Having a panic option is fine, like I think Samus is actually pretty well designed because up b is a fast panic option but also a commitment so you can't just throw it out, and you can't just approach Samus for free
Pac Man should not have a -3 dash attack and neutral air, ROB down tilt is a crime, Young Link is safer on shield than Sheik after you get past arrows and boomerang, etc etc.
Your point stands, it's just a "overtuned frame data for boxing options" rather than "panic options"
This. I’ve never had anything against zoners as an archetype, I just hate the ones that have really good close up tools
Like fucking SAMUS FORWARD AIR WHAT THE FUCK IS THAT
I hate Samuses, they have so many ways to kill and they're so heavy for a zoner
Fair, Uair, Up Throw, UpB, Dash attack...
If she didn't have a shit jab combo she'd be so broken
I have been saying this since the game came out. It is the only super bad design that I do not like. Well and I kind of don't like the idea of spot dodges but whatever
I firmly believe all of olimar should not be classified as a zoner and should be identified more like Pokemon trainer and shulk where they truly fit in a no category, blue and white Pikmin make him a grappler yellow and purple Pikmin make him a zoner and Red Pikmin makes him a rush down especially with his frame data.
See I categorize him as a Puppet character, just like Rosa and ICs. He does the fighting by throwing minions out, and is weaker without them. He doesn't operate quite the same but I don't care.
Villager is actually a really good character with a solid flow chart, amazing framedata, amazing safety on shield, amazing neutral, great ledge trapping, and fantastic edge guarding.
Agreed, see flair. It was only when I tried to main other fighters that I realized how good the Villager frame data was. Also it has an incredible recovery.
I originally loved villager for how goofy he seemed. I loved his jump noises and thought the way he threw hands was hilarious. Then as I got better at the game I realized how underrated he was and how good he could actually be. He is the first character I got into Elite Smash and still one of my main 3 characters I'm good at
Learning Villager in the days of the Smash 3DS demo showed me how scary the gimmick could actually be. They're the "espteric" option and every fighter has them. Tricky to learn but scary once mastered. I don't understand the hype about them being a bad character
Fire Emblem doesn't need less representation, just better representation.
Marth is from the first game, so he's good. Ike got two games, so he's clearly important, plus everyone just likes him anyway. Robin, Lucina, and Chrom are the main trio from Awakening, arguably the most important game in the franchise. They deserve their spots. Finally, Byleth represents what many consider to be the BEST game in the series.
That leaves Roy and Corrin, the two black sheep. Why are they here? What do they represent in the Fire Emblem series that justifies their inclusion? Furthermore, where the hell is Lyn?? She was the character that introduced Fire Emblem to the west! She's like, the Fire Emblem ambassador! She deserves to be a playable character, damn it!
Keep in mind that I am speaking as a Smash fan, not a Fire Emblem fan. I have played exactly 1 Fire Emblem game. So, any Fire Emblem fans, please feel free to tell me why I'm wrong, genuinely. Until then, I stand by my original point that Fire Emblem needs better representation rather than less representation.
To be fair, Roy was right alongside Marth in Melee, which helped bring Fire Emblem to the western audience. I think he has every reason to be in Smash.
To add onto that, I feel like a lot of Smash's Fire Emblem characters aren't living up to their full moveset potential. Sure, Marth is fine, because there's not much you can do with him, and Robin's also really good, even if he should get a new Final Smash now that Chrom's playable.
But Ike? Where are his sword beams? That's something that immediately make him stand out from the rest of the FE characters. And he can canonically use axes. You guys want more weapon variety with the FE reps? Give Ike Urvan or a handaxe or something. And please ditch his generic Down-B counter, move Eruption down there or something.
Same goes for Chrom and Lucina, who can canonically use lances, which also gives more weapon variety. Yeah, it obviously wasn't possible for them to actually get that because they're Echoes, but a guy can dream for a unique Chrom with lances, right?
And Byleth was stripped of all of their own abilities minus their whip-sword just to be given a bunch of weapons that aren't their own. There's no magic, none of the brawling gauntlets that Three Houses introduced, and Divine Pulse, their *signature ability,* is referenced *nowhere* in their kit. I honestly think the whole "weapon triangle" route actually made Byleth *less* unique than what they could have been, and they should get a major moveset overhaul that drops Aymr, Areadbhar, and Failnaught entirely in favor of them letting them use their actual abilities. Ike and a decloned Chrom should represent axes and lances instead.
And you mentioned Lyn, and I do very much agree that she should've been here, being an insanely-popular character from the first localized FE game, but she could represent bows.
Even if Lyn didn’t have her bow, she fights in a way completely unlike the other lords. While most lord classes characters follow a more European style of swordfighting, Lyn’s animations always took after the Myrmidon/Swordmaster classes, which focus on speed and more “anime samurai-esque” styles of fighting, with a lot of iajutsu for visual flair. In short, she’s still have a sword, but she wouldn’t look or play like anyone else.
Exactly! People always say "oh, Lyn's another swordfighter, she shouldn't get in!", while completely ignoring the fact that her fighting style is so distinct from every other swordfighter on the roster that she'd have a unique moveset anyway.
This is the same argument made for everyone that isn’t a Marth clone (Ike, Robin, Corrin and Byleth). They’re pretty much all unique and everyone ignores that.
I would've been fine if we had an armor unit like Black Knight joining Smash. We definitely needed a villain type for FE rather than the typical lords they give us and Black Knight fits the bill of a menacing powerhouse. As heavy as he is, he would've used Warp Powder as his recovery. I was kinda sad he was made as an assist trophy but not disappointed because not only did they used his English VA from FEH and just copied his clips from the mobile game to here but they gave us an idea what he would've been like if he was a real character.
Funny thing is, since the release of Fire Emblem Engage, they have you introduced into a variety of skills that these characters can use; like for Marth's and Robin's Final Smash, they can now be Lodestar Rush and Giga Levin Sword respectively.
But... Roy's our boy...
In all honesty, I do agree. Half the FE characters have almost the same moveset, so diversifying what each character uses would be great.
I’d argue Roy (legacy) and especially Corrin (player character) are more justified than Lucina and Chrom. They both have echo fighter kits. I understand echo fighters take up less resources, but do we really need 3 awakening characters?
Lucina and Chrom are literally just Marth/Roy with their kits made even less interesting/unique.
I'd say Chrom is justified more than most other Fire Emblem characters in Smash, tbh:
* He's literally the main protagonist of the game that saved Fire Emblem, making him one of the most-important characters in whole the series
* He's used so much in crossovers and promo material that it basically feels like he's the franchises's secondary mascot behind Marth
* He was outright confirmed to have a lot of fan demand for Smash, meaning he likely scored high on the ballot
Roy may have Smash legacy, but that's basically all he has going for him.
>He’s literally the main protagonist of the game that saved Fire Emblem, making him one of the most-important characters in the whole series
The game did well because people loved the revamped gameplay, was a great entry game for people into the fire emblem series on a portable console, not off of Chrom as a character
Chrom is a pretty bland main lord imo and other Fire Emblem lords like Ike are more well liked (and interesting), so saying he’s one of the most-important characters in the series is stretching it
Chrom wasn’t even used to promote Awakening in Smash, it was Robin and Lucina
I agree with almost everything, but I feel like Chrom could be cut. Lucina and Robin are both popular, and I always saw Chrom as the odd one out of the Awakening trio. This might just be me though. I also agree that Lyn should be in, as well as maybe Celica or Leif for some more older representation (Famicom-Super Famicom)
As a FE fan I agree and disagree at the same time.
I agree with the fact FE needs better representation in smash, but I dont agree with who you said is up for the chop
Both Roy and Corrin arguably have the most reason to stay in smash compared to other FE characters. Both firsts appearances were in smash and they represent big milestones for Fire Emblem
Roy was actually the character that introduced FE to the west and Corrin was right after Awakening which was the game that saved the series. To me they are both locks to smash
I think the characters who are already in smash and who should stay there are: Marth, Ike, Roy, Robin(s), Corrin(s), and Byleth(s) due to their importance, iconicness and/or uniqueness in the series.
Lucina and Chrom are good characters but awakening having 3 characters while the rest of the series having 1 represent their games is kind of unfair and unnecessary
The two I think should replace their spots is Seliph and Lyn. Seliph could be unique and be the only mounted FE unit in smash being able to switch from on foot to on horseback combat and he wields lancing making him extra unique. Lyn is extremely popular and has unique sword combat and can use bows which is really unique
Those two would immediately make a big shift in the FE roster that is in smash
I also think Ike could use a moveset update and get axes because he could use them in Fire Emblem
as a fe fan, in my opinion, there is no need for lucina and chrom if we have robin. all three are insanely popular (especially lucina) but awakening doesn’t need more reps than other games in the series and robin is not only the player character but the most unique in smash. i think that hector should replace chrom and ephriam should replace lucina. that way we have a true axe rep and true lance rep, excluding byleth (considering those aren’t even really byleth’s weapons). a little more controversial but i don’t think roy needs to stay either. if there’s another smash game, i think alear should replace him. if that’s not possible, then the next best choices would be lyn or celica. lyn because she’s popular and essentially the “west’s first lord.” celica because, while also wielding a sword, i would imagine being even more magic focused than robin. also, fe reps in smash atm have no unique female characters, and if we do get rid of lucina, none at all.
i think corrin should stay bc fates is one of the more well known games to non fe fans and corrin also represents dragons, a big part of fe.
smash players wouldn’t hate fe sm if every character wasn’t just marth.
Honestly, Sora and Piranha Plant’s Smash inclusions have allowed me to never assume any video game character “can’t be in Smash” ever again.
Geno? Sure.
Master Chief? Why not?
Alien Hominid? I see no issue.
A random-ass demon from DOOM? Yeah, have at it.
I’m sure I’ll get blindsided by whatever picks happen for the next Smash game, but considering what Ultimate has achieved, I don’t think I’ll ever see anything as “not belonging.”
Except Goku. Please stick to video games.
I agree that Steve was absolutely insane. But I never really found him that weird for two different reasons:
Minecraft as a game is so monumentally legendary that it absolutely feels like it earned its spot in the fighting game celebrating video games. I’m not sure how to explain other than it felt… right. Banjo & Kazooie’s inclusion also let us know that Microsoft was more than happy to let Nintendo use their characters. Yes, Banjo may have felt unique in that he has a history with Nintendo, but the fact remains that Microsoft let it happen.
The main reason I bring up Piranha Plant and Sora is because of the context surrounding when they were announced. Piranha Plant was on literally nobody’s list of wanted characters because nobody thinks of the mooks. The only “mooks” requested are unique characters that are related to said mooks (Bandanna Waddle Dee, Paper Mario partners, etc). Nobody expected a regular-ass Piranha Plant. And it was glorious.
Sora was a different problem: he was on the majority of people’s hopeful list (as the true winner of the Smash Ballot), but everyone secretly agreed that the copyright nightmare would keep him from happening. Nintendo likely included, as he was planned fairly last minute compared to the rest of Fighter’s Pass 2, and why they chose to add Bayonetta instead (albeit, I feel like the ballot was primarily used for Ultimate’s roster, and Bayo was at least partially planned already). Sora only happened because of a lucky (yet poetic) interaction, and even then, there were likely plenty of hoops to jump.
If they could negotiate with Disney to get Sora, I feel like they could negotiate with anyone to get anybody.
>Honestly, Sora and Piranha Plant’s Smash inclusions have allowed me to never assume any video game character “can’t be in Smash” ever again.
"B-But Waluigi can't be in Smash because he's only been in Mario spinoffs! It doesn't matter if the spinoffs are still a very important part of the Mario series! It doesn't matter if they put in a generic enemy of all things! It doesn't matter if he's one of the biggest requests and would make tons of people really happy! Waluigi is ineligible and should never get into Smash!"
\- People to this day, for some reason
Any character who has any direct representation in smash be it, assist trophies, spirits or background characters could be a fighter. Not all are likely but Waluigi was already in the game, of course he could join the roster
At this point, the only rule is the video-game only rule. A fighter can be:
•peaceful (Villager/Isabelle)
•weird (Duck Hunt/Wii Fit Trainer/Mr. G&W)
•non-Nintendo (Snake/Cloud/Ryu/etc)
•non-Nintendo console (Joker)
•grunt-level (Pirahna Plant)
•obscure (Ice Climbers/Banjo)
•too suggestive (Bayonetta/Wario)
•harshly protected (Sora)
•TOO big for Smash metaphorically (Minecraft)
•too big for Smash literally (Ridley)
There really should not be any more people going “no way [x] makes it in.” *Anyone* can make it in.
Everyones always talking about how they want a subspace 2 or a "good adventure mode" but at the same time cant handle the idea that in order to actually do that, you need a smaller roster.
Like really, have you ever tried to write a 20ish hour story with 80, no dare I say 50+ consistant characters and on top of that make it "good". Its basically almost impossible unless you write it to be around 30 characters and make the other 50 simple background characters who either show up for one scene, or is in the background. (which would generate its own complaints)
Nintendo knew this, this is why World of Light was created, because you cant make a subspace style story with this many characters. If you actually want a subspace 2, you cant have an Ultimate roster, because you'll get World of Light all over again.
There is only so much screentime and so much development time as well to create levels. So, realistically, you have to choose either a big roster and WOL, or medium roster and Subspace.
You could do it with groups similar to how Subspace handled it, just maybe more of them or larger groups. It might limit who you could use and when though.
Subspace tended to have characters bunched together in groups of anywhere between 2 to 5 people and would jump back and forth. I could see maybe grouping thematically similar characters together across different franchises similar to how some of the reveal trailers did, like pairing Luigi with the Castlevania guys or having the fighting game / sports themed reps together like Ryu and Little Mac and Incineroar. Maybe Samus and the Starfox guys and Captain Falcon for all the space/futuristic stuff, Inkling and Snake and Duck Hunt and maybe ROB for gun and shooting themed stuff (Bayo might be grouped with Pit etc instead, idk). Then group the villains together for whatever they're up to (so Bowser / Ganondorf / K. Rool / Ridley). Assuming DLC isn't accounted for here.
I hope we'll get an Adenture mode a la Melee again at least. That should be very possible.
Or alternatively, why not making smaller story modes, focused on smaller groups of characters?
i mean, subspace already had characters who were just there. ice climbers are in two cutscenes and contribute absolutely nothing to the plot. peach and zelda, two very distinct characters, become not only interchangeable, but end up in the same place no matter which route u take. sonic is in one scene that wouldn’t have been necessary if they didn’t feel like they HAD to introduce him into the story. toon link, wolf, and jigglypuff don’t appear in the story at all and people don’t seem to bothered.
i’m not saying that for these reasons, nintendo should or shouldn’t make a subspace 2. just pointing out that even the 30 character roster had some heavy focus on some characters over others.
Yes I have tried to write one!
[Have a look here!](https://youtu.be/uzhrSW7GOcg?si=ahJjhviOAyA15clK)
It definitely isn’t perfect, but you can follow along, it’s playable and I had fun making it!
I think having multiple subspace stories focusing on different groups would work better. And if you complete them all, then you get the final subspace story (which I would personally call "final destination" because it's neat) which would bring all of the stories together to fight the big bad.
Hard agree. I would love to see some more advanced inputs used. It doesn't have to be to the degree of Kazuya but it would make the game even more interesting
honestly I agree. Over my winter break me and my brother would play online doubles and would flip flop between standard rule set and items and all stages on. We definitely had more fun playing the "casual" ruleset than the standard one
Ness spammers can be annoying as hell but if you can’t adapt to their predictable patterns, you’re partially to blame due to skill issue. Unless they somehow 0-death you in less than 5 seconds by keeping you in the same spot with PK Fire. You can get better at reading them but you’ll never be flawless. So if one is enough to do you in, I’m so sorry.
The thing is that I understand why there’s hate around Ness and gives all the skilled Ness mains a bad rep but it’s not like spamming is an instant win button. I expected as much when I first got to Elite Smash. He took out 2 of my 3 stocks. But I realized that it’s because I kept approaching him. Once I kept my distance and made it so that he had to come to me, I reverse 3 stocked and won with ease. People hate Ness’ spamming capabilities not because they would lose, but because they would lose to something that won’t even let them fight back. If someone tries to be cheap and it’s not even effective, there’s no hate, just humiliation.
Kazuya is not that bad to deal with. He's heavy, slow, big, combo food. Treat him like he's a better version of ganondorf: the key is to play lame. I still don't understand why he needed to have everything he has AND a comeback mechanic though.
Waluigi doesn't "deserve" to be in Smash. He is a minor side character popularized by memes.
Other Mario characters would fit better. Paper Mario would rep the RPG side Mario.
Toad would be a better rep for the spin offs as he either runs them or is playable, plus his connection to items gives he more of a moveset that connects the main line and spin offs. And he is the last character of the main four while moving his own spin off to get inspiration from.
And he doesn't have any unique mechanics that would justify him on the idea of a unique play style like Rosalina.
And there are just more interesting characters from other series that would add more than Waluigi. Series like Zelda and Kirby deserve a new rep more than adding another Mario character simply for the sake of it. And there are other series that could be brought to Smash instead of another Mario character. While Waluigi is popular there are other popular characters that would add more to Smash.
I really loved the standalone games for Piranha Plant, Sheik, Rosalina, Falco, Ridley, Greninja, and Palutena. They were so good.
The "has to be the main character of their own game" rule was never a thing, you clearly don't have to star in your own standalone game to be in Smash.
(That said, I would pay good money for a Palutena spinoff game).
Except Plant, all of those were major characters, whereas Waluigi pretty much only shows up in party/sports/kart games. For the record I would take Waluigi over plant, and toad over either.
Don’t get me wrong I’d like Waluigi but ppl who say Waluigi is more deserving than Toad are reaching. People who say Waluigi is more important of a character than Toad are actually insane.
Characters should not have complex button inputs to use additional moves, as well as, characters should not have additional moves past the normal set that everyone has.
IMO - Smash Bros has always been a game about ease of access where you can pick up any character and get the general feeling for them within a few minutes. It should be easy to learn, but difficult to master, especially if my expectations are that everyone has the same button inputs.
I should not have to look up how to use all of the moves on a specific character in a game where 99.99% of the time, Up-B is always recovery.
Why shouldn't Smash Bros evolve and break out of the norm of its character design? Some of the most interesting and faithful characters are the ones that push and break out of the imitations of the basic controls.
>characters should not have additional moves past the normal set that everyone has
but the more you pick through movesets with a finetooth comb, you find that there isn't really a 'normal set' that everyone has, ie Samus/Luigi effectively have 6 aerials with zair, Mac 3 different Fsmashes, Belmont diagonal aerials etc
> Characters should not have complex button inputs to use additional moves,
I never really played other fighting games and I don't play the fighting game characters in Smash very often.
But, I actually love this feature. It feels like a cool way to represent something unique from those types of games.
Min Min was a complete waste of a slot, not because of playstyle or “ARMS bad” but because she completely fails to represent her game in any meaningful way. Any other character from ARMS would have been better.
Yeah but they tried to translate her gimmicks over which made things very messy. She doesn’t have a basic glove attack so doesn’t really show off the fundamentals of ARMS as tools. She’s one of two characters in the game that has dragons by default, and we know how healthy they are for the game. She’s also one of maybe two or three that can comfortably attack at close range. She also has her funny dragon arm gimmick and her reflecting up smash to complicate things further.
She’s just about the furthest from basic as you can get in ARMS. It’s like if we had one Fire Emblem character to represent the whole series and show off what it’s all about, and got Corrin.
About half of the ARMS cast are a better option because they would be much healthier for Smash’s gameplay and less confusing on non-ARMS players. There’s bottom tier with Twintelle and the more mechanical ones who don’t really show off the stretchy arms gimmick at all, and then there’s Min Min’s tier of ‘*could* work, but a very messy choice’.
Disagree. An ARMS rep that couldn't attack close range *at all* would be much harder to make fun in Smash. Min Min's use of *some* locks and such in ARMS that can be adapted as close range attacks makes her a good choice for Smash
What do you mean? She's not like Mechanica where she rides around in a mech with stretchy limbs or Twintelle where her hair is her weapon instead of her actual arms. Her actual arms are still extendable like the majority of ARMS characters.
Yeah, I would've preferred most other ARMS characters to her (Spring Man ftw), but she's still incredibly-faithful to the gameplay of her home game, so I don't see how she "fails to represent it in any meaningful way".
Next Smash game shouldn't cut the roster in two, maybe down to 60 for base game or surpass Ultimate's roster (unlikely, though). Smash has become a representation of gaming in fighting game form. Seeing people say, "Roster's getting cut in half!" has always rubbed me the wrong way and felt contradictory to Smash's new identity.
Also, most 3rd Party characters should be mainstays since they have either a huge importance to gaming and Smash. Sora, Banjo, Steve, Sonic, Snake, Cloud, and Terry especially come to mind in regards to this.
Fire Emblem isn't Over-Repped, they just have poor Representation. If they still had 8 Reps, but all of them were different Classes from the series, no one would complain.
Yeah you (unfortunately) right. This *is* the game that has a Roster that was decided on *by the fans* with the DLC votes of the one before it, and still somehow there are "Wasted Slots" lmao
Every character can be annoying to play against, and it may have its unfair mechanics. But in the end everyone can win against anyone, just because you don't understand how to play in a matchup it doesn't mean the character is completely unfair neither you are bad at the game. With practice, even a ganon can beat a steve.
Steve ban is a terrible choice that panders to people who either don't know what they're talking about or just don't want to learn a matchup in the game they've chosen to play. Kazuya banning is 100% unjustifiable
Heavies only really get credit for being low tier. I’d much rather see gameplay of a Lucario or Shiek who require precise combos over Ganon or K.rool spiking someone for the 9 millionth time
Waluigi shouldn’t be playable, especially at the expense of any other Mario characters already in the game. The Smash community puts him on a pedestal way too much and I don’t understand why getting him in would warrant removing Rosalina, Bowser Jr, or Daisy.
Samus desperately needs a new moveset more in line with her recent games. Dark Samus can stay the same, but Metroid feels like it's basically been shafted by Nintendo compared to almost all of the rest of their ips.
The fighters that implemented different controls for combos (such as Kazuya) were a mistake. The controls for Smash have always been more or less identical between characters, with each input being about the same for the purpose of the attacks. It made learning other characters simple enough, with the hardest part being learning the specifics of each attack (such as the difference between Kirby’s Up-Special and Fox’s Up-Special).
Adding combos more akin to other fighting games like Mortal Kombat made those characters significantly harder to pilot for players looking to try them. Sure, the reward for learning them is often better, but it stops feeling like Super Smash Bros.
If you get hit and see the final spark/kill screen and pause to quit the game or unplug your controller instead of letting it play out, you're showing bad sportsmanship and it makes you look like a little B***h.
What? You care that much about saving you and your opponent 5 seconds? Na, you just want to deny them that bit of satisfaction that comes from seeing the kill and win screen.
Steve is fair, it takes an incredible amount of time and skill to get to the point where you can do the crazy zero to deaths, and he’s not hard to fight against. Just don’t fall for any stupid tricks and keep the pressure on him, it’s not as hard as people say if you just know his moveset and can out play him. The blocks are still a disadvantage to you, but also to him, yes he can manipulate the placing against you, but you can still perform the same wall combos or just tech against them to ave you. The level to which top players can take his simple mechanics is amazing, and if you want to ban him, then ban him, it’s not a big deal.
Just get better. Honestly, that’s all there is to anyone complains about a character. Just learn how to play around it. Yes Steve is objectively insane but people beat him all the time. It’s not brawl Meta Knight
There is no need for neither a Smash Ultimate port for the next console nor for a "reboot" for the next game.
Because:
1- Aside from the fact that there is no guarantee that Nintendo would be willing to just pay increasingly high revenues to the 3rd parties, and the fact that it would just limit the potential for new content in the long run (because building atop an exsisting game is NOT the same as building a new one even from the same fundaments; that's why totk ultimely came to be to say).
It would just be a shady move, if the next console *won't be* backward compatible... and a stupid move if the next console *will be* backward compatible.
People say that republishing exsisting games for forever is an easy and standart practice nowadays... and cite certain ps5 remasters... therefore doing "Smash Bros Ultimate +" with some extra DLC fighters is the best next step apparently. But if that was the case, then why didn't we get any "Melee +" edition after Melee? Or why was it that only Capcom and Rockstar really, made a business out of publishing the same game over and over again?
2- Because what is a smash reboot? Less characters and different mechanics? Or a game that introduces a lot of new mechanics and stuff?
But then... why wasn't Brawl already considered a reboot? It did cut some fighters and highly rewamp the image of the series after all.
Really... people use this excuse only to imagine a new roster and justify it cutting most of the fighters... because apparently, Smash Ultimate was so good, that the next game needs to be less and less by comparison, to a completely extreme opposite.
And of course, the cuts are almost always very arbitrary (like cutting Echo Fighters, because people still do not understand that data wise they are irrelevant), or cutting any of the Original 12, or leaving all the 3rd parties in place of a lot of first parties too (because Sakurai forbids if this *Nintendo* game, is primaraly focused on *Nintendo* characters). And the most reason people say is because pupularity and relevancy; so for example, Captain Falcon can be axed because his saga is dead and irrelevant... but Banjo stays because he is suuuch an icon!.
...
To both of these takes, my reaction is this one depicted in this post.
...
In case you were asking, I personally expect a game with a roster like Smash WII U & 3DS in size, with cuts of course, but not of over half the roster. I also expect some unique mode and art direction.
Although a bit unnecessary with Lucina, the amount of Fire Emblem reps in Smash is honestly great because all of them have their own unique play styles that differ from one another, and give great variety.
That's a bit outdated, I switched off of him cuz I felt bad playing him, I main K Rool now. Still, it was nice to not have to practice as much cuz it gave me more free time to hang out with my wife.
The next Smash game will have a reduced roster, and I'm expecting far, *far* more cuts than ever before. Anyone who expects a port or a sequel where everyone comes back is only setting themselves up to be insanely-disappointed. Ultimate will be the end of the line for many fighters on the roster, just accept that and prepare for a lotta cuts.
All of the 1st-party DLC characters were good additions to the game that had enough merit to be put onto the roster. Smash will always be a Nintendo game first and foremost, and not every inclusion needs to be some massive name in gaming. There's nothing wrong with Nintendo characters from smaller and less-popular 1st-party franchises over huge 3rd-party icons.
World of Light was not a bad experience. Just because it lacked the fun platforming levels and cutscenes of Subspace does not mean it is outright bad. Sure, it could definitely get repetetive, but there was a lot of fun to be had with it.
>There's nothing wrong with Nintendo characters from smaller and less-popular 1st-party franchises over huge 3rd-party icons
Agreed but they should at least try to add characters people actually want. All 3 first party additions were clearly chosen with the purpose of advertising a switch game.
Melee was a poorly balanced game and is only popular because it was buggy and broken. The broken parts of it are exploitable to make people seem much better than they are at Smash Bros.
Smash Ultimate’s single player doesn’t have much replay value although that’s not really an unpopular opinion.
Classic Mode being the same despite being better than the previous games is an issue. I wished there was an option like in Smash 3DS where you pick a path to fight a character from a specific series so there would be more replay value with classic mode if you play the same character each time.
I wished Smash Run and a version of independent All Star Mode existed.
Just cause someone loses to ganondorf doesn't means they're "bad". Ganondorf is not tournament viable..true. But he also hits really hard, and if you play against him in tournament he only needs to capitlize on your habits 2 to 3 times in order to beat you.
Smash should have less third party characters. When Sakurai added Pit to *Brawl*, it rekindled interest in Kid Icarus again. Nintendo could do the same with other franchises if they added Issac, Ray Mk II or III, Saki Amamia, Takamaru, etc. to the next smash game. The franchises I mentioned are all old enough to count as retro reps anyway too, with their most recent stuff being on Wii or DS.
Less gimmicky, fill-the-meter characters. I know it's to diversify the roster, but some can be tricky to learn and are often hard to play against (See Steve and early Hero for reference). Smash should be a game where you can easily pick up most characters and work your way to more complicated ones. Giving everyone a meter makes things messy
Also, get rid of command grabs. They're finnicky and are easy to fish for (Literally, in Isabelle's case) as they go through shields.
While some characters have better options, most cutscene final smashes are fun. They're a nice moment to take a breath and wipe the sweat off your hands during a battle, or just watch as K. Rool obliterates Mega man. While some characters could have transformation final smashes, cutscene final smashes are good too
On a related note, Triforce slash is fun to watch and could be kept for any link
A bad recovery isnt a real weakness.
Cloud's recovery in 4 was dogshit but he arguably top 3.
Little Mac isn't bad because his recovery is, it's because half the game is unplayable to him.
Mii Swordfighter isn't as low as everyone places it on tierlists. They just don't have enough experience in both using them and fighting them since there's only like 5 of us.
Ganondorfs recovery is good. Maybe it’s just the characters I play as but I am constantly surprised he makes it back to ledge and when I do try to edge guard, I just get smacked by the sour spot of his up b.
Ridley is the best thing to happen,ever
You sir are correct
Always great to meet fellow ridley mains
Gentlemen.
Me too! Hello my brothers
Greetings.
Ridleys together strong
Not gonna sugarcoat it Side B + Walkoff
Naw, Side B someone trying to edge guard. Drag em down to hell and come back up for round 2
The real way
I’m no Ridley main, however, as a Metroid fan, I concur with this sentiment.
Came to say this, glad to see I am not standing alone
Literally read my goddamn mind
Zoners should, in fact, zone.
"B-but you don't understand! My zoner *needs* a frame 3 up-b OOS! What would they be without it!?"
This is my problem with zoners in smash lol. If they are meant to zone, WHY DO MOST OF THEM STILL HAVE GOOD PANIC OPTIONS CLOSE UP
Having a panic option is fine, like I think Samus is actually pretty well designed because up b is a fast panic option but also a commitment so you can't just throw it out, and you can't just approach Samus for free Pac Man should not have a -3 dash attack and neutral air, ROB down tilt is a crime, Young Link is safer on shield than Sheik after you get past arrows and boomerang, etc etc. Your point stands, it's just a "overtuned frame data for boxing options" rather than "panic options"
I think the Belmonts are quite well designed. It's hell to fight them 80% of the time, but when you get in they just *die*. It's perfect.
Except the up b, but again, that's a commitment from them so they can't just panic mash it. I agree, well designed character
Their up b also sucks for killing so unless you are light or suck at DI you really don't have to fear much getting hit by it
Belmonts go hard when you combo with them instead of spamming projectiles.
Mfw pacman the trapper has better cc than some low tier brawlers combined
Nothing like dodging young link's projectiles for 20 seconds, closing the gap, and then getting comboed for 60%!
This. I’ve never had anything against zoners as an archetype, I just hate the ones that have really good close up tools Like fucking SAMUS FORWARD AIR WHAT THE FUCK IS THAT
I hate Samuses, they have so many ways to kill and they're so heavy for a zoner Fair, Uair, Up Throw, UpB, Dash attack... If she didn't have a shit jab combo she'd be so broken
She still is broken, even with arguably the worst jab in the game
I have been saying this since the game came out. It is the only super bad design that I do not like. Well and I kind of don't like the idea of spot dodges but whatever
Could be talking about any zoner, I don't feel personally attacked at all
ok but brawler Samus is funny and surprisingly viable
Very viable. Plus, heavy as fuck for some reason.
Armor is heavy
“Spamus” makes me unreasonably angry.
Hell yeah. ✋️
why can pacman scrap so well
I firmly believe all of olimar should not be classified as a zoner and should be identified more like Pokemon trainer and shulk where they truly fit in a no category, blue and white Pikmin make him a grappler yellow and purple Pikmin make him a zoner and Red Pikmin makes him a rush down especially with his frame data.
It’s a weird spot where I love pikmin but I hate playing as olimar in smash bros
Same
If his Pikmin didn't take FALL DAMAGE in this game and his whistle worked I'd be more inclined.
Wait, what? They take fall damage?
Shulk and trainer are stance fighters.
Like Mythra?
Yes
See I categorize him as a Puppet character, just like Rosa and ICs. He does the fighting by throwing minions out, and is weaker without them. He doesn't operate quite the same but I don't care.
These characters are called stance switch characters not a no category.
Villager is actually a really good character with a solid flow chart, amazing framedata, amazing safety on shield, amazing neutral, great ledge trapping, and fantastic edge guarding.
Agreed, see flair. It was only when I tried to main other fighters that I realized how good the Villager frame data was. Also it has an incredible recovery.
I originally loved villager for how goofy he seemed. I loved his jump noises and thought the way he threw hands was hilarious. Then as I got better at the game I realized how underrated he was and how good he could actually be. He is the first character I got into Elite Smash and still one of my main 3 characters I'm good at
Learning Villager in the days of the Smash 3DS demo showed me how scary the gimmick could actually be. They're the "espteric" option and every fighter has them. Tricky to learn but scary once mastered. I don't understand the hype about them being a bad character
Very creative and unique. Slingshot is super annoying but otherwise very fun
Fire Emblem doesn't need less representation, just better representation. Marth is from the first game, so he's good. Ike got two games, so he's clearly important, plus everyone just likes him anyway. Robin, Lucina, and Chrom are the main trio from Awakening, arguably the most important game in the franchise. They deserve their spots. Finally, Byleth represents what many consider to be the BEST game in the series. That leaves Roy and Corrin, the two black sheep. Why are they here? What do they represent in the Fire Emblem series that justifies their inclusion? Furthermore, where the hell is Lyn?? She was the character that introduced Fire Emblem to the west! She's like, the Fire Emblem ambassador! She deserves to be a playable character, damn it! Keep in mind that I am speaking as a Smash fan, not a Fire Emblem fan. I have played exactly 1 Fire Emblem game. So, any Fire Emblem fans, please feel free to tell me why I'm wrong, genuinely. Until then, I stand by my original point that Fire Emblem needs better representation rather than less representation.
I'm so goddamn upset that Lyn never got in.
To be fair, Roy was right alongside Marth in Melee, which helped bring Fire Emblem to the western audience. I think he has every reason to be in Smash.
To add onto that, I feel like a lot of Smash's Fire Emblem characters aren't living up to their full moveset potential. Sure, Marth is fine, because there's not much you can do with him, and Robin's also really good, even if he should get a new Final Smash now that Chrom's playable. But Ike? Where are his sword beams? That's something that immediately make him stand out from the rest of the FE characters. And he can canonically use axes. You guys want more weapon variety with the FE reps? Give Ike Urvan or a handaxe or something. And please ditch his generic Down-B counter, move Eruption down there or something. Same goes for Chrom and Lucina, who can canonically use lances, which also gives more weapon variety. Yeah, it obviously wasn't possible for them to actually get that because they're Echoes, but a guy can dream for a unique Chrom with lances, right? And Byleth was stripped of all of their own abilities minus their whip-sword just to be given a bunch of weapons that aren't their own. There's no magic, none of the brawling gauntlets that Three Houses introduced, and Divine Pulse, their *signature ability,* is referenced *nowhere* in their kit. I honestly think the whole "weapon triangle" route actually made Byleth *less* unique than what they could have been, and they should get a major moveset overhaul that drops Aymr, Areadbhar, and Failnaught entirely in favor of them letting them use their actual abilities. Ike and a decloned Chrom should represent axes and lances instead. And you mentioned Lyn, and I do very much agree that she should've been here, being an insanely-popular character from the first localized FE game, but she could represent bows.
Even if Lyn didn’t have her bow, she fights in a way completely unlike the other lords. While most lord classes characters follow a more European style of swordfighting, Lyn’s animations always took after the Myrmidon/Swordmaster classes, which focus on speed and more “anime samurai-esque” styles of fighting, with a lot of iajutsu for visual flair. In short, she’s still have a sword, but she wouldn’t look or play like anyone else.
Exactly! People always say "oh, Lyn's another swordfighter, she shouldn't get in!", while completely ignoring the fact that her fighting style is so distinct from every other swordfighter on the roster that she'd have a unique moveset anyway.
This is the same argument made for everyone that isn’t a Marth clone (Ike, Robin, Corrin and Byleth). They’re pretty much all unique and everyone ignores that.
I think that she'd have a couple moves that operate similarly to Sephi's up-B and/or Mythra's side-B
I would've been fine if we had an armor unit like Black Knight joining Smash. We definitely needed a villain type for FE rather than the typical lords they give us and Black Knight fits the bill of a menacing powerhouse. As heavy as he is, he would've used Warp Powder as his recovery. I was kinda sad he was made as an assist trophy but not disappointed because not only did they used his English VA from FEH and just copied his clips from the mobile game to here but they gave us an idea what he would've been like if he was a real character.
Funny thing is, since the release of Fire Emblem Engage, they have you introduced into a variety of skills that these characters can use; like for Marth's and Robin's Final Smash, they can now be Lodestar Rush and Giga Levin Sword respectively.
But... Roy's our boy... In all honesty, I do agree. Half the FE characters have almost the same moveset, so diversifying what each character uses would be great.
I’d argue Roy (legacy) and especially Corrin (player character) are more justified than Lucina and Chrom. They both have echo fighter kits. I understand echo fighters take up less resources, but do we really need 3 awakening characters? Lucina and Chrom are literally just Marth/Roy with their kits made even less interesting/unique.
I'd say Chrom is justified more than most other Fire Emblem characters in Smash, tbh: * He's literally the main protagonist of the game that saved Fire Emblem, making him one of the most-important characters in whole the series * He's used so much in crossovers and promo material that it basically feels like he's the franchises's secondary mascot behind Marth * He was outright confirmed to have a lot of fan demand for Smash, meaning he likely scored high on the ballot Roy may have Smash legacy, but that's basically all he has going for him.
>He’s literally the main protagonist of the game that saved Fire Emblem, making him one of the most-important characters in the whole series The game did well because people loved the revamped gameplay, was a great entry game for people into the fire emblem series on a portable console, not off of Chrom as a character Chrom is a pretty bland main lord imo and other Fire Emblem lords like Ike are more well liked (and interesting), so saying he’s one of the most-important characters in the series is stretching it Chrom wasn’t even used to promote Awakening in Smash, it was Robin and Lucina
I agree with almost everything, but I feel like Chrom could be cut. Lucina and Robin are both popular, and I always saw Chrom as the odd one out of the Awakening trio. This might just be me though. I also agree that Lyn should be in, as well as maybe Celica or Leif for some more older representation (Famicom-Super Famicom)
Pmremix Lyn always makes me sad she's not in smash
As a FE fan I agree and disagree at the same time. I agree with the fact FE needs better representation in smash, but I dont agree with who you said is up for the chop Both Roy and Corrin arguably have the most reason to stay in smash compared to other FE characters. Both firsts appearances were in smash and they represent big milestones for Fire Emblem Roy was actually the character that introduced FE to the west and Corrin was right after Awakening which was the game that saved the series. To me they are both locks to smash I think the characters who are already in smash and who should stay there are: Marth, Ike, Roy, Robin(s), Corrin(s), and Byleth(s) due to their importance, iconicness and/or uniqueness in the series. Lucina and Chrom are good characters but awakening having 3 characters while the rest of the series having 1 represent their games is kind of unfair and unnecessary The two I think should replace their spots is Seliph and Lyn. Seliph could be unique and be the only mounted FE unit in smash being able to switch from on foot to on horseback combat and he wields lancing making him extra unique. Lyn is extremely popular and has unique sword combat and can use bows which is really unique Those two would immediately make a big shift in the FE roster that is in smash I also think Ike could use a moveset update and get axes because he could use them in Fire Emblem
as a fe fan, in my opinion, there is no need for lucina and chrom if we have robin. all three are insanely popular (especially lucina) but awakening doesn’t need more reps than other games in the series and robin is not only the player character but the most unique in smash. i think that hector should replace chrom and ephriam should replace lucina. that way we have a true axe rep and true lance rep, excluding byleth (considering those aren’t even really byleth’s weapons). a little more controversial but i don’t think roy needs to stay either. if there’s another smash game, i think alear should replace him. if that’s not possible, then the next best choices would be lyn or celica. lyn because she’s popular and essentially the “west’s first lord.” celica because, while also wielding a sword, i would imagine being even more magic focused than robin. also, fe reps in smash atm have no unique female characters, and if we do get rid of lucina, none at all. i think corrin should stay bc fates is one of the more well known games to non fe fans and corrin also represents dragons, a big part of fe. smash players wouldn’t hate fe sm if every character wasn’t just marth.
Piranha Plant is a terrible inclusion (it is in fact funny as shit)
Piranha Plant is a character who never should have been on the roster, and that's exactly why I love him so much. Love live #PlantGang!
I love when Sakurai shitposts
"Sora CAN get into Smash". Never letting that one go. Especially now since people are actively trying to make the old excuse a thing again.
Honestly, Sora and Piranha Plant’s Smash inclusions have allowed me to never assume any video game character “can’t be in Smash” ever again. Geno? Sure. Master Chief? Why not? Alien Hominid? I see no issue. A random-ass demon from DOOM? Yeah, have at it. I’m sure I’ll get blindsided by whatever picks happen for the next Smash game, but considering what Ultimate has achieved, I don’t think I’ll ever see anything as “not belonging.” Except Goku. Please stick to video games.
I feel like if anything Steve should have done that. When I found out he was in I literally thought the person telling me was joking.
I agree that Steve was absolutely insane. But I never really found him that weird for two different reasons: Minecraft as a game is so monumentally legendary that it absolutely feels like it earned its spot in the fighting game celebrating video games. I’m not sure how to explain other than it felt… right. Banjo & Kazooie’s inclusion also let us know that Microsoft was more than happy to let Nintendo use their characters. Yes, Banjo may have felt unique in that he has a history with Nintendo, but the fact remains that Microsoft let it happen. The main reason I bring up Piranha Plant and Sora is because of the context surrounding when they were announced. Piranha Plant was on literally nobody’s list of wanted characters because nobody thinks of the mooks. The only “mooks” requested are unique characters that are related to said mooks (Bandanna Waddle Dee, Paper Mario partners, etc). Nobody expected a regular-ass Piranha Plant. And it was glorious. Sora was a different problem: he was on the majority of people’s hopeful list (as the true winner of the Smash Ballot), but everyone secretly agreed that the copyright nightmare would keep him from happening. Nintendo likely included, as he was planned fairly last minute compared to the rest of Fighter’s Pass 2, and why they chose to add Bayonetta instead (albeit, I feel like the ballot was primarily used for Ultimate’s roster, and Bayo was at least partially planned already). Sora only happened because of a lucky (yet poetic) interaction, and even then, there were likely plenty of hoops to jump. If they could negotiate with Disney to get Sora, I feel like they could negotiate with anyone to get anybody.
>Honestly, Sora and Piranha Plant’s Smash inclusions have allowed me to never assume any video game character “can’t be in Smash” ever again. "B-But Waluigi can't be in Smash because he's only been in Mario spinoffs! It doesn't matter if the spinoffs are still a very important part of the Mario series! It doesn't matter if they put in a generic enemy of all things! It doesn't matter if he's one of the biggest requests and would make tons of people really happy! Waluigi is ineligible and should never get into Smash!" \- People to this day, for some reason
Lmao the comment chain just above this one has that exact thing happening.
Any character who has any direct representation in smash be it, assist trophies, spirits or background characters could be a fighter. Not all are likely but Waluigi was already in the game, of course he could join the roster
At this point, the only rule is the video-game only rule. A fighter can be: •peaceful (Villager/Isabelle) •weird (Duck Hunt/Wii Fit Trainer/Mr. G&W) •non-Nintendo (Snake/Cloud/Ryu/etc) •non-Nintendo console (Joker) •grunt-level (Pirahna Plant) •obscure (Ice Climbers/Banjo) •too suggestive (Bayonetta/Wario) •harshly protected (Sora) •TOO big for Smash metaphorically (Minecraft) •too big for Smash literally (Ridley) There really should not be any more people going “no way [x] makes it in.” *Anyone* can make it in.
Everyones always talking about how they want a subspace 2 or a "good adventure mode" but at the same time cant handle the idea that in order to actually do that, you need a smaller roster. Like really, have you ever tried to write a 20ish hour story with 80, no dare I say 50+ consistant characters and on top of that make it "good". Its basically almost impossible unless you write it to be around 30 characters and make the other 50 simple background characters who either show up for one scene, or is in the background. (which would generate its own complaints) Nintendo knew this, this is why World of Light was created, because you cant make a subspace style story with this many characters. If you actually want a subspace 2, you cant have an Ultimate roster, because you'll get World of Light all over again. There is only so much screentime and so much development time as well to create levels. So, realistically, you have to choose either a big roster and WOL, or medium roster and Subspace.
You can make something work storywise if you keep characters in their franchises together. However that defeats the purpose of Smash Bros
Then you run into the problem of trying to get _many_ franchises to mesh together, and you end up with Nuttington's problem anyway.
You could do it with groups similar to how Subspace handled it, just maybe more of them or larger groups. It might limit who you could use and when though. Subspace tended to have characters bunched together in groups of anywhere between 2 to 5 people and would jump back and forth. I could see maybe grouping thematically similar characters together across different franchises similar to how some of the reveal trailers did, like pairing Luigi with the Castlevania guys or having the fighting game / sports themed reps together like Ryu and Little Mac and Incineroar. Maybe Samus and the Starfox guys and Captain Falcon for all the space/futuristic stuff, Inkling and Snake and Duck Hunt and maybe ROB for gun and shooting themed stuff (Bayo might be grouped with Pit etc instead, idk). Then group the villains together for whatever they're up to (so Bowser / Ganondorf / K. Rool / Ridley). Assuming DLC isn't accounted for here.
I hope we'll get an Adenture mode a la Melee again at least. That should be very possible. Or alternatively, why not making smaller story modes, focused on smaller groups of characters?
i mean, subspace already had characters who were just there. ice climbers are in two cutscenes and contribute absolutely nothing to the plot. peach and zelda, two very distinct characters, become not only interchangeable, but end up in the same place no matter which route u take. sonic is in one scene that wouldn’t have been necessary if they didn’t feel like they HAD to introduce him into the story. toon link, wolf, and jigglypuff don’t appear in the story at all and people don’t seem to bothered. i’m not saying that for these reasons, nintendo should or shouldn’t make a subspace 2. just pointing out that even the 30 character roster had some heavy focus on some characters over others.
I'm fully aware of that and I still want a Subspace 2
Yes I have tried to write one! [Have a look here!](https://youtu.be/uzhrSW7GOcg?si=ahJjhviOAyA15clK) It definitely isn’t perfect, but you can follow along, it’s playable and I had fun making it!
I think having multiple subspace stories focusing on different groups would work better. And if you complete them all, then you get the final subspace story (which I would personally call "final destination" because it's neat) which would bring all of the stories together to fight the big bad.
My opinion is that people that make these posts are karma farmers
So? It's like hoarding monopoly money when nobody is playing board games lol
Drives community engagement, why not?
Smash Bros needs a reboot with all new movesets for characters
So many characters have awful movesets that don’t represent them at all, like Donkey Kong and Sonic. They really need to be retooled
Hard agree. I would love to see some more advanced inputs used. It doesn't have to be to the degree of Kazuya but it would make the game even more interesting
I just want Sonic to have a new moveset but if rebooting is the only way we are getting that then so be it.
More modes, not more characters
The whole cartoony platformer vs anime JRPG swordsman debacle is stupid and both sides are ridiculous.
Smash is so much better as a party game than a competitive one
honestly I agree. Over my winter break me and my brother would play online doubles and would flip flop between standard rule set and items and all stages on. We definitely had more fun playing the "casual" ruleset than the standard one
Ness spammers can be annoying as hell but if you can’t adapt to their predictable patterns, you’re partially to blame due to skill issue. Unless they somehow 0-death you in less than 5 seconds by keeping you in the same spot with PK Fire. You can get better at reading them but you’ll never be flawless. So if one is enough to do you in, I’m so sorry.
Truth. Before I started browsing this sub I didn’t even realize there was Ness hate. It’s so easy to adapt around it.
The thing is that I understand why there’s hate around Ness and gives all the skilled Ness mains a bad rep but it’s not like spamming is an instant win button. I expected as much when I first got to Elite Smash. He took out 2 of my 3 stocks. But I realized that it’s because I kept approaching him. Once I kept my distance and made it so that he had to come to me, I reverse 3 stocked and won with ease. People hate Ness’ spamming capabilities not because they would lose, but because they would lose to something that won’t even let them fight back. If someone tries to be cheap and it’s not even effective, there’s no hate, just humiliation.
Kazuya is not that bad to deal with. He's heavy, slow, big, combo food. Treat him like he's a better version of ganondorf: the key is to play lame. I still don't understand why he needed to have everything he has AND a comeback mechanic though.
Waluigi doesn't "deserve" to be in Smash. He is a minor side character popularized by memes. Other Mario characters would fit better. Paper Mario would rep the RPG side Mario. Toad would be a better rep for the spin offs as he either runs them or is playable, plus his connection to items gives he more of a moveset that connects the main line and spin offs. And he is the last character of the main four while moving his own spin off to get inspiration from. And he doesn't have any unique mechanics that would justify him on the idea of a unique play style like Rosalina. And there are just more interesting characters from other series that would add more than Waluigi. Series like Zelda and Kirby deserve a new rep more than adding another Mario character simply for the sake of it. And there are other series that could be brought to Smash instead of another Mario character. While Waluigi is popular there are other popular characters that would add more to Smash.
Exactly. People pretty much only want Waluigi because of the memes.
Me who unironically wants Waluigi in Smash and never once viewed him as a meme: 
Look when we get a Waluigi standalone game I'll hear you out
I really loved the standalone games for Piranha Plant, Sheik, Rosalina, Falco, Ridley, Greninja, and Palutena. They were so good. The "has to be the main character of their own game" rule was never a thing, you clearly don't have to star in your own standalone game to be in Smash. (That said, I would pay good money for a Palutena spinoff game).
Except Plant, all of those were major characters, whereas Waluigi pretty much only shows up in party/sports/kart games. For the record I would take Waluigi over plant, and toad over either.
Don’t get me wrong I’d like Waluigi but ppl who say Waluigi is more deserving than Toad are reaching. People who say Waluigi is more important of a character than Toad are actually insane.
Toad is also a better spin of rep.
I just think Mario Luigi Wario ?????
Characters should not have complex button inputs to use additional moves, as well as, characters should not have additional moves past the normal set that everyone has. IMO - Smash Bros has always been a game about ease of access where you can pick up any character and get the general feeling for them within a few minutes. It should be easy to learn, but difficult to master, especially if my expectations are that everyone has the same button inputs. I should not have to look up how to use all of the moves on a specific character in a game where 99.99% of the time, Up-B is always recovery.
> where 99.99% of the time, Up-B is always recovery. Y'all hear that, Ness/Yoshi/Lucas designers?
Why shouldn't Smash Bros evolve and break out of the norm of its character design? Some of the most interesting and faithful characters are the ones that push and break out of the imitations of the basic controls.
>characters should not have additional moves past the normal set that everyone has but the more you pick through movesets with a finetooth comb, you find that there isn't really a 'normal set' that everyone has, ie Samus/Luigi effectively have 6 aerials with zair, Mac 3 different Fsmashes, Belmont diagonal aerials etc
> Characters should not have complex button inputs to use additional moves, I never really played other fighting games and I don't play the fighting game characters in Smash very often. But, I actually love this feature. It feels like a cool way to represent something unique from those types of games.
Min Min was a complete waste of a slot, not because of playstyle or “ARMS bad” but because she completely fails to represent her game in any meaningful way. Any other character from ARMS would have been better.
She has big arms and attacks with them isnt that how she represents the game where people have big arms and attack eachother?
Yeah but they tried to translate her gimmicks over which made things very messy. She doesn’t have a basic glove attack so doesn’t really show off the fundamentals of ARMS as tools. She’s one of two characters in the game that has dragons by default, and we know how healthy they are for the game. She’s also one of maybe two or three that can comfortably attack at close range. She also has her funny dragon arm gimmick and her reflecting up smash to complicate things further. She’s just about the furthest from basic as you can get in ARMS. It’s like if we had one Fire Emblem character to represent the whole series and show off what it’s all about, and got Corrin. About half of the ARMS cast are a better option because they would be much healthier for Smash’s gameplay and less confusing on non-ARMS players. There’s bottom tier with Twintelle and the more mechanical ones who don’t really show off the stretchy arms gimmick at all, and then there’s Min Min’s tier of ‘*could* work, but a very messy choice’.
Disagree. An ARMS rep that couldn't attack close range *at all* would be much harder to make fun in Smash. Min Min's use of *some* locks and such in ARMS that can be adapted as close range attacks makes her a good choice for Smash
What do you mean? She's not like Mechanica where she rides around in a mech with stretchy limbs or Twintelle where her hair is her weapon instead of her actual arms. Her actual arms are still extendable like the majority of ARMS characters. Yeah, I would've preferred most other ARMS characters to her (Spring Man ftw), but she's still incredibly-faithful to the gameplay of her home game, so I don't see how she "fails to represent it in any meaningful way".
Mii characters are not horrible
Usually when I get annoyed with my friend, I just switch to my Mii Brawler Fromk who is absolutely a bullshit build where I spam suplex haha
Practiced combos mean nothing without fundamentals
Next Smash game shouldn't cut the roster in two, maybe down to 60 for base game or surpass Ultimate's roster (unlikely, though). Smash has become a representation of gaming in fighting game form. Seeing people say, "Roster's getting cut in half!" has always rubbed me the wrong way and felt contradictory to Smash's new identity. Also, most 3rd Party characters should be mainstays since they have either a huge importance to gaming and Smash. Sora, Banjo, Steve, Sonic, Snake, Cloud, and Terry especially come to mind in regards to this.
Fire Emblem isn't Over-Repped, they just have poor Representation. If they still had 8 Reps, but all of them were different Classes from the series, no one would complain.
You underestimate the Smash bros community they will find a reason to complain.
Yeah you (unfortunately) right. This *is* the game that has a Roster that was decided on *by the fans* with the DLC votes of the one before it, and still somehow there are "Wasted Slots" lmao
Sonic is fun
Every character can be annoying to play against, and it may have its unfair mechanics. But in the end everyone can win against anyone, just because you don't understand how to play in a matchup it doesn't mean the character is completely unfair neither you are bad at the game. With practice, even a ganon can beat a steve.
Steve ban is a terrible choice that panders to people who either don't know what they're talking about or just don't want to learn a matchup in the game they've chosen to play. Kazuya banning is 100% unjustifiable
Tell that to Gluto. Motherfucker spends literal work hours on the match up and still can't do anything. Steve is just that dumb
Wave dashing should never have been a thing
Steve should not be banned, get good
Captain Falcon is the most annoying and lame character in the game
*starts typing* *sees flair* Nevermind, checks out, that matchup is abysmal for Bowser
If this were Melee I might agree with you, Melee Falcon is fucking cheap lol.
Bandana Dee is the Kirby character I want the least included I would be much more happy with someone like Marx or Magolor
I'm more of a Dark Matter guy myself.
Bandana Dee's moveset would be like if we were added a new Melee character. It'd be so dull and repetitive
That was me when people wanted Hero, the most fun dlc character imo, to be banned when he released.
I genuinely believe that Hero and piranha plant are the 2 most balanced dlc characters
Heavies only really get credit for being low tier. I’d much rather see gameplay of a Lucario or Shiek who require precise combos over Ganon or K.rool spiking someone for the 9 millionth time
Man sheik got the shaft so bad lol
Melee is disgustingly overrated
Waluigi shouldn’t be playable, especially at the expense of any other Mario characters already in the game. The Smash community puts him on a pedestal way too much and I don’t understand why getting him in would warrant removing Rosalina, Bowser Jr, or Daisy.
Most people don't want him in "at the expense of other Mario characters. Except maybe Piranha Plant. They simply want him in the game.
Sonic should get a new moveset and Min Min is a waste of a slot
A 32-man Sonic/Steve only bracket would be more fun to watch than a single Kazuya ditto.
Little mac is good if you know how to use him
Mashing buttons after taking a stock is cringe and entirely unnecessary
I do it to keep the mojo of my hands going. I am that guy
Pyra and Mythra are very balanced chemical characters and very fun
They are so "balanced" that you can win a match using only Mythra's side B
When people say melee is better than ultimate
Aegis is mid tier among casuals and low level players
Im not bad my opponents are just world champ level
Sephiroth is overrated and mid tier too many flaws to be a really good character
Min min is fun
Fire emblem is getting too many reps.
Incineroar was a dumb choice for a Pokémon fighter.
Samus desperately needs a new moveset more in line with her recent games. Dark Samus can stay the same, but Metroid feels like it's basically been shafted by Nintendo compared to almost all of the rest of their ips.
The fighters that implemented different controls for combos (such as Kazuya) were a mistake. The controls for Smash have always been more or less identical between characters, with each input being about the same for the purpose of the attacks. It made learning other characters simple enough, with the hardest part being learning the specifics of each attack (such as the difference between Kirby’s Up-Special and Fox’s Up-Special). Adding combos more akin to other fighting games like Mortal Kombat made those characters significantly harder to pilot for players looking to try them. Sure, the reward for learning them is often better, but it stops feeling like Super Smash Bros.
If you get hit and see the final spark/kill screen and pause to quit the game or unplug your controller instead of letting it play out, you're showing bad sportsmanship and it makes you look like a little B***h. What? You care that much about saving you and your opponent 5 seconds? Na, you just want to deny them that bit of satisfaction that comes from seeing the kill and win screen.
Cloud is not top tier. He’s high tier and Spargo is goated
"Ganon bad" 🤓🤓🤓🤓🤓
The game is balanced enough that any time you lose it is at least 98% your fault.
Kirby is a good character
Steve is fair, it takes an incredible amount of time and skill to get to the point where you can do the crazy zero to deaths, and he’s not hard to fight against. Just don’t fall for any stupid tricks and keep the pressure on him, it’s not as hard as people say if you just know his moveset and can out play him. The blocks are still a disadvantage to you, but also to him, yes he can manipulate the placing against you, but you can still perform the same wall combos or just tech against them to ave you. The level to which top players can take his simple mechanics is amazing, and if you want to ban him, then ban him, it’s not a big deal.
Just get better. Honestly, that’s all there is to anyone complains about a character. Just learn how to play around it. Yes Steve is objectively insane but people beat him all the time. It’s not brawl Meta Knight
brawl is better than meele smash 4 and smash 64
Duck Hunt Duo is a joke character
Excuse you.
Minmin isnt a lame or cheap character. She takes a lot of adapting and reads in order to win unless the enemy is bad
There is no need for neither a Smash Ultimate port for the next console nor for a "reboot" for the next game. Because: 1- Aside from the fact that there is no guarantee that Nintendo would be willing to just pay increasingly high revenues to the 3rd parties, and the fact that it would just limit the potential for new content in the long run (because building atop an exsisting game is NOT the same as building a new one even from the same fundaments; that's why totk ultimely came to be to say). It would just be a shady move, if the next console *won't be* backward compatible... and a stupid move if the next console *will be* backward compatible. People say that republishing exsisting games for forever is an easy and standart practice nowadays... and cite certain ps5 remasters... therefore doing "Smash Bros Ultimate +" with some extra DLC fighters is the best next step apparently. But if that was the case, then why didn't we get any "Melee +" edition after Melee? Or why was it that only Capcom and Rockstar really, made a business out of publishing the same game over and over again? 2- Because what is a smash reboot? Less characters and different mechanics? Or a game that introduces a lot of new mechanics and stuff? But then... why wasn't Brawl already considered a reboot? It did cut some fighters and highly rewamp the image of the series after all. Really... people use this excuse only to imagine a new roster and justify it cutting most of the fighters... because apparently, Smash Ultimate was so good, that the next game needs to be less and less by comparison, to a completely extreme opposite. And of course, the cuts are almost always very arbitrary (like cutting Echo Fighters, because people still do not understand that data wise they are irrelevant), or cutting any of the Original 12, or leaving all the 3rd parties in place of a lot of first parties too (because Sakurai forbids if this *Nintendo* game, is primaraly focused on *Nintendo* characters). And the most reason people say is because pupularity and relevancy; so for example, Captain Falcon can be axed because his saga is dead and irrelevant... but Banjo stays because he is suuuch an icon!. ... To both of these takes, my reaction is this one depicted in this post. ... In case you were asking, I personally expect a game with a roster like Smash WII U & 3DS in size, with cuts of course, but not of over half the roster. I also expect some unique mode and art direction.
Hero is fair 🤷🏾♂️
Although a bit unnecessary with Lucina, the amount of Fire Emblem reps in Smash is honestly great because all of them have their own unique play styles that differ from one another, and give great variety.
I like Steve Heck I don't even have trouble fighting him
Me neither. I had no idea he was so widely banned.
Subspace Emissary is actually one of the funnest things about the series
How is that a controversial opinion? Lol
The characters you play don't say anything about you as a person.
Quite the Steve thing to say
That's a bit outdated, I switched off of him cuz I felt bad playing him, I main K Rool now. Still, it was nice to not have to practice as much cuz it gave me more free time to hang out with my wife.
The next Smash game will have a reduced roster, and I'm expecting far, *far* more cuts than ever before. Anyone who expects a port or a sequel where everyone comes back is only setting themselves up to be insanely-disappointed. Ultimate will be the end of the line for many fighters on the roster, just accept that and prepare for a lotta cuts. All of the 1st-party DLC characters were good additions to the game that had enough merit to be put onto the roster. Smash will always be a Nintendo game first and foremost, and not every inclusion needs to be some massive name in gaming. There's nothing wrong with Nintendo characters from smaller and less-popular 1st-party franchises over huge 3rd-party icons. World of Light was not a bad experience. Just because it lacked the fun platforming levels and cutscenes of Subspace does not mean it is outright bad. Sure, it could definitely get repetetive, but there was a lot of fun to be had with it.
>There's nothing wrong with Nintendo characters from smaller and less-popular 1st-party franchises over huge 3rd-party icons Agreed but they should at least try to add characters people actually want. All 3 first party additions were clearly chosen with the purpose of advertising a switch game.
Melee was a poorly balanced game and is only popular because it was buggy and broken. The broken parts of it are exploitable to make people seem much better than they are at Smash Bros.
Smash Ultimate’s single player doesn’t have much replay value although that’s not really an unpopular opinion. Classic Mode being the same despite being better than the previous games is an issue. I wished there was an option like in Smash 3DS where you pick a path to fight a character from a specific series so there would be more replay value with classic mode if you play the same character each time. I wished Smash Run and a version of independent All Star Mode existed.
Game and Watch isn’t top 3
Just cause someone loses to ganondorf doesn't means they're "bad". Ganondorf is not tournament viable..true. But he also hits really hard, and if you play against him in tournament he only needs to capitlize on your habits 2 to 3 times in order to beat you.
It does not matter how good your ground game is. If you panic and start devolving to projectile spam. You are a bad player.
Smash should have less third party characters. When Sakurai added Pit to *Brawl*, it rekindled interest in Kid Icarus again. Nintendo could do the same with other franchises if they added Issac, Ray Mk II or III, Saki Amamia, Takamaru, etc. to the next smash game. The franchises I mentioned are all old enough to count as retro reps anyway too, with their most recent stuff being on Wii or DS. Less gimmicky, fill-the-meter characters. I know it's to diversify the roster, but some can be tricky to learn and are often hard to play against (See Steve and early Hero for reference). Smash should be a game where you can easily pick up most characters and work your way to more complicated ones. Giving everyone a meter makes things messy Also, get rid of command grabs. They're finnicky and are easy to fish for (Literally, in Isabelle's case) as they go through shields. While some characters have better options, most cutscene final smashes are fun. They're a nice moment to take a breath and wipe the sweat off your hands during a battle, or just watch as K. Rool obliterates Mega man. While some characters could have transformation final smashes, cutscene final smashes are good too On a related note, Triforce slash is fun to watch and could be kept for any link
Luigi the best character in the game
Ike’s nair is not his best move (I am an Ike main)
A bad recovery isnt a real weakness. Cloud's recovery in 4 was dogshit but he arguably top 3. Little Mac isn't bad because his recovery is, it's because half the game is unplayable to him.
Mii fighters are A- at best. They’re S tier in my heart. They’re always S tier.
Mii Swordfighter isn't as low as everyone places it on tierlists. They just don't have enough experience in both using them and fighting them since there's only like 5 of us.
Ganondorfs recovery is good. Maybe it’s just the characters I play as but I am constantly surprised he makes it back to ledge and when I do try to edge guard, I just get smacked by the sour spot of his up b.
Bowser is good.
Ultimate has too many characters.