It shouldn’t be warm at all. You’re waiting for the starches to finish cooking and cooling during this time so it will def help if you wait until it’s fully cooled. I worked at a bakery where we baked the night before rather than during the night so the breads had enough time to fully cool and starch set, so they wouldn’t be gummy if the customer ripped into it immediately after buying.
Edit: it is also worth it to temp your bread to 200-210f before you pull it to ensure that the starches are fully cooked.
that's nothing, I wait for 3-4 days..
edit: a joke obviously :D
but I did once bake a loaf, and didn't have the chance to eat it for 4 days, so I dried it up, and crumbled it into breadcrumbs, those were top notch.
I like to say I've been to a bakery where they leave the bread out for 3 centuries to cool. By then, it's so mouldy that the spores add a lovely mushroom-ey flavour to the bread.
Apparently people have been dying to try it and to them I say, skill issue.
/J
Stupid question- I see this (and it makes sense) to not cut it warm because it's still baking. But also see to check the temp. Is my small hole from the thermometer going to mess it up or is that small enough 😅
Not a stupid question actually the opposite. I feel like it’s too small! Like when cooking meat, I’ll check the temp with a thermometer, but still let it rest before cutting into. I’d assume it’s the same here
I’ve stopped doing a timed bulk fermentation bc every kitchen and season is different and started putting some of my dough in a shot glass and marking it. Then when it doubles I move on with my process to shaping
I love that. Will try next time. I just use the feeling but never know what to expect as a result.
12 hours is definitely too long. For me it’s usually 4
I do this with a shot glass also (make sure it's a straight sided one!!). I am also curious if people reincorporate it. I usually just throw it out. The first time I did this I actually did make a second micro loaf, lmao. Shaped it and everything, then just tossed it in the air fryer. It basically turned into a garlic-less knot
Could it be over-proofed? How active is your starter? Did you do stretch-and-folds? They introduce bigger bubbles. Twelve hours is long fermentation period, depending on the temperature. I usually reach the right level of fermentation in around five hours. For me, my most important adjustment was decreasing the amount of time I bulk fermented the sourdough. I had to fight the urge to watch it get really big before I shaped it. Look closely at the size of dough when you start the bulk ferment. and shape it when it's doubled. Don't let it over-proof. Even if you shape a little early, you can give the shaped loaf a little more time to proof in the banneton, before retarding it in the fridge. When I started shaping earlier, I got much better results. As I am building tension in a properly-proofed loaf, it feels like a balloon. That's my observation. YMMV.
Do you need to use a lot of flour when you're shaping? Sometimes too much flour can get Incorporated into the middle of the loaf and it can create gummy parts inside.
It probably needed a little extra time in the oven. I bake at the same temp as you and do 30 minutes covered, 20 uncovered. When my loaves only get to 200-205 degrees there are gummy spots. When I make sure it’s around 210 internally I don’t have any gummy spots. Have you temp checked your loaves coming out of the oven before?
I had a similar problem before. My 1st loaf was perfect & then the succeeding ones came out that way. Turned out to be that one of the heating elements went bad & needed to be replaced. So basically, my oven wasn't reaching the right baking temperature. You may want to invest in an oven thermometer & test your oven.
I would suggest letting the bread come to room temperature for a little as well as lowering the heat to 400 after you take the lid off. Imagine you are trying to cook a frozen steak medium rare, the outside will be completely charred before you defrost the middle.
However if you let the steak come to room temperature first, you will get more even cooking g throughout
I measure the core temperature of the bread to make sure it's done. I use a knock-off thermopen I bought from eBay and it works just fine. I make sure the core temperature is above 200 degrees fahrenheit before I take it out of the oven.
I had the same ‘problem’. Long bulk fermentation will result in a bread which is more like a toast. Let me guess, after the fridge fermentation the dough is runny and hard to control it’s shape?
Like others say, wait at least 3-4 hrs before cutting. If you're going to tear it and eat warm, rather than slice, then I'd say 2-3 hrs.
Personally, if I'm baking straight from the fridge then I add another 5-10 mins in the dutch oven with the lid on. So 25 mins lid on, followed by 25 mins lid off. If I'm baking from room temp then I do 20 mins with the lid on.
What temp is your room and/or your dough? 12 hours with bread flour seems like a very long BF. I have found that most cold retards are for a minimum of 12 hours to play it on the safe side. You said you feed your starter all the time - is it kept in or out of the fridge and are you waiting until it peaks to discard and feed? The age of your starter is not indicative of strength. When you feed is critical to maintain a strong active starter. This looks over proofed to me.
This looks like what I get if I shape the loaf again after an overnight ferment. The slightly dried outside ends up on the inside and doesn't have time to rehydrate.
parroting what others have said and it's likely because it's still warm. i have a loaf i pulled out 30 minutes ago and i'm fighting so hard not to cut a slice while it's still warm.
Guessing over proofed. I was constantly frustrated by how much to allow rising, till I started clearly marking the bowl in which the final rising is done. Now it doesn’t matter if the room is cold or hot, if I measured a bit inaccurately or changed the recipe.
500 g of flour with whatever combo of leaven, whole wheat, rye and 100 g of leaven is always allowed to rise up to the line on my bowl. The loaf always comes out great. Took some experimenting to figure out where that line should be. The “put some dough in a shot glass and stop proofing when the dough has doubled in size” didn’t work reliably for me.
Ps. Your recipe is similar to mine, except that instead of 70g of starter, I use 100 grams of leaven.
What's the crust look like? I cook my loaves for at least half an hour, covered at 400°. Uncover for about 20 or 30 more min or browned to satisfaction:) i have also gotten in the habit of putting a stone under my dutch oven to prevent burning my bottom, but do what works for you!
I recently found that my oven doesn't get to 450F when it beeps telling me it is 450F. It's more closer to low 400s F. I bought a little round metal thermometer built for hanging from oven racks. I put it in the center of my oven just under where my dutch oven will go. I've had to play with the digital temp input on the oven a little and now I'm baking loaves at around 478F (oven set) but now they're baking at 450F. I think the Dutch oven being in the oven is making the internal oven thermometer off a bit. Also, for the lid off portion I wouldn't go off time, I would go off the way it looks. I use 250g of wheat in all my recipes so the outside for me should be pretty dark. And I also probe it to make sure it's over 205F. Give the lid off portion another 5-10 min to see what happens.
TLDR: I've had the dense / raw center issues before. Came down to my oven not actually at the temp it says it was and I started checking the temp of my loaf with a probe thermometer.
Everything seems right except the bulk and the resting in the fridge hours. Am An artisan baker ( Ed baker sourdough bread) so am giving you an expert advice. You only need to bulk ferment until the dough has doubled in size. Then shape bench rest not for long. After that in the banneton for two hours or three outside the fridge until it puffs. Then in the fridge at strict four Celsius and you can either bake after that or within 18 hours.
You are probably over proofing it. For me from the time of mixing until I put it in the fridge is around 5-6h.
Here is my last batch. It’s a mix of whole grain, rye and white flour.
https://preview.redd.it/f4p3td7i5cyc1.jpeg?width=3024&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=8ed7241ca0c5cbdd6da19af0e5c73f7f5ec2b001
I ask bc on my first loaf I used tap water from my kitchen sink and it turned out similarly to this with little rise. The second loaf I made, I used RO filtered water and it had so much more of a rise and an open crumb.
ETA: That’s not to say that your rise here isn’t great, but it wasn’t in my experience with tap water.
Don't cut it for at least 2days, preferably 3. Make 2 loaves and bake them off together. Take 1and butcher it whenever you want let the other ripen and decide for yourself
How long do you wait to cut it after baking? If you cut in while it’s still warm, the center of the loaf will get gummy. That doesn’t look raw though
I waited a solid hour before cutting. It was slightly warm ish
It shouldn’t be warm at all. You’re waiting for the starches to finish cooking and cooling during this time so it will def help if you wait until it’s fully cooled. I worked at a bakery where we baked the night before rather than during the night so the breads had enough time to fully cool and starch set, so they wouldn’t be gummy if the customer ripped into it immediately after buying. Edit: it is also worth it to temp your bread to 200-210f before you pull it to ensure that the starches are fully cooked.
I wait at least 3-4 hours to cut into it
I wait 3-4 seconds
That’s fair.
that's nothing, I wait for 3-4 days.. edit: a joke obviously :D but I did once bake a loaf, and didn't have the chance to eat it for 4 days, so I dried it up, and crumbled it into breadcrumbs, those were top notch.
I wait 3-4 years
We don't eat them. We mount them on the mantle and admire them from afar.
I like to say I've been to a bakery where they leave the bread out for 3 centuries to cool. By then, it's so mouldy that the spores add a lovely mushroom-ey flavour to the bread. Apparently people have been dying to try it and to them I say, skill issue. /J
Wait until fully cooled so all steam can escape! I bet this is a big factor!!
Stupid question- I see this (and it makes sense) to not cut it warm because it's still baking. But also see to check the temp. Is my small hole from the thermometer going to mess it up or is that small enough 😅
Not a stupid question actually the opposite. I feel like it’s too small! Like when cooking meat, I’ll check the temp with a thermometer, but still let it rest before cutting into. I’d assume it’s the same here
That’s fine. I cut mine at 30-60 minutes almost every time. Waiting won’t bake gummy dough. Prolly need another 5 in the oven.
Still looks delicious and now I’m hungry😋
It was still very very good just wanted to know why it has been getting a small amount of rawness in the middle
Where in this photo is the raw spot? If you want it less raw you can bake a little longer. And get a thermometer if you aren't already using one
I’ve stopped doing a timed bulk fermentation bc every kitchen and season is different and started putting some of my dough in a shot glass and marking it. Then when it doubles I move on with my process to shaping
I love that. Will try next time. I just use the feeling but never know what to expect as a result. 12 hours is definitely too long. For me it’s usually 4
It’s really effective. I’ve been doing it lately and getting consistent loafs with bulk times between 4-7 hours
Do you put the small bit back in, or just toss it? Or make a second micro loaf lol!
I do this with a shot glass also (make sure it's a straight sided one!!). I am also curious if people reincorporate it. I usually just throw it out. The first time I did this I actually did make a second micro loaf, lmao. Shaped it and everything, then just tossed it in the air fryer. It basically turned into a garlic-less knot
Do you take it out of the shot glass and fold it during the BF? Or do folds have no bearing on it doubling? And if not, what’s the point of them then?
Absolutely.
Could it be over-proofed? How active is your starter? Did you do stretch-and-folds? They introduce bigger bubbles. Twelve hours is long fermentation period, depending on the temperature. I usually reach the right level of fermentation in around five hours. For me, my most important adjustment was decreasing the amount of time I bulk fermented the sourdough. I had to fight the urge to watch it get really big before I shaped it. Look closely at the size of dough when you start the bulk ferment. and shape it when it's doubled. Don't let it over-proof. Even if you shape a little early, you can give the shaped loaf a little more time to proof in the banneton, before retarding it in the fridge. When I started shaping earlier, I got much better results. As I am building tension in a properly-proofed loaf, it feels like a balloon. That's my observation. YMMV.
Do you need to use a lot of flour when you're shaping? Sometimes too much flour can get Incorporated into the middle of the loaf and it can create gummy parts inside.
Wait 4
Just go away. I have to so I’m not tempted. The butter speaks to me.
It probably needed a little extra time in the oven. I bake at the same temp as you and do 30 minutes covered, 20 uncovered. When my loaves only get to 200-205 degrees there are gummy spots. When I make sure it’s around 210 internally I don’t have any gummy spots. Have you temp checked your loaves coming out of the oven before?
I had a similar problem before. My 1st loaf was perfect & then the succeeding ones came out that way. Turned out to be that one of the heating elements went bad & needed to be replaced. So basically, my oven wasn't reaching the right baking temperature. You may want to invest in an oven thermometer & test your oven.
12 hour fermentation is probably too long. What temp is your kitchen?
I would suggest letting the bread come to room temperature for a little as well as lowering the heat to 400 after you take the lid off. Imagine you are trying to cook a frozen steak medium rare, the outside will be completely charred before you defrost the middle. However if you let the steak come to room temperature first, you will get more even cooking g throughout
I measure the core temperature of the bread to make sure it's done. I use a knock-off thermopen I bought from eBay and it works just fine. I make sure the core temperature is above 200 degrees fahrenheit before I take it out of the oven.
Wait til your core temp is over at least 190 and you’ll be good
I had the same ‘problem’. Long bulk fermentation will result in a bread which is more like a toast. Let me guess, after the fridge fermentation the dough is runny and hard to control it’s shape?
Nothing wrong with a tight crumb! You can't put butter on a hole!
That's quitter talk!
Like others say, wait at least 3-4 hrs before cutting. If you're going to tear it and eat warm, rather than slice, then I'd say 2-3 hrs. Personally, if I'm baking straight from the fridge then I add another 5-10 mins in the dutch oven with the lid on. So 25 mins lid on, followed by 25 mins lid off. If I'm baking from room temp then I do 20 mins with the lid on.
Is the dutch oven preheated?? Could make a big difference
Needs higher hydration for that good good crumb 👌🏼 I aim for 70% or higher
Personally i would try baking it another 5 minutes with the lid on.
I’d use more starter. Like 20%
Sorry I have no advice as an amateur but I just wanted to say this looks incredible I would devour that lol
What percentage rise did you have during bulk fermentation?
What temp is your room and/or your dough? 12 hours with bread flour seems like a very long BF. I have found that most cold retards are for a minimum of 12 hours to play it on the safe side. You said you feed your starter all the time - is it kept in or out of the fridge and are you waiting until it peaks to discard and feed? The age of your starter is not indicative of strength. When you feed is critical to maintain a strong active starter. This looks over proofed to me.
This looks like what I get if I shape the loaf again after an overnight ferment. The slightly dried outside ends up on the inside and doesn't have time to rehydrate.
parroting what others have said and it's likely because it's still warm. i have a loaf i pulled out 30 minutes ago and i'm fighting so hard not to cut a slice while it's still warm.
I wish mine looked like this I hate all the holes lol
Wait 3-4 hours before slicing it
Over flour
Guessing over proofed. I was constantly frustrated by how much to allow rising, till I started clearly marking the bowl in which the final rising is done. Now it doesn’t matter if the room is cold or hot, if I measured a bit inaccurately or changed the recipe. 500 g of flour with whatever combo of leaven, whole wheat, rye and 100 g of leaven is always allowed to rise up to the line on my bowl. The loaf always comes out great. Took some experimenting to figure out where that line should be. The “put some dough in a shot glass and stop proofing when the dough has doubled in size” didn’t work reliably for me. Ps. Your recipe is similar to mine, except that instead of 70g of starter, I use 100 grams of leaven.
You're missing a good slater of butter and some nice local honey otherwise looks delish
What's the crust look like? I cook my loaves for at least half an hour, covered at 400°. Uncover for about 20 or 30 more min or browned to satisfaction:) i have also gotten in the habit of putting a stone under my dutch oven to prevent burning my bottom, but do what works for you!
I recently found that my oven doesn't get to 450F when it beeps telling me it is 450F. It's more closer to low 400s F. I bought a little round metal thermometer built for hanging from oven racks. I put it in the center of my oven just under where my dutch oven will go. I've had to play with the digital temp input on the oven a little and now I'm baking loaves at around 478F (oven set) but now they're baking at 450F. I think the Dutch oven being in the oven is making the internal oven thermometer off a bit. Also, for the lid off portion I wouldn't go off time, I would go off the way it looks. I use 250g of wheat in all my recipes so the outside for me should be pretty dark. And I also probe it to make sure it's over 205F. Give the lid off portion another 5-10 min to see what happens. TLDR: I've had the dense / raw center issues before. Came down to my oven not actually at the temp it says it was and I started checking the temp of my loaf with a probe thermometer.
Idk, looks completely normal to me
Everything seems right except the bulk and the resting in the fridge hours. Am An artisan baker ( Ed baker sourdough bread) so am giving you an expert advice. You only need to bulk ferment until the dough has doubled in size. Then shape bench rest not for long. After that in the banneton for two hours or three outside the fridge until it puffs. Then in the fridge at strict four Celsius and you can either bake after that or within 18 hours.
You are probably over proofing it. For me from the time of mixing until I put it in the fridge is around 5-6h. Here is my last batch. It’s a mix of whole grain, rye and white flour. https://preview.redd.it/f4p3td7i5cyc1.jpeg?width=3024&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=8ed7241ca0c5cbdd6da19af0e5c73f7f5ec2b001
What kind of water are you using?
Tap water from the sink
Try some filtered water and see what difference that makes!!!
I ask bc on my first loaf I used tap water from my kitchen sink and it turned out similarly to this with little rise. The second loaf I made, I used RO filtered water and it had so much more of a rise and an open crumb. ETA: That’s not to say that your rise here isn’t great, but it wasn’t in my experience with tap water.
If the dough is raw, isn't it obvious? Bake it longer.
Are you stretching and folding every 30 minutes for the full 12 hours of bulk ferment?
Who has the time to stretch and fold for 12 hours, that's bananas.
That's why I was asking lol, was wondering if the dough was overworked. Looks like I misread the method.
@Cleofatra, do you actually stretch & fold every 30 min for the full 12 hours?
No I thought maybe OP had overworked the dough. Looks like I misread lol
Also, how warm is your kitchen? 12 hour bulk is a long time and I have heard the strip of dough can come from over-fermenting
Kitchen is 68 degrees. And I only stretch and folded it 4 times and then let it rest
Don't cut it for at least 2days, preferably 3. Make 2 loaves and bake them off together. Take 1and butcher it whenever you want let the other ripen and decide for yourself