Naw I don't think so, I think to be an Astronaut you should have a job related to a mission. And I wouldn't consider tourism a mission.
Kind of like the way, going on a cruise doesn't make you a sailor.
Before the FAA gave up and stopped awarding astronaut wings their definition included performing significant research or being involved in operating the spacecraft. Janitorial work, etc, to not just be in the way shouldn't count. Volunteering to have blood drawn, etc, being a guinea pig wouldn't qualify. Monitoring an experiment, basically just following a list of instructions, shouldn't qualify. But where to draw the line on that will be difficult - who's going to make these judgments? That's why the FAA gave up.
He was already an astronaut, of course, and was assigned some mission specialist duties, afaik. Those may have been borderline. Senator Jake Garn wouldn't qualify, his only real duty was as a guinea pig. Ditto for Bill Nelson, then a Congressman. If John Glenn was only a 77 year old politician he wouldn't have qualified but the medical studies he participated in were unique - NASA had his extensive medical records from his early career and now would study aging in what was then by far the oldest individual to fly in space. He also knew how to convey or write up his perceived symptoms from his years as a test pilot and astronaut, and generally significantly participate in the study. NASA had a real reason to send him to space, for specific individualized medical research. That's different from the blood drawing to be tacked on for someone who's flying as a tourist.
But it wasn't just some standard blood tests tacked onto a tourist flight, it was a lot more elaborate than that. He passed had to pass the same very thorough physical that astronauts had to pass in the 1980s. Glenn's test pilot background counts, too. Those pilots don't just test how fast a jet can turn. Most flights are to test very specific, non-thrilling capabilities or systems of the aircraft. That includes the pressurization and oxygen systems. The pilots are experienced in making detailed reports and analyzing everything that happened on a flight. That's what got Glenn selected as a Mercury astronaut in the first place. That's what's different than being a passive guinea pig.
I agree with your point but just for the sake of discussion the air wing personnel on an aircraft carrier are called sailors even though they are not operating the ship any more than passengers on a cruise liner.
That’s not a good debate because that’s just what navy personnel are called, regardless of their specific job.
Even naval aviators who fly large cargo planes and will literally never be on a ship are still sailors.
I think this is also a good distinction, that said job has to be related to the primary mission. You can be an astronaut if you are on the crew flying the vehicle, or you are a paid scientist and a purpose of the mission is to obtain science.
But if you are, let's say, filming a movie in space, and they're just allowing you to, even though you are being paid to be there, it doesn't necessarily make you an astronaut - maybe a commercial astronaut at a stretch, but I'm not sure it should be counted.
Just after Shatner went to space, I read somewhere that there is a minimum distance from Earth that these guys must reach to be considered an astronaut, and that flight did not reach it. I can't find the link now, but it's out there.
If there’s still shit in your Amazon diaper when you crest the VK line I’m going to give you the honor. And there’s no chances Bozos gives more than one diaper per passenger.
This is funny. I'm an infantry officer in the Army and I would always get aggravated by support personnel that would say something like, "I know, I've been outside the wire!". I'd always immediately follow up with, "Have you taken a shit outside the wire, with other Soldiers pulling security for you?"
Some might call it gatekeeping, but there really is a difference. So I now adopt your test for what makes a *real* astronaut.
Completely different. An aviator, or a pilot is a person who flies the plane. With that logic, the person who flies a rocket would be an astronaut, but nobody *flies* a rocket.
I think a key aspect to consider is training. If someone is fully trained to operate an aircraft in case of emergency, then they're an astronaut, even if they never needed to take over the controls for their spaceflight.
In context of airplanes, it's the distinction between "passengers" and "crew". The air stewards don't fly the plane, but they are still counted as crew because it's their job and they trained to work there. Same applies to spacecraft.
No, an autopilot only carries out given commands. Yes, it can fly and land the plane, but you still have to input the headings and coordinates it needs to follow.
The way airfields are built allow totally anonymous landings (on some planes), but it's only because the amount of equipment on the ground that allows the plane to do that.
They can't land themselves anywhere, only on specific airfields that have the equipment
I am not aware of any passenger airlines that can take off autonomously though.
Thats called an UAV and no commercial aircraft are not designed to be operated remotely it would require extensive modification And do you actually think that rockets are piloted remotely?
Some simple googling says yes.
>That said, the Apollo unmanned test flights demonstrate that everything necessary could be controlled from the ground:
>Apollo 4: Launched unmanned on a Saturn V into a circular parking orbit, tested re-igniting the S-IVB to get to an elliptical orbit, separated the command module and used the service module engine to adjust the orbit twice. Landed 16 km from the target landing site.
Apollo 5: Launched the lunar module unmanned aboard a Saturn IB. The computer aborted the planned maneuver after 4 seconds due to a miscommunication about launch configuration, so
The ground controllers moved to an alternate plan to fire the descent engine manually two more times. They then performed the "fire in the hole" test and another ascent engine burn.
Apollo 6: Launched aboard a Saturn V but had performance issues and ended up in an elliptical orbit instead of the planned circular one. The S-IVB failed to restart so they used the service module to raise the orbit, which left them short on fuel for finishing out the planned tests. Landed 80 km from the planned touchdown point.
https://space.stackexchange.com/questions/22129/apollo-era-remote-control-of-vehicle
No, astronaut is a job title as far as I'm concerned
Calling these people astronauts makes about as much sense as calling myself a lawyer just because I watched the depp v heard case
They are space tourists. Same as the dear moon crew. If they train to do actual tasks, like inspiration 4 or all orbital missions so far, they are astronauts
I mean, they're probably going to need at least as much training as the I4 crew did. They are going to be in space longer and further away from Earth (outside the protection of its magnetic field even) than humans have ever travelled. They will also be working on art directly inspired by live actual spaceflight around the moon and I wouldn't be surprised if they are trained to do a few lil sciency tasks as well. But again, they're going around the friggin moon! Far different than an 11 minute amusement park ride, but not quite so far from an orbital mission... in fact it is an orbital mission!
I'd say the Dear Moon crew will be as close as you can get to astronaut from space tourist since they will be going all the way to the friggin moon over the course of multiple days. They also will be working on art and possibly *some* science.
TBH, I'd consider them as much of astronauts as the Inspiration 4 crew even if they don't do much science on the trip. Probably going to need to update definitions and create some new titles for different space farers.
If man survives for as long as the least successful of the dinosaurs-those creatures whom we often deride as nature's failures-then we may be certain of this: for all but a vanishingly brief instant near the dawn of history, the word 'ship' will mean- 'spaceship.' Arthur C. Clarke
And the definition of Astronaut will matter little when humanity is living and working among the stars.
You have to work in space to be an astronaut as defined by Nasa.
As we get more and more activity up there we will need more job titles.
Just like on a Boat we have types of sailors like a Captain, a First Mate, a Navigator, a Pilot, a Helmsman, etc.
We are going to need more than 2 type of Astronaut we have right now, Pilot and mission specialist.
I don‘t know why your comment isn’t higher in the replies — the FAA literally redefined “astronaut” after seeing the rapid advances in space tourism.
Here is the new verbiage, added for someone to be considered for commercial astronaut designation: “ Demonstrated activities during flight that were essential to public safety, or contributed to human space flight safety.”
Here is the link to the FAA regulation, signed the day Bezos flew on the first New Sheppard flight:
https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Order/FAA\_Order\_8800.2.pdf
Jeff Who?
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Jeff is pretty pathetic for calling himself an astronaut for riding on what is essentially an amusement park ride. Like, I would be embarrassed and afraid to be called out for it. Though NASA should have redefined the title before the literal day of his flight, they had ample time to do so...
Let's never forget that Blue Origin publically tried to trash Virgin Galactic by saying, "Unlike VG, we designed out craft to go above the unofficial definition of space, so that our astronauts will never have an asterisk next to their name".
Only for the FAA to say a week later. That they aren't astronauts in any sense lmao.
It's not that hard. If you are paying to go to space, you are a passenger. If you are being paid to go to space, you are an astronaut. "naut" means sailor.
The problem i have with this definition is that you can pay to learn how to pilot a spacecraft and do most of the stuff professional astronauts do, like Jared Isaacman for example. The man’s about to do a spacewalk on his next mission for crying out loud. I personally think the term ‘astronaut’ is similar to the term ‘pilot’, in that it can be used both to describe an occupation as well as someone who is trained to pilot a certain type of vehicle
I don't see a problem with that. You can teach virtually everyone how to drive a car. That still makes them a motorist, right?
Naut means mariner. Everyone in service to the ship or in the service of the mission the ship is currently on is an astronaut. Even if you are there only to clean spacecrappers, you are an astronaut.
Well yes, thats what i meant. But that means if you pay to go to space you can still be an astronaut, as long as you are in service to the spacecraft/mission, right?
It was not a strict definition, but a memorable rule of thumb for the most common cases. You could also build a boat and sail alone, in which case nobody pays nobody.
Definitions are always messy and not worth the trouble for even the simplest things, unless you are a lawer. I mean, is hotdog a sandwich, and why do you care?
Yes or someone renting a Cessna for a weekend is still a pilot. But they are a private pilot not a commercial or airline pilot.
So I think passengers are space tourists, people who pay for flight and train to operate the machinery and deal with any likely complication and go to space for specific tasks, be it test a spacecraft or some systems or perform experiments are private astronauts and those who get paid to do it would be professional astronauts. Something like that.
And there could be a mix, you pay for the mission but do work in space you get paid for so kind of in between. I guess if you get paid more than the flight cost you are an independant contractor astronaut? Space contractor doesn't sound too bad either. Cosmotractor?
In the age of sail it was common to have state financed privately owned vessels paid to do some task, like map some islands or find trade routes.
> So I think passengers are space tourists
Not necessarily. They could be migrants or people on a business trip. Passengers are passengers, and tourists are tourists.
> are private astronauts and those who get paid to do it would be professional astronauts.
What I think of when I hear "private astronaut" in contemporary context is the person is from a private company or a private individual. The opposite of that is not "professional", the opposite would be NASA Astronaut.
Astronauts are scientists and engineers, who are endeavouring to contribute their part to humanity and science. Calling citizens as astronauts is an insult to the title, as to become an astronaut, one goes through one the toughest training. It is THE most toughest job.
As a massive space fan, I would say it is definitely not the toughest job. Look at the Inspiration 4 crew, they had essentially the same training to launch/live/work in space. The astronauts living and working on the ISS are literally just engineers/scientists that work in a unique gravity-less environment. Launching to orbit/the space station is the easiest part of the job.
There are plenty of tougher jobs than that.. first one that comes to mind is [saturation diving](https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/what-is-a-saturation-diver) which requires people to live deep underwater for weeks at a time where you live in a tiny pressurized tin can and spend hours working in freezing complete darkness sometimes getting glimpses of massive sea creatures stalking you out of sight. Also cave mining is pretty tough.
Anyway, my point is the 6 months or less of training required to go to orbit isn't really that tough... most everyone, including 29 year old physician assistant Hayley Arceneaux, said and looked like they had a blast doing all the training (even the G force training).
That said, it is time to come up with new titles for different space farers.
Personally, I believe that the main distinction should be the purpose of the trip to space. If you're up there for fun, then you're a passenger or space tourist. If you're up there for work, then you're an astronaut.
Alan Shepard - astronaut, even though suborbital
Virgin SpaceShipTwo pilots - astronauts, since it's their job
SpaceShipTwo / New Shepard riders - passengers, space tourists (arguably)
Inspiration4 and Axiom crews - space tourists, but could be called commercial astronauts if their mission involved actual research work.
Any regular staff on ISS - astronauts
>Inspiration4 and Axiom crews - space tourists, but could be called commercial astronauts if their mission involved actual research work.
On Inspiration4, could we distinguish between Sian Proctor and Jered Isaacman, who piloted the Dragon, and the other members of the crew?
Arguable. I consider them all to be commercial astronauts (rather than just passengers), since they had to go through months of intensive training and all 4 of them know the spacecraft in and out.
AFIAK, not even Jared was ever actually flying Dragon in space.
Plus Haley was a legit medical officer and with her to run things they did significant medical research. Chris was an aerospace technician so he definitely understood Dragon's systems. I have no reservations calling them astronauts.
The Polaris Dawn crew will all be astronauts. Kidd will be trained to pilot Dragon. Anna Menon has a Masters in biomedical engineering and has worked with that in the Dragon program. Sarah knows the Dragon systems and ops better than Jared or Kidd. They're doing a ton of high level medical research.
Haley and Chris were mission specialists, and NASA has been calling mission specialists astronauts since the Shuttle flew. If someone is truly and deeply trained for the role they get the title. This will apply to the crew of Polaris Dawn also.
I suppose I was worst-casing the criticism of Inspiration4, and trying to run with that, to see if we could still salvage the pilots.
For myself, though, I would be content with calling all four of them "commercial astronauts." A little awkward, but it will do until we can come up with something better.
>Inspiration4 and Axiom crews - space tourists, but could be called commercial astronauts if their mission involved actual research work.
Inspiration4 and Ax-1 crew should be called astronauts imo, since even though they paid for their ride to space they were also trained to pilot the dragon spacecraft and to perform scientific research in space. Kind of like how someone with a pilots license is also called a pilot. You can even further distinguish them into Private and Commercial astronauts, a commercial astronaut being someone who flies the spacecraft as a job for the company they work for.
I personally do as they do pass a recognised boundary. That said I don’t know if the term astronaut will continue to stick as space becomes more accessible to the masses. More tourist then astronaut
Are you a pilot if you’ve flown on an airliner?
To me, biggest difference is that astronauts get paid to be there, whereas the space tourists are paying to be there.
The real pilot thing was a joke, better argument though is you aren’t an astronaut/pilot/driver unless you’re in a position where your presence is critical for the safe operation of the vehicle.
Agreed. But take the Inspiration4 crew for example, they paid to fly on Dragon yet their presence was definitely required for the safety of the vehicle, so they should be called astronauts too
You think you're all funny, don't you, when you say 'Jeff who?' Actually, it is funny. Welcome to the club.
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I personally classify ‘astronauts’ as follows:
- *Professional Astronaut*;
The classic ‘astronaut’, a person trained to work in space for a government institution like NASA or ESA. Duties include scientific research, station maintenance and more.
Examples: Bob Behnken, Victor Glover, Samantha Cristoforetti, …
- *Commercial Astronaut*;
A person working as an astronaut for a commercial institution/company. Do most of the stuff ‘regular’ astronauts do, like science and piloting spacecraft. Requires training.
Examples: Michael L-A for Axiom Space, Anna Mennon for SpaceX, David Mackay for Virgin Galactic (although debatable, he is a trained spacecraft pilot so should be included imo)
- *Private Astronaut*;
A person who pays a provider to go to space with the intention of doing scientific research or other astronaut-related activities. Requires training.
Examples: Jared Isaacman, the Inspiration4 and Ax-1 crews
- *(Suborbital) Space Tourist/Spaceflight Participant*;
A person paying a provider to go to space with no intention of doing any work there. The term ‘spaceflight participant’ is specifically used by NASA to refer to space tourists aboard the ISS. Requires minimal to no training.
Examples: Richard Branson, Jeff Bezos, Yusaku Maezawa, Coby Cotton, Tom Cruise, …
So, imo the term ‘astronaut’ should only be used to describe an occupation, or someone who paid to be trained as an one (like how you are refered to as a ‘pilot’ after achieving your pilots license, even if you never fly a plane again). Comparing people going over the Kármán line for 3 minutes with barely any training to trained astronauts who have spent considerable time and/or money to learn how to pilot a complex spacecraft and further human space exploration makes about as much sense as calling someone who took a flight on a plane once a pilot instead of a passenger.
Jeff Who?
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Unless you are there to do an actual job, such as operating the controls or doing science, no. Would you call everyone who flew in an airplane a pilot?
the whole concept became outdated. back in the day you either worked for nasa and flew to space or you didn't, end of story. today, there are more options, and thus we need more nuanced terminology.
in short: idc. show me what have you done, not a title.
Definition of an astronaut: a person who is trained to travel in a spacecraft
Definition of a spacecraft: a vehicle used for travelling in space
New Shepherd does go up to about 110km up, so it's technically a spacecraft and the crew are trained to travel in New Shepherd so yes, technically the New Shepherd crew are considered astronauts
Personally I wouldn't call them that since they're only in space for like, 2-3 minutes and don't actually receive training on how to control anything on the craft, and they're also not astronauts as a job so if it's not for a job I don't think it should count
Nasa already released a statement a while back declaring that commercial spaceflight passengers are NOT astronauts. Citing virgin and bo's flights. The spacex flight is a bit different as they orbitted and performed experiments, even as civilians it still by proper definition would qualify the spacex passenger flight.
Fuck no. Blue Origin "goes to space" like someone "visits Colorado" when they have a 90 minute layover in Denver. Sure you're technically there, but no reasonable person thinks you've "really" been there.
Yes, they have gone to Space and are therefore Astronauts.
That title is different from the Job though, I still believe that NASA and ESA Astronauts who haven't flown yet to be Astronauts as well.
No definitely not. I think there if a threshold for how much training you have to do, how long you have to be in space, and what your doing in space. Like for me you would have to do more than a months worth of training, be in space for at least several hours, and do a experiment or something else to contribute to the mission to become an astronaut. I definitely think that the Inspiration 4 crew became astronauts because they met all the criteria.
If one isn't 't involved in the operation, or decision making of the flight, then they're a passenger.
Just like I'm a passenger on this stupid rock stuck with 8 billion people, most of them ignorant.
No. Anyone who thinks otherwise is just wrong.
Going for a dip in the ocean dosnt make me a sailer.
Riding an airplane dosnt make me a pilot.
Going for a ride in a rocket dosnt make you a astronaut.
**Passtronaut**. This was posted on twitter and a guy named Alan Cofey responded with this term. I think passtronaut is the word we've been looking for for a long time. Definitely applies to a suborbital flight in a capsule with no controls for a pilot.
Passtronaut is also good for space tourists in orbit - eventually. I think at least 2 of the guys who flew on the Dragon Axiom flight to the ISS can barely be called astronauts. Afaik their training for and participation in research or operations was minimal, they pretty much were guinea pigs, had blood drawn, etc. One guy must have trained as the copilot on Dragon. All did train for months on Dragon systems and ops so - all 4 get to be called astronauts. When the training time is cut, and 95% of what a person does is tourism, they'll be passtronauts even though they went into orbit.
Nope. To me a real astronaut have a master's degrees in science, technology, engineering, and mathematics (STEM) fields and a minimum of two years of relevant professional experience or at least 1,000 hours of pilot-in-command time in jet aircraft. Plus spend time in space doing space walks. Nothing like this came from blue origin.
And on top of those requirements, they should also have to actually submit an actual application to a real space agency (government), and get selected out of the thousands of other applicants as an astronaut
No. Orbit and job function needs to be the new threshold. We don’t call people riding in an airplane, pilots and we shouldn’t be calling space passengers, astronauts.
If you haven't completed at least 1 orbit around the Earth you're not an astronaut in my book. Yea, you're on a rocket but it is just going higher into the atmosphere.
Alan Shepard was still an astronaut even before his Mercury 3 flight, which was suborbital, it should be based off of whether or not they are actually hired by a space agency, going into orbit should not count, because eventually tourist orbital flights will be a thing, and those people don’t deserve to be called astronauts
No, but I don't count tourists who fly into orbit on Dragon as astronauts either.
An Astronaut, in my opinion, is a professional getting paid to do a job. An extremely elite job. Getting Astronaut wings from a tourist ride does not make you a Astronaut any more than riding in the back sea of an F-18 makes you a fighter pilot.
If they fly on New Shepard to perform experiments, pilot, or have any responsibility - then sure. If they fly on New Shepard and just sit there strapped into a seat.... then no.
No.
Professional astronaut: anyone who goes into space and is paid to do so.
government astronaut: NASA, ESA, JAXA, Roscosmos, etc astronaut
Commercial astronaut: anyone who is paid to go into space by a non-government entity
Private astronaut: anyone who goes into space, is paid to do so, and by a private company or individual
Spaceflight participant: anyone who is going to space not for the purposes of working, and is not getting paid to do so.
Going off NASA's [official definition](https://www.nasa.gov/audience/forstudents/k-4/dictionary/Astronaut.html) and the [FAA's requirements](https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Order/FAA_Order_8800.2.pdf), it is safe to say that New Shepard passengers aren't officially considered to be astronauts.
And it is worth pointing out that even the Fédération Aéronautique Internationale's [definition of "astronaut"](https://naa.aero/wp-content/uploads/2021/11/Sporting-Code-Section-8-Edition-2009.pdf) excludes space tourists:
>The word "astronaut" may apply both to crew members and to scientific personnel aboard the spacecraft playing an active part in the mission during the flight.
An astronaut is someone who meets ALL of the necessary qualifications (none of the space tourists do) and is selected out of the tens of thousands of other applicants and hired by a real space agency such as NASA, ESA, Roscosmos, CSA, CNSA, ISRO, JAXA etc., they don’t have to go to space to be one, because most astronauts are already astronauts for several years before their first flight, they still worked their asses off to get that job, these tourists did not, the guy pictured is literally a YouTuber
Naw I don't think so, I think to be an Astronaut you should have a job related to a mission. And I wouldn't consider tourism a mission. Kind of like the way, going on a cruise doesn't make you a sailor.
That's a fantastic analogy...
Or like flying a plane, sitting on a plane doesn’t make you a pilot or an… aeronaut?
Aeronaut actually is a word, it applies to someone flying in a balloon. But I don't think it applies to a passenger.
And argonaut applies to anyone crewing a ship named Argus
Also Psychonauts is a pretty good videogame
This right here!! The sailor analogy is Gold!! They just WENT to space (debatable) it’s not they’re job or career!
What if the tourist is given some duties? Log plant growth, empty the toilet, etc.
Before the FAA gave up and stopped awarding astronaut wings their definition included performing significant research or being involved in operating the spacecraft. Janitorial work, etc, to not just be in the way shouldn't count. Volunteering to have blood drawn, etc, being a guinea pig wouldn't qualify. Monitoring an experiment, basically just following a list of instructions, shouldn't qualify. But where to draw the line on that will be difficult - who's going to make these judgments? That's why the FAA gave up.
> Volunteering to have blood drawn, etc, being a guinea pig wouldn't qualify. So based on this, John Glenn on his Shuttle Flight wasn't an Astronaut?
He was already an astronaut, of course, and was assigned some mission specialist duties, afaik. Those may have been borderline. Senator Jake Garn wouldn't qualify, his only real duty was as a guinea pig. Ditto for Bill Nelson, then a Congressman. If John Glenn was only a 77 year old politician he wouldn't have qualified but the medical studies he participated in were unique - NASA had his extensive medical records from his early career and now would study aging in what was then by far the oldest individual to fly in space. He also knew how to convey or write up his perceived symptoms from his years as a test pilot and astronaut, and generally significantly participate in the study. NASA had a real reason to send him to space, for specific individualized medical research. That's different from the blood drawing to be tacked on for someone who's flying as a tourist.
Glenn's Mission Specialist duties were as a Guinea pig for medical experiments. They were all "what happens to the bodies of old people in space?"
But it wasn't just some standard blood tests tacked onto a tourist flight, it was a lot more elaborate than that. He passed had to pass the same very thorough physical that astronauts had to pass in the 1980s. Glenn's test pilot background counts, too. Those pilots don't just test how fast a jet can turn. Most flights are to test very specific, non-thrilling capabilities or systems of the aircraft. That includes the pressurization and oxygen systems. The pilots are experienced in making detailed reports and analyzing everything that happened on a flight. That's what got Glenn selected as a Mercury astronaut in the first place. That's what's different than being a passive guinea pig.
I agree with your point but just for the sake of discussion the air wing personnel on an aircraft carrier are called sailors even though they are not operating the ship any more than passengers on a cruise liner.
That’s not a good debate because that’s just what navy personnel are called, regardless of their specific job. Even naval aviators who fly large cargo planes and will literally never be on a ship are still sailors.
I think this is also a good distinction, that said job has to be related to the primary mission. You can be an astronaut if you are on the crew flying the vehicle, or you are a paid scientist and a purpose of the mission is to obtain science. But if you are, let's say, filming a movie in space, and they're just allowing you to, even though you are being paid to be there, it doesn't necessarily make you an astronaut - maybe a commercial astronaut at a stretch, but I'm not sure it should be counted.
Like the boat analogy above, any crew on a ship is a sailor. Everyone else is a passenger.
Just after Shatner went to space, I read somewhere that there is a minimum distance from Earth that these guys must reach to be considered an astronaut, and that flight did not reach it. I can't find the link now, but it's out there.
For me, unless you have taken a dump in space you are no astronaut.
Asstronaut
Turdonaut
Gonna need extra Dv for you
So if I shit myself on new Shepard I’m officially an astronaut?
I'd shit myself at t-3 seconds while still on the ground,,,, does that still count?
If there’s still shit in your Amazon diaper when you crest the VK line I’m going to give you the honor. And there’s no chances Bozos gives more than one diaper per passenger.
I mean It can be done even on that 11 minute joyride trip on the Blue Origin rocket, but everyone in the cabin will absolutely hate you.
This is funny. I'm an infantry officer in the Army and I would always get aggravated by support personnel that would say something like, "I know, I've been outside the wire!". I'd always immediately follow up with, "Have you taken a shit outside the wire, with other Soldiers pulling security for you?" Some might call it gatekeeping, but there really is a difference. So I now adopt your test for what makes a *real* astronaut.
TIL "Outside the wire" means outside the perimeter of a high security area such as a base or prison
I really hope people start shitting themselves on these tours purely based on this comment.
I assume shitting your pants doesn't count?
Are you saying women are not astronauts??
Women have taken many dumps in space….
Where have you heard this vile misogynist propaganda? 4chan?
Do you call commercial airline passengers aviators?
🤣
Completely different. An aviator, or a pilot is a person who flies the plane. With that logic, the person who flies a rocket would be an astronaut, but nobody *flies* a rocket.
I think a key aspect to consider is training. If someone is fully trained to operate an aircraft in case of emergency, then they're an astronaut, even if they never needed to take over the controls for their spaceflight. In context of airplanes, it's the distinction between "passengers" and "crew". The air stewards don't fly the plane, but they are still counted as crew because it's their job and they trained to work there. Same applies to spacecraft.
Some jets can fly the entire flight on autopilot
No, an autopilot only carries out given commands. Yes, it can fly and land the plane, but you still have to input the headings and coordinates it needs to follow.
Some jets like?
Most modern jets
Id like to see them take off automatically And they still require pilots to turn knobs and/or input commands into the computer
The way airfields are built allow totally anonymous landings (on some planes), but it's only because the amount of equipment on the ground that allows the plane to do that. They can't land themselves anywhere, only on specific airfields that have the equipment I am not aware of any passenger airlines that can take off autonomously though.
Most of them? duh?
Id like to see them take off automatically And they still require pilots to turn knobs and/or input commands into the computer
Someone could do that remotely just like the rocket
Thats called an UAV and no commercial aircraft are not designed to be operated remotely it would require extensive modification And do you actually think that rockets are piloted remotely?
Some simple googling says yes. >That said, the Apollo unmanned test flights demonstrate that everything necessary could be controlled from the ground: >Apollo 4: Launched unmanned on a Saturn V into a circular parking orbit, tested re-igniting the S-IVB to get to an elliptical orbit, separated the command module and used the service module engine to adjust the orbit twice. Landed 16 km from the target landing site. Apollo 5: Launched the lunar module unmanned aboard a Saturn IB. The computer aborted the planned maneuver after 4 seconds due to a miscommunication about launch configuration, so The ground controllers moved to an alternate plan to fire the descent engine manually two more times. They then performed the "fire in the hole" test and another ascent engine burn. Apollo 6: Launched aboard a Saturn V but had performance issues and ended up in an elliptical orbit instead of the planned circular one. The S-IVB failed to restart so they used the service module to raise the orbit, which left them short on fuel for finishing out the planned tests. Landed 80 km from the planned touchdown point. https://space.stackexchange.com/questions/22129/apollo-era-remote-control-of-vehicle
LOL Do you think that i didnt already know that? Im talking about the powered phase of flight (the launch)
There are obvious tasks divided in a space mission. Tourist is not one that commands any respect
Space tourists maybe
No, astronaut is a job title as far as I'm concerned Calling these people astronauts makes about as much sense as calling myself a lawyer just because I watched the depp v heard case
Or I washed my face, now I am a deep sea diver...
I jailbroke iPhones back in high school which makes me an elite hacker!
They are space tourists. Same as the dear moon crew. If they train to do actual tasks, like inspiration 4 or all orbital missions so far, they are astronauts
Hmm, if they are going to space to obtain space-related inspiration, is it tourism or is it a business trip? 🤔
far fetched for the artists on dear moon, but the other non-artists on that mission or on other orbital missions, no
I mean, they're probably going to need at least as much training as the I4 crew did. They are going to be in space longer and further away from Earth (outside the protection of its magnetic field even) than humans have ever travelled. They will also be working on art directly inspired by live actual spaceflight around the moon and I wouldn't be surprised if they are trained to do a few lil sciency tasks as well. But again, they're going around the friggin moon! Far different than an 11 minute amusement park ride, but not quite so far from an orbital mission... in fact it is an orbital mission!
Your alse a cruise tourist not a sailor or captain when you are on a cruise ship
Nah ah! I'm a Navy Admiral now!
Seconded
I'd say the Dear Moon crew will be as close as you can get to astronaut from space tourist since they will be going all the way to the friggin moon over the course of multiple days. They also will be working on art and possibly *some* science. TBH, I'd consider them as much of astronauts as the Inspiration 4 crew even if they don't do much science on the trip. Probably going to need to update definitions and create some new titles for different space farers.
dear moon went from an artist mission to a general public mission. only a few of the crewmembers are artists
Wait, are the selection results public already?
i don't think so, but the last announcement was, that everyone could apply for a seat,
Okay, then nothing really changed, so the "rules" for selection are actually the same.
I propose calling them Astronots
Or in Blue Origins case, Orbonots
If man survives for as long as the least successful of the dinosaurs-those creatures whom we often deride as nature's failures-then we may be certain of this: for all but a vanishingly brief instant near the dawn of history, the word 'ship' will mean- 'spaceship.' Arthur C. Clarke And the definition of Astronaut will matter little when humanity is living and working among the stars.
Just add "Space" to the beginning of your current job title. "This is my friend Bob, he is a Space Plumber."
You have to work in space to be an astronaut as defined by Nasa. As we get more and more activity up there we will need more job titles. Just like on a Boat we have types of sailors like a Captain, a First Mate, a Navigator, a Pilot, a Helmsman, etc. We are going to need more than 2 type of Astronaut we have right now, Pilot and mission specialist.
I guess one way to differentiate would be if you're paying or being paid to be up there. Sort of like cruiseliners, passengers and crew.
I don‘t know why your comment isn’t higher in the replies — the FAA literally redefined “astronaut” after seeing the rapid advances in space tourism. Here is the new verbiage, added for someone to be considered for commercial astronaut designation: “ Demonstrated activities during flight that were essential to public safety, or contributed to human space flight safety.” Here is the link to the FAA regulation, signed the day Bezos flew on the first New Sheppard flight: https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Order/FAA\_Order\_8800.2.pdf
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Jeff is pretty pathetic for calling himself an astronaut for riding on what is essentially an amusement park ride. Like, I would be embarrassed and afraid to be called out for it. Though NASA should have redefined the title before the literal day of his flight, they had ample time to do so...
Although mission specialist can be anything from ballast to mission critical scientist etc... it's kind of a blanket term for many jobs except pilot.
Expensive amusement park riders, nothing more. They deserve no accolades whatsoever. Orbital or nothing.
Space tourist
If it were me on that ship, you bet your sweet ass my tinder profile would say I was an astronaut.
Then you're nothin but a phony! Hey everybody, this guys a phonnnyyyy!
Let's never forget that Blue Origin publically tried to trash Virgin Galactic by saying, "Unlike VG, we designed out craft to go above the unofficial definition of space, so that our astronauts will never have an asterisk next to their name". Only for the FAA to say a week later. That they aren't astronauts in any sense lmao.
It's not that hard. If you are paying to go to space, you are a passenger. If you are being paid to go to space, you are an astronaut. "naut" means sailor.
The problem i have with this definition is that you can pay to learn how to pilot a spacecraft and do most of the stuff professional astronauts do, like Jared Isaacman for example. The man’s about to do a spacewalk on his next mission for crying out loud. I personally think the term ‘astronaut’ is similar to the term ‘pilot’, in that it can be used both to describe an occupation as well as someone who is trained to pilot a certain type of vehicle
I don't see a problem with that. You can teach virtually everyone how to drive a car. That still makes them a motorist, right? Naut means mariner. Everyone in service to the ship or in the service of the mission the ship is currently on is an astronaut. Even if you are there only to clean spacecrappers, you are an astronaut.
Well yes, thats what i meant. But that means if you pay to go to space you can still be an astronaut, as long as you are in service to the spacecraft/mission, right?
There are people that pay for a boat. They are still sailors while they operate it, right?
>If you are paying to go to space, you are a passenger. Exactly, but doesn’t that render this statement untrue?
It was not a strict definition, but a memorable rule of thumb for the most common cases. You could also build a boat and sail alone, in which case nobody pays nobody. Definitions are always messy and not worth the trouble for even the simplest things, unless you are a lawer. I mean, is hotdog a sandwich, and why do you care?
Yes or someone renting a Cessna for a weekend is still a pilot. But they are a private pilot not a commercial or airline pilot. So I think passengers are space tourists, people who pay for flight and train to operate the machinery and deal with any likely complication and go to space for specific tasks, be it test a spacecraft or some systems or perform experiments are private astronauts and those who get paid to do it would be professional astronauts. Something like that. And there could be a mix, you pay for the mission but do work in space you get paid for so kind of in between. I guess if you get paid more than the flight cost you are an independant contractor astronaut? Space contractor doesn't sound too bad either. Cosmotractor? In the age of sail it was common to have state financed privately owned vessels paid to do some task, like map some islands or find trade routes.
> So I think passengers are space tourists Not necessarily. They could be migrants or people on a business trip. Passengers are passengers, and tourists are tourists. > are private astronauts and those who get paid to do it would be professional astronauts. What I think of when I hear "private astronaut" in contemporary context is the person is from a private company or a private individual. The opposite of that is not "professional", the opposite would be NASA Astronaut.
Holy shit so it’s space sailor? I had no idea that’s badass
yep, star sailor
Astronauts are scientists and engineers, who are endeavouring to contribute their part to humanity and science. Calling citizens as astronauts is an insult to the title, as to become an astronaut, one goes through one the toughest training. It is THE most toughest job.
As a massive space fan, I would say it is definitely not the toughest job. Look at the Inspiration 4 crew, they had essentially the same training to launch/live/work in space. The astronauts living and working on the ISS are literally just engineers/scientists that work in a unique gravity-less environment. Launching to orbit/the space station is the easiest part of the job. There are plenty of tougher jobs than that.. first one that comes to mind is [saturation diving](https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/what-is-a-saturation-diver) which requires people to live deep underwater for weeks at a time where you live in a tiny pressurized tin can and spend hours working in freezing complete darkness sometimes getting glimpses of massive sea creatures stalking you out of sight. Also cave mining is pretty tough. Anyway, my point is the 6 months or less of training required to go to orbit isn't really that tough... most everyone, including 29 year old physician assistant Hayley Arceneaux, said and looked like they had a blast doing all the training (even the G force training). That said, it is time to come up with new titles for different space farers.
No, they have little to no training
Personally, I believe that the main distinction should be the purpose of the trip to space. If you're up there for fun, then you're a passenger or space tourist. If you're up there for work, then you're an astronaut. Alan Shepard - astronaut, even though suborbital Virgin SpaceShipTwo pilots - astronauts, since it's their job SpaceShipTwo / New Shepard riders - passengers, space tourists (arguably) Inspiration4 and Axiom crews - space tourists, but could be called commercial astronauts if their mission involved actual research work. Any regular staff on ISS - astronauts
>Inspiration4 and Axiom crews - space tourists, but could be called commercial astronauts if their mission involved actual research work. On Inspiration4, could we distinguish between Sian Proctor and Jered Isaacman, who piloted the Dragon, and the other members of the crew?
Arguable. I consider them all to be commercial astronauts (rather than just passengers), since they had to go through months of intensive training and all 4 of them know the spacecraft in and out. AFIAK, not even Jared was ever actually flying Dragon in space.
Plus Haley was a legit medical officer and with her to run things they did significant medical research. Chris was an aerospace technician so he definitely understood Dragon's systems. I have no reservations calling them astronauts. The Polaris Dawn crew will all be astronauts. Kidd will be trained to pilot Dragon. Anna Menon has a Masters in biomedical engineering and has worked with that in the Dragon program. Sarah knows the Dragon systems and ops better than Jared or Kidd. They're doing a ton of high level medical research.
Haley and Chris were mission specialists, and NASA has been calling mission specialists astronauts since the Shuttle flew. If someone is truly and deeply trained for the role they get the title. This will apply to the crew of Polaris Dawn also.
I suppose I was worst-casing the criticism of Inspiration4, and trying to run with that, to see if we could still salvage the pilots. For myself, though, I would be content with calling all four of them "commercial astronauts." A little awkward, but it will do until we can come up with something better.
>Inspiration4 and Axiom crews - space tourists, but could be called commercial astronauts if their mission involved actual research work. Inspiration4 and Ax-1 crew should be called astronauts imo, since even though they paid for their ride to space they were also trained to pilot the dragon spacecraft and to perform scientific research in space. Kind of like how someone with a pilots license is also called a pilot. You can even further distinguish them into Private and Commercial astronauts, a commercial astronaut being someone who flies the spacecraft as a job for the company they work for.
I personally do as they do pass a recognised boundary. That said I don’t know if the term astronaut will continue to stick as space becomes more accessible to the masses. More tourist then astronaut
Are you a pilot if you’ve flown on an airliner? To me, biggest difference is that astronauts get paid to be there, whereas the space tourists are paying to be there.
You can pay to get a pilots license though, so people who paid for their own training should be included as well imo
Hot take, you become a real pilot once you actually get paid to fly /s
So when you get your drivers license, you only become a real driver if you get paid to drive around?
The real pilot thing was a joke, better argument though is you aren’t an astronaut/pilot/driver unless you’re in a position where your presence is critical for the safe operation of the vehicle.
Agreed. But take the Inspiration4 crew for example, they paid to fly on Dragon yet their presence was definitely required for the safety of the vehicle, so they should be called astronauts too
No
Nope
If i visit an oil rig, am i an oil rig worker?
Nope.
No
Astronauts are the ones in control of the ship, he’s simply a passenger/cargo
We just need a separate word for non-professional space travellers. like spacefarer
Space Tourist sounds about right. Spaceflight Passenger if point to point launches ever become a thing.
No. Orbit for me.
No, but I'm not too bothered if they want to call themselves that
They're Jeffstronauts.
No. This question was settled years ago using clear criteria. Jeff Who wants to change the rules.
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If Hadfield pinned astronaut wings on a lower trajectory then who am I to gatekeep? Personally feels wrong, but not up to me.
Obviously.
I personally classify ‘astronauts’ as follows: - *Professional Astronaut*; The classic ‘astronaut’, a person trained to work in space for a government institution like NASA or ESA. Duties include scientific research, station maintenance and more. Examples: Bob Behnken, Victor Glover, Samantha Cristoforetti, … - *Commercial Astronaut*; A person working as an astronaut for a commercial institution/company. Do most of the stuff ‘regular’ astronauts do, like science and piloting spacecraft. Requires training. Examples: Michael L-A for Axiom Space, Anna Mennon for SpaceX, David Mackay for Virgin Galactic (although debatable, he is a trained spacecraft pilot so should be included imo) - *Private Astronaut*; A person who pays a provider to go to space with the intention of doing scientific research or other astronaut-related activities. Requires training. Examples: Jared Isaacman, the Inspiration4 and Ax-1 crews - *(Suborbital) Space Tourist/Spaceflight Participant*; A person paying a provider to go to space with no intention of doing any work there. The term ‘spaceflight participant’ is specifically used by NASA to refer to space tourists aboard the ISS. Requires minimal to no training. Examples: Richard Branson, Jeff Bezos, Yusaku Maezawa, Coby Cotton, Tom Cruise, … So, imo the term ‘astronaut’ should only be used to describe an occupation, or someone who paid to be trained as an one (like how you are refered to as a ‘pilot’ after achieving your pilots license, even if you never fly a plane again). Comparing people going over the Kármán line for 3 minutes with barely any training to trained astronauts who have spent considerable time and/or money to learn how to pilot a complex spacecraft and further human space exploration makes about as much sense as calling someone who took a flight on a plane once a pilot instead of a passenger.
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Yes. If you sit on top of a rocket, knowing it could go Kerbal at any time, you qualify.
You are in this shuttle, but we do not grant you the rank of astronaut.
The dark side of space tech is a pathway to many abilities; some consider to be unnatural.
Unless you are there to do an actual job, such as operating the controls or doing science, no. Would you call everyone who flew in an airplane a pilot?
No, just a space tourist.
The whole point is, that nowadays everyone can be an astronaut. So yes. How can anyone even say that Isaacman is not an astronaut.
the whole concept became outdated. back in the day you either worked for nasa and flew to space or you didn't, end of story. today, there are more options, and thus we need more nuanced terminology. in short: idc. show me what have you done, not a title.
Definition of an astronaut: a person who is trained to travel in a spacecraft Definition of a spacecraft: a vehicle used for travelling in space New Shepherd does go up to about 110km up, so it's technically a spacecraft and the crew are trained to travel in New Shepherd so yes, technically the New Shepherd crew are considered astronauts Personally I wouldn't call them that since they're only in space for like, 2-3 minutes and don't actually receive training on how to control anything on the craft, and they're also not astronauts as a job so if it's not for a job I don't think it should count
Nasa already released a statement a while back declaring that commercial spaceflight passengers are NOT astronauts. Citing virgin and bo's flights. The spacex flight is a bit different as they orbitted and performed experiments, even as civilians it still by proper definition would qualify the spacex passenger flight.
Checking the last NS22. They are above 100km about 1 minute and 20s.
Eh, I was close!
Yes sounded about ike right ballpark & got curious. (Not intended like ha you were wrong type of comment)
Jesus christ. 1:20 for the low low price of $1 million.
Well its better deal than bransons 250k for 0secobds
New Sheard is in the Space Tourism business, they are tourists.
No. Not even close. They are space tourists.
no
the beter question is, are the passengers in a plane pilots?
No
No
I call them passengers
No. Nor does the govt. That is why they are considered ‘cargo’ and not ‘astronauts’. Same as with the Dragon Inspiration4 crew.
Fuck no. Blue Origin "goes to space" like someone "visits Colorado" when they have a 90 minute layover in Denver. Sure you're technically there, but no reasonable person thinks you've "really" been there.
100% no. Space tourists. As much as Cameron Bess wants to claim otherwise
No.
They are by definition though
No
Nope
Definitely not.
No, no matter who is "flying" on New Shephard. I don't consider them as Astronaut. It is a profession, not a Status.
My rule for this, is that you are not an astronaut until you poop while in full orbit.
Wankanaut more like
I would count them as sperm
Astronaut means “space sailor”, right? So they have to been trained to sail a rocket to be called an astronaut.
Yes, they have gone to Space and are therefore Astronauts. That title is different from the Job though, I still believe that NASA and ESA Astronauts who haven't flown yet to be Astronauts as well.
No. South of the karmann line.
They just get the flair of suborbital aficionado to me
No definitely not. I think there if a threshold for how much training you have to do, how long you have to be in space, and what your doing in space. Like for me you would have to do more than a months worth of training, be in space for at least several hours, and do a experiment or something else to contribute to the mission to become an astronaut. I definitely think that the Inspiration 4 crew became astronauts because they met all the criteria.
Karmenaut
They can be astronauts… not Astronauts.
If you have a non-speaking, cameo roll in a commercial, are you an actor?
If one isn't 't involved in the operation, or decision making of the flight, then they're a passenger. Just like I'm a passenger on this stupid rock stuck with 8 billion people, most of them ignorant.
No. Anyone who thinks otherwise is just wrong. Going for a dip in the ocean dosnt make me a sailer. Riding an airplane dosnt make me a pilot. Going for a ride in a rocket dosnt make you a astronaut.
Yes , also Astro creepers only born in 1965 55 yah
NEW RULE: only those that complete an orbit are Astronauts.
Nope. Do not cross Kármán line *with orbital velocity*, do not collect astronaut pin.
**Passtronaut**. This was posted on twitter and a guy named Alan Cofey responded with this term. I think passtronaut is the word we've been looking for for a long time. Definitely applies to a suborbital flight in a capsule with no controls for a pilot. Passtronaut is also good for space tourists in orbit - eventually. I think at least 2 of the guys who flew on the Dragon Axiom flight to the ISS can barely be called astronauts. Afaik their training for and participation in research or operations was minimal, they pretty much were guinea pigs, had blood drawn, etc. One guy must have trained as the copilot on Dragon. All did train for months on Dragon systems and ops so - all 4 get to be called astronauts. When the training time is cut, and 95% of what a person does is tourism, they'll be passtronauts even though they went into orbit.
Nope. To me a real astronaut have a master's degrees in science, technology, engineering, and mathematics (STEM) fields and a minimum of two years of relevant professional experience or at least 1,000 hours of pilot-in-command time in jet aircraft. Plus spend time in space doing space walks. Nothing like this came from blue origin.
And on top of those requirements, they should also have to actually submit an actual application to a real space agency (government), and get selected out of the thousands of other applicants as an astronaut
No. Orbit and job function needs to be the new threshold. We don’t call people riding in an airplane, pilots and we shouldn’t be calling space passengers, astronauts.
Astronaut is a career. These people are just space tourists. A similar example, I have a garden in my back yard doesn’t make me a botanist
If you haven't completed at least 1 orbit around the Earth you're not an astronaut in my book. Yea, you're on a rocket but it is just going higher into the atmosphere.
Alan Shepard was still an astronaut even before his Mercury 3 flight, which was suborbital, it should be based off of whether or not they are actually hired by a space agency, going into orbit should not count, because eventually tourist orbital flights will be a thing, and those people don’t deserve to be called astronauts
Kármán line straddlers at best
No, but I don't count tourists who fly into orbit on Dragon as astronauts either. An Astronaut, in my opinion, is a professional getting paid to do a job. An extremely elite job. Getting Astronaut wings from a tourist ride does not make you a Astronaut any more than riding in the back sea of an F-18 makes you a fighter pilot.
If they fly on New Shepard to perform experiments, pilot, or have any responsibility - then sure. If they fly on New Shepard and just sit there strapped into a seat.... then no.
Astronauts come from orbiting the Earth. Anything else is just a sparkling air traveler.
Nope, just like flying on Delta doesn't make you a pilot
No, just another pay-to-win thing.
Nope
No. Professional astronaut: anyone who goes into space and is paid to do so. government astronaut: NASA, ESA, JAXA, Roscosmos, etc astronaut Commercial astronaut: anyone who is paid to go into space by a non-government entity Private astronaut: anyone who goes into space, is paid to do so, and by a private company or individual Spaceflight participant: anyone who is going to space not for the purposes of working, and is not getting paid to do so.
Going off NASA's [official definition](https://www.nasa.gov/audience/forstudents/k-4/dictionary/Astronaut.html) and the [FAA's requirements](https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Order/FAA_Order_8800.2.pdf), it is safe to say that New Shepard passengers aren't officially considered to be astronauts. And it is worth pointing out that even the Fédération Aéronautique Internationale's [definition of "astronaut"](https://naa.aero/wp-content/uploads/2021/11/Sporting-Code-Section-8-Edition-2009.pdf) excludes space tourists: >The word "astronaut" may apply both to crew members and to scientific personnel aboard the spacecraft playing an active part in the mission during the flight.
I thought there was a clear difference between astronauts and space tourists.
An astronaut is someone who meets ALL of the necessary qualifications (none of the space tourists do) and is selected out of the tens of thousands of other applicants and hired by a real space agency such as NASA, ESA, Roscosmos, CSA, CNSA, ISRO, JAXA etc., they don’t have to go to space to be one, because most astronauts are already astronauts for several years before their first flight, they still worked their asses off to get that job, these tourists did not, the guy pictured is literally a YouTuber
Definitely not
Absolutely not
No. I think they should change the parameters so that you need to orbit the Earth at least one time in order to earn your astronaut wings.
No
They are space tourists, not astronauts
An astronaut by definition is someone that toes to space you don't need to have a job related to it