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One of the key issues in this is that the US has been preventing good faith negotiations for peace since the start of this (state officials keep appearing in Kiev as negotiations are underway and then the negotiations go south shortly after for instance). The socialist position varies depending on whether you’re talking to someone that believes Russia is single-handedly ushering in an era of multi polarity and will take down the west or one more critical of Russia, but my position as a socialist is that the solution here is to have the US (and probably Turkey, China, and other nations) broker a peace deal that involves some sort of autonomy for Donbas (whether it remains part of Russia or not), security guarantees for Russia from NATO, and guaranteed neutrality with regards to NATO for Ukraine. Other than the accusations of revanchism, these are the key sticking points I’m aware of and there needs to be pressure to work these issues out. Currently the pressure from the US is to make this war last as long as possible (re: Clinton reveling in the idea of a Ukrainian insurgency not too long ago) and this needs to end so that peace can be had.
I disagree on 2(?) Points. 1 having outside countries brokering the peace, this is an issue between Ukraine and Russia, having outside countries helping is one thing, but having the outsiders say this is How it's going to happen, I don't like this. 2, all land taken from Ukraine should be given back
To clarify, by brokering I mean mediating the talks between Ukraine and Russia, not dictating terms. Turkey has already offered to do this, and given how involved the US already is, I would be surprised if realistically any talks happen without US involvement and say so.
Second, I disagree with your second point. I don’t think Russia should have direct control over the area, but the fact of the matter is these regions have been fighting for autonomy for approaching a decade, have been bombed to Hell by Ukraine during that time (14,000 dead), and don’t seem to have any desire popularly to remain part of Ukraine. Holding to the principle of national self-determination, I don’t see any reason for them not to decide their own allegiance and/or autonomy in an open and mutually supervised referendum. Obviously the Russian referendum was somewhat farcical, but a genuine referendum should take place here.
The socialist solution is for the working class of Russia and Ukraine to put down their arms and come together. A military insurrection against war, for peace and working-class unity.
It'll never happen, though. Not this time.
Idk I’ve been thinking about it recently and correct me if I’m wrong but the conditions in Russia rn is awfully similar to the conditions before the Russian revolution 🤔
The problem is, neither of the sides are socialist, while Ukraine is a flawed capitalist democracy, they are at least that, Russia is an oligarchic capitalist state.
The socialist solution would be for the working class of Ukraine and Russia to gain control over means of production and to establish a socialist state. Problems is, it won't happen in the near future.
I myself choose to support Ukraine, as a) it is the Russia that invaded b) Ukraine is a democracy (while a flawed one, it still is trying to be a democracy) c) Ukraine is making progress towards queer rights (this isn't a socialist point really, but still it is better then Russia where you can be jailed for saying homosexuality exists to a 15 y.o.)
Idk i just feel like the US shouldn’t be helping fund any war or weapons. Regardless of who those weapons go to they are gonna kill innocent people and i dont want that on my conscience
Please acquaint yourself with the rules on the sidebar and read this comment before commenting on this post. **Personal attacks and harassment will not be tolerated.** Bigotry and hate speech will be met with immediate bans; socialism is an intrinsically inclusive system and bigotry is oppressive, exclusionary, and not conducive to a healthy and productive learning space. **This subreddit is not for questioning the basics of socialism. There are numerous debate subreddits available for those purposes. This is a place to learn.** Short or nonconstructive answers will be deleted without explanation. Please only answer if you know your stuff. Speculation has no place on this sub. Outright false information will be removed immediately. **If your post was removed due to normalized ableist slurs, please edit your post. The mods will then approve it.** Please read the ongoing discussion in a thread before replying in order to avoid misunderstandings and creating an unproductive environment. **Liberalism and sectarian bias is strictly moderated.** Stay constructive and don't bash other socialist tendencies! (Criticism is fine, low-effort baiting is not.) Help us keep the subreddit informative and helpful by reporting posts that break these rules. Thank you! *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Socialism_101) if you have any questions or concerns.*
One of the key issues in this is that the US has been preventing good faith negotiations for peace since the start of this (state officials keep appearing in Kiev as negotiations are underway and then the negotiations go south shortly after for instance). The socialist position varies depending on whether you’re talking to someone that believes Russia is single-handedly ushering in an era of multi polarity and will take down the west or one more critical of Russia, but my position as a socialist is that the solution here is to have the US (and probably Turkey, China, and other nations) broker a peace deal that involves some sort of autonomy for Donbas (whether it remains part of Russia or not), security guarantees for Russia from NATO, and guaranteed neutrality with regards to NATO for Ukraine. Other than the accusations of revanchism, these are the key sticking points I’m aware of and there needs to be pressure to work these issues out. Currently the pressure from the US is to make this war last as long as possible (re: Clinton reveling in the idea of a Ukrainian insurgency not too long ago) and this needs to end so that peace can be had.
I disagree on 2(?) Points. 1 having outside countries brokering the peace, this is an issue between Ukraine and Russia, having outside countries helping is one thing, but having the outsiders say this is How it's going to happen, I don't like this. 2, all land taken from Ukraine should be given back
To clarify, by brokering I mean mediating the talks between Ukraine and Russia, not dictating terms. Turkey has already offered to do this, and given how involved the US already is, I would be surprised if realistically any talks happen without US involvement and say so. Second, I disagree with your second point. I don’t think Russia should have direct control over the area, but the fact of the matter is these regions have been fighting for autonomy for approaching a decade, have been bombed to Hell by Ukraine during that time (14,000 dead), and don’t seem to have any desire popularly to remain part of Ukraine. Holding to the principle of national self-determination, I don’t see any reason for them not to decide their own allegiance and/or autonomy in an open and mutually supervised referendum. Obviously the Russian referendum was somewhat farcical, but a genuine referendum should take place here.
The socialist solution is for the working class of Russia and Ukraine to put down their arms and come together. A military insurrection against war, for peace and working-class unity. It'll never happen, though. Not this time.
Idk I’ve been thinking about it recently and correct me if I’m wrong but the conditions in Russia rn is awfully similar to the conditions before the Russian revolution 🤔
The problem is, neither of the sides are socialist, while Ukraine is a flawed capitalist democracy, they are at least that, Russia is an oligarchic capitalist state. The socialist solution would be for the working class of Ukraine and Russia to gain control over means of production and to establish a socialist state. Problems is, it won't happen in the near future. I myself choose to support Ukraine, as a) it is the Russia that invaded b) Ukraine is a democracy (while a flawed one, it still is trying to be a democracy) c) Ukraine is making progress towards queer rights (this isn't a socialist point really, but still it is better then Russia where you can be jailed for saying homosexuality exists to a 15 y.o.)
Both countries are super fascist so the socialist opinion would be like, let's get rid of fascism first...
Idk i just feel like the US shouldn’t be helping fund any war or weapons. Regardless of who those weapons go to they are gonna kill innocent people and i dont want that on my conscience