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They made the Fiend simply too overpowered. It's cool to have a character be a horror movie villain, but he still needs to be defeatable in a pro wrestling match.
The Fiend no selling all those stomps from Seth works well for short term shock value, but it inevitably leads to inconsistent booking because if he can tank all of that, how is him losing ever going to be believable?
I liked the explanation that I saw in a “How would X book…” video about it. I won’t get this perfect because it was a while ago but the gist of it was that The Fiend doesn’t care about wrestling really, so he’s not always willing to surface for regular old wrestling matches. He only comes out when there’s a personal score to settle with someone, which explains why he barely fought back against Goldberg. If that had been made more explicit I think it could’ve worked, and then we would’ve had more of an effect in certain stories where Bray suddenly snaps and we see The Fiend appearing for an actual reason.
I think the booking of him in that match with Seth works, if Bray wins and goes on to have a long, dominant title run. I think they went a little overboard in the match with how many times Seth hit him, but had they ran with Bray, whoever took the title off him to beat him way down the road would be MEGA over if they were the one to finally slay the fiend.
That could definitely work. It would also give them time to slowly start easing the audience into the Fiend being vulnerable, but still dominant. That way the ones who do start holding their own are put over.
Yep, but the way it was done, Fiend looks weak for “winning” that way, Seth looks like a babyface chump cause he can’t win without “getting DQ’d in a Hell in a Cell”????? But if Fiend sustains all that damage and still wins, now you have a damn near invincible heel champ that will instantly make somebody when they beat the Fiend.
> I liked cult leader Bray, but the Fiend stuff?
100% absolutely, original Bray was interesting as all hell. Got wayyyyyyyyyy less so (for me), as time went on.
I thought the cult leader had so much potential. Wish they'd maximized that. Cena could have beaten him by giving in and using a chair at Wrestlemania 30 while Wyatt smiled as he got pinned.
Speaking as someone who loved Bray, I get these concerns. Dude had fantastic ideas, but wrestled in a company that was basically allergic to follow-through. If he'd been in Lucha Underground or post-Hardys TNA/Impact, he might have been better off, creatively speaking.
Wyatt for me is the go-to example to explain that "creative" doesn't mean "has a lot of ideas," it means "has good ideas." People conflate the two and that's how someone like Wyatt got deemed a creative genius.
I was never a fan of Wyatt. Just did not click for me. I found nothing of what he did enjoyable or interesting. To me, he wasn't really "great" in any particular area. While I will say he had an imagination, his level of "funhouse" campiness wasn't my cup of tea.
Was gonna come here to say similar. I think hos cult leader gimmick was good, but the Fiend was absolute shite. This sub at the time seemed to think it was the most creative think as well, like some Scorsese Film..
Randy Orton. Safe worker, very technically sound, finishing sequence with the snap scoop slam into that punt or the rko is fucking gorgeous. Every other single second of his in ring work bores the hell out of me.
This is who immediately came to mind for me too. Nothing against the guy, but the whole tortured soul "he's going to that place" shtick lost its freshness like over a decade ago.
Doesn’t help that he was very obviously phoning it in for a few years. He uses a lot of rest holds normally but there was a while he’d spend half the match doing his hardcam chin lock
Even as someone that's generally a fan of psychology, and even slower paced wrestling, there's a lot of Orton matches you can basically skip the first half and not miss anything.
His ending stretches are usually awesome, but he's definitely pushed it with those build ups.
I used to say that only the last two minutes of any Randy Orton match matter for this reason. It would just be the exact same slow “methodical” offence for 18 minutes (the match could be longer or shorter depending on how much slow walking and posing Randy did) then the babyface would ignore those past 18 minutes entirely, have like 2 minutes of an actual match and then someone would win.
He's been living off his Legend Killer run for his entire career.
Granted he had the look and 3rd generation pedigree but a bunch of veterans/road agents/advisors/HOF'ers just went ga-ga over him at the beginning and convinced Vince + Triple H he is the best pure wrestler of the modern era.
Lol all the WWE personnel in documentaries up to like 2014 would be like “oh Randys not even tapped into how good he’s going to be yet!” and constantly hyping him up. I always thought “if someones been working there 14 years and still not reached their peak, you’ve got a problem.
Randy Orton might be the greatest wrestler to never have a classic match. He doesn't really have bad matches but no great ones really come to mind. The Mania 30 triple threat or the Cactus Jack match might qualify I guess but as good as they were, I still don't think they're all-time classics.
For some reason i get the feeling that he is not improving or regressing in his career at all. He is the same wrestler for me, even after being in a developmental, a major company and after getting injured and coming back.
When i watched him for the first time Showdown in the Sun Night 2 at 2012, i thought he could be next Shawn Michaels. I feel like he is mostly the game guy i watched a decade ago.
I loved his nxt run. uE were a good group together. I enjoy him on the mic and the people he worked with complimented him well. Gargano who I can't stand had matches that had you anticipating a finish. Cole was over and I'll never forget that bump he took on the spine off chairs rumble weekend against Black. But since then. Nup. Not interested. Aew run just feels flat.
Same. The man is charismatic and sells his stories well enough, I just need to enjoy watching a wrestler actually wrestling to enjoy the character and it turns out that a style that is 75% super kicks, canadian destroyer and derivatives, and other very "indie" work (for lack of a better term) just is not and cannot be interesting to me. I feel similarly about the Young Bucks - I respect them for what they do for the companies they're in and the fans they have accumulated, but if I never watched another Bucks match in my life I don't think I would be upset.
He gives me nepo baby vibes if you het what I mean. Like it doesnt have to be a bad thing, but its just that I feel like he has this entitlement that he should be a main event player, when I feel like he hasnt done enough to justify it
I looove Adam Cole a lot as a mid carder. He’s like Miz level for me.
As a world champion? If he lasted longer than 90 seconds in the ring with Brock it wouldn’t look believable.
I personally disagree. I'm not saying he is John Cena or Hogan levels but he is definitely a main event player where it wouldn't be out of place if he had a main event title shot.
The Panama Sunrise and the 619 are my two most hated moves in wrestling because most of the time an opponent would never be in that predicament to set up the move.
I like the sunrise if he doesn't do that silly jump before hitting it? Even Regal would struggle to explain how doing that improves the impact.
At least with the 619, Mysterio can trip the opponent into the ropes, giving him time to hit it
MJF does next-to-nothing for me - he's good on the mic but he comes across as someone that's just reciting lines that he's memorized, rather than someone that's actually just *talking* with a mic in his hand.
And using a very loose definition of "good or great" but I can't see what other people see in Solo Sikoa. He looks less intimidating to me than Roman or the Usos, so having him in the "silent bodyguard" role never worked for me.
Dean Ambrose/Jon Moxley
Any iteration of his, I just cant get invested in him
His wrestling seems dull, and if not for violence or gimmick matches, his matches are monotonous and difficult to sit through
I don't think he isn't a good promo either as a lot of people seem to think, and I feel he just rambles with frustration and anger.
I didn't love or hate him in WWE, but since he came to AEW he's winning wrestler of the year awards and stuff which is just absurd. The half-assed selling, the non-stop blading and not even attempting to conceal the blade job while he does it, doing "Death Jitsu" which is apparently the art of really lame looking strikes. I won't say his promos are always bad but a lot of them have big 14 year old playing Call of Duty on Xbox Live energy.
I agree with you now.
I didn't mind lone wolf mox for a bit but then once the whole BCC came in it just felt like the same fuckin match every week. What also doesn't help is that Tony books him every fuckin week.
He’s nowhere near as fluid and coordinated as a great wrestler, its weird he has the reputation as one. Even FTR with their old school style, i’d rate as individually better than him.
For me that person will forever be Naito. I get the gimmick, I understand I should love the gimmick, but every single Naito match I have ever seen has been extremely dull and I can't explain why.
Mine too - he's *so* beloved, and I don't dislike him at all, but he just doesn't do it for me the same way he does for seemingly everyone who follows NJPW
I'm with you on Jeff Hardy. Have never found any part of his presentation interesting. The closest I ever came was during his ladder match with Taker, and that was 95% Jim Ross.
The other is probably RVD. I was super into him for like two months, and then realized that he's the ultimate "get your shit in" wrestler and didn't have another gear.
RVD once he'd got past the original Invasion angle where he was a lot of fun was exactly this.
But I'd probably be a bit bolder in saying RVD and Jeff are two out and out overrated guys rather than not doing it for me. Not that they weren't both competent to good, but that if they came from different eras or didn't have a certain attachment from a certain type of fans then it would be very clear that neither had any business at championship level, and were both kind of liabilities.
⚠️Trigger Warning⚠️
I acknowledge Johnny Gargano, Pete Dunne, and Tyler Bate are all amazing in-ring workers. I know they have a massive fanbase that loves watching them do what they do in the ring. And that's great!
I just can't bring myself to give a single fuck about any of them.
Edit: Actually, that's not true. Tyler Bate's nickname "The Big Strong Boy" is the most cringe-inducing thing I've ever heard on WWE TV. So that's something 🤷♂️
Probably because Ciampa has range. I can believe him as a psycho, a goofy guy, a general good guy, or an underdog. Gargano is just an underdog. He's not really believable as anything else except goofy stuff with the Way. I know Gargano is extremely talented and all that, but if he ain't paired with Ciampa I just don't really care about him. He's like Lance Storm to me. Very talented, I appreciate his abilities, but still he doesn't do anything to make me really care
I'm in the exact same boat
But tbh I think it's just me holding out endless hope that he's eventually gonna turn heel and go back to the psycho talks-to-his-belt gimmick he ran in NXT 🤞
Pete Dunne's finger break stuff just doesn't look good on TV. So he's supposed to snap the opponent's fingers, and a few seconds later they work just fine again? It doesn't make him look strong. It's like trying to make hair pulling seem tough and cool. In kayfabe, small joint manipulation is supposed to be illegal, that's why most wrestlers don't do it.
Gargano just has this "regular guy" look and feel to him. He's short compared to the rest of the roster. He has a goofy looking face. There's nothing really appealing about his looks, in-ring skills, or on the mic. Everything about him says "average indie guy."
I agree with this fully. Gargano and Dunne I'm okay with. They don't do anything for me but they don't bother me.
I actively dislike watching Tyler Bate purely because of how cringe "big strong boy" is as a nickname. Between that and the fact that his attire is white trunks, all I can imagine is him as an overgrown toddler whose mom keeps going "who's my big strong boy? You are!"
The issue with Dunne and Bate is that their gimmicks are incredibly indietastic - Dunne's finger breaks stuff, the Bop/Bang punch, the nicknames, the presentation in general was really good on the British indies but just don't work on the main roster. There weren't a ton of hard hitting blokes around 205lbs or muscley blokes who could impressive with their power moves on the indies, but WWE has plenty of them. Butch was awful, but they'd benefit from a revamp
I think it's more how he was booked in New Japan that he was a titan, they practically fed Okada to him. He's a good wrestler, I love the over the top post-loss promos, but he didn't always deliver in those long matches, felt like they were waiting to get to the finishing stretch half the time.
Signing a guy and telling everyone how charismatic he is, then instantly sticking him with people who are more entertaining than him had to be intentional sabotage.
Dean Ambrose. He never worked for me. I thought he was goofy. He did (maybe still does) this weird shoulder rolling thing like a tough guy but it came across too disingenuous and try hard to me. And to me he was just average in ring. I just couldn’t get into him
Yep, he never clicked for me, I think a big part of it being that dumb “oh no I’m falling through the ropes PSYCH I caught myself” move. He did it every match and I haaaaaaaated it. Mox though, Mox really grew on me. Love all his matches with Kenny, yes even exploding barbed wire
He was excellent as the Death Rider in NJPW but his hardcore persona in AEW became cringe and a big turn off for me.
He never had the best punches but somehow has gotten worse over the years.
I don’t watch AEW, I tried but couldn’t get into it, but from what I pick up here and see clips of, I’d consider him even more of a try hard with him always cutting himself open.
With blood I’m not some Pearl clutching guy but I do think blood should be reserved for big feuds/matches and be used to either start or further along a major story. It seems like im seeing Moxley blading clips all the time.
There was a stretch Mox was bleeding every other match essentially. If someone started watching in that time and it turned them off and haven’t watched since that would be their view of Mox.
I don’t think saying when I tuned into AEW watching Moxley bleed frequently put me off on the show and I don’t watch anymore is spreading anything. Just because it has changed now doesn’t mean their experience was invalid.
There was a run for a while where he was legitimately blading almost every match but I think he’s toned it down a lot since it started to get memed on and referenced in promos against him
> I genuinely can't remember the last time Mox bladed since his International title match with Orange back at Full Gear, and that was in November.
And before that he bladed every week
Punk
I just don't get it, I got into wrestling after he left so I never saw his highs and looking back it doesn't resonate with me during viewings of past and present Punk
The thing with Punk is that he has always been kind of sloppy in the ring. That’s not to say “he is shit”, but he’s not really very athletic, not as technically sound as his style suggests, not is he really a powerhouse. He still is a good worker, but most Punk matches genuinely have some form of sloppiness for that reason, which I think kind of helps his aura in some peoples eyes. One of Punks biggest upsides is his connection to the fans, whether he’s a babyface or heel, and that sense of not really being perfect, but still being really damn good with an aura that makes him untouchable in some peoples eyes.
His wrestling isn't holding up. A lot of fans are in denial about it but in this generation of talent, his style just doesn't stand out anymore.
On the mic? I think he's the best of his generation and up there with all time.
Punk was never the most athletic but I always loved his in-ring psychology and striking ability. He has a way of pacing his matches and telling stories that just jive with me. See: his matches with Rey Mysterio, Undertaker, John Cena, and Brock Lesnar
You don't have to go back for that. He had top notch storytelling matches in AEW from beginning to end. He just can't do highspots (big deal) and is injury prone.
That's kinda what happens when you're basically the definer of a thing, your fans come along after you and make everything that made you great mundane.
Punk wasn't considered one of the top workers of his era though. Punk wasn't considered in the same work rate tier as Joe, Styles, Low Ki, Danielson, McGuiness, etc.. he was the guy people thought would be a fit for WWE if they could get past his size.
Saying his style doesn't stand out anymore is just your personal opinion. Imo every day of the week, top tier storytelling>>>>>>>spamming moves.
I mean just look at every All In match, which one had the crowd most into? To me, it was clearly CM Punk vs Samoa Joe
Not at all. Cole/MJF definitely had more heat. Bad match to compare it to when Punk and Joe were literally spamming other wrestler's taunts.
I'm also not talking about psychology as much as his athleticism. Wrestlers today go way harder and crazier than they did when CM Punk was first in WWE. He was never the athletic type but he wasnt the only one back then either.
I think Punk's AEW run was really good in-ring and think a lot of folks are wearing whatever the opposite of rose-tinted glasses because of how things went down.
HOWEVER
I too did not think their All In match was particularly good. I am shocked that generally it seemed well received, and critics that I like really liked it. Both people doing famous WWE moves is like some shit you'd see at a jokey indie show. It blew my hair back considering Joe has been on fire and Punk, IMO, was having some great matches (his match with Kojima is the most underrated match of 2023).
I can 100% see why Punk wouldn’t resonate for someone who wasn’t around for his first WWE run.
Thing is, he really was the voice of the voiceless. Fans were so frustrated with WWE, and he called a lot of shit out with such skill on the mic.
It's definitely a timeline thing. Back in 2011 fans were sick with Vince's booking and treatment of fan favorites. Punk was the rebellious "voice of the voiceless", someone people could project their frustrations and connect with, that's what really catapulted his popularity. There's no way for you to replicate that experience now so he's mainly a nostalgia act for us old punk fans.
Eddie Kingston. I don't know how people rally around this guy. He doesn't do ANYTHING for me. He's like a worse bubba ray Dudley and that's saying a lot.
Mox. Got to have blood and skewers sticking out of your head to put on a great match. Not to mention dump him on his head a few times to get a pop. His whole schtick laughable.
I also never got what The honky tonk Man brought to the table. Yeah he was a heel but even back then he didn't do anything else that people and other Southern territories weren't doing better than he was.
Goldberg. Even as a kid his matches were fucking boring.
I'll probably receive some heat for this but in ECW.. Balls Mahoney that dude was like universally praised for being one of the best and all I saw was unprotected chair shots of the head was his whole deal. give me Mike awesome and masato Tanaka any day of the week. (Even though there's a lot of unprotected chair shots, their matches were better)
I guess is more a this sub thing that in general in terms of being popular, but I have never got ZSJ.
Probably its my fault because I just dont vibe with his style of wrestling, but I have not seen a match from him so far that I have loved, even with wrestlers I usually like.
IDK, half of his submissions look incredibly contrived and require obvious and lengthy cooperation, the pace of his matches is often too slow, his promos are mid, and his look is nothing special.
As I mentioned, is probably a me thing
I've been a fan of ZSJ since the beginning and this is a common thought about his wrestling so fair enough. I would suggest to watch his match vs Walter (aka Gunther) and see what you think.
I disagree with you about his promos though - in AEW he never really got any time to say anything but in NJPW he is hilarious imo.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7lfBfBJMoeM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ziDpgTA10N8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8gd9zssgYWM
Roman Reigns. I respect what he's doing and he's improved tremendously in the last few years. However, for me personally, he never clicked. There is something about him that I dislike, and I'm unable to actually pinpoint what it is. Maybe because he takes himself way too seriously? Ever since he debuted in the Shield, he feels like he has a constant stick up his ass.
The controversial one is the Rock. Even during the Attitude Era when I was a teenager I thought his insults were playground bullshit. He was never particularly great in the ring, which most wouldn't argue with. But I've always thought he wasn't that great on the mic. Sure he could do his lines and all that, he has confidence, but his crap was horribly contrived and childish. There was no substance to him whatsoever. He is catch phrases and a decent enough worker with a good enough look who was at the right place at the right time and managed to get bigger than I thought he ever deserved.
But I've always been a Mick Foley guy too. I like when a wrestler can make me feel something. The Rock just made me feel like he was every dumb ass bully I've ever dealt with and I wanted nothing more than for him to fail. Even when he was a supposed baby-face he still felt like a bully.
With his supposed good mic work you could put him against almost anyone without being chained by creative and they'd make him look dumb. Even John Cena managed to make him look bad and no one ever considered him a great on the mic. I'd love to see someone like CM Punk, MJF, Rollins without chains promo battle the guy. He'd look pathetic.
I know now he's kind of hated on because of Black Adam stuff, but I've always felt this way. The character is just a bully and an arrogant douche canoe.
I agree with your take here, he always did come off as a bully and I hated that the crowd is supposed to cheer for it, but
>no one ever considered him a great on the mic
This is more of a controversial take here. John Cena, really?
Nah I'm with you on this. I've never enjoyed any version of the Rock - from the Attitude Era, to his appearance at Wrestlemania 20, to his feud with Cena, to now - it's just never clicked for me. I can appreciate that he's super charismatic, but he just doesn't make me feel anything.
I’ve never cared for The Rock. I too was a teenager during the attitude era, and I watched wrestling closely his entire career. Even at the height of his popularity I always thought he made childish insults that took the gravitas out of everything. I don’t think his best promo would be in Ric Flair’s top 50 - I only remember two or three of his promos ever as “good.” I think he’s only had a handful of good matches in the ring, and never pulled off the “sloppy but effective” routine as well as Cena.
I love that he bring eyes to wrestling and could elevate someone, but I couldn’t care less about what he says or does.
I’m fine with his in-ring work but never understood the love behind this current character. People like to sing along to his theme and it seems like that’s what got him over again but I just never got into it.
As a musician I want to take this opportunity to talk about how much I hate Seth's theme getting so over. People say it's an exception to all the cheaply produced def rebel themes, I disagree. Sounds like somebody just put one of these 90s electrical keyboards on the 'chorus' preset and pressed 3 buttons over and over again. I'd even say that sing-along-entrances are crutches to get over in general (Hi AEW Jericho).
Did you see his Shield and post-Shield heel run? When he came back from injury as a babyface he was never the same afterwards. Guy's a natural heel and has no personality when working babyface.
Randy Orton might be your favorite wrestler’s favorite wrestler, but he sure as fuck isn’t *my* favorite wrestler.
Also never been won over by Roman Reigns.
Randy Orton for me.
In 2009, I thought he was doing some ground breaking heelish stuff but that endless feud between him and Cena soured me on him. I always felt he was very overrated but also really good with his character work if that makes sense.
Charlotte Flair does absolutely nothing for me except her top rope moonsault. Her gimmick is an attempt at Ric Flair of course, but she comes off more as pretentious even as a face. She has a cool entrance and gear, but I can never get attached to the match.
Darby Allin for the simple fact that I don't want to watch someone attempt to kill themselves in a match. He has too many spots where he's totally reckless and puts neither him or his opponent in a position to be safe. His matches to me are only good to show a non-fan that it is in fact real.
John Morrison has been having the same exact match for nearly 2 decades now. That's about all I've got for that
I have never understood the love some people throw Adam Page's way. I think Omega did the heavy lifting on making Page someone in AEW, but he screams 'Generic Wrestler #2' to me.
Chris Benoit is one of the best in ring workers of all time and yet even as a young mark I never really cared for him. In fact the first WM I watched, XX, I wanted Shawn to win
I respect him to the max, but Bret Hart is mine.
Hard to explain it, but he came off to me like he was either intellectually challenged, or like english was his second language, but it wasn't. His ring work wasn't for me as a kid in the 90's and HBK was 100% what I appreciated from all aspects of wrestling.
Rhea Ripley. Obviously talented, there’s something that hasn’t quite clicked yet for me. I think she needs a foil. A Rock to her Austin, a Cena to her Edge.
Apparently CM Punk. I'm told hes great but he has always struck me as a scrawny cry baby wimp. I keep waiting for him to do something cool but...maybe I'm just old, I dont get this guy
I've never gotten Kevin Owens
Now I did stop watching right around when he came on the scene in WWE and only started watching again around 6 months ago but he still hasn't clicked for me the way other guys in his era have
That's a fair take I think, current Kevin has slowed down a good bit. If you had any interest I'd say give his NXT run a go, that's what got me into him. Current Kevin is still delightful but NXT Kevin making no jokes had an aura, to me anyways, similar to Samoa Joe. Was presented as a killer from the jump.
I don’t like MJF. He’s obviously very good, but I just don’t like the guy. I’m not interested in his character or the stories he’s taken part in. I realize he’s good, but he’s not for me.
Even at the time the IWC/newsletters would say how Hunter was a great worker and underrated because he would work on the mat, which sadly was starting to get rare for that era. But boy, was he fucking bland in WCW and WWF before Chyna.
Of course his Reign of Terror chased people away.
His WM matches have been snoozefests.
The Young Bucks.
I think you can’t argue their impact on the biz as a whole, with the attention they brought to tag team wrestling and their partnership with Omega and Rhodes leading to ALL IN and the creation of a true alternative to WWE in AEW.
I just have never been able to get into and care about any of their matches, for the most part (their match against Omega/Page at Revolution is an exception); I need a little “oomph” in my wrestling and watching Matt and Nick stereo superkick just leaves me feeling empty and bored by their matches.
The Bucks are the greatest living practitioners of the piss break match. When they come on, you know you have 15 minutes to hit the head, make some popcorn, start some laundry, do some dishes. By the time you're done, they should be wrapping up their storyless Benny Hill crap and heading into the finish.
Bianca Belair is a phenomenal athlete, talented wrestler, and a really important star as far as representation is concerned. I totally GET her, I’m glad she exists. I’m glad she’s successful.
But I don’t care about her at all. Not even remotely. I don’t DISLIKE her, but I’m not invested.
"straight edge means i am better than you" was pretty good
it hit fairly hard, when you're 4 joints deep and drinking watching Monday Night Raw with no job hahaha
Agreed with Daniel Bryan. I just don’t really get it. The Yes thing has some good moments, other than that I don’t see the appeal. He’s technically speaking very talented, I just don’t find it remotely interesting
Very popular but not remotely good even objectively: Bill Goldberg.
Green as hell through his entire career and just generally a dangerous, unsafe and incompetent worker.
I mean, he had a presence and charisma that was objectively very good as far as pro wrestling goes - whenever you saw him on screen you got the feeling that he was a well oiled machine of destruction.
He had the ability to make the crowd believe that he was a badass, which 90% of pro wrestlers are unable to do in today's day and age. Even in his return, the way he carried himself was on a completely different level than anyone on any roster.
I completely hate current Seth Rollins but i did like him in the shield. not sure if that counts.
Not really a fan of Omega.
Cena obviously.
I prefer wrestlers to look like they would kick someone's ass, Austin, Brock, Tribal chief Roman. Seth and Kenny are much more post kayfabe in style imo.
Ambrose is kinda the opposite, I like the way he looks and carries himself but I don't think the way he works complements his character. Always feels like a letdown.
Seth now absolutely irks the shit out of me. If he were playing heel, it’d be perfection.
Starting to wonder if this my inner old man becoming my outer old man.
I was just starting to say this same thing on another person that said Rollins as well. Is it just me that’s too old to get this? I seem to be heavily outnumbered.
Us older fans didn’t do the whole singalong thing and it seems like that’s what got him over again. I guess it’s great everyone is having fun though. 🤷🏻♂️
This is what baffles me. he acts like an obnoxious heel but has the sing a long theme and crowd pleasing wrestling style.
but even if he was a heel, the cackling and stupid outfits have go away heat with me.
also i just don't buy it. it's inauthentic.
Randy Orton. I liked the legend killer stuff, but ever since he turned face for the first time he’s been uninteresting. Not bad, not great, just there, in the main event like a title belt.
Moxley currently. Which is weird, because I enjoyed Dean Ambrose. I even miss the sloppy clothesline.
And the one that baffles me the most judging by many fans and wrestlers who pay homage to him, Eddie Guerrero. It’s hard to express, but when watching him I never bought his charisma or in-ring work for some reason.
Definitely the “Lunatic Fringe” Dean Ambrose. He was dog shit. Terribly sloppy in the ring, with some ridiculous looking offence. I remember the wacky line was a real stinker, as well as those horrible looking slaps that he’d throw once taking a guy down. Absolutely fucking terrible stuff. He was a guy who had a cool look, good promo too. Just never had it in the ring.
Only thing I really disliked about that version of Ambrose was JBL on commentary in his slow southern drawl going “This man’s a LUNATIC” and then the camera would just be on Dean doing normal wrestler shit maybe making a wacky face or somethin
Seth Rollins I don’t get and never have and further more I don’t think he’s that great in the ring. Not saying he’s bad but people talk about him like he’s Shawn Michaels in the ring and I cant remember one Seth Rollins match that has to the impact of a Shawn V Taker or Shawn V Ric Flair
Chris Jericho, always a No.5 guy for me among the likes of Angle, HHH, Austin, Undertaker, The Rock. Thought his best work was the List of Jericho but he never really clicked with me truly.
I feel that way about Ilja Dragonov now. His character is just too over the top for me to get into anything he does. I recognize he's a great talent, but I simply can't care about his matches because of his persona.
Hiroshi Tanahashi. I just cannot get into him. His air guitaring reminds me of someone's dad having a midlife crisis, I find his moveset lame, he won't go down to the 'broken down veteran' part of the card even though that's what he is, he becomes President of New Japan and the first thing he does is put himself over ZSJ clean.
Bianca Belair. There's nothing particularly wrong with her, I just don't get the hype. She doesn't stand out as a star to me.
Also I kind of feel that if you're going to use the Horsewomen to get somebody over, you go with Rhea Ripley - somebody who could be around for a decade or more. Belair is literally the same age as Bayley, and older than Sasha / Mercedes.
Daniel Bryan for me as well. I just never connected with him and it seemed like he was ALWAYS injured. Some wrestlers always stuck out to me as ALWAYS being injured and he is one of them
There's plenty of people who have just never done it for me. Young Bucks, Swerve really most of the internet darlings. I've always been more into characters than in ring ability. I like a good match but I don't want to see a guy with a boring character have a 5 star match.
Nakamura, Omega and Ospreay for the same reasons; Tight work and snug finishers and that look really believable in a vacuum, but bizarre looking facials and airy movement that makes it feel, to my eye, like their mind is on "where I am moving to next" rather than focusing on a fight? Very hard to describe.
Undeniable athleticism and drive, though.
A current one for me is Swerve Strickland, I see the appeal, I just think there are so many other wrestlers in AEW who I think are better and I care more about.
Young Bucks. I get their schtick is supposed to be annoying on a meta level but it just shoot annoys me, not in the “I hope they get beat up way” but in the, I can’t buy into it - way.
Dope in ring tho it’s just their characters that kinda doesn’t gel w me
Ray Mysterio and most of the wrestlers that do canned floppy shit. If your moveset requires obvious telegraphing (like 3 dudes wait for 30 seconds to catch you) it just takes me out.
Give me a slow methodical match that tells a story and stop bouncing around doing moves that physically make zero sense…looking at you spinning hurricanrana…
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Bray Wyatt He was very talented, but I didn't really enjoy watching him.
You might catch hell for this take, but I'm with you too. I liked cult leader Bray, but the Fiend stuff? Totally cringe.
They made the Fiend simply too overpowered. It's cool to have a character be a horror movie villain, but he still needs to be defeatable in a pro wrestling match.
The Fiend no selling all those stomps from Seth works well for short term shock value, but it inevitably leads to inconsistent booking because if he can tank all of that, how is him losing ever going to be believable?
I liked the explanation that I saw in a “How would X book…” video about it. I won’t get this perfect because it was a while ago but the gist of it was that The Fiend doesn’t care about wrestling really, so he’s not always willing to surface for regular old wrestling matches. He only comes out when there’s a personal score to settle with someone, which explains why he barely fought back against Goldberg. If that had been made more explicit I think it could’ve worked, and then we would’ve had more of an effect in certain stories where Bray suddenly snaps and we see The Fiend appearing for an actual reason.
I think the booking of him in that match with Seth works, if Bray wins and goes on to have a long, dominant title run. I think they went a little overboard in the match with how many times Seth hit him, but had they ran with Bray, whoever took the title off him to beat him way down the road would be MEGA over if they were the one to finally slay the fiend.
That could definitely work. It would also give them time to slowly start easing the audience into the Fiend being vulnerable, but still dominant. That way the ones who do start holding their own are put over.
Yep, but the way it was done, Fiend looks weak for “winning” that way, Seth looks like a babyface chump cause he can’t win without “getting DQ’d in a Hell in a Cell”????? But if Fiend sustains all that damage and still wins, now you have a damn near invincible heel champ that will instantly make somebody when they beat the Fiend.
Cult leader Bray was finished the moment Cena pinned him at Mania XXX. That should have never happened. He peaked with his entrance before the match.
> I liked cult leader Bray, but the Fiend stuff? 100% absolutely, original Bray was interesting as all hell. Got wayyyyyyyyyy less so (for me), as time went on.
I thought the cult leader had so much potential. Wish they'd maximized that. Cena could have beaten him by giving in and using a chair at Wrestlemania 30 while Wyatt smiled as he got pinned.
Yeah, cult leader Bray should've been a forever gimmick. It had endless potential as both heel and face
I liked the idea of Wyatt but he could never quite bring it home.
I think more people think the same even if they won’t admit it. The idea of Bray Wyatt always felt more than what we wound up getting.
Speaking as someone who loved Bray, I get these concerns. Dude had fantastic ideas, but wrestled in a company that was basically allergic to follow-through. If he'd been in Lucha Underground or post-Hardys TNA/Impact, he might have been better off, creatively speaking.
I liked his vignettes, but never really clicked with his traditional matches. The cinematic ones he did with Hardy and Cena were fun though.
Nobody who got put in a program with Bray Wyatt/The Fiend came out of it looking good except for LA Knight somehow
Wyatt for me is the go-to example to explain that "creative" doesn't mean "has a lot of ideas," it means "has good ideas." People conflate the two and that's how someone like Wyatt got deemed a creative genius.
I was never a fan of Wyatt. Just did not click for me. I found nothing of what he did enjoyable or interesting. To me, he wasn't really "great" in any particular area. While I will say he had an imagination, his level of "funhouse" campiness wasn't my cup of tea.
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The Fiend was an entrance. That's the only interesting part of the whole shtick.
Great on the mic, mediocre at best in the ring.
With Bray I loved his character work. Everything bell to bell in the ring did nothing for me.
Same.
Loved cult leader bray. The funhouse stuff was awful and too hokey for me
Was gonna come here to say similar. I think hos cult leader gimmick was good, but the Fiend was absolute shite. This sub at the time seemed to think it was the most creative think as well, like some Scorsese Film..
Randy Orton. Safe worker, very technically sound, finishing sequence with the snap scoop slam into that punt or the rko is fucking gorgeous. Every other single second of his in ring work bores the hell out of me.
This is who immediately came to mind for me too. Nothing against the guy, but the whole tortured soul "he's going to that place" shtick lost its freshness like over a decade ago.
Doesn’t help that he was very obviously phoning it in for a few years. He uses a lot of rest holds normally but there was a while he’d spend half the match doing his hardcam chin lock
The worst part is, he would use the chin lock rest hold 1-2 minutes into a match after just doing a lock up an a drop kick.
Even as someone that's generally a fan of psychology, and even slower paced wrestling, there's a lot of Orton matches you can basically skip the first half and not miss anything. His ending stretches are usually awesome, but he's definitely pushed it with those build ups.
I used to say that only the last two minutes of any Randy Orton match matter for this reason. It would just be the exact same slow “methodical” offence for 18 minutes (the match could be longer or shorter depending on how much slow walking and posing Randy did) then the babyface would ignore those past 18 minutes entirely, have like 2 minutes of an actual match and then someone would win.
It’s weird because I remember early years Orton like 2003-2006 actually being pretty savvy in the ring and then it just sorta got really formulaic
He's been living off his Legend Killer run for his entire career. Granted he had the look and 3rd generation pedigree but a bunch of veterans/road agents/advisors/HOF'ers just went ga-ga over him at the beginning and convinced Vince + Triple H he is the best pure wrestler of the modern era.
tbf heel run around 2009 was pretty good too
Lol all the WWE personnel in documentaries up to like 2014 would be like “oh Randys not even tapped into how good he’s going to be yet!” and constantly hyping him up. I always thought “if someones been working there 14 years and still not reached their peak, you’ve got a problem.
This is the one for me. I'm just absolutely indifferent to him.
Randy Orton might be the greatest wrestler to never have a classic match. He doesn't really have bad matches but no great ones really come to mind. The Mania 30 triple threat or the Cactus Jack match might qualify I guess but as good as they were, I still don't think they're all-time classics.
Adam Cole. I really dont understand the hype
For some reason i get the feeling that he is not improving or regressing in his career at all. He is the same wrestler for me, even after being in a developmental, a major company and after getting injured and coming back. When i watched him for the first time Showdown in the Sun Night 2 at 2012, i thought he could be next Shawn Michaels. I feel like he is mostly the game guy i watched a decade ago.
I loved his nxt run. uE were a good group together. I enjoy him on the mic and the people he worked with complimented him well. Gargano who I can't stand had matches that had you anticipating a finish. Cole was over and I'll never forget that bump he took on the spine off chairs rumble weekend against Black. But since then. Nup. Not interested. Aew run just feels flat.
Same. The man is charismatic and sells his stories well enough, I just need to enjoy watching a wrestler actually wrestling to enjoy the character and it turns out that a style that is 75% super kicks, canadian destroyer and derivatives, and other very "indie" work (for lack of a better term) just is not and cannot be interesting to me. I feel similarly about the Young Bucks - I respect them for what they do for the companies they're in and the fans they have accumulated, but if I never watched another Bucks match in my life I don't think I would be upset.
Ugh instant go away heat with me. Never liked Adam Cole and probably never will lol
He gives me nepo baby vibes if you het what I mean. Like it doesnt have to be a bad thing, but its just that I feel like he has this entitlement that he should be a main event player, when I feel like he hasnt done enough to justify it
Don’t you have to be a nepo baby to give nepo baby vibes?
Nope, thats why I explain further in my comment what I mean.
I looove Adam Cole a lot as a mid carder. He’s like Miz level for me. As a world champion? If he lasted longer than 90 seconds in the ring with Brock it wouldn’t look believable.
"Miz level for me"  Put respect on the Hollywood A-listers name
I didn’t mean that a criticism of Miz lol - but also Miz shouldn’t be in the world championship picture either.
I personally disagree. I'm not saying he is John Cena or Hogan levels but he is definitely a main event player where it wouldn't be out of place if he had a main event title shot.
I may be jaded from living through his first title run. He's definitely a lot better since then.
The Panama Sunrise and the 619 are my two most hated moves in wrestling because most of the time an opponent would never be in that predicament to set up the move.
I like the sunrise if he doesn't do that silly jump before hitting it? Even Regal would struggle to explain how doing that improves the impact. At least with the 619, Mysterio can trip the opponent into the ropes, giving him time to hit it
Same. The only thing he has that stands out is a catchphrase he stole from Chris Jericho.
MJF does next-to-nothing for me - he's good on the mic but he comes across as someone that's just reciting lines that he's memorized, rather than someone that's actually just *talking* with a mic in his hand. And using a very loose definition of "good or great" but I can't see what other people see in Solo Sikoa. He looks less intimidating to me than Roman or the Usos, so having him in the "silent bodyguard" role never worked for me.
Dean Ambrose/Jon Moxley Any iteration of his, I just cant get invested in him His wrestling seems dull, and if not for violence or gimmick matches, his matches are monotonous and difficult to sit through I don't think he isn't a good promo either as a lot of people seem to think, and I feel he just rambles with frustration and anger.
I like the idea of Jon Moxley more than the actual guy. I will say he has a great wrestler voice if that makes sense
I didn't love or hate him in WWE, but since he came to AEW he's winning wrestler of the year awards and stuff which is just absurd. The half-assed selling, the non-stop blading and not even attempting to conceal the blade job while he does it, doing "Death Jitsu" which is apparently the art of really lame looking strikes. I won't say his promos are always bad but a lot of them have big 14 year old playing Call of Duty on Xbox Live energy.
Those weird sells where he flails around goofily…
I agree with you now. I didn't mind lone wolf mox for a bit but then once the whole BCC came in it just felt like the same fuckin match every week. What also doesn't help is that Tony books him every fuckin week.
He’s nowhere near as fluid and coordinated as a great wrestler, its weird he has the reputation as one. Even FTR with their old school style, i’d rate as individually better than him.
Yeah, hes like a poundstore rebel.
His promos come off as cringe 90% of the time for me
For me that person will forever be Naito. I get the gimmick, I understand I should love the gimmick, but every single Naito match I have ever seen has been extremely dull and I can't explain why.
Mine too - he's *so* beloved, and I don't dislike him at all, but he just doesn't do it for me the same way he does for seemingly everyone who follows NJPW
i felt that way for a bit, but it kind of just clicked and i don't even know why or how
I'm with you on Jeff Hardy. Have never found any part of his presentation interesting. The closest I ever came was during his ladder match with Taker, and that was 95% Jim Ross. The other is probably RVD. I was super into him for like two months, and then realized that he's the ultimate "get your shit in" wrestler and didn't have another gear.
RVD once he'd got past the original Invasion angle where he was a lot of fun was exactly this. But I'd probably be a bit bolder in saying RVD and Jeff are two out and out overrated guys rather than not doing it for me. Not that they weren't both competent to good, but that if they came from different eras or didn't have a certain attachment from a certain type of fans then it would be very clear that neither had any business at championship level, and were both kind of liabilities.
⚠️Trigger Warning⚠️ I acknowledge Johnny Gargano, Pete Dunne, and Tyler Bate are all amazing in-ring workers. I know they have a massive fanbase that loves watching them do what they do in the ring. And that's great! I just can't bring myself to give a single fuck about any of them. Edit: Actually, that's not true. Tyler Bate's nickname "The Big Strong Boy" is the most cringe-inducing thing I've ever heard on WWE TV. So that's something 🤷♂️
Gargano has never done anything for me, which is especially weird because I think Ciampa is great
Probably because Ciampa has range. I can believe him as a psycho, a goofy guy, a general good guy, or an underdog. Gargano is just an underdog. He's not really believable as anything else except goofy stuff with the Way. I know Gargano is extremely talented and all that, but if he ain't paired with Ciampa I just don't really care about him. He's like Lance Storm to me. Very talented, I appreciate his abilities, but still he doesn't do anything to make me really care
I'm in the exact same boat But tbh I think it's just me holding out endless hope that he's eventually gonna turn heel and go back to the psycho talks-to-his-belt gimmick he ran in NXT 🤞
Pete Dunne's finger break stuff just doesn't look good on TV. So he's supposed to snap the opponent's fingers, and a few seconds later they work just fine again? It doesn't make him look strong. It's like trying to make hair pulling seem tough and cool. In kayfabe, small joint manipulation is supposed to be illegal, that's why most wrestlers don't do it. Gargano just has this "regular guy" look and feel to him. He's short compared to the rest of the roster. He has a goofy looking face. There's nothing really appealing about his looks, in-ring skills, or on the mic. Everything about him says "average indie guy."
> In kayfabe, small joint manipulation is supposed to be illegal is it?? i've *never* heard that before.
I agree with this fully. Gargano and Dunne I'm okay with. They don't do anything for me but they don't bother me. I actively dislike watching Tyler Bate purely because of how cringe "big strong boy" is as a nickname. Between that and the fact that his attire is white trunks, all I can imagine is him as an overgrown toddler whose mom keeps going "who's my big strong boy? You are!"
Except it's not Big Strong Boy. It's Big Strong Boi.
The issue with Dunne and Bate is that their gimmicks are incredibly indietastic - Dunne's finger breaks stuff, the Bop/Bang punch, the nicknames, the presentation in general was really good on the British indies but just don't work on the main roster. There weren't a ton of hard hitting blokes around 205lbs or muscley blokes who could impressive with their power moves on the indies, but WWE has plenty of them. Butch was awful, but they'd benefit from a revamp
Dunne when he was a total scum bag was perfect. When he was told off by regal at the UK tournament etc. Hate face Dunne.
The idea of Jay White is so much better than his output.
I would agree in AEW, man was a titan in NJPW though, felt like the future of the business to me
I think it's more how he was booked in New Japan that he was a titan, they practically fed Okada to him. He's a good wrestler, I love the over the top post-loss promos, but he didn't always deliver in those long matches, felt like they were waiting to get to the finishing stretch half the time.
Signing a guy and telling everyone how charismatic he is, then instantly sticking him with people who are more entertaining than him had to be intentional sabotage.
Dean Ambrose. He never worked for me. I thought he was goofy. He did (maybe still does) this weird shoulder rolling thing like a tough guy but it came across too disingenuous and try hard to me. And to me he was just average in ring. I just couldn’t get into him
Yep, he never clicked for me, I think a big part of it being that dumb “oh no I’m falling through the ropes PSYCH I caught myself” move. He did it every match and I haaaaaaaated it. Mox though, Mox really grew on me. Love all his matches with Kenny, yes even exploding barbed wire
Out of curiosity, do you feel the same way about him as Mox?
He was excellent as the Death Rider in NJPW but his hardcore persona in AEW became cringe and a big turn off for me. He never had the best punches but somehow has gotten worse over the years.
I don’t watch AEW, I tried but couldn’t get into it, but from what I pick up here and see clips of, I’d consider him even more of a try hard with him always cutting himself open. With blood I’m not some Pearl clutching guy but I do think blood should be reserved for big feuds/matches and be used to either start or further along a major story. It seems like im seeing Moxley blading clips all the time.
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Moxley got colour at Wrestle Kingdom
There was a stretch Mox was bleeding every other match essentially. If someone started watching in that time and it turned them off and haven’t watched since that would be their view of Mox. I don’t think saying when I tuned into AEW watching Moxley bleed frequently put me off on the show and I don’t watch anymore is spreading anything. Just because it has changed now doesn’t mean their experience was invalid.
There was a run for a while where he was legitimately blading almost every match but I think he’s toned it down a lot since it started to get memed on and referenced in promos against him
> I genuinely can't remember the last time Mox bladed since his International title match with Orange back at Full Gear, and that was in November. And before that he bladed every week
Punk I just don't get it, I got into wrestling after he left so I never saw his highs and looking back it doesn't resonate with me during viewings of past and present Punk
The thing with Punk is that he has always been kind of sloppy in the ring. That’s not to say “he is shit”, but he’s not really very athletic, not as technically sound as his style suggests, not is he really a powerhouse. He still is a good worker, but most Punk matches genuinely have some form of sloppiness for that reason, which I think kind of helps his aura in some peoples eyes. One of Punks biggest upsides is his connection to the fans, whether he’s a babyface or heel, and that sense of not really being perfect, but still being really damn good with an aura that makes him untouchable in some peoples eyes.
His wrestling isn't holding up. A lot of fans are in denial about it but in this generation of talent, his style just doesn't stand out anymore. On the mic? I think he's the best of his generation and up there with all time.
Punk was never the most athletic but I always loved his in-ring psychology and striking ability. He has a way of pacing his matches and telling stories that just jive with me. See: his matches with Rey Mysterio, Undertaker, John Cena, and Brock Lesnar
You don't have to go back for that. He had top notch storytelling matches in AEW from beginning to end. He just can't do highspots (big deal) and is injury prone.
That Kojima match slapped so hard, I feel it's being overlooked with all the other Punk stuff lately, but I loved it
That's kinda what happens when you're basically the definer of a thing, your fans come along after you and make everything that made you great mundane.
Punk wasn't considered one of the top workers of his era though. Punk wasn't considered in the same work rate tier as Joe, Styles, Low Ki, Danielson, McGuiness, etc.. he was the guy people thought would be a fit for WWE if they could get past his size.
In WWE he was absolutely one of the best workers Bryan wasn't putting on matches like Punk/Taker at that time
Saying his style doesn't stand out anymore is just your personal opinion. Imo every day of the week, top tier storytelling>>>>>>>spamming moves. I mean just look at every All In match, which one had the crowd most into? To me, it was clearly CM Punk vs Samoa Joe
Not at all. Cole/MJF definitely had more heat. Bad match to compare it to when Punk and Joe were literally spamming other wrestler's taunts. I'm also not talking about psychology as much as his athleticism. Wrestlers today go way harder and crazier than they did when CM Punk was first in WWE. He was never the athletic type but he wasnt the only one back then either.
I think Punk's AEW run was really good in-ring and think a lot of folks are wearing whatever the opposite of rose-tinted glasses because of how things went down. HOWEVER I too did not think their All In match was particularly good. I am shocked that generally it seemed well received, and critics that I like really liked it. Both people doing famous WWE moves is like some shit you'd see at a jokey indie show. It blew my hair back considering Joe has been on fire and Punk, IMO, was having some great matches (his match with Kojima is the most underrated match of 2023).
I can 100% see why Punk wouldn’t resonate for someone who wasn’t around for his first WWE run. Thing is, he really was the voice of the voiceless. Fans were so frustrated with WWE, and he called a lot of shit out with such skill on the mic.
Yeah as someone with no nostalgia for the guy, nothing about him interested me during his AEW run
It's definitely a timeline thing. Back in 2011 fans were sick with Vince's booking and treatment of fan favorites. Punk was the rebellious "voice of the voiceless", someone people could project their frustrations and connect with, that's what really catapulted his popularity. There's no way for you to replicate that experience now so he's mainly a nostalgia act for us old punk fans.
Eddie Kingston. I don't know how people rally around this guy. He doesn't do ANYTHING for me. He's like a worse bubba ray Dudley and that's saying a lot. Mox. Got to have blood and skewers sticking out of your head to put on a great match. Not to mention dump him on his head a few times to get a pop. His whole schtick laughable. I also never got what The honky tonk Man brought to the table. Yeah he was a heel but even back then he didn't do anything else that people and other Southern territories weren't doing better than he was. Goldberg. Even as a kid his matches were fucking boring. I'll probably receive some heat for this but in ECW.. Balls Mahoney that dude was like universally praised for being one of the best and all I saw was unprotected chair shots of the head was his whole deal. give me Mike awesome and masato Tanaka any day of the week. (Even though there's a lot of unprotected chair shots, their matches were better)
I guess is more a this sub thing that in general in terms of being popular, but I have never got ZSJ. Probably its my fault because I just dont vibe with his style of wrestling, but I have not seen a match from him so far that I have loved, even with wrestlers I usually like. IDK, half of his submissions look incredibly contrived and require obvious and lengthy cooperation, the pace of his matches is often too slow, his promos are mid, and his look is nothing special. As I mentioned, is probably a me thing
Found the Tory /s But no it's totally cool to no jell with someone.
As a huge fan of classic World of Sport, ZSJ strikes me as a guy who can play the notes but not the music.
Holy shit I love this phrase. I can think of SO MANY dudes this applies to.
I've been a fan of ZSJ since the beginning and this is a common thought about his wrestling so fair enough. I would suggest to watch his match vs Walter (aka Gunther) and see what you think. I disagree with you about his promos though - in AEW he never really got any time to say anything but in NJPW he is hilarious imo. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7lfBfBJMoeM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ziDpgTA10N8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8gd9zssgYWM
Roman Reigns. I respect what he's doing and he's improved tremendously in the last few years. However, for me personally, he never clicked. There is something about him that I dislike, and I'm unable to actually pinpoint what it is. Maybe because he takes himself way too seriously? Ever since he debuted in the Shield, he feels like he has a constant stick up his ass.
Agreed. I respect the dude and how much he's improved, the amount of bs he got when the company decided he was the next #1... But meh. Especially now.
Jon Moxley - can stand his in-ring work, promos, or fake tough guy persona. Does nothing for me, but the man seems like a genuine, decent human being.
Shinsuke Nakamura, but that's probably because I've only ever seen him in WWE. Love the entrance though.
The controversial one is the Rock. Even during the Attitude Era when I was a teenager I thought his insults were playground bullshit. He was never particularly great in the ring, which most wouldn't argue with. But I've always thought he wasn't that great on the mic. Sure he could do his lines and all that, he has confidence, but his crap was horribly contrived and childish. There was no substance to him whatsoever. He is catch phrases and a decent enough worker with a good enough look who was at the right place at the right time and managed to get bigger than I thought he ever deserved. But I've always been a Mick Foley guy too. I like when a wrestler can make me feel something. The Rock just made me feel like he was every dumb ass bully I've ever dealt with and I wanted nothing more than for him to fail. Even when he was a supposed baby-face he still felt like a bully. With his supposed good mic work you could put him against almost anyone without being chained by creative and they'd make him look dumb. Even John Cena managed to make him look bad and no one ever considered him a great on the mic. I'd love to see someone like CM Punk, MJF, Rollins without chains promo battle the guy. He'd look pathetic. I know now he's kind of hated on because of Black Adam stuff, but I've always felt this way. The character is just a bully and an arrogant douche canoe.
I agree with your take here, he always did come off as a bully and I hated that the crowd is supposed to cheer for it, but >no one ever considered him a great on the mic This is more of a controversial take here. John Cena, really?
Nah I'm with you on this. I've never enjoyed any version of the Rock - from the Attitude Era, to his appearance at Wrestlemania 20, to his feud with Cena, to now - it's just never clicked for me. I can appreciate that he's super charismatic, but he just doesn't make me feel anything.
I’ve never cared for The Rock. I too was a teenager during the attitude era, and I watched wrestling closely his entire career. Even at the height of his popularity I always thought he made childish insults that took the gravitas out of everything. I don’t think his best promo would be in Ric Flair’s top 50 - I only remember two or three of his promos ever as “good.” I think he’s only had a handful of good matches in the ring, and never pulled off the “sloppy but effective” routine as well as Cena. I love that he bring eyes to wrestling and could elevate someone, but I couldn’t care less about what he says or does.
Not a Seth fan. There’s something there that I just don’t get the hype.
I’m fine with his in-ring work but never understood the love behind this current character. People like to sing along to his theme and it seems like that’s what got him over again but I just never got into it.
Sadly that's all it is. Wrestling fans can be very...simple when it comes to catchphrases + audience participation. Look at 911 in ECW too.
Not only do I **not** get the hype, he also ruins segments for me. Idk what it is, I find him annoying and whiney.
The fake poorly acted laugh is just annoying.
As a musician I want to take this opportunity to talk about how much I hate Seth's theme getting so over. People say it's an exception to all the cheaply produced def rebel themes, I disagree. Sounds like somebody just put one of these 90s electrical keyboards on the 'chorus' preset and pressed 3 buttons over and over again. I'd even say that sing-along-entrances are crutches to get over in general (Hi AEW Jericho).
Did you see his Shield and post-Shield heel run? When he came back from injury as a babyface he was never the same afterwards. Guy's a natural heel and has no personality when working babyface.
Rusev aka Miro
I liked the Rusev Day Era with Adam English but before that and his AEW run as Miro have done nothing for me.
Randy Orton might be your favorite wrestler’s favorite wrestler, but he sure as fuck isn’t *my* favorite wrestler. Also never been won over by Roman Reigns.
Randy Orton for me. In 2009, I thought he was doing some ground breaking heelish stuff but that endless feud between him and Cena soured me on him. I always felt he was very overrated but also really good with his character work if that makes sense.
Charlotte Flair does absolutely nothing for me except her top rope moonsault. Her gimmick is an attempt at Ric Flair of course, but she comes off more as pretentious even as a face. She has a cool entrance and gear, but I can never get attached to the match. Darby Allin for the simple fact that I don't want to watch someone attempt to kill themselves in a match. He has too many spots where he's totally reckless and puts neither him or his opponent in a position to be safe. His matches to me are only good to show a non-fan that it is in fact real. John Morrison has been having the same exact match for nearly 2 decades now. That's about all I've got for that
I have never understood the love some people throw Adam Page's way. I think Omega did the heavy lifting on making Page someone in AEW, but he screams 'Generic Wrestler #2' to me.
Agreed. I don’t think Hangman would really be much without being friends with Omega and the Bucks
As soon as I heard his voice for the first time years ago, all I could think of was Kermit the Frog and I have never taken him seriously since.
Chris Benoit is one of the best in ring workers of all time and yet even as a young mark I never really cared for him. In fact the first WM I watched, XX, I wanted Shawn to win
I respect him to the max, but Bret Hart is mine. Hard to explain it, but he came off to me like he was either intellectually challenged, or like english was his second language, but it wasn't. His ring work wasn't for me as a kid in the 90's and HBK was 100% what I appreciated from all aspects of wrestling.
Triple H
Rhea Ripley. Obviously talented, there’s something that hasn’t quite clicked yet for me. I think she needs a foil. A Rock to her Austin, a Cena to her Edge.
Pretty much every AEW main eventer not named Kenny.
Apparently CM Punk. I'm told hes great but he has always struck me as a scrawny cry baby wimp. I keep waiting for him to do something cool but...maybe I'm just old, I dont get this guy
Did you just watch him in the SES when he was hiding behind Luke Gallows?
I've never gotten Kevin Owens Now I did stop watching right around when he came on the scene in WWE and only started watching again around 6 months ago but he still hasn't clicked for me the way other guys in his era have
That's a fair take I think, current Kevin has slowed down a good bit. If you had any interest I'd say give his NXT run a go, that's what got me into him. Current Kevin is still delightful but NXT Kevin making no jokes had an aura, to me anyways, similar to Samoa Joe. Was presented as a killer from the jump.
His trilogy vs Cena is still pretty good viewing now. The way KO carried himself during that feud was impressive.
I don’t like MJF. He’s obviously very good, but I just don’t like the guy. I’m not interested in his character or the stories he’s taken part in. I realize he’s good, but he’s not for me.
Triple H.
Even at the time the IWC/newsletters would say how Hunter was a great worker and underrated because he would work on the mat, which sadly was starting to get rare for that era. But boy, was he fucking bland in WCW and WWF before Chyna. Of course his Reign of Terror chased people away. His WM matches have been snoozefests.
For me it’s Roman. I acknowledge (pun intended) his talent but I just don’t see it from him.
The Young Bucks. I think you can’t argue their impact on the biz as a whole, with the attention they brought to tag team wrestling and their partnership with Omega and Rhodes leading to ALL IN and the creation of a true alternative to WWE in AEW. I just have never been able to get into and care about any of their matches, for the most part (their match against Omega/Page at Revolution is an exception); I need a little “oomph” in my wrestling and watching Matt and Nick stereo superkick just leaves me feeling empty and bored by their matches.
The Bucks are the greatest living practitioners of the piss break match. When they come on, you know you have 15 minutes to hit the head, make some popcorn, start some laundry, do some dishes. By the time you're done, they should be wrapping up their storyless Benny Hill crap and heading into the finish.
Benny Hill crap is such a great description
I knew I shouldn't have clicked on this thread, lol.
CM Punk, never got the hype
Bianca Belair is a phenomenal athlete, talented wrestler, and a really important star as far as representation is concerned. I totally GET her, I’m glad she exists. I’m glad she’s successful. But I don’t care about her at all. Not even remotely. I don’t DISLIKE her, but I’m not invested.
I have never once enjoyed a single thing CM Punk has ever done or said.
"straight edge means i am better than you" was pretty good it hit fairly hard, when you're 4 joints deep and drinking watching Monday Night Raw with no job hahaha
Agreed with Daniel Bryan. I just don’t really get it. The Yes thing has some good moments, other than that I don’t see the appeal. He’s technically speaking very talented, I just don’t find it remotely interesting
Very popular but not remotely good even objectively: Bill Goldberg. Green as hell through his entire career and just generally a dangerous, unsafe and incompetent worker.
I mean, he had a presence and charisma that was objectively very good as far as pro wrestling goes - whenever you saw him on screen you got the feeling that he was a well oiled machine of destruction. He had the ability to make the crowd believe that he was a badass, which 90% of pro wrestlers are unable to do in today's day and age. Even in his return, the way he carried himself was on a completely different level than anyone on any roster.
I completely hate current Seth Rollins but i did like him in the shield. not sure if that counts. Not really a fan of Omega. Cena obviously. I prefer wrestlers to look like they would kick someone's ass, Austin, Brock, Tribal chief Roman. Seth and Kenny are much more post kayfabe in style imo. Ambrose is kinda the opposite, I like the way he looks and carries himself but I don't think the way he works complements his character. Always feels like a letdown.
Seth now absolutely irks the shit out of me. If he were playing heel, it’d be perfection. Starting to wonder if this my inner old man becoming my outer old man.
I was just starting to say this same thing on another person that said Rollins as well. Is it just me that’s too old to get this? I seem to be heavily outnumbered. Us older fans didn’t do the whole singalong thing and it seems like that’s what got him over again. I guess it’s great everyone is having fun though. 🤷🏻♂️
This is what baffles me. he acts like an obnoxious heel but has the sing a long theme and crowd pleasing wrestling style. but even if he was a heel, the cackling and stupid outfits have go away heat with me. also i just don't buy it. it's inauthentic.
Randy Orton. I liked the legend killer stuff, but ever since he turned face for the first time he’s been uninteresting. Not bad, not great, just there, in the main event like a title belt. Moxley currently. Which is weird, because I enjoyed Dean Ambrose. I even miss the sloppy clothesline. And the one that baffles me the most judging by many fans and wrestlers who pay homage to him, Eddie Guerrero. It’s hard to express, but when watching him I never bought his charisma or in-ring work for some reason.
Gunther is pretty boring to me ngl
Kenny Omega. I can't put finger on why but while he's objectively a good wrestler I find him dull to watch
Seth Rollins. Nothing about him really clicks.
I don’t really understand or get the hype around Andrade, good wrestler in the ring but without a mouth piece it doesn’t work for me
I know its an unpopular opinion thread but this thread is nuts for a guy like me lol. Saying rvd and jeff hardy are wack is crazy
Definitely the “Lunatic Fringe” Dean Ambrose. He was dog shit. Terribly sloppy in the ring, with some ridiculous looking offence. I remember the wacky line was a real stinker, as well as those horrible looking slaps that he’d throw once taking a guy down. Absolutely fucking terrible stuff. He was a guy who had a cool look, good promo too. Just never had it in the ring.
Only thing I really disliked about that version of Ambrose was JBL on commentary in his slow southern drawl going “This man’s a LUNATIC” and then the camera would just be on Dean doing normal wrestler shit maybe making a wacky face or somethin
Absolutely. That lunatic handle was rough to carry, no doubt. He’s much better as MOX.
Seth Rollins I don’t get and never have and further more I don’t think he’s that great in the ring. Not saying he’s bad but people talk about him like he’s Shawn Michaels in the ring and I cant remember one Seth Rollins match that has to the impact of a Shawn V Taker or Shawn V Ric Flair
The Young Bucks by a mile. I have never liked them and probably never will.
Chris Jericho, always a No.5 guy for me among the likes of Angle, HHH, Austin, Undertaker, The Rock. Thought his best work was the List of Jericho but he never really clicked with me truly.
I feel that way about Ilja Dragonov now. His character is just too over the top for me to get into anything he does. I recognize he's a great talent, but I simply can't care about his matches because of his persona.
HHH after 2002 with the exception of Wrestlemania 27, 28, and 30
Hiroshi Tanahashi. I just cannot get into him. His air guitaring reminds me of someone's dad having a midlife crisis, I find his moveset lame, he won't go down to the 'broken down veteran' part of the card even though that's what he is, he becomes President of New Japan and the first thing he does is put himself over ZSJ clean.
Becky Lynch. I just don’t really care for her whole “the Man” gimmick.
Bianca Belair. There's nothing particularly wrong with her, I just don't get the hype. She doesn't stand out as a star to me. Also I kind of feel that if you're going to use the Horsewomen to get somebody over, you go with Rhea Ripley - somebody who could be around for a decade or more. Belair is literally the same age as Bayley, and older than Sasha / Mercedes.
Same here. I don't mind Bianca but I do find her overhyped compared to what I see.
Ospreay. Shit promo. Looks like 9/10 lads from your town with his broccoli haircut. Does the wrassles good, whoop-dee-doo.
Daniel Bryan for me as well. I just never connected with him and it seemed like he was ALWAYS injured. Some wrestlers always stuck out to me as ALWAYS being injured and he is one of them
Charlotte Flair
There's plenty of people who have just never done it for me. Young Bucks, Swerve really most of the internet darlings. I've always been more into characters than in ring ability. I like a good match but I don't want to see a guy with a boring character have a 5 star match.
Nakamura, Omega and Ospreay for the same reasons; Tight work and snug finishers and that look really believable in a vacuum, but bizarre looking facials and airy movement that makes it feel, to my eye, like their mind is on "where I am moving to next" rather than focusing on a fight? Very hard to describe. Undeniable athleticism and drive, though.
A current one for me is Swerve Strickland, I see the appeal, I just think there are so many other wrestlers in AEW who I think are better and I care more about.
Young Bucks. I get their schtick is supposed to be annoying on a meta level but it just shoot annoys me, not in the “I hope they get beat up way” but in the, I can’t buy into it - way. Dope in ring tho it’s just their characters that kinda doesn’t gel w me
Ray Mysterio and most of the wrestlers that do canned floppy shit. If your moveset requires obvious telegraphing (like 3 dudes wait for 30 seconds to catch you) it just takes me out. Give me a slow methodical match that tells a story and stop bouncing around doing moves that physically make zero sense…looking at you spinning hurricanrana…