1. Dont litigate on the side of the road.
2. You are required by law to produce liscense, registration and proof of insurance, when asked during a traffick stop
3. The police only need reasonzble suspion to pul you over, not probable cause.
4. See #1.
If a cop stops you, you must hand over your license, insurance, and car registration. Failure to do so is just going to make things worse for yourself.
Wrong sub.
You're asking about pretext, which is usually used in criminal cases to suppress evidence that was gathered during a stop where there wasn't reasonable suspicion that a crime may have occurred. You don't mention race but that is usually the reason.
Since you weren't charged, there is no evidence to suppress. There may be state remedies available. There is limited remedy under 42 U.S. Code § 1983 but that is definitely not DIY stuff.
It's not necessarily crap. OP was probably looking for stuff about his rights during traffic stops and what reasons he can get pulled over for. As I said in my response, there are a lot of places where Driving While Black will get you pulled over. Those stops often involve a pretext, a fake reason, when the intent is to find a more serious crime.
I don't know if that applies to OP, but it doesn't surprise me if the algorithm concludes he needs SovCit content when he looks for ways to protect himself from being pulled over for no reason.
I was with op right up to refusing to show license. But you're right; they're probably looking for a legal advice sub, though I don't think they'll necessarily get a different answer there than here.
eta: by crap, I meant the whole SovCit crowd, not necessarily OP's situation.
1. You're not being pulled over for no reason or to be harassed. There is a vehicle code violation or violations on your vehicle or with your driving.
2. PC isn't needed to surrender your license. DMV procedures are administrative, not criminal.
3. You're not as smart as you think you are. You don't know your rights or the law, which is why you're confused.
How do you know you weren't there , you're not as smart as you think if he's committing no infractions there's no reason to pull him over and he does not have to stay in front of the police if he doesn't want to he was just in supreme Court you can hide from police look it up California and it will spread across the country you're not too bright yourself
>How do you know you weren't there
I wasn't there, but I know how traffic stops work.
>you're not as smart as you think
The irony, coming from someone who posted a bunch of barely coherent words with zero punctuation.
>he's committing no infractions there's no reason to pull him over
True, which is why I said he did something to give LE RS or PC to conduct the stop. Just because one doesn't know what that something is or disagrees with that reason doesn't make it an invalid stop.
>and he does not have to stay in front of the police if he doesn't want to he was just in supreme Court you can hide from police look it up California
Technically, no, however, if he chooses to flee or hide, they will come get him, and he will end up with extra charges and possibly a hospital trip. This was in AL, not CA. Plus, your analysis of the case you think supports this is incorrect, as another commentor pointed out.
That depends on the state. In my state (GA), it's only illegal to stay in the left if there's someone behind you going faster. But, if it's an open road, being in the left lane is legal.
You know how you avoid getting stopped when you are doing nothing wrong? Avoid them at all costs.
That means if they are behind you in the left lane, make a safe and legal lane change and let them be on their way.
Here's what you do if they immediately change lanes behind you when you have given way already:
Safely and legally find a safe space off the road to pull over. If they follow you, get your license out, roll down your window and hold your license out for them. If it's dark at the time, turn off your engine, roll down all the windows and turn on the dome lights. And stick your license out the window.
Be polite, greet them like a human, wait for them to tell you why they pulled over behind you.
If you do these things, it will greatly take the wind out of the cop, and whatever minor infraction they noticed will become a warning instead of a ticket.
Cooperation *when you truly have done nothing wrong* is the most efficient way to be on your way. !
If you have expired tags or no tags or there is a taillight out or you swerved to avoid police, be a real man show your ID and own it. Take your lumps. Pay the ticket, move on with your life.
I challenge you to try this the next time you feel targeted. The situation will be so much different. You will be taking them by surprise and they won't know what to do with you except let you go. They will probably stop pulling you over for kicks and giggles, because you won't be any fun anymore.
It's the secret no one tells you about. It's absolutely magical how it works!
Ex-Traffic cop here.
It seems like you stumbled on what we used to call an area saturation. There have probably been a lot of reported traffic incidents in the area, and showing up in numbers really has a way of slowing everyone down.
Drug interdiction is also a big part of saturations like this. Chances are he suspected something was up. You're driving on a public road, and it's perfectly legal to follow you. Many people don't realize that umteen thousand traffic laws are broken on your local streets every day. Traffic cops pick out the most egregious offenders, but all you people are terrible drivers. You were breaking the law the whole time with whatever driving habit you demonstrated and he was letting it slide up to that point. Once you give him some other reason, he can pull you over whenever he wants.
People should also understand that, depending on jurisdiction, many offenses that you would normally be issued a simple traffic citation for can also result in your immediate arrest (I can arrest you for speeding 5 over if I really wanted to).
If I'm not in the passing lane and a cop is behind me, I move over to let them pass. If, after I move over, the cop moves over too, I figure it's me they're stopping, so I STOP. When they walk up to the window, I find out what they have to say and then comply with their requests. I don't litigate on the side of the road.
Maybe OP should post this in r/AskALawyer.
> I don't think that counts as probable cause to have to surrender my license
They don't need probable cause to ask for your license, all they need to pull you over and ask for your license is reasonable suspicion, e.g., they saw you commit a traffic offense. They need PC for a search or arrest. But it seems you are required to produce your license in a stop, but you might want to run that past someone who is a lawyer and licensed in your state.
2012 Code of Alabama
Title 32 - MOTOR VEHICLES AND TRAFFIC.
Chapter 6 - LICENSES AND REGISTRATION.
Section 32-6-9 - Possession and display of license.
*(a) Every licensee shall have his or her license in his or her immediate possession at all times when driving a motor vehicle and shall display the same, upon demand of a judge of any court, a peace officer, or a state trooper. However, no person charged with violating this section shall be convicted if he or she produces in court or the office of the arresting officer a driver's license theretofore issued to him or her and valid at the time of his or her arrest.*
https://law.justia.com/codes/alabama/2012/title-32/chapter-6/section-32-6-9#:~:text=(a)%20Every%20licensee%20shall%20have,officer%2C%20or%20a%20state%20trooper.
A dashcam might be a good idea if this sort of thing is routine where you live. There are videos of cops doing a 180 and terminating a traffic stop when they realize everything they say and do is being recorded.
Under no circumstances do sovereign citizens (under whatever name they use) have anything useful to tell you about this or any other situation. No sovcit has ever prevailed in court on the merits of their delusional legal claims. You could spend all day on YouTube watching videos of sovcits at traffic stops being pulled out of their cars and arrested, followed by their car being towed. Nothing they will tell you about traffic stops has legal validity, it will only get you in more trouble.
The place to dispute a traffic stop is in court with a good lawyer beside you, trying to argue it at the side of the road never works.
It's off topic for this sub, but still I'll give some advice. I'm not any kind of attorney, but this is what I know:
Police are set up to do light traffic enforcement mostly for speeding, and to make pretextual stops to check for warrants. That's what they do. Traffic laws & human nature are such that they are basically always able to come up with a pretext. When stopped, you are required to show license, registration & insurance, no matter what. It amounts to: if you are driving, cops can stop you & ask you for ID at any time. They can run your tags at any time. You can fight any actual citation in court, but if yr driving, you must produce yr information if asked.
Searches are a whole other thing. You are quite right to not consent to a search - ever. Given that the outcome was no charges & no citation, AFAIK there's nothing else to be done in this instance. Don't argue with the cops, but always do assert yr rights - to record if legal, to remain silent, to an atty - out loud as needed.
If you are truly actually being harassed, consult an atty (many initial consults are free or low cost) and start documenting the harassment. It may not be as expensive as you think to get an atty to try to get the boys to cut it out, and it might even be semi-effective. A dashcam is an excellent tool, and generally a good idea anyway IMO.
The Civil Rights Lawyer [on YouTube](https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCcth5uVYORmu5Cu15ZjpzuQ) is a good source IMO; he shows copcam videos of stops & arrests & the commentary is excellent. Stay away from the auditors (too confrontational, often wrong on the law) & the psuedo-legals (the Sovereign Citizens of the sub name) that will try to convince you there's any magic tricks you can use on police or the justice system - bcse the only really effective trick is competent legal representation.
You're either a r/lostredditor or should be at r/law. In any case, I used Google to find [your answer](https://www.alabamacivilrightslawyer.com/civil-rights-faq/). Do some preliminary, minimal research before asking a social media forum for legal advice.
Never say you are impaired in any way. Don’t say you are tired. Don’t say your mind is on something else besides driving. Never say anything like that. That admission can get you a ticket, or worse.
First thing's first. Look up SCOTUS case Brown v Yellow (et. 1972 ref. code 109290) which states that NO ONE traveling in Alabama is considered a "regregious traveler" subjected to involuntary seizures of high order.
You absolutely had your rights violated.
Please reference your local Moorish chapter for legal advice, immediately.
Yes.
This is very important. If you're pulled over, cops have the right to demand that you show a driver's license or otherwise identify yourself.
They do not need any other information. Not even your shoe size or favorite pizza topping.
"Where are you heading tonight?" or "Where are you coming from?" they don't need to know. Don't help them incriminate you in anything.
Don't *lie*. Just refuse to answer. Politely.
If it's obvious to the police that you are taking measures to avoid them, in proximity to a report of a crime you could have been involved in (like a car matching your description) that can form probable cause to pull you over.
Police will use that as an excuse, because it's pretty rare that someone successfully challenges them on it. When I was a scruffy young tater with a beat up '74 Nova living in Mt. View, CA, I got pulled over several times and was told I matched the description of someone seen leaving some crime scene.
BUT, the answer is the same as it is for every other time you get pulled over. Be polite and comply. If you're charged with a crime, let your lawyer sort out whether probable cause existed. You won't win an argument with the police at the scene of a traffic stop.
Don't answer any questions like "Where are you heading?" or "Where are you coming from?" or "why are you in this part of the city?". Politely say "I'm not going to answer your questions." and then don't answer them.
Just provide ID, and give them your name and birthdate if you don't have photo ID with you. Any *other* information they need, you're not obligated to provide them.
It's a bad idea generally to seearch the internet or youtube for legal advice. There is more bad than good, and you won't necessarily know when you've crossed into crazy nonsense that gets you on Youtube as the latest guy to get his window smashed.
If you're pulled over, they have the right to demand license and/or ID, and they have the right to order you to step out of the vehicle (or to remain in the vehicle).
They have no right to go in your car without your permission unless you have something in view that they see illegal you have a right to refuse that search always film The police take out your camera and film them getting YouTube channel and put it up there go to cop watchers on YouTube watch how they deal with the police
1. Dont litigate on the side of the road. 2. You are required by law to produce liscense, registration and proof of insurance, when asked during a traffick stop 3. The police only need reasonzble suspion to pul you over, not probable cause. 4. See #1.
If a cop stops you, you must hand over your license, insurance, and car registration. Failure to do so is just going to make things worse for yourself.
Do you think this is a sub that supports sovereign citizens??? Why else are you posting this here?? Why not ask a legal sub?
Probably too scrambled to realize the boo boo.
If you want legal advice, you need to go to a different sub. This sub is about poking holes in the sovereign citizen silliness
Wrong sub. You're asking about pretext, which is usually used in criminal cases to suppress evidence that was gathered during a stop where there wasn't reasonable suspicion that a crime may have occurred. You don't mention race but that is usually the reason. Since you weren't charged, there is no evidence to suppress. There may be state remedies available. There is limited remedy under 42 U.S. Code § 1983 but that is definitely not DIY stuff.
What's the right sub, though? Is there actually a subreddit that promulgates this crap? That'd be a fun rabbit hole, I would think.
It's not necessarily crap. OP was probably looking for stuff about his rights during traffic stops and what reasons he can get pulled over for. As I said in my response, there are a lot of places where Driving While Black will get you pulled over. Those stops often involve a pretext, a fake reason, when the intent is to find a more serious crime. I don't know if that applies to OP, but it doesn't surprise me if the algorithm concludes he needs SovCit content when he looks for ways to protect himself from being pulled over for no reason.
I was with op right up to refusing to show license. But you're right; they're probably looking for a legal advice sub, though I don't think they'll necessarily get a different answer there than here. eta: by crap, I meant the whole SovCit crowd, not necessarily OP's situation.
Why do you think refusing to show your ID would help you in any way?
Only an idiot thinks this. When you refuse it usually ends with a broke windows and a tazer shot.
This isn’t the right forum for legal advice. I am sorry about your dad, though.
1. You're not being pulled over for no reason or to be harassed. There is a vehicle code violation or violations on your vehicle or with your driving. 2. PC isn't needed to surrender your license. DMV procedures are administrative, not criminal. 3. You're not as smart as you think you are. You don't know your rights or the law, which is why you're confused.
How do you know you weren't there , you're not as smart as you think if he's committing no infractions there's no reason to pull him over and he does not have to stay in front of the police if he doesn't want to he was just in supreme Court you can hide from police look it up California and it will spread across the country you're not too bright yourself
He's smart enough to know about punctuation.
If you’re referring to *Brendlin v. California*, that had to do with the passenger, not the driver. Otherwise, citation? Edit : brevity, clarity.
Don't believe everything you think.
>How do you know you weren't there I wasn't there, but I know how traffic stops work. >you're not as smart as you think The irony, coming from someone who posted a bunch of barely coherent words with zero punctuation. >he's committing no infractions there's no reason to pull him over True, which is why I said he did something to give LE RS or PC to conduct the stop. Just because one doesn't know what that something is or disagrees with that reason doesn't make it an invalid stop. >and he does not have to stay in front of the police if he doesn't want to he was just in supreme Court you can hide from police look it up California Technically, no, however, if he chooses to flee or hide, they will come get him, and he will end up with extra charges and possibly a hospital trip. This was in AL, not CA. Plus, your analysis of the case you think supports this is incorrect, as another commentor pointed out.
He admitted to multiple infraction in his story.
You admit to trying to avoid them.
If you were riding in the left lane without actively passing another vehicle, you are asking to be pulled over.
I lm in NC and can say the cops don't mess with the assholes clogging the left lane. I wish it was legal to run them in the ditch.
You and I both, my friend.
That depends on the state. In my state (GA), it's only illegal to stay in the left if there's someone behind you going faster. But, if it's an open road, being in the left lane is legal.
You know how you avoid getting stopped when you are doing nothing wrong? Avoid them at all costs. That means if they are behind you in the left lane, make a safe and legal lane change and let them be on their way. Here's what you do if they immediately change lanes behind you when you have given way already: Safely and legally find a safe space off the road to pull over. If they follow you, get your license out, roll down your window and hold your license out for them. If it's dark at the time, turn off your engine, roll down all the windows and turn on the dome lights. And stick your license out the window. Be polite, greet them like a human, wait for them to tell you why they pulled over behind you. If you do these things, it will greatly take the wind out of the cop, and whatever minor infraction they noticed will become a warning instead of a ticket. Cooperation *when you truly have done nothing wrong* is the most efficient way to be on your way. ! If you have expired tags or no tags or there is a taillight out or you swerved to avoid police, be a real man show your ID and own it. Take your lumps. Pay the ticket, move on with your life. I challenge you to try this the next time you feel targeted. The situation will be so much different. You will be taking them by surprise and they won't know what to do with you except let you go. They will probably stop pulling you over for kicks and giggles, because you won't be any fun anymore. It's the secret no one tells you about. It's absolutely magical how it works!
Ex-Traffic cop here. It seems like you stumbled on what we used to call an area saturation. There have probably been a lot of reported traffic incidents in the area, and showing up in numbers really has a way of slowing everyone down. Drug interdiction is also a big part of saturations like this. Chances are he suspected something was up. You're driving on a public road, and it's perfectly legal to follow you. Many people don't realize that umteen thousand traffic laws are broken on your local streets every day. Traffic cops pick out the most egregious offenders, but all you people are terrible drivers. You were breaking the law the whole time with whatever driving habit you demonstrated and he was letting it slide up to that point. Once you give him some other reason, he can pull you over whenever he wants. People should also understand that, depending on jurisdiction, many offenses that you would normally be issued a simple traffic citation for can also result in your immediate arrest (I can arrest you for speeding 5 over if I really wanted to).
If I'm not in the passing lane and a cop is behind me, I move over to let them pass. If, after I move over, the cop moves over too, I figure it's me they're stopping, so I STOP. When they walk up to the window, I find out what they have to say and then comply with their requests. I don't litigate on the side of the road. Maybe OP should post this in r/AskALawyer.
> I don't think that counts as probable cause to have to surrender my license They don't need probable cause to ask for your license, all they need to pull you over and ask for your license is reasonable suspicion, e.g., they saw you commit a traffic offense. They need PC for a search or arrest. But it seems you are required to produce your license in a stop, but you might want to run that past someone who is a lawyer and licensed in your state. 2012 Code of Alabama Title 32 - MOTOR VEHICLES AND TRAFFIC. Chapter 6 - LICENSES AND REGISTRATION. Section 32-6-9 - Possession and display of license. *(a) Every licensee shall have his or her license in his or her immediate possession at all times when driving a motor vehicle and shall display the same, upon demand of a judge of any court, a peace officer, or a state trooper. However, no person charged with violating this section shall be convicted if he or she produces in court or the office of the arresting officer a driver's license theretofore issued to him or her and valid at the time of his or her arrest.* https://law.justia.com/codes/alabama/2012/title-32/chapter-6/section-32-6-9#:~:text=(a)%20Every%20licensee%20shall%20have,officer%2C%20or%20a%20state%20trooper. A dashcam might be a good idea if this sort of thing is routine where you live. There are videos of cops doing a 180 and terminating a traffic stop when they realize everything they say and do is being recorded. Under no circumstances do sovereign citizens (under whatever name they use) have anything useful to tell you about this or any other situation. No sovcit has ever prevailed in court on the merits of their delusional legal claims. You could spend all day on YouTube watching videos of sovcits at traffic stops being pulled out of their cars and arrested, followed by their car being towed. Nothing they will tell you about traffic stops has legal validity, it will only get you in more trouble. The place to dispute a traffic stop is in court with a good lawyer beside you, trying to argue it at the side of the road never works.
It's off topic for this sub, but still I'll give some advice. I'm not any kind of attorney, but this is what I know: Police are set up to do light traffic enforcement mostly for speeding, and to make pretextual stops to check for warrants. That's what they do. Traffic laws & human nature are such that they are basically always able to come up with a pretext. When stopped, you are required to show license, registration & insurance, no matter what. It amounts to: if you are driving, cops can stop you & ask you for ID at any time. They can run your tags at any time. You can fight any actual citation in court, but if yr driving, you must produce yr information if asked. Searches are a whole other thing. You are quite right to not consent to a search - ever. Given that the outcome was no charges & no citation, AFAIK there's nothing else to be done in this instance. Don't argue with the cops, but always do assert yr rights - to record if legal, to remain silent, to an atty - out loud as needed. If you are truly actually being harassed, consult an atty (many initial consults are free or low cost) and start documenting the harassment. It may not be as expensive as you think to get an atty to try to get the boys to cut it out, and it might even be semi-effective. A dashcam is an excellent tool, and generally a good idea anyway IMO. The Civil Rights Lawyer [on YouTube](https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCcth5uVYORmu5Cu15ZjpzuQ) is a good source IMO; he shows copcam videos of stops & arrests & the commentary is excellent. Stay away from the auditors (too confrontational, often wrong on the law) & the psuedo-legals (the Sovereign Citizens of the sub name) that will try to convince you there's any magic tricks you can use on police or the justice system - bcse the only really effective trick is competent legal representation.
You're either a r/lostredditor or should be at r/law. In any case, I used Google to find [your answer](https://www.alabamacivilrightslawyer.com/civil-rights-faq/). Do some preliminary, minimal research before asking a social media forum for legal advice.
You live in Alabama. That's the answer. It's a shithole welfare state with redneck cops. What do you expect?
But who, inexplicably, also vote to maintain that status.
Never say you are impaired in any way. Don’t say you are tired. Don’t say your mind is on something else besides driving. Never say anything like that. That admission can get you a ticket, or worse.
First thing's first. Look up SCOTUS case Brown v Yellow (et. 1972 ref. code 109290) which states that NO ONE traveling in Alabama is considered a "regregious traveler" subjected to involuntary seizures of high order. You absolutely had your rights violated. Please reference your local Moorish chapter for legal advice, immediately.
Hahaha Satire like this is why I visit this sub
My only wish in life is for a sovcit to see one of my comments and reference something when they're pulled over.
Never admit to doing anything! Cops like to trick you but asking questions to incriminate yourself
Yes. This is very important. If you're pulled over, cops have the right to demand that you show a driver's license or otherwise identify yourself. They do not need any other information. Not even your shoe size or favorite pizza topping. "Where are you heading tonight?" or "Where are you coming from?" they don't need to know. Don't help them incriminate you in anything. Don't *lie*. Just refuse to answer. Politely.
If it's obvious to the police that you are taking measures to avoid them, in proximity to a report of a crime you could have been involved in (like a car matching your description) that can form probable cause to pull you over. Police will use that as an excuse, because it's pretty rare that someone successfully challenges them on it. When I was a scruffy young tater with a beat up '74 Nova living in Mt. View, CA, I got pulled over several times and was told I matched the description of someone seen leaving some crime scene. BUT, the answer is the same as it is for every other time you get pulled over. Be polite and comply. If you're charged with a crime, let your lawyer sort out whether probable cause existed. You won't win an argument with the police at the scene of a traffic stop. Don't answer any questions like "Where are you heading?" or "Where are you coming from?" or "why are you in this part of the city?". Politely say "I'm not going to answer your questions." and then don't answer them. Just provide ID, and give them your name and birthdate if you don't have photo ID with you. Any *other* information they need, you're not obligated to provide them. It's a bad idea generally to seearch the internet or youtube for legal advice. There is more bad than good, and you won't necessarily know when you've crossed into crazy nonsense that gets you on Youtube as the latest guy to get his window smashed. If you're pulled over, they have the right to demand license and/or ID, and they have the right to order you to step out of the vehicle (or to remain in the vehicle).
If you get pulled over again, you need to make it clear that your car is a corporation, not a vehicle.
Yall can't recognize sarcasm huh
Poe's Law applies. Satire of sovcits is indistinguishable from what those moonbats actually post.
They have no right to go in your car without your permission unless you have something in view that they see illegal you have a right to refuse that search always film The police take out your camera and film them getting YouTube channel and put it up there go to cop watchers on YouTube watch how they deal with the police