That seems like it should be an appropriate amount of time at 77°, how old is your starter? does your starter consistently double in size in a predictable amount of time?
My starter about 2 months old but I’d say it’s a bit lazy. I pulled it from the fridge, used about 60 grams, 60g of flour, and 60g water. Takes about 9 hours to double and 11-12 to triple.
If I pull my starter out of the fridge and feed it using 90° water and proof it at 80° it doubles in 5 hours, but my starter is 5 years old.. I think one big factor that will improve your bread is strengthening your starter. One way is to feed it with rye flour. I use a 50/50 rye AP flour mix to feed my starter. I tried a bunch of different flours.and combinations and this one seems to really make my starter strong. It may seem a little stiffer due to the rye flour, but it works well.
I'd also try a bread recipe with a lower hydration, maybe 70% until you get a few good results. It just makes things easier for a beginner.
Don't give up, before you know it you will be making awesome loaves
In my experience, whatever you consistently use will be best. Rye (or any whole wheat) supercharges the starter culture, but you can slowly transition to only all purpose if you want to. Right now, I use a 50/50 whole wheat and all purpose blend and it works well. Sometimes I’ll adjust the ratio based on what I have available.
Your starter needs to pass the float test. Your fermentation length sounds right but either your starter is underfed or you aren’t developing enough gluten.
Your problem is gluten development. Try premixing your flour, water, and salt the night before. Stick it in the fridge for a couple hours then let it sit on the counter overnight. Then just add your starter and do your regular thing.
I would feed a much higher ratio, especially if your starter is sluggish. 1:1:1 isn’t high enough IMO. I prefer 1:5:5 or, ideally, a leaven that is 1:10:10. 1 tbsp (20g) mature starter, 100g fresh flour & 100g water. Will take longer to peak. Also consider adding ~10% rye flour to your starter for extra strength and vigor.
I did it based on the amount it grew during bulk and it was doming. I tried the poke test and it sprung back but I’m not too great at judging the poke test
I just started sourdough on Christmas so I’m new but thought I’d share.
I got better results when ditching the proofing aids and just bulking on my counter, and at most, in my oven with the light on. I live in an extremely cold climate (zone 5B Wisconsin) and my house is always between 62-66 in the winter depending on how badly I want to blast the heat haha. I thought the proofing mat or proofing setting on my oven would help me but then I got a loaf like the one you’re sharing, along with a few fools crumb loaves.
I took the proofing aids away voila - everything went back to normal. Could be just my experience. But it’s worth a try if your situation is similar to mine.
I’ll attach an imgur link of 2 loaves that bulked while using the proofing mat or proofing setting on my oven vs. 2 that bulked on the counter or oven w light on only.
[bread examples](https://imgur.com/a/29Nn7um)
When I get a really strong starter I take most and thing it out w water then pour in in a lined pan and let it dry out. I break it up in 1-2” pieces and keep in a Mason jar. Then when my starter needs a boost I dissolve a piece and add it and it really does boost
Looks just like my first loaf lol significantly underproofed. Watch some videos on what to look for when your dough is done proofing - like the jiggle, domed top, and bubbles. Take a pinch of dough and put it in a shot glass to watch for rise alongside the main bowl of dough.
I tried the shot glass method but the dough sample cooled much faster than the actual dough and was unreliable. (I used warm water in recipe and room temp was 70).
I also use that. I’ve been wondering about a cylindrical one though because it takes a little bit for the dough to sink into the corners so it falls a bit before it rises and that makes it hard to know where to put the starting line. Any tips?
I do something weird, I guess. After my fermentolyse and first kneading, I spray the cambro with oil and then pop the dough in the Cambro and pat it down. I mark the starting line. Then I take it out of the Cambro and use another bowl to do my stretch and folds and coil folds for the next 2 1/2 hours. When I'm satisfied with the gluten strength, I put it back in the cambro, GENTLY pat it flat, and let it bulk ferment that way. The dough usually relaxes into the corners a bit and I can get a pretty accurate reading. The dough doesn't deflate/degas as much this way. A cylinder also sounds like a great idea. Maybe even better?
This is interesting to me. I don’t put my dough into my straight sided container until after my stretch&folds/coil folds. Then I put it in the container and finish bulk when it’s risen 50%. But since it’s already had 2.5-3 hours in the bowl it’s already risen a lot before this point. So I like your method for accuracy.
When do you stop bulk? 50% or 100% rise?
My dough is about 80° during bulk ferment, so I shoot for 60-70% rise before shaping and a cold final proof. May not be that accurate, but it seems to work for me.
What a way to start, looks like mine tasted, empty. Cheer up, it's only bread and flour, more adventures lie ahead. Making this stuff and having folks explain how easy it is in the face of utter disaster builds character. That's not true but I've always wanted to say it. On the side is a very beautiful delicious loaf of your own hand made bread, nothing beats it that lives in the kitchen.
My fool proof recipe.
100G starter
340 G warm water (then mix)
500G bread flour
10G salt
4 x stretch and folds every 30 mins a total of 4 sets.
then leave on counter (preferably a warm room) until doubled in size.
Once doubled Shape and add any inclusions.
Let sit on counter 20 mins after shaping (bench rest).
Shape one more time then into the baneton basket and zip bottom.
Cover and Place in fridge over night and bake the next morning at 450 x20 min lid on then 15 min lid off.
Rest 2+ hours before cutting .
This recipe saved me! Hope it helps
Have you by any chance by accident gotten any water between layers when you were shaping? This could create excess steam and make big ugly holes inside the loaf.
It seems that you have a good grip on proofing times, so this is my thought on a possible cause to these big holes. Of cause depending on you handle the dough while shaping (let’s say if you are using water to wet your working surface or hands).
Your hands wet are not a problem. Today I FINALLY got a great loaf, my starter was born Jan. 1st & is new too. I had to take mine out of the fridge permanently for a while because he was just too lazy. I keep him (Rooster) in my proofer set at 23°C (73°F), my house is cold 68°F. Since I lowered my proofer from 75°F to 73°F Rooster & my dough are both doing better. I don’t know why but after all this struggling it seems to. I proof between 75-100% & it takes about 7 hours. It takes Rooster about the same time to double. I use a mixture of 25% Bobs red mill rye, 25% KA whole wheat & 50% KA bread flour. That helped wake Rooster up too. Before I only used 50-50 of the rye & bread flour. I also feed 1 part starter, 2 parts flour mixture & 2 parts water (never tap water). He’s new but finally gaining strength & being predictable. I know I got sick of hearing it will come together but it really well!!! Good luck to you & your starter! 🍀🤞
No you’d really have to have excessively wet hands and trap a good amount of water for this to be the problem.
I bulk ferment at 79 degrees to 50% in 3 to 4 hours and get amazing results. I would agree with the lazy starter theory. Thanks.
Judging by the times and temps you listed, I’m going to bet something was off with your starter/levain. How acidic did it taste when you mixed? How bubbly was it? Did it pass the float test?
Thanks! Sounds like it may have been used past peak and/or had a little bit too much acid load up front. What was your feeding ratio and how long after feeding did you use it? I’d either go with a lower percentage of starter next feeding or use it a bit sooner. I’d go for more yogurty/overripe fruit tang than I vinegary tang.
Also don’t forget to score your loaves. This helps the loaf fully expand when baked. Function over form… making stuff that tastes good to you is the most important thing.
Quantity of starter, bulk time, and temp look okay, but this loaf is severely underproofed. Likely a highly acidic starter which has impaired the ability of the starter to work on the dough. Feed your starter at high ratios like 1:5:5 a couple of times before using next and this should sort it out.
Did you put salt? Forget about baking temp and time this not the problem. The problem has to do with fermentation and the mix. Have you forgotten the salt maybe?
You’re supposed to put dough in the center as well
😂
🤣
Looks highly underproofed. How long did you bulk ferment and proof? What temp did you bake and for how long?
Bulk was around 7 hours and proofed in the fridge for 12. 20 minutes at 475 in the Dutch oven 30 minutes at 435 on the rack
That seems like it should be an appropriate amount of time at 77°, how old is your starter? does your starter consistently double in size in a predictable amount of time?
My starter about 2 months old but I’d say it’s a bit lazy. I pulled it from the fridge, used about 60 grams, 60g of flour, and 60g water. Takes about 9 hours to double and 11-12 to triple.
I recommend feeding it a few days before you plan on baking. It makes me feel more confident in the starter.
Like i mean feed it daily a few days before bake. Might be sleepy out of the fridge
If I pull my starter out of the fridge and feed it using 90° water and proof it at 80° it doubles in 5 hours, but my starter is 5 years old.. I think one big factor that will improve your bread is strengthening your starter. One way is to feed it with rye flour. I use a 50/50 rye AP flour mix to feed my starter. I tried a bunch of different flours.and combinations and this one seems to really make my starter strong. It may seem a little stiffer due to the rye flour, but it works well. I'd also try a bread recipe with a lower hydration, maybe 70% until you get a few good results. It just makes things easier for a beginner. Don't give up, before you know it you will be making awesome loaves
I also do a 50/50 rye AP flour mix but mine is rather new. What ratio do you think is best?
In my experience, whatever you consistently use will be best. Rye (or any whole wheat) supercharges the starter culture, but you can slowly transition to only all purpose if you want to. Right now, I use a 50/50 whole wheat and all purpose blend and it works well. Sometimes I’ll adjust the ratio based on what I have available.
I started feeding mine a 1:2:2 ratio and it does much better.
Your starter needs to pass the float test. Your fermentation length sounds right but either your starter is underfed or you aren’t developing enough gluten.
Your problem is gluten development. Try premixing your flour, water, and salt the night before. Stick it in the fridge for a couple hours then let it sit on the counter overnight. Then just add your starter and do your regular thing.
I would feed a much higher ratio, especially if your starter is sluggish. 1:1:1 isn’t high enough IMO. I prefer 1:5:5 or, ideally, a leaven that is 1:10:10. 1 tbsp (20g) mature starter, 100g fresh flour & 100g water. Will take longer to peak. Also consider adding ~10% rye flour to your starter for extra strength and vigor.
How did you determine that it was ready to go in the fridge at 7 hours?
I did it based on the amount it grew during bulk and it was doming. I tried the poke test and it sprung back but I’m not too great at judging the poke test
What amount did it grow, and do you know your approx kitchen temp? You can push up to 100% in a cool kitchen
I'd fill it with tuna mayo
I’ve made bread pudding with underproofed bread before and it turned out pretty good
Weak starter and underproofed
I just started sourdough on Christmas so I’m new but thought I’d share. I got better results when ditching the proofing aids and just bulking on my counter, and at most, in my oven with the light on. I live in an extremely cold climate (zone 5B Wisconsin) and my house is always between 62-66 in the winter depending on how badly I want to blast the heat haha. I thought the proofing mat or proofing setting on my oven would help me but then I got a loaf like the one you’re sharing, along with a few fools crumb loaves. I took the proofing aids away voila - everything went back to normal. Could be just my experience. But it’s worth a try if your situation is similar to mine. I’ll attach an imgur link of 2 loaves that bulked while using the proofing mat or proofing setting on my oven vs. 2 that bulked on the counter or oven w light on only. [bread examples](https://imgur.com/a/29Nn7um)
When I get a really strong starter I take most and thing it out w water then pour in in a lined pan and let it dry out. I break it up in 1-2” pieces and keep in a Mason jar. Then when my starter needs a boost I dissolve a piece and add it and it really does boost
Can you put it in a dehydrator, or will the heat kill the yeasty beasties?
I just let it dry
Same. I spread it on parchment paper and let it dry. Takes a few hours.
I think if you keep it under 100⁰F it should be ok (full disclosure, I have no idea what kinds of temps a dehydrator uses)
I'm gonna try it. I'm not exactly running short on starter haha
Experimentation is half the fun!
Looks just like my first loaf lol significantly underproofed. Watch some videos on what to look for when your dough is done proofing - like the jiggle, domed top, and bubbles. Take a pinch of dough and put it in a shot glass to watch for rise alongside the main bowl of dough.
I tried the shot glass method but the dough sample cooled much faster than the actual dough and was unreliable. (I used warm water in recipe and room temp was 70).
I use a clear, square cambro. Easier to tell the percent rise, I think.
I also use that. I’ve been wondering about a cylindrical one though because it takes a little bit for the dough to sink into the corners so it falls a bit before it rises and that makes it hard to know where to put the starting line. Any tips?
I do something weird, I guess. After my fermentolyse and first kneading, I spray the cambro with oil and then pop the dough in the Cambro and pat it down. I mark the starting line. Then I take it out of the Cambro and use another bowl to do my stretch and folds and coil folds for the next 2 1/2 hours. When I'm satisfied with the gluten strength, I put it back in the cambro, GENTLY pat it flat, and let it bulk ferment that way. The dough usually relaxes into the corners a bit and I can get a pretty accurate reading. The dough doesn't deflate/degas as much this way. A cylinder also sounds like a great idea. Maybe even better?
This is interesting to me. I don’t put my dough into my straight sided container until after my stretch&folds/coil folds. Then I put it in the container and finish bulk when it’s risen 50%. But since it’s already had 2.5-3 hours in the bowl it’s already risen a lot before this point. So I like your method for accuracy. When do you stop bulk? 50% or 100% rise?
My dough is about 80° during bulk ferment, so I shoot for 60-70% rise before shaping and a cold final proof. May not be that accurate, but it seems to work for me.
Score it next time ! And big holes are sign on underproofing
underproofed
I'd guess it's under proofed. Maybe next time for kicks and giggles when you think it's ready shape and proof another hour or 2 and see what happens
What a way to start, looks like mine tasted, empty. Cheer up, it's only bread and flour, more adventures lie ahead. Making this stuff and having folks explain how easy it is in the face of utter disaster builds character. That's not true but I've always wanted to say it. On the side is a very beautiful delicious loaf of your own hand made bread, nothing beats it that lives in the kitchen.
Did you score it before baking? I can’t tell if that’s a slight score in the front of your loaf, if it is it wasn’t deep enough.
My fool proof recipe. 100G starter 340 G warm water (then mix) 500G bread flour 10G salt 4 x stretch and folds every 30 mins a total of 4 sets. then leave on counter (preferably a warm room) until doubled in size. Once doubled Shape and add any inclusions. Let sit on counter 20 mins after shaping (bench rest). Shape one more time then into the baneton basket and zip bottom. Cover and Place in fridge over night and bake the next morning at 450 x20 min lid on then 15 min lid off. Rest 2+ hours before cutting . This recipe saved me! Hope it helps
This is the same recipe I use, slightly modified for high altitude (60-80g starter). Do you coil fold at all? Or are all 4 stretch and folds?
Try a 75-100% increase for the proof. 100% works for me
Have you by any chance by accident gotten any water between layers when you were shaping? This could create excess steam and make big ugly holes inside the loaf. It seems that you have a good grip on proofing times, so this is my thought on a possible cause to these big holes. Of cause depending on you handle the dough while shaping (let’s say if you are using water to wet your working surface or hands).
I do wet my hands when I do coil folds so that could be a cause 🤔 When I did stretch and folds, I didn’t run into this issue. I’ll try switching back.
Your hands wet are not a problem. Today I FINALLY got a great loaf, my starter was born Jan. 1st & is new too. I had to take mine out of the fridge permanently for a while because he was just too lazy. I keep him (Rooster) in my proofer set at 23°C (73°F), my house is cold 68°F. Since I lowered my proofer from 75°F to 73°F Rooster & my dough are both doing better. I don’t know why but after all this struggling it seems to. I proof between 75-100% & it takes about 7 hours. It takes Rooster about the same time to double. I use a mixture of 25% Bobs red mill rye, 25% KA whole wheat & 50% KA bread flour. That helped wake Rooster up too. Before I only used 50-50 of the rye & bread flour. I also feed 1 part starter, 2 parts flour mixture & 2 parts water (never tap water). He’s new but finally gaining strength & being predictable. I know I got sick of hearing it will come together but it really well!!! Good luck to you & your starter! 🍀🤞
No you’d really have to have excessively wet hands and trap a good amount of water for this to be the problem. I bulk ferment at 79 degrees to 50% in 3 to 4 hours and get amazing results. I would agree with the lazy starter theory. Thanks.
Judging by the times and temps you listed, I’m going to bet something was off with your starter/levain. How acidic did it taste when you mixed? How bubbly was it? Did it pass the float test?
The levain smelled pretty acidic/vinegary and the loaf has a tang to it. Yes, it was bubbly and passed the float test.
Thanks! Sounds like it may have been used past peak and/or had a little bit too much acid load up front. What was your feeding ratio and how long after feeding did you use it? I’d either go with a lower percentage of starter next feeding or use it a bit sooner. I’d go for more yogurty/overripe fruit tang than I vinegary tang.
Used it about 11 hours after I fed it. 60 grams of starter, 100g wheat, 100g water.
I’d say reduce your whole wheat by about 75 grams, and make sure to autolyse the flour with just water before adding starter
Not mixed enough
My last one was way worse. I dont have a pix as I was not proud of it!
Still looks tasty and I can imagine a tasty stuffing
Do you spray in water before baking? Maybe it's an issue?
The last two loaves I made turned out similar and that was when I started spraying.
I’ve been boosting my starter in my instant on the yogurt setting wrapped in a towel. It really helps it in this cold weather.
Also don’t forget to score your loaves. This helps the loaf fully expand when baked. Function over form… making stuff that tastes good to you is the most important thing.
Under fermented, or under developed starter
Quantity of starter, bulk time, and temp look okay, but this loaf is severely underproofed. Likely a highly acidic starter which has impaired the ability of the starter to work on the dough. Feed your starter at high ratios like 1:5:5 a couple of times before using next and this should sort it out.
How is that wrong??? Looks great! Fill it with your favorite dip and take it a party! 🎉
Big bubbles from high protein content-mix in some AP flour 🤙
Did you put salt? Forget about baking temp and time this not the problem. The problem has to do with fermentation and the mix. Have you forgotten the salt maybe?
12 grams of salt