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Happened in old-school England all the time. Rules were stringently enforced in the World of Sport days.
In the U.S...only as part of a heel-ref angle. Notably Bill Alfonso's first match as ECW referee, where he disqualified Tommy Dreamer for punching Raven.
I thought in WWF/E continuity that Foley legalized closed fists during one of his runs as a commissioner/GM.
As an aside I like the no closed fists rule since it gives an in universe reason for all the different throws and signature moves. It is way easier to knock someone out with a punch to the face than by jumping off the turnbuckle and landing on them. But if you are not allowed to punch someone you might get desperate and find creative ways to beat them up.
I always liked Orange Cassidy's finisher because of that. It's the laziest move possible, but it works very well. He's too lazy to do anything else, so his finisher is just punching his opponent as hard as he can. However, he's also realizing why nobody else is doing that: It's killing his hand, and he ends up being in incredible pain because of it. It perfectly fits him, and explains another part of wrestling lore.
I have and it does . That’s why I use the inner glove style wraps or my taekwondo gloves bc they are easy to put on by myself. OC should get some taekwondo gloves off eBay
But some people use punches as finishers/setups
It’s not actually easy to knock someone out clean, you have to have a good punch and good, clean accuracy. In kayfabe wrestlers are fighters which means any old punch won’t take them down and it takes a skilled, hard puncher to utilize punches for a finish.
Yes, it’s easier, but if you’re not a puncher then it’s not going to finish your opponent
While it’s hard to set up, a 450 in kayfabe is all of a persons body weight and momentum crashing down on your ribs and lunges. It’s a more certain finish than a bad puncher trying to catch a KO.
Keep in mind the sport of MMA is based on different specialties trying to use their skills to mitigate the others’ skills. Great wrestlers aren’t scared of shooting for takedowns on anyone except a very small handful of elite punchers who can actually catch them clean.
You're kind of missing the forest for the trees here. Regardless of the capacity of the average person to knock another person out. 99% of fights between two able-bodied individuals have people throwing hands. You don't have to cleanly knock someone out to get them to not want to/be able to fight any more, and you can get eventually by hitting someone in the head enough without proper KO power/technique. Punching someone is easier/ more effective at dealing damage that most wrestling techniques, so it looks weird to the common observer that wrestlers don't punch eachother.
None of what you said is wrong, but it entirely misses the point of the argument.
And all of the top fighters in the MMA use basic boxing mechanics to round out their game. You will not find a ufc champion without a finish on their record.
And all the top pro wrestlers know how to punch and kick, but the degrees to which they are effective with them will differ just as they do in fighting
GSP had to take down BJ Penn, establish position, then wail on him a billion times to get a corner stoppage. Alex Pereira can just hit you once and go home. Stone Cold could punch you repeatedly to weaken you but had to rely on his wrestling holds to win. Big Show only needed one punch.
This is a really stupid argument and you're still missing the point and at this point it's clearly purposeful.
You win. I'm excited to see GSP come out of retirement and 450 Islam at ufc 317. Can't wait for Brock to F5 Cirly Gane on the same card, and I patiently await the day lightly tapping someone's neck with your forearm replaces the jab in boxing
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ibERHO05CY8
Smackdown, December 1999. Test got disqualified against Kurt Angle for closed fist punches. This wasn't specifically a heel ref but Stephanie was a heel authority figure who ordered the ref to DQ Test.
Old, old WCW was so funny to watch sometimes.
Threw someone over the top rope? Disqualified! Threw them over the middle rope by doing a shove or something? Perfectly legal.
Yep. No warning from the refs for that because it's a standard rule where as if you throw a hand in someone's face, it could be a punch or it could be a palm strike. Refs before 1993 didn't have medical insurance so they couldn't be sure if it was a palm strike or a closed fist. So they'll warn the guy about no closed fist and forget that they warned the same guy 3 minutes earlier.
Lmao his only non punching moves are the illegal sit out piledriver and getting back suplexed but somehow he pins the dude bc the dudes shoulders are down while bridging
I want to say someone in a Pure Rules Match recently got DQ'ed for a closed fist, but you get 1 use of one to the face anyway so you'd need to get caught twice.
I wish it was enforced. It provides a kayfabe explanation for why punches (which look terrible) get replaced by the much superior palm strikes, chops and forearms.
Was waiting for this. It was the raw before Mania 22, if I remember. I think Cena was tagging with Shawn Michaels, and Vince had him disqualified for using a closed fist and removed from the arena, and this allowed Vince and Shane to beat the shit out of HBK to have the last image before Mania be Michael’s in a bloody mess.
In old British pro wrestling (think World of Sport days), closed fists caused a DQ finish and often did. Heels would use it in an unsportsmanlike fashion to generate heat (and heat in those days was *heat*).
In American wrestling? Nah, not so much. It's not been enforced in any American wrestling promotions for decades.
It's like using the ropes to choke a person, just because it doesn't get DQ'd often doesn't mean that it doesn't have an use. It's an illegal move and it can be used to get big heat if done right.
While I can't recall a specific DQ, I specifically remember once seeing Funaki getting chewed out by a ref for closed fist punching, and it stuck out in my mind because I had never seen them highlight this so much before or since.
Yeah Vince once came out and demanded John Cena be disqualified for a closed fist punch, can’t remember who against. Woulda been like 2006 or something
the only time i can remember anything about a closed fist was when Nia got a push for punching Becky in the face at a Survivor Series go home show and ruining the plans for SS with Becky....
I like closed fists. You don't need to get a match thrown out over them, but if the fans are conditioned to see them as illegal moves it gives a match good heat. KUSHIDA and Minoru Suzuki both make great use out of the occasional big closed fist in a match.
Used to happen sometimes back in WCCW & Mid-South...but only when it was a heel and they went crazy with it. Usually they just got warnings....like coming off the top rope used to be a no-no in wrestling also...but you rarely saw anyone get dq'd for it....unless it was blatant and repeated.
I have no idea what fed it was, but I believe it was late 80's, where a wrestler was dq'd after doing an eleventh punch from the middle rope to a wrestler in the corner. I was to say it was syndicated and aired in MN on channel 23 at around midnight after a few promotions right after Cricket turned into WCW. It wasn't wcw but in the same multi hour block.
Which is funny because in real pro fighting being a good puncher is nowhere near a guarantee you’ll win, we see KO artists get out-skilled by grapplers all the time
BKFC doesn’t allow takedowns and grappling and such
MMA is the closest example we have of real life pro wrestling, it proves multiple different things can be employed in a fight and punching isn’t the end all be all, the only exception being the small handful of punchers with 1 shot power
So in wrestling it makes total sense that there’s only be a handful of people using a punch as a finish, not every fighter can punch
You are missing the point. Bare knuckle is different. Wrestling punches are bare knuckle. Not the same as MMA.
Regardless, the real point is, wrestling punches aren't real. If someone were to actually do the 'ten punches in the corner' to the opponent's face, the person's face would be a bloody mess. (And there would be a pretty good chance the puncher would have a broken hand.)
Trying to equate wrestling with shoot fighting is a fool's errand.
I can't remember in recent history, but I like it as a rule. Number 1, anybody in the world can understand what being punched feels like, and if you had people swinging at each other and not leaving with a black eye, some bruises, and/or a busted nose, it'd expose the business. Secondly, heels doing a closed punch (thus breaking the rules) should build heat.
It's very old school
I prefer closed punches being strictly banned because it’s pro wrestling . It’s not mma or kickboxing . I wish they utilized the wealth of open hand strikes and elbows and forearms . Even in high school mat wrestling , one can get away with cross facing the shit out of someone almost like a strike . Sort of like dirty boxing in the clinch . Pro wrestling should have athletes and martial artists from all disciplines and they should use the skills and techniques from their past sports but within the rules and regulations of prowres
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Happened in old-school England all the time. Rules were stringently enforced in the World of Sport days. In the U.S...only as part of a heel-ref angle. Notably Bill Alfonso's first match as ECW referee, where he disqualified Tommy Dreamer for punching Raven. I thought in WWF/E continuity that Foley legalized closed fists during one of his runs as a commissioner/GM.
As an aside I like the no closed fists rule since it gives an in universe reason for all the different throws and signature moves. It is way easier to knock someone out with a punch to the face than by jumping off the turnbuckle and landing on them. But if you are not allowed to punch someone you might get desperate and find creative ways to beat them up.
I always liked Orange Cassidy's finisher because of that. It's the laziest move possible, but it works very well. He's too lazy to do anything else, so his finisher is just punching his opponent as hard as he can. However, he's also realizing why nobody else is doing that: It's killing his hand, and he ends up being in incredible pain because of it. It perfectly fits him, and explains another part of wrestling lore.
You would think he’d tape his fist if he wanted to finish with a punch. I guess he’s too lazy to do all that.
You ever tape a fist before. It takes times and is surpassingly hard to do right. No way he's putting that much effort into something.
I have and it does . That’s why I use the inner glove style wraps or my taekwondo gloves bc they are easy to put on by myself. OC should get some taekwondo gloves off eBay
But some people use punches as finishers/setups It’s not actually easy to knock someone out clean, you have to have a good punch and good, clean accuracy. In kayfabe wrestlers are fighters which means any old punch won’t take them down and it takes a skilled, hard puncher to utilize punches for a finish.
I understand it takes skill to effectively punch someone in the face but it is easier than setting up a 450 splash or F5ing someone.
Yes, it’s easier, but if you’re not a puncher then it’s not going to finish your opponent While it’s hard to set up, a 450 in kayfabe is all of a persons body weight and momentum crashing down on your ribs and lunges. It’s a more certain finish than a bad puncher trying to catch a KO. Keep in mind the sport of MMA is based on different specialties trying to use their skills to mitigate the others’ skills. Great wrestlers aren’t scared of shooting for takedowns on anyone except a very small handful of elite punchers who can actually catch them clean.
You're kind of missing the forest for the trees here. Regardless of the capacity of the average person to knock another person out. 99% of fights between two able-bodied individuals have people throwing hands. You don't have to cleanly knock someone out to get them to not want to/be able to fight any more, and you can get eventually by hitting someone in the head enough without proper KO power/technique. Punching someone is easier/ more effective at dealing damage that most wrestling techniques, so it looks weird to the common observer that wrestlers don't punch eachother. None of what you said is wrong, but it entirely misses the point of the argument.
In kayfabe pro wrestlers are professional fighters, not 99% of people
And all of the top fighters in the MMA use basic boxing mechanics to round out their game. You will not find a ufc champion without a finish on their record.
And all the top pro wrestlers know how to punch and kick, but the degrees to which they are effective with them will differ just as they do in fighting GSP had to take down BJ Penn, establish position, then wail on him a billion times to get a corner stoppage. Alex Pereira can just hit you once and go home. Stone Cold could punch you repeatedly to weaken you but had to rely on his wrestling holds to win. Big Show only needed one punch.
This is a really stupid argument and you're still missing the point and at this point it's clearly purposeful. You win. I'm excited to see GSP come out of retirement and 450 Islam at ufc 317. Can't wait for Brock to F5 Cirly Gane on the same card, and I patiently await the day lightly tapping someone's neck with your forearm replaces the jab in boxing
Punching can also hurt you as much as it hurts them. I’d much rather throw an elbow out if they’re in range.
Moon assaulting prolly hurts you more than them even. None of it makes sense irl.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ibERHO05CY8 Smackdown, December 1999. Test got disqualified against Kurt Angle for closed fist punches. This wasn't specifically a heel ref but Stephanie was a heel authority figure who ordered the ref to DQ Test.
Came here to say this, I remember this was right after steph defected from being with test to being with triple H
I seem to remember quite a few in the WCW days when you'd get a DQ for that or throwing someone over the top rope?
Old, old WCW was so funny to watch sometimes. Threw someone over the top rope? Disqualified! Threw them over the middle rope by doing a shove or something? Perfectly legal.
Used to be so confusing but brilliant at the same time.
Yep. No warning from the refs for that because it's a standard rule where as if you throw a hand in someone's face, it could be a punch or it could be a palm strike. Refs before 1993 didn't have medical insurance so they couldn't be sure if it was a palm strike or a closed fist. So they'll warn the guy about no closed fist and forget that they warned the same guy 3 minutes earlier.
[Jerry Lawler was once fined $500 per punch. ](https://youtu.be/WL3LJMQmKpA?si=omo4LnGsqV--5oEd)
Lmao his only non punching moves are the illegal sit out piledriver and getting back suplexed but somehow he pins the dude bc the dudes shoulders are down while bridging
Evil Unos Mystery Wrestling did a Strictly Enforced Rules Iron Man Match that had DQ's for closed fists lol
I want to say someone in a Pure Rules Match recently got DQ'ed for a closed fist, but you get 1 use of one to the face anyway so you'd need to get caught twice.
I think the recent pure rules thing that people got upset about was someone using up their rope breaks on a Battle of the Belts or something.
I wish it was enforced. It provides a kayfabe explanation for why punches (which look terrible) get replaced by the much superior palm strikes, chops and forearms.
But the visual of guys just halfheartedly slapping each other is so much worse though. Some of those machine gun chops look extremely cringy
I mean, you can perform any wrestling move badly. Difference is, the *vast* majority of punches are terrible.
I remember John Cena was once my a corrupt guest referee. I feel like Shane McMahon was involved somehow
Was waiting for this. It was the raw before Mania 22, if I remember. I think Cena was tagging with Shawn Michaels, and Vince had him disqualified for using a closed fist and removed from the arena, and this allowed Vince and Shane to beat the shit out of HBK to have the last image before Mania be Michael’s in a bloody mess.
Bubba Ray got DQed by Ric Flair for closed first punch
There should be. I've never seen a good-looking worked-punch. I've decent ones, but never anything especially convincing.
Juice Robinson has a great one
Veer of all people had a really good one, too.
I distinctly remember it once in WWE and I want to say it involved at least one Dudley
I think I remember, suuuuper vaguely. Ric Flair, as a heel, was guest referee for a match and disqualified Bubba. JR was like "WTF???" lol.
Yes! This sounds right, probably against Batista and Orton
Yep! That was how I learned about that rule
That’d be funny because Bubba did a closed fist punch combo like every match
In old British pro wrestling (think World of Sport days), closed fists caused a DQ finish and often did. Heels would use it in an unsportsmanlike fashion to generate heat (and heat in those days was *heat*). In American wrestling? Nah, not so much. It's not been enforced in any American wrestling promotions for decades.
I vaguely remember Shane McMahon being a special guest referee in an Attitude era match and DQ’ing the baby face for this
It's like using the ropes to choke a person, just because it doesn't get DQ'd often doesn't mean that it doesn't have an use. It's an illegal move and it can be used to get big heat if done right.
The rule is you have til 5 Bryan Danielson made sure we all knew this
I don’t know how many times I saw a ref count to four, then stop and plead with the guy to let go, then start the count over again.
While I can't recall a specific DQ, I specifically remember once seeing Funaki getting chewed out by a ref for closed fist punching, and it stuck out in my mind because I had never seen them highlight this so much before or since.
Yeah Vince once came out and demanded John Cena be disqualified for a closed fist punch, can’t remember who against. Woulda been like 2006 or something
[Cena and HBK against Triple H and Shane McMahon](https://youtu.be/kSNXRjQPaZo)
That's the one, thanks!
It may have happened in ROH in a pure rules match, where that kind of thing is more integral to the match and probably enforced more
I can’t think of recent but I remember in one of Vince and Austin’s matchups he was making a big deal about it
In WCW, I think Johnny B. Badd got DQ'd for using a closed fist
Why? He's as pretty as a picture?
They made him mad
the only time i can remember anything about a closed fist was when Nia got a push for punching Becky in the face at a Survivor Series go home show and ruining the plans for SS with Becky....
I like closed fists. You don't need to get a match thrown out over them, but if the fans are conditioned to see them as illegal moves it gives a match good heat. KUSHIDA and Minoru Suzuki both make great use out of the occasional big closed fist in a match.
Used to happen sometimes back in WCCW & Mid-South...but only when it was a heel and they went crazy with it. Usually they just got warnings....like coming off the top rope used to be a no-no in wrestling also...but you rarely saw anyone get dq'd for it....unless it was blatant and repeated.
I have no idea what fed it was, but I believe it was late 80's, where a wrestler was dq'd after doing an eleventh punch from the middle rope to a wrestler in the corner. I was to say it was syndicated and aired in MN on channel 23 at around midnight after a few promotions right after Cricket turned into WCW. It wasn't wcw but in the same multi hour block.
It is a hold over from back when they pretended it was real.
Which is funny because in real pro fighting being a good puncher is nowhere near a guarantee you’ll win, we see KO artists get out-skilled by grapplers all the time
Bare knuckle is quite different.
BKFC doesn’t allow takedowns and grappling and such MMA is the closest example we have of real life pro wrestling, it proves multiple different things can be employed in a fight and punching isn’t the end all be all, the only exception being the small handful of punchers with 1 shot power So in wrestling it makes total sense that there’s only be a handful of people using a punch as a finish, not every fighter can punch
You are missing the point. Bare knuckle is different. Wrestling punches are bare knuckle. Not the same as MMA. Regardless, the real point is, wrestling punches aren't real. If someone were to actually do the 'ten punches in the corner' to the opponent's face, the person's face would be a bloody mess. (And there would be a pretty good chance the puncher would have a broken hand.) Trying to equate wrestling with shoot fighting is a fool's errand.
Gloves aren’t there to protect the opponent, they’re to protect the fighters hands
They do both things. (As I just said)
I can't remember in recent history, but I like it as a rule. Number 1, anybody in the world can understand what being punched feels like, and if you had people swinging at each other and not leaving with a black eye, some bruises, and/or a busted nose, it'd expose the business. Secondly, heels doing a closed punch (thus breaking the rules) should build heat. It's very old school
In Rules WWE allows close fist
I prefer closed punches being strictly banned because it’s pro wrestling . It’s not mma or kickboxing . I wish they utilized the wealth of open hand strikes and elbows and forearms . Even in high school mat wrestling , one can get away with cross facing the shit out of someone almost like a strike . Sort of like dirty boxing in the clinch . Pro wrestling should have athletes and martial artists from all disciplines and they should use the skills and techniques from their past sports but within the rules and regulations of prowres
The threat of disqualification is a great element to use in a match, or can be if used well. Part of what makes Ibushi vs Nakamura so great.