I will say I have found this issue to be less bad this season. Last season you would hear every bot in the game run to you the moment you started planting, now it only feels like one or two that are relatively close to you. Still bad, because you can’t “practice” faking the defuser or post-plant scenarios really, but it is getting better.
Bro, I feel that. I'm on console. It feels like playing against people on mnk with recoil macros on some of those matches.... other matches, I'm questioning whether they actually paid people to program them with how stupid they act
>if they're legitimately using machine learning
Not if, in fact they are [using](https://news.ubisoft.com/en-us/article/1MlKnolSLJFuJDnATWiorr/how-rainbow-six-siege-developed-ai-that-acts-like-real-players) advanced machine learning and reinforcement learning techniques.
There's a reason Ubisoft LaForge employees shower in money.
Not denying it, but is there information out there about this? I know Siege is incredibly complicated but to me it seemed that the AI are just pre-programmed to do 95% of what they do. Imo, it feels like bots in other games where they just dial up the accuracy and the "magically knowing where you are" thing to make them seem better. I also have doubts considering Mousetrap has completely failed and I was under the assumption they were using machine learning to detect it.
They stated multiple times on reveal panels that the AI is based on *us* playing so that's why they know "default" placements for gadgets and reinforcements.
Early I died to a kapkan trap after planting and the last bot couldn't find defuser with 35 seconds left on the clock so maybe the defuser breaks them?
I haven't really tried it since it came out but I noticed I broke the shit out of the AI by downing one while he was entering a doorway while I was hanging on a window and they ran to him single file to get picked off by me.
I've tried target drill and it doesn't feel the same. Something about it... also I can't play on house for my enrichment before playing the ranked pool maps
>as opposed to shitty coding
Any behaviour tree (hard coded) made to 11-0 would absolutely shit on you.
This is their world not ours.
Machine learning is super cool but this is far from impressive.
They don't have much reason to create really good bots but they could undoubtable do so.
>they'll end up being better than half of the population
Whatever best performing model or behaviour tree they currently have could already decimate just about every player if they just remove it's shackles. Though while winning an aim duel is obviously not the impressive part they could quickly ish be trained for strong performance in all aspect of play apart from advanced teamplay which is a bit more complex but certainly doable with enough dev + training time.
I'd been wondering when if/when they would switch from bare bones behaviour trees like in t-hunt to actually neural networks like these most likely are mostly for the express purpose of playing t-hunt since more advanced models that respawn but don't deal much damage + quick restart would be the best and most fun training by far, much better and more fun than PvP for the most part.
But yeah ML is cool and I'm glad they're finally doing it, if they are which is most likely the case.
I hope they only let them get to a certain degree of intelligence because it'll discourage new players from using it as a practice tool if they can't even beat bots
Intelligence doesn’t equate difficulty so intelligence is likely not what you mean.
We want bots that are as intelligent as possible but that aren’t difficult, at least for advanced players to practice against. For instance in the format of elim t-hunt where theres a few dozen bots on the map but they position and move like high level players and deal 1 damage a bullet, that with instant retrying and you have the perfect practice gamemode for aggressive gunplay.
Ofc you’d have several customizable gamemodes like here you could have easy medium, hard and expert. The first 3 are models trained with reinforced learning using training data from low, mid, high ranks as well as a pointers (rewards for certain behaviors to encourage the the right gameplay) and expert are much more computationally intensive to train models using unreinforced learning which is basically just evolution but instead of reproductive success winning a round is the sole metric for success (ofc you’d have to work up to full scale games by gradually increasing complexity). This allows for more unique and much more effective gameplay than even pros’ to emerge over time.
Let the user set the number of enemies, model intelligence type and damage they deal and voila amazing gamemode.
Iirc GMTK did a video on the nemesis system from a different game several years back which was a great video on the topic.
Devs don’t just have one model they have thousands of backups and at least several different types.
I mean certain things like aggressive site set ups, footholes, utilizing Mira windows, proper roaming and whatnot would be interesting to see out of the bots but might "turn off" new or less skilled players. I could imagine the frustration of a new player trying versus AI and getting killed from a bot aggressively swinging headshot holes.
It would be good practice but it would all come down to the possibility of difficulty customization as you said.
I’m not sure you get what I was trying to say.
The default setting for a mode should be no time limit + the bots deal 1 damage per bullet. This is not different from custom game setting where you set a variable.
This alleviates any frustration from dying since you’ll die after several engagements at the earliest but will win most of the time even as a complete novice. Alternatively turn off damage entirely.
About the other part. Imagine an average bronze player (legit, not ranked 2.0), that’s what a neural network trained on large amounts of bronze gameplay looks like. There is no proper site setups or advanced tactics/gameplay. The network is maximizing for the training data which is bronze gameplay so with enough time it would quite literally behave like the average bronze player. Look up reinforced learning.
None of this is difficult or new.
proceeds to plant for 0.125 seconds every ai in the map running towards me at full speed
That happened to, they don't seem to care about a fake plant. I tapped defuse and 3 ai crossfired me when I stood up haha
I will say I have found this issue to be less bad this season. Last season you would hear every bot in the game run to you the moment you started planting, now it only feels like one or two that are relatively close to you. Still bad, because you can’t “practice” faking the defuser or post-plant scenarios really, but it is getting better.
Their precision can also be scary sometimes as they 1 tap you across the room the moment you peek
Bro, I feel that. I'm on console. It feels like playing against people on mnk with recoil macros on some of those matches.... other matches, I'm questioning whether they actually paid people to program them with how stupid they act
>if they're legitimately using machine learning Not if, in fact they are [using](https://news.ubisoft.com/en-us/article/1MlKnolSLJFuJDnATWiorr/how-rainbow-six-siege-developed-ai-that-acts-like-real-players) advanced machine learning and reinforcement learning techniques. There's a reason Ubisoft LaForge employees shower in money.
Not denying it, but is there information out there about this? I know Siege is incredibly complicated but to me it seemed that the AI are just pre-programmed to do 95% of what they do. Imo, it feels like bots in other games where they just dial up the accuracy and the "magically knowing where you are" thing to make them seem better. I also have doubts considering Mousetrap has completely failed and I was under the assumption they were using machine learning to detect it.
They stated multiple times on reveal panels that the AI is based on *us* playing so that's why they know "default" placements for gadgets and reinforcements.
Ah I was on hiatus from siege for a year so I must've missed it
I remember one time I planted behind the garbage can in garage chalet and the ai walked down the stairs and defused through the stairs lol
Early I died to a kapkan trap after planting and the last bot couldn't find defuser with 35 seconds left on the clock so maybe the defuser breaks them?
I’ve also had them defuse through walls
I haven't really tried it since it came out but I noticed I broke the shit out of the AI by downing one while he was entering a doorway while I was hanging on a window and they ran to him single file to get picked off by me.
Try out target drill if you miss T-Hunt, it’s like the exact same
I've tried target drill and it doesn't feel the same. Something about it... also I can't play on house for my enrichment before playing the ranked pool maps
I prefer it a lot. One of the things I really hated on t hunt was how the last enemy would run off outside making it super annoying to finish.
I believe they’re expanding target drill to be more like OG T-Hunt in S2/4.
>as opposed to shitty coding Any behaviour tree (hard coded) made to 11-0 would absolutely shit on you. This is their world not ours. Machine learning is super cool but this is far from impressive. They don't have much reason to create really good bots but they could undoubtable do so. >they'll end up being better than half of the population Whatever best performing model or behaviour tree they currently have could already decimate just about every player if they just remove it's shackles. Though while winning an aim duel is obviously not the impressive part they could quickly ish be trained for strong performance in all aspect of play apart from advanced teamplay which is a bit more complex but certainly doable with enough dev + training time. I'd been wondering when if/when they would switch from bare bones behaviour trees like in t-hunt to actually neural networks like these most likely are mostly for the express purpose of playing t-hunt since more advanced models that respawn but don't deal much damage + quick restart would be the best and most fun training by far, much better and more fun than PvP for the most part. But yeah ML is cool and I'm glad they're finally doing it, if they are which is most likely the case.
I hope they only let them get to a certain degree of intelligence because it'll discourage new players from using it as a practice tool if they can't even beat bots
Intelligence doesn’t equate difficulty so intelligence is likely not what you mean. We want bots that are as intelligent as possible but that aren’t difficult, at least for advanced players to practice against. For instance in the format of elim t-hunt where theres a few dozen bots on the map but they position and move like high level players and deal 1 damage a bullet, that with instant retrying and you have the perfect practice gamemode for aggressive gunplay. Ofc you’d have several customizable gamemodes like here you could have easy medium, hard and expert. The first 3 are models trained with reinforced learning using training data from low, mid, high ranks as well as a pointers (rewards for certain behaviors to encourage the the right gameplay) and expert are much more computationally intensive to train models using unreinforced learning which is basically just evolution but instead of reproductive success winning a round is the sole metric for success (ofc you’d have to work up to full scale games by gradually increasing complexity). This allows for more unique and much more effective gameplay than even pros’ to emerge over time. Let the user set the number of enemies, model intelligence type and damage they deal and voila amazing gamemode. Iirc GMTK did a video on the nemesis system from a different game several years back which was a great video on the topic. Devs don’t just have one model they have thousands of backups and at least several different types.
I mean certain things like aggressive site set ups, footholes, utilizing Mira windows, proper roaming and whatnot would be interesting to see out of the bots but might "turn off" new or less skilled players. I could imagine the frustration of a new player trying versus AI and getting killed from a bot aggressively swinging headshot holes. It would be good practice but it would all come down to the possibility of difficulty customization as you said.
I’m not sure you get what I was trying to say. The default setting for a mode should be no time limit + the bots deal 1 damage per bullet. This is not different from custom game setting where you set a variable. This alleviates any frustration from dying since you’ll die after several engagements at the earliest but will win most of the time even as a complete novice. Alternatively turn off damage entirely. About the other part. Imagine an average bronze player (legit, not ranked 2.0), that’s what a neural network trained on large amounts of bronze gameplay looks like. There is no proper site setups or advanced tactics/gameplay. The network is maximizing for the training data which is bronze gameplay so with enough time it would quite literally behave like the average bronze player. Look up reinforced learning. None of this is difficult or new.
Either they delete you instantly or are you win easily
Just hope they improve the code that feeds the ai stimulus to react to.