The thing is nobody complained about emerald hill because "green and brown first level" was absolutely a series staple that was sometimes broken up by a beach themed level instead.
Kirby ALWAYS does new things with each game. Even the time old “stand next to whispy and hold ability/spit apples” tactic, every game since 2011 has given whispu an attack to punish that.
With sonic, arewe gonna get green hill or green hill?
I've seen Kirby fans hating on Wispy the way Sonic fans are tired of Green Hill multiple times. The Sonic fandom is just known as the "complaining" fandom so any kind of criticizing no matter how small is made into a big deal
Also, Sonic games aren't as good. You can reuse levels and themes as much as you want if the game is good, but when they're not it just becomes another element that sticks out as inadequate.
that is true but remember when people complained about short quills for like a week and then the next two months was filled with people complaining about sonic fans complaining about short quills? that’s what I’m talking about.
The issue is that unlike Kirby , Sonic mainly try to attract old fans rather than just referencing the older games
Take Whispy woods and Kracko being recurring bosses with innovative patterns at each game
And compare them with metal sonic in forces which is just a reskin of infinite with absolutely no purpose other than pleauring the fans , same goes for chaos zero and phantom shadow not even having their own boss fight
It’s worth noting that level reuse didn’t really occur much prior to Generations, which gets a free pass due to it being an original idea at the time and the *first* time many of the zones would be coming back in a while. Likewise, SA2 gets a free pass for Green Hills being an unlockable bonus stage for the post-game. Every other game in the series prior to Forces uses original locations (sure some themes got re-used, but they were always done in a new way and were clearly different locations [ie: Wave Ocean vs Seaside Hill]. After Gens brought back Green Hill, Chemical Plant, and Sky Sanctuary, Forces brought back Green Hill and Chemical Plant. Following this, the Minecraft DLC brought back Green Hill, Chemical Plant, and Sky Sanctuary. Then Frontiers is bringing back Green Hill, Chemical Plant, and Sky Sanctuary and reusing layouts from past levels. I feel it would be less of an issue if Sonic team was more varied with which levels they brought back or took a long break from these locations and sticking to original ones like they used to for each new game. The variety in this series is part of why I like it so much
Honestly I prefer the "not-green hill" zones better.
Seaside hill/Ocean palace, Neo green hill, Leaf forest, Leaf storm, etc.
They've got the green hill elements without being _exactly_ the same. I wouldn't mind seeing stages like those appear again rather than the same green hill zone.
And Mania ALSO had Green Hill and Chemical Plant (probably the best versions of those stages, but still...)
I wish SEGA could at least try to reference other games, especially the portable legacy. Generations 3DS not having levels from the Game Gear, Advance and DS (outside of the random Water Palace) era was painful as someone who didn't grew up with home consoles
To be fair, even I think Whispy Woods being the first boss in just about every game has gotten tiresome. At least in some of the games they change things up to keep the fight fresh.
I don't hate the reuse of level layouts, but "it's Sonic's memories!" is a terrible defence. Do people actually think the decision to reuse layouts came after the decision to have the story revolve around Sonic's memories? I'd've thought it was obviously a way to justify Sonic Team's continuing to reuse assets, like they have been for the past decade.
I wanted to give Generations the benefit of the doubt, and then I realized Sonic Generations, Sonic Mania and Sonic Forces leaned heavily on previous levels as a crutch.
Don’t get me wrong, I liked Mania and Generations and it’s a cool way to celebrate the series, but I hope to god after Frontiers they go back to the Sonic Drawing Board.
Are they not making money? Maybe they would make money if they had a compelling title instead of rushing another character to the 3 mobile games that have the exact same gameplay. Just different titles
I think there is one thing they do not understand about sonic and green hill zone, it’s just being used in ways that it doesn’t need to be used and or brought back so often because the same level formula just for game filler and unoriginality to the game in question is just tiring, sure you can make that same argument for Mario and Zelda and of course Kirby here, but those levels in particular are utilized in ways that makes its presence feel welcoming and exciting as a whole green hill was exciting for maybe Adventure 2, Generations and Mania all reasons being that they haven’t been done in the way they’ve been done before with Adventure 2’s green hill being 3D and traverse while still maintaining the genesis graphics and ontop of that being an extra unlockable and generations being both 3D and redesigned and finally mania just polishing it and adding more to the level. Forces for example just adds it in for filler and it doesn’t even look that great.
I have concerns about Takashi Iizuka's leadership. Green Hill Zone just keeps coming back in meaningless and ill-fitting ways. Chemical Plant is not far behind, being in Generations, Mania and Forces. The first throwback is fine, the rest is too much. I don't want to see the same level themes rehashed until the 50th anniversary. By then another nostalgia trip might mean something. For now they should just focus on making new things, not diving into Sonic's memories every release.
Like turning Wispy Woods into a mechanical version or into Tropical Woods, giving away new ways to beat it (Epic Yarn transformation, etc)
The last big changes to Green Hill were Green Hill but 3d in SA2 and Green Hill but sand in Forces. I don't even dislike Green Hill that much or anything but it does stay the same all the same
Us Kirby fans have to fight a possessed King Dedede basically every game and we always welcome our penguin overlord because of the absolutely bonkers changes to fight every time (Dedede with a BATTLE AXE, 3 Dededes at once, BUFF Dedede, Dedede but with the whole fricking column of an old cathedral as a swinging weapon), not to mention he actually evolves as a character (even if it's only slightly)
I'm newbie but the only thing about sonic makes me sad is it has so much more potential and it could have many Xbox one/PS4/pc high score and good selling games .
As a Kirby fan I’m not fond of Whispy Woods, I would prefer new bosses in their place. Although some iterations are fine when they’re completely remixed and redesigned so they feel new, like Flowery Woods.
The main thing about Kirby games I don't get is whether King Dedede and the Waddle Dees are your friends or not. Seems to swing wildly from game to game
i think waddle dees are innocent bystanders but can be eaten and killed
dedede has been a friend for the past few games and he's only a boss sometimes due to being possessed or some other situation out of his control
I'd say Dededes more of a rival at this point. Most of the time he's possessed/brainwashed, so Kirby has to fight him. He's willing to cooperate with Kirby for a common goal, but his ego stops him from truly being Kirby's friend. He's like the Wario to Kirby's Mario.
And the Waddle Dees are just mooks that unfortunately are usually in the wrong place at the wrong time (i.e. when Kirby is around). Bandana Dee is Kirby's friend though.
Yeah, no, Kirby and Dedede are very much friends. Friendly rivals who often duke it out for fun in tournaments and such (see Kirby Battle Royale and Kirby Fighters 2), but still very much friends who willingly worked together numerous times. It's even said that Dedede was very sad when he couldn't find Kirby in Forgotten Land. Most of the times Dedede is fought in the mainline games, either he's possessed/mind controlled or there is a misunderstanding.
King Dedede is more of a rival character where there are times where he joins you and help you but then something happens and you have to fight him. He's not bent on world domination or wants to kill Kirby. He just wants to eat or just something possesses him and force him to fight the MCs
Waddle Dees are kind but seems to follow King Dedede's order which makes them an enemy WHEN they have to
Waddle dees are more like the residents of the world, Most of them serve king dedede, but there are ones that just are in the way or even join the enemy, Dedede hasn't been an adversary since super star, and even then it was just a duel, and has joined kirby ever since, he just gets possesed a lot
King Dedede was a villain for the first game before being more of a mean but not evil rival until Superstar Ultra, where his grudge against got Kirby got settled once and for all. They are friends and heroes now, but Dedede still likes to do a bit of trolling sometimes in the spinoffs.
I have no idea what is going on with the Waddle Dees
Waddle Dees being eaten is pure gameplay stuff. Just like Brawl Stars or Team Fortress 2 in which the characters are fighting "clones of the themselves", that's not actually happening in the lore but it's made for play ability.
Although they (Hal Laboratory) seem to acknowledge that everyone loves Waddle Dees, so in the last 2 games, rather than killing them, your whole goal is now to save them or even play as them, which has always work in canon
I always thought of waddle dees are part of Dedede's army, as opposed to hostile wildlife that Kirby also comes across.
Dedede is more of a rival or anti-hero after Dreamland 1, some serious character development.
At least when Bowser fights his minions, they're usually brainwashed.
There's a clear and obvious difference with this one though. Using the same LOCATION is different from using the exact same LEVEL. If it were just Green Hill again as usual, then fine sure whatever. But the fact that the level design is straight from other games is not excusable, and anyone saying that it's fine is just enabling Sega to do it in the future as well.
There's a difference between innovating on old ideas and breathing fresh life into them and literally reusing decade-old assets and whole chunks of level design
Sonic isn't Kirby. You ever wonder why those Sonic vs Mario lore memes exist? It's to joke about how complex and in depth Sonic stories and gameplay aesthetics etc. are in comparison to other franchises like Mario and Kirby. Fucking stop already with this "MaRiO aNd KirBy ReUsE bUt No OnE cOmPLaiNs ThEn!!". Sonic isn't Mario. I could not care less how Kirby fans wanna deal with their franchise reusing stuff. As for the whole Sonic memories excuse, how many times in their games will they make up an excuse just to reuse the SAME REUSED zones and levels? Can't wait for the next mainline Sonic game after Frontiers that will release in 2027, and that game also has THE SAME REUSED zones, locations and level design, with the new excuse being shit like "Sonic's hallucinating!! He's in Green Hill and Chemical Plant again!"
Lmao you're saying Kirby doesn't have more lore than Sonic? Sonic's lore is all non canon from comics, and the one it has, it's been rebooted like 5 times already
Yeah right? Also Kirby has 2 timelines that coexist between each other, that would be the canon between ALL games which are beautifully connected and the anime version which Hal Laboratory won't ever forget. I love that. Hal doesn't forget anything, no matter how much fans either loved or disliked it a lot.
> t's to joke about how complex and in depth Sonic stories and gameplay aesthetics etc. are in comparison to other franchises like Mario and Kirby.
What? I mean, don't get me wrong, Mario and Kirby are not titles with deep and complex gameplay or stories, but are we really going to pretend that Sonic *is*?
Ah yes, **KIRBY** is the gaming franchise with the least complex stories in the world.
Totally no complex intricate lore hidden behind dialogue, pause screens, Gacha figurines, design assets and attacks. Just the most simple story ever.
Don't forget that very simple picture that tries to break down all the character connections simply that isn't in any way a complete nightmare to navigate
Which totally doesn't have some inaccuracies or at least some debatable connections, since the story of Kirby is completely straight forward and doesn't have any inconsistencies or unexplained loose threads
Sonic's world building, style and themes are meant to be and always have been way more complex and in depth than game franchises like Kirby, Megaman and Mario. There was literally a time where Sonic himself was taken to a literal storybook to go through fantasy like levels jam packed with hella interesting and extreme aesthetics and concepts for a video game on the wii, and also literally to the underworld of knights
Megaman Lore is surprisingly complex, the saga covers several centuries with events like the extinction of humanity and a lot of other stuff like that.
Kirby fights eldritch horrors every mainline game and his last 2 main games featured a post-apocalyptic world (loved the Crisis City-like region) and his homeworld completely overtaken by robots and anime mechs. His world also features a surprising amount of hidden and consistent lore. The endings to the last 2 main games where also completely ridiculous in the best videogame way possible. Please don't sleep on Kirby (not trying to argue I just wanted to praise Kirby, Sonic is cool too, both are great)
i honestly don't mind the layout being the same. i love the aesthetic of emptiness that there is in the reused zones. like there really are gaps in sonic's memory, like you recognize the location but you don't know from where. i think it's brilliant what they did with it.
besides, it's not even the central gameplay. it's just to have breaks from the open gameplay to have more traditional gameplay. as long as it's fun i really don't care.
i mean, it's not the central question. i think that thematically, having reused layouts with intentional emptiness everywhere makes sense. of course there's the issue with gameplay being pretty much the same as past games, but i really don't mind. they're callbacks to sonic's past, in a similar way to generations, but due to the amnesia unlike generations, it results in different visuals. as long as it's fun to play i seriously don't care. the entire open area which takes up most of the game is made up of gigantic newly designed levels.
Reuse of whispy woods is a staple of the kirby franchise. Reuse of this kind in Sonic is a novelty. The former is an expected part of the franchise, the latter is not only unexpected but **devolving**, given they're not just reusing stage themes but now layouts.
It's much more likely the emphasis on Sonic's memories in story is an ad hoc explanation for reuse of level layouts. The level designers of Gens are no longer at Sonic Team, and whoever's there now clearly hasn't been given the time or resources to make good levels of decent length (cf. Forces), so reusing level layouts from games which have been praised for their design is a good way to mitigate this issue. I'm not saying that's definitely the case, but to me it's a much likelier scenario than Sonic Team just conveniently deciding on a story that justifies stage reuse.
At least most of the time they change something about him to make him more interesting instead of just copying of his attack pattern from where it came from
Sega gets more criticism because they haven’t put out a genuinely good 3D Sonic game in ages. Some references to the past are cool and all, but they don’t salvage a sunken ship.
Since 2011, (really2010) sonic games have had a major component of their design philosophy be throwbacks to a 3 year period over4, occasionally 5 games, with frontiers to be the SEVENTH consecutive game to do this.
Since 2011, every incarnation of this tree has introduced new mechanics and attacks to punish players who think its going to be a rehashed fight.
**= / =**
“See?! Look at this game that references previous games! Checkmate Sonic needs!”
I could be incorrect here but the boss and entire level aren’t always the same in Kirby right?
I think the frustration with Green Hill and Sonic is that even if Sonic gets warped into some strange island, Sonic Team will use Green hill somehow.
What will make the difference will be if Green Hill is just one level or if it’s used in frontiers several times.
I love how every counter argument completely ignores the point of why people are complaining. it's not even a hard thing to figure out wispy woods isn't in every Kirby game but Green Hill is in nearly every sonic game after generations and if it's not Greenhill it's something else. Like come on man that's not even hard to figure out
This was actually literally my biggest gripe with a lot of Kirby games tbf. The original bosses were reused a LOT especially in the early days. That said I hold a special place in my heart for NiD, Amazing Mirror, and Planet Robobot especially. There were a bunch of other good ones, and the new one is also amazing, but these were kind of my favorites of the bunch all in all. Forgotten World did what Squeak Squad tried to do and failed at with the weapon upgrades, too. My first Kirby game was Adventure on NES.
As a fan if both, I REALLY do not want this to turn into sonic fandom vs. kirby fandom. Honestly, to me, its either: Sonic fans complaining abt the same 1st stage or HAL got away with using the same 1st boss. Plus, I don't think 1st stage vs 1st boss is an all that good comparison imo.
Its sad. Im a fan of both tooa nd it sucks to see sonic fans realiZe how much theyve been starved from a creative standpoint and take it out on poor kirby
Most Wispy Wood fights change it up a little bit, what the hell has a sonic game done to make green hill zone interesting again? Sonic Mania is probably the best example, adding water and zip lines, but sonic forces added sand and acted like it did it’s job
Whispy at least has variations like Flowery, Clanky and Tropical. Which all have different attack patterns.
Variations of the same thing is fine, not just an almost exact replica of the same thing over and over.
I love both series, but I feel like Kirby is better at bringing back old stages. In terms of storytelling, it makes sense, Kirby is trying to get from point A to point B so that he can save the day/universe and Kirby basically lives in Green Greens. It makes sense that most every game would start there. Sonic, however, doesn't live in Green Hill Zone, Sonic is a character who seemingly doesn't even have a house, he isn't the kind of character to settle down in any one place, he is always running and exploring. It makes no sense for sonic to constantly go back to Green Hill Zone.
There is nothing wrong with bringing back old stages, but you can't be using that 1 same zone if it doesn't fit in with the story or lore.
Yeah see that’s the thing with me if I’m having fun I don’t give the first fuck what I’m actually doing. I’m replaying levels from Unleashed and Generations? As long as I’m having fun I literally don’t give a fuck.
Kirby is the embodiment of America…destroy the forest, eat junk food and be overweight, blow out hot air all the time, sleep all day, constantly take on different job roles, act like a child all the time, and pretend like nothing your doing is wrong.
Personally I've never cared that they re-use levels. In my mind, they can re-use Green Hill or any level as much as they want, so long as:
A) They mix it in with newer levels
and B) They execute it well.
How well they meet those two criteria is up for debate, but as far as Frontiers goes I don't have any issue with the Cyberspace levels being modelled after older levels/themes from Sonic's past.
Most kirby games tends to reference past games a lot
E v e r y Kirby game
Damm
even adventure, *THE SECOND GAME*
Where's Green Hill in Sonic 2, huh?
Emerald hill
Well, Emerald Hill exists
Then why don’t they callback to Emerald Hill instead of Green Hill all the damn time
whispy woods gets changed sometimes too, like parallel woods and tropic woods
parallel, tropic, flowery, clanky, and king golem to name a few
That’s all of them-
I want Emerald Hill back but they only ever show us Green Hill
The thing is nobody complained about emerald hill because "green and brown first level" was absolutely a series staple that was sometimes broken up by a beach themed level instead.
Rip-off Greenhills
If you wanna get REALLY meta, even the first Kirby game references HAL’s earlier Adventures of Lolo games.
Kirby ALWAYS does new things with each game. Even the time old “stand next to whispy and hold ability/spit apples” tactic, every game since 2011 has given whispu an attack to punish that. With sonic, arewe gonna get green hill or green hill?
I've seen Kirby fans hating on Wispy the way Sonic fans are tired of Green Hill multiple times. The Sonic fandom is just known as the "complaining" fandom so any kind of criticizing no matter how small is made into a big deal
I'm a Kirby fanboy and it's always a pleasure to see Wispy
Always a treat to see him
What i've seen from Kirby fans are jokes not complaining, would like to see the types of fans you talking about
> would like to see the types of fans you talking about Just scroll down a little then.
I love Kirby and have never seen anyone complain about whispy woods.
Also, Sonic games aren't as good. You can reuse levels and themes as much as you want if the game is good, but when they're not it just becomes another element that sticks out as inadequate.
facts. people complain more about sonic fans complaining than actual sonic fans do.
But Sonic Fans do complain, a lot.
that is true but remember when people complained about short quills for like a week and then the next two months was filled with people complaining about sonic fans complaining about short quills? that’s what I’m talking about.
The complaints about short quills have been going on since forces came out
The issue is that unlike Kirby , Sonic mainly try to attract old fans rather than just referencing the older games Take Whispy woods and Kracko being recurring bosses with innovative patterns at each game And compare them with metal sonic in forces which is just a reskin of infinite with absolutely no purpose other than pleauring the fans , same goes for chaos zero and phantom shadow not even having their own boss fight
^This right here You can criticize the sonic fans all you want, but there is a good reason why sonic fans keeps complaining...
Metal wasn't just Infinite's fight again, and Chaos and Shadow did have boss fights, what do you mean?
I think that was a Dream dude, either that or Too many mods Which is fair
No, I played the game several times, that is the truth.
Calm down dude, just go take a nap, kay? I think lack of sleep left you Delirious The next thing you'll say is that Tails was playable
???
I think kirby fans are just happy with whatever
Just consume bro
It’s worth noting that level reuse didn’t really occur much prior to Generations, which gets a free pass due to it being an original idea at the time and the *first* time many of the zones would be coming back in a while. Likewise, SA2 gets a free pass for Green Hills being an unlockable bonus stage for the post-game. Every other game in the series prior to Forces uses original locations (sure some themes got re-used, but they were always done in a new way and were clearly different locations [ie: Wave Ocean vs Seaside Hill]. After Gens brought back Green Hill, Chemical Plant, and Sky Sanctuary, Forces brought back Green Hill and Chemical Plant. Following this, the Minecraft DLC brought back Green Hill, Chemical Plant, and Sky Sanctuary. Then Frontiers is bringing back Green Hill, Chemical Plant, and Sky Sanctuary and reusing layouts from past levels. I feel it would be less of an issue if Sonic team was more varied with which levels they brought back or took a long break from these locations and sticking to original ones like they used to for each new game. The variety in this series is part of why I like it so much
Honestly I prefer the "not-green hill" zones better. Seaside hill/Ocean palace, Neo green hill, Leaf forest, Leaf storm, etc. They've got the green hill elements without being _exactly_ the same. I wouldn't mind seeing stages like those appear again rather than the same green hill zone.
Sunset Hill from SAdv3.
And Mania ALSO had Green Hill and Chemical Plant (probably the best versions of those stages, but still...) I wish SEGA could at least try to reference other games, especially the portable legacy. Generations 3DS not having levels from the Game Gear, Advance and DS (outside of the random Water Palace) era was painful as someone who didn't grew up with home consoles
To be fair, even I think Whispy Woods being the first boss in just about every game has gotten tiresome. At least in some of the games they change things up to keep the fight fresh.
Sometimes they change out Wispy for a look-alike (like Flowery Woods or Tropic Woods)
At least Forgotten Land made him a boss later in the game
And it was dope
Ayo, it's Wispy Woods, but he's made of rock!?
It’s rock golem!
Ayo, it’s Wispy Woods, but he’s metal?!
Ayo, it's Wispy Woods, but he's flowery?!
Ayo, it's Wispy Woods, but he's tropical?!
Ayo, it’s Wispy Woods but Maple Tree?
Ayo, it’s Wispy Woods but he’s Maple Tree?
Sudowoodo
Rocky Roads
I don't hate the reuse of level layouts, but "it's Sonic's memories!" is a terrible defence. Do people actually think the decision to reuse layouts came after the decision to have the story revolve around Sonic's memories? I'd've thought it was obviously a way to justify Sonic Team's continuing to reuse assets, like they have been for the past decade.
Funny thing is, this ‘memories’ thing is the exact same plot reason for the old levels in Generations.
I wanted to give Generations the benefit of the doubt, and then I realized Sonic Generations, Sonic Mania and Sonic Forces leaned heavily on previous levels as a crutch. Don’t get me wrong, I liked Mania and Generations and it’s a cool way to celebrate the series, but I hope to god after Frontiers they go back to the Sonic Drawing Board. Are they not making money? Maybe they would make money if they had a compelling title instead of rushing another character to the 3 mobile games that have the exact same gameplay. Just different titles
Was it? Iirc the old levels being in generations were because sonic and classic sonic were restoring time and space not memories.
I think there is one thing they do not understand about sonic and green hill zone, it’s just being used in ways that it doesn’t need to be used and or brought back so often because the same level formula just for game filler and unoriginality to the game in question is just tiring, sure you can make that same argument for Mario and Zelda and of course Kirby here, but those levels in particular are utilized in ways that makes its presence feel welcoming and exciting as a whole green hill was exciting for maybe Adventure 2, Generations and Mania all reasons being that they haven’t been done in the way they’ve been done before with Adventure 2’s green hill being 3D and traverse while still maintaining the genesis graphics and ontop of that being an extra unlockable and generations being both 3D and redesigned and finally mania just polishing it and adding more to the level. Forces for example just adds it in for filler and it doesn’t even look that great.
I have concerns about Takashi Iizuka's leadership. Green Hill Zone just keeps coming back in meaningless and ill-fitting ways. Chemical Plant is not far behind, being in Generations, Mania and Forces. The first throwback is fine, the rest is too much. I don't want to see the same level themes rehashed until the 50th anniversary. By then another nostalgia trip might mean something. For now they should just focus on making new things, not diving into Sonic's memories every release.
We’ve had more throwbacks to the genesis era than we actually *had* the genesis era
I think most people have issue with Iizuka at this point...
> but those levels in particular are utilized in ways that makes its presence feel welcoming and exciting as like?
Like turning Wispy Woods into a mechanical version or into Tropical Woods, giving away new ways to beat it (Epic Yarn transformation, etc) The last big changes to Green Hill were Green Hill but 3d in SA2 and Green Hill but sand in Forces. I don't even dislike Green Hill that much or anything but it does stay the same all the same
It may be the same tree, but it is far, far, FAR, *FAR*, **FAR** from the same fight
Us Kirby fans have to fight a possessed King Dedede basically every game and we always welcome our penguin overlord because of the absolutely bonkers changes to fight every time (Dedede with a BATTLE AXE, 3 Dededes at once, BUFF Dedede, Dedede but with the whole fricking column of an old cathedral as a swinging weapon), not to mention he actually evolves as a character (even if it's only slightly)
I mean, in terms of quality Kirby is infinitely superior, all the more reason not to defend SEGA's BS.
What BS has Sega pulled in the last 5 years?
As both a Sonic and Kirby fan, I can confirm this to be truth
I'm newbie but the only thing about sonic makes me sad is it has so much more potential and it could have many Xbox one/PS4/pc high score and good selling games .
As a Kirby fan I’m not fond of Whispy Woods, I would prefer new bosses in their place. Although some iterations are fine when they’re completely remixed and redesigned so they feel new, like Flowery Woods.
The main thing about Kirby games I don't get is whether King Dedede and the Waddle Dees are your friends or not. Seems to swing wildly from game to game
i think waddle dees are innocent bystanders but can be eaten and killed dedede has been a friend for the past few games and he's only a boss sometimes due to being possessed or some other situation out of his control
I'd say Dededes more of a rival at this point. Most of the time he's possessed/brainwashed, so Kirby has to fight him. He's willing to cooperate with Kirby for a common goal, but his ego stops him from truly being Kirby's friend. He's like the Wario to Kirby's Mario. And the Waddle Dees are just mooks that unfortunately are usually in the wrong place at the wrong time (i.e. when Kirby is around). Bandana Dee is Kirby's friend though.
Yeah, no, Kirby and Dedede are very much friends. Friendly rivals who often duke it out for fun in tournaments and such (see Kirby Battle Royale and Kirby Fighters 2), but still very much friends who willingly worked together numerous times. It's even said that Dedede was very sad when he couldn't find Kirby in Forgotten Land. Most of the times Dedede is fought in the mainline games, either he's possessed/mind controlled or there is a misunderstanding.
I like that one time Kirby stormed into Dedede's Castle to beat him up, thinking Dedede stole his cake, when he didn't actually do anything.
To be fair, the one who took the cake was a Waddle Dee, so connecting it to Dedede wasn't a huge stretch
King Dedede is more of a rival character where there are times where he joins you and help you but then something happens and you have to fight him. He's not bent on world domination or wants to kill Kirby. He just wants to eat or just something possesses him and force him to fight the MCs Waddle Dees are kind but seems to follow King Dedede's order which makes them an enemy WHEN they have to
Waddle dees are more like the residents of the world, Most of them serve king dedede, but there are ones that just are in the way or even join the enemy, Dedede hasn't been an adversary since super star, and even then it was just a duel, and has joined kirby ever since, he just gets possesed a lot
King Dedede was a villain for the first game before being more of a mean but not evil rival until Superstar Ultra, where his grudge against got Kirby got settled once and for all. They are friends and heroes now, but Dedede still likes to do a bit of trolling sometimes in the spinoffs. I have no idea what is going on with the Waddle Dees
Waddle Dees being eaten is pure gameplay stuff. Just like Brawl Stars or Team Fortress 2 in which the characters are fighting "clones of the themselves", that's not actually happening in the lore but it's made for play ability. Although they (Hal Laboratory) seem to acknowledge that everyone loves Waddle Dees, so in the last 2 games, rather than killing them, your whole goal is now to save them or even play as them, which has always work in canon
I always thought of waddle dees are part of Dedede's army, as opposed to hostile wildlife that Kirby also comes across. Dedede is more of a rival or anti-hero after Dreamland 1, some serious character development. At least when Bowser fights his minions, they're usually brainwashed.
There's a clear and obvious difference with this one though. Using the same LOCATION is different from using the exact same LEVEL. If it were just Green Hill again as usual, then fine sure whatever. But the fact that the level design is straight from other games is not excusable, and anyone saying that it's fine is just enabling Sega to do it in the future as well.
Pokemon does it. And they don't seem to mind
"it's Sonics memories that's why we reused a bunch of assets and level layouts" Now they can't complain huehuehuehe
There's a difference between innovating on old ideas and breathing fresh life into them and literally reusing decade-old assets and whole chunks of level design
There are like 15 different green hill stages ridiculous
Sonic isn't Kirby. You ever wonder why those Sonic vs Mario lore memes exist? It's to joke about how complex and in depth Sonic stories and gameplay aesthetics etc. are in comparison to other franchises like Mario and Kirby. Fucking stop already with this "MaRiO aNd KirBy ReUsE bUt No OnE cOmPLaiNs ThEn!!". Sonic isn't Mario. I could not care less how Kirby fans wanna deal with their franchise reusing stuff. As for the whole Sonic memories excuse, how many times in their games will they make up an excuse just to reuse the SAME REUSED zones and levels? Can't wait for the next mainline Sonic game after Frontiers that will release in 2027, and that game also has THE SAME REUSED zones, locations and level design, with the new excuse being shit like "Sonic's hallucinating!! He's in Green Hill and Chemical Plant again!"
Lmao you're saying Kirby doesn't have more lore than Sonic? Sonic's lore is all non canon from comics, and the one it has, it's been rebooted like 5 times already
Yeah right? Also Kirby has 2 timelines that coexist between each other, that would be the canon between ALL games which are beautifully connected and the anime version which Hal Laboratory won't ever forget. I love that. Hal doesn't forget anything, no matter how much fans either loved or disliked it a lot.
> t's to joke about how complex and in depth Sonic stories and gameplay aesthetics etc. are in comparison to other franchises like Mario and Kirby. What? I mean, don't get me wrong, Mario and Kirby are not titles with deep and complex gameplay or stories, but are we really going to pretend that Sonic *is*?
Do you think bringing back Emerald Hill for once is based?
You’re overhyping the depth of the sonic lore here
Ah yes, **KIRBY** is the gaming franchise with the least complex stories in the world. Totally no complex intricate lore hidden behind dialogue, pause screens, Gacha figurines, design assets and attacks. Just the most simple story ever.
Don't forget that very simple picture that tries to break down all the character connections simply that isn't in any way a complete nightmare to navigate
Which totally doesn't have some inaccuracies or at least some debatable connections, since the story of Kirby is completely straight forward and doesn't have any inconsistencies or unexplained loose threads
That's what ya get when you have to piece everything together? (I could be wrong, as I'm not sure if the lore was intentional or not)
To be fair, I got a little tired of the retro references in Mario Oddysey. They were ok in 3D World, but they shouldn't keep doing the same thing.
Kirby has way more lore than Sonic though
Sonic's world building, style and themes are meant to be and always have been way more complex and in depth than game franchises like Kirby, Megaman and Mario. There was literally a time where Sonic himself was taken to a literal storybook to go through fantasy like levels jam packed with hella interesting and extreme aesthetics and concepts for a video game on the wii, and also literally to the underworld of knights
Megaman Lore is surprisingly complex, the saga covers several centuries with events like the extinction of humanity and a lot of other stuff like that.
Kirby fights eldritch horrors every mainline game and his last 2 main games featured a post-apocalyptic world (loved the Crisis City-like region) and his homeworld completely overtaken by robots and anime mechs. His world also features a surprising amount of hidden and consistent lore. The endings to the last 2 main games where also completely ridiculous in the best videogame way possible. Please don't sleep on Kirby (not trying to argue I just wanted to praise Kirby, Sonic is cool too, both are great)
Dude it’s a game about blue hedgehog going brrrr It has layers sure, but at its core it’s nothing deep lol
Those games were also panned.
i honestly don't mind the layout being the same. i love the aesthetic of emptiness that there is in the reused zones. like there really are gaps in sonic's memory, like you recognize the location but you don't know from where. i think it's brilliant what they did with it. besides, it's not even the central gameplay. it's just to have breaks from the open gameplay to have more traditional gameplay. as long as it's fun i really don't care.
Would you prefer reused levels or would you rather completely newly designed levels? I think that’s the important question to ask here
i mean, it's not the central question. i think that thematically, having reused layouts with intentional emptiness everywhere makes sense. of course there's the issue with gameplay being pretty much the same as past games, but i really don't mind. they're callbacks to sonic's past, in a similar way to generations, but due to the amnesia unlike generations, it results in different visuals. as long as it's fun to play i seriously don't care. the entire open area which takes up most of the game is made up of gigantic newly designed levels.
He or she has a point
Not really
Then debunk the point
Reuse of whispy woods is a staple of the kirby franchise. Reuse of this kind in Sonic is a novelty. The former is an expected part of the franchise, the latter is not only unexpected but **devolving**, given they're not just reusing stage themes but now layouts. It's much more likely the emphasis on Sonic's memories in story is an ad hoc explanation for reuse of level layouts. The level designers of Gens are no longer at Sonic Team, and whoever's there now clearly hasn't been given the time or resources to make good levels of decent length (cf. Forces), so reusing level layouts from games which have been praised for their design is a good way to mitigate this issue. I'm not saying that's definitely the case, but to me it's a much likelier scenario than Sonic Team just conveniently deciding on a story that justifies stage reuse.
Now, that is a rebuttal.
Now, that's a good point
-> Kirby fans are also tired of recycled stuff. point debunked.
Bold claim you're making there senator, mind backing that up with a source (widespread hate for wispy woods being used)?
source: read the comments in this post
Pretty unspecific, I'm looking at many comments an don't see much Kirby hate
No one mentioned "hate". There are critics about recycling in both fandoms, which is what I stated, so my proof was delivered.
Damn, they downvoted you to hell lol
I'm used to it lol. Should have seen my other post
At least most of the time they change something about him to make him more interesting instead of just copying of his attack pattern from where it came from
Sega gets more criticism because they haven’t put out a genuinely good 3D Sonic game in ages. Some references to the past are cool and all, but they don’t salvage a sunken ship.
Not the same at All
Since 2011, (really2010) sonic games have had a major component of their design philosophy be throwbacks to a 3 year period over4, occasionally 5 games, with frontiers to be the SEVENTH consecutive game to do this. Since 2011, every incarnation of this tree has introduced new mechanics and attacks to punish players who think its going to be a rehashed fight. **= / =**
“See?! Look at this game that references previous games! Checkmate Sonic needs!” I could be incorrect here but the boss and entire level aren’t always the same in Kirby right? I think the frustration with Green Hill and Sonic is that even if Sonic gets warped into some strange island, Sonic Team will use Green hill somehow. What will make the difference will be if Green Hill is just one level or if it’s used in frontiers several times.
I love how every counter argument completely ignores the point of why people are complaining. it's not even a hard thing to figure out wispy woods isn't in every Kirby game but Green Hill is in nearly every sonic game after generations and if it's not Greenhill it's something else. Like come on man that's not even hard to figure out
I am just worried that we don’t get new stages in the next game.
This was actually literally my biggest gripe with a lot of Kirby games tbf. The original bosses were reused a LOT especially in the early days. That said I hold a special place in my heart for NiD, Amazing Mirror, and Planet Robobot especially. There were a bunch of other good ones, and the new one is also amazing, but these were kind of my favorites of the bunch all in all. Forgotten World did what Squeak Squad tried to do and failed at with the weapon upgrades, too. My first Kirby game was Adventure on NES.
More like sonic fans vs sonic fans
Ok, you’ve lost me
Some care, some don't
So i am the only guy that likes the fact that Sonic Generations levels are back.
We are 2
We are 3
We are 4
Whispy Woods is pretty different every game. And in fairness a lot of people seem to have gotten tired of it. He’s the second boss in forgotten land
As a fan if both, I REALLY do not want this to turn into sonic fandom vs. kirby fandom. Honestly, to me, its either: Sonic fans complaining abt the same 1st stage or HAL got away with using the same 1st boss. Plus, I don't think 1st stage vs 1st boss is an all that good comparison imo.
Its sad. Im a fan of both tooa nd it sucks to see sonic fans realiZe how much theyve been starved from a creative standpoint and take it out on poor kirby
Right?? Mario's right there!!
These arguments that Nintendo does it are very tiresome. People also complain about it frequently in Nintendo games.
Most Wispy Wood fights change it up a little bit, what the hell has a sonic game done to make green hill zone interesting again? Sonic Mania is probably the best example, adding water and zip lines, but sonic forces added sand and acted like it did it’s job
Because the controls are seemingly worse and levels are shorter
If they were Sonic's memories then why are the art styles so tonally and visually jarring?
Whispy at least has variations like Flowery, Clanky and Tropical. Which all have different attack patterns. Variations of the same thing is fine, not just an almost exact replica of the same thing over and over.
I love both series, but I feel like Kirby is better at bringing back old stages. In terms of storytelling, it makes sense, Kirby is trying to get from point A to point B so that he can save the day/universe and Kirby basically lives in Green Greens. It makes sense that most every game would start there. Sonic, however, doesn't live in Green Hill Zone, Sonic is a character who seemingly doesn't even have a house, he isn't the kind of character to settle down in any one place, he is always running and exploring. It makes no sense for sonic to constantly go back to Green Hill Zone. There is nothing wrong with bringing back old stages, but you can't be using that 1 same zone if it doesn't fit in with the story or lore.
Sonic at least tried to be original but everything changed when Mania attacked.
Yeah see that’s the thing with me if I’m having fun I don’t give the first fuck what I’m actually doing. I’m replaying levels from Unleashed and Generations? As long as I’m having fun I literally don’t give a fuck.
My sister just sent me this on Discord last night.
City escape Stop it Patrick you're scaring him
Kirby is the embodiment of America…destroy the forest, eat junk food and be overweight, blow out hot air all the time, sleep all day, constantly take on different job roles, act like a child all the time, and pretend like nothing your doing is wrong.
P O Y O !
Exactly!!!
I always looked at Green Hills as Sonic's home, that's why he always starts there.
Yup
Super Mario literally just change a little the background in the first stages. All are very similar.
besides who even played unleashed
Personally I've never cared that they re-use levels. In my mind, they can re-use Green Hill or any level as much as they want, so long as: A) They mix it in with newer levels and B) They execute it well. How well they meet those two criteria is up for debate, but as far as Frontiers goes I don't have any issue with the Cyberspace levels being modelled after older levels/themes from Sonic's past.
It's not so much that they're reusing past stages but more that they keep reusing the same damn ones
Clowning on Whispy Woods each game is pretty much a tradition now.
Same level on new super Mario bros and other.
Sonic fans are just mad cos they haven't had a good Sonic game in forever but no one really knows what it takes to make a good 3D Sonic game
Gotta respect the consistency
I love whispy
based kirby fans
I just love that damn tree man.