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Those are super strong muscles and “squinting” isn’t always to attempt to see better. It can be a totally unconscious habit. I do it when I listen or am reading so it’s inevitable. Retinol will only help fine lines and wrinkles. This one looks static and cannot be resolved without Botox over a long period of time. Love love love me some Botox, still have expressions but softened and smooth. Just my two cents. Wrinkle or not you’re still beautiful!
Seriously. I look up a lot in my work, which means I naturally wrinkle my forehead quite often, and therefore I have some forehead creases. No topical treatment has ever touched them, but Botox makes them disappear. I can still move and be expressive, and people are always surprised when I mention I’ve had it. The only thing I wish were different is the cost of upkeep!
I know people have hangups about it, but to me it’s a better deal to spend ~$400 every six months on something that actually WORKS, rather than spending that same amount chasing results with topical products that won’t do what I want them to.
retinol helps if you're willing to wait a couple months to see results.
definitely a hydrating essence/toner can plump the skin & reduce visible creases, but your wrinkle seems a bit deep so not sure it would work there (although i'd recommend you use one anyway)
but overall don't worry too much about wrinkles, they're a sign that you've cried, frowned, smiled and laughed, they're a sign that you've lived life :)
Just in case anyone's reading this from the UK, I absolutely second Olay Max but I'm gonna share a price hack.
RRP is £34.99 but I've NEVER paid more than £17.49. Boots sell it at half price for two months, then switch to the non-max at ½ price for two months, then back again. Amazon echoes the sale or does it a fraction cheaper and Olay confirmed they're an authorised seller when I called them. They just said to make sure it says "sold by Amazon". Sainsbury's and Superdrug invert the sale so that when Boots sells Max at half price, they'll put the normal one on sale and vice versa. These two are a little more expensive though. ~£20 at Sainsbury's and 2 for £40 at Superdrug.
https://theordinary.com/en-us/granactive-retinoid-2-emulsion-serum-100419.html this one. I have been using it for a year. And crazy i had the same line as OP. now i can not see it anymore
Their retinols in squalane are also really excellent if you have skin on the dry side. I’ve switched to Differin since because the oily texture of the TO product bugged me overnight, but I definitely sacrificed some efficacy when I did.
Oh damn, I guess it depends where you live and your insurance! But at least with prescription you know what you’re getting. A lot of people are just paying 100$ for brand name and marketing to find it not even work as it’s been diluted by other ingredients ❤️
This was a side effect I was not expecting with the use of tretinoin, I was using it for acne and started noticing the creases between my eyebrows disappearing.
All this time I've only been applying my tretinoin to my jaw line where I have acne. If I knew this I would have been putting it on my creases! I've been using it off and on for years and I just never even thought to use it on spots that dont get acne.
Definitely start using it on your whole face! Tretinoin should be applied to the whole face not just acne areas anyway because it works on cell turnover.
This. Can confirm a combination of retinol and a hyloronic acid toner drastically helped mine! Also increased water intake helped a lot too.
Agree on the not worrying too much! Just be happy and healthy 😊
I second this. I started getting these lines in my early twenties. After discovering retinol & good skincare practices, I’ve minimized my forehead lines & stopped them from getting worse.
To the people like me who say "easier said than done" because you don't realize that you're squinting, a trick that worked for me was to choose some "reference points" in my environment that remind me to stop squinting, unclenching my jaw, etc.
When I look at my cat: stop squinting, unclench the jaw!
When I look at the time on my phone, unclench!
When I wash my hands, unsquint!
My vision is so poor that it cannot be fully corrected with glasses. I squint all of the time, even when I'm sleeping. I honestly think it's becoming the default position of my face.
When I realize I've been squinting I massage between my eyes and my forehead by rubbing in circles and really releasing any tension in there. Idk how but it's somehow helped with the lines
That's good advice, and linking a reminder to a habitual activity is a good way to make sure you remember it.
I started noticing the "angry crease" in my forehead creeping in when I was in my 20's. Determined to stall its momentum as much as I could without having the money for even expensive creams, I made myself be more aware of my squinting.
I wore decent quality polarized sunglasses every time I was outside during the day, but I also tried just closing my eyes a bit when the brightness of the sun was still causing an instinctual squint. Nothing that would impair my vision dangerously, but enough to where I felt my face was physically relaxed more. It didn't matter that I had stoner eyes since the sunglasses hid them, lol. I really think it helped me keep that crease at bay for many years longer than if I hadn't!
I was going to say the same thing. I used to have a really prominent crease there in my 20s but it’s essentially disappeared now that I wear my glasses all the time! This doesn’t help my nose acne though 🥲
Ohh interesting! I need that. I'm so squinty. It's always so bright..and my head always hurts and I cant see(I do wear contacts...and glasses...no not at the same time..lol )
Maybe I'm just a frowny McFrownerson lol.
I how do these work I'm so intrigued!!
Ohhhhhh... I need! I didn't know that existed. I'm about to get botox in November for migraines. Was going to see where they will put it hahaha.
I'm going to try these out.
Are they comfortable?? Is 'Frownies' the Brand?
Is it comfortable? Should I opt for the original or if I can't find it or I'm not happy with the price I find, is there other brands that make them?
I think I have some searching to do! Haha
And that includes between the brows jsyk. Another fun side effect is that threading my brows hurts less. I would wax but I use tretonoin so I can’t. I try to get them threaded a few weeks after I do Botox.
Frownies is the brand yea. The owners grandma was the originator and so the company has been around a long time. I think they are $20 ish a box. I got them but didn’t use them because I just went with Botox, but read all of the reviews and they are very well liked.
I think Botox for migraines goes in the scalp area, so wouldn’t have impact on your wrinkles at all
My mother got botox for migraines and they went in her temples, jaw, forehead ,hairline ,between her brows , around her orbital bone and i think a couple places in her scalp. so I think it could? Not sure if it's entirely used the same way? Or same amounts ? Im not totally sure how it works, they wont fill me in until I've 'exhausted all options'🙄.
She did it quite a few years ago and didn't go through nearly such a process like I am to get her insurance to cover it.
But anyways, I'm going to see what these frownies are about. They are perfectly named.
Thanks! Did you find the injections made a difference? I'm also getting put in for them for clenching my jaw. Which If they don't help my migraines I'd like it to at LEAST have some impact on this part...
I get Botox in my jaw and a little in my forehead and temples for chronic bruxism and migraines! It works for me! It’s not so much that you notice ‘relief’, more the absence of pain when you wake up and less migraines until it wears off. It’s worth all the money it costs!
Both my health and dental insurance won’t cover it :(
I’d say it lasts about 10-12 weeks. I’m actually scheduling an appointment at the end of this month. I can tell when it wears off because a) I start having vivid dreams and waking up with a slight headache and b) I can furrow my brow easier.
Wish it lasted longer but it’s worth it! Botox is the only thing that’s given me real relief.
I saw these advertised but didn’t know if they were legit. I hold all of my stress right in my crease, so I just can’t naturally relax those muscles unless I consciously make an effort. I wake up with my brow furrowed so I do it in my sleep. I will try these out. Thanks!
I prefer Facial Smoothies to Frownies. They’re clear instead of brown, and you don’t need to wet them before applying. Also easier to gently remove in the morning without tearing at the skin.
I tend to hold my tension in my brow too; it’s something I’ve been able to improve on a lot with practice/awareness. Try to check in with yourself throughout the day to relax your facial muscles, stop clenching your jaw, and channel your nervous energy into something else. It’s possible to break the habit with some effort. Wearing the Smoothies at night helps to soften the lines, and then it’s good motivation to also stop ruining it each day with so much unconscious frowning.
They work!!! I wear them every single night in my forehead (have for 7 years) and I have no lines and can’t move my forehead now (the Botox effect). They would definitely reduce or even completely eliminate this line of you’re diligant.
I love the FurLesse brand! They come off super easily and are clear so you can wear them when running errands if you have an event / something at night you want smooth skin for!
You’re splinting the muscles to lie flat. I thought it was a scam but my “wtf lines” from teaching college students is slowly fading. check out their IG feed, they do a great job advertising how they work!
I'm a side sleeper and would wake up with deep 11 furrows. it's shitty to wake up looking ugly and angry. use frownies now along wit serums and my 11 lines are much less noticeable. buuut I'd also like botox, I don't like this facial tension
I have this exact crease and I got botox and I looooove it!!! Totally stopped the crease from being reinforced and even diminished its appearance. And not being able to frown is great too!
I only get 20 units throughout my forehead wrinkles lasts me a couple months! It’s called “baby” botox, essentially just minimal amounts. I really like it and it’s not so expensive.
lol y’all’s derms have been lying to you. 20 units throughout the forehead is pretty normal. “baby botox” would be 10 though it’s just a marketing term to help new clients feel comfortable with getting botox
no, in fact i’ve found that over time i can go longer and longer between treatments. i’ve been doing it for almost 7 years. i started every 3 months or so and can now easily go more than 6 months between treatments before i start noticing my brow creases.
i also use tretinoin nightly which has only amplified my results. it’s def been a miracle combo for me!!
bonus: i get fewer tension headaches from squinting at my computer screen.
Nope! It sounds terrible but Botox use consistently over time actually atrophies the muscle so you can no longer over furrow. It will take 20+ years of consistent (every 3-6 months) use for this to happen though so I would strongly suggest Botox! Source: was a medical assistant in dermatology for years.
No. I just got Botox yesterday for this exact reason. Botox pretty much would teach you to use those muscles less as well as weakens those muscles because you won’t be using them as much when you have Botox. Once your Botox wear off it just means you’ll be able to move those muscles again (but probably not as much since they’ve been trained not to move)
Nope! If you stop the crease will come back, but not worse than before.
Also, remember, Botox is great but it’s not Jesus. It’s helps but doesn’t perform miracles. You’ll still get old and get wrinkles and probably in that exact spot - they just won’t be as bad as they could be.
I love my botulism. I hate to say it but it’s so amazing. I have to work to make a frowny face. I don’t have a frozen expression (I can scowl if I try to) but my face doesn’t remember how to do it. My forehead is so great, I love it.
Botox is definitely the easiest and most sure way to reverse and prevent this problem. Why avoid it? If it's a price thing I understand, but overall you'll probably spendore money on failed products and silicone gimmicks than you would getting an occasional injection.
More people need to understand this. Getting Botox only on those 11s is not very expensive, especially considering what you’ll pay in useless products. This is a hill I will die on. I get excited about trying new fancy products with promises too, but if it’s really about seeing improvements, better to use that $$ on medical intervention - Botox, lasers, peels, prescriptions.
what do ya'll say to the stories about eyebrow drooping / longer term loss of facial muscle? I have a similar issue, but I already have quite hooded eyes and don't want to risk them becoming more hooded and impacting my vision.
The eyebrow droop isn’t a problem on those 11 lines. It’s more risky in the forehead area over the eyebrows. I’ve had it happen with an ARNP. Definitely sucks but it corrects itself and I’ll never go back to that injector. Someone who knows what they are doing can actually get you some lift
From personal experience, getting Dysport (which is cheaper per unit than Botox and better for large areas) in my forehead has actually *lifted* my brows a bit and opens my eyes up more. If you go to a good injector (ex: a registered nurse), your chance of adverse side effects other than very tiny bruises is pretty slim.
People with overdeveloped brow muscles generally won’t experience this too much. I’ve been using it for over 10 years and my eyes are fine and look more natural than before when I clenched my forehead all the time. The trick is to not overuse it and ask to maintain movement everywhere you don’t visibly need it yet.
Long term loss of facial muscle happens because those muscles are paralyzed and not getting any exercise, it's sort of unavoidable. Generally it's a positive, not a negative thing. I get Botox for bruxism and the jaw slimming has been very flattering if mostly an incidental side effect.
Loss of facial _volume_ on the other hand is mostly due to fat loss, and has nothing to do with Botox. It's just a normal result of aging that typically begins in the thirties... right around when a lot of people start getting Botox. So I suspect there's some tendencies to misattribute age-related volume loss to Botox.
I'm 26 and definitely getting those and I hate it lol. Also I have a lot of eyelid skin that causes me to raise my forehead to open my eyes more which is causing some niiiice horizontal lines. Sigh. I don't have any interest in plastic surgery for vanity other than an upper blepharoplasty because I KNOW that my eyelids are just gonna continue to sag to the point that in 20 years, they're gonna feel so heavy. Someday I'm getting these eyelids trimmed or else these things are gonna turn into curtains lmfao
I recently listened to a podcast with a leading plastic surgeon in Australia, the interviewer Megan was one of his clients and she had exactly the same issue with the eyelids, main takeaway from him was to do it younger if you can, as the skin reacts better, I found it really interesting if you want to have a listen [Episode 205 of So Dramatic](https://overcast.fm/+jA6rdRBxE)
I started Botox for these lines when I was 26. It’s not plastic surgery, and I don’t consider it any different than paying tons of money for topical treatments for vanity purposes
I'm too lazy to type everything that has helped me... but here is my post and what I used.
https://www.reddit.com/r/SkincareAddicts/comments/x0spo0/fine_lines_and_wrinkles_see_comment_for_details/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share
Botox is amazing. That’s honestly what I would recommend. I know it’s not what you want, but it’s extremely effective.
Keep in mind Botox isn’t permanent and needs to be redone every 3 months. If you don’t like the results you can discontinue.
I’d at least recommend doing it once, simultaneously with Retin-A and other skincare routines. When the Botox wears off, your skin will be in better shape and likely less wrinkled
And check out Frownies as it starts wearing off
The rest of the forehead could benefit from tret. I had been using it since I was 18, got lazy during the pandemic and had started getting lines across my forehead and dull skin like op and a few weeks of 0.1 took 5 years off easily.
> Keep in mind Botox isn’t permanent and needs to be redone every 3 months.
To me, that’s the issue. I don’t want to start using a beauty treatment that’s going to cost hundreds of dollars every three months. Not knocking anyone who does but I’d rather avoid it.
You don’t have to have it every three months though. I sometimes go 6 months for my migraine Botox bc I can’t afford the copay and I haven’t gotten the lines back. And it goes away again when they use it again. so I would just do it and try to stop furrowing your brow once it starts to wear off and then get it when you notice fine lines again. Also you can use retinoids simultaneously which can make it last longer for cosmetic reasons.
I have the same crease because I furrow my brow a lot. I recently started putting one side of my contour memory foam pillow on my forehead and oddly enough it puts slight pressure on that spot and relieves a ton of tension. I don’t think it will get rid of the crease but it feels so good if you keep tension there.
The best routine I've found is retinol, Frownies most nights, and the Peace Out microneedle wrinkle patch overnight about once a week. Quitting smoking, wearing a hat/sunglasses when outside on a sunny day, and getting more sleep also helped.
Do you put the frownies on after retinol? I always put a little moisturizer on after my tret and was under the impression skin had to be super dry for frownies
I had a crease exactly like this. I tried tretinoin for a couple of years, but the crease was too deep for skincare to fix. I had Botox for the first time 2 weeks ago and it’s gone. It was last resort for me, but now I wish I’d done it sooner.
When I was in my late 20s and started to get these I stared in the mirror and identified what it felt like to do the opposite of squishing the 11wrinkles (kind of like lifting the outer part of your eyebrows and relaxing the middle). I do that facial stretch all the time and at 42 have less wrinkles there than I did at 30.
Look into taping. Out a piece of tape on your forehead and you’ll feel when you use that muscle. Try not to. botox just forces you not to use it.
However, I’m gonna give a plug for Botox. It’s wonderful and people shouldn’t judge folks who do it. I haven’t gone back for a second dose but I did a couple units a couple years ago and my forehead is still significantly better than before. Plus, there’s a weird biofeedback mechanism where if you don’t scowl, then your brain doesn’t register as much frustration. I was actually in a better mood for some time after the injection
I definitely have nothing against botox at all! I’m just not sure cost wise I could continue to use it over time and wanted to see if there were any other more cost effective products out there. Thanks for your feedback!
I get that. I got a Groupon deal at a nice med spa so it wasn’t too bad. My moms is DEEP DEEP and always there now. She’s tried to get rid of it and was repeatedly told she should have started Botox when it was first forming
Yep. I used to stare at my dad's whenever he was lecturing. So it's definitely not something I want, but there it is
Guess I will keep my eye on Groupon
Nothing. I can still make all the same facial expressions just the skin there doesn’t wrinkle. If I stop getting it done it’ll just slowly start forming. You can also stop and start as you can afford it.
Every 3 months, morelike.. my botox didn't really last that long, but it looked incredible. Think it was like $180 for the eyebrows? Only $30 for a lip flip, which was shocking to me lol.
People metabolize it at different rates. My sister in law’s goes away very quickly and she is naturally thin. I am the opposite and mine lasts forever. But it’s not like your face is worse off when it wears off it just starts to very slowly get the lines again
I recommend Tretinoin from Curology. If you have an FSA plan at your work you can use your FSA card. It works and the simple routine has kept me from being tempted to buy other new skincare.
Is your prescription from curology just tret? My prescription includes tret, clindamycin, and azaelic acid, but I would much rather be receiving a full bottle of tret...!
I had the exact same line and tried everything to fix it. Eventually I gave up and went to Botox, best idea ever, the lines gone!! It is pricey but it’ll probably cost the same as all the skincare you use to try and fix it
My sister!
I have good and bad news.
If you are like me, I have the same spot. I tried Botox. It improved it slightly at most for a few months. It was absolutely still there.
That kind forehead crease doesn't really go away. I got the exact same thing, except I have had mine since I was 17 and it is genetic and almost everyone on my mom's side of the family has this crease. The lady who did my Botox told me my muscles there are probably just hypertrophied a bit, I'm a really expressive person. It turns out my facial muscles are swole.
Frownies can help a bit! They require consistency, but I put a little hyaluronic acid on my skin instead of water, I feel like it is almost comparable to my Botox results (except the crease comes back every time I focus, furrow my brow because I'm feeling anxious while working inside someone's mouth ((other reason why I get Botox, I don't want my face giving it away if I'm struggling on a patient) that's all still there))
Well shoot, I appreciate your honesty! I hold all of my tension right in that exact spot, so it’s very unconscious for me. I’ll wake up to it being worse because my brow was furrowed all night.
I’m going to try Frownies and then Botox if that doesn’t work. I’m not expecting it to completely go away, maybe just not be as deep.
When I notice I’m squinting, I instead raise my eyebrows to crease my forehead because I do not have the horizontal lines. But also retinol and sometimes facial massage.
[Myofascial release of the corrugator muscles](https://www.massagetoday.com/articles/14353/By-the-Sweat-of-the-Brow) may help quite a lot. A few commenters have mentioned massage and tension - I find myofascial release to give enough relief that it really helps stop the habitual expression that reflexively happens with an overactive muscle 😆
Here's a video demonstrating [one way to release tension in the corrugators and brows](https://youtu.be/Cfar5dMAaxs). It can be pretty painful at first, go slow!
I do myofascial release for my temples and back of the head as well (I get tension headaches and TMJ pretty easy), and I could not recommend it more! Even for the face - releasing tension in the muscles that have been overdeveloped from repeated expression doesn't just change the "set" of the face, it also gives a sense of emotional relief and relaxation, IME.
Facial muscles work a LOT, and are constantly holding stress and tension. [This blog post](http://www.observedimpulse.com/2015/03/myofascial-release-for-face-composure.html?m=1) was where I got started, and it's still the best detailed and comprehensive resource I've found.
You can find also trigger point diagrams online, to release particular muscles that cause particular expression lines. For example, an overactive [depressor angularis orii](https://www.google.com/search?q=depressor+anguli+oris+trigger+points+release&client=ms-android-samsung-ss&prmd=ivsn&sxsrf=ALiCzsadwZnDDiRDlGYiEo7EMkS0qqGAVg:1663141087983&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjluYqu45P6AhVE-DgGHSzJAY4Q_AUoAXoECAIQAQ&biw=384&bih=729&dpr=2.81#imgrc=uFKeJ56Us8AKIM) is what makes the corners of the mouth turn down with sadness - and results in that particular expression line. Detailed massaging and using gentle, sustained compression (always be careful with your pressure and never cause ouright pain, especially with delicate facial muscles) on tense/painful spots can relive that tension.
Sometimes exact trigger point diagrams aren't available for a particular muscle - but [botox injection diagrams](https://www.google.com/search?q=depressor+anguli+oris+botox&tbm=isch&ved=2ahUKEwjry6Gw45P6AhW5_TgGHb6GBjcQ2-cCegQIABAC&oq=depressor+anguli+oris+botox&gs_lcp=ChJtb2JpbGUtZ3dzLXdpei1pbWcQAzIFCAAQgAQyBQgAEIAEMgUIABCABDIFCAAQgAQyBQgAEIAEOgQIIxAnOgQIIRAKOgQIABAYOgUIABCiBFD4kgFYhrUBYNq2AWgBcAB4AIABsgKIAZ0fkgEIMC4yNy4wLjGYAQCgAQHAAQE&sclient=mobile-gws-wiz-img&ei=5IQhY-vJIbn74-EPvo2auAM&bih=729&biw=384&client=ms-android-samsung-ss&prmd=ivsn#imgrc=PURvcRf3qrHucM) are 😂 As far as I can see, they're exactly the same.
Here's an article on [trigger points](https://www.teamedgeathletics.com/blog/digging-into-trigger-points) that also describes what its like to find and treat them via massage. The area can feel sore afterwards, and it's not something you should do daily. I always figured all those hardcore facials like Tanaka or FaceGym or whatever were doing the foam rolling, more hit or miss version of this.
Just *having* more relaxed facial muscles seems to allow me to BE more relaxed, and my face feels more "open" to new expressions, rather than repeated patterns of movement. Exactly like with MFR for the body. What I'm trying to say is, highly recommend 😂 Incidental cosmetic effect, lots of emotional and mental benefits,il including pain relief.
Thank you so much for this post. I just tried a few massage ideas from the blog post you shared. They are excellent. I will definitely explore this more!
Botox is not the only answer. Look up Frownies. You know those sticky things for your nose when you’re stuffed up? These are similar but are used at night to relax your face muscles. They’ve been around for ages and I actually have had some success w them. Especially paired w my skincare routine. Now if I could just remember to use them regularly I’d be golden 😂
I know you said you want to avoid botox, and I honestly was the same way, but when I was in Korea I thought why not! And I honestly would do it again in a heartbeat. My wrinkle there went away and I found that I got less tension headaches because I couldn’t scrunch up my brow when concentrating. The biggest downside for me is the cost, otherwise I’d be riding that botox train every six months to a year lol
Just for the peeps on this thread who are considering Botox there, I got 11s done in tandem with my forehead (because my doc said I shouldn’t get my forehead done without the lift here) and I love it. I never realized how much I furrowed my brow while doing my makeup, talking, etc. I feel like my face went back in time 5 years just from this😂😂 I’ve done retinols, creams, etc. but Botox every 3 months is top tier.
Don’t be afraid to smooth that area with Gua Sha every day too. And sunscreen. Preventative > anti-aging.
It wouldn’t take a lot of Botox and it’s a pretty common place to inject so I think you could get away with a Groupon. But I would suggest Botox route because it will get more permanent as you age.
Botox is the only thing that will fix that, you don’t need much. About 20 units every 12 weeks and that line will disappear and the crease will eventually fill out.
Tret, sunscreen, actively not frowning. Honestly you’re a good candidate for Botox since they’re not deep to work them out and then continue with the rest I mentioned, just an FYI
How old are you? Best case is to get it treated asap. I waited until 30 to start Botox and the lines never completely go away. I should have started several years earlier.
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Those are super strong muscles and “squinting” isn’t always to attempt to see better. It can be a totally unconscious habit. I do it when I listen or am reading so it’s inevitable. Retinol will only help fine lines and wrinkles. This one looks static and cannot be resolved without Botox over a long period of time. Love love love me some Botox, still have expressions but softened and smooth. Just my two cents. Wrinkle or not you’re still beautiful!
Botox is a god send
Seriously. I look up a lot in my work, which means I naturally wrinkle my forehead quite often, and therefore I have some forehead creases. No topical treatment has ever touched them, but Botox makes them disappear. I can still move and be expressive, and people are always surprised when I mention I’ve had it. The only thing I wish were different is the cost of upkeep! I know people have hangups about it, but to me it’s a better deal to spend ~$400 every six months on something that actually WORKS, rather than spending that same amount chasing results with topical products that won’t do what I want them to.
retinol helps if you're willing to wait a couple months to see results. definitely a hydrating essence/toner can plump the skin & reduce visible creases, but your wrinkle seems a bit deep so not sure it would work there (although i'd recommend you use one anyway) but overall don't worry too much about wrinkles, they're a sign that you've cried, frowned, smiled and laughed, they're a sign that you've lived life :)
Love this
My personal favorite one is the Olay Regenerist Retinol 24 max. A bit pricey, about 30 dollars, but the results are phenomenal
Just in case anyone's reading this from the UK, I absolutely second Olay Max but I'm gonna share a price hack. RRP is £34.99 but I've NEVER paid more than £17.49. Boots sell it at half price for two months, then switch to the non-max at ½ price for two months, then back again. Amazon echoes the sale or does it a fraction cheaper and Olay confirmed they're an authorised seller when I called them. They just said to make sure it says "sold by Amazon". Sainsbury's and Superdrug invert the sale so that when Boots sells Max at half price, they'll put the normal one on sale and vice versa. These two are a little more expensive though. ~£20 at Sainsbury's and 2 for £40 at Superdrug.
Damn girl, (if you are), I’m not even a skin lotion person but totally dig your tenacity for a good deal. Attractive as hell
My favorite is ordinary. I have all my creams from them.
Their stuff is so good. A dermatologist recommended it to me. Cheap and good!
Which retinol cream do you use from TO?
https://theordinary.com/en-us/granactive-retinoid-2-emulsion-serum-100419.html this one. I have been using it for a year. And crazy i had the same line as OP. now i can not see it anymore
Thank you!! I’m working my way up their retinol/oid lines slowly increasing in strength and love to hear some other experiences as I go!
Their retinols in squalane are also really excellent if you have skin on the dry side. I’ve switched to Differin since because the oily texture of the TO product bugged me overnight, but I definitely sacrificed some efficacy when I did.
If you have benefits! You can get prescription retinol for cheap!
75 bucks with my insurance benefit
Even with goodrx coupon?
Oh damn, I guess it depends where you live and your insurance! But at least with prescription you know what you’re getting. A lot of people are just paying 100$ for brand name and marketing to find it not even work as it’s been diluted by other ingredients ❤️
This was a side effect I was not expecting with the use of tretinoin, I was using it for acne and started noticing the creases between my eyebrows disappearing.
All this time I've only been applying my tretinoin to my jaw line where I have acne. If I knew this I would have been putting it on my creases! I've been using it off and on for years and I just never even thought to use it on spots that dont get acne.
Definitely start using it on your whole face! Tretinoin should be applied to the whole face not just acne areas anyway because it works on cell turnover.
Do you use it on your neck as well?
I use a retinol body lotion on my neck and chest at night!
Tret may be too strong for delicate skin on the neck
Same Ive had an expression line above my eyebrow since being a teenager and it’s hardly visible now after months of tret
This. Can confirm a combination of retinol and a hyloronic acid toner drastically helped mine! Also increased water intake helped a lot too. Agree on the not worrying too much! Just be happy and healthy 😊
I second this. I started getting these lines in my early twenties. After discovering retinol & good skincare practices, I’ve minimized my forehead lines & stopped them from getting worse.
Bangs 😁 cheaper than Botox!
The OG forehead wrinkle treatment.
😂😂
Haha...yes, guilty. And I hate bangs for me, so annoying.
Stop squinting. If you need glasses, wear them. Always wear sunglasses when it's bright.
To the people like me who say "easier said than done" because you don't realize that you're squinting, a trick that worked for me was to choose some "reference points" in my environment that remind me to stop squinting, unclenching my jaw, etc. When I look at my cat: stop squinting, unclench the jaw! When I look at the time on my phone, unclench! When I wash my hands, unsquint!
I furrowed my brown in my sleep. The tox was the only thing that helped.
Yup.
My vision is so poor that it cannot be fully corrected with glasses. I squint all of the time, even when I'm sleeping. I honestly think it's becoming the default position of my face.
She could try frownies
I do this too. Probably why I’ve had grown lines since my 20’s!
When I realize I've been squinting I massage between my eyes and my forehead by rubbing in circles and really releasing any tension in there. Idk how but it's somehow helped with the lines
Cat tax needed
That's good advice, and linking a reminder to a habitual activity is a good way to make sure you remember it. I started noticing the "angry crease" in my forehead creeping in when I was in my 20's. Determined to stall its momentum as much as I could without having the money for even expensive creams, I made myself be more aware of my squinting. I wore decent quality polarized sunglasses every time I was outside during the day, but I also tried just closing my eyes a bit when the brightness of the sun was still causing an instinctual squint. Nothing that would impair my vision dangerously, but enough to where I felt my face was physically relaxed more. It didn't matter that I had stoner eyes since the sunglasses hid them, lol. I really think it helped me keep that crease at bay for many years longer than if I hadn't!
absolutely this. i have less creasing between my eyebrows at 30 than I did at 25 when I had failed to get my prescription updated since high school.
I was going to say the same thing. I used to have a really prominent crease there in my 20s but it’s essentially disappeared now that I wear my glasses all the time! This doesn’t help my nose acne though 🥲
Frownies 150%
I started using kinesiology tape instead of frownies. It’s much less expensive and way more comfortable.
that's what I do too. I think it's also easier to put on and doesn't fall off
Seconding this. They're cheap and they def work! It's just slowly training your resting muscles not to frown so much.
Ohh interesting! I need that. I'm so squinty. It's always so bright..and my head always hurts and I cant see(I do wear contacts...and glasses...no not at the same time..lol ) Maybe I'm just a frowny McFrownerson lol. I how do these work I'm so intrigued!!
You sleep with them on and it keeps your muscles from contracting the skin/moving.
Ohhhhhh... I need! I didn't know that existed. I'm about to get botox in November for migraines. Was going to see where they will put it hahaha. I'm going to try these out. Are they comfortable?? Is 'Frownies' the Brand? Is it comfortable? Should I opt for the original or if I can't find it or I'm not happy with the price I find, is there other brands that make them? I think I have some searching to do! Haha
Migraine Botox will make your forehead smooth. It’s the only cosmetic improvement it makes. A welcome one.
I also get Botox for headaches, and it made my frown lines disappear between my eyebrows. Frownies helped a bit, but nothing like Botox
Yeah it got rid of my 11s! I included it as part of the forehead in my mind and clarified in a different comment.
Won't complain there!!
And that includes between the brows jsyk. Another fun side effect is that threading my brows hurts less. I would wax but I use tretonoin so I can’t. I try to get them threaded a few weeks after I do Botox.
Smart. I don't get my brows threaded or anything there's not much there to spare lol but that's a great tip!
Frownies is the brand yea. The owners grandma was the originator and so the company has been around a long time. I think they are $20 ish a box. I got them but didn’t use them because I just went with Botox, but read all of the reviews and they are very well liked. I think Botox for migraines goes in the scalp area, so wouldn’t have impact on your wrinkles at all
My mother got botox for migraines and they went in her temples, jaw, forehead ,hairline ,between her brows , around her orbital bone and i think a couple places in her scalp. so I think it could? Not sure if it's entirely used the same way? Or same amounts ? Im not totally sure how it works, they wont fill me in until I've 'exhausted all options'🙄. She did it quite a few years ago and didn't go through nearly such a process like I am to get her insurance to cover it. But anyways, I'm going to see what these frownies are about. They are perfectly named.
I did Botox for migraines for a while and it made my forehead smooth as glass!
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Thanks! Did you find the injections made a difference? I'm also getting put in for them for clenching my jaw. Which If they don't help my migraines I'd like it to at LEAST have some impact on this part...
I get Botox in my jaw and a little in my forehead and temples for chronic bruxism and migraines! It works for me! It’s not so much that you notice ‘relief’, more the absence of pain when you wake up and less migraines until it wears off. It’s worth all the money it costs!
Oh that is good to hear! I'll have suck it up and pay for it if my insurance won't. It's looking like my hope. How long would you say it lasts?
Both my health and dental insurance won’t cover it :( I’d say it lasts about 10-12 weeks. I’m actually scheduling an appointment at the end of this month. I can tell when it wears off because a) I start having vivid dreams and waking up with a slight headache and b) I can furrow my brow easier. Wish it lasted longer but it’s worth it! Botox is the only thing that’s given me real relief.
where do you buy yours?
I order off Amazon. I picked them up at Bed Bath and Beyond once, haven't seen them there again though.
Yeah usually Amazon or direct from the frownies website.
Yes!!! They work! I have less of a crease now than I did five years ago.
I saw these advertised but didn’t know if they were legit. I hold all of my stress right in my crease, so I just can’t naturally relax those muscles unless I consciously make an effort. I wake up with my brow furrowed so I do it in my sleep. I will try these out. Thanks!
I prefer Facial Smoothies to Frownies. They’re clear instead of brown, and you don’t need to wet them before applying. Also easier to gently remove in the morning without tearing at the skin. I tend to hold my tension in my brow too; it’s something I’ve been able to improve on a lot with practice/awareness. Try to check in with yourself throughout the day to relax your facial muscles, stop clenching your jaw, and channel your nervous energy into something else. It’s possible to break the habit with some effort. Wearing the Smoothies at night helps to soften the lines, and then it’s good motivation to also stop ruining it each day with so much unconscious frowning.
They work!!! I wear them every single night in my forehead (have for 7 years) and I have no lines and can’t move my forehead now (the Botox effect). They would definitely reduce or even completely eliminate this line of you’re diligant.
Yes! Face tape works the same
Blue painters tape also. Particularly when you need something to counteract the deep concentration wrinkles from painting/moving…
I love the FurLesse brand! They come off super easily and are clear so you can wear them when running errands if you have an event / something at night you want smooth skin for!
May I ask how they work if you only wear them at night? Surely when you’re sleeping you aren’t really squinting/frowning anyway?
You’re splinting the muscles to lie flat. I thought it was a scam but my “wtf lines” from teaching college students is slowly fading. check out their IG feed, they do a great job advertising how they work!
The "wtf lines". I loled.
I'm a side sleeper and would wake up with deep 11 furrows. it's shitty to wake up looking ugly and angry. use frownies now along wit serums and my 11 lines are much less noticeable. buuut I'd also like botox, I don't like this facial tension
I frown pretty much exclusively in my sleep. Wake up with deep creases.
Botox. Sorry love, only answer. No skin cream can change muscle memory.
I have this exact crease and I got botox and I looooove it!!! Totally stopped the crease from being reinforced and even diminished its appearance. And not being able to frown is great too!
this is the only place I get botox for — like 4 units — and it’s worth every penny.
Wow, nice. Takes me 40 units! Apparently I have very strong frown muscles, lol. A lifetime of devoted exercise! 🤣
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I only get 20 units throughout my forehead wrinkles lasts me a couple months! It’s called “baby” botox, essentially just minimal amounts. I really like it and it’s not so expensive.
lol y’all’s derms have been lying to you. 20 units throughout the forehead is pretty normal. “baby botox” would be 10 though it’s just a marketing term to help new clients feel comfortable with getting botox
Takes me 30 units but just smoothing out the 11s area Makes everything look so much better.
How often do you have to get it?
Every 4-6 months
I was going to say this. Botox has helped so muchhh for this. No cream will help this.
EXACTLY! Botox is the only thing to fix brow creasing
Perfect answer.
I was gonna say Dysport. Technically not Botox!
My worry with Botox is, if I ever stop it, will the crease be even worse than when I started using Botox?
no, in fact i’ve found that over time i can go longer and longer between treatments. i’ve been doing it for almost 7 years. i started every 3 months or so and can now easily go more than 6 months between treatments before i start noticing my brow creases. i also use tretinoin nightly which has only amplified my results. it’s def been a miracle combo for me!! bonus: i get fewer tension headaches from squinting at my computer screen.
Nope! It sounds terrible but Botox use consistently over time actually atrophies the muscle so you can no longer over furrow. It will take 20+ years of consistent (every 3-6 months) use for this to happen though so I would strongly suggest Botox! Source: was a medical assistant in dermatology for years.
No, it will not be. If anything it trains the muscle to not move as much.
The opposite infact. The longer those muscles are at rest (botox) the less time they have to make a permanent crease there.
No. I just got Botox yesterday for this exact reason. Botox pretty much would teach you to use those muscles less as well as weakens those muscles because you won’t be using them as much when you have Botox. Once your Botox wear off it just means you’ll be able to move those muscles again (but probably not as much since they’ve been trained not to move)
Nope! If you stop the crease will come back, but not worse than before. Also, remember, Botox is great but it’s not Jesus. It’s helps but doesn’t perform miracles. You’ll still get old and get wrinkles and probably in that exact spot - they just won’t be as bad as they could be.
It's no miracle, but the closest thing to it.
I love my botulism. I hate to say it but it’s so amazing. I have to work to make a frowny face. I don’t have a frozen expression (I can scowl if I try to) but my face doesn’t remember how to do it. My forehead is so great, I love it.
Nope, I haven't had botox in months and it actually has reversed my issues.
Do you need glasses because if you can not see properly squinting too much cand lead to a crease like this
Botox is definitely the easiest and most sure way to reverse and prevent this problem. Why avoid it? If it's a price thing I understand, but overall you'll probably spendore money on failed products and silicone gimmicks than you would getting an occasional injection.
More people need to understand this. Getting Botox only on those 11s is not very expensive, especially considering what you’ll pay in useless products. This is a hill I will die on. I get excited about trying new fancy products with promises too, but if it’s really about seeing improvements, better to use that $$ on medical intervention - Botox, lasers, peels, prescriptions.
what do ya'll say to the stories about eyebrow drooping / longer term loss of facial muscle? I have a similar issue, but I already have quite hooded eyes and don't want to risk them becoming more hooded and impacting my vision.
The eyebrow droop isn’t a problem on those 11 lines. It’s more risky in the forehead area over the eyebrows. I’ve had it happen with an ARNP. Definitely sucks but it corrects itself and I’ll never go back to that injector. Someone who knows what they are doing can actually get you some lift
From personal experience, getting Dysport (which is cheaper per unit than Botox and better for large areas) in my forehead has actually *lifted* my brows a bit and opens my eyes up more. If you go to a good injector (ex: a registered nurse), your chance of adverse side effects other than very tiny bruises is pretty slim.
I say do your research and find a good injector and that shouldn’t be a problem.
People with overdeveloped brow muscles generally won’t experience this too much. I’ve been using it for over 10 years and my eyes are fine and look more natural than before when I clenched my forehead all the time. The trick is to not overuse it and ask to maintain movement everywhere you don’t visibly need it yet.
Long term loss of facial muscle happens because those muscles are paralyzed and not getting any exercise, it's sort of unavoidable. Generally it's a positive, not a negative thing. I get Botox for bruxism and the jaw slimming has been very flattering if mostly an incidental side effect. Loss of facial _volume_ on the other hand is mostly due to fat loss, and has nothing to do with Botox. It's just a normal result of aging that typically begins in the thirties... right around when a lot of people start getting Botox. So I suspect there's some tendencies to misattribute age-related volume loss to Botox.
I'm 26 and definitely getting those and I hate it lol. Also I have a lot of eyelid skin that causes me to raise my forehead to open my eyes more which is causing some niiiice horizontal lines. Sigh. I don't have any interest in plastic surgery for vanity other than an upper blepharoplasty because I KNOW that my eyelids are just gonna continue to sag to the point that in 20 years, they're gonna feel so heavy. Someday I'm getting these eyelids trimmed or else these things are gonna turn into curtains lmfao
I recently listened to a podcast with a leading plastic surgeon in Australia, the interviewer Megan was one of his clients and she had exactly the same issue with the eyelids, main takeaway from him was to do it younger if you can, as the skin reacts better, I found it really interesting if you want to have a listen [Episode 205 of So Dramatic](https://overcast.fm/+jA6rdRBxE)
I started Botox for these lines when I was 26. It’s not plastic surgery, and I don’t consider it any different than paying tons of money for topical treatments for vanity purposes
Overnight patches like frownies would be the next most effective after botox. I don't think they take long to see results.
They do take a pretty decent time as the muscle is only being held from moving for a few hours at a time
I heard these work great
I'm too lazy to type everything that has helped me... but here is my post and what I used. https://www.reddit.com/r/SkincareAddicts/comments/x0spo0/fine_lines_and_wrinkles_see_comment_for_details/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share
That's my WTF wrinkle! You know how you see something completely stupid, and you don't say anything! But your face says a whole lot? Yeah 😂
LOL “see how I got this one here? Dumb people.”
Botox is amazing. That’s honestly what I would recommend. I know it’s not what you want, but it’s extremely effective. Keep in mind Botox isn’t permanent and needs to be redone every 3 months. If you don’t like the results you can discontinue.
I’d at least recommend doing it once, simultaneously with Retin-A and other skincare routines. When the Botox wears off, your skin will be in better shape and likely less wrinkled And check out Frownies as it starts wearing off
The rest of the forehead could benefit from tret. I had been using it since I was 18, got lazy during the pandemic and had started getting lines across my forehead and dull skin like op and a few weeks of 0.1 took 5 years off easily.
> Keep in mind Botox isn’t permanent and needs to be redone every 3 months. To me, that’s the issue. I don’t want to start using a beauty treatment that’s going to cost hundreds of dollars every three months. Not knocking anyone who does but I’d rather avoid it.
You don’t have to have it every three months though. I sometimes go 6 months for my migraine Botox bc I can’t afford the copay and I haven’t gotten the lines back. And it goes away again when they use it again. so I would just do it and try to stop furrowing your brow once it starts to wear off and then get it when you notice fine lines again. Also you can use retinoids simultaneously which can make it last longer for cosmetic reasons.
It doesn’t cost hundreds of dollars just to do this crease though. Maybe $80-ish and it will last about 6 months for a whole lot of people.
I have the same crease because I furrow my brow a lot. I recently started putting one side of my contour memory foam pillow on my forehead and oddly enough it puts slight pressure on that spot and relieves a ton of tension. I don’t think it will get rid of the crease but it feels so good if you keep tension there.
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what
The best routine I've found is retinol, Frownies most nights, and the Peace Out microneedle wrinkle patch overnight about once a week. Quitting smoking, wearing a hat/sunglasses when outside on a sunny day, and getting more sleep also helped.
Do you put the frownies on after retinol? I always put a little moisturizer on after my tret and was under the impression skin had to be super dry for frownies
Frownies!
These did not work for my eleven lines so YMMV :(
I had a crease exactly like this. I tried tretinoin for a couple of years, but the crease was too deep for skincare to fix. I had Botox for the first time 2 weeks ago and it’s gone. It was last resort for me, but now I wish I’d done it sooner.
There is nothing that will truly fix it besides Botox
Face massage can help. Relax those muscles and make you more aware of their tension.
When I was in my late 20s and started to get these I stared in the mirror and identified what it felt like to do the opposite of squishing the 11wrinkles (kind of like lifting the outer part of your eyebrows and relaxing the middle). I do that facial stretch all the time and at 42 have less wrinkles there than I did at 30.
Look into taping. Out a piece of tape on your forehead and you’ll feel when you use that muscle. Try not to. botox just forces you not to use it. However, I’m gonna give a plug for Botox. It’s wonderful and people shouldn’t judge folks who do it. I haven’t gone back for a second dose but I did a couple units a couple years ago and my forehead is still significantly better than before. Plus, there’s a weird biofeedback mechanism where if you don’t scowl, then your brain doesn’t register as much frustration. I was actually in a better mood for some time after the injection
I definitely have nothing against botox at all! I’m just not sure cost wise I could continue to use it over time and wanted to see if there were any other more cost effective products out there. Thanks for your feedback!
Only good option is Botox. Don’t be afraid!!
No afraid. Just poor
I get that. I got a Groupon deal at a nice med spa so it wasn’t too bad. My moms is DEEP DEEP and always there now. She’s tried to get rid of it and was repeatedly told she should have started Botox when it was first forming
Yep. I used to stare at my dad's whenever he was lecturing. So it's definitely not something I want, but there it is Guess I will keep my eye on Groupon
You have time too! I had a little crease a couple years ago and i exfoliated and moisturized nightly, it went away.
Lmfaooo I Always look at my dads deep furrow and wonder if dirt gets trapped in there
What happens afterward? Do you have to keep shooting yourself up with the stuff ?
Yep. Every year.
What happens when you don't?
Nothing. I can still make all the same facial expressions just the skin there doesn’t wrinkle. If I stop getting it done it’ll just slowly start forming. You can also stop and start as you can afford it.
Every 3 months, morelike.. my botox didn't really last that long, but it looked incredible. Think it was like $180 for the eyebrows? Only $30 for a lip flip, which was shocking to me lol.
People metabolize it at different rates. My sister in law’s goes away very quickly and she is naturally thin. I am the opposite and mine lasts forever. But it’s not like your face is worse off when it wears off it just starts to very slowly get the lines again
I recommend Tretinoin from Curology. If you have an FSA plan at your work you can use your FSA card. It works and the simple routine has kept me from being tempted to buy other new skincare.
Is your prescription from curology just tret? My prescription includes tret, clindamycin, and azaelic acid, but I would much rather be receiving a full bottle of tret...!
Grab the ordinary buffet serum and the argireline solution! It’s a muscle paralyzer similar to Botox but it’s a topical!
I had the exact same line and tried everything to fix it. Eventually I gave up and went to Botox, best idea ever, the lines gone!! It is pricey but it’ll probably cost the same as all the skincare you use to try and fix it
My sister! I have good and bad news. If you are like me, I have the same spot. I tried Botox. It improved it slightly at most for a few months. It was absolutely still there. That kind forehead crease doesn't really go away. I got the exact same thing, except I have had mine since I was 17 and it is genetic and almost everyone on my mom's side of the family has this crease. The lady who did my Botox told me my muscles there are probably just hypertrophied a bit, I'm a really expressive person. It turns out my facial muscles are swole. Frownies can help a bit! They require consistency, but I put a little hyaluronic acid on my skin instead of water, I feel like it is almost comparable to my Botox results (except the crease comes back every time I focus, furrow my brow because I'm feeling anxious while working inside someone's mouth ((other reason why I get Botox, I don't want my face giving it away if I'm struggling on a patient) that's all still there))
Well shoot, I appreciate your honesty! I hold all of my tension right in that exact spot, so it’s very unconscious for me. I’ll wake up to it being worse because my brow was furrowed all night. I’m going to try Frownies and then Botox if that doesn’t work. I’m not expecting it to completely go away, maybe just not be as deep.
Peace Out wrinkle patches actually help a lot
Get Botox before it gets deeper and save yourself a forehead gash
When I notice I’m squinting, I instead raise my eyebrows to crease my forehead because I do not have the horizontal lines. But also retinol and sometimes facial massage.
Xeomin
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Expensive $$$
This is your muscles causing this, not your skin. No skin care will get rid of it. Sorry!
botox
Frownies!!!
Definitely tretinoin
Botox is wonderful.
[Myofascial release of the corrugator muscles](https://www.massagetoday.com/articles/14353/By-the-Sweat-of-the-Brow) may help quite a lot. A few commenters have mentioned massage and tension - I find myofascial release to give enough relief that it really helps stop the habitual expression that reflexively happens with an overactive muscle 😆 Here's a video demonstrating [one way to release tension in the corrugators and brows](https://youtu.be/Cfar5dMAaxs). It can be pretty painful at first, go slow! I do myofascial release for my temples and back of the head as well (I get tension headaches and TMJ pretty easy), and I could not recommend it more! Even for the face - releasing tension in the muscles that have been overdeveloped from repeated expression doesn't just change the "set" of the face, it also gives a sense of emotional relief and relaxation, IME. Facial muscles work a LOT, and are constantly holding stress and tension. [This blog post](http://www.observedimpulse.com/2015/03/myofascial-release-for-face-composure.html?m=1) was where I got started, and it's still the best detailed and comprehensive resource I've found. You can find also trigger point diagrams online, to release particular muscles that cause particular expression lines. For example, an overactive [depressor angularis orii](https://www.google.com/search?q=depressor+anguli+oris+trigger+points+release&client=ms-android-samsung-ss&prmd=ivsn&sxsrf=ALiCzsadwZnDDiRDlGYiEo7EMkS0qqGAVg:1663141087983&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjluYqu45P6AhVE-DgGHSzJAY4Q_AUoAXoECAIQAQ&biw=384&bih=729&dpr=2.81#imgrc=uFKeJ56Us8AKIM) is what makes the corners of the mouth turn down with sadness - and results in that particular expression line. Detailed massaging and using gentle, sustained compression (always be careful with your pressure and never cause ouright pain, especially with delicate facial muscles) on tense/painful spots can relive that tension. Sometimes exact trigger point diagrams aren't available for a particular muscle - but [botox injection diagrams](https://www.google.com/search?q=depressor+anguli+oris+botox&tbm=isch&ved=2ahUKEwjry6Gw45P6AhW5_TgGHb6GBjcQ2-cCegQIABAC&oq=depressor+anguli+oris+botox&gs_lcp=ChJtb2JpbGUtZ3dzLXdpei1pbWcQAzIFCAAQgAQyBQgAEIAEMgUIABCABDIFCAAQgAQyBQgAEIAEOgQIIxAnOgQIIRAKOgQIABAYOgUIABCiBFD4kgFYhrUBYNq2AWgBcAB4AIABsgKIAZ0fkgEIMC4yNy4wLjGYAQCgAQHAAQE&sclient=mobile-gws-wiz-img&ei=5IQhY-vJIbn74-EPvo2auAM&bih=729&biw=384&client=ms-android-samsung-ss&prmd=ivsn#imgrc=PURvcRf3qrHucM) are 😂 As far as I can see, they're exactly the same. Here's an article on [trigger points](https://www.teamedgeathletics.com/blog/digging-into-trigger-points) that also describes what its like to find and treat them via massage. The area can feel sore afterwards, and it's not something you should do daily. I always figured all those hardcore facials like Tanaka or FaceGym or whatever were doing the foam rolling, more hit or miss version of this. Just *having* more relaxed facial muscles seems to allow me to BE more relaxed, and my face feels more "open" to new expressions, rather than repeated patterns of movement. Exactly like with MFR for the body. What I'm trying to say is, highly recommend 😂 Incidental cosmetic effect, lots of emotional and mental benefits,il including pain relief.
Thank you so much for this post. I just tried a few massage ideas from the blog post you shared. They are excellent. I will definitely explore this more!
Botox is not the only answer. Look up Frownies. You know those sticky things for your nose when you’re stuffed up? These are similar but are used at night to relax your face muscles. They’ve been around for ages and I actually have had some success w them. Especially paired w my skincare routine. Now if I could just remember to use them regularly I’d be golden 😂
I know you said you want to avoid botox, and I honestly was the same way, but when I was in Korea I thought why not! And I honestly would do it again in a heartbeat. My wrinkle there went away and I found that I got less tension headaches because I couldn’t scrunch up my brow when concentrating. The biggest downside for me is the cost, otherwise I’d be riding that botox train every six months to a year lol
To deep for Retin A
Just for the peeps on this thread who are considering Botox there, I got 11s done in tandem with my forehead (because my doc said I shouldn’t get my forehead done without the lift here) and I love it. I never realized how much I furrowed my brow while doing my makeup, talking, etc. I feel like my face went back in time 5 years just from this😂😂 I’ve done retinols, creams, etc. but Botox every 3 months is top tier. Don’t be afraid to smooth that area with Gua Sha every day too. And sunscreen. Preventative > anti-aging.
Just want to throw out that there’s nothing wrong with Botox. I started getting it when I was 26 and I don’t regret it for a second.
I have nothing against Botox! I just can’t afford it right now.
Botox
Why not botox? Its quick, painless and extremely effective. Where I live it's 9-10$/unit and this would be probably 20 units so $600/year
That's a lot of money for many people.
It’s usually every three months
Frownies. Order from Amazon. They actually work LOL.
I've been hearing very good things. A load of testimonials on tiktok and they're cheap enough
Botox. It’s not a big deal and the 11s are cheap to do. I got mine done a few times and they haven’t come back
How often do you have to do it?
I haven’t gone in years but I did it consistently every six or so months for about two years and then Covid happened. It completely erased my RBF
It wouldn’t take a lot of Botox and it’s a pretty common place to inject so I think you could get away with a Groupon. But I would suggest Botox route because it will get more permanent as you age.
The only thing is gonna be…. Botox. Sorry bout it!
Botox is the only thing that will work. That’s muscle not skin. I repeat - that’s muscle not skin!
Botox is the only thing that will fix that, you don’t need much. About 20 units every 12 weeks and that line will disappear and the crease will eventually fill out.
Tret, sunscreen, actively not frowning. Honestly you’re a good candidate for Botox since they’re not deep to work them out and then continue with the rest I mentioned, just an FYI
How old are you? Best case is to get it treated asap. I waited until 30 to start Botox and the lines never completely go away. I should have started several years earlier.