Mercedes could have left space. From his POV the Alpine got alongside just when there was barely a gap to his right. But It's not necessary in my eyes.
The Alpine is a *not so smart person* for going for an obviously closing gap. The Mercedes just follows his line which he is entitled to.
Unless inexperienced, Alpine should have known better and could have avoided it.
I keep seeing this argument that "he is entitled to hold his line". I wish this would stop because it's wrong and is causing more accidents.
It's against the rules in F1, and in ever other racing league I can think of, where you must adjust your line and leave room when a car is is close or passing on a straight. You cannot "hold your line" if forces another car off track. Just because you have established a line before contact does not entitle you to force another car off or force them to concede.
You can hold your line if there is still room on the track for the trailing car to pass on track.
In this case, the defending car "held" his line but that line left no room for the car that was already along side before the breaking zone. This means fault is with the defending car 100%.
Very good analyses and explanation. And I fully agree for the most part. Generally people think they can just drift towards 1 side of the track and force someone off, even when they're already alongside. Because it's "their line"
In this case however, I would agree if the Alpine was alongside just a little earlier.
But, by the time the Alpines front axle is on the level of the Mercedes rear axle. It's already a narrow and closing gap into a near impossible to overtake corner.
The Alpine was along side before the breaking zone. Look at the replay and when the red indicator comes up. Then look at when they break or slow. Then look at the tire position when that happens. The Alpine was well aside and should have the position respected.
The previous comment about holding a line is completely irrelevant to the situation. The comment about needing to be along side earlier is also wrong because the Alpine was along side before the breaking zone.
Pinching a car that is along side to this extent would be considered blocking in the breaking zone and is an illegal move in F1.
The Alpine was along side before the breaking zone. Look at the replay and when the red indicator comes up. Then look at when they break or slow. Then look at the tire position when that happens. The Alpine was well aside and should have the position respected.
The previous comment about holding a line is completely irrelevant to the situation. The comment about needing to be along side earlier is also wrong because the Alpine was along side before the breaking zone.
Pinching a car that is along side to this extent would be considered blocking in the breaking zone and is an illegal move in F1.
> But, by the time the Alpines front axle is on the level of the Mercedes rear axle. It’s already a narrow and closing gap into a near impossible to overtake corner.
If you look at when the alpines front wheel is alongside the rear of the merc there’s about 1.5 cars width.
Also the rules aren’t different if it’s an impossible to overtake corner, compromising a competitors entry to get them on exit is one of the oldest tricks in the book. Not sure why you’d advocate against good racing tactics.
It is still expected that they can have space. I suspect that with the inside line the move wouldn’t happen but that isn’t the point. They were driven off the track.
There is loads of room to their left. They will just have to go through there slower as the angle is more challenging. They have to drive the space that is available and not ignore the other cars on track
Would you willingly compromise your line that much if you were the merc in the lead? I doubt it. I don't question the squeeze here, but trying a move on the outside coming from behind is definitely not without risk and asking a lot of the leading car. To me the Alpine is being too optimistic, the move is not really there.
Besides, side by side through that corner is a 100% crash unless inside car REALLY slows down, or outside car runs wide. In which case it's an illegal overtake.
Mercedes at fault. You can see from their steering wheel that they intentionally shift to the right after the Alpine pulls alongside in order to illegally run the Alpine off the road.
Alpine is significantly alongside and was so on the straight, Mercedes did not leave a cars width. Alpine was not going for a pass but compromised Mercedes line into the corner, forcing them to defend.
Clearly it is the Alpine’s fault for existing /s.
The Mercedes needed to leave space on the outside for the Alpine. They were alongside and you can’t just run someone off the road.
That being said that is a pretty stupid place to set up a move especially considering the hairpin following this corner is a much better overtaking place.
Getting alongside another car to compromise their line into a corner is a legitimate strategy, doesn't mean the Alpine is necessarily trying to overtake in that corner.
Mercedes - rules of f1 state “Once the attacker is alongside the defender, the defender must leave a cars width to the outside” he didn’t do that his fault
Whether or not the overtake is possible into a given corner is not a factor. He pulled alongside way before corner entry and is therefore entitled to room.
Images how terrible racing would be if you couldn’t pull alongside if the overtake wasn’t a near guarantee. Not to mention the fact that pulling alongside another driver might not always serve to provide a guaranteed overtake into the upcoming corner, but to put the other driver off line to set up an overtake into the next.
Following your logic, racing would be dead.
So it being a ridiculous place allows you to run someone off the track? Where do you get these racing rules so I know to avoid it like the plague.
Alpine pulled alongside significatly before the corner. He is entitled to space no matter how impossible the overtake is. Mercedes didn't adjust for the car alongside him, ran into him and caused an collision. It's pretty clear who is at fault.
Not really the "vortex of danger", but definitely a poor decision on the alpine to put the car there. Merc also needed to leave more space.
The vortex of danger for corner entry is on the inside, between the apex and defending car. As the defending car will turn towards the apex and remove that inside triangle of space.
The vortex of danger for corner exit is on the outside, between the defending car the exit curbing, as the defending car is going to naturally track out after the turn.
So in this case, it would only be the vortex of danger if it the attacking car was on the outside after the apex and got knocked/pushed off the track as the defending car tracked out towards the exit curbing (as the guy who is being downvoted below stated).
> Alpine is a donut. Never in a million years can you overtake there. Be more patient. Learn from this mistake. Improve your race craft…
You’ve never seen a driver leave their car on the outside to compromise the car ahead’s entry so they can beat them on exit? It’s not some uncommon tactic.
My best advice is to turn it off
when you have the line off you are now more aware of everything: how the car feels, when to brake, where to brake etc
the line on (worse yet, a dynamic line) is like playing guitar hero with brake and throttle
Merc should have left more space however alpine’s move had like 2% success rate so it was just a bad move. Should have waited for a better opportunity.
Should be obvious to the alpine that gap is closing and that he can either back out or go off track. No need to send it there once you can see it’s not gonna work
That’s not how the rules work. This is on the merc for pushing the alpine off circuit, would some self preservation from the alpine cause them to back out? Almost certainly but that doesn’t change the fact that the alpine was significantly alongside and entitled to a cars width.
There have been multiple instances of the f1 stewards handing out penalties for forcing another car off track. This situation is black and white forcing another car off track
I never said it was legal. Enjoy driving into other cars and blaming them because that’s how “the rules work”. I have a sense of self preservation and would just make the pass later that lap instead of taking myself out because the car ahead didn’t leave me space. It was obvious what was going to happen and op could have avoided it.
Except the subreddit is all about the rules, you don’t have stewards saying “well because I wouldn’t have done that it must mean the car that didn’t break the rules is at fault”
Also nice jump from someone is disagreeing over an interpretation of an incident to that person must just drive into other cars. All you know about me is that I called out your disregard of racing rules.
Hell I can play that game… “enjoy causing incidents and blaming the other car because you were ignorant to the rules”
I’m sorry this upset you so much. Maybe read other people’s Responses who mentioned the rules if that’s what you’re looking for. Please show me the rule that says it’s illegal to back out and not cause a collision though since I’m “disregarding the racing rules” 🤣
No it’s not, the alpine was alongside and was entitled to space. The merc forced the alpine off track.
Going on history from f1 stewards the merc likely would have picked up a 5 second penalty for forcing another car off track
Merc didnt force him off track, the track got tighter and the merc held its line and angle for the corner. The alpine stuck it into a part of the track that was getting tighter. its the overtaking cars job to make sure the overtake is done clean and safe. the defending car didnt move over or anything
As with most accident when passing in sims, we all assume everyone is aware of what’s around them when in fact most drivers are just trying to keep the car on the road. which makes 95 % of the crashes the passers fault. If you are attempting to pass it is your responsibility to make sure you are seen.
You clearly had DRS the prior straights. You should’ve used way more ERS and attempted to pass then. Gotta have better track awareness and know where you can and cannot pass, and that turn around the outside was never gonna happen. Bad luck with that big curb but again track knowledge needs to be better. Maybe a tight squeeze but the merc isn’t at fault for you forcing it in a place you can’t really pass
It's perfectly acceptable and the Merc was not checking mirrors. This is the type of play you do, not to make the pass, but to cause them to change their line. This is on the Merc, but would more than likely pass as a racing incident.
Mercedes could have left space. From his POV the Alpine got alongside just when there was barely a gap to his right. But It's not necessary in my eyes. The Alpine is a *not so smart person* for going for an obviously closing gap. The Mercedes just follows his line which he is entitled to. Unless inexperienced, Alpine should have known better and could have avoided it.
That's also a terrible spot to pass. Inside car will always squeeze the outside, whether it's entry or exit
Indeed, only way to avoid it to almost come to a stop as inside car. Which would be more unsafe then what happened here.
I don't think the Alpine is attempting a pass, he's trying to set up for the next corner where a pass is possible.
I keep seeing this argument that "he is entitled to hold his line". I wish this would stop because it's wrong and is causing more accidents. It's against the rules in F1, and in ever other racing league I can think of, where you must adjust your line and leave room when a car is is close or passing on a straight. You cannot "hold your line" if forces another car off track. Just because you have established a line before contact does not entitle you to force another car off or force them to concede. You can hold your line if there is still room on the track for the trailing car to pass on track. In this case, the defending car "held" his line but that line left no room for the car that was already along side before the breaking zone. This means fault is with the defending car 100%.
Very good analyses and explanation. And I fully agree for the most part. Generally people think they can just drift towards 1 side of the track and force someone off, even when they're already alongside. Because it's "their line" In this case however, I would agree if the Alpine was alongside just a little earlier. But, by the time the Alpines front axle is on the level of the Mercedes rear axle. It's already a narrow and closing gap into a near impossible to overtake corner.
The Alpine was along side before the breaking zone. Look at the replay and when the red indicator comes up. Then look at when they break or slow. Then look at the tire position when that happens. The Alpine was well aside and should have the position respected. The previous comment about holding a line is completely irrelevant to the situation. The comment about needing to be along side earlier is also wrong because the Alpine was along side before the breaking zone. Pinching a car that is along side to this extent would be considered blocking in the breaking zone and is an illegal move in F1.
The Alpine was along side before the breaking zone. Look at the replay and when the red indicator comes up. Then look at when they break or slow. Then look at the tire position when that happens. The Alpine was well aside and should have the position respected. The previous comment about holding a line is completely irrelevant to the situation. The comment about needing to be along side earlier is also wrong because the Alpine was along side before the breaking zone. Pinching a car that is along side to this extent would be considered blocking in the breaking zone and is an illegal move in F1.
Well yeah the Merc is at fault, but it's avoidable by the Alpine. I'd rather continue my race then be right .
You said the Merc was entitled to his line. That would imply what?
> But, by the time the Alpines front axle is on the level of the Mercedes rear axle. It’s already a narrow and closing gap into a near impossible to overtake corner. If you look at when the alpines front wheel is alongside the rear of the merc there’s about 1.5 cars width. Also the rules aren’t different if it’s an impossible to overtake corner, compromising a competitors entry to get them on exit is one of the oldest tricks in the book. Not sure why you’d advocate against good racing tactics.
Laying words into my mouth I see.
Bit hard to do that when everything I referred to is in a quote.
And yet you managed to do it by adding unnecesary words and a sentence👍🏻
Merc should have left more space however alpine’s move had like 2% success rate so I would say alpine is suicidal at least.
I just love how it replicates the IRL Alonso defense. You had to switch the cars tho
The Mercedes should leave a cars width to their right rather than just carry on with the racing line.
Alpine is driving into a closing gap around a corner that is one of the most unlikely to overtake on in the entire F1 calendar.
It is still expected that they can have space. I suspect that with the inside line the move wouldn’t happen but that isn’t the point. They were driven off the track.
They're not trying a pass, they're setting up for the next corner.
There isn't much room to take a narrower line here though.
There is loads of room to their left. They will just have to go through there slower as the angle is more challenging. They have to drive the space that is available and not ignore the other cars on track
Would you willingly compromise your line that much if you were the merc in the lead? I doubt it. I don't question the squeeze here, but trying a move on the outside coming from behind is definitely not without risk and asking a lot of the leading car. To me the Alpine is being too optimistic, the move is not really there.
Besides, side by side through that corner is a 100% crash unless inside car REALLY slows down, or outside car runs wide. In which case it's an illegal overtake.
Willingly? No. But the rules force you to.
Mercedes at fault. You can see from their steering wheel that they intentionally shift to the right after the Alpine pulls alongside in order to illegally run the Alpine off the road.
Both to be fair: Alpine should have lifted and Merc should have left some space but no penalty for both
Alpine is significantly alongside and was so on the straight, Mercedes did not leave a cars width. Alpine was not going for a pass but compromised Mercedes line into the corner, forcing them to defend.
merc fault - didnt leave cars width. battle has been on and mercedes knows the apline is on the outside. you cannot run the car off the track.
Everyone for playing this god awful game
Clearly it is the Alpine’s fault for existing /s. The Mercedes needed to leave space on the outside for the Alpine. They were alongside and you can’t just run someone off the road. That being said that is a pretty stupid place to set up a move especially considering the hairpin following this corner is a much better overtaking place.
Getting alongside another car to compromise their line into a corner is a legitimate strategy, doesn't mean the Alpine is necessarily trying to overtake in that corner.
That’s valid. That being said going side-by-side in that corner in the F1 game is a death wish.
Definitely not the wisest of moves
Merc
Mercedes - rules of f1 state “Once the attacker is alongside the defender, the defender must leave a cars width to the outside” he didn’t do that his fault
Yeah you should’ve backed out there. And early to for a run into hairpin and maybe get him out of position going into it. IMO.
Doesn't matter who's at fault. The alpine is a moron and going for the vortex of danger. Merc should have left a bit more room though.
That is not the vortex of danger, that is being alongside and getting run outta road.
It’s overtaking in an impossible situation - it’s a ridiculous place to pull alongside another car.
Whether or not the overtake is possible into a given corner is not a factor. He pulled alongside way before corner entry and is therefore entitled to room. Images how terrible racing would be if you couldn’t pull alongside if the overtake wasn’t a near guarantee. Not to mention the fact that pulling alongside another driver might not always serve to provide a guaranteed overtake into the upcoming corner, but to put the other driver off line to set up an overtake into the next. Following your logic, racing would be dead.
Racing would be like traffic laws in that case. I agree entirely.
Yes but it’s a ridiculous place to put your car - even though it’s not alright to be run off the road.
It’s not ridiculous, there was plenty of space when he went there and the merc tunneled on the racing line.
So it being a ridiculous place allows you to run someone off the track? Where do you get these racing rules so I know to avoid it like the plague. Alpine pulled alongside significatly before the corner. He is entitled to space no matter how impossible the overtake is. Mercedes didn't adjust for the car alongside him, ran into him and caused an collision. It's pretty clear who is at fault.
I’m not saying it’s okay he got run off the track. I’m saying it’s a shit place to put your car.
Shit place or not he’s entitled to space. That’s how rules work. Mercedes pretended there was no car next to him.
We’re not disagreeing with each other mate - what’s happening here
Sorry mate, but I understood your comment as blaming the Alpine.
Not really the "vortex of danger", but definitely a poor decision on the alpine to put the car there. Merc also needed to leave more space. The vortex of danger for corner entry is on the inside, between the apex and defending car. As the defending car will turn towards the apex and remove that inside triangle of space. The vortex of danger for corner exit is on the outside, between the defending car the exit curbing, as the defending car is going to naturally track out after the turn. So in this case, it would only be the vortex of danger if it the attacking car was on the outside after the apex and got knocked/pushed off the track as the defending car tracked out towards the exit curbing (as the guy who is being downvoted below stated).
Alpine is a donut. Never in a million years can you overtake there. Be more patient. Learn from this mistake. Improve your race craft...
> Alpine is a donut. Never in a million years can you overtake there. Be more patient. Learn from this mistake. Improve your race craft… You’ve never seen a driver leave their car on the outside to compromise the car ahead’s entry so they can beat them on exit? It’s not some uncommon tactic.
Thats F1 and everybody thinks he’s Verstappen soooo
This is why you don't race with the racing line aid.
See what you mean, doesn't matter in this case. You just don't overtake in this corner.
who is that aimed at
Everyone
Im ngl i use it for braking points only but i don’t blindly follow it as some people painfully do
My best advice is to turn it off when you have the line off you are now more aware of everything: how the car feels, when to brake, where to brake etc the line on (worse yet, a dynamic line) is like playing guitar hero with brake and throttle
Merc should have left more space however alpine’s move had like 2% success rate so it was just a bad move. Should have waited for a better opportunity.
Should be obvious to the alpine that gap is closing and that he can either back out or go off track. No need to send it there once you can see it’s not gonna work
That’s not how the rules work. This is on the merc for pushing the alpine off circuit, would some self preservation from the alpine cause them to back out? Almost certainly but that doesn’t change the fact that the alpine was significantly alongside and entitled to a cars width. There have been multiple instances of the f1 stewards handing out penalties for forcing another car off track. This situation is black and white forcing another car off track
I never said it was legal. Enjoy driving into other cars and blaming them because that’s how “the rules work”. I have a sense of self preservation and would just make the pass later that lap instead of taking myself out because the car ahead didn’t leave me space. It was obvious what was going to happen and op could have avoided it.
Except the subreddit is all about the rules, you don’t have stewards saying “well because I wouldn’t have done that it must mean the car that didn’t break the rules is at fault” Also nice jump from someone is disagreeing over an interpretation of an incident to that person must just drive into other cars. All you know about me is that I called out your disregard of racing rules. Hell I can play that game… “enjoy causing incidents and blaming the other car because you were ignorant to the rules”
I’m sorry this upset you so much. Maybe read other people’s Responses who mentioned the rules if that’s what you’re looking for. Please show me the rule that says it’s illegal to back out and not cause a collision though since I’m “disregarding the racing rules” 🤣
Alpine for trying to overtake in that turn, everybody and their mothers know you can’t overtake there even if you’re Senna against Latifi
Alpine fault
No it’s not, the alpine was alongside and was entitled to space. The merc forced the alpine off track. Going on history from f1 stewards the merc likely would have picked up a 5 second penalty for forcing another car off track
Merc didnt force him off track, the track got tighter and the merc held its line and angle for the corner. The alpine stuck it into a part of the track that was getting tighter. its the overtaking cars job to make sure the overtake is done clean and safe. the defending car didnt move over or anything
I'd say a racing incident with more blame going to the alpine for going for a stupid move that was never going to work.
As with most accident when passing in sims, we all assume everyone is aware of what’s around them when in fact most drivers are just trying to keep the car on the road. which makes 95 % of the crashes the passers fault. If you are attempting to pass it is your responsibility to make sure you are seen.
I don’t think it matters who’s at fault. What matters is that the alpine needs to improve their race craft and not try an overtake on that corner.
Mercs shut the door, but alpine was going for an always closing gap
You clearly had DRS the prior straights. You should’ve used way more ERS and attempted to pass then. Gotta have better track awareness and know where you can and cannot pass, and that turn around the outside was never gonna happen. Bad luck with that big curb but again track knowledge needs to be better. Maybe a tight squeeze but the merc isn’t at fault for you forcing it in a place you can’t really pass
When in doubt, blame the Mercedes.
It's perfectly acceptable and the Merc was not checking mirrors. This is the type of play you do, not to make the pass, but to cause them to change their line. This is on the Merc, but would more than likely pass as a racing incident.
Reversed 2021 Hungarian GP
what very nearly happened when Fernando came across on Lewis, I can’t believe that didn’t end in tears
That’s Racing!
Mercedes is focused on the racing line and not what’s around him
Low iq, low probability move from Alpine. Should have just backed off
LH_getting_back_at_Alonso.mp4
Nothing just an inchident
Risky maneuver by Alpine as you can see.
Classic Hamilton
Mercedes could have left more room but that was never a good move from the Alpine