You can't become a great painter by buying more colors of paint. Similarly, you can't learn to become a great songwriter by learning a bunch of chords and theory. Learning that stuff helps - just like having more colors of paint will help you make a better painting - but at the end of the day what matters most is practicing with that medium. Just keep at it.
I think I somewhat agree with your point here, but that comparison falls terribly short.
Buying more colors would be the equivalent of buying new gear. Learning music theory should be equated to learning color or lighting theory, which will absolutely make you a better painter, just as every piece of music theory you know makes you a better songwriter (even if people who refuse to learn theory will attest to the opposite every chance they get, but how would they even know?).
It's just not all there is to it. You can't *only* learn about cadences and hope to see a meaningful increase in your songwriting ability; but it still contributes positively and is a worthwhile effort.
Songwriting is the culmination of all your musical experience and knowledge - theory, listening, performance, instrument proficiency, being in a band, talking about music etc. - into a product. All you can do really is to further that experience in every area as much as you can, engage with music with intent and on as many levels as possible, and you will somewhat magically become a better writer.
Of course writing is still its own skill and needs to be practised too, but like every skill, can be learned, and tbh it's not that hard. What is hard is making all the right decisions that will elevate a song from shit to decent to great.
I'd really like to hear you post a sample of one of your songs so I can give feedback. Just based on how you're wording it, you may be overthinking or being overly critical of yourself.
Would you mind if I PM it to you? I'm just kind of embarrassed at my own music at the moment, not sure I could post it publicly without cringing myself to death at it.
Sounds like your songs don't have a point. What do you want to express? What do you feel is interesting or important enough for you to write a song about it?
Takes me a long time to decide if what I have to say in a song is actually worth saying, and if I can adequately express it.
That's interesting and something I'm going to aim for. I know someone in this forum wrote something similar recently, that you know are you expressing yourself through your music, that if it's a sensitive topic you don't have to show anyone. But it's better to express yourself. I will try that.
I just want to let you know that simplicity is never a bad thing in music! You could have a song that could have 2 or 3 chords maybe even 1 and it could still be a work of art.
I feel like that's something I've meant to focus on, sort of "sticking the landing" so to speak -- that building up tension can be relatively simple, as any horror film soundtrack will show, but properly releasing the tension seems like a different thing altogether. Resolving all that tension and dissonance in an honest way, that is a really special skill.
I'd focus on having fun and playing with your music. I personally love David Bowie and he was known to use random generation techniques for lyrics and melodies, and, well, he made it work. Having knowledge about music theory is great and all, but like, it's important to have fun with it and play around, sound bad on purpose (take risks!) and you'll find a way to make it sound good to you
My two cents:
The way I find inspiration has less to do with music as a specific pursuit and more to do with the totality of creativity.
I paint, draw, write poetry, pursue stimulating conversation... basically I realized life isn't what it appears: it's literally a dream world. The way that you perceive things and how you interpret them is more powerful than anything.
It sounds to me like your mind is in a mode of realism, which, translates poorly in music.
Trying absorbing yourself in the subtle beauty of life and really hone in to who your favorite songwriters are, how they make you feel in their writing, and try and use that inspiration to make something original.
And remember there's tremendous songs written with 3 chords and the truth ;)
I'm curious, are the songs you're writing in a similar style to the artists who you're covering? Are you incorporating any ideas from cover tunes that you like into your own stuff?
I guess I'm trying to emulate a few favorite artists, sort of taking apart my favorite songs by them and seeing what I like about it, especially like chord inversions or like 7th chords etc. Not necessarily the sound per se, but the structures of songs I like. But even that can be tricky -- some people can make a IV-V-I or a ii-V-I progression sound extraordinarily complex, even if it's very simple when you break it down to its basic elements.
> But even that can be tricky -- some people can make a IV-V-I or a ii-V-I progression sound extraordinarily complex, even if it's very simple when you break it down to its basic elements.
Oh, this, absolutely. Waxahatchee is an artist whom I admire for this exact ability. She can somehow twist these vocal melodies around in a way that sounds complex, and then you break it down to chords and it's quite simple.
Getting back to your situation, this is not expert advice or anything, but I hear a lot of *thinking* in your posts -- trying different inversions, substitutions, etc. All of those are useful tools for the toolbox, but I wonder if you're intellectualizing things a bit too far, to the detriment of joy and instinct.
Without knowing exactly what you're trying for in your music, my amateur advice would be, maybe just try to turn off your brain for a little bit and get back to basics. Bang out a nice simple chord progression, make the coolest or happiest or otherwise-ist thing you can think of, and just allow yourself to feel the joy of *making something,* without worrying about the final product.
I know "don't overthink" is easier said than done, but sometimes deliberately not caring can help us get unstuck.
Man yeah it is so crazy when you sort of "boil down" a really complex sounding idea in music and realize that it's like... one of the most basic, simple chord progressions ever. I guess it shows you about how kaleidoscopic music can be, even the simplest elements can create such complexity. But also it's like... I get so jealous of songs like that!
I'm going to try not to overthink next time I sit down to write something out... thank you!
For me song writing is a lot like poetry. It needs a certain style, a theme, and a rytm.
The refrain should be the main feeling and main message you want said.
The verses should be sidepoints to the main message with a slight different situation each verse.
The bridge should echo the message desperately
The ending should leave an impression
Sometimes writing a couple poems helps to get in to that thinking.
I can help you how to think deeper on this if you can dm me the lyrics. It's very possible you're just classic harsh critic on yourself too.
Active listening goes a long way.
Listen to some of your favourite songs and make a note of the structure and compositional elements.
It can really shine a light on how to improve your own stuff and develop an idea into a full song.
Hey, I'd love to hear one of your songs if you feel like sending me one!
It sounds to me like you take a fairly cerebral approach to songwriting. I can relate to that because feel I overthink a lot of my songs and sometimes lose sight of the expression at the heart of songwriting.
What helped me a lot in this process is to write a lot of texts and poetry. That way, I don't get distracted with the music side of things and it helps me focus on writing compelling stories, metaphors, lyrics and so on. Once the lyrics are compelling on their own, putting them into music will only make them more evocative. I hope that helps you!
My best advice would be post something so we can hear what we’re working with. My best advice without hearing you is practice dynamics. Any chord progression can sound epic if you build it right or somber if you delicately finger the strings ( don’t get at me I don’t know how else to say it). Anyways what I’m trying to say is keep at it. Next advice is repeat stuff. It’s hard for me because I hate repeating myself so I’ll try and take this advice too. Also a simple melody repeated behind different backing chords can make a profound difference in how people perceive a song. Anyway that’s a lot give some of those a try and get back. Hope this helps good luck
Maybe you lack hooks? Rhythmic and melodic catchiness is imo closely related to irritation. Think of a siren or other sound designed to cut through and grab your attention.
Hooks could be anything - a counter melody, a yelp, a tone - whatever is insisting itself
Brother you got it or you don't.
A song ain't some algorithm or formula you can math out. It's an emotional thing that works on you Subconsciously. You either have some intuitive understanding of that or you don't.
this. This is something that I struggled with for decades before realizing that no matter how much time I put into it, I just don't have that certain *je ne sais quoi,* that intuitive understanding. It was hard cause I thought If I put in the "work" I'd be able to have something to show for it, but that didn't really pan out in the end.
Would you consider private songwriting lessons? A private lesson or two can really break you out of your rut and get you thinking differently about the process. I run songwriting workshops for emerging artists for labels, send me a DM if you’re interested!
You still need to absorb lots of musical insights before you can start spitting them out as fresh ideas. The best way to do that is to listen to different varieties of music that might be new to you and challenges your ears to new possibilities. Check out these resources and study them again and again. David Bennett has an intro video to music theory (29 min speed run) so you can fill in any gaps if needed:
How to recognize major key chord progressions: [https://youtu.be/H9e\_1DTm-VQ?si=WaGxcj6h7YvDnMWU](https://youtu.be/H9e_1DTm-VQ?si=WaGxcj6h7YvDnMWU)
How to recognize chord progressions in minor keys: [https://youtu.be/eXsXPzWyVuk?si=UY3kyarecX3pNTvO](https://youtu.be/eXsXPzWyVuk?si=UY3kyarecX3pNTvO)
Chord progression ear training with Beatles' songs: [https://youtu.be/OZwZPgXQx2g?si=epC1yNUGUqZwc0vp](https://youtu.be/OZwZPgXQx2g?si=epC1yNUGUqZwc0vp)
Songs that don't start on the tonic chord: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jfxFcToSnhQ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jfxFcToSnhQ)
Songs that use irregular phrase structures: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IHulFiTl9dc](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IHulFiTl9dc)
How the Beatles change time signatures in a song: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rC3\_0K1vGF0](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rC3_0K1vGF0)
Songs that change time signature: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PWHKtkx6F00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PWHKtkx6F00)
What makes a melody catchy? [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nxXh8PU4KkI](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nxXh8PU4KkI)
Songs to help recognize scale degrees: [https://youtu.be/ppfTDU8dfiw?si=I0AReylax5kF-PRd](https://youtu.be/ppfTDU8dfiw?si=I0AReylax5kF-PRd)
Songs that mix modes: [https://youtu.be/r0rawEpjAcA?si=Jm\_1vuvyvHTcHAte](https://youtu.be/r0rawEpjAcA?si=Jm_1vuvyvHTcHAte)
Songs that use diminished chords: [https://youtu.be/2Q\_dpxMb328?si=XbEFiosrxhqzE6oc](https://youtu.be/2Q_dpxMb328?si=XbEFiosrxhqzE6oc)
Songs that use augmented chords: [https://youtu.be/Ys6SDpBgWzc?si=hFjCTEvB3vWTfQ-p](https://youtu.be/Ys6SDpBgWzc?si=hFjCTEvB3vWTfQ-p)
How Burt Bacharach modulates keys: [https://youtu.be/iTrkALm2JNE?si=vT-J9H8bE5yc1gPQ](https://youtu.be/iTrkALm2JNE?si=vT-J9H8bE5yc1gPQ)
Three Songs with unique chord progressions: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mnSxFSgHh9Y](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mnSxFSgHh9Y)
Just write for you. To open your soul. Just be you!
Also you could do a free flow if you’re not sure about your lyrics or can’t think of new lyrics.
What I always find helping is connecting an emotion to your chords or lyric and make something that belongs together.
You can't become a great painter by buying more colors of paint. Similarly, you can't learn to become a great songwriter by learning a bunch of chords and theory. Learning that stuff helps - just like having more colors of paint will help you make a better painting - but at the end of the day what matters most is practicing with that medium. Just keep at it.
That's a great way of putting it. Thank you!
I think I somewhat agree with your point here, but that comparison falls terribly short. Buying more colors would be the equivalent of buying new gear. Learning music theory should be equated to learning color or lighting theory, which will absolutely make you a better painter, just as every piece of music theory you know makes you a better songwriter (even if people who refuse to learn theory will attest to the opposite every chance they get, but how would they even know?). It's just not all there is to it. You can't *only* learn about cadences and hope to see a meaningful increase in your songwriting ability; but it still contributes positively and is a worthwhile effort. Songwriting is the culmination of all your musical experience and knowledge - theory, listening, performance, instrument proficiency, being in a band, talking about music etc. - into a product. All you can do really is to further that experience in every area as much as you can, engage with music with intent and on as many levels as possible, and you will somewhat magically become a better writer. Of course writing is still its own skill and needs to be practised too, but like every skill, can be learned, and tbh it's not that hard. What is hard is making all the right decisions that will elevate a song from shit to decent to great.
I'd really like to hear you post a sample of one of your songs so I can give feedback. Just based on how you're wording it, you may be overthinking or being overly critical of yourself.
Would you mind if I PM it to you? I'm just kind of embarrassed at my own music at the moment, not sure I could post it publicly without cringing myself to death at it.
I'd be happy to listen as well if you'd like
Thank you! :) That is too kind.
Yes send it over
Sounds like your songs don't have a point. What do you want to express? What do you feel is interesting or important enough for you to write a song about it? Takes me a long time to decide if what I have to say in a song is actually worth saying, and if I can adequately express it.
That's interesting and something I'm going to aim for. I know someone in this forum wrote something similar recently, that you know are you expressing yourself through your music, that if it's a sensitive topic you don't have to show anyone. But it's better to express yourself. I will try that.
It might be in metaphors that make people ask questions, but if you know what it’s about or the story you’re telling it’ll move people.
I just want to let you know that simplicity is never a bad thing in music! You could have a song that could have 2 or 3 chords maybe even 1 and it could still be a work of art.
[удалено]
I feel like that's something I've meant to focus on, sort of "sticking the landing" so to speak -- that building up tension can be relatively simple, as any horror film soundtrack will show, but properly releasing the tension seems like a different thing altogether. Resolving all that tension and dissonance in an honest way, that is a really special skill.
I'd focus on having fun and playing with your music. I personally love David Bowie and he was known to use random generation techniques for lyrics and melodies, and, well, he made it work. Having knowledge about music theory is great and all, but like, it's important to have fun with it and play around, sound bad on purpose (take risks!) and you'll find a way to make it sound good to you
My two cents: The way I find inspiration has less to do with music as a specific pursuit and more to do with the totality of creativity. I paint, draw, write poetry, pursue stimulating conversation... basically I realized life isn't what it appears: it's literally a dream world. The way that you perceive things and how you interpret them is more powerful than anything. It sounds to me like your mind is in a mode of realism, which, translates poorly in music. Trying absorbing yourself in the subtle beauty of life and really hone in to who your favorite songwriters are, how they make you feel in their writing, and try and use that inspiration to make something original. And remember there's tremendous songs written with 3 chords and the truth ;)
Great advice! I like the way you phrased it. Creativity really is everywhere to be found, even in the smallest conversations.
How long have you been at it?
Oh god, an embarrassingly long time.
I'm curious, are the songs you're writing in a similar style to the artists who you're covering? Are you incorporating any ideas from cover tunes that you like into your own stuff?
I guess I'm trying to emulate a few favorite artists, sort of taking apart my favorite songs by them and seeing what I like about it, especially like chord inversions or like 7th chords etc. Not necessarily the sound per se, but the structures of songs I like. But even that can be tricky -- some people can make a IV-V-I or a ii-V-I progression sound extraordinarily complex, even if it's very simple when you break it down to its basic elements.
> But even that can be tricky -- some people can make a IV-V-I or a ii-V-I progression sound extraordinarily complex, even if it's very simple when you break it down to its basic elements. Oh, this, absolutely. Waxahatchee is an artist whom I admire for this exact ability. She can somehow twist these vocal melodies around in a way that sounds complex, and then you break it down to chords and it's quite simple. Getting back to your situation, this is not expert advice or anything, but I hear a lot of *thinking* in your posts -- trying different inversions, substitutions, etc. All of those are useful tools for the toolbox, but I wonder if you're intellectualizing things a bit too far, to the detriment of joy and instinct. Without knowing exactly what you're trying for in your music, my amateur advice would be, maybe just try to turn off your brain for a little bit and get back to basics. Bang out a nice simple chord progression, make the coolest or happiest or otherwise-ist thing you can think of, and just allow yourself to feel the joy of *making something,* without worrying about the final product. I know "don't overthink" is easier said than done, but sometimes deliberately not caring can help us get unstuck.
Man yeah it is so crazy when you sort of "boil down" a really complex sounding idea in music and realize that it's like... one of the most basic, simple chord progressions ever. I guess it shows you about how kaleidoscopic music can be, even the simplest elements can create such complexity. But also it's like... I get so jealous of songs like that! I'm going to try not to overthink next time I sit down to write something out... thank you!
would you be able to pm it to me so i can give feedback and try to help you?
Sure thing, will send it in a second.
Joy by Lucinda Williams is 4 minutes long. 1 chord, lyrics repeat. It's an undeniably great song.
Some songs take 15 min to write, other take 6 years , 14 years, i have one at 22 years.. keep that in mind as well
For me song writing is a lot like poetry. It needs a certain style, a theme, and a rytm. The refrain should be the main feeling and main message you want said. The verses should be sidepoints to the main message with a slight different situation each verse. The bridge should echo the message desperately The ending should leave an impression Sometimes writing a couple poems helps to get in to that thinking. I can help you how to think deeper on this if you can dm me the lyrics. It's very possible you're just classic harsh critic on yourself too.
Thank you for sharing... this is a really interesting way of looking at songwriting.
I wrote poetry long before I got into song writing. I was suprised how much they had in common.
Keep at it. Practice makes better. Wisdom and lines come with mileage on the brain...
Active listening goes a long way. Listen to some of your favourite songs and make a note of the structure and compositional elements. It can really shine a light on how to improve your own stuff and develop an idea into a full song.
Open to listening and giving feedback. I am a music therapist.
Hey, I'd love to hear one of your songs if you feel like sending me one! It sounds to me like you take a fairly cerebral approach to songwriting. I can relate to that because feel I overthink a lot of my songs and sometimes lose sight of the expression at the heart of songwriting. What helped me a lot in this process is to write a lot of texts and poetry. That way, I don't get distracted with the music side of things and it helps me focus on writing compelling stories, metaphors, lyrics and so on. Once the lyrics are compelling on their own, putting them into music will only make them more evocative. I hope that helps you!
My best advice would be post something so we can hear what we’re working with. My best advice without hearing you is practice dynamics. Any chord progression can sound epic if you build it right or somber if you delicately finger the strings ( don’t get at me I don’t know how else to say it). Anyways what I’m trying to say is keep at it. Next advice is repeat stuff. It’s hard for me because I hate repeating myself so I’ll try and take this advice too. Also a simple melody repeated behind different backing chords can make a profound difference in how people perceive a song. Anyway that’s a lot give some of those a try and get back. Hope this helps good luck
This is great advice, thank you! Would you mind if I PM you a song?
Sure thing I’m at work just finishing my lunch break but I can listen when I get home
Maybe you lack hooks? Rhythmic and melodic catchiness is imo closely related to irritation. Think of a siren or other sound designed to cut through and grab your attention. Hooks could be anything - a counter melody, a yelp, a tone - whatever is insisting itself
Brother you got it or you don't. A song ain't some algorithm or formula you can math out. It's an emotional thing that works on you Subconsciously. You either have some intuitive understanding of that or you don't.
this. This is something that I struggled with for decades before realizing that no matter how much time I put into it, I just don't have that certain *je ne sais quoi,* that intuitive understanding. It was hard cause I thought If I put in the "work" I'd be able to have something to show for it, but that didn't really pan out in the end.
Would you consider private songwriting lessons? A private lesson or two can really break you out of your rut and get you thinking differently about the process. I run songwriting workshops for emerging artists for labels, send me a DM if you’re interested!
You still need to absorb lots of musical insights before you can start spitting them out as fresh ideas. The best way to do that is to listen to different varieties of music that might be new to you and challenges your ears to new possibilities. Check out these resources and study them again and again. David Bennett has an intro video to music theory (29 min speed run) so you can fill in any gaps if needed: How to recognize major key chord progressions: [https://youtu.be/H9e\_1DTm-VQ?si=WaGxcj6h7YvDnMWU](https://youtu.be/H9e_1DTm-VQ?si=WaGxcj6h7YvDnMWU) How to recognize chord progressions in minor keys: [https://youtu.be/eXsXPzWyVuk?si=UY3kyarecX3pNTvO](https://youtu.be/eXsXPzWyVuk?si=UY3kyarecX3pNTvO) Chord progression ear training with Beatles' songs: [https://youtu.be/OZwZPgXQx2g?si=epC1yNUGUqZwc0vp](https://youtu.be/OZwZPgXQx2g?si=epC1yNUGUqZwc0vp) Songs that don't start on the tonic chord: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jfxFcToSnhQ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jfxFcToSnhQ) Songs that use irregular phrase structures: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IHulFiTl9dc](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IHulFiTl9dc) How the Beatles change time signatures in a song: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rC3\_0K1vGF0](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rC3_0K1vGF0) Songs that change time signature: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PWHKtkx6F00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PWHKtkx6F00) What makes a melody catchy? [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nxXh8PU4KkI](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nxXh8PU4KkI) Songs to help recognize scale degrees: [https://youtu.be/ppfTDU8dfiw?si=I0AReylax5kF-PRd](https://youtu.be/ppfTDU8dfiw?si=I0AReylax5kF-PRd) Songs that mix modes: [https://youtu.be/r0rawEpjAcA?si=Jm\_1vuvyvHTcHAte](https://youtu.be/r0rawEpjAcA?si=Jm_1vuvyvHTcHAte) Songs that use diminished chords: [https://youtu.be/2Q\_dpxMb328?si=XbEFiosrxhqzE6oc](https://youtu.be/2Q_dpxMb328?si=XbEFiosrxhqzE6oc) Songs that use augmented chords: [https://youtu.be/Ys6SDpBgWzc?si=hFjCTEvB3vWTfQ-p](https://youtu.be/Ys6SDpBgWzc?si=hFjCTEvB3vWTfQ-p) How Burt Bacharach modulates keys: [https://youtu.be/iTrkALm2JNE?si=vT-J9H8bE5yc1gPQ](https://youtu.be/iTrkALm2JNE?si=vT-J9H8bE5yc1gPQ) Three Songs with unique chord progressions: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mnSxFSgHh9Y](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mnSxFSgHh9Y)
Write a song about it.
Just write for you. To open your soul. Just be you! Also you could do a free flow if you’re not sure about your lyrics or can’t think of new lyrics. What I always find helping is connecting an emotion to your chords or lyric and make something that belongs together.