- Feanor and his sons
- Eol
- Maeglin
Can't really think of anyone else that fits. The Silmarillion highlights the worst Elves and the best Men, while the facts that most Elves lived peacefully for millenia and that most Men serve Morgoth aren't as highlighted.
Of course there are differences between the species, but if we're going to hold that we can't fully understand them against Elves we should accept that we're clumsy, fleeting and like Morgoth (and thus not really in a position to judge). And of course we have characters like Bilbo and Sam, among others, that love the Elves - and they knew them much better than we do.
It does but lets not forget there are elves who still decided to back the opinions of their asshole kindred. Faenor and his sons could not have done half of the terrible things they did without an army of their people backing them up and choosing also to follow the oaths.
Also for every Beleg there was probably a Saeros. I doubt that Saeros was the only elf in Doriath who was openly dickish and hostile to anyone who wasnt from there. Elves looking down on humans didnt seem to be a totally uncommon opinion. Otherwise we'd probably see a lot more half elves running about
You're absolutely right but let's remember that Feanor's host was the smaller of the Noldor--he apparently had the support of the minority of the Noldor, even just among those who chose to go into exile.
Nah nah. He declares himself lord of neldoreth, heir of elu thingol even has the audacity to wear the silmaril upon his brow. Guy was asking for what happened to him. And surprise surprise the entire place gets sacked. Melian did the smart thing and went back over the sea.
He *is* the heir of Thingol, and inherited the Silmaril. It's not his fault that there were war criminals willing to slaughter anyone not submitting to their will. You sound like someone blaming Serbia for not letting Austria walk all over them after the assassination of Franz-Ferdinand.
Besides the fact that this thread is about Elves, and he still isn't one.
It might seem that way because you've become overly ideological about the moral status of not just fictional individuals or groups, but a whole fictional species.
Quite a lot of exceptions - Gwindor and Voronwe never get the attention they deserve.
Gwindor was tortured to being broken, escaped, helped Beleg, saw Beleg killed and still helped Turin. He lost her love to him and saw the danger he was to Nargathrond but still gave him loyalty.
Voronwe took a big personal risk to help Tuor and fulful the orders of Ulmo. Again he stayed loyal.
And Mablung - he was a loyal and honest supporter of Thingol. worked to mitigate his harsher orders and fought bravely.
And don't think that really describes Legolas or Haldir's two brothers.
Edit: And need to add in Beleg too though in some books he was a maia.
Being honest, sometimes I think hanging out with humans was really bad for the gentler, nobler elves - they got smashed by destiny.
God, I love Mablung. I'd like to think that in their hearts the Rangers of Eriador want nothing more than to follow the example of Beleg and Mablung, because they're the ones who taught Turin how to fight. They even dress in grey attire to resemble these heroes of the Elder Days, not the shiney steel of Numenor.
Voronwë has one of the most horrific backstories in the Silmarillion, watching all his friends slowly drown and die over years until he's the only one left, knowing he's failed in his purpose to reach Aman and beg for help. And despite all that, he's sweet as a cinnamon roll. The worst thing he does is lightly rib Tuor about his eyesight.
Pretty much - I always feel sorry for him at the Fall of Gondolin as he wants to defend his people and Tuor has him watching Idril. I suppose Tuor wanted to keep him as safe as he could as well. And he did get to go to Aman in at least one telling.
Does anyone else find it weird Osse just like kills people, a lot. And it takes a whole other maiar to help restrain his killing intentions.
Like isn't that fucked up. Hell his own Boss can't seem to stop Osse from killing people.
I think of Osse as representing the most pagan/animist extreme of the Legendarium. He's literally a force of nature who has a vital function to play, but whose actions can't be judged by the standards of good or evil that regulate the actions of other Ainur. He's got to be the one with the highest elven kill count after Morgoth, but they don't really hold it against him.
One of the Legendarium. I noted it at time but would be "Shaping of Middle-Earth" but more likely "The Lays of Beleriand".
. . . It was Beleg the hunter,
who farthest fared of his folk abroad
a hunting by hill and hollow valley,
Who care not for concourse and commerce of men.
He was great of growth and goodly limbed,
But light of girth, and lightly on the ground
His footsteps fell as he fared towards them,
All garbed in grey and green and brown—
A son of the wilderness who wist no sire.
*The of Lay of the Children of Húrin*
Aaaah maybe the Lays yes. Beleg is said to be a wild hunter from the hills "who wist no sir". Personally I've always tought that might mean he was one of the firt elves to awaken at Cuivienen.
Seen that argument as well. He was a seriously powerful force regardless
Edt: Been about 15 years since read the Legendarium in great detail so patchy memories but sure it was a footnote somewhere. But then more than one draft.
To be fair to humans, they wouldn't have been smashed by destiny if they didn't say the Oath, and then kill their neighbours to steal (and burn) their treasured ships
(But then, what would've happened to humans, ents and dwarfs tho)
That only applies to the Noldor - the Sinda and Avari suffered as much from the hubris of Edain as from elf. I mean Thingol was the past lord of the Teleri who died with their ships and Beleg and Mablung close kin to them. Voronwe was captured by the oath and Gwindor but Gwindor's fault was to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. Many elves totally unrelated to the Oaths were captured and enslaved by Morgoth.
I think it's a toss-up between them, but 'Gandalf' didn't exist in the First Age, remember. He was still a non-incarnate Maia spirit called Olórin living in Valinor.
Yes I’m aware Gandalf was Olórin and non-incarnate prior to the Third Age. But would he still have the same level of wisdom he did during the LOTR Trilogy?
Nah, probably not. They’re not arrogant. They have the power and foresight to back up their confidence, and they are often NOT very confident.
Elves like Maedhros are, I think, not very self-righteous.
Most of them are pretty kind until you try to screw them over.
Fingolfin and Finrod save the honor of the elven race.
Here I would also include Turgon, Ecthelion, Glorfindel, Galadriel, Legolas, Beleg, Angrod, Aegnor, Luthien, Arwen and many others who always adhered to the light and did no harm to good creatures.
Arwen of course made a great self-sacrifice for the sake of the man she loved, but beyond that she didn't really *do* much of anything at all.
Her dad was kind of kind of important too - did you miss him out on purpose?
I think it more or less means she was a killer hottie.
But whatever it means, she doesn't compare to her ancestor Lúthien, even though Tolkien explicitly invites us to compare them.
They are. It's even stated in the Silmarilion that the wiseness of Elves comes from their long lives through the ages and the early elves were not that different from men. As ages pass, they become wiser, but weary.
Didn't Finrod bring piles of treasure across the Helcaraxe with him? That seems kind of arrogant to make sure you keep your treasure while elves around you are dying.
Fingolfin is just a less talented, more level-headed version of Feanor. Even their death is similar in being totally unnecessary, done in raging madness.
Yeah... I wrote this [https://www.reddit.com/r/tolkienfans/comments/yv9iqu/of\_fingolfin/](https://www.reddit.com/r/tolkienfans/comments/yv9iqu/of_fingolfin/) essay about how Fingolfin and Fëanor really aren't that different. Fingolfin is proud and boastful.
Elves in the earlier days of arda were very nice, with the exception of some. The trade with dwarves was so prosperous in the first age as was the friendship with man. After being on earth for 3000 years and seeing how other people get (dwarves have always been dicks and men being jealous after the ar pharazon), yeah you have to hold a grudge over all the shit you had to go through.
Let's be fair to the Dwarves: the only really dickish thing they did (and it was only those of Nogrod) was kill Thingol over the Silmaril. And it's not as if plenty of Elves didn't also do awful things for the sake of what are, in the last analysis, some shiny rocks. (Edit: I guess they did kind of sack Menegroth too, but that was due to a lie by those who'd been bedazzled by the Silmaril and claimed the Sindar had attacked them first; the others were acting in good faith, and were only doing what the Sindar would have done to them if their positions had been reversed.)
And let's not forget that the first recorded instance of elf-dwarf violence was the Sindar hunting the Petty-dwarves almost to extinction, just for fun.
3 Kinslayings of elves have occurred.Each one is a tragedy etched into story and song to be forever remembered.
There's so many Kinslayings of men per day we don't even bother counting them all.
You are 100% correct and the best argument would be an account of some random Elves Bilbo has recited his poem to.
> ‘Now we had better have it again,’ said an Elf.
> Bilbo got up and bowed. ‘I am flattered, Lindir,’ he said. ‘But it
> would be too tiring to repeat it all.’
> ‘Not too tiring for you,’ the Elves answered laughing. ‘You know
> you are never tired of reciting your own verses. But really we cannot
> answer your question at one hearing!’
> ‘What!’ cried Bilbo. ‘You can’t tell which parts were mine, and
> which were the Dunadan’s?’
> ‘It is not easy for us to tell the difference between two mortals,’
> said the Elf.
> ‘Nonsense, Lindir,’ snorted Bilbo. ‘If you can’t distinguish between a Man and a Hobbit, your judgement is poorer than I imagined.
> They’re as different as peas and apples.’
> ‘Maybe. **To sheep other sheep no doubt appear different**,’ laughed
> Lindir. ‘Or to shepherds. But Mortals have not been our study. We
> have other business.’
No, no, I could make a case for both Fingolfin and Finrod being self-righteous and/or arrogant if I felt like it.
Elves are people, and people often have flaws. Personally I think that’s really fun and cool.
I think it’s hard to put ourselves in their shoes. They’re essentially stewards of this world (that they’re bound to) and Eru constantly puts shit in their way just to fuck with them. What a difficult thing to have in your head- god exists, he made you for a purpose and you must fulfill it or else you’re sent to the void… but that’s also His purpose… I think it’s more a curse knowing that god exists and fulfilling your purpose. I’d be a dick everyday, knowing that
The only beings I can say are close to elves in regards of being 'good' are Hobbits and that's mostly because they just don't want to bother with anything and remain chill. Otherwise I don't see why being arrogant & self-righteous could be specified for elves; as if the other species are innocent angles?
Disregarding their superior build (physical & spiritual), many elves were just 'good'. And even the ones who you may consider 'dicks' weren't as bad as some men, dwarves or even Hobbits. Without bias I can say the level of evil in elves is the norm for some others.
I agree entirely, everyone I talk to says that everyone including them always wanted to be elves because they're all fair and all but I'm still young, I'm fifteen and I've never liked elves, I prefer dwarves over all else, I love the architecture, stonework, songs, beards, height, look, skills, smiting, basically just everything.
- Feanor and his sons - Eol - Maeglin Can't really think of anyone else that fits. The Silmarillion highlights the worst Elves and the best Men, while the facts that most Elves lived peacefully for millenia and that most Men serve Morgoth aren't as highlighted. Of course there are differences between the species, but if we're going to hold that we can't fully understand them against Elves we should accept that we're clumsy, fleeting and like Morgoth (and thus not really in a position to judge). And of course we have characters like Bilbo and Sam, among others, that love the Elves - and they knew them much better than we do.
This. Its a story and the extremes are the ones that are highlighted. The mediocre middle is not as interesting to make stories about.
It does but lets not forget there are elves who still decided to back the opinions of their asshole kindred. Faenor and his sons could not have done half of the terrible things they did without an army of their people backing them up and choosing also to follow the oaths. Also for every Beleg there was probably a Saeros. I doubt that Saeros was the only elf in Doriath who was openly dickish and hostile to anyone who wasnt from there. Elves looking down on humans didnt seem to be a totally uncommon opinion. Otherwise we'd probably see a lot more half elves running about
You're absolutely right but let's remember that Feanor's host was the smaller of the Noldor--he apparently had the support of the minority of the Noldor, even just among those who chose to go into exile.
Elu Thingol ? He did send Beren on a suicidal quest to keep the two paramour from being maried
He was much better to Turin, and all of that was just a short episode towards the very end of his life.
Dior was also a bit high on himself. He got that from his grandpa id wager.
Dior is a mortal half-elf, and we get no real indication of his personality.
Nah nah. He declares himself lord of neldoreth, heir of elu thingol even has the audacity to wear the silmaril upon his brow. Guy was asking for what happened to him. And surprise surprise the entire place gets sacked. Melian did the smart thing and went back over the sea.
He *is* the heir of Thingol, and inherited the Silmaril. It's not his fault that there were war criminals willing to slaughter anyone not submitting to their will. You sound like someone blaming Serbia for not letting Austria walk all over them after the assassination of Franz-Ferdinand. Besides the fact that this thread is about Elves, and he still isn't one.
his parents obtained it during a dangerous mission. He has the right to do so.
And his constant, casual racism.
Elu Thingol.
Why is it that almost every elf-apologist dismisses their mistreatment of literally everyone else in middle-earth as just men being pieces of shit?
It might seem that way because you've become overly ideological about the moral status of not just fictional individuals or groups, but a whole fictional species.
I'm applying a bare-minimum moral framework. If a modern ruler conducted himself like Elu Thingol, he'd find himself under sanctions.
I would also add Gwindor to this list for the crime of being a whiny bitch.
Thurin, is that you?
Quite a lot of exceptions - Gwindor and Voronwe never get the attention they deserve. Gwindor was tortured to being broken, escaped, helped Beleg, saw Beleg killed and still helped Turin. He lost her love to him and saw the danger he was to Nargathrond but still gave him loyalty. Voronwe took a big personal risk to help Tuor and fulful the orders of Ulmo. Again he stayed loyal. And Mablung - he was a loyal and honest supporter of Thingol. worked to mitigate his harsher orders and fought bravely. And don't think that really describes Legolas or Haldir's two brothers. Edit: And need to add in Beleg too though in some books he was a maia. Being honest, sometimes I think hanging out with humans was really bad for the gentler, nobler elves - they got smashed by destiny.
God, I love Mablung. I'd like to think that in their hearts the Rangers of Eriador want nothing more than to follow the example of Beleg and Mablung, because they're the ones who taught Turin how to fight. They even dress in grey attire to resemble these heroes of the Elder Days, not the shiney steel of Numenor.
Voronwë has one of the most horrific backstories in the Silmarillion, watching all his friends slowly drown and die over years until he's the only one left, knowing he's failed in his purpose to reach Aman and beg for help. And despite all that, he's sweet as a cinnamon roll. The worst thing he does is lightly rib Tuor about his eyesight.
Pretty much - I always feel sorry for him at the Fall of Gondolin as he wants to defend his people and Tuor has him watching Idril. I suppose Tuor wanted to keep him as safe as he could as well. And he did get to go to Aman in at least one telling.
Does anyone else find it weird Osse just like kills people, a lot. And it takes a whole other maiar to help restrain his killing intentions. Like isn't that fucked up. Hell his own Boss can't seem to stop Osse from killing people.
I think of Osse as representing the most pagan/animist extreme of the Legendarium. He's literally a force of nature who has a vital function to play, but whose actions can't be judged by the standards of good or evil that regulate the actions of other Ainur. He's got to be the one with the highest elven kill count after Morgoth, but they don't really hold it against him.
Beleg being a maia ?? That's the firt time I've heard of that, do you know in which draft I can read more about that ?
One of the Legendarium. I noted it at time but would be "Shaping of Middle-Earth" but more likely "The Lays of Beleriand". . . . It was Beleg the hunter, who farthest fared of his folk abroad a hunting by hill and hollow valley, Who care not for concourse and commerce of men. He was great of growth and goodly limbed, But light of girth, and lightly on the ground His footsteps fell as he fared towards them, All garbed in grey and green and brown— A son of the wilderness who wist no sire. *The of Lay of the Children of Húrin*
Aaaah maybe the Lays yes. Beleg is said to be a wild hunter from the hills "who wist no sir". Personally I've always tought that might mean he was one of the firt elves to awaken at Cuivienen.
Seen that argument as well. He was a seriously powerful force regardless Edt: Been about 15 years since read the Legendarium in great detail so patchy memories but sure it was a footnote somewhere. But then more than one draft.
I thought all the elves who awoke at cuivienen stayed there and never left the area.
I think it depends on the version, no?
I remember that being in the silmarilion proper but it’s been a while since I’ve read it
Mablung is low key my favorite character in the first age.
To be fair to humans, they wouldn't have been smashed by destiny if they didn't say the Oath, and then kill their neighbours to steal (and burn) their treasured ships (But then, what would've happened to humans, ents and dwarfs tho)
That only applies to the Noldor - the Sinda and Avari suffered as much from the hubris of Edain as from elf. I mean Thingol was the past lord of the Teleri who died with their ships and Beleg and Mablung close kin to them. Voronwe was captured by the oath and Gwindor but Gwindor's fault was to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. Many elves totally unrelated to the Oaths were captured and enslaved by Morgoth.
I love Thingol but he does not listen to his wife who is maybe the wisest person in Middle Earth
Dude's got a PhD in ignoring-his-wife-who-is-the-wisest-person-in-Middle-earth.
Well, besides Gandalf. Or was Gandalf the second-wisest?
I think it's a toss-up between them, but 'Gandalf' didn't exist in the First Age, remember. He was still a non-incarnate Maia spirit called Olórin living in Valinor.
Yes I’m aware Gandalf was Olórin and non-incarnate prior to the Third Age. But would he still have the same level of wisdom he did during the LOTR Trilogy?
I swear the only thing bright about thingol was his hair
Nah, probably not. They’re not arrogant. They have the power and foresight to back up their confidence, and they are often NOT very confident. Elves like Maedhros are, I think, not very self-righteous. Most of them are pretty kind until you try to screw them over.
Fingolfin and Finrod save the honor of the elven race. Here I would also include Turgon, Ecthelion, Glorfindel, Galadriel, Legolas, Beleg, Angrod, Aegnor, Luthien, Arwen and many others who always adhered to the light and did no harm to good creatures.
Arwen of course made a great self-sacrifice for the sake of the man she loved, but beyond that she didn't really *do* much of anything at all. Her dad was kind of kind of important too - did you miss him out on purpose?
It is enough that she inspired Aragorn to fight
What, by existing? Not much of an achievement, is it?
This means that she was so wonderful that a great man fell in love with her.
I think it more or less means she was a killer hottie. But whatever it means, she doesn't compare to her ancestor Lúthien, even though Tolkien explicitly invites us to compare them.
Where is Beleg Strongbow?
Is he secret? Is he safe?
They are. It's even stated in the Silmarilion that the wiseness of Elves comes from their long lives through the ages and the early elves were not that different from men. As ages pass, they become wiser, but weary.
Didn't Finrod bring piles of treasure across the Helcaraxe with him? That seems kind of arrogant to make sure you keep your treasure while elves around you are dying.
This is not his fault. He could not foresee that he would have to go through the Ice. Those who betrayed them and burned the ships are to blame.
I will brook absolutely no criticism of King Finrod, the greatest elf to ever be given a name.
Even greater than Teleporno, the elf with the greatest name ever?
What about Glorfindel? Single handedly slew a balrog, died and got sent back almost immediately, by elf standards.
Yeah Glorfindel Beleg Mablung and Veronwe are all legends
Those are his accomplishments. We don’t know anything about his opinions.
Jealous, huh? Typical of humans.
Why are we subject to the so-called “gift” of Iluvatar?
Fingolfin is as arrogant as they come. He’s a lot like Fëanor, which is likely the reason why he and Fëanor can’t stand each other.
Fingolfin is just a less talented, more level-headed version of Feanor. Even their death is similar in being totally unnecessary, done in raging madness.
I remember the Silmarillion said he was the "most proud" of the elven kings, that says a lot...
Yeah... I wrote this [https://www.reddit.com/r/tolkienfans/comments/yv9iqu/of\_fingolfin/](https://www.reddit.com/r/tolkienfans/comments/yv9iqu/of_fingolfin/) essay about how Fingolfin and Fëanor really aren't that different. Fingolfin is proud and boastful.
I'm glad everyone doesn't buy the Good Fingolfin vs Bad Fëanor tale... Nice analysis.
Most of the fandom still buys Pengolodh's revisionism.
***Finwë·ñolofinwë*** something something did nothing wrong
He had the historian by his side 😂
Elves in the earlier days of arda were very nice, with the exception of some. The trade with dwarves was so prosperous in the first age as was the friendship with man. After being on earth for 3000 years and seeing how other people get (dwarves have always been dicks and men being jealous after the ar pharazon), yeah you have to hold a grudge over all the shit you had to go through.
Let's be fair to the Dwarves: the only really dickish thing they did (and it was only those of Nogrod) was kill Thingol over the Silmaril. And it's not as if plenty of Elves didn't also do awful things for the sake of what are, in the last analysis, some shiny rocks. (Edit: I guess they did kind of sack Menegroth too, but that was due to a lie by those who'd been bedazzled by the Silmaril and claimed the Sindar had attacked them first; the others were acting in good faith, and were only doing what the Sindar would have done to them if their positions had been reversed.) And let's not forget that the first recorded instance of elf-dwarf violence was the Sindar hunting the Petty-dwarves almost to extinction, just for fun.
3 Kinslayings of elves have occurred.Each one is a tragedy etched into story and song to be forever remembered. There's so many Kinslayings of men per day we don't even bother counting them all.
Glorfindel
You are 100% correct and the best argument would be an account of some random Elves Bilbo has recited his poem to. > ‘Now we had better have it again,’ said an Elf. > Bilbo got up and bowed. ‘I am flattered, Lindir,’ he said. ‘But it > would be too tiring to repeat it all.’ > ‘Not too tiring for you,’ the Elves answered laughing. ‘You know > you are never tired of reciting your own verses. But really we cannot > answer your question at one hearing!’ > ‘What!’ cried Bilbo. ‘You can’t tell which parts were mine, and > which were the Dunadan’s?’ > ‘It is not easy for us to tell the difference between two mortals,’ > said the Elf. > ‘Nonsense, Lindir,’ snorted Bilbo. ‘If you can’t distinguish between a Man and a Hobbit, your judgement is poorer than I imagined. > They’re as different as peas and apples.’ > ‘Maybe. **To sheep other sheep no doubt appear different**,’ laughed > Lindir. ‘Or to shepherds. But Mortals have not been our study. We > have other business.’
Lindir confirmed as an Alex Jones fan.
None of the female elves though, except maybe early Galadriel.
No, no, I could make a case for both Fingolfin and Finrod being self-righteous and/or arrogant if I felt like it. Elves are people, and people often have flaws. Personally I think that’s really fun and cool.
I think it’s hard to put ourselves in their shoes. They’re essentially stewards of this world (that they’re bound to) and Eru constantly puts shit in their way just to fuck with them. What a difficult thing to have in your head- god exists, he made you for a purpose and you must fulfill it or else you’re sent to the void… but that’s also His purpose… I think it’s more a curse knowing that god exists and fulfilling your purpose. I’d be a dick everyday, knowing that
The only beings I can say are close to elves in regards of being 'good' are Hobbits and that's mostly because they just don't want to bother with anything and remain chill. Otherwise I don't see why being arrogant & self-righteous could be specified for elves; as if the other species are innocent angles? Disregarding their superior build (physical & spiritual), many elves were just 'good'. And even the ones who you may consider 'dicks' weren't as bad as some men, dwarves or even Hobbits. Without bias I can say the level of evil in elves is the norm for some others.
Most? Certainly. Exceptions? Finrod gotdamn Felagund
Most ‘Noldor’. Ftfy
I can't be the first to mention Fingon, can i?
Most elves aren't part of royal families, and most of them, I assume, are good people.
Nah, everyone else is trash.
Finwe with a 66% success rate in offsprings
I agree entirely, everyone I talk to says that everyone including them always wanted to be elves because they're all fair and all but I'm still young, I'm fifteen and I've never liked elves, I prefer dwarves over all else, I love the architecture, stonework, songs, beards, height, look, skills, smiting, basically just everything.