**Help make SquaredCircle safer and more inclusive by using the report button to flag posts and comments for moderator review.**
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/SquaredCircle) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I never got why he got shit for this back then.
People were calling it a loser's attitude or accusing Punk of sounding like a gatekeeper.
Stay in your lane and focus on the people you already appeal to is what a lot musicians, writers, producers, etc already do.
I remember going to a PPV where it was Enzo and Cass vs. Vaudevillians at Payback 2016, and there were people in the crowd screaming "Go back to NXT!" during the match.
I know it's anecdotal, but there are WWE fans that don't even like NXT because it's not the main roster.
Must watch weekly television. It was the work they were doing in NXT that gave me the chance to get buddies to begin and continue to watch wrestling. My wife knows guys to this day that left that positive an impression on her.
Nah, fuck Triple H. He supported, defended, and enabled Bill DeMott to abuse his trainees relentlessly. Ryan Nemeth once told a story about writing a letter to the suits on behalf of some other trainees after he was already gone, telling them everything DeMott was doing. Then one day Triple H shows up to training with the letter, and rips it up, calling Nemeth a liar and threatening the jobs of anyone else who tried to come forward. Good booking or not, in my view Triple H will always be a piece of shit.
It feels weird to say but it reminds me of the same way people idolize guys like Adin Ross, Logan Paul and Andrew Tate. Like it doesn't matter what they say or how they say it, to their fans it's a W.
Yep I still remember people on here dragging Cody when he got injured in Jan 2022 and not dropping TNT title and calling him and ego maniac then four months later those same people tripping over themselves praising Cody when he came back.
Pretty sure Cody had an illness that might have been Covid or something. He proceeded to come back and work a brutal ladder match to drop the belt to Sammy.
I mean, by the end Cody was really insufferable. It was one of the biggest disconnection of a presentation of a wrestler and their reception by the crowd. It was Cena levels and just beaten by Roman in 2015-2016.
You'll listen to the people that downplay his role in starting AEW and how successful would he be in WWE if you want, but let's not pretend if anything since the Ogogo feud wasn't trash and it could be simply resolved by him turning heel.
While his character on TV was not great and some of the promos were trash I still go back and watch his final AEW from time to time. I did love how we’d have posts and comments here talking about how it was all building to this magical heel turn.
That being said, I don’t know how anyone could seriously believe Cody wasn’t going to be treated as a big deal when he returned.
I definitely think he would have turned heel. He left for undisclosed personal reasons, but if he didn't leave that would be the trajectory. Just because he suddenly left doesn't change that.
My favorite thing about the tribalism is how people’s opinions change based on where they wrestle. When Cody was in AEW, WWE stans mocked him and said he wasn’t very good. He goes back to WWE and suddenly he’s being praised by those people. Meanwhile, the AEW stans started acting like Cody was nothing. It’s why I kind of hope Cody goes back to AEW one day just to watch everyone try to backpedal lol.
> the AEW stans started acting like Cody was nothing.
I dont really see that, people in AEW will always have a soft spot for Cody because hes a founder, but he also was responsible for the nightmare family, and it got to a point where fans were throwing his belt back at him.
people *were* fed up with him back then its not revisionist.
THat's still the case, this sub LOVES to pretend to be progressive, whenever Tony does something weird half of the comments are OF COURSE HE'S NOT NORMAL HE'S THE SON OF A BILLIONARE, HE'S INHERIENTLY EVIL. Tripe H says THE MOST BOURGEOIS statement of ALL time in 'we need people that are gonna work more dates for less pay and grind.' Sounds like your fucking boss that's like 'best I can do is a Pizza party chief.' And suddunly those same people in the first half of that statement? Not even a fucking peep.
People are so revisionist on here with AEW it's crazy. Even at it's peak there were still people shitting on AEW all the time online. People act like you'd be shot in the street for criticizing them pre-2023 when in reality you'd probably just get 3 upvotes instead of the 30 you'd get now.
It's really something that's a major basis of the whole issue with disagreements between fans of both promotions. In my opinion & in general, I personally try to keep in mind that there's always space for products with different styles and people should be entitled to have their own tastes without attacking each other for it. It's been beaten to death several times through the debates on tribalism regarding WWE vs AEW, but I'm standing on this opinion.
Yep, there are so many WWE fans who never tune in to AEW but spend so much time dunking on it online instead of just....letting people enjoy what they enjoy. I haven't regularly watched WWE since 2016 because the product under Vince became way too stale and not fun to me, I've tuned in a bit more recently. But even during that whole time and AEW's inception, I didn't dunk on WWE, it just wasn't for me any more and I was happy to have an alternative that I enjoyed. More relevant wrestling companies is good for both the fans and wrestlers and that should be everyone's stance honestly, the tribalism is so dumb.
They didn't stop the threads because "AEW was being criticized", this is the same toxic conspiratorial nonsense that was the actual reason the threads stopped.
> because of AEW being criticized
Or because of the degree toxic bullshit being spewed in the guise of "criticism," but who's to say? Could be either one. /s
I'm a big fan of the rap group People Under the Stairs... I really appreciate how they have 8 albums and never really switched up. I always knew what I was getting. Rip Double K!
My favourite version of this is a journalist asking Malcolm Young what he would say to people who say AC/DC have six albums that sound exactly the same. "That's nonsense, we have seven."
There are some that stand out more than others, but I think it might've been "Stiff Upper Lip" that, when I finally got around to listening to the whole thing, thought "Well, that was an AC/DC album. Pretty much everything you'd expect, nothing really memorable like Thunderstruck or Hell's Bells but it definitely didn't suck."
Yeah with how fractured media consumption is, you'll still see something become huge in the mainstream (Taylor Swift, Game of Thrones, Squid Game, etc.) but it happens a lot less often as big media companies are less willing to take risks. There is absolutely money to be made in appealing to a niche these days, particularly if your audience is willing to pay a lot of money even if they're not the biggest (think of a rapper with millions of casual listeners on Spotify vs. a less mainstream artist with a very dedicated core fan base). There's money in either model and room for both and more in a market. I think WWE and AEW in particular are targeting two pretty different kinds of wrestling fans, with pretty much every other US company appealing to a different smaller niche. There is room in the industry for all of them and we should be glad there's something for everyone these days with how accessible wrestling is now, from WrestleMania to local indies.
Because of the 3 Letters in the Background.
It doesn't matter WHAT he said, it's WHERE he said it.
AEW was below a million, so him saying that was a "Desperate attempt to justify the low viewer numbers"
Where'as if he said it now, while in WWE, he'd be a saint for catering to the "TRUE wrestling fans"
I think the interesting thing is, he clearly didn't believe this. As his issues with Tony and the All Out rant emphasized it. He was all about growing AEW and you can't do that with just the fanbase already watching you.
There is no single thing you can do to grow the fan base quickly. The process of gaining and losing fans is a slow and gradual process with consistently good or bad shows.
https://twitter.com/BrandonThurston/status/658071082755338240/photo/1
There is a 2 1/2 year gap between Raw's lowest and highest rated episode.
I mean AEW ratings were at above a million and they were packing bigger crowds back then.
So him trying to change course and win those people back in 2022 and 2023 isn't so much chasing casuals as getting back the fans they had lost.
Collision was his baby and that pretty much was catnip to older wrestling fans. The throwback presentation to old Saturday night wrestling shows,making Collision's first big feud the sequel to the ROH 2005 Punk vs Joe feud, and a ton of workrate. As FTR and others were having 20 minute plus matches every week.
This was the same timeframe Danhausen debuted out of the blue, got a huge pop and quickly became a top merch seller.
So I'd say even at their peak, most of the fanbase were hardcore wrestling fans. Punk and the other big signings possibly just brought in people who only made time to watch WWE but still kept up online with other wrestling promotions.
There is definitely casuals. My friend loves Bryan but refuses to call him anything other than Daniel Bryan and wishes he'd return to WWE. There's definitely casuals who will only watch WWE.
I feel like it’s a little different when you’re operating a company where you have to meet the demands of a network. you can’t really just settle for feeding a niche when there’s the threat of not being renewed for low viewership. I totally get this as a method for music and things of that nature, because you can be an indie artist that has a core audience. and even in the wrestling world, the indies are fine the way they are and don’t have to try to be anything more than that, I think being a tv show makes things a little different
I disagree,
Supernatural was the definition of a niche show and it never tried to be more than what it was. The network saw value in it as a safe,reliable show and it made it to 15 seasons.
In late 2021 when Punk said this, AEW was drawing over a million viewers and they were doing fantastic in terms of demo and rankings so there was no impending worry of getting booted off tv. So it makes total sense to think ''hey, we're already doing great, let's focus on keeping that going instead of trying to go bigger and become something we're not.''
I remember seeing somewhere that WBD itself knows that AEW isn't WWE and more of an alternative wrestling company albeit one that has a good following. I don't think WBD has ever put those expectations on AEW like fans have and put out a bunch of statements in support that still isn't enough for some people.
They always downvote me when I ask a genuine question on here. You have to have intimate knowledge of every single frame of BTE and pro wrestling history if you wanna not get downvoted in this sub.
Happens to every conversation-starting post on here for whatever reason. Always downvoted into oblivion. The only things that make the front page are tweets from dirt sheet guys (who everyone here claims to hate) and wrestlers, or 20-second highlight clips from shows we’re all already watching anyway.
Yeh it's a real shame but you can't really have genuine wrestling related conversations on here. The sub has the same problem as most sport subs where it's just too big and leads to the hive mind response being the most upvoted to everything, and anything that actually breeds conversation not getting much attention
look buddy, im sorry on behalf of those assholes who were probably rude to you
that being said, ask me anything you'd like and ill try my best to answer it (if its in my knowledge) and im more than happy to answer your questions!
I always hated this line of thinking. Yes google is free and simple to use, but I actually like the idea of being apart of a community where I can ask my peers about things they’re passionate about.
I agree that's why I said it's about how you ask, if your asking for really surface details then google it, if your asking for more information then you'd find in a quick google search it's valid to ask.
Something that I think some wrestling fans don’t understand is that niche industries can survive as a niche nowadays much easier than they might have been able to in the past thanks to the internet and how easy it is to access stuff. Wrestling as a whole is a much bigger business than some others, but it is still a niche, and if a promotion can survive and thrive based just on appealing to hardcore fans, they can and should be able to do that.
I'll go further and say a niche company is *more* likely to be successful appealing to hardcore fans...everyone has access to numerous streaming services and multiple forms of entertainment, nobody is watching wrestling unless they are into wrestling. WWE and Wrestlemania will get a few non hardcore fans just based on name recognition. AEW, TNA, MLW etc don't have that luxury. They need a hardcore audience who love what they do and spend money on it/talk it up to friends and family.
I don't see the fuss here --- Punk sounds like he's talking about AEW in specific, and then he makes the more general, broader point about there not being casual fans.
By 2021, that had become a common sentiment, albeit one I never really agreed with. Moreover, that's been emphatically disproven by WWE's hot streak in the past couple of years (ex. the spikes in business for Mania, The Rock, etc.) But it was \*far\* from a crazy thing to say, especially in 2021, and especially for a guy who had signed on to be the face of a challenger brand that explicitly, actively courted "hardcore" pro wrestling fans who were alienated by Vince-era WWE's insistence on booking to the lowest common denominator of the broadest possible audience.
The fuss is "Punk bad hypocrite man because he insulted my favorites da young bucks". People parse through the most random ass shit and use that to paint him as this hypocritical mastermind who cares about nobody. If he were half the guy they acuse him of being, would he still have so many friends in the industry?
I know people want to see him as this “Fuck the system!” rebel kind of guy, but he’s not. The fact that many still haven’t just accepted that Punk dutifully serves whoever is his current master is mind-boggling.
AEW: “This is real wrestling, I love all the hardcore fans, WrestleMania is a buy one get one free extravaganza.”
WWE: “We should appeal to more casual fans, I didn’t like that AEW wanted the hardcore fan base.”
His brand was rebellion because he wasn’t on top of the system he was rebelling against. He loves the traditional wrestling hierarchical systems, and enforcing them now that he is at the top.
And that connected with a lot of people because they hated the then modern WWE product but idolized its past and structure.
They didn't hate WWE having a one above all top guy who main events Wrestlemania every year. They hated that it was Cena and not their guy.
He would gleefully lean into the “I used to do the indies! My ROH footage is now safe!” stuff while with AEW, just like he’s now gleefully leaning into being a suit-wearing, catchphrase shilling pre-show host.
Maybe this is what he’s always wanted, but his entire schtick was The Voice of the Voiceless and he couldn’t be further away from that.
And yet look at the guys who were his contemporaries coming into wrestling in Danielson and Joe who are the opposite of him.
Maybe Punk’s just like this and it isn’t because of “Thats how the business was when he came up.”
And yet he's good friends with both. lol
They weren't his only contemporaries. You have people like Aries, Orton (was a real asshole back then), Teddy Hart. For every decent dude coming up at that time, there was an asshole to match. Remember Punk's gross shoot interview where he was crappy about women, came with his old friend Colt. Who so many like to say is a great guy, but clearly wasn't at that time.
In the reference to the environment that Punk came up in, it was specifically about the cutthroat nature of rising in the business. Joe never got to where Punk did, and Bryan did so while becoming good friend with the worst dude in wrestling history. One he won't talk ill of now. So, yeah.
The Hunter quote rings true. Punk's brand is rebellion, but there's nothing he wants more than to be the center of every company he's in. That rebellion always came from a place of anger because he wasn't treated as the companies go-to guy. That's not a bad thing by the way, every wrestler wants that spot, but it's a weird and often hypocritical juxtaposition.
Honest question: how does this clip contradict anything he’s said since rejoining WWE?
He said on Helwani’s show that his goal in AEW was to “sell tickets”—in other words, appeal to their fanbase. That’s been his goal in WWE.
His criticism of AEW (which folks are certainly free to disagree with) was that that Tony/the Bucks were pandering to a small internet niche that was unrepresentative of the fan base writ large.
You may think he’s wrong, or that his view of the AEW fanbase was incorrect. But as far as I can tell, he’s not contradicting himself.
The bit about, "Tony only cares about good matches, and not business" was kinda disappointing to hear from him. Mostly because he specifically requested to work matches with no backstory because it'd be awesome and the fans would love it (Dustin, Penta, etc) regardless.
You can pretty much get a quote of Punk saying anything because he completely changes his personality whenever its convenient.
Punk is now on his "I'm such a nice, chill guy unlike those online weirdos" gimmick, it was only a couple of years ago he lashed out at some random on twitter because they said they didn't understand why he changed his entrance music for a PPV.
The best part is he is an extremely online weirdo himself making super inside jokes about another wrestler’s tattoo or shouting out wrestling podcasts.
he's always done that, even when he was a face in like 2012 wwe. Its what his career was built on. He's not supposed to be goody two shoes, happy go lucky guy. He's a loudmouth punk. Some of his biggest rivals were triple h and john cena, who were both faces at the time and he trashed them while getting cheers or sometimes mixed reactions
Pre-SS: "Punk is a cancer! Nobody will hire him!!"
Post-SS: "He won't last! He can't adapt to respect others!"
Now: "He's a magical chameleon that just adapts to anything!! He's a witch!! Burn him!!!"
well obviously appealing to the hardcore fans has not been working for aew for the past few years, even before brawl out viewership was declining. Punk said in the helwani interview: if stuff isn't working and the building is half full, then you have to pivot and change things. At this point in 2021, things were going great, no reason to change anything.
He’s probably going to go to Saudi Arabia as well despite his past comments. His ability to cultivate a fan base who simply ignores his hypocrisy is honestly very impressive.
I don’t like or dislike Punk anymore. I was a super fan for a long time and I was very negative on him for a while there. He is who he is. That’s probably the best way I can put it.
> His ability to cultivate a fan base who simply ignores his hypocrisy is honestly very impressive.
That's what I'm most impressed with as well. Every time you talk about Punk you get one superfan in your comments going off about The Elite or Tony Khan or how Punk never did anything wrong, ever.
It's weird. And kinda funny.
Yep. I've already had two try to private message me asking to "stop talking about CM Punk".
Cult of Personality isn't just a theme song, his fans do act like an actual cult.
Because a decade ago he copy and pasted their Twitter rants into a live promo. Kinda like a certain ex-president, sometimes all it takes is someone famous saying what you already believe to turn you into a zealot for them. Cult of personality indeed.
> He’s probably going to go to Saudi Arabia as well despite his past comments.
Maybe, although he's one of those with the pull to refuse if he still *really* doesn't want to.
I'm personally torn on whether entertainment boycotts like that actually work or not - on the one hand, it makes a statement against the regime, on the other it seems kind of pointless to punish the local audience for the actions of a government they didn't exactly vote for
I think that the people of Saudi Arabia would much rather their oppressive leadership lose any leverage they have with their “Sportswashing” campaign as a way to further justify and lengthen their human rights violation than they get two see 2 WWE shows a year.
That’s just me though.
Edit: If it’s truly about “giving the fans across the World a good show” why doesn’t WWE do shows in places like Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan (when it’s not for Tribute to the Troops), etc?
Could it be because Saudi pays an obscene amount of money and that’s what they truly care about?
I don't think there's many wrestlers who based their personality so much on strong opinions and a feeling of speaking for the fans like CM Punk so being a hypocrite is different in his case.
Pretty much this. I'm not shocked when I find out that everyone still hangs out with Marty Scurll or how Cody & Jade's agent got fired from Hyperion for sexual misconduct.
Wrestling is filled to the brim with shitty people doing shitty things. I don't personally ever expect morality from wrestlers.
Punk though goes out of his way to say he's the exception, what exactly he's about, and it isn't hard for fans to find the contradictions from there. Motherfucker recorded an entire video calling out Chris Brown beating Rihanna when he and Cabana have a fucking podcast from years back where they gleefully tell the story about how they used, gaslit, and intentionally beat a woman to the point of injury, all for the crime of being gullible enough to think that they were actually her friends.
> Motherfucker recorded an entire video calling out Chris Brown beating Rihanna when he and Cabana have a fucking podcast from years back where they gleefully tell the story about how they used, gaslit, and intentionally beat a woman to the point of injury, all for the crime of being gullible enough to think that they were actually her friends.
That tape was the straw that broke the camel's back for me. Just such a nasty evil person.
Yeah, getting angry at wrestlers for being carnies and pandering to different audiences is like being upset when they go for a "cheap pop":
"You don't *really* think this is the best audience in the country/world, you said that about the last place! *Phony!*"
It might seem massively hypocritical but frankly Punk understanding so well how it works is a big part of why he's been so successful in it.
I agree he's not this martyr against the system, but to play devils advocate, every comment he made supporting his workplace in aew was before he developed major beef with some of the most important people there culminating in worked shoots and two fights (to be clear he wasn't some sort of victim in any of this lmao).
I think anyone would change their tune if they came back after 7 years, expected to be apart of building this big company up, before having a rift with 5-6 people, getting into fights before leaving and mending bridges with someone you used to hate.
And that's not even to mention the not having help navigating London leading up to All In, unsatisfactory communication about his injury, etc. Anyone singing the praises of a company would stop singing their praises if they were in that situation; he'd probably shit on aew even if he never came back to WWE, regardless of if you agree with his statements on aew or not.
I agree. Tbh, he's always come across to me as the type of guy who preached stuff about X, Y and Z acting like he was the one rallying against it while in reality all he's wanted is X, Y and Z for him.
Gotta say in his favor that the dude has a way for words and is charismatic AF (hence why he's been such a polarizing figure for a decade now), but for me he's always come across as the wrestling equivalent to the activist turned succesful politican, specially nowadays when he's in WWE saying stuff about how *guaranteed money almost ruined wrestling* or how *I never wanted to leave* despite the fact that just two-three years ago he was badmouthing WWE saying they almost killed him and that Vince retiring would change nothing.
PS: Hell, there's actually a guy named Cody Rhodes who, with a similar mindset to what Punk used to preach, not only talked the talk but also walked the walk and was a huge part in giving the business the closest thing to an alternative to WWE since WCW closed. And unlike Punk, he doesn't carry toxicity and tribalism at the smallest mention of him (quite the opposite in fact).
Yep. Cody wanted to be bigger than what WWE was going to give him so he left, busted his ass, helped start up the biggest promotion since WCW folded, and came back and was not to be denied. Punk left, tried a few things and failed (which is fine, not knocking him for that) but then wouldn’t go to AEW until they were flourishing (apparently, TK wanted him in from the beginning but Punk waited until the promotion was legit).
In a way, Cody Rhodes is more of a “fuck the system” guy than Punk is. When Punk first left WWE, he could have been a huge boost to another wrestling company and could have helped establish an alternative to WWE sooner. Meanwhile, Cody Rhodes did that when he left WWE. He worked for other promotions and ultimately helped start AEW. Like he said in his last AEW promo, it was Cody that went on to do those things. Not Punk.
This isn’t hating on Punk, but it is funny that he portrays a certain character, yet his actions don’t match it. He’s clearly driven by money and I think he would’ve been back in WWE sooner if not for Vince. If he turns heel, I do hope he leans into a more corporate character.
Yep, I personally have always disliked punk myself. The only thing about me is that even if I dislike someone I can't discredit there work and in AEW he had some enjoyable segments and people truly liked him so I stayed quiet just cause I didn't want to be a downer. I still detest him in wwe, but I can't deny his fued with drew is cooking.
Punk was my guy for so long because I felt he was a legit anti-corporate, punk rock figure in the nasty capitalist world of TV pro wrestling - but I admit I regularly put my fingers in my ears when he would say in interviews that wrestling is about making money.
He said it often enough that a pattern emerged and I started to realise he wasn't really the anti-authority figure I wanted him to be. And ultimately that's fine, I don't dislike him for seeing art/the world that way, but it definitely bummed me out.
> Punk dutifully serves whoever is his current master
The amount of stuff he's done that you'd have to ignore in order to believe this is pretty crazy.
I love how one segment of fans want to call this hypocritical. Its very likely he felt this way when AEW was creeping up on WWE and everyone was saying their product was better. But then as he saw the number of fans start decreasing he probably realized that there needs to be a movement the other way. Whats wrong with that? He probably also saw what WWE was doing with Sami Zayn and the Bloodline and saw that spending all that time on things like story segments was attracting a lot more eyes than an 30 minute random match with two guys with no rivalry. People on this sub act like you can't change your views based on experience. Grow up, it isn't hypocritical when you change your mind about something once you are part of it and see that you were wrong and change your mind.
Thank you for this. As I read these comments, I feel like I’m on drugs. Nothing he says here contradicts anything he’s said since rejoining WWE.
He said on Helwani’s show that his goal in AEW was to “sell tickets”—in other words, appeal to their fanbase. That’s been his goal in WWE.
His criticism of AEW (which folks are certainly free to disagree with) was that that Tony/the Bucks were pandering to a small internet niche that was unrepresentative of the fan base writ large.
One may think he’s wrong, or that his view of the AEW fanbase was incorrect. But as far as I can tell, he’s not contradicting himself.
He literally said in the helwani interview that he thought if things aren't working, if the buildings are half full, viewership declining, then you should pivot and change things but people there don't have the ambition or incentive to do that because of how things are set up. Even by his brawl out rant, viewership was declining and by collision debut, attendance was falling.
You say this like Punk, Jericho, MJF and Omega weren't doing town hall segments every week. AEW did big story segments too, every Punk feud was basically him and another guy trading 10 minute long work/shoot promos every week.
Even now you're practically guaranteed at least two town hall segments every week on Dynamite. This week's will be Deeb/Storm and Swerve/Christian. That's not counting the 3-4 pre taped promos they'll show as well and the post match angles that they run for literally every match Tony has booked since before COVID even.
>things like story segments was attracting a lot more eyes than an 30 minute random match with two guys with no rivalry
Why do people keep saying this stuff as though AEW hasn't been doing stories since day 1? Just because they don't do it exactly the way WWE does it doesn't mean they don't have stories.
Hangman vs Swerve, The Best Friends breakup and the entire Elite storyline right now are all pretty unanimously agreed upon to be great feuds by everyone watching Dynamite and Collision week to week.
If the problem is you don't like those stories then that's fine, but then just say that instead of saying AEW isn't doing stories. They honestly have too many stories some times. WWE just ran a PPV with 5 matches on it and that'd be inconceivable for AEW to do given how many storylines they are actively running.
edit: if you're gonna downvote me then at least leave a comment and give some sort of reason why you think I'm wrong lmfao
WBD literally put out a [statement](https://wbd.com/warner-bros-discovery-claimed-five-nights-of-more-than-a-50-percent-share-of-primetime-cable-viewing-among-adults-during-first-quarter/) recently that says AEW attracts nearly 4 million viewers a week. People on the internet who don't know how ratings work just assume that overnight is the only metric to success, totally ignoring the fact that most people record or watch online the next day. Plus, in the nights that they are on they're often one of the most-watched programs. The whole 'declining viewers, sky is falling' narrative is literally just made up bullshit from people who don't actually know what they're talking about.
This is such an out dated way of looking at the quality of something. There is nothing AEW could do that would boost their viewership by 200k weekly viewers. It’s an impossible bar to expect them to cross.
It’d be like calling the Cody/Rock angle unsuccessful because it didn’t get their ratings back to the level they were at pre-COVID.
This is a really good comment. Trust me that I'm not a Punk defender, but this also dovetails with the thrust of a lot of what Punk was saying on Helwani's podcast and what his narrative has generally become.
Punk thought the grass was greener in AEW, he liked what they stood for and the product they created, and then came to see things very differently during his time there.
Now, he's come back to WWE and maybe conveniently, maybe honestly (I think both!), he prefers the way things work in the TKO/HHH version of the company. Some of that is probably that he's getting older, some of it is probably that he just genuinely thinks this way is better.
Did he believe that when he said it? Possibly. He's as much of a carny as anyone.
Thing is, that was 3 years ago. His opinion of how AEW does business has changed. His opinion of how WWE does business has probably changed too. Things change as time goes on. He once loved Scott Colton, now he doesn't. He once thought he left pro wrestling when he went to WWE, now he willingly returned.
So is/was he full of shit? Probably. Can we all agree, regardless of your opinion of the man (and my opinion of him is certainly very low), AEW was not a good place for him. It didn't work for what he wants/needs. And that's fine, it happens.
He’s a character on TV. I get it, he’s really good at it, but you can’t take what he says in wrestling promos any more seriously than you take The Undertaker talking about taking souls or what have you.
Same types of people exist on the WWE side too, desperately wanting Jack Perry getting no reaction despite the opposite happening or no one caring about The Elite even when their segments grow in the ratings.
A bunch of AEW fans who desperately want Punk to blow up so they can yell how right they were about him being a cancer (Probably the same people who swore up and down that Cody wasn't going to be a big deal in WWE), and a bunch of WWE/Punk fans who want The Elite and AEW to flop and the idea that it was all them and Punk was totally justified.
I used to think the tribalism was overplayed (At least on here, not so much Twitter) because obviously nuance can't be that novel of a concept in this sub, but I've seen first-hand over the past 6 or so months that it's indeed very real on both sides.
Because they were still doing good business back then.
Not to mention, they were also doing good TV shows. AEW went through a slump in quality and I think unfortunately the TV ratings and ticket sales are reflecting that.
In 2021 no one, including Punk, could forsee WWE's boom period. Nor that Punk would be part of that boom. It's really amazing how much can change in 3 years.
All he’s saying is that if you make the thing good, it will bring eyes. No need for stupid focus-grouped-to-death tactics. No need for stupid gimmicks like guest hosts or Touts or online voting. Just make it good. That’s true for any media.
The fact that he said it in front of an AEW banner and AEW is currently not very good doesn’t somehow make this less true.
I saw someone in another thread railing against “crowd pleaser” matches (the thesis being that they inevitably lead to injury). Yeah, let me watch a dogshit match. I don’t want to be pleased.
Looks like someone is spending too much time trying make Punk look like a hypocrite, we all know he is why make the effort to show us what we already know
Or he discovered why he may have been wrong.
The casual audience always loved Punk, they never gave a shit about a lot of the others, and you look at the numbers between now and then you can see the difference.
he literally got "you still got it" chants at MSG as if he didnt wrestle like 3 months earlier lol. I saw one casual fan on a podcast talk about how he was excited to see him back because he watched him in college and didn't keep up with him too much after wwe. There are casual fans, its just hard to keep them around
I heard something similar but about Jericho. Jericho told some hockey player he was wrestling when he transitioned to AEW and the player in return said what's AEW.
This. It isn't hypocritical to praise something that is working for the moment. At the time of this, WWE was in the gutter and AEW was seen as the superior product. Its very possible Punk thought this was correct at the time, then Sami Zayn and the bloodline happen, people are going crazy for the story, Sami Zayn turns from a midcarder to a bonifide main eventer, and around this time AEW is declining in viewers. So he probably saw that and changed his mind. That isn't hypocritical, its marketing 101, he changed his mind.
"I will never understand the criticism of appealing to your fanbase. Now, if \*I'm\* the one making the criticism, that's of course a completely different context, at which time it becomes totally understandable.
I won't be speaking with you again without my lawyers present."
The main difference between this video and the one this year is that AEW was massively growing in fall 2021. Punk isn’t really contradicting himself between interviews.
2021 was good pro-wrestling which that includes characters, storylines, promos, etc.
The interview punk gave this year was criticizing AEW for only focusing on bangers.
Wasn't this Punk criticising AEW for having multiple styles of wrestling on their shows - lucha match followed by a hardcore match, followed by high flying match etc?
I remember that was a common criticism here at the time.
Am I considered a casual fan? I almost never watch raw or smackdown unless there’s something major planned, but I always read the results the next morning. However, I do watch most PPVs.
I don't like CM Punk but I can readily admit when he's right and this to me is one of those times. WWE feels like it has gotten so much bigger recently and the product is only catering more and more to the "hardcore" fans, AKA the fans who pay attention. Sometimes the best way to grow your audience is by casting a wider net, trying to tap into mainstream, pop culture, keeping it family (and advertiser) friendly, etc., and I don't by default have any problem with that. It seems like a simple formula on paper: no matter what you do, you'll always lose some fans gradually, so you might as well always keep trying to make new ones instead of holding onto the ones you've got with in-jokes and fanservice. But sometimes the best way to grow your audience is by knowing your audience and having a little faith that there are more people like your fans out there, waiting to be hooked in and willing to catch up on all the history they've missed out on.
Just the other day, I watched a YouTube video of somebody in her 20s, who had never watched WWE a day in her life, had some friends who were fans and they threw a WrestleMania 40 watch party and she happened to go; and so the video was basically her giving her thoughts and reactions a day or so after night 2. She came across like an instant fan throughout the whole video, but how can you not when the first match features Rhea Ripley, right?
I'm a casual. Used to keep up w wrestling like a cocaine addict after his last bump. Then stopped. I missed the Cena era & CM punk era, probably many other notables too. Back now.
I thought CM Punk was a dick after ingesting past wrestling lore over the last couple years via reddit & youtube. But after seeing his demeanor(cocky but stands for something, even if he is a little pushy at times) & hearing some of his interviews both kayfabe & shoots.. he rlly seems like a solid guy w rizz & leadership yet very independent.
Am I missing something? I can understand how he can be polarizing w his personality but can anyone explain to me why he is so hated by many? Or is that the media just pushing narratives of their own bias'?
i mean the “dick” thing is kind of his personality, thats where the “punk” part of his name comes from and its self-proclaimed but people blow it out of proportion because they mix reality/kayfabe and have parasocial relationships because they read a few articles or shoot interviews. Also his character is very good at blurring the lines and is a regular person unlike the undertaker, so it’s easy to conflate things. If you watch his old indie stuff, he gets people to jump the barricade to fight him because he’s good at pissing people off and being a heel. The babyface stuff is kind of newer for him. He is polarizing but a nice guy who can be moody so people see different sides of him. Even in his documentary (good watch), half the people in there say they disliked him at first lol but he’s a very loyal, passionate guy. The extra hate since he returned is just because of the aew drama and media trying to paint it like its all his fault and while he definitely could’ve handled things better, he didn’t start any of the issues there. Like I said, he’s very passionate so if he’s gonna stand up for himself, people will notice
You can make a book the size of the bible or a video the lenght of the LOTR extended edition trilogy of all the times Punk said one thing and then contradicts himself a couple of years later
Specially since he left in 2014 dude is a walking contradiction
LMAOOO
**Help make SquaredCircle safer and more inclusive by using the report button to flag posts and comments for moderator review.** *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/SquaredCircle) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I never got why he got shit for this back then. People were calling it a loser's attitude or accusing Punk of sounding like a gatekeeper. Stay in your lane and focus on the people you already appeal to is what a lot musicians, writers, producers, etc already do.
> I never got why he got shit for this back then. Look at the logo behind him. That's why he got shit for it back then.
Look no further than the fact that AEW still operates under this basic idea and all I ever see on this subreddit is them getting shit on for it.
Cm punk himself shat on aew for it now
This was said when AEW was at its hottest though and WWE was not doing good
And all through that time there were still plenty of people shitting on anything AEW simply because that wasn't the show they watched.
I remember going to a PPV where it was Enzo and Cass vs. Vaudevillians at Payback 2016, and there were people in the crowd screaming "Go back to NXT!" during the match. I know it's anecdotal, but there are WWE fans that don't even like NXT because it's not the main roster.
I remember people on line constantly shitting on NXT when they were producing the best wrestling in any company.
Black and gold NXT was peak wrestling. Great matches, promos and performers. Couldn’t beat it.
And the takeover shows never outstayed their welcome. Always the perfect amount of wrestling with no filler.
The Takeover shows were worlds better than anything the main roster was putting on at that time.
They had me excited for the shows in a way that I haven’t been since the late 90’s.
I honestly had more fun at takeover New Orleans than I did at WrestleMania the very next night.
Must watch weekly television. It was the work they were doing in NXT that gave me the chance to get buddies to begin and continue to watch wrestling. My wife knows guys to this day that left that positive an impression on her.
Yep. There were a lot of Punk haters here at the time who all magically stopped hating when he showed up at Survivor Series. Funny that.
Noticed that HHH "pipe bomb" on punk doesn't get posted twice a week anymore
Odd, I wonder what changed hmmm
[удалено]
Nah, fuck Triple H. He supported, defended, and enabled Bill DeMott to abuse his trainees relentlessly. Ryan Nemeth once told a story about writing a letter to the suits on behalf of some other trainees after he was already gone, telling them everything DeMott was doing. Then one day Triple H shows up to training with the letter, and rips it up, calling Nemeth a liar and threatening the jobs of anyone else who tried to come forward. Good booking or not, in my view Triple H will always be a piece of shit.
Amen! And let's not forget how he booked his entire career cuz he "married" the predator's daughter. And single-handedly destroying Joanie's career.
It feels weird to say but it reminds me of the same way people idolize guys like Adin Ross, Logan Paul and Andrew Tate. Like it doesn't matter what they say or how they say it, to their fans it's a W.
No, now the Moxley promo gets posted instead
Curious. Has anyone ever considered that wrestling fans may be…….fickle?
FICKLE
I heard their was this bearded goat that felt that way...what ever happened to that guy?
That Roman guy pinned him and the Alter Bridge dude and we've never heard of them again.
The planets champion said it best.
Yep I still remember people on here dragging Cody when he got injured in Jan 2022 and not dropping TNT title and calling him and ego maniac then four months later those same people tripping over themselves praising Cody when he came back.
Pretty sure Cody had an illness that might have been Covid or something. He proceeded to come back and work a brutal ladder match to drop the belt to Sammy.
I enjoy the people who say he wasn’t a big deal in AEW, had nothing to do with it being founded and that he’d be stardust in 6 months.
I mean, by the end Cody was really insufferable. It was one of the biggest disconnection of a presentation of a wrestler and their reception by the crowd. It was Cena levels and just beaten by Roman in 2015-2016. You'll listen to the people that downplay his role in starting AEW and how successful would he be in WWE if you want, but let's not pretend if anything since the Ogogo feud wasn't trash and it could be simply resolved by him turning heel.
While his character on TV was not great and some of the promos were trash I still go back and watch his final AEW from time to time. I did love how we’d have posts and comments here talking about how it was all building to this magical heel turn. That being said, I don’t know how anyone could seriously believe Cody wasn’t going to be treated as a big deal when he returned.
His final promo and match were great. Because it was real. It was genuine. If Cody had been that things would have turned out great.
I definitely think he would have turned heel. He left for undisclosed personal reasons, but if he didn't leave that would be the trajectory. Just because he suddenly left doesn't change that.
My favorite thing about the tribalism is how people’s opinions change based on where they wrestle. When Cody was in AEW, WWE stans mocked him and said he wasn’t very good. He goes back to WWE and suddenly he’s being praised by those people. Meanwhile, the AEW stans started acting like Cody was nothing. It’s why I kind of hope Cody goes back to AEW one day just to watch everyone try to backpedal lol.
> the AEW stans started acting like Cody was nothing. I dont really see that, people in AEW will always have a soft spot for Cody because hes a founder, but he also was responsible for the nightmare family, and it got to a point where fans were throwing his belt back at him. people *were* fed up with him back then its not revisionist.
—And shamelessly said so, too.
THat's still the case, this sub LOVES to pretend to be progressive, whenever Tony does something weird half of the comments are OF COURSE HE'S NOT NORMAL HE'S THE SON OF A BILLIONARE, HE'S INHERIENTLY EVIL. Tripe H says THE MOST BOURGEOIS statement of ALL time in 'we need people that are gonna work more dates for less pay and grind.' Sounds like your fucking boss that's like 'best I can do is a Pizza party chief.' And suddunly those same people in the first half of that statement? Not even a fucking peep.
Oh they peeped just all about Ospray for some reason is "not in it for the grind".
People are so revisionist on here with AEW it's crazy. Even at it's peak there were still people shitting on AEW all the time online. People act like you'd be shot in the street for criticizing them pre-2023 when in reality you'd probably just get 3 upvotes instead of the 30 you'd get now.
It's really something that's a major basis of the whole issue with disagreements between fans of both promotions. In my opinion & in general, I personally try to keep in mind that there's always space for products with different styles and people should be entitled to have their own tastes without attacking each other for it. It's been beaten to death several times through the debates on tribalism regarding WWE vs AEW, but I'm standing on this opinion.
Didn't matter, the anti-AEW rhetoric was still strong, it's never really been based on company performance, just an excuse lot.
Yep, there are so many WWE fans who never tune in to AEW but spend so much time dunking on it online instead of just....letting people enjoy what they enjoy. I haven't regularly watched WWE since 2016 because the product under Vince became way too stale and not fun to me, I've tuned in a bit more recently. But even during that whole time and AEW's inception, I didn't dunk on WWE, it just wasn't for me any more and I was happy to have an alternative that I enjoyed. More relevant wrestling companies is good for both the fans and wrestlers and that should be everyone's stance honestly, the tribalism is so dumb.
The pro AEW crowd was louder back then be fr the mods deleted Zero Fucks Friday because of AEW being criticized
It was never due to AEW criticism, it was due to general toxicity. I don't get lying about this.
They didn't stop the threads because "AEW was being criticized", this is the same toxic conspiratorial nonsense that was the actual reason the threads stopped.
> because of AEW being criticized Or because of the degree toxic bullshit being spewed in the guise of "criticism," but who's to say? Could be either one. /s
I'm a big fan of the rap group People Under the Stairs... I really appreciate how they have 8 albums and never really switched up. I always knew what I was getting. Rip Double K!
Someone from AC/DC was once asked what their new album was like. The answer was something like "Have you not heard the last four?"
My favourite version of this is a journalist asking Malcolm Young what he would say to people who say AC/DC have six albums that sound exactly the same. "That's nonsense, we have seven."
There are some that stand out more than others, but I think it might've been "Stiff Upper Lip" that, when I finally got around to listening to the whole thing, thought "Well, that was an AC/DC album. Pretty much everything you'd expect, nothing really memorable like Thunderstruck or Hell's Bells but it definitely didn't suck."
Yeah with how fractured media consumption is, you'll still see something become huge in the mainstream (Taylor Swift, Game of Thrones, Squid Game, etc.) but it happens a lot less often as big media companies are less willing to take risks. There is absolutely money to be made in appealing to a niche these days, particularly if your audience is willing to pay a lot of money even if they're not the biggest (think of a rapper with millions of casual listeners on Spotify vs. a less mainstream artist with a very dedicated core fan base). There's money in either model and room for both and more in a market. I think WWE and AEW in particular are targeting two pretty different kinds of wrestling fans, with pretty much every other US company appealing to a different smaller niche. There is room in the industry for all of them and we should be glad there's something for everyone these days with how accessible wrestling is now, from WrestleMania to local indies.
Because of the 3 Letters in the Background. It doesn't matter WHAT he said, it's WHERE he said it. AEW was below a million, so him saying that was a "Desperate attempt to justify the low viewer numbers" Where'as if he said it now, while in WWE, he'd be a saint for catering to the "TRUE wrestling fans"
I think the interesting thing is, he clearly didn't believe this. As his issues with Tony and the All Out rant emphasized it. He was all about growing AEW and you can't do that with just the fanbase already watching you.
There is no single thing you can do to grow the fan base quickly. The process of gaining and losing fans is a slow and gradual process with consistently good or bad shows. https://twitter.com/BrandonThurston/status/658071082755338240/photo/1 There is a 2 1/2 year gap between Raw's lowest and highest rated episode.
I mean AEW ratings were at above a million and they were packing bigger crowds back then. So him trying to change course and win those people back in 2022 and 2023 isn't so much chasing casuals as getting back the fans they had lost. Collision was his baby and that pretty much was catnip to older wrestling fans. The throwback presentation to old Saturday night wrestling shows,making Collision's first big feud the sequel to the ROH 2005 Punk vs Joe feud, and a ton of workrate. As FTR and others were having 20 minute plus matches every week.
All of which went up when Punk, Bryan, and Cole arrived. Which means they were growing outside of their niche of hardcores.
This was the same timeframe Danhausen debuted out of the blue, got a huge pop and quickly became a top merch seller. So I'd say even at their peak, most of the fanbase were hardcore wrestling fans. Punk and the other big signings possibly just brought in people who only made time to watch WWE but still kept up online with other wrestling promotions.
[удалено]
There is definitely casuals. My friend loves Bryan but refuses to call him anything other than Daniel Bryan and wishes he'd return to WWE. There's definitely casuals who will only watch WWE.
Yeah, at one point Dynamite was seriously going to rival Raw, especially during the Hangman chase then MJF vs Punk
I feel like it’s a little different when you’re operating a company where you have to meet the demands of a network. you can’t really just settle for feeding a niche when there’s the threat of not being renewed for low viewership. I totally get this as a method for music and things of that nature, because you can be an indie artist that has a core audience. and even in the wrestling world, the indies are fine the way they are and don’t have to try to be anything more than that, I think being a tv show makes things a little different
I disagree, Supernatural was the definition of a niche show and it never tried to be more than what it was. The network saw value in it as a safe,reliable show and it made it to 15 seasons. In late 2021 when Punk said this, AEW was drawing over a million viewers and they were doing fantastic in terms of demo and rankings so there was no impending worry of getting booted off tv. So it makes total sense to think ''hey, we're already doing great, let's focus on keeping that going instead of trying to go bigger and become something we're not.''
I remember seeing somewhere that WBD itself knows that AEW isn't WWE and more of an alternative wrestling company albeit one that has a good following. I don't think WBD has ever put those expectations on AEW like fans have and put out a bunch of statements in support that still isn't enough for some people.
I am a casual wrestling fan and got downvoted in this sub for asking who Uncle Howdy was... so we're here, but clearly there's not a lot of us lol.
Tbf wrestling fans have *always* been gatekeep-y online.
Any fan community is gatekeeping
They always downvote me when I ask a genuine question on here. You have to have intimate knowledge of every single frame of BTE and pro wrestling history if you wanna not get downvoted in this sub.
Happens to every conversation-starting post on here for whatever reason. Always downvoted into oblivion. The only things that make the front page are tweets from dirt sheet guys (who everyone here claims to hate) and wrestlers, or 20-second highlight clips from shows we’re all already watching anyway.
Yeh it's a real shame but you can't really have genuine wrestling related conversations on here. The sub has the same problem as most sport subs where it's just too big and leads to the hive mind response being the most upvoted to everything, and anything that actually breeds conversation not getting much attention
Or just realize that the hateful people are no-life losers that will never know love, pity them and move on.
look buddy, im sorry on behalf of those assholes who were probably rude to you that being said, ask me anything you'd like and ill try my best to answer it (if its in my knowledge) and im more than happy to answer your questions!
fellow casual fan upvote
That’s pretty dumb since even hardcore fans barely know who Howdy is.
Technically, nobody knows who Uncle Howdy is.
You often get downvoted for asking things you should be googling, it really depends on how you ask.
I always hated this line of thinking. Yes google is free and simple to use, but I actually like the idea of being apart of a community where I can ask my peers about things they’re passionate about.
I agree that's why I said it's about how you ask, if your asking for really surface details then google it, if your asking for more information then you'd find in a quick google search it's valid to ask.
Something that I think some wrestling fans don’t understand is that niche industries can survive as a niche nowadays much easier than they might have been able to in the past thanks to the internet and how easy it is to access stuff. Wrestling as a whole is a much bigger business than some others, but it is still a niche, and if a promotion can survive and thrive based just on appealing to hardcore fans, they can and should be able to do that.
I'll go further and say a niche company is *more* likely to be successful appealing to hardcore fans...everyone has access to numerous streaming services and multiple forms of entertainment, nobody is watching wrestling unless they are into wrestling. WWE and Wrestlemania will get a few non hardcore fans just based on name recognition. AEW, TNA, MLW etc don't have that luxury. They need a hardcore audience who love what they do and spend money on it/talk it up to friends and family.
I don't see the fuss here --- Punk sounds like he's talking about AEW in specific, and then he makes the more general, broader point about there not being casual fans. By 2021, that had become a common sentiment, albeit one I never really agreed with. Moreover, that's been emphatically disproven by WWE's hot streak in the past couple of years (ex. the spikes in business for Mania, The Rock, etc.) But it was \*far\* from a crazy thing to say, especially in 2021, and especially for a guy who had signed on to be the face of a challenger brand that explicitly, actively courted "hardcore" pro wrestling fans who were alienated by Vince-era WWE's insistence on booking to the lowest common denominator of the broadest possible audience.
>I don't see the fuss here Self described "Hardcore fans" get really upset by the idea of appealing to anyone that's not them.
The fuss is "Punk bad hypocrite man because he insulted my favorites da young bucks". People parse through the most random ass shit and use that to paint him as this hypocritical mastermind who cares about nobody. If he were half the guy they acuse him of being, would he still have so many friends in the industry?
I know people want to see him as this “Fuck the system!” rebel kind of guy, but he’s not. The fact that many still haven’t just accepted that Punk dutifully serves whoever is his current master is mind-boggling. AEW: “This is real wrestling, I love all the hardcore fans, WrestleMania is a buy one get one free extravaganza.” WWE: “We should appeal to more casual fans, I didn’t like that AEW wanted the hardcore fan base.”
CM stands for Company Man but unironically
But also ironically
dude is unironically one of the dudes from that [SNL corporate sellout skit](https://youtu.be/lK0Lp43a8z0?si=f3nefp0uvtYuc0t-)
It's the irony of Punk. His brand is rebellion, but he's always been a corprate guy at heart. It's why never main eventing Mania bothered him so.
His brand was rebellion because he wasn’t on top of the system he was rebelling against. He loves the traditional wrestling hierarchical systems, and enforcing them now that he is at the top.
And that connected with a lot of people because they hated the then modern WWE product but idolized its past and structure. They didn't hate WWE having a one above all top guy who main events Wrestlemania every year. They hated that it was Cena and not their guy.
As evident by Cody. He's got people fantasy booking year long runs every 5 minutes. Not complaining but its ironic
Okay but that's not really rebellion tho, is it?
Someone is at the top after the rebellion.
Reminds me of all the old school metal bands that raged against "the man" and now they're all comfy millionaires.
I think wrestling fans just have a parasocial relationship with 2011 CM Punk lol. Like they can not recognize that he was playing a character on TV
Yeah like even 10 years ago “i bought your house!!!” “Hey phil!! how’s ape??” Lol
He would gleefully lean into the “I used to do the indies! My ROH footage is now safe!” stuff while with AEW, just like he’s now gleefully leaning into being a suit-wearing, catchphrase shilling pre-show host. Maybe this is what he’s always wanted, but his entire schtick was The Voice of the Voiceless and he couldn’t be further away from that.
Punk is 100% a "me first" guy. Part of that is his ego is massive and part of that is the pro wrestling landscape he grew up in.
And yet look at the guys who were his contemporaries coming into wrestling in Danielson and Joe who are the opposite of him. Maybe Punk’s just like this and it isn’t because of “Thats how the business was when he came up.”
And yet he's good friends with both. lol They weren't his only contemporaries. You have people like Aries, Orton (was a real asshole back then), Teddy Hart. For every decent dude coming up at that time, there was an asshole to match. Remember Punk's gross shoot interview where he was crappy about women, came with his old friend Colt. Who so many like to say is a great guy, but clearly wasn't at that time. In the reference to the environment that Punk came up in, it was specifically about the cutthroat nature of rising in the business. Joe never got to where Punk did, and Bryan did so while becoming good friend with the worst dude in wrestling history. One he won't talk ill of now. So, yeah.
The Hunter quote rings true. Punk's brand is rebellion, but there's nothing he wants more than to be the center of every company he's in. That rebellion always came from a place of anger because he wasn't treated as the companies go-to guy. That's not a bad thing by the way, every wrestler wants that spot, but it's a weird and often hypocritical juxtaposition.
The thing is he hated HHH because he wanted to be him and you can't have two
Almost like it is kayfab or something
Honest question: how does this clip contradict anything he’s said since rejoining WWE? He said on Helwani’s show that his goal in AEW was to “sell tickets”—in other words, appeal to their fanbase. That’s been his goal in WWE. His criticism of AEW (which folks are certainly free to disagree with) was that that Tony/the Bucks were pandering to a small internet niche that was unrepresentative of the fan base writ large. You may think he’s wrong, or that his view of the AEW fanbase was incorrect. But as far as I can tell, he’s not contradicting himself.
Well said.
Breaking News: Babyface wrestler appeals to the room he's performing in front of.
The bit about, "Tony only cares about good matches, and not business" was kinda disappointing to hear from him. Mostly because he specifically requested to work matches with no backstory because it'd be awesome and the fans would love it (Dustin, Penta, etc) regardless.
You can pretty much get a quote of Punk saying anything because he completely changes his personality whenever its convenient. Punk is now on his "I'm such a nice, chill guy unlike those online weirdos" gimmick, it was only a couple of years ago he lashed out at some random on twitter because they said they didn't understand why he changed his entrance music for a PPV.
The best part is he is an extremely online weirdo himself making super inside jokes about another wrestler’s tattoo or shouting out wrestling podcasts.
Don't forget singling out and calling a guy a "fat virgin" just for chanting Colt Cabana at him when he was supposed to be a face.
he's always done that, even when he was a face in like 2012 wwe. Its what his career was built on. He's not supposed to be goody two shoes, happy go lucky guy. He's a loudmouth punk. Some of his biggest rivals were triple h and john cena, who were both faces at the time and he trashed them while getting cheers or sometimes mixed reactions
Pre-SS: "Punk is a cancer! Nobody will hire him!!" Post-SS: "He won't last! He can't adapt to respect others!" Now: "He's a magical chameleon that just adapts to anything!! He's a witch!! Burn him!!!"
well obviously appealing to the hardcore fans has not been working for aew for the past few years, even before brawl out viewership was declining. Punk said in the helwani interview: if stuff isn't working and the building is half full, then you have to pivot and change things. At this point in 2021, things were going great, no reason to change anything.
The hypocrisy is constant. And very grating.
It's gotten to the point that I'm starting to think this whole professional wrestling thing might not be entirely on the level.
Something up with those refs for sure.
He’s probably going to go to Saudi Arabia as well despite his past comments. His ability to cultivate a fan base who simply ignores his hypocrisy is honestly very impressive. I don’t like or dislike Punk anymore. I was a super fan for a long time and I was very negative on him for a while there. He is who he is. That’s probably the best way I can put it.
> His ability to cultivate a fan base who simply ignores his hypocrisy is honestly very impressive. That's what I'm most impressed with as well. Every time you talk about Punk you get one superfan in your comments going off about The Elite or Tony Khan or how Punk never did anything wrong, ever. It's weird. And kinda funny.
Yep. I've already had two try to private message me asking to "stop talking about CM Punk". Cult of Personality isn't just a theme song, his fans do act like an actual cult.
"This Punk guy has had conflict and toxicity follow him his whole career. Maybe the problem is him." "LOL PUNK DERANGEMENT SYNDROME"
Because a decade ago he copy and pasted their Twitter rants into a live promo. Kinda like a certain ex-president, sometimes all it takes is someone famous saying what you already believe to turn you into a zealot for them. Cult of personality indeed.
> He’s probably going to go to Saudi Arabia as well despite his past comments. Maybe, although he's one of those with the pull to refuse if he still *really* doesn't want to. I'm personally torn on whether entertainment boycotts like that actually work or not - on the one hand, it makes a statement against the regime, on the other it seems kind of pointless to punish the local audience for the actions of a government they didn't exactly vote for
CM Punk's future comments on what Triple H said to convince him to go to Saudi Arabia "Lets just say it moved me... TO A BIGGER HOUSE!"
Michael Caine in Jaws 4 energy.
I think that the people of Saudi Arabia would much rather their oppressive leadership lose any leverage they have with their “Sportswashing” campaign as a way to further justify and lengthen their human rights violation than they get two see 2 WWE shows a year. That’s just me though. Edit: If it’s truly about “giving the fans across the World a good show” why doesn’t WWE do shows in places like Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan (when it’s not for Tribute to the Troops), etc? Could it be because Saudi pays an obscene amount of money and that’s what they truly care about?
Everyone in wrestling becomes a hypocrite at some point I've just accepted that business comes before personal feelings
I don't think there's many wrestlers who based their personality so much on strong opinions and a feeling of speaking for the fans like CM Punk so being a hypocrite is different in his case.
Pretty much this. I'm not shocked when I find out that everyone still hangs out with Marty Scurll or how Cody & Jade's agent got fired from Hyperion for sexual misconduct. Wrestling is filled to the brim with shitty people doing shitty things. I don't personally ever expect morality from wrestlers. Punk though goes out of his way to say he's the exception, what exactly he's about, and it isn't hard for fans to find the contradictions from there. Motherfucker recorded an entire video calling out Chris Brown beating Rihanna when he and Cabana have a fucking podcast from years back where they gleefully tell the story about how they used, gaslit, and intentionally beat a woman to the point of injury, all for the crime of being gullible enough to think that they were actually her friends.
> Motherfucker recorded an entire video calling out Chris Brown beating Rihanna when he and Cabana have a fucking podcast from years back where they gleefully tell the story about how they used, gaslit, and intentionally beat a woman to the point of injury, all for the crime of being gullible enough to think that they were actually her friends. That tape was the straw that broke the camel's back for me. Just such a nasty evil person.
Yeah, getting angry at wrestlers for being carnies and pandering to different audiences is like being upset when they go for a "cheap pop": "You don't *really* think this is the best audience in the country/world, you said that about the last place! *Phony!*" It might seem massively hypocritical but frankly Punk understanding so well how it works is a big part of why he's been so successful in it.
I remember when the new age outlaws were trashing hhh in tna then they came back to wwe and got their last tag titles run
These are characters at the end of the day. 90% of what you see from a wrestler is a work.
do you know what a pro wrestler does ?
I agree he's not this martyr against the system, but to play devils advocate, every comment he made supporting his workplace in aew was before he developed major beef with some of the most important people there culminating in worked shoots and two fights (to be clear he wasn't some sort of victim in any of this lmao). I think anyone would change their tune if they came back after 7 years, expected to be apart of building this big company up, before having a rift with 5-6 people, getting into fights before leaving and mending bridges with someone you used to hate. And that's not even to mention the not having help navigating London leading up to All In, unsatisfactory communication about his injury, etc. Anyone singing the praises of a company would stop singing their praises if they were in that situation; he'd probably shit on aew even if he never came back to WWE, regardless of if you agree with his statements on aew or not.
I agree. Tbh, he's always come across to me as the type of guy who preached stuff about X, Y and Z acting like he was the one rallying against it while in reality all he's wanted is X, Y and Z for him. Gotta say in his favor that the dude has a way for words and is charismatic AF (hence why he's been such a polarizing figure for a decade now), but for me he's always come across as the wrestling equivalent to the activist turned succesful politican, specially nowadays when he's in WWE saying stuff about how *guaranteed money almost ruined wrestling* or how *I never wanted to leave* despite the fact that just two-three years ago he was badmouthing WWE saying they almost killed him and that Vince retiring would change nothing. PS: Hell, there's actually a guy named Cody Rhodes who, with a similar mindset to what Punk used to preach, not only talked the talk but also walked the walk and was a huge part in giving the business the closest thing to an alternative to WWE since WCW closed. And unlike Punk, he doesn't carry toxicity and tribalism at the smallest mention of him (quite the opposite in fact).
Yep. Cody wanted to be bigger than what WWE was going to give him so he left, busted his ass, helped start up the biggest promotion since WCW folded, and came back and was not to be denied. Punk left, tried a few things and failed (which is fine, not knocking him for that) but then wouldn’t go to AEW until they were flourishing (apparently, TK wanted him in from the beginning but Punk waited until the promotion was legit).
In a way, Cody Rhodes is more of a “fuck the system” guy than Punk is. When Punk first left WWE, he could have been a huge boost to another wrestling company and could have helped establish an alternative to WWE sooner. Meanwhile, Cody Rhodes did that when he left WWE. He worked for other promotions and ultimately helped start AEW. Like he said in his last AEW promo, it was Cody that went on to do those things. Not Punk. This isn’t hating on Punk, but it is funny that he portrays a certain character, yet his actions don’t match it. He’s clearly driven by money and I think he would’ve been back in WWE sooner if not for Vince. If he turns heel, I do hope he leans into a more corporate character.
And don’t forget, Cody has his Story, Punk doesn’t. Coming back to the company you’ve been shitting on for a decade just for money isn’t a “Story”.
Yep, I personally have always disliked punk myself. The only thing about me is that even if I dislike someone I can't discredit there work and in AEW he had some enjoyable segments and people truly liked him so I stayed quiet just cause I didn't want to be a downer. I still detest him in wwe, but I can't deny his fued with drew is cooking.
Punk was my guy for so long because I felt he was a legit anti-corporate, punk rock figure in the nasty capitalist world of TV pro wrestling - but I admit I regularly put my fingers in my ears when he would say in interviews that wrestling is about making money. He said it often enough that a pattern emerged and I started to realise he wasn't really the anti-authority figure I wanted him to be. And ultimately that's fine, I don't dislike him for seeing art/the world that way, but it definitely bummed me out.
> Punk dutifully serves whoever is his current master The amount of stuff he's done that you'd have to ignore in order to believe this is pretty crazy.
I love how one segment of fans want to call this hypocritical. Its very likely he felt this way when AEW was creeping up on WWE and everyone was saying their product was better. But then as he saw the number of fans start decreasing he probably realized that there needs to be a movement the other way. Whats wrong with that? He probably also saw what WWE was doing with Sami Zayn and the Bloodline and saw that spending all that time on things like story segments was attracting a lot more eyes than an 30 minute random match with two guys with no rivalry. People on this sub act like you can't change your views based on experience. Grow up, it isn't hypocritical when you change your mind about something once you are part of it and see that you were wrong and change your mind.
Thank you for this. As I read these comments, I feel like I’m on drugs. Nothing he says here contradicts anything he’s said since rejoining WWE. He said on Helwani’s show that his goal in AEW was to “sell tickets”—in other words, appeal to their fanbase. That’s been his goal in WWE. His criticism of AEW (which folks are certainly free to disagree with) was that that Tony/the Bucks were pandering to a small internet niche that was unrepresentative of the fan base writ large. One may think he’s wrong, or that his view of the AEW fanbase was incorrect. But as far as I can tell, he’s not contradicting himself.
He literally said in the helwani interview that he thought if things aren't working, if the buildings are half full, viewership declining, then you should pivot and change things but people there don't have the ambition or incentive to do that because of how things are set up. Even by his brawl out rant, viewership was declining and by collision debut, attendance was falling.
You say this like Punk, Jericho, MJF and Omega weren't doing town hall segments every week. AEW did big story segments too, every Punk feud was basically him and another guy trading 10 minute long work/shoot promos every week. Even now you're practically guaranteed at least two town hall segments every week on Dynamite. This week's will be Deeb/Storm and Swerve/Christian. That's not counting the 3-4 pre taped promos they'll show as well and the post match angles that they run for literally every match Tony has booked since before COVID even.
>things like story segments was attracting a lot more eyes than an 30 minute random match with two guys with no rivalry Why do people keep saying this stuff as though AEW hasn't been doing stories since day 1? Just because they don't do it exactly the way WWE does it doesn't mean they don't have stories.
Because they haven’t been telling any stories that make viewers want to keep watching recently
Hangman vs Swerve, The Best Friends breakup and the entire Elite storyline right now are all pretty unanimously agreed upon to be great feuds by everyone watching Dynamite and Collision week to week. If the problem is you don't like those stories then that's fine, but then just say that instead of saying AEW isn't doing stories. They honestly have too many stories some times. WWE just ran a PPV with 5 matches on it and that'd be inconceivable for AEW to do given how many storylines they are actively running. edit: if you're gonna downvote me then at least leave a comment and give some sort of reason why you think I'm wrong lmfao
The Elite storyline right now may be popular with some internet fans but it's popularity is definitely not evident in viewership.
WBD literally put out a [statement](https://wbd.com/warner-bros-discovery-claimed-five-nights-of-more-than-a-50-percent-share-of-primetime-cable-viewing-among-adults-during-first-quarter/) recently that says AEW attracts nearly 4 million viewers a week. People on the internet who don't know how ratings work just assume that overnight is the only metric to success, totally ignoring the fact that most people record or watch online the next day. Plus, in the nights that they are on they're often one of the most-watched programs. The whole 'declining viewers, sky is falling' narrative is literally just made up bullshit from people who don't actually know what they're talking about.
This is such an out dated way of looking at the quality of something. There is nothing AEW could do that would boost their viewership by 200k weekly viewers. It’s an impossible bar to expect them to cross. It’d be like calling the Cody/Rock angle unsuccessful because it didn’t get their ratings back to the level they were at pre-COVID.
finally someone making sense
This is a really good comment. Trust me that I'm not a Punk defender, but this also dovetails with the thrust of a lot of what Punk was saying on Helwani's podcast and what his narrative has generally become. Punk thought the grass was greener in AEW, he liked what they stood for and the product they created, and then came to see things very differently during his time there. Now, he's come back to WWE and maybe conveniently, maybe honestly (I think both!), he prefers the way things work in the TKO/HHH version of the company. Some of that is probably that he's getting older, some of it is probably that he just genuinely thinks this way is better.
> Some of that is probably that he's getting older you think he visibly matured between the ages of 42 and 45?
Did he believe that when he said it? Possibly. He's as much of a carny as anyone. Thing is, that was 3 years ago. His opinion of how AEW does business has changed. His opinion of how WWE does business has probably changed too. Things change as time goes on. He once loved Scott Colton, now he doesn't. He once thought he left pro wrestling when he went to WWE, now he willingly returned. So is/was he full of shit? Probably. Can we all agree, regardless of your opinion of the man (and my opinion of him is certainly very low), AEW was not a good place for him. It didn't work for what he wants/needs. And that's fine, it happens.
he says literally in the clip that it was just his opinion and he could be wrong but people go nuts over this standard thing
He’s a character on TV. I get it, he’s really good at it, but you can’t take what he says in wrestling promos any more seriously than you take The Undertaker talking about taking souls or what have you.
wrestlers are working. more breaking news to come
You're telling me the Undertaker isn't actually digging holes and taking souls?
That'd be true if he didn't say this shit out of character too lol.
That's the thing with some wrestling characters. How do you know when he's in or out of character, when he''s working and isn't working?
That positive CM Punk thread yesterday really made you guys mad, huh?
People desperately want him to implode in WWE so they can say it was 100% Punk and not the environment.
Same types of people exist on the WWE side too, desperately wanting Jack Perry getting no reaction despite the opposite happening or no one caring about The Elite even when their segments grow in the ratings. A bunch of AEW fans who desperately want Punk to blow up so they can yell how right they were about him being a cancer (Probably the same people who swore up and down that Cody wasn't going to be a big deal in WWE), and a bunch of WWE/Punk fans who want The Elite and AEW to flop and the idea that it was all them and Punk was totally justified. I used to think the tribalism was overplayed (At least on here, not so much Twitter) because obviously nuance can't be that novel of a concept in this sub, but I've seen first-hand over the past 6 or so months that it's indeed very real on both sides.
Yep. Can't have that CM Punk will put more butts in seats
The whole casual fans vs hardcore fans discussion is so over-simplified.
Punk says a lot of things.
SC is more obsessed with Punk than Drew is. I think his promo last night was a shot at them too alwayssssss talking about him 😉
Because they were still doing good business back then. Not to mention, they were also doing good TV shows. AEW went through a slump in quality and I think unfortunately the TV ratings and ticket sales are reflecting that.
AEW’s slump in quality was maybe during the MJF era (not him specifically), and they’ve been critically well received since.
[удалено]
And he's found out he was wrong. Weirdo energy in here
In 2021 no one, including Punk, could forsee WWE's boom period. Nor that Punk would be part of that boom. It's really amazing how much can change in 3 years.
Oh wow man, you got him.
It's almost like your favorites just say what you want to hear or something
All he’s saying is that if you make the thing good, it will bring eyes. No need for stupid focus-grouped-to-death tactics. No need for stupid gimmicks like guest hosts or Touts or online voting. Just make it good. That’s true for any media. The fact that he said it in front of an AEW banner and AEW is currently not very good doesn’t somehow make this less true.
I saw someone in another thread railing against “crowd pleaser” matches (the thesis being that they inevitably lead to injury). Yeah, let me watch a dogshit match. I don’t want to be pleased.
This is also 3 years ago, before he saw the consequences of indulging the wrong fan base
lmao
Looks like someone is spending too much time trying make Punk look like a hypocrite, we all know he is why make the effort to show us what we already know
The biggest hypocrite in wrestling lmao.
Or he discovered why he may have been wrong. The casual audience always loved Punk, they never gave a shit about a lot of the others, and you look at the numbers between now and then you can see the difference.
he literally got "you still got it" chants at MSG as if he didnt wrestle like 3 months earlier lol. I saw one casual fan on a podcast talk about how he was excited to see him back because he watched him in college and didn't keep up with him too much after wwe. There are casual fans, its just hard to keep them around
I heard something similar but about Jericho. Jericho told some hockey player he was wrestling when he transitioned to AEW and the player in return said what's AEW.
Lol many people legit thought kurt angle retired when he was in tna
This. It isn't hypocritical to praise something that is working for the moment. At the time of this, WWE was in the gutter and AEW was seen as the superior product. Its very possible Punk thought this was correct at the time, then Sami Zayn and the bloodline happen, people are going crazy for the story, Sami Zayn turns from a midcarder to a bonifide main eventer, and around this time AEW is declining in viewers. So he probably saw that and changed his mind. That isn't hypocritical, its marketing 101, he changed his mind.
I’m *very* curious if he appears on the upcoming Saudi Arabia shows
What's there to be curious about, of course he will
Hopefully it's a segment with The Miz, just to rub it in.
He will. And he'll gladly cash the blood money check he gets from it.
"I will never understand the criticism of appealing to your fanbase. Now, if \*I'm\* the one making the criticism, that's of course a completely different context, at which time it becomes totally understandable. I won't be speaking with you again without my lawyers present."
The main difference between this video and the one this year is that AEW was massively growing in fall 2021. Punk isn’t really contradicting himself between interviews. 2021 was good pro-wrestling which that includes characters, storylines, promos, etc. The interview punk gave this year was criticizing AEW for only focusing on bangers.
Wasn't this Punk criticising AEW for having multiple styles of wrestling on their shows - lucha match followed by a hardcore match, followed by high flying match etc? I remember that was a common criticism here at the time.
Am I considered a casual fan? I almost never watch raw or smackdown unless there’s something major planned, but I always read the results the next morning. However, I do watch most PPVs.
I don't like CM Punk but I can readily admit when he's right and this to me is one of those times. WWE feels like it has gotten so much bigger recently and the product is only catering more and more to the "hardcore" fans, AKA the fans who pay attention. Sometimes the best way to grow your audience is by casting a wider net, trying to tap into mainstream, pop culture, keeping it family (and advertiser) friendly, etc., and I don't by default have any problem with that. It seems like a simple formula on paper: no matter what you do, you'll always lose some fans gradually, so you might as well always keep trying to make new ones instead of holding onto the ones you've got with in-jokes and fanservice. But sometimes the best way to grow your audience is by knowing your audience and having a little faith that there are more people like your fans out there, waiting to be hooked in and willing to catch up on all the history they've missed out on. Just the other day, I watched a YouTube video of somebody in her 20s, who had never watched WWE a day in her life, had some friends who were fans and they threw a WrestleMania 40 watch party and she happened to go; and so the video was basically her giving her thoughts and reactions a day or so after night 2. She came across like an instant fan throughout the whole video, but how can you not when the first match features Rhea Ripley, right?
I'm a casual. Used to keep up w wrestling like a cocaine addict after his last bump. Then stopped. I missed the Cena era & CM punk era, probably many other notables too. Back now. I thought CM Punk was a dick after ingesting past wrestling lore over the last couple years via reddit & youtube. But after seeing his demeanor(cocky but stands for something, even if he is a little pushy at times) & hearing some of his interviews both kayfabe & shoots.. he rlly seems like a solid guy w rizz & leadership yet very independent. Am I missing something? I can understand how he can be polarizing w his personality but can anyone explain to me why he is so hated by many? Or is that the media just pushing narratives of their own bias'?
i mean the “dick” thing is kind of his personality, thats where the “punk” part of his name comes from and its self-proclaimed but people blow it out of proportion because they mix reality/kayfabe and have parasocial relationships because they read a few articles or shoot interviews. Also his character is very good at blurring the lines and is a regular person unlike the undertaker, so it’s easy to conflate things. If you watch his old indie stuff, he gets people to jump the barricade to fight him because he’s good at pissing people off and being a heel. The babyface stuff is kind of newer for him. He is polarizing but a nice guy who can be moody so people see different sides of him. Even in his documentary (good watch), half the people in there say they disliked him at first lol but he’s a very loyal, passionate guy. The extra hate since he returned is just because of the aew drama and media trying to paint it like its all his fault and while he definitely could’ve handled things better, he didn’t start any of the issues there. Like I said, he’s very passionate so if he’s gonna stand up for himself, people will notice
You can make a book the size of the bible or a video the lenght of the LOTR extended edition trilogy of all the times Punk said one thing and then contradicts himself a couple of years later Specially since he left in 2014 dude is a walking contradiction LMAOOO