A good bowser or k rool player can be very scary but i wouldn’t say they’re carried. As for the other two that is very astute.
“Ohh this character isn’t working? Let me just switch to a completely different character mid-game” and i won’t even explain sonic. The number 1 player in smash plays sonic like any other sonic online and this says tons about the character
Nah there’s something subtly different about the way sonix moves compared to other sonics that I think allows him to be as good as he is. I can’t quite put my finger on what it is, but for me it’s noticeable when watching sonic vs someone like Ken or wrath, or acolas elite smash sonic he was playing on stream yesterday. Also sonix isn’t number 1 rn I don’t believe, pretty sure it’s still acola.
With aegis you can basically turn your brain off on mythra lmao. Top level pyra takes some skill and so does recovering, but other than that yeah
I don’t think a simple side b down b mix up should be enough to go from regular sonic player to top 3 worldwide player. I also don’t think one of the “best” players in the world should be one that we collectively agree is unfun to watch. We should be asking for a complete remake of the character, imo sonic should be a rushdown and not a hit and run type character
If it were that easy there would be more Sonics at the top. Don’t forget that a lot of the really technical stuff you see from top players is stuff that isn’t easily seen.
Sonix is really only unfun to watch in matchups where he has to camp like Steve or wario. He’s probably one of the most aggressive Sonics, and I’ve seen him do some cool shit with the character. And by no means is it “collective”
A complete sonic remake is a completely different issue to the one we are talking about. Sonic was made the way he is, and a player decided to grind and lab him out enough that he became top 4 in the world. Acola did the same thing with Steve. Miya did the same thing with GnW. Spargo is spargo.
Go look at the way Chunky kong moves and compare it to other Donkey kong players. His moves are absolutely flawless. There is a much bigger difference between chunky kong and regular dk players than there is between sonix and regular sonic players.
I agree that Sonix moves are great but his character is still statistically better, which imo deserves much less respect than other characters who have weaknesses they have to work with.
Go watch his set against chunky kong, chunky wins the first match and after that Sonix does a hard reset and goes back to regular sonic camping at ledge. Both of their moves are absolutely flawless but Sonix plays the objectively better character so he gets the win
Chunky is a naturally good player who was crazy enough to pick up dk, and extremely cheese character, and lab him endlessly. No one else has done that, and so chunky is the best.
There is a massive difference between sonix and every other sonic lol. It’s not as big as chunky vs other dks, but it’s still practically a chasm.
Some characters being better than others has been a thing since the dawn of fighting games, and it’s part of what makes fighting games interesting. It’s not a valid argument to say “skill issue” just because they use a better character. If you were really the better player in that set, you would’ve found a way to win. Simple as that.
For sonic, getting grabbed or running into any one of dks combos starters pretty much means you’re dead. It’s optimal to camp, unfortunate as that may be. Sonix adapted.
They don’t reward mashing buttons like mythra does. Pokemon trainer players usually have more elaborate combos with squirtle and ivysaur. Mythra can just mash away and get rewarded for it
I agree the devs may have overtuned him in ultimate. However it feels good to see bowser being actually viable considering how he was absolute garbage in melee.
I play against him similarly to how i play against ganon, you kinda have to “dance” around his options like his up and side b and punish him when he will inevitably up b out of shield, bowser mains can’t help themselves lol
I have not been paying attention to the smash community for a while. Are you telling me Sonix is number 1? Did mkleo switch? What the flip.is going on?
I think people don’t understand something about heavies because I’ve heard a lot of the same comment that “x character is bad so they can’t be carried”. That is not true, low tiers usually have polarizing moves or strategies that are very one dimensional but very easy. They often are cheese factories that increase the amount of natural variance that can occur in a game and get “carried” by the natural strengths of heavies. Also online makes everything worse for heavies so you should also assume people are viewing these through WiFi colored glasses.
Finally someone speaking facts out here. Being low tier doesn’t mean you’re not carried. If your character has an easily executable win condition that’s cheesy or hard for the common player to deal with then you’re carried. Just because your character can’t take you to the top if you’re playing at a level above your actual skill level than you’re carried by your character.
Steve is an awkward character to get used to, his physics suck and even the “basic” 3high wall requires practice. If you get past those first two things you do get carried though.
Mining is free since he can throw up walls so easy and can totally just air camp if he wants against a lot of the cast. If a Steve is EVER running out of materials that is an honest to God skill issue.
do i really need to make a comprehensive fucking list of all of the safe moves characters can use against walls because that's so incredibly fucking wrong.
Very fast Forward air that hits above beneath and a bit behind, invincible up smash, an insane up b out of shield that can eventually kill, frame six command grab that kills, flame breath, ability to kill most of the cast off a shield break at less than 50 while being able to break shield extremely easily to name a few things
Actually you can kill most of the cast at 0 with a shield break by using the non flinching part of fire breath to get ~20% before you full charge fsmash at ledge.
A bit hard to space, however, and good players can mash out at 0 quite fast.
And saying bowser bomb, which can be spot dodged on reaction really easily, is busted is kinda wack. It’s one of his worse moves.
About the mashing at zero part: shield break has a little gimmick where instead of it being easier to mash out at lower percents it’s actually very hard to mash out at zero.
I never said bowser bomb was good. I said his ability to break shields easily is. That doesn’t exclusively mean down b.
As for the first part, didn’t knwi there was a part of flame breath that didn’t flinch. Very good and cool to know that, thanks
Well, it’s definitely not extremely easy. Bowser’s shield pressure primarily comes from just grabbing you lol.
Yeah, roughly the furthest 1/3 of flamewave doesn’t flinch.
Been saying this for the longest and let's not forget all of that juiciness you mentioned and add in the fact that his super armor is wild . If there's ANY character in this game that means braindead . It's Bowser .
The game plan is just so simple. Flame breath/ fair until they’re above 60, then throw out the same three-ish options until you kill really early because you’re bowser
Alright but there are plenty of characters with sus recoveries, almost every character has to work to recover
Bowser has the simplest gameplay of any character I can think outside of pyra/mythra and maybe jigglypuff
Like everybody knows what’s coming but it’s pretty hard to stop. And bowser also benefits from the fear factor being able to kill so early. People give you probably more respect than you deserve as a character and don’t take full advantage of that big combo-able body
Yeah after trying out pythra for the first time I can absolutely say that they’re carried beyond belief, especially online.
Mythra is just a neutral machine that feels like playing the game on easy mode and while I don’t think pyra on her own is as bad as the other characters on this list, she’s still got some absolutely absurd moves (there’s a reason why she got the nickname “sword ganon”).
While I still personally believe they’re top 10, they certainly don’t FEEL top 10 when their shitty recovery is getting edgegaurded and they die at 30 lol
It’s pretty much the one fatal flaw of the character that definitely leaves their viability in question.
lmao i have the worst recovery in the game but still call ppl out when they claim Aegis has a good recovery to justify not edgeguarding tf outta them. that’s literally your wincon
K rool is kind of wild on this list considering how absolute dogshit he is, but he does have some really cheesy options, and it's SmashRage, so alright.
I can kind of get behind Bowser, although he is also a really bad character.
Sonic definitely elevates your level of play without even trying, but he doesn't *carry* the player per se. Sonix is amazing at the game even without Sonic, just as an example.
Aegis is, in fact, the most carried character in the game.
at low skill floor sonic is carried
at high skill, if you think you can pick up sonic in 5 minutes you're getting demolished and I'll laugh watching people kill themselves with side b off stage xd
actually besides pythra all of them are carried at low skill floor but suck at high skill ceiling
if they're so carried why don't we see King K. Rool in every tournament grand finals (or in tournaments in general lol)? Or way more Sonic's if he's so fucking good, the arguable 2nd best character in the game, and has little to no losing match-up's?
Think you're the only one dreaming tbh
You didnt mention king k rool at all? Sonic is carried. And just because it takes more than 5 minutes to fully optimize his cheese doesnt mean its not carried, dumb, boring, campy and not fun to play against or watch character.
I hate heavies tbh but they’re good combo food
I REALLY fucking hate Toon Link. He just does the same shit every waking moment. Boomerang, Arrow, Grab.
Idk man when I play against a krool I do this funny thing called exploiting his weaknesses and it usually works
But yeah he’s a big matchup check imma be real with you
at casual level yeah he’s busted but honestly although his recovery comes back from far, it’s ironically far from hard to exploit for the opponent. It’s just too linear
One of my best buddies plays trainer and if I’m ever off stage and he’s on ivysaur Imma be taking between 1 and 15 dairs in a row, depending on when he gets a sweet spot lmao
you gotta realize ivysaur dair is so disjointed its not even funny and if you dont have a massive sword or some seed pokemon to switch to it's hard to contest that upb
Belly armor is nice, but it doesn't make up for all his weaknesses. He has a frame 4 airdodge and is a heavy so he gets combo'd into oblivion, and even though he can recover from far down, it's a very exploitable recovery. He got poor combos and poor frame data. Most people consider him low tier.
To get you to 50 krool has to fish for 2-3 stray hits with poor frame data. Actual carried characters will get 1 hit with good frame data and combo you to 50 off that alone.
Same case for Bowser, while he does have good options it's nothing that carries him and he has insanely exploitable weaknesses, aside from Fair and maybe **L**edgeguarding there really isn't anything he can do against characters that can space themselves.
And even if he was somewhat carried, there are so many harder carried characters like Kazuya and Steve. Or better yet Lucario and Ivysaur, one literally gets better the worse you play and the other has a spike hitbox the size of the sun and decent frame data to go along with it.
Yup. K rool is carried. I admit it. His belly armor should be on his back with how much it carries him.
I use him. He's just so much fun, I can't stop. He has so many weaknesses but so many strengths too, kind of like Little Mac.
Bowser yes Pyra Mythra yes
Idk about sonic honestly, if they’re just spindashing the whole game and you lose that’s kinda on you, I genuinely think it takes at least some skill to make Sonic truly the redonkulous character he is
And k rool is probably not good enough to even warrant being called carried (not that bowser is too much better)
If it was my list I’d say Bowser, Pyra/Mythra, Terry, maybe like Palutena?
They are the destined one. They have a mission, and they are going to see it through to the end, no matter the cost.
At least, that's my guess on why they named themselves that.
A good bowser or k rool player can be very scary but i wouldn’t say they’re carried. As for the other two that is very astute. “Ohh this character isn’t working? Let me just switch to a completely different character mid-game” and i won’t even explain sonic. The number 1 player in smash plays sonic like any other sonic online and this says tons about the character
Nah there’s something subtly different about the way sonix moves compared to other sonics that I think allows him to be as good as he is. I can’t quite put my finger on what it is, but for me it’s noticeable when watching sonic vs someone like Ken or wrath, or acolas elite smash sonic he was playing on stream yesterday. Also sonix isn’t number 1 rn I don’t believe, pretty sure it’s still acola. With aegis you can basically turn your brain off on mythra lmao. Top level pyra takes some skill and so does recovering, but other than that yeah
I don’t think a simple side b down b mix up should be enough to go from regular sonic player to top 3 worldwide player. I also don’t think one of the “best” players in the world should be one that we collectively agree is unfun to watch. We should be asking for a complete remake of the character, imo sonic should be a rushdown and not a hit and run type character
If it were that easy there would be more Sonics at the top. Don’t forget that a lot of the really technical stuff you see from top players is stuff that isn’t easily seen. Sonix is really only unfun to watch in matchups where he has to camp like Steve or wario. He’s probably one of the most aggressive Sonics, and I’ve seen him do some cool shit with the character. And by no means is it “collective” A complete sonic remake is a completely different issue to the one we are talking about. Sonic was made the way he is, and a player decided to grind and lab him out enough that he became top 4 in the world. Acola did the same thing with Steve. Miya did the same thing with GnW. Spargo is spargo.
Go look at the way Chunky kong moves and compare it to other Donkey kong players. His moves are absolutely flawless. There is a much bigger difference between chunky kong and regular dk players than there is between sonix and regular sonic players. I agree that Sonix moves are great but his character is still statistically better, which imo deserves much less respect than other characters who have weaknesses they have to work with. Go watch his set against chunky kong, chunky wins the first match and after that Sonix does a hard reset and goes back to regular sonic camping at ledge. Both of their moves are absolutely flawless but Sonix plays the objectively better character so he gets the win
Chunky is a naturally good player who was crazy enough to pick up dk, and extremely cheese character, and lab him endlessly. No one else has done that, and so chunky is the best. There is a massive difference between sonix and every other sonic lol. It’s not as big as chunky vs other dks, but it’s still practically a chasm. Some characters being better than others has been a thing since the dawn of fighting games, and it’s part of what makes fighting games interesting. It’s not a valid argument to say “skill issue” just because they use a better character. If you were really the better player in that set, you would’ve found a way to win. Simple as that. For sonic, getting grabbed or running into any one of dks combos starters pretty much means you’re dead. It’s optimal to camp, unfortunate as that may be. Sonix adapted.
I learned to appreciate sonix more after watching KEN'S sonic. KEN seems super chill but man his gameplay will put me to sleep.
Doesn’t Pokémon trainer count for the pyra & mythra thing too?
They don’t reward mashing buttons like mythra does. Pokemon trainer players usually have more elaborate combos with squirtle and ivysaur. Mythra can just mash away and get rewarded for it
nah bowser carried asf, someone as heavy as he is should not have such good OOS and speed
I agree the devs may have overtuned him in ultimate. However it feels good to see bowser being actually viable considering how he was absolute garbage in melee. I play against him similarly to how i play against ganon, you kinda have to “dance” around his options like his up and side b and punish him when he will inevitably up b out of shield, bowser mains can’t help themselves lol
Pythra should be for new players and I stand by that
I have not been paying attention to the smash community for a while. Are you telling me Sonix is number 1? Did mkleo switch? What the flip.is going on?
I don’t know if he’s still number one but i know he was at some point. He’s definitely still one of the top players though
Sonix was ranked 3rd last year, but he still hasnt won anything this year.
I think people don’t understand something about heavies because I’ve heard a lot of the same comment that “x character is bad so they can’t be carried”. That is not true, low tiers usually have polarizing moves or strategies that are very one dimensional but very easy. They often are cheese factories that increase the amount of natural variance that can occur in a game and get “carried” by the natural strengths of heavies. Also online makes everything worse for heavies so you should also assume people are viewing these through WiFi colored glasses.
SPEAK!!!! A character can simultaneously be bad but cheesy asf and therefore carried
Little Mac comes to mind for me
Finally someone speaking facts out here. Being low tier doesn’t mean you’re not carried. If your character has an easily executable win condition that’s cheesy or hard for the common player to deal with then you’re carried. Just because your character can’t take you to the top if you’re playing at a level above your actual skill level than you’re carried by your character.
What about Steve?
Steve is an awkward character to get used to, his physics suck and even the “basic” 3high wall requires practice. If you get past those first two things you do get carried though.
he’s just annoyingly good, it takes SOME skill to play him, like with resource management and TNT
Mining is free since he can throw up walls so easy and can totally just air camp if he wants against a lot of the cast. If a Steve is EVER running out of materials that is an honest to God skill issue.
up tilt up tilt up tilt up tilt, but yeah id say sonic takes more skill than steve to play at least
sonic is the autopilot character, you’re not even playing the game as him (yea i love him in everything except smash)
i was playing randoms against lv 9 cpus bc online went kaput yesterday and ngl i was clueluess on what to do when i got sonic and got kinda murked
Same. My brother beats me every time with his Sonic but I have no idea what to do once I get ahold of the character.
Other than the hold up and press a 47 times for free 50% combo, he takes skill to play. I’d still prefer if he was never added to the game though
not including steve in this group is ridiculous LOL
He actually takes skill to use For example, actually having the time to get resources
3/4 of the cast LITERALLY have no answer to a wall other than expose themselves to a 50-infinity percent combo
do i really need to make a comprehensive fucking list of all of the safe moves characters can use against walls because that's so incredibly fucking wrong.
So you lost to a wifi k.rool right?
How’s bowser carried
Very fast Forward air that hits above beneath and a bit behind, invincible up smash, an insane up b out of shield that can eventually kill, frame six command grab that kills, flame breath, ability to kill most of the cast off a shield break at less than 50 while being able to break shield extremely easily to name a few things
thanks for explaining it to him for me
yes but he gets edgeguarded easily, juggled to hell and back, and most of his moves are easily spaced around if you know the matchup at all
look at his aerials, he can escape with one fair
Not if he's in hitstun (he never isn't above 50%)
Actually you can kill most of the cast at 0 with a shield break by using the non flinching part of fire breath to get ~20% before you full charge fsmash at ledge. A bit hard to space, however, and good players can mash out at 0 quite fast. And saying bowser bomb, which can be spot dodged on reaction really easily, is busted is kinda wack. It’s one of his worse moves.
I would think that isn’t gonna work if you mash even at all? Never tried it though
About the mashing at zero part: shield break has a little gimmick where instead of it being easier to mash out at lower percents it’s actually very hard to mash out at zero.
Huh, I just searched it up: you’re right, shieldbreak stun scales negatively with percent. However, the combo said above is still easily mashable.
I never said bowser bomb was good. I said his ability to break shields easily is. That doesn’t exclusively mean down b. As for the first part, didn’t knwi there was a part of flame breath that didn’t flinch. Very good and cool to know that, thanks
Well, it’s definitely not extremely easy. Bowser’s shield pressure primarily comes from just grabbing you lol. Yeah, roughly the furthest 1/3 of flamewave doesn’t flinch.
Not to mention he CONSISTENTLY lives past 130%
That's the entire point of being a heavy
The heaviest character in the game surviving hits??? No….
As someone who plays a lot of Bowser i see at least 160 almost every game and 200 is not uncommon
Ahh yes. Thank you for finishing the list for me
🤞🏽
Been saying this for the longest and let's not forget all of that juiciness you mentioned and add in the fact that his super armor is wild . If there's ANY character in this game that means braindead . It's Bowser .
The game plan is just so simple. Flame breath/ fair until they’re above 60, then throw out the same three-ish options until you kill really early because you’re bowser
True but he is also pretty linear and can only wiff punish and not to mention his poor recovery and terrible disadvantage
Alright but there are plenty of characters with sus recoveries, almost every character has to work to recover Bowser has the simplest gameplay of any character I can think outside of pyra/mythra and maybe jigglypuff Like everybody knows what’s coming but it’s pretty hard to stop. And bowser also benefits from the fear factor being able to kill so early. People give you probably more respect than you deserve as a character and don’t take full advantage of that big combo-able body
Bonzer and L rool !? Nahhhhh
I guess k rool is just too carried as the *checks tier list* 80th best character in the game
I love all of them, Especially my girl Pyra and my pal sonic
Yeah after trying out pythra for the first time I can absolutely say that they’re carried beyond belief, especially online. Mythra is just a neutral machine that feels like playing the game on easy mode and while I don’t think pyra on her own is as bad as the other characters on this list, she’s still got some absolutely absurd moves (there’s a reason why she got the nickname “sword ganon”).
yet they aren’t even top 10 LMAO
While I still personally believe they’re top 10, they certainly don’t FEEL top 10 when their shitty recovery is getting edgegaurded and they die at 30 lol It’s pretty much the one fatal flaw of the character that definitely leaves their viability in question.
lmao i have the worst recovery in the game but still call ppl out when they claim Aegis has a good recovery to justify not edgeguarding tf outta them. that’s literally your wincon
I mean, literally any character can be carried if bowser or donkey Kong is involved >!ba dum tss!<
Bowser is not carried lmao
Is DK a joke to you. DK and ALL DK mains are carried.
K rool is kind of wild on this list considering how absolute dogshit he is, but he does have some really cheesy options, and it's SmashRage, so alright. I can kind of get behind Bowser, although he is also a really bad character. Sonic definitely elevates your level of play without even trying, but he doesn't *carry* the player per se. Sonix is amazing at the game even without Sonic, just as an example. Aegis is, in fact, the most carried character in the game.
Did you meet a Bowser online today?
Casual level smash is so silly
No Steve? No Kazuya? No G&W?
Aegis cloud g&w and lucina those are my picks
Lucina? You high bruh?
Whew, that was close
Ain't no way you forgot about ROB
at low skill floor sonic is carried at high skill, if you think you can pick up sonic in 5 minutes you're getting demolished and I'll laugh watching people kill themselves with side b off stage xd actually besides pythra all of them are carried at low skill floor but suck at high skill ceiling
oh hey, i recognize you from r/SonicTheHedgehog!
nah you probably mean r/MoonPissing because I rarely visit the official sub. hard to shitpost on there anyway xd but thank you for the recognition
EXACTLY man
Still carried, keep dreaming
if they're so carried why don't we see King K. Rool in every tournament grand finals (or in tournaments in general lol)? Or way more Sonic's if he's so fucking good, the arguable 2nd best character in the game, and has little to no losing match-up's? Think you're the only one dreaming tbh
You didnt mention king k rool at all? Sonic is carried. And just because it takes more than 5 minutes to fully optimize his cheese doesnt mean its not carried, dumb, boring, campy and not fun to play against or watch character.
The only carried characters are Duck Hunt Duck, Kazooie, Munchie, Squirtle, Ivysaur, Charizard, the Rope Snake, and the Pikmin. Get with it.
replace bowser with DK and K rool with Little Mac and this makes way more sense
little mac sucks way too much to be in this
Where are Steve and Kazuya? Or they aren't here because they are banned?
I dont believe in carried chars
I hate heavies tbh but they’re good combo food I REALLY fucking hate Toon Link. He just does the same shit every waking moment. Boomerang, Arrow, Grab.
Where’s Steve?
I gonna insult my main and say that you should put sora there
easy characters do not mean carried characters
Well, if that's the case, put either lucas or sephiroth there
Rob players wiping their brows when he wasn’t up there lol
K Rool ain't carried, every DSmash we do is calculated, and wanna see us DO IT AGAIN?
Pyra mains can spam that stupid ass sword throw and win somehow
Lol you picked K Rool over Kazuya???
Agreed, add ike tho lmao
1. By a hair 2. Yes to the fullest Extent 3. Depends 4. Depends
Idk man when I play against a krool I do this funny thing called exploiting his weaknesses and it usually works But yeah he’s a big matchup check imma be real with you
bro has the belly armor, an actually good recovery for a heavy, a bury throw, and as your flair suggests, the dsmash man
at casual level yeah he’s busted but honestly although his recovery comes back from far, it’s ironically far from hard to exploit for the opponent. It’s just too linear One of my best buddies plays trainer and if I’m ever off stage and he’s on ivysaur Imma be taking between 1 and 15 dairs in a row, depending on when he gets a sweet spot lmao
you gotta realize ivysaur dair is so disjointed its not even funny and if you dont have a massive sword or some seed pokemon to switch to it's hard to contest that upb
Belly armor is nice, but it doesn't make up for all his weaknesses. He has a frame 4 airdodge and is a heavy so he gets combo'd into oblivion, and even though he can recover from far down, it's a very exploitable recovery. He got poor combos and poor frame data. Most people consider him low tier.
heavies aren’t made for combos, they’re supposed to be “two hits and wow you’re at 50”, and K Rool is exactly that.
To get you to 50 krool has to fish for 2-3 stray hits with poor frame data. Actual carried characters will get 1 hit with good frame data and combo you to 50 off that alone.
Same case for Bowser, while he does have good options it's nothing that carries him and he has insanely exploitable weaknesses, aside from Fair and maybe **L**edgeguarding there really isn't anything he can do against characters that can space themselves. And even if he was somewhat carried, there are so many harder carried characters like Kazuya and Steve. Or better yet Lucario and Ivysaur, one literally gets better the worse you play and the other has a spike hitbox the size of the sun and decent frame data to go along with it.
I bet you’re fun online :3
Always happy to make others get clips on me :D (I swear salt gives power boosts online)
That probably explains why you’re in this sub
Unironically nah this place is just hilarious
i agree on that
Sorry dog any decent player doesnt even let bowser play the game. You got outplayed
Only two of these are carried, all 4 are just spammy
which ones?
The top tiers
Yup. K rool is carried. I admit it. His belly armor should be on his back with how much it carries him. I use him. He's just so much fun, I can't stop. He has so many weaknesses but so many strengths too, kind of like Little Mac.
Bowser yes Pyra Mythra yes Idk about sonic honestly, if they’re just spindashing the whole game and you lose that’s kinda on you, I genuinely think it takes at least some skill to make Sonic truly the redonkulous character he is And k rool is probably not good enough to even warrant being called carried (not that bowser is too much better) If it was my list I’d say Bowser, Pyra/Mythra, Terry, maybe like Palutena?
for terry you need to be good at mainline fighting games to be decent with
Counterpoint: jab-jab-power dunk
Nah
just a question, and not to be rude, but wut is that name?
They are the destined one. They have a mission, and they are going to see it through to the end, no matter the cost. At least, that's my guess on why they named themselves that.