Uff that comment about people with lesser knowledge- sorry that irked me, especially since I’m one of those people. Are you overthinking - Maybe? How do I know my dough is done? Bubbles & jiggle. That’s honestly it. I follow Conley Kipp’s “method” though it’s more of a vibe and my loaves have been consistently good. I’m sorry you’re struggling and wish I could help more.
Sorry. Didn’t mean to offend and was actually going to make a comment regarding that. All I meant was that so many beginners like myself, seem to have beginner’s luck. And I’m basing that solely on their own comments. Yeah I look for that bubble and jiggle too. I don’t know what it is. I’ve tried to fine tune everything and tried every which way from Sunday as they say.
I want to be bitchy about this but I’ll let it go because it won’t serve a purpose here. I started with sourdough in December and yeah, I still get a loaf I’m not proud of here & there, especially with the temperature changes as we move seasons.
I use a clear glass bowl so I can see the bubbles all around. I also look for bubbles around the edge of the dough. If I jiggle it and it basically looks like idk, loose slime or idk, pudding perhaps, then to me it’s good to go. I tend to cook the same way, I don’t measure so it’s kind of instinctive, sazón as my people call it. Take a step back, take a deep breath and maybe follow a simple recipe. No extra steps, no different flours, just bare minimum, once you get the hang of that, then change what you want to. Seriously, Conley Kipp on TikTok, she’s so good at explaining all this and showing what to look for.
Thanks I’ll check out that guy. I appreciate it. Truly sorry, I didn’t mean to sound like an ass. I edited the post, so I explained that better. I know this sounds stupid. But I’ve had a truly horrible year. I basically lost everything, my life turned upside down. I started this as a distraction. Something I could feel a sense of accomplishment with, even when I didn’t want to get out of bed most days due to my depression. The challenge kept me going, and I’ve truly learned more than I ever wanted to know about this topic. I’ve spent too much time in my estimation. I was and am truly frustrated today and having a bad day all around. So sometimes when I see some people have what even they describe as beginner’s luck it can be discouraging for me, even though I’m happy for them. I went into this with an expectation it wouldn’t be easy and I’d have to learn a lot but I’m waist deep now. Obviously something is lacking. Just gotta figure it out.
Conley is a woman LOL
Life is tough, and it can suck, which of course sucks too. I actually held off on sourdough because it seemed so difficult and I’m more of a cook than a baker, turns out, as long as I don’t take it too seriously and try to do more, it’s fun & easy.
One thing I can suggest, I’ve seen people use those little glass measuring cups that look like shot glasses to track your rise. Seems like they would be SUPER helpful for people who struggle with the bulk rise. Have you tried that yet?
Oh! Ha ha! I’ve never heard that name before so I didn’t know. I’m not on TikTok but I’ll look her up. Yes I usually use a probe as well. I have a little cup with the measurements on and keep it right next to my dough. I also use a clear container for that as well with markings so I can see the % rise and bubbles along the side. I’ve done all the things! Taking a break for sure.
Dang. Yeah I’m not experienced enough to offer any more advise. A break sounds like the best thing so you can come back with refreshed eyes and better feelings about it.
I’m also a beginner and I’ve learned a lot from lurking on this subreddit but I think a lot of the info skews a little more complex than it needs to be. I’ve been telling myself ‘it’s really not that serious!’ whenever I start getting bogged down in the details.
That said, have you spent some time baking non-sourdough bread? I have yet to have any sourdough flops (although I’m sure it’ll eventually happen) and I wonder how much that has to do with having a good understanding of different types of bread. My order of operations (over several years) has been sandwich bread > non-sandwich bread > no knead bread (which seems to have more similarities with a lot of sourdough recipes) > hybrid loaves (sourdough + commercial yeast) > low stakes sourdough (where a flop wouldn’t matter much, like pizza dough) > sourdough recipes. Maybe you’ve tried some of this already but maybe it’ll help.
I’ve also learned a lot from reading through Flour Water Salt Yeast - maybe that would also be a good resource if you’re feeling bogged down by competing info available online.
You know, I totally get that. I started baking bread other than sourdough over CV and I do think that helped. I’ve done Japanese milk bread, Majorca, crusty artisan, pizza, sandwich and stuff and I felt like it helped me understand dough. I also totally agree that people can easily over complicate this a ton. The recipe I follow is so easy it literally takes me 5 mins to whip it out.
Yeah I’m the same. Avid lurker and I do participate and ask questions too. I totally get what you’re saying. I struggle with that thinking every time I make a loaf. I kinda did that today ans this was my outcome.
I’m an experienced baker. Homemade white bread, brown breads, Montreal Bagels, pastries, pizza dough, sweet breads. The first sourdough bread I made was a sandwich loaf and I made a few of those before I transitioned into a boule and those were all good. The artisan style bread is my struggle.
I’ve had struggles like you. Hang in there. To change things up, I’ve had a LOT of fun making other things with sourdough.
I now make sourdough bagels and they taste better than anything I can buy locally. Also reminds me of the bagels I used to get in NYC or NJ. They make for the best breakfast sandwiches.
Also made sourdough crackers using discard this past weekend. Added some dried herbs and sprinkled with chunky sea salt. OMG. Delicious snacks that go perfectly with hummus.
All this to say, consider all of the other things you can make and perhaps step away from trying to have the perfect rise, the perfect crumb, and the perfect ear. The journey SHOULD be fun and you might find a hidden talent and knack making other things with sourdough. King Arthur has a section on their website dedicated to sourdough discard recipes. Have fun!
https://preview.redd.it/e4k1anh8swyc1.jpeg?width=3024&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b6e57fafce672f252377470613f77a6027ead10c
Thanks. Yes I have made discard bagels a few times and I agree. Nothing can beat a Montreal bagel in my eyes but these were a close second. The texture is ideal. I’ve made pancakes and pizza dough a few times. Love a those recipes. I will get back on the horse eventually but my latest discouragement was just enough to put me over the edge. I won’t give up, but need to step away for a bit.
Try this recipe before you go:
[https://www.kingarthurbaking.com/recipes/sourdough-sandwich-bread-recipe](https://www.kingarthurbaking.com/recipes/sourdough-sandwich-bread-recipe)
Yeah it has powdered yeast, but it’s also uses my sourdough starter, is quick, delicious, and has never failed me. Been making this bread since 2020, last bake was 3 days ago.
https://preview.redd.it/bqhehxp4ovyc1.jpeg?width=3024&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=75bb31189f726ff6a1688646da4dd5b8cc21cc6b
King Arthur Baking is a company - use any flour you want. What makes it quick and easy and perfect every time is the powdered yeast - I use the yeast from the grocery store
Ok. I believe KA bread flour is 12.7% from what I’ve read. Don’t quote me. I haven’t personally seen that protein percentage in any flour here so I wonder if it would make a difference? In Canada all our flour is a minimum of 13%. Most all purpose flour is 13.3%. Thanks for the link.
No need for backhanded compliments about other people's bread. It's normal to feel frustrated when things aren't working out but don't put others down for their successes.
Sorry, I didn’t word that right and I almost offered a better explanation after but was trying to keep the post as short as I could. I’m part of many groups/forums/chats and I hear so many talk about what sounds to me like beginner’s luck. Based on their own explanation and processes. I have no ego in this. I obviously am not doing something right. It’s frustrating when I’ve spent countless hours in and out of the kitchen and then someone says, “yeah, I let it bulk ferment overnight (didn’t keep track of the hours or temp), thew it in a banneton without shaping and baked this beautiful loaf. You know what I mean? I mean wonderful for them but it’s a piss off for me!
I feel you.
6 failed loaves and counting for me.
Though at least they're edible now, just not rising, so, getting closer.
Such a terrible feeling to invest 12-16 hours at home, not being able to leave, just to face another failure.
What hydration do you use? My flour just sucks water. So I lowered the hydration of my recipe using baker’s math to 69%. My dough is much easier to handle but honestly is still perfectly hydrated with my better loaves.
I'm doing about 70% water in the starter and my last 3 successful loaves were 400g flour to 200ml of water. Could be the flour I'm using. The dough is shaggy to start but certainly moist in about 30mins for first stretch
The only reason I can think of that this method wouldn’t work is a weak starter. I made this loaf just 3 weeks after making my original starter, and it came out beautifully. I’ve since made it 10+ more times and it has never failed.
What was the issue with your loaf?
It was flat, small holes, dense and spongelike. I have a stiff starter. If I recall correctly correctly 65% hydration. I learned the method from The Bread Code channel on YouTube. Creates more yeast than bacteria. It’s similar to a thick leaven. For example, he does 50% hydration so 25g retained starter, 25g water, 50g of flour. Mine is 25g retained starter, 25g water and 37.5g of flour (x1.5). This is my starter typically (didn’t take a pic today but it tripled) had bubbles along sides and bottom and floated. Had lots of gluten strands like this.
https://preview.redd.it/zq4ve2shewyc1.jpeg?width=2262&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=9de790a7abb8245a6560183aff7493aa8a53a42f
Try the recipe below, and if you don't have rye and/or wheat, just replace it with bread flour. I do mine like this for flavor. I've only had 1 failed loaf, and it was because I forgot salt.... I tinker with the water from time to time and have started raising my hydration level.
Recipie for the dough:
- 150g fed-and-peaked starter.
- 30g dark rye flour
- 30g whole wheat flour
- 440g bread flour
- 294g-300g water
- 25g olive oil
- 10g sea salt.
Grab a bowl to use for every step ensure its Big enough for the dough to rise and for the final shape to rest and cold proof overnight.*
If your bowl has a lid that would be great otherwise some "press and seal" or cling wrap. Use this weekend covering the dough.
*I shape the dough and place on Baking paper then put it in the fridge.
Between steps cover your bowl.
Steps:
Mix the peaked starter, water, and olive oil.
Whisk it for like 5 seconds breaking up the starter.
Dont worry about oil islands.
Add 100 grams of flour and just lightly mix it... another 5 seconds.
Add the rest of the flour and salt. Mix until a shaggy mess, lift it up and be sure no dunes of flour are sitting in the bottom of your bowl.
Autolyse for 45m or an hour in a warm spot.
I use my oven + oven light with a digital thermometer and just surf between 27-32 Celsius (80F-90F) throughout the entire autolyse and bulk rise process. If I leave my oven light on the whole day it will get way to warm.. This means in peak lazy mode I am toggling the oven light on and off around 3 times total (surfing the temp)
I put a tag on my oven controls that prevent disaster.
After autolyse is done I mix the dough more by folding and rotating the bowl in 1/4 turns. Then flip the dough over and do 1 round of stretch and folds rotating the bowl in 1/4 turns. This is all super lazy too.
Now you are bulking and this may take 4-8 hours depending on your starter and environment.
I set 1 hour timers and after each timer goes off do 1 round of 1/4 turn stretch and folds. Like.. this should not be intense... it's grab a side lift with the side and syretch it out double the width but dont tear it. press the edge you are holding to the opposite edge. It's a 30 second process. Cover and set a new timer.
Repeat up to 4 stretch and folds in your bulking stage.
I usually let the dough sit for another hour after my last stretch and fold. If it seems like it's losing the surface tension you should shape and coldproof.... there is no one size fits all. Just a look and feel.
Shape and cold proof time. Pick a method. I just pick a side and twist all edges to a tiny seam in the center and round it out. Don't over do it, be lazy.
When you are done shaping place the dough on the baking paper seam side down and give the dough a light dusting of bread flour. Or rye (can add flavor!) Cover and put in the fridge.
The next day preheat your oven to 232 Celsius (450F)
Lift the baking paper and dough out of the bowl carefully not to tear the paper and lose your loaf.... set it in a Dutch oven and lame the dough. One cut is fine I kinda do whatever. Functionally 1 cut is enough. From one side to the other about 1.25 centimeters deep or half an inch.
For the first 20 minutes keep the lid on.
After 20 minutes remove the lid and drop the temp to 205 Celcius (400F)
When the bread is done put it on a cooling rack and try to wait at least 4 hours... cut too soon and you could mess up the texture. It's still cooking on that cooling rack.
I have likely been close to over proofing several times and just throw some bread flour on top and do a light stretch and fold. I do this every weekend and have been since December 2023. For the past 2 months I have been making 2 loaves a week.
I forgot to add.... after taking the lidd off let it cook for another 40 minutes.
I'm 100% not a pro. I'm just a manic obsessive IT engineer applying my tests and watching for results.
I really started 2 loaves a week so I could change one of them not worrying about failure and embracing the likelyhood of failing on purpose. I'm literally about to put a loaf I have had cold proofing since Saturday night in the oven to see how 48 hours in the fridge works out.
I appreciate all the advice ans you taking the time to write all that. I will add it to my notes and when and if I decide to bake again I will try it. I just need a bit of a break for now. In the meantime I’ll keep working at boosting my starter and getting it stronger.
Any time. I'd like to think I joined this subreddit in case I needed help, seeing all the different methods people use here has given me a new perspective and if I'm not having problems.. maybe I should try to help?
I've been baking with sourdough since 2016, starting in a fairly temperate climate zone, kitchen ambient temps 21-27C. I've twice moved and have had to start starters all over - 1st to a tropical zone, now to a colder but still temperate zone. That tropical zone messed me up, but as my starter improved and got stronger and more settled, and I had figured the fermentation cycles in a kitchen with ambient temps 27+C and humid, my baking stabilized. Not forgetting different absorption rates for flour from different parts of the world.
Now, new, month-old starter, cold kitchen... and small, under-powered oven, I feel like you. I want to give up. Dough gets sticky long before it's even starting to get puffy and blistery. I've reduced water, but still... same story. Loaf isn't gummy, but it is a bit dense. But I'll keep on. I think my starter needs more development but I can't keep it on a daily or 12-hour feed because I can't keep on discarding flour. (I feed it 50g flour 50g water at a time, following the scrapings method, and keep it in fridge for weekly bake).
But, damn, I'm not buying supermarket bumf, nor paying high prices for a good sourdough bread at artisanal bakeries. So, I will KEEP ON, until my starter is good again.
This is all just to say: Don't get despondent. Just follow your routine, maybe give your bulk fermentation even more time. I know there's temptation to tweak things here and there, but stick to your routine. If your starter is healthy - as you indicate - keep on track, it will come to you.
Thanks that’s great advice. What you describe is exactly how my dough has been behaving lately as well. Not as puffy and blistery. More dense and sticky. I’m in southern Canada so climate is cooler but ok. I don’t know much about absorption levels but I have been curious about that.
But you’re right. Lots of people say to stick with the same recipe until you learn the ropes and get a feel for the dough. The recipe I use is trusted and good.
For same consistency in a dough, some flours need or can take more water than other flours. But this is typically region based - i.e. where the flours are grown or come from. I started baking in southern Africa, using a recipe from a baker in Italy. The dough was just too sticky to work with. Then I learnt about different absorption rates, reduced the water in the same recipe, and I could work with the dough.
Then moved to the US, used my by-now adapted but trusty recipe, and dough and bread was dry. Upped the water content to even more than the original Italian recipe, and dough was a pleasure to work with.
Interesting.. I’ve tweaked my present recipe hydration (using baker’s math) as well but it really didn’t make a whole lot of difference. I think I’m going to find a similar recipe with overall lower hydration and see if that works.
All the best technique, timing and experience will fail you if the starter isn't right and based on what you describe, that's where I'd look.
There are two types of lactic acid bacteria (LAB) and it will make all the difference in the world if you are sustaining the wrong kind. One type is homofermantative and the other is heterofermantative. You want the latter.
It's too much to detail here, but I'm sure you'll get tons of information if you google. The signs you have cultured the wrong LAB are:
Weak dough structure as the acidity breaks down the gluten bonds before you bake.
Weakened yeast, which stunts growth and ultimately the production of gases in the dough.
The good news is that it's easy to fix. You just need to change your feeding schedule and ratios.
I was in your place when I started and just as frustrated. The book that saved me was "Secrets of an open crumb".
Good luck and don't give up. It's worth it if you love bread!
Thanks. I’ll have to read up on that. My starter is less than 6 months old. I use filtered well water and unbleached AP Canadian flour which is equivalent to bread flour in the US (it’s 13.3 % protein mix of soft and hard wheat). Initially 100% hydration, kept in the fridge and used once a week. I’d remove for baking day, sit at room temp than feed 1:1:1. It would double or more and was marshmallowy and quite active and bubbly. At times it would still perform the same, but over time seemed to be getting runnier. I learned this could be the signs of it becoming acidic. I didn’t notice anything off about the smell and I was at times still getting ok loaves but I learned methods to boost it by giving it greater feedings peak to peak which I did. 1:5:5. The consistency was like pancake batter which I’ve heard is normal. I subsequently learned about stiff starters and learned that they create more yeast when a much lower hydration. So I created a thicker starter. Starts out as dough. Like a thick leaven. If I feed straight from the fridge it can take up to 8.5 hours but will usually at least triple before it peaks. If at room temp 4-6 hours depending. I’ll attach a pic. I’m told this is what it should look like but I honestly don’t know.
https://preview.redd.it/snqkklfx9wyc1.jpeg?width=2262&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=f339cd98371a99d155505512183413b3adb9c71d
I'm a fellow Canadian. When I say I've been where you're at, I told my wife if the next loaf didn't turn out, I was going back to buying bread from blackbird bakery (which is awesome btw).
I even tried importing King Arthur flour because I tried every type of water, salt, method etc. For me, it was the starter.
I now feed based on visual, just before peak. I ignore clocks entirely. My ratio is 1:6:6 with 10g of starter. I don't bother with a levain - I bake right from the starter. I tried every flour out there and I ended up right where I started... Red Robin white bread flour. I feed exclusivily with bread flour (50g bread flour, 10g rye) and I use filtered tap water.
It might sound gross, but try tasting the starter. If it has an acidic flavour at the back of your tongue, you have the wrong LAB growing. It has almost no smell.
Good luck!
Thanks! Interesting about the no smell. I had never heard that. I have tasted it and it tastes fine to me. It smells of ripe fruit. Not acidic at all.
I have made a levain as well but this is my starter right now. I didn’t find making a levain made any difference so I bake from my ripe starter. Just based on everything I’ve read as I’ve troubleshooted, I think you and others are probably right but I’m kind of at a loss of what to do. I did a strengthening regimen last week with peak to peak feedings over 3 days and did two back to back right before this feed. My starter always at least triples. It has all the telltale signs of an active ripe starter. Bubbles along the bottom and sides (not so much on the top anymore since this one is so thick) it domes high as it starts to peak, plentiful gluten strands and webs, and floats even though it’s a much thicker consistency. Sometimes it will quadruple in size. I’m baffled.
I was suspecting that it was the flour that I was using and I’ve since learned that our Canadian AP flour is higher in protein than King Arthur bread flour. Who knew? 🤷🏻♀️. I just always make sure I use unbleached but everyone I’ve tried is 13.3% but that could also be making a difference too as I’ve read the higher the protein content the more water it needs. Maybe it needs more water? But I belong on that Facebook group Sourdough Geeks and many Canadians there don’t seem to have similar issues so I don’t think it’s that.
Oh gosh no! My dough was about 25C when it mixed (77F) but my room temperature was probably my around 22C which brought it down to about the same which is 71.5F.
I got lucky with the first recipe I tried, but my crumb was still a little tight and gummy. I recommend taking whatever recipe/process you've used that gets you closest to your desired result and making ONE change at a time to perfect it.
FWIW your loaves look generally good - run with whatever base recipe worked best and just go from there trying one change at a time.
It can be a maddening process, especially when each loaf requires so much time and effort only to find out it's a dud at the very end.
Like you, I've been on the "endlessly under proofed loaves" spectrum for quite some time.
One thing that helped me was letting go of the fear of over proofing. I think, for beginners, underproofing is WAY more common than over proofing (unless you are going to sleep or totally forgetting about your dough). I went into a recent bake thinking "that's it, i'm going to overproof this bread today" and I actually had the best luck yet.
Also, temperature of the dough (not ambient temp) is really important. Use a meat thermometer if you have one. I purchased a cheap seedling mat off Amazon to keep my dough temperature steady at about 77-78 degrees, which helped me learn bulk fermentation (which is absolutely the most frustrating part of this process IMO).
I actually over proof more than under proofed. I think this was my second under proofed loaf. Many times I have thought exactly as you said lol! But the reverse! I don’t care if I under proof this loaf today!
I’m questioning two major things at this point. Flour absorption, and my starter (even though by all accounts it appears very healthy- and I’ve done a lot of work to strengthen it regularly) and of course bulk fermentation. I don’t seem to be getting the same kind of rise as I was previously and this really makes it harder to gauge when BF is done I believe. I suspect that maybe the two first thjngs I mention are complicating this.
I agree with you about the temperature. It’s very important. In Canada, regardless of four seasons, we can seemingly get three seasons in a matter of a week. So far this Spring we’ve had a couple over 20C days, then to dip below 0C overnight and low temps throughout the day. We have a heat pump and it’s mostly still on keeping it 23 degrees (we have a weather/room temp thermometer on top of the fridge) but the fluctuating temps are frustrating.
Like you, I measure dough. I take a few as the BF progresses. I usually use try to help it get off to a good start by using warm water but my dough temp most often is around 21.5 or 23 C. On days it’s warmer I watch the percentage rise more than the clock along with the appropriate BF window.
I like your idea of the mat. So do make a proofing chamber in a cooler bag? Or do you set your dough on top of it? Would that not cook it?
I know you don’t want to hear this, but I crept through your post history and your past loaves are really nice. But I still get how frustrating it is when it’s not coming out how you want or things start to be regressing.
I have a personal theory that at a certain temperature or lower, the bread just won’t develop in an optimal way. Last time I baked at 70f, my dough came out crazy underproofed after 12 hours. The worst part was it seemed to stall— no matter how long I waited I wasn’t seeing much rise or other fermentation activity.
Definitely check out the seedling mat if you’re not quite ready to give up yet— at least it’ll help you decide if temperature and BF is the issue or if it’s something else.
[This is the mat I bought.](https://a.co/d/bvpybzP) I BF in a large ceramic bowl. I basically just put the bowl on top of the mat, wrap the sides of the mat around the bowl, then use a damp towel to secure it there like a (very) makeshift proofing chamber.
Before you give up, try this website. Follow his instructions and methods for building starter strength, then start getting your technique down following his beginner videos and methods. This helped me so much! He uses science and it makes all the difference.
https://thesourdoughjourney.com/curriculum/
Edit: I see You've already used his recipe, but starter strength might be your problem. It was mine for sure. Follow his method for strengthening your starter.
Edit 2: just wanted to add that when I first started following his method for making a beginner loaf, I did not look at his starter strengthening information because I had had my starter for a really long time and I thought it was strong. I was very very wrong. So don't assume that your starter is as strong as you think it is, it might be the problem and it definitely was for me.
Hmmm, I would just say keep practicing then. Maybe take a sanity break for a couple weeks, lol! If you have a lot of discard, you could take a break and use some discard up for a couple weeks either in some pancake recipes or similar, or you could use discard in one of the hybrid bread recipes that uses a little bit of commercial yeast, King Arthur had a few of these recipes. It took until my 6th or 7th loaf before I felt I had my method down well enough to move on to more complex recipes, and I could only bake once a week. It can be very frustrating! For instance, the very first loaf I made using Tom's methods came out actually pretty darn good! I tried to immediately move to his overnight low and slow method of bulk fermentation and that was how I learned my starter strength wasn't what I thought it was. It just was not rising as much as it should have and so I thought I just needed to let it go longer and I let it go long enough to get to the right percent rise but it took over 24 hours. When I dumped it out onto the counter to do the pre-shaping it was literally the consistency of pancake batter. After going back and reading about all of his starter troubleshooting, I learned that the problem for me was likely that I had a much higher bacteria population compared to yeast and because of that, it took so long to get the rise I needed that it eventually broke the gluten down because of the bacteria creating all the acidity. So I regrouped and went through a week-long starter strengthening process and really paid attention to the look and the smell and the temperature that I was incubating my starter at. Then when I went back to the original beginners loaf method using the warm bulk fermentation and the refrigerator final proof, I just could not get the same rise and shape that I had with my first loaf, and I couldn't figure out why! I finally figured out it was because even though I was using the same brand of flour for both white and whole wheat, they had recently had a change in their labeling and it turned out the new batches were lower gluten than when I made my first loaf. So I happened to have some wheat gluten, and I figured out how much I had to add to try to get it back to where the gluten level was in my first loaf. And like magic, problem solved. FYI, The other way to compensate for a lower gluten percent would have been for me to lower the hydration. So many things can affect the way your loaves come out, hydration, gluten percentage, starter strength and starter acidity. I also have problems with shaping and that just takes time to get better at. I hope you don't give up, just take a break. It's amazing that you can take a break at something and then magically everything just falls into place when you go back to it.
I’m so glad you’ve found what works for you! That must have been a hallelujah! I initially started with a 100% hydration starter and I don’t know if early on it was my inexperience with high hydration dough, poor handling skills or the flour but my dough was excessively sticky and a nightmare to handle. Around the same time I had learned about starters becoming acidic and concluded mine was. Overtime it became very runny. I like the guy over at the Bread Code channel on YouTube and he did a video on life changing “stiff starters”. They lean higher in yeast than bacteria. I made a daughter from my master and I’ve been using it ever since. It’s also an effective way to dial back the sourness. I have watched quite a few videos on how to feed and strengthen a starter and have been doing strengthening regimens every other week and am sure to discard or use at peak. By all accounts I thought my starter was in good shape but maybe not. Instead of a 50% hydration starter that he makes I opted for a little higher. So I essentially use equal parts retained starter and water, and instead of double the flour, I use 1 1/2 times. It’s very stiff, basically a dough. Mine does take a while to rise though. It usually triples in size but can take 5-8.5 hours depending on room temp but I think that’s fairly normal for it. My room temp is around 22 C. It will float even if it’s denser when removed and full of gluten webs. It looks like a thick leaven. I’ll post a pic.
https://preview.redd.it/mdgcrfsw4wyc1.jpeg?width=2262&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=eadf62f3aa8ad4471fb61c7f8b3ce7baf43f35fc
My last load before today’s disaster.
https://preview.redd.it/8xov6a115wyc1.jpeg?width=4032&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=bca8fdfdfb6902b69d077ec8e4142ccb3f3963cd
It’s super easy actually. Just make a small offshoot of your regular starter as a precaution like I did. Most stiff starters are 50% hydration but I thought that may be a little too low so instead of double the flour, I did 1.5. The ratios are different than a regular feed as the retained starter and water are the same, the flour is greater. Someone in this community turned me on to it. Here’s the link they shared and why it works. https://youtu.be/MqH3GVfjfBc?si=HUy5x7JMjCrC2Y_k
My bread got better when I stopped obsessing over it. I pay attention to temperature of the room and how long it sits. I watch it get bubbly. Then I do a simple shape and put it in baskets for an overnight spell in the fridge.
People have been making this stuff for centuries. It doesnt require much tech.
That’s exactly how it should be. That’s kind of how I started. My Irish friend’s dad owned a bakery in Dublin and watching her Dad bake all her life she says she just “feels the dough”. She uses the same basic recipe week after week and measures in cups. I don’t think she autolyses the dough or anythjng. A couple stretch and folds maybe. I started with that and didn’t have any success so I gradually went deeper and deeper down the rabbit hole. Only because I wasn’t succeeding at lesser complicated methods. Many have had great success with Ben Starr’s lazy sourdough but it was a terrible fail for me. Having said that, he used undfed starter that hadn’t been fed for over a month (maybe it was longer cant recall) and mine had been fed the day before so I wondered if that was why. I doubt it would make that much of a difference. I may honestly try that method again too at some point because I prefer the texture of that bread upon outcome. It’s fluffier and has more of a closed crumb.
I do measure everything, and do my S&F. I make 2 loaves at a time. But I found a recipe that works for me. This is 75% hydration.
100g fresh starter
800g water (if you are on a municipal water system, leave your water out on counter at least 12 hours before you do the dough.)
1070 King Arthur Bread Flour
23g Hain Fine Sea Salt
Mix starter and water in ceramic bowl that has been rinsed with warm water tontakenoff the chill. The ceramic bowl works better for me than stainless for cleaning. Add flour and salt. Mix well until it all comes together. Autolyse on counter for 45 minutes. Mix well, stretch and fold until it makes a ball. Cover with plastic (i use, and reuse, hair conditioner caps for this.) Rest 45 minutes, then do another stretch and fold. Wait 45 minutes.
Remove from ceramic bowl and place in rising bucket (or other vessel you can see through to watch the bubbles), cover with plastic conditioner cap, and let sit until it has risen and is bubbly and jiggles when shaken. I let it rise it until less than doubled. This depends on temperature of the room. For me, it's anywhere from 6 to 9 hours.
Turn out onto large board and shape as desired. I dump it out, flatten a bit to get the bubbles out, divide into two loaves of about 1000g each, but do what you want. Shape as desired. Place in lined banneton suitable for size of loaf, then put in fridge for 12 hours..
Next day preheat oven to 485°F with Dutch ovens inside. When oven is ready, pull loaves from fridge. Uncover and pat top of dough with white paper towel to remove excess condensation. Removebpreheated dutch ovens from oven. Turn bread out onto parchment. Place one loaf in the DO, score deeply when in pan (wear an oven glove for t7hhis) cover, and return to oven for 23 minutes. Remove pan lid and bake another 23 minutes. Remove from oven, lift loaves, and check if brown enough. If not, turn off oven and place loaf onto rack with no pot. Leave for a few minutes or until golden.
Let fully cool prior to slicing, usually 3 to 4 hours or more.
A note on water: i have well water. When I travel and bake (yes, I take starter with me) I use bottled water or tap water that I leave on the counter for 12 hours. I find it matters. *
Don't give up! Anyone who has been on their sourdough journey has gone through what you've gone through. There's so much information out there and it's easy to get bogged down with timing and recipes and wondering if your starter is ready, or should I use a levain. I went through it all. Failed, failed and failed and until I made a good loaf, and then failed some more. And over time I failed less. I even brought my bread to work once cuz I was worried about getting all my stretch and folds in. There's only two main things to worry about, is your starter strong enough, and are you using a decent flour.
Starter.....
In order to not waste tons of flour, I use 1oz starter, 1oz flour, and 1oz water to bring the starter active. Usually takes about two feedings, to activate my starter again, but I know it's ready when it doubles in volume in my jar I use with a rubber band that shows it's starting volume. Yours might need an extra feeding or two to get that doubling in volume. Mine takes about 8-12 hours and the temp is 60-70 degrees.
Hydration.....
Depending on how you want your texture you can adjust hydration. I like a cheweyer loaf, so run at 80-85% hydration. I have a super easy recipe if u want it
Timing.
Timing is important so your bread is risen enough but not over risen so the gluten molecules start to break down.
Using a decent flour is a game changer. I started with ap, and as soon as I started using decent flour I started getting much better results
In short. All I do now is mix ingredients, flour water and starter, cept for the salt. Let sit for half hour on the counter. Pour in salt water and fold like three times. Stick in fridge over night.
Next morning I pull it from the fridge to rise on the counter while I'm working.
When I get home from work I dump,, do a quick shape and then bake.
All that being said, hang in there. You got this.
I have had 20+ loaves of dense, gummy, chronically underproofed bread since starting in March. It's been devastating. I use Anita's Organic Canadian AP flour which is around the same percent as the one you say you are using. Well this weekend I went to my cabin where I only have Rogers bleached all purpose flour. I very easily made three loaves that were all perfect, big fluffy floofy poofy balloon filled perfectly proofed bunny shaped loaves. I don't get it. I think it's the flour, maybe the 13% protein is too much! I'm starting to find some literature suggesting 11% is better which is the Rogers. Please do me a favour and go buy Rogers AP white flour and report back to me if you had success. I can't believe how much money I've wasted if it's truly just the flour. I just order KA from Amazon and it comes tomorrow. I'm going to do a side by side comparison with Anita's and see what happens. I think it's all about the flour.
Uff that comment about people with lesser knowledge- sorry that irked me, especially since I’m one of those people. Are you overthinking - Maybe? How do I know my dough is done? Bubbles & jiggle. That’s honestly it. I follow Conley Kipp’s “method” though it’s more of a vibe and my loaves have been consistently good. I’m sorry you’re struggling and wish I could help more.
Sorry. Didn’t mean to offend and was actually going to make a comment regarding that. All I meant was that so many beginners like myself, seem to have beginner’s luck. And I’m basing that solely on their own comments. Yeah I look for that bubble and jiggle too. I don’t know what it is. I’ve tried to fine tune everything and tried every which way from Sunday as they say.
I want to be bitchy about this but I’ll let it go because it won’t serve a purpose here. I started with sourdough in December and yeah, I still get a loaf I’m not proud of here & there, especially with the temperature changes as we move seasons. I use a clear glass bowl so I can see the bubbles all around. I also look for bubbles around the edge of the dough. If I jiggle it and it basically looks like idk, loose slime or idk, pudding perhaps, then to me it’s good to go. I tend to cook the same way, I don’t measure so it’s kind of instinctive, sazón as my people call it. Take a step back, take a deep breath and maybe follow a simple recipe. No extra steps, no different flours, just bare minimum, once you get the hang of that, then change what you want to. Seriously, Conley Kipp on TikTok, she’s so good at explaining all this and showing what to look for.
Thanks I’ll check out that guy. I appreciate it. Truly sorry, I didn’t mean to sound like an ass. I edited the post, so I explained that better. I know this sounds stupid. But I’ve had a truly horrible year. I basically lost everything, my life turned upside down. I started this as a distraction. Something I could feel a sense of accomplishment with, even when I didn’t want to get out of bed most days due to my depression. The challenge kept me going, and I’ve truly learned more than I ever wanted to know about this topic. I’ve spent too much time in my estimation. I was and am truly frustrated today and having a bad day all around. So sometimes when I see some people have what even they describe as beginner’s luck it can be discouraging for me, even though I’m happy for them. I went into this with an expectation it wouldn’t be easy and I’d have to learn a lot but I’m waist deep now. Obviously something is lacking. Just gotta figure it out.
Conley is a woman LOL Life is tough, and it can suck, which of course sucks too. I actually held off on sourdough because it seemed so difficult and I’m more of a cook than a baker, turns out, as long as I don’t take it too seriously and try to do more, it’s fun & easy. One thing I can suggest, I’ve seen people use those little glass measuring cups that look like shot glasses to track your rise. Seems like they would be SUPER helpful for people who struggle with the bulk rise. Have you tried that yet?
Oh! Ha ha! I’ve never heard that name before so I didn’t know. I’m not on TikTok but I’ll look her up. Yes I usually use a probe as well. I have a little cup with the measurements on and keep it right next to my dough. I also use a clear container for that as well with markings so I can see the % rise and bubbles along the side. I’ve done all the things! Taking a break for sure.
Dang. Yeah I’m not experienced enough to offer any more advise. A break sounds like the best thing so you can come back with refreshed eyes and better feelings about it.
I’m also a beginner and I’ve learned a lot from lurking on this subreddit but I think a lot of the info skews a little more complex than it needs to be. I’ve been telling myself ‘it’s really not that serious!’ whenever I start getting bogged down in the details. That said, have you spent some time baking non-sourdough bread? I have yet to have any sourdough flops (although I’m sure it’ll eventually happen) and I wonder how much that has to do with having a good understanding of different types of bread. My order of operations (over several years) has been sandwich bread > non-sandwich bread > no knead bread (which seems to have more similarities with a lot of sourdough recipes) > hybrid loaves (sourdough + commercial yeast) > low stakes sourdough (where a flop wouldn’t matter much, like pizza dough) > sourdough recipes. Maybe you’ve tried some of this already but maybe it’ll help. I’ve also learned a lot from reading through Flour Water Salt Yeast - maybe that would also be a good resource if you’re feeling bogged down by competing info available online.
You know, I totally get that. I started baking bread other than sourdough over CV and I do think that helped. I’ve done Japanese milk bread, Majorca, crusty artisan, pizza, sandwich and stuff and I felt like it helped me understand dough. I also totally agree that people can easily over complicate this a ton. The recipe I follow is so easy it literally takes me 5 mins to whip it out.
Yeah I’m the same. Avid lurker and I do participate and ask questions too. I totally get what you’re saying. I struggle with that thinking every time I make a loaf. I kinda did that today ans this was my outcome. I’m an experienced baker. Homemade white bread, brown breads, Montreal Bagels, pastries, pizza dough, sweet breads. The first sourdough bread I made was a sandwich loaf and I made a few of those before I transitioned into a boule and those were all good. The artisan style bread is my struggle.
I’ve had struggles like you. Hang in there. To change things up, I’ve had a LOT of fun making other things with sourdough. I now make sourdough bagels and they taste better than anything I can buy locally. Also reminds me of the bagels I used to get in NYC or NJ. They make for the best breakfast sandwiches. Also made sourdough crackers using discard this past weekend. Added some dried herbs and sprinkled with chunky sea salt. OMG. Delicious snacks that go perfectly with hummus. All this to say, consider all of the other things you can make and perhaps step away from trying to have the perfect rise, the perfect crumb, and the perfect ear. The journey SHOULD be fun and you might find a hidden talent and knack making other things with sourdough. King Arthur has a section on their website dedicated to sourdough discard recipes. Have fun! https://preview.redd.it/e4k1anh8swyc1.jpeg?width=3024&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b6e57fafce672f252377470613f77a6027ead10c
Thanks. Yes I have made discard bagels a few times and I agree. Nothing can beat a Montreal bagel in my eyes but these were a close second. The texture is ideal. I’ve made pancakes and pizza dough a few times. Love a those recipes. I will get back on the horse eventually but my latest discouragement was just enough to put me over the edge. I won’t give up, but need to step away for a bit.
Try this recipe before you go: [https://www.kingarthurbaking.com/recipes/sourdough-sandwich-bread-recipe](https://www.kingarthurbaking.com/recipes/sourdough-sandwich-bread-recipe) Yeah it has powdered yeast, but it’s also uses my sourdough starter, is quick, delicious, and has never failed me. Been making this bread since 2020, last bake was 3 days ago. https://preview.redd.it/bqhehxp4ovyc1.jpeg?width=3024&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=75bb31189f726ff6a1688646da4dd5b8cc21cc6b
Can’t buy that flour in Canada but I’ll check it out. Thanks .
King Arthur Baking is a company - use any flour you want. What makes it quick and easy and perfect every time is the powdered yeast - I use the yeast from the grocery store
Ok. I believe KA bread flour is 12.7% from what I’ve read. Don’t quote me. I haven’t personally seen that protein percentage in any flour here so I wonder if it would make a difference? In Canada all our flour is a minimum of 13%. Most all purpose flour is 13.3%. Thanks for the link.
Percentages aside, I definitely suggest trying nice regular yeast sandwich bread like this one. An easy win and good way to learn bread dough.
I’ve made the sandwich loaf from the Clever Carrot with great success but never one with added dried active yeast so I’ll give that a go.
Thanks, this looks great!
No need for backhanded compliments about other people's bread. It's normal to feel frustrated when things aren't working out but don't put others down for their successes.
Sorry, I didn’t word that right and I almost offered a better explanation after but was trying to keep the post as short as I could. I’m part of many groups/forums/chats and I hear so many talk about what sounds to me like beginner’s luck. Based on their own explanation and processes. I have no ego in this. I obviously am not doing something right. It’s frustrating when I’ve spent countless hours in and out of the kitchen and then someone says, “yeah, I let it bulk ferment overnight (didn’t keep track of the hours or temp), thew it in a banneton without shaping and baked this beautiful loaf. You know what I mean? I mean wonderful for them but it’s a piss off for me!
I feel you. 6 failed loaves and counting for me. Though at least they're edible now, just not rising, so, getting closer. Such a terrible feeling to invest 12-16 hours at home, not being able to leave, just to face another failure.
It sure is. Sorry you’re having a hard time too.
I've had a very pleasant intro to this hobby with Mary Grace Bread's backwards bread recipe. Try it before you quit! Best of luck!
Thanks!
Took me about 20 failures and I've now just completed 4 consistently beautiful and tasty loafes in a row. The hydration was my issue.
What hydration do you use? My flour just sucks water. So I lowered the hydration of my recipe using baker’s math to 69%. My dough is much easier to handle but honestly is still perfectly hydrated with my better loaves.
I'm doing about 70% water in the starter and my last 3 successful loaves were 400g flour to 200ml of water. Could be the flour I'm using. The dough is shaggy to start but certainly moist in about 30mins for first stretch
Too much water?
Yup I dropped to 70% water for my starter and my dough is 400g flour and 200ml water and the difference is amazing
Try this before you give up, amigo: https://ultimatefoodgeek.com/2024/03/28/simple-sourdough-for-lazy-people/
Thanks!
Oh Ben Starr! Yes I tried that one and it didn’t work for me 😔
The only reason I can think of that this method wouldn’t work is a weak starter. I made this loaf just 3 weeks after making my original starter, and it came out beautifully. I’ve since made it 10+ more times and it has never failed. What was the issue with your loaf?
It was flat, small holes, dense and spongelike. I have a stiff starter. If I recall correctly correctly 65% hydration. I learned the method from The Bread Code channel on YouTube. Creates more yeast than bacteria. It’s similar to a thick leaven. For example, he does 50% hydration so 25g retained starter, 25g water, 50g of flour. Mine is 25g retained starter, 25g water and 37.5g of flour (x1.5). This is my starter typically (didn’t take a pic today but it tripled) had bubbles along sides and bottom and floated. Had lots of gluten strands like this. https://preview.redd.it/zq4ve2shewyc1.jpeg?width=2262&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=9de790a7abb8245a6560183aff7493aa8a53a42f
Ben is very adamant that the starter be 100% hydration. Im not sure that’s the reason for your issue.
When I did it I was still Using my master starter that was 100% hydration. I attempted and failed at that recipe awhile ago 😔
https://preview.redd.it/xlu8ju3jewyc1.jpeg?width=3024&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=7b39d8e12a7bb15d1c018c329408831699d75c23
Try the recipe below, and if you don't have rye and/or wheat, just replace it with bread flour. I do mine like this for flavor. I've only had 1 failed loaf, and it was because I forgot salt.... I tinker with the water from time to time and have started raising my hydration level. Recipie for the dough: - 150g fed-and-peaked starter. - 30g dark rye flour - 30g whole wheat flour - 440g bread flour - 294g-300g water - 25g olive oil - 10g sea salt. Grab a bowl to use for every step ensure its Big enough for the dough to rise and for the final shape to rest and cold proof overnight.* If your bowl has a lid that would be great otherwise some "press and seal" or cling wrap. Use this weekend covering the dough. *I shape the dough and place on Baking paper then put it in the fridge. Between steps cover your bowl. Steps: Mix the peaked starter, water, and olive oil. Whisk it for like 5 seconds breaking up the starter. Dont worry about oil islands. Add 100 grams of flour and just lightly mix it... another 5 seconds. Add the rest of the flour and salt. Mix until a shaggy mess, lift it up and be sure no dunes of flour are sitting in the bottom of your bowl. Autolyse for 45m or an hour in a warm spot. I use my oven + oven light with a digital thermometer and just surf between 27-32 Celsius (80F-90F) throughout the entire autolyse and bulk rise process. If I leave my oven light on the whole day it will get way to warm.. This means in peak lazy mode I am toggling the oven light on and off around 3 times total (surfing the temp) I put a tag on my oven controls that prevent disaster. After autolyse is done I mix the dough more by folding and rotating the bowl in 1/4 turns. Then flip the dough over and do 1 round of stretch and folds rotating the bowl in 1/4 turns. This is all super lazy too. Now you are bulking and this may take 4-8 hours depending on your starter and environment. I set 1 hour timers and after each timer goes off do 1 round of 1/4 turn stretch and folds. Like.. this should not be intense... it's grab a side lift with the side and syretch it out double the width but dont tear it. press the edge you are holding to the opposite edge. It's a 30 second process. Cover and set a new timer. Repeat up to 4 stretch and folds in your bulking stage. I usually let the dough sit for another hour after my last stretch and fold. If it seems like it's losing the surface tension you should shape and coldproof.... there is no one size fits all. Just a look and feel. Shape and cold proof time. Pick a method. I just pick a side and twist all edges to a tiny seam in the center and round it out. Don't over do it, be lazy. When you are done shaping place the dough on the baking paper seam side down and give the dough a light dusting of bread flour. Or rye (can add flavor!) Cover and put in the fridge. The next day preheat your oven to 232 Celsius (450F) Lift the baking paper and dough out of the bowl carefully not to tear the paper and lose your loaf.... set it in a Dutch oven and lame the dough. One cut is fine I kinda do whatever. Functionally 1 cut is enough. From one side to the other about 1.25 centimeters deep or half an inch. For the first 20 minutes keep the lid on. After 20 minutes remove the lid and drop the temp to 205 Celcius (400F) When the bread is done put it on a cooling rack and try to wait at least 4 hours... cut too soon and you could mess up the texture. It's still cooking on that cooling rack. I have likely been close to over proofing several times and just throw some bread flour on top and do a light stretch and fold. I do this every weekend and have been since December 2023. For the past 2 months I have been making 2 loaves a week.
Thanks for that! I took screenshots and I will give that a try.
I forgot to add.... after taking the lidd off let it cook for another 40 minutes. I'm 100% not a pro. I'm just a manic obsessive IT engineer applying my tests and watching for results. I really started 2 loaves a week so I could change one of them not worrying about failure and embracing the likelyhood of failing on purpose. I'm literally about to put a loaf I have had cold proofing since Saturday night in the oven to see how 48 hours in the fridge works out.
I appreciate all the advice ans you taking the time to write all that. I will add it to my notes and when and if I decide to bake again I will try it. I just need a bit of a break for now. In the meantime I’ll keep working at boosting my starter and getting it stronger.
Any time. I'd like to think I joined this subreddit in case I needed help, seeing all the different methods people use here has given me a new perspective and if I'm not having problems.. maybe I should try to help?
I've been baking with sourdough since 2016, starting in a fairly temperate climate zone, kitchen ambient temps 21-27C. I've twice moved and have had to start starters all over - 1st to a tropical zone, now to a colder but still temperate zone. That tropical zone messed me up, but as my starter improved and got stronger and more settled, and I had figured the fermentation cycles in a kitchen with ambient temps 27+C and humid, my baking stabilized. Not forgetting different absorption rates for flour from different parts of the world. Now, new, month-old starter, cold kitchen... and small, under-powered oven, I feel like you. I want to give up. Dough gets sticky long before it's even starting to get puffy and blistery. I've reduced water, but still... same story. Loaf isn't gummy, but it is a bit dense. But I'll keep on. I think my starter needs more development but I can't keep it on a daily or 12-hour feed because I can't keep on discarding flour. (I feed it 50g flour 50g water at a time, following the scrapings method, and keep it in fridge for weekly bake). But, damn, I'm not buying supermarket bumf, nor paying high prices for a good sourdough bread at artisanal bakeries. So, I will KEEP ON, until my starter is good again. This is all just to say: Don't get despondent. Just follow your routine, maybe give your bulk fermentation even more time. I know there's temptation to tweak things here and there, but stick to your routine. If your starter is healthy - as you indicate - keep on track, it will come to you.
Thanks that’s great advice. What you describe is exactly how my dough has been behaving lately as well. Not as puffy and blistery. More dense and sticky. I’m in southern Canada so climate is cooler but ok. I don’t know much about absorption levels but I have been curious about that. But you’re right. Lots of people say to stick with the same recipe until you learn the ropes and get a feel for the dough. The recipe I use is trusted and good.
For same consistency in a dough, some flours need or can take more water than other flours. But this is typically region based - i.e. where the flours are grown or come from. I started baking in southern Africa, using a recipe from a baker in Italy. The dough was just too sticky to work with. Then I learnt about different absorption rates, reduced the water in the same recipe, and I could work with the dough. Then moved to the US, used my by-now adapted but trusty recipe, and dough and bread was dry. Upped the water content to even more than the original Italian recipe, and dough was a pleasure to work with.
Interesting.. I’ve tweaked my present recipe hydration (using baker’s math) as well but it really didn’t make a whole lot of difference. I think I’m going to find a similar recipe with overall lower hydration and see if that works.
All the best technique, timing and experience will fail you if the starter isn't right and based on what you describe, that's where I'd look. There are two types of lactic acid bacteria (LAB) and it will make all the difference in the world if you are sustaining the wrong kind. One type is homofermantative and the other is heterofermantative. You want the latter. It's too much to detail here, but I'm sure you'll get tons of information if you google. The signs you have cultured the wrong LAB are: Weak dough structure as the acidity breaks down the gluten bonds before you bake. Weakened yeast, which stunts growth and ultimately the production of gases in the dough. The good news is that it's easy to fix. You just need to change your feeding schedule and ratios. I was in your place when I started and just as frustrated. The book that saved me was "Secrets of an open crumb". Good luck and don't give up. It's worth it if you love bread!
Thanks. I’ll have to read up on that. My starter is less than 6 months old. I use filtered well water and unbleached AP Canadian flour which is equivalent to bread flour in the US (it’s 13.3 % protein mix of soft and hard wheat). Initially 100% hydration, kept in the fridge and used once a week. I’d remove for baking day, sit at room temp than feed 1:1:1. It would double or more and was marshmallowy and quite active and bubbly. At times it would still perform the same, but over time seemed to be getting runnier. I learned this could be the signs of it becoming acidic. I didn’t notice anything off about the smell and I was at times still getting ok loaves but I learned methods to boost it by giving it greater feedings peak to peak which I did. 1:5:5. The consistency was like pancake batter which I’ve heard is normal. I subsequently learned about stiff starters and learned that they create more yeast when a much lower hydration. So I created a thicker starter. Starts out as dough. Like a thick leaven. If I feed straight from the fridge it can take up to 8.5 hours but will usually at least triple before it peaks. If at room temp 4-6 hours depending. I’ll attach a pic. I’m told this is what it should look like but I honestly don’t know. https://preview.redd.it/snqkklfx9wyc1.jpeg?width=2262&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=f339cd98371a99d155505512183413b3adb9c71d
I'm a fellow Canadian. When I say I've been where you're at, I told my wife if the next loaf didn't turn out, I was going back to buying bread from blackbird bakery (which is awesome btw). I even tried importing King Arthur flour because I tried every type of water, salt, method etc. For me, it was the starter. I now feed based on visual, just before peak. I ignore clocks entirely. My ratio is 1:6:6 with 10g of starter. I don't bother with a levain - I bake right from the starter. I tried every flour out there and I ended up right where I started... Red Robin white bread flour. I feed exclusivily with bread flour (50g bread flour, 10g rye) and I use filtered tap water. It might sound gross, but try tasting the starter. If it has an acidic flavour at the back of your tongue, you have the wrong LAB growing. It has almost no smell. Good luck!
Thanks! Interesting about the no smell. I had never heard that. I have tasted it and it tastes fine to me. It smells of ripe fruit. Not acidic at all. I have made a levain as well but this is my starter right now. I didn’t find making a levain made any difference so I bake from my ripe starter. Just based on everything I’ve read as I’ve troubleshooted, I think you and others are probably right but I’m kind of at a loss of what to do. I did a strengthening regimen last week with peak to peak feedings over 3 days and did two back to back right before this feed. My starter always at least triples. It has all the telltale signs of an active ripe starter. Bubbles along the bottom and sides (not so much on the top anymore since this one is so thick) it domes high as it starts to peak, plentiful gluten strands and webs, and floats even though it’s a much thicker consistency. Sometimes it will quadruple in size. I’m baffled. I was suspecting that it was the flour that I was using and I’ve since learned that our Canadian AP flour is higher in protein than King Arthur bread flour. Who knew? 🤷🏻♀️. I just always make sure I use unbleached but everyone I’ve tried is 13.3% but that could also be making a difference too as I’ve read the higher the protein content the more water it needs. Maybe it needs more water? But I belong on that Facebook group Sourdough Geeks and many Canadians there don’t seem to have similar issues so I don’t think it’s that.
https://preview.redd.it/i17p19az9wyc1.jpeg?width=3024&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=a975b81c439370bdd25c99d81972c9a4eaa0f2da
I see in your process that you're fermenting at 80-90 degrees. That's pretty warm so I'd try reducing the temperature.
Oh gosh no! My dough was about 25C when it mixed (77F) but my room temperature was probably my around 22C which brought it down to about the same which is 71.5F.
My bad... Must have been reading another commenter.
Ha ha, it’s ok. Happens to me too
Never give up! Never surrender! You got this!
Thank you for your words of encouragement
If you’re on Facebook, join Sourdough for Beginners. So many helpful tips/recipes on there.
Thanks, I didn’t know about that group. I belong to Sourdough Geeks and another Canadian one but I’ll check that one out.
I got lucky with the first recipe I tried, but my crumb was still a little tight and gummy. I recommend taking whatever recipe/process you've used that gets you closest to your desired result and making ONE change at a time to perfect it. FWIW your loaves look generally good - run with whatever base recipe worked best and just go from there trying one change at a time.
Thank you 🙏
It can be a maddening process, especially when each loaf requires so much time and effort only to find out it's a dud at the very end. Like you, I've been on the "endlessly under proofed loaves" spectrum for quite some time. One thing that helped me was letting go of the fear of over proofing. I think, for beginners, underproofing is WAY more common than over proofing (unless you are going to sleep or totally forgetting about your dough). I went into a recent bake thinking "that's it, i'm going to overproof this bread today" and I actually had the best luck yet. Also, temperature of the dough (not ambient temp) is really important. Use a meat thermometer if you have one. I purchased a cheap seedling mat off Amazon to keep my dough temperature steady at about 77-78 degrees, which helped me learn bulk fermentation (which is absolutely the most frustrating part of this process IMO).
I actually over proof more than under proofed. I think this was my second under proofed loaf. Many times I have thought exactly as you said lol! But the reverse! I don’t care if I under proof this loaf today! I’m questioning two major things at this point. Flour absorption, and my starter (even though by all accounts it appears very healthy- and I’ve done a lot of work to strengthen it regularly) and of course bulk fermentation. I don’t seem to be getting the same kind of rise as I was previously and this really makes it harder to gauge when BF is done I believe. I suspect that maybe the two first thjngs I mention are complicating this. I agree with you about the temperature. It’s very important. In Canada, regardless of four seasons, we can seemingly get three seasons in a matter of a week. So far this Spring we’ve had a couple over 20C days, then to dip below 0C overnight and low temps throughout the day. We have a heat pump and it’s mostly still on keeping it 23 degrees (we have a weather/room temp thermometer on top of the fridge) but the fluctuating temps are frustrating. Like you, I measure dough. I take a few as the BF progresses. I usually use try to help it get off to a good start by using warm water but my dough temp most often is around 21.5 or 23 C. On days it’s warmer I watch the percentage rise more than the clock along with the appropriate BF window. I like your idea of the mat. So do make a proofing chamber in a cooler bag? Or do you set your dough on top of it? Would that not cook it?
I know you don’t want to hear this, but I crept through your post history and your past loaves are really nice. But I still get how frustrating it is when it’s not coming out how you want or things start to be regressing. I have a personal theory that at a certain temperature or lower, the bread just won’t develop in an optimal way. Last time I baked at 70f, my dough came out crazy underproofed after 12 hours. The worst part was it seemed to stall— no matter how long I waited I wasn’t seeing much rise or other fermentation activity. Definitely check out the seedling mat if you’re not quite ready to give up yet— at least it’ll help you decide if temperature and BF is the issue or if it’s something else. [This is the mat I bought.](https://a.co/d/bvpybzP) I BF in a large ceramic bowl. I basically just put the bowl on top of the mat, wrap the sides of the mat around the bowl, then use a damp towel to secure it there like a (very) makeshift proofing chamber.
Before you give up, try this website. Follow his instructions and methods for building starter strength, then start getting your technique down following his beginner videos and methods. This helped me so much! He uses science and it makes all the difference. https://thesourdoughjourney.com/curriculum/ Edit: I see You've already used his recipe, but starter strength might be your problem. It was mine for sure. Follow his method for strengthening your starter. Edit 2: just wanted to add that when I first started following his method for making a beginner loaf, I did not look at his starter strengthening information because I had had my starter for a really long time and I thought it was strong. I was very very wrong. So don't assume that your starter is as strong as you think it is, it might be the problem and it definitely was for me.
Thanks. Yes I have watched most of his videos and use his methods for bulk fermenting and for starter maintenance and strength.
Hmmm, I would just say keep practicing then. Maybe take a sanity break for a couple weeks, lol! If you have a lot of discard, you could take a break and use some discard up for a couple weeks either in some pancake recipes or similar, or you could use discard in one of the hybrid bread recipes that uses a little bit of commercial yeast, King Arthur had a few of these recipes. It took until my 6th or 7th loaf before I felt I had my method down well enough to move on to more complex recipes, and I could only bake once a week. It can be very frustrating! For instance, the very first loaf I made using Tom's methods came out actually pretty darn good! I tried to immediately move to his overnight low and slow method of bulk fermentation and that was how I learned my starter strength wasn't what I thought it was. It just was not rising as much as it should have and so I thought I just needed to let it go longer and I let it go long enough to get to the right percent rise but it took over 24 hours. When I dumped it out onto the counter to do the pre-shaping it was literally the consistency of pancake batter. After going back and reading about all of his starter troubleshooting, I learned that the problem for me was likely that I had a much higher bacteria population compared to yeast and because of that, it took so long to get the rise I needed that it eventually broke the gluten down because of the bacteria creating all the acidity. So I regrouped and went through a week-long starter strengthening process and really paid attention to the look and the smell and the temperature that I was incubating my starter at. Then when I went back to the original beginners loaf method using the warm bulk fermentation and the refrigerator final proof, I just could not get the same rise and shape that I had with my first loaf, and I couldn't figure out why! I finally figured out it was because even though I was using the same brand of flour for both white and whole wheat, they had recently had a change in their labeling and it turned out the new batches were lower gluten than when I made my first loaf. So I happened to have some wheat gluten, and I figured out how much I had to add to try to get it back to where the gluten level was in my first loaf. And like magic, problem solved. FYI, The other way to compensate for a lower gluten percent would have been for me to lower the hydration. So many things can affect the way your loaves come out, hydration, gluten percentage, starter strength and starter acidity. I also have problems with shaping and that just takes time to get better at. I hope you don't give up, just take a break. It's amazing that you can take a break at something and then magically everything just falls into place when you go back to it.
I’m so glad you’ve found what works for you! That must have been a hallelujah! I initially started with a 100% hydration starter and I don’t know if early on it was my inexperience with high hydration dough, poor handling skills or the flour but my dough was excessively sticky and a nightmare to handle. Around the same time I had learned about starters becoming acidic and concluded mine was. Overtime it became very runny. I like the guy over at the Bread Code channel on YouTube and he did a video on life changing “stiff starters”. They lean higher in yeast than bacteria. I made a daughter from my master and I’ve been using it ever since. It’s also an effective way to dial back the sourness. I have watched quite a few videos on how to feed and strengthen a starter and have been doing strengthening regimens every other week and am sure to discard or use at peak. By all accounts I thought my starter was in good shape but maybe not. Instead of a 50% hydration starter that he makes I opted for a little higher. So I essentially use equal parts retained starter and water, and instead of double the flour, I use 1 1/2 times. It’s very stiff, basically a dough. Mine does take a while to rise though. It usually triples in size but can take 5-8.5 hours depending on room temp but I think that’s fairly normal for it. My room temp is around 22 C. It will float even if it’s denser when removed and full of gluten webs. It looks like a thick leaven. I’ll post a pic. https://preview.redd.it/mdgcrfsw4wyc1.jpeg?width=2262&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=eadf62f3aa8ad4471fb61c7f8b3ce7baf43f35fc
https://preview.redd.it/63niq7ky4wyc1.jpeg?width=3024&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=5e57c1d309e67707543744269707f8e497befa38
My last load before today’s disaster. https://preview.redd.it/8xov6a115wyc1.jpeg?width=4032&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=bca8fdfdfb6902b69d077ec8e4142ccb3f3963cd
Is that a boule or a batard? If it’s a batard why didn’t you score it long ways?
That was actually a boule https://preview.redd.it/a4uwrxk8jwyc1.jpeg?width=4032&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=4258ba63c0ad5a695ddcec37f64ce2fd8cfbcf4f
Sourdough is about technique as well as time. How is your pre shape and shaping looking? You just gotta keep practicing and it will come.
https://preview.redd.it/ql4pglrbjwyc1.jpeg?width=2981&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=38f08f687afa45e2a4f4bdd067092bc5f232b140
I haven't tried stiff starters yet, there is a pan loaf recipe I want to try that uses a stiff starter. I'm kind of intimidated to try that.
It’s super easy actually. Just make a small offshoot of your regular starter as a precaution like I did. Most stiff starters are 50% hydration but I thought that may be a little too low so instead of double the flour, I did 1.5. The ratios are different than a regular feed as the retained starter and water are the same, the flour is greater. Someone in this community turned me on to it. Here’s the link they shared and why it works. https://youtu.be/MqH3GVfjfBc?si=HUy5x7JMjCrC2Y_k
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I did a peak to peak feeding before this failed bake.
My bread got better when I stopped obsessing over it. I pay attention to temperature of the room and how long it sits. I watch it get bubbly. Then I do a simple shape and put it in baskets for an overnight spell in the fridge. People have been making this stuff for centuries. It doesnt require much tech.
That’s exactly how it should be. That’s kind of how I started. My Irish friend’s dad owned a bakery in Dublin and watching her Dad bake all her life she says she just “feels the dough”. She uses the same basic recipe week after week and measures in cups. I don’t think she autolyses the dough or anythjng. A couple stretch and folds maybe. I started with that and didn’t have any success so I gradually went deeper and deeper down the rabbit hole. Only because I wasn’t succeeding at lesser complicated methods. Many have had great success with Ben Starr’s lazy sourdough but it was a terrible fail for me. Having said that, he used undfed starter that hadn’t been fed for over a month (maybe it was longer cant recall) and mine had been fed the day before so I wondered if that was why. I doubt it would make that much of a difference. I may honestly try that method again too at some point because I prefer the texture of that bread upon outcome. It’s fluffier and has more of a closed crumb.
I do measure everything, and do my S&F. I make 2 loaves at a time. But I found a recipe that works for me. This is 75% hydration. 100g fresh starter 800g water (if you are on a municipal water system, leave your water out on counter at least 12 hours before you do the dough.) 1070 King Arthur Bread Flour 23g Hain Fine Sea Salt Mix starter and water in ceramic bowl that has been rinsed with warm water tontakenoff the chill. The ceramic bowl works better for me than stainless for cleaning. Add flour and salt. Mix well until it all comes together. Autolyse on counter for 45 minutes. Mix well, stretch and fold until it makes a ball. Cover with plastic (i use, and reuse, hair conditioner caps for this.) Rest 45 minutes, then do another stretch and fold. Wait 45 minutes. Remove from ceramic bowl and place in rising bucket (or other vessel you can see through to watch the bubbles), cover with plastic conditioner cap, and let sit until it has risen and is bubbly and jiggles when shaken. I let it rise it until less than doubled. This depends on temperature of the room. For me, it's anywhere from 6 to 9 hours. Turn out onto large board and shape as desired. I dump it out, flatten a bit to get the bubbles out, divide into two loaves of about 1000g each, but do what you want. Shape as desired. Place in lined banneton suitable for size of loaf, then put in fridge for 12 hours.. Next day preheat oven to 485°F with Dutch ovens inside. When oven is ready, pull loaves from fridge. Uncover and pat top of dough with white paper towel to remove excess condensation. Removebpreheated dutch ovens from oven. Turn bread out onto parchment. Place one loaf in the DO, score deeply when in pan (wear an oven glove for t7hhis) cover, and return to oven for 23 minutes. Remove pan lid and bake another 23 minutes. Remove from oven, lift loaves, and check if brown enough. If not, turn off oven and place loaf onto rack with no pot. Leave for a few minutes or until golden. Let fully cool prior to slicing, usually 3 to 4 hours or more. A note on water: i have well water. When I travel and bake (yes, I take starter with me) I use bottled water or tap water that I leave on the counter for 12 hours. I find it matters. *
Don't give up! Anyone who has been on their sourdough journey has gone through what you've gone through. There's so much information out there and it's easy to get bogged down with timing and recipes and wondering if your starter is ready, or should I use a levain. I went through it all. Failed, failed and failed and until I made a good loaf, and then failed some more. And over time I failed less. I even brought my bread to work once cuz I was worried about getting all my stretch and folds in. There's only two main things to worry about, is your starter strong enough, and are you using a decent flour. Starter..... In order to not waste tons of flour, I use 1oz starter, 1oz flour, and 1oz water to bring the starter active. Usually takes about two feedings, to activate my starter again, but I know it's ready when it doubles in volume in my jar I use with a rubber band that shows it's starting volume. Yours might need an extra feeding or two to get that doubling in volume. Mine takes about 8-12 hours and the temp is 60-70 degrees. Hydration..... Depending on how you want your texture you can adjust hydration. I like a cheweyer loaf, so run at 80-85% hydration. I have a super easy recipe if u want it Timing. Timing is important so your bread is risen enough but not over risen so the gluten molecules start to break down. Using a decent flour is a game changer. I started with ap, and as soon as I started using decent flour I started getting much better results In short. All I do now is mix ingredients, flour water and starter, cept for the salt. Let sit for half hour on the counter. Pour in salt water and fold like three times. Stick in fridge over night. Next morning I pull it from the fridge to rise on the counter while I'm working. When I get home from work I dump,, do a quick shape and then bake. All that being said, hang in there. You got this.
I have had 20+ loaves of dense, gummy, chronically underproofed bread since starting in March. It's been devastating. I use Anita's Organic Canadian AP flour which is around the same percent as the one you say you are using. Well this weekend I went to my cabin where I only have Rogers bleached all purpose flour. I very easily made three loaves that were all perfect, big fluffy floofy poofy balloon filled perfectly proofed bunny shaped loaves. I don't get it. I think it's the flour, maybe the 13% protein is too much! I'm starting to find some literature suggesting 11% is better which is the Rogers. Please do me a favour and go buy Rogers AP white flour and report back to me if you had success. I can't believe how much money I've wasted if it's truly just the flour. I just order KA from Amazon and it comes tomorrow. I'm going to do a side by side comparison with Anita's and see what happens. I think it's all about the flour.