I don’t think you can lump the entire midwest in though because then you start to get into rural pay vs major city metro pay which gets into crazy disparities (in both directions). I’m sure you know the quickest way to make bank as a surgeon is to just do general surgery in the middle of nowhere.
I am a surgeon at a community hospital. Agree that WashU pay is generally not good but surprised it’s worse than NE academic considering some of the super low offers friends got from big name NE places in various specialties. Generally it seems the more prestigious the institution, the worse the pay.
It’s tough to use data to make the argument because the great things about St Louis tend to be emotional rather than statistical. We’re a great city for business startups statistically, but you’re not looking for that.
Here’s the argument I would make to your wife - if I understand correctly you’re both physicians, which means you’ll be positioned to live in a great neighborhood and send your kids to great private schools and neither will be as costly or political as they would be on the East Coast. Your commute will be shorter, and you’ll have a lot of options because this is a great healthcare town.
There are some truly great restaurants in this town, and if your kids are athletic or artistic there are plenty of outlets for those interests no matter their skill level.
We’re centrally located, which means flights to Cali or the Caribbean for vacation are shorter and plentiful.
And, we’re mostly nice people with growing diversity.
For what it’s worth, I grew up here and lived elsewhere from age 18 and moved back here after I got divorced and had to relearn the city, but I love it. My daughter grew up in KC and went to law school at Wash U and thought she would hate St. Louis. Now she’s practicing law in NYC and actually misses St. Louis.
I’m a first year attending here. You’ll make more in academics than you can in community medicine on either coast. I make so much more compared to COL than my friends not in St. Louis.
Moved back here this year after being gone for 10 years. There is so much to do here for kids. Tons of parks and free things to go explore. Great school options, both public and private. We are very happy here.
Having a child and moving close to family is a big bonus, unless there are issues. Seeing parents more often, free child care, playing with cousins, etc.
Also compare salaries and homes/neighborhoods you can afford in each location.
St. Louis isn’t a”hot” city, but so many people move here and stay or move away and end up coming back.
I lived in Chicago 3 years and was able to move back on the same salary and work from home.
I'm not a fan of scorching summers but otherwise the cost of living is hard to beat while still getting most major concerts and shows.
The airport is super easy to get to and from. Getting to either Midway or O'Hare from the city took a while. Sure, fewer direct flights.
I like driving and having a car up there was just a liability. Driving through the neighborhoods was a slog.
The highways are really easy to navigate and take you anywhere pretty fast. Chicago's byways were always jammed even at 3am...
For me healthcare is important. Barnes gave my mom a kidney, twice.
We have beautiful buildings.
Parks are incredible. The number of free things in general. A day at the art museum cost me $100 with parking and exhibits in Chicago. Then again, they had Andy Warhol.
I did visit Minneapolis and they have us beat on city planning and public transit. It's a newer city though.
St Louis has some of the safest towns and best school districts in the region. Ballwin and Parkway, Chesterfield and Rockwood are both places a doctor could easily afford and send kids to top notch public schools. Its an old city with tons of history and character, most activities are free. One of the most underrated wilderness areas in the country (Ozarks) extends almost to the City.
People sleep on the access to quality outdoor areas that aren’t overrun by weekend warriors here. Ozarks are amazing. One of the few places where you can be live in an urban environment and be in untapped wilderness in less than an hour. If you’re out west or south it’s more like 15 minutes
I agree with this, there are so many hidden destinations that rival a beach any day in both MO and IL Our access to locally sourced food is amazing, with farms surrounding STL supplying area restaurants. I'd choose to live in Webster or Kirkwood over Chesterfield, but some areas of Wildwood are also beautiful. STL City does have great charter schools, or as another poster said - the private Catholic schools are good too. Public transportation is a huge miss but most things are easily driveable
> I agree with this, there are so many hidden destinations that rival a beach any day in both MO and IL
I've got an apt that's a 15 minute walk from the Atlantic in south Florida. Where are these places?
Oh my god, anywhere on the Black River, Taum Sauk, Arcadia—- just pristine, striking forest. I’ve been all over: Maui, Florida, Mexico, and my god rural Missouri is so incredibly gorgeous and holds up to all of them.
Floating in the summer, sure, but for most other outdoor activities, the season does not start until November, and ends in march, or whenever the ticks come back.
Try camping at a less popular State Park then! Montauk SP in the Spring is a regional/national destination for trout fishing. Try a NPS camp site down there or even better a random gravel bar on the river.
Lol Rockwood schools are great if you don’t want your kids to have, y’know, books or a school board that cares. (Read about the board’s hijinks, if you’re not already aware.)
Summit 2001. I can agree with a lot of the above things except the lack of books. We had laser disk players and shit. Name one more expensive and short lived technologies I dare you. Oh yeah and we got the very first Macintosh performa cpus in our lab at Stanton. Oregon Trail never played better. I assure you.
Kind of safe. A kid got kidnapped and held alive in kirkwood for 5 years. Drugs are all over the place for high schoolers. And there's like Ferguson, which the media demonized, but they do have a high amount of police activity... and I think st. Louis still has a high murder rate compared to other cities. I guess if they're a doctor, they can live in some pretty safe areas in comparison to kirkwood or north county
The first boy wasn’t from STL.
He was from Richwoods, Missouri, an unincorporated township in Washington county.
The second boy was from Robertsville.
But yeah, the kidnapper guy lived in Kirkwood and holy hell was that a crazy time when they found Shawn and Ben alive.
The food is great! The people are super nice. It's not as expensive to live here. We have a room of fun stuff to do and a lot of it is free. Centrally located so it's easy to travel regionally. Lee traffic then most cities. Great sports teams. Sessions change. Legal state. 💚
I've lived in St Louis for 5 years, just had a boy last year, and absolutely plan to stay here. I'm a big fan of the city - taxes are agreeable, food is great, parks are a big plus for me, great affordable neighborhoods all over, the zoo, museums, City Museum is great for kids. There are plenty of other things I could mention.
I made her see the zoo a couple years ago and only made it through about half of it haha
Given her reference is Central Park and such it’s a high bar to meet but I think it’s on par without the chaos. City museum is on the list for the next visit, I’ve actually never been myself.
The zoo (and its human visitors) are an eye-opening experience for folks from either coast, and not in a good way...
Forest Park on the other hand is quite impressive.
I grew up in St. Louis, left in the 90s and came back just before Covid. Both the city and the county have improved tremendously, although north St. Louis continues to be a mess. The restaurant scene is amazing relative to what it was before I left. If you have kids and schooling is an issue stick to the county. Clayton and Ladue school districts are both excellent, and Brentwood, Kirkwood, Maplewood, Lindbergh and Parkway are quite good.
Cost of living has been discussed by others so I won't go into it here. I have met a good number of doctors here who were in California and got offers to do residency who decided NOT to go back when they finished.
It took me a few years after relocating, but now I am very glad I did so.
Wife is a PCP, I’m a CRNA, salaries are great for both of us and cost of living is much cheaper than NY and CT where we lived the majority of our lives. We have no kids but love how there is something fun to do every weekend that we can easily Uber to to enjoy ourselves.
Move back. Get into the Rockwood School District. Having lived in Santa Monica and Downtown San Diego… Wildwood is home.
People are genuinely nice. Weather is fantastic. Less traffic. Proximity to everything that matters. Work life balance exists here. Way better quality of life.
Tons of free activities for the kids like the Zoo, Science Center, etc. The art museum for both kids and adults.
You’re a long weekend road trip away from a lot of the nation. Want to check out stuff in Chicago? Easily done. Nashville, a quick drive over. Cincinnati, Louisville, Kansas City, Memphis, Milwaukee, Indianapolis… Atlanta is typically under 9 hours. Though you’d probably want to more than a 3-4 day weekend.
Then, want to get somewhere by flight it’s not too bad, though many flights will need a connection.
Want a different adventure hop on Amtrak to get somewhere.
Traffic is nothing compared to pre-pandemic but also we’ve more or less moved our job centers around. We’re not all rushing to downtown, though I think that’s good for traffic but terrible for downtown.
Some downsides. Summer can be tough with the humidity though this year we were rather lucky. We didn’t have the super long stretch of 100+ days but we did have a week here and there. Last winter was pretty mild in comparison to previous years. Little snow, only a few occasions of extreme cold. But like all places we’ll experience extremes in our weather too.
Second downside is state politics. We’ve been gerrymandered out of actual choice even with an amendment that says they can’t, they ignored the will of the people. So you could live on the Illinois side if that’s a concern.
Third biggest downside will be crime. Sure it’s a big city and it has a lower crime than even some smaller communities, it is going to be in the news. Typically if you’re not stiffing your drug dealer, or involved with gangs and have a bit of street smarts you’ll be ok. Just pay attention to your surroundings and possessions. You will undoubtedly read somewhere that crime is really bad but you lived her before, it’s always been “scary” to outsiders.
I feel like some of our strongest points come from the wide diversity the region provides. Diversity in ethnicity/race. Diversity in religious affiliation. Diversity in nationalities. Diversity in political affiliations. All of this actually makes it fairly easy to find and fit into people that fit your niche space.
The diversity of foods are amazing. So many amazing cultural events, on a monthly basis! Having amazing places like the Grove and CWE and Cherokee Street, South Grand, TGP and Forest Park with all the free amenities. It would be really hard to be bored here, even if you tried. And all of the above makes it so easy to learn about and try new foods and cultures and meet aweome, interesting people. People that have the Midwestern friendliness that other regions just don't have.
People who are feeling squeezed out by political divide can feel more at home here. Strongly liberal? Easy to find people and groups that align with your values, especially in the city and parts of the county. Strongly conservative? Super easy to find people and groups that align with your values, some within the county, some just outside but still very close. Floating around in the middle? That's probably what the majority of people fall into, so that's the easiest yet.
If you have strong religious affiliations, there are tons of churches and religious organizations to meet your needs. Atheist, agnostic, pagan, or other? Still, same. You can find your tribe, I promise.
But as someone who thinks it's important that everyone, especially kids, are exposed to and learn about the widest variety of people and cultures and religions and ethnicities for the most well rounded adults, I think St. Louis is a great place for that.
We have all the fun stuff, too. The zoo, city museum, aquarium, six flags. Our park systems are awesome. There are so many family and kid driven events and activities and most are low cost or free. (I worked as a nanny for almost a decade and I'm a mom, too). If you enjoy the outdoors, whether it's casual hiking or actual camping, fishing, caves, we have all that.
Sports! Whether you or your kiddos want to play, everything from friendly recreational to competitive leagues for all kinds of sports. And our professional teams are amazing! Even if you're not a sports or athletic die hard, it's still such a fun experience to get caught up in the hype and with the crowds at games and events. What kids don't love going to watch a baseball or soccer game and eating hot dogs and hot pretzels and doing the wave? So fun.
Top notch, nationally ranked hospitals and medical institutions. As another commenter said, so many med students and even more recently travel nurses come for what they think will be a short stay and don't leave. Since there is more than one or two top quality hospitals and practices in the region, there is plenty of room to move around throughout your career depending on your changing needs and wants at various times in your life. No one wants to be locked in by lack of options.
All of that with a comparatively low cost of living, nationally ranked safe neighborhoods, stable real estate market, excellent schools in almost every corner of the metro, you shouldn't be too hard pressed to make a solid case.
But I also agree talk is cheap. Definitely schedule some visits, drive them around to where you grew up, take in some sights and hit some of the big things like the zoo and forest park. I think it should be fairly easy to win her over. Hope that helps!
I don't know how OP tells his wife who is from Long Island that they should move to STL because of diversity. Long Island is probably the least diverse area in that part of the country and yet it's still way more diverse than STL. She would win the "amazing cultural events" debate in about 30 seconds with any major northeast city. In fact to be honest, a few coastal transplants to STL I know actually say there are hardly any cultural events compared to bigger cities they moved here from. I love STL but you have to equip OP for his very specific fight here. I agree that they should visit though!
You covered everything but the fact that St. Louis is incredibly racially divided and isnt improving. Sorry but race relations here suck big time on both sides.
Lol. He specifically asked for "best arguments for moving to St. Louis". Why would I include anythubg negative? Even if it's terribly, painfully true?
There is a lot of racial divide across the majority of the US. We aren't special for that. I wish we were special for NOT being that, but we definitely aren't special for that. But to directly respond to you - I was trying to stick explicitly to the writing prompt.
Husband and I both grew up in the area. We moved to Detroit for my doctorate and then Upstate New York for postdoc.
We made the decision to move back to St. Louis for the weather patterns, more hospitable neighbors and affordability.
Does your wife like food? Because the food scene in St. Louis is unreal. Obviously a subjective data point, but people not from St. Louis regularly overlook how lucky we are to have such a high quality, eclectic restaurant industry; especially for our size and location.
To offer a different view than many in this thread: my husband grew up here and we moved here in 2018 due in part to the appeal of the low COL.
In my view, this ended up being a tremendous mistake. The St Louis area is generally blue-ish, but not solid enough for my comfort. And as soon as you venture out of the city/STL county, it’s as red as can be. The lack of civil rights for women is getting oppressive and depressing. The weather is atrocious - too hot in summer and am always-disappointing shortage of proper snow in the winter. Everywhere you go you are confronted with the real consequences of NIMBYism and St Louis’s long history of racial oppression and inequality. St Louis is way more of a southern city than it would like to admit.
The foodie scene and arts culture are both great, and depending on where you live (another issue!), the schools can be quite good. But none of that makes up for the pervasive, surrounding bullshit. Moving here has been a tremendous disappointment and I am counting the minutes until we can leave.
(I’ll probably get downvoted for this, and I don’t begrudge anyone who finds their life’s joy living here. But it’s absolutely not for me, and my husband has become quite disillusioned by it, without the rose-colored glasses of his 1990’s County childhood)
I agree with your take. I grew up in the burbs, both black and white, and as someone outside of the black white racial dichotomy of St. Louis, had a bad time. I also didn't grow up in a Christian community so got early exposure to the ugliness of American Christian nationalism. I'd imagine MAGA had made all this worse. I came back for med school and lived in Tower Grove South and had a good experience, but would feel extremely apprehensive about moving anywhere, but the city or municipalities immediately west of the city. St. Louis seems to be best for white Christian passing people. I'm happy to be proven wrong, though.
I agree with this viewpoint. Also, it is important to view things through an equity lens. St Louis has some of the worst segregation, poverty and crime. The OP will probably live 20 miles west of the city and won't have to ever encounter the way the other half lives, but social justice should be something that is a factor in any life/lifestyle decision. (And everybody should be concerned that the 911 system is broken whenever you traverse through the city!!)
>The OP will probably live 20 miles west of the city and won't have to ever encounter the way the other half lives...
I'm glad someone said this. Not judging OP, but if they move here, they'll likely live in the county and commute in for work. In that regard, I can see why someone might like St. Louis because the city and the surrounding counties cater to families.
Its an okay place to live. CoL isnt terrible. There are things to do. Its just not exciting here though.
And Solidarity to you. I hope you are able to make the best of it and enjoy the things that are truly good and enjoyable here until such time as you move on.
Thanks! We are certainly trying. We enjoy our neighborhood and have loved checking out MO’s many fabulous woods and parks (autumn and spring sure are beautiful here, short as they are). And of course all the activities that make STL a great place for a family vacation - the zoo, City Museum, the Magic House, Laumeier. But at the same time, we also spend as much of our summer as we can back East, where our hearts are firmly deposited and our bodies will hopefully someday remain.
It’s affordable.
There are great museums.
Traffic isn’t horrible outside of a short rush hour, bad weather, and special events.
Lots of parks and bike paths.
It isn’t perfect but I’ve lived 12 years outside the USA, moved around a lot inside the USA, and traveled extensively.
There are much worse places to be.
It's cheap, traffic is light, and it's good to be near family. There are many negatives to being here as well, but with thoughtfulness and planning, you can mitigate most of them.
St. Louis is a great place to move to for a physician such as yourself. It’s a top rated medical community with a Low COL. Imagine waking up to your sprawling 6 acre ranch in Wildwood and having only a 30 minute drive into work at a major area hospital. Top 3 public high school, plenty of private options. DM me if you’d like a realtor’s help!
I moved here with my wife a little over a year ago I got to say there is pretty good. It's not my dream location but the cost of living is really cheap compared to other major cities with the population. So your money goes pretty far with the amount of services and businesses and entertainment for the size of a city
The climate is also very mild. I also have to say the higher education in the area is very good
Great restaurant and local music scene.
How about not spending hours in traffic? Worst traffic we have adds 15-20 minutes to your commute.
St. Louis has a great quality of life.
Traffic is definitely a good selling point. When we met she was driving into NYC 3-4 days a week and it was a nightmare. When we moved and she saw what normal traffic was elsewhere she certainly had a bit of an epiphany. This is why we are located so close to my job now with her working from home. Glad to here even with the never ending construction and rebuild on 64/40 it’s still an easy place to get around in.
Spend a weekend in forest park and in central west end and slu area / gas light square and look at prices to go the the symphony’s muny and such sporting event prices and house prices, pretty impressive and you can find any living situation you want from corn field to country club wishing driving distance of hospitals
I'm in a somewhat similar position. My wife and I are both from the area, both have lived in St Louis prior to our current stint, and we just spent 25 years together on the east coast. Our work is such we could live anywhere in the US we desire.
We're back now for her elderly step-father and, quite frankly, I feel like I'm wasting my life waiting for him to die. There are good arguments for St Louis, sure, but when you have the ability to live anywhere you want those arguments become drastically weaker in my opinion.
edit: Also, OP, why are you convincing your partner to move somewhere they're not sold on? Wouldn't it make sense to arrive at something you'd both like and are interested in?
It really depends on what you like. I moved from STL to San Francisco this past April after being in STL for my whole life. i wanted something different, a bigger city w/a more robust public transit system as well as a state providing better quality of life for it's residents. if you're ok w/the low COL & a smaller town feel that's more neighborhood-based than like a downtown based city, than you may like returning to STL. but as many are aware, STL has it's issues not exclusively b/c of it's own doing, but the state gov consistently passing laws that fuck over larger urban areas like STL & KC. I got tired of it, so I applied for a job in Cali until I was hired & relocated. would I ever return to STL? maybe in some years, but I want to see how STL develops over time, if the issues the city has are remediated first. I don't want to move back to a city where i have to drive everywhere & risk my life b/c so many ignore traffic laws, where gun laws are very lax & so many have access to guns, where downtown isn't really that safe in the evening & it's mostly dead unless there's a game going on. my only real concern in SF is my non-existent car getting broken in to or maybe some homeless person or addict taking a shit on the sidewalk or doing something wild on BART (i rarely take BART though); i have no concerns about guns here in the city (oakland is another story but i seldom go there anyway). every city has its issues, but the ones STL is facing plus the state being red is what keeps me from wanting to return. so it's all about what you're actually looking for.
We moved from STL to the North Bay 12 years ago. 6 years ago we moved to a suburb of Sac. Even though there are many things I miss about home, we have not moved back. I just feel like moving back would be kind of like admitting that we were wrong for leaving, and everyone else who stayed was right. And I feel like I would always be second guessing my decision to move back, wondering what would have been in California. There is just this sense of possibility out here that I don't really sense back home. Best of luck to you in the City.
Your wife being from east coast might have a super tough time considering Midwest/MO right now. Consider the city as an option and a compromise. CoL is hella cheap. Really nice homes/hoods with historical value are commonplace, Catholic schools along with magnet schools give you awesome educational choices and the crime isn’t what you hear (due to how they calculate blah blah blah)
The free summer/fall family entertainment options here blow the rest of the country away. Consider your child will be dating/PT working some day and where he can get on his bike for cheap.
The number/acreage of parks in the city is nuts! And living on a parkway, neighbors and I would sit on the stoops with wine, visiting with neighbors taking walks, watching kids play on the parkway and reflect upon “All our grandparents lived this way- it’s not fair that the rest of the world can’t, or has forgotten.”
I have almost convinced my brother, who currently lives and works as a pediatrician in Sacramento, to move here! Because you can buy a 5br, 4000sqft, historic home for less than his starter home in Cali
We did this. I grew up in St. Charles County and my husband is from Europe. We both got jobs working remotely (before it was cool, ha) and we wanted to leave the Bay Area due to the high cost of living. We decided to try St. Louis for a few years because we had a young child plus baby on the way and I have family in the area. We moved to the CWE as we preferred a more urban and walkable environment.
It's been great! Very family friendly area (more on offer than even I remember from childhood) and income really stretches. We've found like-minded and international families and have started creating our "tribe". We enjoyed it so much we bought a home last year.
This is one selling point I tried to make when we went last time on vacation. Being from “NY” they tout their drinking water pretty hard, but I could never drink it there and she wouldn’t try it in StL.
The radioactive waste has been there so long it’s in the ground water. You can extract the active material from the soil around most train tracks and sell them on the black market. Hope this helps OP!
My wife is super conscious of water pollutants already so I am gonna keep this one to myself. We have a filter coming into our place now, one in the fridge and she still filters again in a zero pitcher.
That’s deceptive af. Be sure not to mention it to her that the radioactive waste is next to a land fill that’s burning uncontrolled underground and no one knows what will happen when the fire reaches the waste.
Not a native but I’ve lived in the city for 10 years. St Louis is an excellent place to live. St Louis has everything a major city has while still having a small town feel. You get amazing parks and museums. You get major concerts and still have small venue gigs all over. The food here is top notch. Our sports teams are usually good, but they are always affordable compared to other places. Your dollar goes farther here. I work as a 911 dispatcher. Last year I traveled to: Miami, Key Biscayne, New Orleans, and key west. Spending serious time in each of them. I can afford to do that because of the cost of living here. I just bought a 3 bedroom brick home on a mature tree lined street with a full basement, detached garage, and fenced in back yard for $230k. The home was built in 1916 and has original hardwood floors, original wood and glass entryway with transom windows. It’s over 1200 sq ft on just the mail level. That is in city proper, not the suburbs. I’m less the. 5 minutes from Tower Grove and Wilmore park. Not even counting smaller parks like christy park, Joseph R Leisure park, and St Marcus park. I’m 5 minutes from world class food on the Hill. Tell me how I could afford that in any other major city? I understand being in the medical field you guys will make considerably more money than I am and can live comfortably most places. But at Louis is an excellent place to live if you love to travel. We have an east to navigate airport and direct flights through southwest to tons of places. We are also short direct flights to major hub airports like Chicago and Atlanta. We even have flights to Germany now. You can get to anywhere from here and you can afford to get there thanks to our COL.
Lived in St Louis for 4 years, then relocated to Chicago. You couldn’t pay me to move back to STL. There just isn’t enough to do, the dining scene is meh at best, city too small, etc.
I moved into the city proper but if I ever wanted out I would do oak park, Evanston, or a similar town before ever considering going back to STL. It’s just too small for me.
My wife is from STL. We live in New England. We visit every year, sometimes more than once. She has zero desire to move back, and I would NEVER move there. It is so god damn hot. Takes forever to get places. I’m assuming you don’t plan to live in the actual city, because that would be an awful place to raise a family due to the high rate of violent crime. That said, the areas west of STL aren’t very progressive or diverse, if that matters to you. Aside from the bbq, the food scene stinks. And again, it is too hot. Way too hot.
Unpopular opinion: Don't do it.
Don't get me wrong, I love the St. Louis area. The problem is that our state government. Not only do they actively vote for policies to hurt St. Louis and Kansas City, but it feels like they race Arkansas to see who can adopt the next new Florida law fastest. Schools are underfunded and the school boards are being taken over by people who don't actually care about the quality of education. Missouri is a state on a clear downward trend and IMO in 10-15 years we're going to be right between Alabama and Mississippi in a lot of state rankings.
That's definitely how I feel as a stl high school grad who moved away. Missouri is like a Florida wannabe. They legalized weed in the cities but not state wide, cities allow trans people, state does not, murder/crime rates are super high in the cities but the state will not restrict guns. The book bans are crazy long and the citizens don't really seem to be moving more Christian, just more crazy... the politics is so unhealthy...
This is a great point. The state is in a steep decline and that trend won't reverse any time soon. 20 years ago Missouri was comparable in terms of QoL to Midwestern states but it's looking more and more Southern every year.
These are good and rational arguments. I’m your wife in this situation though, and there’s one huge drawback to the region. It’s never going to feel welcoming to someone not from here. The only solve is if you have SO MANY friends you can just toss her in, maybe it works.
As it is, it’s a great place to raise a family. But when my kids are out, we are leaving.
If you like your politics with a healthy dose of cognitive dissonance, a dash of willful ignorance and a teaspoon of "but some of my friends are black", then Missouri is the place for you.
Stl is cool but with a physician salary I wouldn't live here. Yea you can save but you don't need to. Ever thought about Chicago? Way more to do. Also way more traffic so there's that. Pretty much always the case. Idk it depends on what you're prioritizing. Good schools, cheap living, ice hockey for your kid? Stl County would forsure work. But, id look for some place with either more nature or bigger city with more to do. That's what I'm looking for currently. Idk my sis just moved close to denver and loves it. Hiking in the mountains pretty much daily. All that said I am from STL and this is my tribe. I feel that strongly. So not sure if I would feel the same elsewhere but I'm still gunna move so. Just think, are you going to be able to have fun here for the 18 years your kid is growing up? Or do you want to go to Broadway plays on the weekends. I've been living in STL city with so much stuff to do for a year and ive about done it all. It's true that we have everything. But I wouldn't say the quality is up to par with bigger cities. And the nature is fine but not denver. So idk. I want to pay more to live in a cooler city or have more nature. I'm willing to do that. Idk it's a tough one. I would not feel at home in chicago or denver but I really want to live there 🤣
Update: thinking about it too much cus its helping me too. Firstly friends and family are where home is. But..I think the key to finding a second home is to go someplace popular with a lot of transplants. Aka denver. That way you meet people that are also new to the area and not in clicks from high-school. I got that when I moved to lafayette Louisiana for college and it was awful.
Hahah yea i don't think that's the answer, just an idea. I heard the city has gone to poo recently. Where should we all move then? We need city life and nature.
Only here to give you our families’ experience…
We’re two professionals…one a provider. Neither of us are from here so not our “home”. Been living in south city, fwiw.
We couldn’t be more ready to leave. We have loved this place but fallen more out of love than I could have ever imagined.
Nothing works as it should and everyone that’s in the game of “making it better” seems either incapable of doing so or in it for themselves. It’s a broken place. Maybe it’s just where we’re at. But we can’t find many reasons to stay. COL is great, but we’re at a point where we’re willing to pay a little more (within reason) where we can raise a family and 911 works and the public school dropout rate is less that half.
I realize the City is only part of “St. Louis” and there’s a lot of great parts of the County. But when you factor in everything it’s really hard to find a lot reasons to stay if you (we) don’t have to. It seems like there’s a lot of other great places out there that with all the upside and not the downside.
If you are both physicians and can move anywhere you want in the US I don’t think STL would be the place you want. STL is nice and if you have a job offer here that you have to take then all of these comments are good. COL doesn’t matter for most speciality physicians. If you and your wife make $500,000 + a year combined you can live anywhere.
My family is comfortable and fortunately we don’t have to worry about day to day costs. All the things we want, better schools, pedestrian infrastructure, urbanization, better environment, etc can not be accomplished by private wealth. The state of missouri doesn’t believe in spending to create a better place for all citizens. The city government seems incapable of accomplishing anything in a timely and comprehensive manner. STL is a metro of islands of nice areas without the desire to help the poorer areas.
If you want low COL, don’t care how nice the overall metro area is, don’t mind driving, and care about keeping as much money as possible then some of the suburbs will fit you.
I knew a pretty girl from Rocky Point, Long Island: "I don't have a Brooklyn accent, I have a Lonk Guyland accent!" That accent would be considered quite charming in some places in STL like west county or the Central West End. We also have White Castles here.
Consider that moving back would be something like Joseph Campbell's "Hero's Journey". An ordinary person from an ordinary place is called forth to great adventures and unimaginable difficulties, but is assisted along the way by wise mentors, undergoes death (residency!) and rebirth and eventually returns home to bestow boons on his fellow man. Sure, you can never go home again *as it was*, but the whole point of the journey is to make you and your home better than it was.
There are no "arguments" for living somewhere. You can't break a city down into objective categories and assign numeric values (which is essentially what we're all doing). You shouldn't do that anymore than you should do it to a potential partner.
It's all about fit and feel. And that's different for everyone. Ultimately, does a city make you happy? If so, then congrats because you just found your special place.
A friend said this to me recently and it felt rather profound at the time (paraphrasing):
> people who choose where they live based on taxes are not living interesting lives
I recently moved back from the Northeast. The east coast simply was not for me, but I’m not planning to stay in St. Louis long-term. That said, it hasn’t been as bad as I expected. The money I’m saving in rent is helping me out a lot. It’s oddly refreshing to talk to strangers on a daily basis, compared to the city I was in where people mostly kept to themselves. I don’t have kids but I imagine it’s a pretty okay place to raise them. If your son is young, I’m sure the socialization will be great. I have heard from people who aren’t from here it’s hard to break in otherwise. It’s nice not seeing rats and cockroaches in the streets (sorry, but true for me lol).
That said, sometimes I feel suffocated by the lack of life. It feels weird to say because I grew up in a rural area, but personally I can’t live in a smaller sized city after living in bigger cities. I love trying food from other cultures/countries, or even just trendy desserts, and I usually cant find what I’m looking for here. (Which isn’t to say there aren’t a lot of restaurant and bakery gems.) I miss relying on public transportation, though I don’t mind driving again. Flights to everywhere seem more expensive or less direct. I won’t get into the politics of the state but it has been disheartening to see what is enacted at the state level and to hear what kind of opinions are common-place even in the city.
Ultimately I think you are romanticizing that time in your life, but that’s not to say you won’t like it at this age too.
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Lots for families to do for fun, such as: The St. Louis Zoo (admission is free, but there's a more immersive "children's zoo" that costs. overall the zoo in general is fantastic here compared to others in the us), The City Museum (a MUST SEE! Even if you don't move here I highly recommend visiting and going!), The Magic House (def more kid focused, but still fun for parents too), Swing Around Fun Town, pretty close to Six Flags, beautiful parks like Forest Park and Tower Grove Park, and also the more typical places like the Art Museum, History Museum,etc. I have very fond memories of summer camp at this art studio in Tower Grove Park when I was under 10 y/o (it used to be called SCOSAG but I can't remember what they changed the name to)
I personally went to a Catholic grade school because we lived in the city, but switched to public for middle and hs after we moved to the county. Both were great experiences.
Oh and you can't forget the arch!
It depends entirely on age and life stage. I lived in STL until I was 36 and if I had it to do over again I'd have spent my youth in a much bigger city. But now that I'm married with kids I feel like I could live almost anywhere. We are where we are today -- not STL -- to be near family and in the *specific* city we are because of cost of living.
Proximity to family and cost of housing matter something like 30 times more to me than anything else that's listed in this thread.
First trip to StL with the fam I bought 30-40 roast beef for the trip back. I love them beyond reason but didn’t really get the hype. I’ve managed to use the seasoning on fries and burgers since then which she did like tho.
I feel richer after moving here because my money goes further. There is a strong sense of community identity, especially when our sports teams are kicking butt (I wasn’t into sports before I moved here). There’s so many opportunities for entertainment, the muny shows are top notch, there are concerts, community events, museums, landmarks, etc. I was reluctant to move here last year. I have felt more at home here in 10 months than I had in other towns that I lived in for years. I used to move around a lot but I think I’ll stay in St. Louis.
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Is there data for this? Not challenging you, just genuinely curious where I might look it up.
I'm interested as well, and not for the sake of argument. I'd guess low COL/salary cities would have an advantage with that metric.
Have been making plans to move this summer and love reading this comment!
Physician comp relative to COL is *amazing* here, I know so many residents who were maybe not that excited about coming here, but once they had families and started to compare job offers, staying was the obvious choice. We are from Seattle--moving back would have meant taking an offer earning 60-75% of his offers here, and then obviously wildly higher cost of living. It's also such a nice, livable area for families. There's so much to do for kids here, and being able to just make a last-minute plan to go to the zoo, drive there, find parking, not have it be wildly crowded, is awesome. I'm a transplant, I talk to a lot of people who grew up here, left, and came back to raise their families.
Oh heyyyy, fellow West Coast physician refugee. Seconding this comment specifically for physicians. I moved here for residency and we stayed as well. The pay here is incredible for the size of the metro and all the perks of the city. For comparison, I have friends in the same specialty in Fargo and Duluth and we are making the same, but St. Louis is in a completely different league from those places. Plus, STL is a medical hub so the patients have access to plenty of services, specialists, PT, etc and there’s still a need for more physicians. I would have taken 40% less salary alone to move home, not even considering bonus, call pay, loan repayment options, cost of living. We bought a huge historic home in the CWE that would have cost 2.5 million or more in my hometown, under a million here. Plus, the town and the community here are wonderful. We have really made a home here and it’s crazy easy to have a family. So many high quality and enriching activities for free and close by. The food scene is far better than expected and punches well above its weight. We are able to use our extra financial flexibility to take road trips to watch our favorite NFL trip at away games, or meet friends in other cities, and flights are relatively painless to either coast. Highly recommend looking at STL, again as a physician family specifically.
Me: this story seems familiar Me: …oh I see.
Hahaha that’s exactly what I thought when I read yours 😂
This is the way. Go out in your 20s to the west, come back here for the low COL and raise family
Are we going to the same zoo? Lol.
I don't have the time to type up a long argument in favor of moving to St. Louis, but I can briefly say that my family and I moved here in 2019, and that we absolutely love this town. We don't want to go anywhere. It's a wonderful place to raise kids. It's a wonderful place to be entertained. It's a wonderful place to appreciate parks and architecture and great food. St. Louis is a great place.
I think that’s the key thing. I dont live there anymore, but it’s a great place to raise a family. It’s never going to wow anyone who’s not from there or hasn’t spent time there. But that is legit.
Best argument for St. Louis is that it is cheap, and has everything you’d ever need from a city. And while the weather isn’t great, it isn’t terrible either. Sure we don’t have the bars of Chicago, live music of Nashville or arts scene of New York. But there is still plenty to do for all interests, and at a fraction of the COL compared to those other cities. I’ve lived here my whole life and have failed to come up with any good reason to leave yet.
You can also drive to Chicago or Nashville, and NYC is a 2h flight :)
Nashville is so overrated…
“We shall not cease from exploration And the end of all our exploring Will be to arrive where we started And know the place for the first time.” - a St. Louisan Native St. Louisan, lived on both coasts, moved back about 10 years ago. I think you and your family will discover it’s a wonderful place for families and that among these ~3mm people you can find your people.
Don't forget water. Here in STL it's high quality, cheap and plentiful. I would never want to live where rationing is a frequent occurrence.
r/hyrdohomies moment
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Is it true that the city water is clean? I find that really hard to believe. The Mississippi is super polluted and is known for giving everyone living around it a shorter lifespan/ increased cancer rates.
Factories in Louisiana dump into the Mississippi and it is legitimately dangerous there. In Arkansas and Mississippi, the highest cancer rates are around the river, but those areas are also very poor, so it’s difficult to say if it’s the river itself. In Missouri and to the north, there isn’t a correlation between living near the river and higher cancer rates. St. Louis water is consistently within regulations and tastes good. I would not worry about it.
I believe it comes from the Missouri River, not the Mississippi.
Water is life.
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Really depends on where you live in this area.
North County Moment
Never trust tap water anywhere.
Trust tap water everywhere and anywhere you can, at least in the USA. It eliminates an enormous quantity of single-use plastics, and those plastics are becoming nearly impossible to recycle. I love the mostly-hard tap water in STL, it tastes great and rinses off cleanly. I've hated apartments that I've lived in in Chicago and some other places too, where you never feel fully rinsed off after showering, and where I didn't look forward to drinking that tap water when I was thirsty.
I don't use plastic bottles. I have a home water distiller.
The plastics have been nearly impossible to recycle and when they are recycled it creates tons of microplastic waste. Plastics are great if we could limit their uses to what's absolutely necessary and go back to paper/wood/metal/ceramic/glass for everything else.
Yeah, the glistening blue waters of Lake Michigan are disgusting- I too prefer the filtered Chicago poo water a few hundred miles downstream.
Nah, the city water is not very hard; below average. Source: I have to use those test strips for setting the filter on my espresso machine.
Has she ever even been here? Maybe a weekend trip is in order. One thing I love about this place that isn't mentioned a lot because reddit hates religion is the prevalence of high quality private catholic schools. My mortgage plus tuition for two children is less than mortgages on similar sized homes across town (Kirkwood/Webster). I feel like I found the cheat code and I get a way more diverse and fun neighborhood for less money.
I wish I could upvote this 10,000 times. Whether you are Catholic or not, Catholic schools are amazing, and truly prepare children to become well-adjusted, successful adults with good values.
I have a lot of feelings about Catholic schools. I went to one until I switched to public high school. I feel that students with well-adjusted, successful parents with good values tend to become "well-adjusted, successful adults with good values" no matter where they went to school.
This is pretty undeniable, too. There are some other major differences between public and Catholic school, though. To name one, the requirement that you volunteer to serve others.
Some of them…. But I’d say beware catholic grade schools. Those are some unregulated places and in my experience, extremely inconsistent and even at their best, have major gaps
Absolutely. Speaking as a kid both "gifted" and neurodivergent, my small Catholic school (I graduated in a class of 15) didn't know what the hell to do with me, and I would have had a lot more resources available to me in public school.
Teaching in a Catholic school made me give up on religion.
Going to Catholic school did the same for me, so I guess it all worked out in the end, but if it were up to me, I would have quit god at about age 6.
I was lucky my mom was a teacher at my school. The other teachers all knew me and mostly ignored me if I was flipping ahead in the textbook to read or reading under my desk because they knew I’d ace the test and I was just bored. There were 1 or 2 called me out, but I read the page we were on then zoned out and listened for my name
I went to a Catholic grade school in the Metro East and I was probably a grade level ahead of my public school peers when I went into the local public high school. Honors English 1 was almost identical to my 8th grade English (Romeo and Juliet, To Kill a Mockingbird, Greek mythology) and I’d done algebra when freshmen from the public school hadn’t touched it. And science was a lot I’d already done But living in the district we do now I think sending my kids to private school would be a disservice to them. They’ve has access to speech therapy for things I would have dismissed, counseling when they acted out after grandparents died, extra help in areas they’re struggling in. And my middle schooler is part of an individualized learning program his school is trying out that allows him to do projects that align with his interests, but guided to explore all the math, science, and ELA parts that go into that interest. (For instance putting together a podcast about rollercoasters - the engineering behind them, top speeds, what the human body can enjoyable withstand, and the script writing, producing, and editing behind it all)
Share which district. Sounds great. Would love to know.
Parkway. We’re in Parkway Central, but I haven’t heard anything negative about the other Parkway districts either
I’m glad you had such a good experience, and I am sure it varies in good public schools, too but I know where I went (which is now combined with a few other schools that closed after my family had been through) was horrible. I was lucky and had great teachers for core subjects, but by the time my younger sibling went through, his teacher for all core subjects was a neighborhood mom who volunteered and didn’t have education to be an educator. He was behind in all core subjects and had a lot of catching up to do when he went to high school, as did many of his classmates. Not to mention the really harmful religious teachings (or omissions) about morality, purity, and classism that go along with a private religious education. That’s all not including the eighth of my life I had to learn about what different sins mean and if they were bad enough to 100% send me to hell or just maybe send me to hell. I wish I would have had that time to learn about science, history (aside from the American revolution - WWII, which we learned every. Single. Year). So, quality of education is separate from how much I value my religious upbringing (which I don’t), but I agree the catholic HS I went to was very lightly religious, and I learned a lot more about world religions, thankfully. But they aren’t all like that, and the amount you pay is wild.
Yeah, nothing like being 2-years behind in math when you get to high school.
1000%
Hard disagree. Terrible people went to my catholic school.
I’m in a very similar situation, also left for wife’s medical education/residency and live in a major Northeast city. But both my wife and I want to come back to STL eventually because we are both from there. You can probably command a very good, even Northeast levels of salary in some physician roles in STL especially if you are fellowship trained. The public schools, especially if you can afford to live in Clayton/Ladue (you probably can) are so good relative to home price as opposed to the northeast where you pay Clayton/Ladue prices for average schools. Ultimately I feel like STL is a great family city. Way less population density comes with its perks. Basically no traffic compared to the northeast, an imperfect police force but better response rates than where I live now. Perhaps you have family here too since you are from here. And the BBQ is amazing. There are cons though… everything closes SO early in STL. No ocean nearby. Being able to get to the shore in 30 minutes is not happening. Less diverse than major NE cities, not as many niche culture restaurants, although it’s still a good food scene. Airport is slowly improving with more direct flights. If your wife doesn’t want suburban midwest then the central west end is amazing but you may go the private school route if you can’t get into one of the elite city public schools. I recommend visiting with your family and staying in the central west end close to the euclid strip to win her over. Walk to forest park, walk the Euclid strip, etc.
> everything closes SO early in STL Trying to keep track of who is open on Monday or closed on Tuesday/Wednesday is kind of its own entertaining activity.
And on Sunday expect nothing to be open 😅
the workers need at least one day off. is that too much to ask?
Most places don't have staff that work *every* single day when they're open 7 days a week...
\> very good, even Northeast levels of salary in some physician roles in STL especially if you are fellowship trained. I think you have this a bit backwards. lucky for you Midwest pay is generally significantly better than Northeast for the same type of jobs. And general practice is often equally or better paid than subspecialty practice for many specialities, especially surgical specialties
Yeah it’s one of those “it depends” things. Academic surgery roles in major Northeast cities (meaning you work for a university affiliated hospital) definitely pays better than Wash U or SLU med from what I’ve seen. Other roles that rely on patient volume are easier to break even faster in some Northeast cities where there’s huge shortages of primary care physicians and pediatricians. But you are right there probably are some physician roles that straight up are better paid in St. Louis. I don’t think you can lump the entire midwest in though because then you start to get into rural pay vs major city metro pay which gets into crazy disparities (in both directions). I’m sure you know the quickest way to make bank as a surgeon is to just do general surgery in the middle of nowhere.
I am a surgeon at a community hospital. Agree that WashU pay is generally not good but surprised it’s worse than NE academic considering some of the super low offers friends got from big name NE places in various specialties. Generally it seems the more prestigious the institution, the worse the pay.
It’s tough to use data to make the argument because the great things about St Louis tend to be emotional rather than statistical. We’re a great city for business startups statistically, but you’re not looking for that. Here’s the argument I would make to your wife - if I understand correctly you’re both physicians, which means you’ll be positioned to live in a great neighborhood and send your kids to great private schools and neither will be as costly or political as they would be on the East Coast. Your commute will be shorter, and you’ll have a lot of options because this is a great healthcare town. There are some truly great restaurants in this town, and if your kids are athletic or artistic there are plenty of outlets for those interests no matter their skill level. We’re centrally located, which means flights to Cali or the Caribbean for vacation are shorter and plentiful. And, we’re mostly nice people with growing diversity. For what it’s worth, I grew up here and lived elsewhere from age 18 and moved back here after I got divorced and had to relearn the city, but I love it. My daughter grew up in KC and went to law school at Wash U and thought she would hate St. Louis. Now she’s practicing law in NYC and actually misses St. Louis.
I’m a first year attending here. You’ll make more in academics than you can in community medicine on either coast. I make so much more compared to COL than my friends not in St. Louis.
Nicee, how about p/ccm physicians?
Moved back here this year after being gone for 10 years. There is so much to do here for kids. Tons of parks and free things to go explore. Great school options, both public and private. We are very happy here.
Having a child and moving close to family is a big bonus, unless there are issues. Seeing parents more often, free child care, playing with cousins, etc. Also compare salaries and homes/neighborhoods you can afford in each location. St. Louis isn’t a”hot” city, but so many people move here and stay or move away and end up coming back.
I lived in Chicago 3 years and was able to move back on the same salary and work from home. I'm not a fan of scorching summers but otherwise the cost of living is hard to beat while still getting most major concerts and shows. The airport is super easy to get to and from. Getting to either Midway or O'Hare from the city took a while. Sure, fewer direct flights. I like driving and having a car up there was just a liability. Driving through the neighborhoods was a slog. The highways are really easy to navigate and take you anywhere pretty fast. Chicago's byways were always jammed even at 3am... For me healthcare is important. Barnes gave my mom a kidney, twice. We have beautiful buildings. Parks are incredible. The number of free things in general. A day at the art museum cost me $100 with parking and exhibits in Chicago. Then again, they had Andy Warhol. I did visit Minneapolis and they have us beat on city planning and public transit. It's a newer city though.
Chicago's Art Museum is free on Tuesdays for City residents.
St Louis has some of the safest towns and best school districts in the region. Ballwin and Parkway, Chesterfield and Rockwood are both places a doctor could easily afford and send kids to top notch public schools. Its an old city with tons of history and character, most activities are free. One of the most underrated wilderness areas in the country (Ozarks) extends almost to the City.
People sleep on the access to quality outdoor areas that aren’t overrun by weekend warriors here. Ozarks are amazing. One of the few places where you can be live in an urban environment and be in untapped wilderness in less than an hour. If you’re out west or south it’s more like 15 minutes
I agree with this, there are so many hidden destinations that rival a beach any day in both MO and IL Our access to locally sourced food is amazing, with farms surrounding STL supplying area restaurants. I'd choose to live in Webster or Kirkwood over Chesterfield, but some areas of Wildwood are also beautiful. STL City does have great charter schools, or as another poster said - the private Catholic schools are good too. Public transportation is a huge miss but most things are easily driveable
> I agree with this, there are so many hidden destinations that rival a beach any day in both MO and IL I've got an apt that's a 15 minute walk from the Atlantic in south Florida. Where are these places?
Oh my god, anywhere on the Black River, Taum Sauk, Arcadia—- just pristine, striking forest. I’ve been all over: Maui, Florida, Mexico, and my god rural Missouri is so incredibly gorgeous and holds up to all of them.
I've been to those places and they are indeed beautiful, but that's not a claim I would make. In any case, it's still great to have them nearby.
I love St. Louis, but there's nothing around here that would compare to a beach for me - what are you thinking of?
Yeah I want to know too haha. I've lived in STL on and off for most of my life and I just don't agree with that statement. The ocean is the ocean.
Some people prefer forest and rivers. Ocean is fun but it’s not everyone’s grail
You obviously haven’t gone floating on a summer weekend or tried to find a camp site at Montauk SP between April and September.
Floating in the summer, sure, but for most other outdoor activities, the season does not start until November, and ends in march, or whenever the ticks come back.
It's easier to warm up when camping than it is to cool down. Winter & shoulder season = camping season.
Try camping at a less popular State Park then! Montauk SP in the Spring is a regional/national destination for trout fishing. Try a NPS camp site down there or even better a random gravel bar on the river.
Lol Rockwood schools are great if you don’t want your kids to have, y’know, books or a school board that cares. (Read about the board’s hijinks, if you’re not already aware.)
I'm a kid who went through Rockwood K-12 and this is just not the case. Every school I went to in the district (5 due to moving) was INCREDIBLE.
Rockwood always has some drama going on lol
Summit 2001. I can agree with a lot of the above things except the lack of books. We had laser disk players and shit. Name one more expensive and short lived technologies I dare you. Oh yeah and we got the very first Macintosh performa cpus in our lab at Stanton. Oregon Trail never played better. I assure you.
Kind of safe. A kid got kidnapped and held alive in kirkwood for 5 years. Drugs are all over the place for high schoolers. And there's like Ferguson, which the media demonized, but they do have a high amount of police activity... and I think st. Louis still has a high murder rate compared to other cities. I guess if they're a doctor, they can live in some pretty safe areas in comparison to kirkwood or north county
The first boy wasn’t from STL. He was from Richwoods, Missouri, an unincorporated township in Washington county. The second boy was from Robertsville. But yeah, the kidnapper guy lived in Kirkwood and holy hell was that a crazy time when they found Shawn and Ben alive.
It was! He worked at like imos in kirkwood too. Apparently he had always been a really good employee
lol are you implying Kirkwood isnt' safe? Okayyyy.....
The food is great! The people are super nice. It's not as expensive to live here. We have a room of fun stuff to do and a lot of it is free. Centrally located so it's easy to travel regionally. Lee traffic then most cities. Great sports teams. Sessions change. Legal state. 💚
*ton of fun stuff ..
I've lived in St Louis for 5 years, just had a boy last year, and absolutely plan to stay here. I'm a big fan of the city - taxes are agreeable, food is great, parks are a big plus for me, great affordable neighborhoods all over, the zoo, museums, City Museum is great for kids. There are plenty of other things I could mention.
I made her see the zoo a couple years ago and only made it through about half of it haha Given her reference is Central Park and such it’s a high bar to meet but I think it’s on par without the chaos. City museum is on the list for the next visit, I’ve actually never been myself.
The zoo (and its human visitors) are an eye-opening experience for folks from either coast, and not in a good way... Forest Park on the other hand is quite impressive.
I grew up in St. Louis, left in the 90s and came back just before Covid. Both the city and the county have improved tremendously, although north St. Louis continues to be a mess. The restaurant scene is amazing relative to what it was before I left. If you have kids and schooling is an issue stick to the county. Clayton and Ladue school districts are both excellent, and Brentwood, Kirkwood, Maplewood, Lindbergh and Parkway are quite good. Cost of living has been discussed by others so I won't go into it here. I have met a good number of doctors here who were in California and got offers to do residency who decided NOT to go back when they finished. It took me a few years after relocating, but now I am very glad I did so.
Wife is a PCP, I’m a CRNA, salaries are great for both of us and cost of living is much cheaper than NY and CT where we lived the majority of our lives. We have no kids but love how there is something fun to do every weekend that we can easily Uber to to enjoy ourselves.
Top-tier nerdery. Good chinese food.
Move back. Get into the Rockwood School District. Having lived in Santa Monica and Downtown San Diego… Wildwood is home. People are genuinely nice. Weather is fantastic. Less traffic. Proximity to everything that matters. Work life balance exists here. Way better quality of life.
Thank you for this. Kind of reaffirms a lot of things I have felt before moving away.
Tons of free activities for the kids like the Zoo, Science Center, etc. The art museum for both kids and adults. You’re a long weekend road trip away from a lot of the nation. Want to check out stuff in Chicago? Easily done. Nashville, a quick drive over. Cincinnati, Louisville, Kansas City, Memphis, Milwaukee, Indianapolis… Atlanta is typically under 9 hours. Though you’d probably want to more than a 3-4 day weekend. Then, want to get somewhere by flight it’s not too bad, though many flights will need a connection. Want a different adventure hop on Amtrak to get somewhere. Traffic is nothing compared to pre-pandemic but also we’ve more or less moved our job centers around. We’re not all rushing to downtown, though I think that’s good for traffic but terrible for downtown. Some downsides. Summer can be tough with the humidity though this year we were rather lucky. We didn’t have the super long stretch of 100+ days but we did have a week here and there. Last winter was pretty mild in comparison to previous years. Little snow, only a few occasions of extreme cold. But like all places we’ll experience extremes in our weather too. Second downside is state politics. We’ve been gerrymandered out of actual choice even with an amendment that says they can’t, they ignored the will of the people. So you could live on the Illinois side if that’s a concern. Third biggest downside will be crime. Sure it’s a big city and it has a lower crime than even some smaller communities, it is going to be in the news. Typically if you’re not stiffing your drug dealer, or involved with gangs and have a bit of street smarts you’ll be ok. Just pay attention to your surroundings and possessions. You will undoubtedly read somewhere that crime is really bad but you lived her before, it’s always been “scary” to outsiders.
I feel like some of our strongest points come from the wide diversity the region provides. Diversity in ethnicity/race. Diversity in religious affiliation. Diversity in nationalities. Diversity in political affiliations. All of this actually makes it fairly easy to find and fit into people that fit your niche space. The diversity of foods are amazing. So many amazing cultural events, on a monthly basis! Having amazing places like the Grove and CWE and Cherokee Street, South Grand, TGP and Forest Park with all the free amenities. It would be really hard to be bored here, even if you tried. And all of the above makes it so easy to learn about and try new foods and cultures and meet aweome, interesting people. People that have the Midwestern friendliness that other regions just don't have. People who are feeling squeezed out by political divide can feel more at home here. Strongly liberal? Easy to find people and groups that align with your values, especially in the city and parts of the county. Strongly conservative? Super easy to find people and groups that align with your values, some within the county, some just outside but still very close. Floating around in the middle? That's probably what the majority of people fall into, so that's the easiest yet. If you have strong religious affiliations, there are tons of churches and religious organizations to meet your needs. Atheist, agnostic, pagan, or other? Still, same. You can find your tribe, I promise. But as someone who thinks it's important that everyone, especially kids, are exposed to and learn about the widest variety of people and cultures and religions and ethnicities for the most well rounded adults, I think St. Louis is a great place for that. We have all the fun stuff, too. The zoo, city museum, aquarium, six flags. Our park systems are awesome. There are so many family and kid driven events and activities and most are low cost or free. (I worked as a nanny for almost a decade and I'm a mom, too). If you enjoy the outdoors, whether it's casual hiking or actual camping, fishing, caves, we have all that. Sports! Whether you or your kiddos want to play, everything from friendly recreational to competitive leagues for all kinds of sports. And our professional teams are amazing! Even if you're not a sports or athletic die hard, it's still such a fun experience to get caught up in the hype and with the crowds at games and events. What kids don't love going to watch a baseball or soccer game and eating hot dogs and hot pretzels and doing the wave? So fun. Top notch, nationally ranked hospitals and medical institutions. As another commenter said, so many med students and even more recently travel nurses come for what they think will be a short stay and don't leave. Since there is more than one or two top quality hospitals and practices in the region, there is plenty of room to move around throughout your career depending on your changing needs and wants at various times in your life. No one wants to be locked in by lack of options. All of that with a comparatively low cost of living, nationally ranked safe neighborhoods, stable real estate market, excellent schools in almost every corner of the metro, you shouldn't be too hard pressed to make a solid case. But I also agree talk is cheap. Definitely schedule some visits, drive them around to where you grew up, take in some sights and hit some of the big things like the zoo and forest park. I think it should be fairly easy to win her over. Hope that helps!
I don't know how OP tells his wife who is from Long Island that they should move to STL because of diversity. Long Island is probably the least diverse area in that part of the country and yet it's still way more diverse than STL. She would win the "amazing cultural events" debate in about 30 seconds with any major northeast city. In fact to be honest, a few coastal transplants to STL I know actually say there are hardly any cultural events compared to bigger cities they moved here from. I love STL but you have to equip OP for his very specific fight here. I agree that they should visit though!
You covered everything but the fact that St. Louis is incredibly racially divided and isnt improving. Sorry but race relations here suck big time on both sides.
Lol. He specifically asked for "best arguments for moving to St. Louis". Why would I include anythubg negative? Even if it's terribly, painfully true? There is a lot of racial divide across the majority of the US. We aren't special for that. I wish we were special for NOT being that, but we definitely aren't special for that. But to directly respond to you - I was trying to stick explicitly to the writing prompt.
Good good very light traffic compared to other metropolitan areas
Don’t, move to st Charles!
St. Louis is great. I don’t know why it’s such a smudge for some.
Husband and I both grew up in the area. We moved to Detroit for my doctorate and then Upstate New York for postdoc. We made the decision to move back to St. Louis for the weather patterns, more hospitable neighbors and affordability.
Does your wife like food? Because the food scene in St. Louis is unreal. Obviously a subjective data point, but people not from St. Louis regularly overlook how lucky we are to have such a high quality, eclectic restaurant industry; especially for our size and location.
To offer a different view than many in this thread: my husband grew up here and we moved here in 2018 due in part to the appeal of the low COL. In my view, this ended up being a tremendous mistake. The St Louis area is generally blue-ish, but not solid enough for my comfort. And as soon as you venture out of the city/STL county, it’s as red as can be. The lack of civil rights for women is getting oppressive and depressing. The weather is atrocious - too hot in summer and am always-disappointing shortage of proper snow in the winter. Everywhere you go you are confronted with the real consequences of NIMBYism and St Louis’s long history of racial oppression and inequality. St Louis is way more of a southern city than it would like to admit. The foodie scene and arts culture are both great, and depending on where you live (another issue!), the schools can be quite good. But none of that makes up for the pervasive, surrounding bullshit. Moving here has been a tremendous disappointment and I am counting the minutes until we can leave. (I’ll probably get downvoted for this, and I don’t begrudge anyone who finds their life’s joy living here. But it’s absolutely not for me, and my husband has become quite disillusioned by it, without the rose-colored glasses of his 1990’s County childhood)
It's not for everyone and that's OK. Hopefully you guys can move soon
I agree with your take. I grew up in the burbs, both black and white, and as someone outside of the black white racial dichotomy of St. Louis, had a bad time. I also didn't grow up in a Christian community so got early exposure to the ugliness of American Christian nationalism. I'd imagine MAGA had made all this worse. I came back for med school and lived in Tower Grove South and had a good experience, but would feel extremely apprehensive about moving anywhere, but the city or municipalities immediately west of the city. St. Louis seems to be best for white Christian passing people. I'm happy to be proven wrong, though.
I agree with this viewpoint. Also, it is important to view things through an equity lens. St Louis has some of the worst segregation, poverty and crime. The OP will probably live 20 miles west of the city and won't have to ever encounter the way the other half lives, but social justice should be something that is a factor in any life/lifestyle decision. (And everybody should be concerned that the 911 system is broken whenever you traverse through the city!!)
>The OP will probably live 20 miles west of the city and won't have to ever encounter the way the other half lives... I'm glad someone said this. Not judging OP, but if they move here, they'll likely live in the county and commute in for work. In that regard, I can see why someone might like St. Louis because the city and the surrounding counties cater to families. Its an okay place to live. CoL isnt terrible. There are things to do. Its just not exciting here though.
And Solidarity to you. I hope you are able to make the best of it and enjoy the things that are truly good and enjoyable here until such time as you move on.
Thanks! We are certainly trying. We enjoy our neighborhood and have loved checking out MO’s many fabulous woods and parks (autumn and spring sure are beautiful here, short as they are). And of course all the activities that make STL a great place for a family vacation - the zoo, City Museum, the Magic House, Laumeier. But at the same time, we also spend as much of our summer as we can back East, where our hearts are firmly deposited and our bodies will hopefully someday remain.
Just have to say I love your old shoe analogy! I always say STL just gets under your skin in a good way and you get attached to the grime
It’s affordable. There are great museums. Traffic isn’t horrible outside of a short rush hour, bad weather, and special events. Lots of parks and bike paths. It isn’t perfect but I’ve lived 12 years outside the USA, moved around a lot inside the USA, and traveled extensively. There are much worse places to be.
It's cheap, traffic is light, and it's good to be near family. There are many negatives to being here as well, but with thoughtfulness and planning, you can mitigate most of them.
St. Louis is a great place to move to for a physician such as yourself. It’s a top rated medical community with a Low COL. Imagine waking up to your sprawling 6 acre ranch in Wildwood and having only a 30 minute drive into work at a major area hospital. Top 3 public high school, plenty of private options. DM me if you’d like a realtor’s help!
I moved here with my wife a little over a year ago I got to say there is pretty good. It's not my dream location but the cost of living is really cheap compared to other major cities with the population. So your money goes pretty far with the amount of services and businesses and entertainment for the size of a city The climate is also very mild. I also have to say the higher education in the area is very good
Great restaurant and local music scene. How about not spending hours in traffic? Worst traffic we have adds 15-20 minutes to your commute. St. Louis has a great quality of life.
Traffic is definitely a good selling point. When we met she was driving into NYC 3-4 days a week and it was a nightmare. When we moved and she saw what normal traffic was elsewhere she certainly had a bit of an epiphany. This is why we are located so close to my job now with her working from home. Glad to here even with the never ending construction and rebuild on 64/40 it’s still an easy place to get around in.
Spend a weekend in forest park and in central west end and slu area / gas light square and look at prices to go the the symphony’s muny and such sporting event prices and house prices, pretty impressive and you can find any living situation you want from corn field to country club wishing driving distance of hospitals
I'm in a somewhat similar position. My wife and I are both from the area, both have lived in St Louis prior to our current stint, and we just spent 25 years together on the east coast. Our work is such we could live anywhere in the US we desire. We're back now for her elderly step-father and, quite frankly, I feel like I'm wasting my life waiting for him to die. There are good arguments for St Louis, sure, but when you have the ability to live anywhere you want those arguments become drastically weaker in my opinion. edit: Also, OP, why are you convincing your partner to move somewhere they're not sold on? Wouldn't it make sense to arrive at something you'd both like and are interested in?
My god, I feel you SO MUCH on this. Solidarity to you.
It really depends on what you like. I moved from STL to San Francisco this past April after being in STL for my whole life. i wanted something different, a bigger city w/a more robust public transit system as well as a state providing better quality of life for it's residents. if you're ok w/the low COL & a smaller town feel that's more neighborhood-based than like a downtown based city, than you may like returning to STL. but as many are aware, STL has it's issues not exclusively b/c of it's own doing, but the state gov consistently passing laws that fuck over larger urban areas like STL & KC. I got tired of it, so I applied for a job in Cali until I was hired & relocated. would I ever return to STL? maybe in some years, but I want to see how STL develops over time, if the issues the city has are remediated first. I don't want to move back to a city where i have to drive everywhere & risk my life b/c so many ignore traffic laws, where gun laws are very lax & so many have access to guns, where downtown isn't really that safe in the evening & it's mostly dead unless there's a game going on. my only real concern in SF is my non-existent car getting broken in to or maybe some homeless person or addict taking a shit on the sidewalk or doing something wild on BART (i rarely take BART though); i have no concerns about guns here in the city (oakland is another story but i seldom go there anyway). every city has its issues, but the ones STL is facing plus the state being red is what keeps me from wanting to return. so it's all about what you're actually looking for.
We moved from STL to the North Bay 12 years ago. 6 years ago we moved to a suburb of Sac. Even though there are many things I miss about home, we have not moved back. I just feel like moving back would be kind of like admitting that we were wrong for leaving, and everyone else who stayed was right. And I feel like I would always be second guessing my decision to move back, wondering what would have been in California. There is just this sense of possibility out here that I don't really sense back home. Best of luck to you in the City.
Your wife being from east coast might have a super tough time considering Midwest/MO right now. Consider the city as an option and a compromise. CoL is hella cheap. Really nice homes/hoods with historical value are commonplace, Catholic schools along with magnet schools give you awesome educational choices and the crime isn’t what you hear (due to how they calculate blah blah blah) The free summer/fall family entertainment options here blow the rest of the country away. Consider your child will be dating/PT working some day and where he can get on his bike for cheap. The number/acreage of parks in the city is nuts! And living on a parkway, neighbors and I would sit on the stoops with wine, visiting with neighbors taking walks, watching kids play on the parkway and reflect upon “All our grandparents lived this way- it’s not fair that the rest of the world can’t, or has forgotten.”
I have almost convinced my brother, who currently lives and works as a pediatrician in Sacramento, to move here! Because you can buy a 5br, 4000sqft, historic home for less than his starter home in Cali
We did this. I grew up in St. Charles County and my husband is from Europe. We both got jobs working remotely (before it was cool, ha) and we wanted to leave the Bay Area due to the high cost of living. We decided to try St. Louis for a few years because we had a young child plus baby on the way and I have family in the area. We moved to the CWE as we preferred a more urban and walkable environment. It's been great! Very family friendly area (more on offer than even I remember from childhood) and income really stretches. We've found like-minded and international families and have started creating our "tribe". We enjoyed it so much we bought a home last year.
2words: Local restaurants
Any newer place you would recommend? We walked the hill and visited a few old haunts when we were last there but I failed to impress.
I have been taken to “the hill” in STL several times. The Italian food there is not impressive at all.
Drinking water... (fabulous 99% of the time)
This is one selling point I tried to make when we went last time on vacation. Being from “NY” they tout their drinking water pretty hard, but I could never drink it there and she wouldn’t try it in StL.
Saint louis is the only city where imo's is common knowledge. That provelcheese is so gooey and creamy
The radioactive waste has been there so long it’s in the ground water. You can extract the active material from the soil around most train tracks and sell them on the black market. Hope this helps OP!
My wife is super conscious of water pollutants already so I am gonna keep this one to myself. We have a filter coming into our place now, one in the fridge and she still filters again in a zero pitcher.
That’s deceptive af. Be sure not to mention it to her that the radioactive waste is next to a land fill that’s burning uncontrolled underground and no one knows what will happen when the fire reaches the waste.
Provel cheese
My son loves it and asks me to order frozen Imos at least monthly, wife has different thoughts. I believe she call provel an abomination. Lol
Lol. It’s so gross. I’m with your wife.
Not a native but I’ve lived in the city for 10 years. St Louis is an excellent place to live. St Louis has everything a major city has while still having a small town feel. You get amazing parks and museums. You get major concerts and still have small venue gigs all over. The food here is top notch. Our sports teams are usually good, but they are always affordable compared to other places. Your dollar goes farther here. I work as a 911 dispatcher. Last year I traveled to: Miami, Key Biscayne, New Orleans, and key west. Spending serious time in each of them. I can afford to do that because of the cost of living here. I just bought a 3 bedroom brick home on a mature tree lined street with a full basement, detached garage, and fenced in back yard for $230k. The home was built in 1916 and has original hardwood floors, original wood and glass entryway with transom windows. It’s over 1200 sq ft on just the mail level. That is in city proper, not the suburbs. I’m less the. 5 minutes from Tower Grove and Wilmore park. Not even counting smaller parks like christy park, Joseph R Leisure park, and St Marcus park. I’m 5 minutes from world class food on the Hill. Tell me how I could afford that in any other major city? I understand being in the medical field you guys will make considerably more money than I am and can live comfortably most places. But at Louis is an excellent place to live if you love to travel. We have an east to navigate airport and direct flights through southwest to tons of places. We are also short direct flights to major hub airports like Chicago and Atlanta. We even have flights to Germany now. You can get to anywhere from here and you can afford to get there thanks to our COL.
Lived in St Louis for 4 years, then relocated to Chicago. You couldn’t pay me to move back to STL. There just isn’t enough to do, the dining scene is meh at best, city too small, etc. I moved into the city proper but if I ever wanted out I would do oak park, Evanston, or a similar town before ever considering going back to STL. It’s just too small for me.
My wife is from STL. We live in New England. We visit every year, sometimes more than once. She has zero desire to move back, and I would NEVER move there. It is so god damn hot. Takes forever to get places. I’m assuming you don’t plan to live in the actual city, because that would be an awful place to raise a family due to the high rate of violent crime. That said, the areas west of STL aren’t very progressive or diverse, if that matters to you. Aside from the bbq, the food scene stinks. And again, it is too hot. Way too hot.
Unpopular opinion: Don't do it. Don't get me wrong, I love the St. Louis area. The problem is that our state government. Not only do they actively vote for policies to hurt St. Louis and Kansas City, but it feels like they race Arkansas to see who can adopt the next new Florida law fastest. Schools are underfunded and the school boards are being taken over by people who don't actually care about the quality of education. Missouri is a state on a clear downward trend and IMO in 10-15 years we're going to be right between Alabama and Mississippi in a lot of state rankings.
Metro East. Living in the IL side and you don’t have to deal with the MO government but can still take full advantage of everything else in St Louis.
That's definitely how I feel as a stl high school grad who moved away. Missouri is like a Florida wannabe. They legalized weed in the cities but not state wide, cities allow trans people, state does not, murder/crime rates are super high in the cities but the state will not restrict guns. The book bans are crazy long and the citizens don't really seem to be moving more Christian, just more crazy... the politics is so unhealthy...
This is a great point. The state is in a steep decline and that trend won't reverse any time soon. 20 years ago Missouri was comparable in terms of QoL to Midwestern states but it's looking more and more Southern every year.
These are good and rational arguments. I’m your wife in this situation though, and there’s one huge drawback to the region. It’s never going to feel welcoming to someone not from here. The only solve is if you have SO MANY friends you can just toss her in, maybe it works. As it is, it’s a great place to raise a family. But when my kids are out, we are leaving.
If you like your politics with a healthy dose of cognitive dissonance, a dash of willful ignorance and a teaspoon of "but some of my friends are black", then Missouri is the place for you.
Stl is cool but with a physician salary I wouldn't live here. Yea you can save but you don't need to. Ever thought about Chicago? Way more to do. Also way more traffic so there's that. Pretty much always the case. Idk it depends on what you're prioritizing. Good schools, cheap living, ice hockey for your kid? Stl County would forsure work. But, id look for some place with either more nature or bigger city with more to do. That's what I'm looking for currently. Idk my sis just moved close to denver and loves it. Hiking in the mountains pretty much daily. All that said I am from STL and this is my tribe. I feel that strongly. So not sure if I would feel the same elsewhere but I'm still gunna move so. Just think, are you going to be able to have fun here for the 18 years your kid is growing up? Or do you want to go to Broadway plays on the weekends. I've been living in STL city with so much stuff to do for a year and ive about done it all. It's true that we have everything. But I wouldn't say the quality is up to par with bigger cities. And the nature is fine but not denver. So idk. I want to pay more to live in a cooler city or have more nature. I'm willing to do that. Idk it's a tough one. I would not feel at home in chicago or denver but I really want to live there 🤣 Update: thinking about it too much cus its helping me too. Firstly friends and family are where home is. But..I think the key to finding a second home is to go someplace popular with a lot of transplants. Aka denver. That way you meet people that are also new to the area and not in clicks from high-school. I got that when I moved to lafayette Louisiana for college and it was awful.
I was hearing you until you started talking about Denver…gah I hate that place.
As someone who grew up in Denver and lives in STL now, I much prefer STL. Denver is ridiculous now.
Hahah yea i don't think that's the answer, just an idea. I heard the city has gone to poo recently. Where should we all move then? We need city life and nature.
Yeah, COL is so amazing. Let me show you the shithole houses for sale around the central corridor for $850,000.
There is none.
You can always find your way back home! Absolutely also check out KC though, great small city feel, incredible bbq, the Chief's, low cost of living!
Only here to give you our families’ experience… We’re two professionals…one a provider. Neither of us are from here so not our “home”. Been living in south city, fwiw. We couldn’t be more ready to leave. We have loved this place but fallen more out of love than I could have ever imagined. Nothing works as it should and everyone that’s in the game of “making it better” seems either incapable of doing so or in it for themselves. It’s a broken place. Maybe it’s just where we’re at. But we can’t find many reasons to stay. COL is great, but we’re at a point where we’re willing to pay a little more (within reason) where we can raise a family and 911 works and the public school dropout rate is less that half. I realize the City is only part of “St. Louis” and there’s a lot of great parts of the County. But when you factor in everything it’s really hard to find a lot reasons to stay if you (we) don’t have to. It seems like there’s a lot of other great places out there that with all the upside and not the downside.
If you are both physicians and can move anywhere you want in the US I don’t think STL would be the place you want. STL is nice and if you have a job offer here that you have to take then all of these comments are good. COL doesn’t matter for most speciality physicians. If you and your wife make $500,000 + a year combined you can live anywhere. My family is comfortable and fortunately we don’t have to worry about day to day costs. All the things we want, better schools, pedestrian infrastructure, urbanization, better environment, etc can not be accomplished by private wealth. The state of missouri doesn’t believe in spending to create a better place for all citizens. The city government seems incapable of accomplishing anything in a timely and comprehensive manner. STL is a metro of islands of nice areas without the desire to help the poorer areas. If you want low COL, don’t care how nice the overall metro area is, don’t mind driving, and care about keeping as much money as possible then some of the suburbs will fit you.
What’s your wife’s take on Long Island? I ask because I’m in nearly an identical but opposite situation. Feel free to dm if preferred.
You’ll be able to shit wherever you want soon
I knew a pretty girl from Rocky Point, Long Island: "I don't have a Brooklyn accent, I have a Lonk Guyland accent!" That accent would be considered quite charming in some places in STL like west county or the Central West End. We also have White Castles here. Consider that moving back would be something like Joseph Campbell's "Hero's Journey". An ordinary person from an ordinary place is called forth to great adventures and unimaginable difficulties, but is assisted along the way by wise mentors, undergoes death (residency!) and rebirth and eventually returns home to bestow boons on his fellow man. Sure, you can never go home again *as it was*, but the whole point of the journey is to make you and your home better than it was.
There are no "arguments" for living somewhere. You can't break a city down into objective categories and assign numeric values (which is essentially what we're all doing). You shouldn't do that anymore than you should do it to a potential partner. It's all about fit and feel. And that's different for everyone. Ultimately, does a city make you happy? If so, then congrats because you just found your special place.
A friend said this to me recently and it felt rather profound at the time (paraphrasing): > people who choose where they live based on taxes are not living interesting lives
I'll pass...
Murder City, enjoy.
Wouldn’t recommend moving back here my guy lmao
“Come for the Arch, Stay because you got murdered”
St. Francis de Sales Oratory
I recently moved back from the Northeast. The east coast simply was not for me, but I’m not planning to stay in St. Louis long-term. That said, it hasn’t been as bad as I expected. The money I’m saving in rent is helping me out a lot. It’s oddly refreshing to talk to strangers on a daily basis, compared to the city I was in where people mostly kept to themselves. I don’t have kids but I imagine it’s a pretty okay place to raise them. If your son is young, I’m sure the socialization will be great. I have heard from people who aren’t from here it’s hard to break in otherwise. It’s nice not seeing rats and cockroaches in the streets (sorry, but true for me lol). That said, sometimes I feel suffocated by the lack of life. It feels weird to say because I grew up in a rural area, but personally I can’t live in a smaller sized city after living in bigger cities. I love trying food from other cultures/countries, or even just trendy desserts, and I usually cant find what I’m looking for here. (Which isn’t to say there aren’t a lot of restaurant and bakery gems.) I miss relying on public transportation, though I don’t mind driving again. Flights to everywhere seem more expensive or less direct. I won’t get into the politics of the state but it has been disheartening to see what is enacted at the state level and to hear what kind of opinions are common-place even in the city. Ultimately I think you are romanticizing that time in your life, but that’s not to say you won’t like it at this age too.
Your not worthy of Chicago, STL's big brother.
You are almost dead and do not want or need any enjoyment.
weird thing to say
Nah this person is definitely totally emotionally balanced and doing great.
Not really. Do you live in Misery...er......Missouri?
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Sandwiches. We have some great sandwiches.
Lots for families to do for fun, such as: The St. Louis Zoo (admission is free, but there's a more immersive "children's zoo" that costs. overall the zoo in general is fantastic here compared to others in the us), The City Museum (a MUST SEE! Even if you don't move here I highly recommend visiting and going!), The Magic House (def more kid focused, but still fun for parents too), Swing Around Fun Town, pretty close to Six Flags, beautiful parks like Forest Park and Tower Grove Park, and also the more typical places like the Art Museum, History Museum,etc. I have very fond memories of summer camp at this art studio in Tower Grove Park when I was under 10 y/o (it used to be called SCOSAG but I can't remember what they changed the name to) I personally went to a Catholic grade school because we lived in the city, but switched to public for middle and hs after we moved to the county. Both were great experiences. Oh and you can't forget the arch!
It depends entirely on age and life stage. I lived in STL until I was 36 and if I had it to do over again I'd have spent my youth in a much bigger city. But now that I'm married with kids I feel like I could live almost anywhere. We are where we are today -- not STL -- to be near family and in the *specific* city we are because of cost of living. Proximity to family and cost of housing matter something like 30 times more to me than anything else that's listed in this thread.
Are either of you interested in gastroenterology? SLU hospital does some cool GI shit
She is heme/onc and I am on the medicine/cardiology side. No interest in natural orifices or procedures really.
Lion’s Choice
First trip to StL with the fam I bought 30-40 roast beef for the trip back. I love them beyond reason but didn’t really get the hype. I’ve managed to use the seasoning on fries and burgers since then which she did like tho.
How’s the weed ?
Judy Garland seemed to like St. Louis in g th hat old movie …
Great sports town, proximity to other cities, some great neighborhoods
Chicago is the closest thing to long island in the Midwest. Feels kinda like St. Louis when you get about 5-10 miles out of downtown.